What is your reaction when you see this? Are they really OP?

Water isn't really OP except for some combinations.
Steel is only OP defensively.
Fairy is just fucking retarded.

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>>32796063
>S-steel and fairy aren't broken, they are just... balancing dragons.

>>32796063
Steel needs a nerf first. Then Fairy. Then Water.

>>32796063
>water
>op

>>32796063
Water doesn't especially needs a nerf but dear god, stop adding new water pokémon gamefreaks !

>>32796063
Steel is fine as a "defensively optimized" type, just cut back on the things it's SE against. Water is perfectly fine. Fairy was a mistake.

>>32796076
>Steel is only OP defensively.
Considering how retarded offensive mons are nowadays, I'm really glad that steel is still a reliable defensive type.

>>32796063
The arent OP but they are undoubtedly the best

I also think Flying would be up there if SR didnt exist

>>32796063
There are too many water pokemon and with quantity, you'll inevitably get quality.

>>32796123
Steel is fine offensively. It's good against Fairy, and that's all it needs.

The problem is that it resists fucking everything. Get rid of its resistances to Psychic and Grass or something.

Fairy can afford to stop resisting Bug, too.

>>32796063
Steel is fairly balanced from gen 6 onwards
Fairy is insanely OP
Water isn't OP by type matchups alone but every Water mon getting Ice Beam fucks up the balance hugely

>>32796063
None of them are OP. Its usually a combination of base stat total, movepool and ability that make people think they are OP. The closest that comes to being OP would be Steel, but there still is a ton of shitty Steel types. If Fairy typing was as OP as Fightingfags claim it is, then every fairy type would be OU or Uber, which isn't the case.

>>32796063
I feel neutral. The types are OP on paper, but the pokemon themselves need to rely on other key things to be good as well. There are plenty of fairy/steel/water shitmons because they have bad stats/movepools/abilities. The fact that stuff like the Tapus got good typings on top of great abilities and stats is dumb, yeah. Fairy should lose the bug resist tbqh.

>>32796171
>>32796160
Stay in denial, steelfags. 10 resists and 1 immunity for 3 weaknesses is clearly broken.

>>32796141
I can understand removing Steel's resistance to Psychic. Probably also Dark.

Fairy somewhat is. Almost any Pokemon is automatically better just by slapping it on.

>>32796229
It's not OP when most steels have no offensive presence, let alone reliable recovery. Like I said, you're mistaking a combinations of stats, movepool, and ability for being OP.

Steel really needs to lose a resistance or two.
Fairy needs to have one more type resist it, like Grass or Psychic.
Water isn't broken by any means, only Scald is.

>>32796241
>when most steels have no offensive presence
This isn't Gen 3 anymore buddy.

The absurd amount of water type pokemon and the fact that of all them learn ice beam is not fair for grass types. Water should be weak to Poison.

Steel type is insane defensively but they lack offensive presence, so it is more or less balanced. Steel should be weak to Electric.

Fairy is so good right now, it completely put ice type to rest, there were a lot more ways to introduce a new type. Fairy should be weak to Psychic.

>>32796283
>they lack offensive presence
That's strait up wrong

>>32796160
>Steel is fairly balanced from gen 6 onwards
No it's not. There are more steels in OU than any other type. The rise of Fairy pushed Steel over the edge. It was balanced before, but now it's just OP.

>>32796241
>no offensive presence
Scizor, Metagross, Magearna, Mawile, Bisharp etc.
>reliable recovery
They dont need to recover anything when you literally can't touch it and there are a ton of steels which have recovery moves.

>>32796301
>It was balanced before
lol

>>32796281
>>32796304
>he's mistaking Heatran and Scizor for the typical steel type
>11 types somehow equals to the entire steel typing to have offensive presence

stop.

>there are a ton of steels which have recovery moves
and only a few have RELIABLE recovery. IF you want to account for recovery, literally every type in the game has recovery due to rest. Rest isn't reliable for 95% of users.

What makes steel op?

>>32796343
>he's mistaking Heatran and Scizor for the typical steel type
Metagross, Jirachi, Lucario, Magnezone. Also Excadrill, Bisharp, Escavalier, Klinklang and Durant in Unova, the same region whose only newly introduced nonlegendary defensive Steel type was Ferrothorn.

>>32796367
Ten fucking resistances + Poison immunity while no longer being shit offensively from typechart's perspective.

>steel is bad offensively!

get with the times, grandpa. Steel is actually great offensively now because of fairies. You'd think only having one common SE target would be limiting, but it's not simply because fairies are that broken,

>>32796430
Not to mention that steel has better offense than poison, the other fairy killer. The poison types got a miniscule buff when compared to steel types in 6th gen, even after the loss of dark and ghost resistances.

>>32796232
Steel hasn't resisted ghost or dark since gen 5, I think

Here's a breakdown of all Steel types by their gen of introduction and their evolution in later gens, extra emphasis on their Steel STAB:

GEN 2
>Forretress: le hazards man
>Magneton -> Magnezone: Electric with Steel for extra resistances, dedicated Forre/Skarm/etc remover since Gen 3; uses Flash Cannon since Gen 4 solely because of shallow movepool, but it lets it pressure Fairies since Gen 6
>Scizor: a literal nobody until Gen 4 gave it Bullet Punch and U-Turn, making it a great pivot, revenge killer and sweeper; Technician Bullet Punch is its main niche
>Skarmory: the pinnacle of physical walls; used to have a Flying move as its sole attack, but sometimes uses Iron Head from Gen 6 onward to better check certain Fairies
>Steelix: a physically defensive Ground type with Steel only for extra resistances, until better moves like Gyro Ball and Heavy Slam gave it an alternative for Rock to couple with Ground

GEN 3
>Aggron: shit excuse of a tank; functions mostly as a Rock type offensively with extra Steel type; Heavy Slam is sometimes used as an option where EdgeQuake spam would fail; Mega repurposed as a monoSteel physical wall
>Jirachi: bulky Psychic sweeper with Steel for extra resistances in Gen 3, Serene Grace Iron Head outskiller (and more legitimate pivot and/or revenge killer functions) since Gen 4 with a rare special sweeping set that usually chooses between Psychic and Flash Cannon as a singular STAB move
>Mawile: a shitmon with broken ass Mega; Iron Head frequently used in Ubers to kill Xerneas, but never in OU where it needs Dark/Fire/Electric coverage for various Fairy resists
>Metagross: tank with potential of Agility sweeping; usually a toss up between Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt as main STAB options, Bullet Punch is also frequently picked for priority; Mega is faster and even stronger
>Registeel: the least bad Regi

>>32796063
>Are they really OP?
Yes.

>Fairy
Too few weaknesses(Poison is too cucked),Dragon Imunity is too much,1/2 resist would be enough.

>Steel
Too many resists.Also got 2 buffs from fairies.The first is that it hits them SE,the second is that fairies neutered fighting.

>Water
Too few weaknesses.It gets great coverage by default(of the 109 pokes that resist Water/Ice only shedinja isn't water type).The type that was supposed to take them out is neutered because of that.

>ghost has 2 weaknesses one being itself
>fairy has 2 weaknesses
>ghost has TWO immunities
>fairy has one to a typing that was only resisted by a single type
>ghost only resisted by ONE type while not affecting another
>fairy resisted by three
>ghost types cannot be trapped in any way
>everyone's mad at Clefable but not the less detailed purple blob
Ghostfags will defended

>>32796662
GEN 4
>Arceus-Steel: really versatile, always a bitch to take down
>Bastiodon: a complete joke of a passive piece of shit
>Bronzong: the above done right
>Dialga: Ubers tank with great defensive dual typing; had no reason to run any Steel attacks until Xerneas popped up in Gen 6
>Empoleon: bulky water with Steel for extra resistances; has little reason to run any Steel attacks even nowadays
>Heatran: a Fire tank with one of the three secondary types that let it perform its role since introduction of sneaky pebbles, insanely well at that; almost never wants to run Flash Cannon, unless it really needs to smack a specific Fairy
>Lucario: a Fighting sweeper/breaker with Steel solely for extra resistances, until Gen 6 where Iron Tail is actually needed for Fairy skullfucking and neutral STAB coverage
>Probopass: a better Bastiodon, but not that much
>Wormadam-Trash

GEN 5
>Bisharp: a Dark breaker/sweeper/trapper with Steel mostly for extra resistances - it usually preferred to run Low Kick instead of Iron Head back in Gen 5, something completely unheard of nowadays - Steel/Dark is incredibly hard to wall with Steel losing its Dark resistance
>Cobalion: a bulky spin on Lucario
>Durant: no adequate coverage, and be thankful for that - this thing is terrifying to face in lower tiers if you don't resist its Bug/Steel dual STAB
>Escavalier: discount Scizor without all the things that make it Scizor
>Excadrill: powerful Sand sweeper; Iron Head is necessary for strong neutral coverage with Earthquake - Rock Slide and X-Scissor don't cut it alone
>Ferrothorn: a wall that stops and harasses Rain offense, passive Ground types and assorted shit that can't break it that quickly
>Genesect: #1 example how fundamentally broken a strong STAB U-Turn + high speed + SR neutrality + wide coverage is; never uses Iron Head unless it's banded or needs to skullfuck a Fairy
>Klinklang: a Steel variation of a "dragon" dancer, except with no fucking moves other than its unique STAB

>>32796063
Not really aside from Fairy. If I had to nerf them I'd say these.
>Steel loses its resistance to Psychic
>Fairy becomes weak to Ice and loses its resistance to Bug
>Water types no longer can learn Ice Beam/Blizzard aside from Water/Ice types
All I gotta say.

>>32796301
>t angry bug fag

>>32796758
consider this: fighting was still considered OP in-spite of ghost

types people bitch about being broken but it works on my machine

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>Fairy directly buffs steel offensively and defensively
>fairy kicks fighting types out of higher tiers
>steel effectively loses one of its weaknesses because fighting types are gone
>fair checks dark types
>one of the types that could hit steel for neutral is now more scarce because of fairy.
>in-spite of fairy being weak to steel, its still one of the most dominant types, after water and steel, flying and ground
nice balance attempt gf

>>32796063
I don't really mind Steel. If you aren't carrying Fire or Ground moves or at least Electric/Water then you deserve to get walled.

>>32796914
I don't really mind fairy if you aren't carrying Poison or Steel moves or at least Steel/Fire then you deserve to get walled.

>>32796662
>>32796818
GEN 6
>Aegislash: when a Fighting type wants to smack your SkarmTran core, this guy comes out and says "lolnope"; says the same thing to half of the meta for that matter; doesn't use Steel attacks unless needing to smack a Fairy
>Klefki: Forretress + Prankster

GEN 7
>Celesteela: Skarmory ~Ferrothorn Edition~
>Alolan Dugtrio: dude shitmon lmao
>Kartana: needs both STABs + Sacred Sword because of lack of options, and its only Steel STAB is weak as fuck, but still hits neutral targets hard as hell
>Magearna: tank, pivot, speed setup sweeper, Trick Roomer; versatile as fuck
>Sandslash-Alola: Hail sweeper; Steel doesn't help it that much, but at least it has some resistances and SR neutrality and it can't run anything else anyway
>Silvally-Steel: dude shitmon lmao
>Solgaleo: like Dialga but a bit different
>Togedemaru: dude shitmon lmao

Overall:
>37 fully evolved/legendary Steel types total
>14 usually used for defensive purposes
>14 usually used for offensive purposes
>23 total with significant degree of offensive presence (more or less, depends on your assumed requirement to be considered directly threatening)
>5 of them prefer not running a Steel STAB, relying on their other STAB for netural damage + coverage for things that resist it
>2 (Magnezone and Kartana) only run Steel STAB because they have nothing better to use
>2 run unique, "gimmicky" Steel STABs (Scizor's Bullet Punch, Jirachi's Iron Head)

Steel may be lackluster offensively and the good offensive mons always pair with with another, better offensive STAB, but it's by no means crippling and all the sweet resistances that come with Steel typing are really great, making Steel/X attackers very versatile.

>>32796860
Consider this.
Gengar was OU for 3 generations with no decent STAB.
Ghost even got a buff by steel losing its resitance.
Ghost as a typing is amazing, yet everyone cries about Water and Fairy.

What would be OP?

>>32796063

If Steel didn't have as many resistances as it does, there'd be no reason to ever use fire Pokemon/moves. There's barely any grass Pokemon that ice coverage doesn't take care of and ice types themselves aren't exactly a threat. Instead have more things resist it (fighting, ground).
Water is fine. It'd be even better if every water type that didn't have ice type lost Ice Beam. Only Normal types and Ice Types should have ice coverage. That'd knock them down a peg and make ice types slightly more usable.
Fairy is stupid. I hope the honeymoon period with it and Gamefreak will be over soon so it can be nerfed like (some) megas were.

>>32797094
consider this: gengar is really good and doesn't have any other ghost type that can compete with what it does.

>>32796662
>>32796818
>>32796999
What a giant shitpost. You clearly arent proficient at any of these metas nor have a clue of what the hell you're talking about.

for fairy honestly it should stop resisting bug (poor typing has it bad already) and should start being weak to fire

the fact it's only weak to otherwise poor offensive types is just downright stupid
other types with few weaknesses have at least 1 premium offensive type among those weaknesses (poison and electric are weak to ground, water is weak to electric, normal to fighting)

the only type that somewhat compares with fairy defensively is ghost and only due to fairy downgrading dark as a premium offensive type
they also share immunity to good types

but when it comes to resistances, fairy with it's resistance to fighting and dark is easily superior to ghosts's resistance to poison (both share a bug resistance)

Magnezone is used solely to remove a handful of steel types and is OU for life. That tells you the power of steel type.

Fairy type alone turned Clefable from NU to the best mon in gen 6.

Water is just a good all around type.

>>32797646
Fire doesn't need an offensive buff. You'll just end up nerfing bug.

There's only one type that would make sense to be strong against fairy it's grass. Think about it, fairies get their powers from nature (which is basically the grass type, as nature takes form in trees and plants)

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I think water should be weak to poison desu, mainly due to the fact water as a defensive and a offensive presence has complete control over its two weaknesses E.G. Every water under the sun has ice beam, and a number of relevant water types have a secondary ground typing or have access to earthquake to deal with electric types, giving it an advantage no other type can really abuse in a similar fashion.

This, compounded with the number of positive effects held by rain for a number of waters supporters or other coverage moves allows for a control that water can use on the offensive and defensive.

I'd suggest giving water a poison weakness due to fitting with the idea of pollutants (such as oil) being damaging to the coastal environment, but also meaning that an extra coverage option is availabe that water may find unconventional in being able to fully deflect like it usually can, though this is still kept in check by the number of psychic/ground water types, though now it cannot be as defensively controlling as before.

> Poison is now super effective against water types
>Normal is now Super effective against Fairy
>Steel no longer resists Rock/Ice

Did I balance things out /vp/?

>>32796758
>>32796860
consider this, ghost is weak to one of the most common coverage move - dark, which has utility moves like pursuit and knock off.

>>32797094
>>32797334
additionally this, there's practically two great ghost types being gengar himself and chandelure, most others are UU at best and below.

>>32797785
Ice just needs better resists.
I still want that ground and flying resist. Key offensive types, no other type resists both and they're already both weak to ice.

>>32796416
>Klinklang has offensive presence

what do you gain by posting this

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/thread
>>32796160
>>32796188
>>32796241

shitposters who contributed nothing
>>32796229
>>32796106
>>32796281
>>32796662
>>32796669
>>32796818
>>32796999

Nothing about steel is OP. you 1000MMR shitheads needs to learn how to make a decent core instead of running 6 clefables and an ice type then crying when you get meteor mash/flash cannon/ hidden power fire'd to death
Now fuck off >>32797853

>>32797785
No you utter retard.
Why do people think Normal being SE on anything is a good idea? /vp/ is fucking terrible at pokemon. Let me break this down for you.

>fairy introduced to nerf dragon
>dragons who don't have access often to shit like meteor mash and gunk shot
>dragons who all have access to a 102 power normal move called Return
>fairies have low physical defense
>the meta goes back to being 4drag2mag:Return Edition

retard.
Steel shouldn't resist Ice, though, that makes no sense.

>>32797949
>dragons already have access to sludge bomb, sludge wave, poison jab, iron tail, iron head and flash cannon

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>>32797939
>6 clefables and an ice type

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>>32797949
>Steel shouldn't resist Ice, though, that makes no sense.
Fire is the one who shouldn't resist ice.

>>32798002
>you
>having reading comprehension

Stop being a dumbass. I explicitly said
>fairies have low physical defense
Sludge bomb and wave and flash cannon are irrelevant to most fairies without STAB backing it up. Dialga's the only steel/dragon, Dragalge the only poison/dragon. Much less common.

Iron tail has 75% accuracy, Poison jab is countered by Klefki and Mawile and Magearna.

>>32798057
Fire doesn't need a nerf any more than ice does.

>>32796063
>Steel
Lando-T of types

>Fairy
Balanced by the fact that most Fairy-types are shitmon. Basically Ghost 2.0

>Water
Only broken because they all come prepackaged with Ice Beam and Scald.

let's get on the same page on one thing, to agree on that under no circumstance should ice be buffed offensively because the only one that truly wins in that department is water.

A mermaid with a artificial tail

>>32797939
Go home steelfag

>>32796446
Gen 6.
>>32796232
No, you keep Steel's resist to Psychic. It was created to fuck Psychic-types in the first place.

Steel was nerfed and lost the resistance to ghost and dark, and you babies can't play around them? Who the fuck makes a competitive team without a solid earthquake user? Fuck look at any VGC team and you'll see Arcanine and Krookodile, omnipresent for a good reason.

>>32797763
The only relevant Water/Ground-type is Swampert.

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>>32798284
Steel should be weak to Psychic, Psychic hasn't been strong in a while anyways

>>32798284
no that was dark
steel was made to fuck normal/ice
both of which were stupid ideas because the only reason those types were good in the first place was access to good moves (blizzard, body slam, psychic) while other types literally had nothing (ie ghost, dragon, bug)

>>32798339
a relevant water/ground would be checked by relevant poisons.
irrelevant water/grounds would be checked by irrelevant poisons.

>>32796076
>Steel is only OP defensively.
It has been said time and time again, that it was okay before Gen 6.

Then the Fairy Nation attacked, it gained the most precious SE so it's now good offensively too.

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>>32796141
>>32796232
>>32798401
>/vp/ whines 24/7 about Tapu Lele
>/vp/ also advocates removing Steel's resistance to Psychic

>>32800776
Lele getting banned is the whole point, dumb frenchposter.

I think a big reason water is so strong is because grass is so weak. If grass got a weakness removed, offensive grass types would be more viable and STAB grass moves would be more of a threat to water types. Water's not really overpowered, just more consistently good than most other types. An indirect nerf is definitely the way to go for that.

I feel like steel is strong right now because it counters fairies so hard. fix fairies and steel will probably be pretty well off.

of course if you give fairies a new weakness it just overbuffs the shit out of whatever you made it weak to if it has a significant offensive presence, see steel.

>>32796758
Ghost checks out by having no physical presence. The one good physical ghost got shadow realm'd after people started using the mixed set.

>>32796758

Ghost is a pretty mediocre offensive type. Most powerful non-legendary Ghost movie is 80BP, and while it has good neural coverage, it has awful super effective coverage. In short, it's a type that can hit everything, but for just ok damage.

Water's only dangerous because Grass and Electric are two of the worst types in the game.

>>32796063
by OP do you mean perfect? Because yes....Fairy type and water type are perfect

>>32800877
>What are Marowak and Mimikyu?

>>32800934
stay in denial, fairyfag.

>>32800966
Pretty much any dual type ghost has better stab moves to use.

>>32800981
in terms of mono-ghost sweepers there is porygon-z

>>32800981
awwww...were you a victim of the beastly fairy moves?

Ok...where did the Tapu touch you?

>>32800981
Marowak is clicking Shadow Bone 90% of the time, Mimikyu often prefers running Ghostium Z over Fairium.

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>>32797094
>Water

I will never not laugh at Grass types for apparently being strong against Water but ends up getting BTFO'd by Water types once they get their hands on a decent ice move

>>32801024
well every single water type has access to the best ice type move in the game, it's like if every grass type had earthquake or every fire type had thunderbolt

From what I've learned looking at past gens, Steel was never meant to be offensive in the meta. It was primarily designed to be defensive, while also giving it a couple of types to be SE against.

Fairy's introduction, however, now requires Steel types to do both offensive and defensive. Poison still cannot function since EQ tends to be on everything, and some Fairy users have access to Psychic moves.

Water's got its own problems, such as being an abundant type and having access to Ice moves, which puts Grass type at a disadvantage. Scald is another issue, but that's a separate can of worms.

This leaves Electric to deal with Water. Again, while most Electric types are fast, they're also frail. So if they don't get a OHKO in, they're most likely dead in that same turn.

>>32801159
>Scald is another issue
Sorry, newfag here. But what's the problem with scald?

>>32801186
Scald's burn chance is too high (30% iirc). It should be 10%.

>>32801186
It makes other special water moves are obsolete for most of the defensive water types. 30% chance to burn >>>>>>>>>>> +10 Base power.

>>32801195
drop it an additional 5 base power and I'm on board

>>32801195
>>32801196
Ok I'm convinced now, Water is really hinging on the OP side of things.

I mean, it's got excellent coverage against most of it's weaknesses. The Ice type coverage is one thing, but with the correct combinations (such as ground and electric) it can be deadly.

>>32801230
Not to mention, most Water types tend to be bulky in the defenses and HP, ensuring they can survive a hit.

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>>32801230
>>32801251
so all in all...pic related is prefect

>>32796063
>Steel/Fairy
>Water/Fairy
Pretty much unholy levels of insane bulk

>>32796141
>>32796229
>>32796232
>removing MORE of its resistances
Resisting a bunch of shit is what steel is all about. Fuck off.

>>32796821
Actually, If I'm gonna remove steel's resistance to psychic, I might as well give back its dark resistance.

>>32801036
Most of my favourites are water type and this still makes me mad as fuck. Just fucking fix this already, there's literally no reason for this. It was barely justifiable in Gen 1, where there ware barely any ice types and all but two were also water.

>>32801159
>Poison still cannot function since EQ tends to be on everything
But that would be a problem for Steel too as well, wouldn't it?
>and some Fairy users have access to Psychic moves.
They tend to carry them much less than Fire and Fighting moves. You will commonly see Flamethrower Clefable, Superpower Tapu Bulu, Focus Blast/HP Fire Tapu Lele and Magearna, Fire Fang Mega Mawile and so on, but you will basically never encounter a Fairy with a Psychic move aside from those who are Psychic themselves like Lele.
>Water's got its own problems, such as being an abundant type and having access to Ice moves, which puts Grass type at a disadvantage. Scald is another issue, but that's a separate can of worms.
This is an issue often overblown by /vp/. In reality, many Water types struggle to fit Ice Beam in their moveset, or don't even learn it, such as Keldeo. Even then, Ice Beam can struggle to 2HKO some Grass types, and there are some that are neutral to Ice anyway(such as Ferrothorn or Mega Venusaur).
As for Scald, I would have agreed with you last gen, but the burn nerf makes it pretty manageable now.

>>32800885
The only thing holding Ghost back is the lack of powerful moves. If it had a 100-120 BP move, then it would become the next Dragon.

I mean, it's why Lunala and Arceus-Ghost are so good in ubers.

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>>32796063
>all these Water apologists ITT

Every Water type and its dog gets access to the best Ice move. Ice types are lucky to get anything more than the useless Flash Cannon if they aren't dual-typed. Not only does this fuck over Ice types, it makes Water types better than they should be.

Water gets 4 resists but only 2 weaknesses, one of which is neutralized by the aforementioned Ice Beam and Grass being a weak type overall. As of gen 6, they all get Scald too. That's right, the best burn move in the game is fucking Water type (god forbid Lava Plume get some decent distribution). They went from being a good defensive type to being arguably the single best physically defensive type in the game.

Offensively, they're not shabby either. Every specially offensive Water type automatically gets Ice Beam + Water STAB, which by itself gets great coverage. In fact, the only things that resists Water+Ice moves are ... other Water types. If Water didn't resist itself, people would be comparing it to pre-gen 6 Dragon types.

The problem with Water is it's the jack-of-all-trades type with no weakness. It's good at everything.

>>32796063
Steel is fine
>Poison is now resistant and super on Water
>Ice also now resists Water (inb4 "But muh ice melting in boiling water) and Scald is now a Freeze-Dry clone with lower chance to burn and lower power
>Psychic is resistant and super effective on Fairy
You're welcome