Memes aside...

>>32787455
>baaaaw I hate seeing Pokemon battling each other

No.

>>32787455
Yes

She was close. Very close to being a decent character, right up to the point when she decided to leave and wasn't going to tell anyone.

After all the things you do for her, after all the events you go through together she decides to pull the plug on it and act as if nothing happened.

So no, anon, she's an awful character.

>>32787455
>anime lillie

For me it's like >>32787494 said
She broke Sun/Moon and Hau's heart

>>32787455
Not particularly. She's decently-written by the standards of Game Freak but she's really generic and bland, and her arc is predictable.
I dislike her with a passion but that's just due to SM's cutscene density and the fact that her character is inherently passive (and thus wasting your goddamn time every time she appears if you aren't a fan of slice-of-life moe shit).
I hope she gets the Zinnia treatment and never appears again, but I know Ohmori adores Lillie and I know most of Japan does as well, so I expect her to get shilled even harder than fucking Looker.

>>32787477
>implying that was her main problem

She being weak and that later being inspired by MC's psycho smile to become stronger on her own problems is what she was going for.

>>32787455
She was a pretty decent character by Pokemon standards. But it's not like she has some kind of competition to begin with. She's the first one closer to N in the entire franchise I consider "characters" instead of poor NPCs

The story part isn't the good core of the games.

Hell no

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>>32787622
explain why

No.

She's an incredibly boring character that the game revolves entirely around, a character that isn't even a trainer, a character that can't even fend for themselves, a character with a sob story that forces the player to make you feel sorry for her. Her excuse for not battling is insanely weak, and considering that a character like Wally exists- somebody with a physical disposition was able to make it to Victory road, cements her being nothing more than an over-hyped moeblob.
To add insult to injury, Sun/moon had a lot of other interesting characters that ended up not being explored because the entire game revolved around her. The game had a massive cutscene density, and yet most of it was spent with some stupid bitch who couldn't fend for herself whatsover.

I've seen people compare her to N, the latter being a large part of Black/White's story. But the game wasn't entirely about N, the game was still about you becoming champion and defeating the main game's evil team. What makes Lillie worse than N is that she steals the spotlight entirely, your character being little more than her personal cuck who fights her battles for her.

Tl;dr Lillie is just an over glorified moeblob.

>>32788097
B-BUT N IS A MARY SUE WHO YOU ALSO FEEL SORRY FOR

>>32787455
Someone on some other forum said people don't understand her pacifism because it was poorly written and I'm inclined to believe them.

I couldn't understand how she harped on and on about her being to weak and having to rely on people when all I wanted to do was just give her a pokemon and say "if you want to do something do something"

So at the end of the day no.

Her traits and conflicts and stuff are solid but it was just poorly executed.

>>32787516
>I hope she gets the Zinnia treatment and never appears again
Bitch it's literally only been 1 game since ORAS, "the Zinnia treatment" isn't a thing.

Eh, she wasn't horrible, but she wasn't great either. Just... Eh?

>>32788137
>Someone on some other forum said people don't understand her pacifism because it was poorly written and I'm inclined to believe them.
This.
>doesn't want to battle because she saw her mom hurting Nebby
>but stays with the professor for two months, a professor that studies Pokemon moves during battle
>also is fine with watching battles as soon as you show up
She really should've gotten her own mon a third of the way or halfway into the story. It felt like it was building up to it.

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>>32788163
Zinnia also got treated like utter dirt in the manga adaption of ORAS and never appeared in the anime.

>>32788172
She got redeemed in the end... kind of?

>>32787504
>Hau's heart
Actually that's a good thing because that means Sun can help him fix it

>>32787455
If you put effort into filling in the inherent holes of Pokémon's poor writing, yes.

If all you focus on is "uuuuugh cutscene bitch can't fend for herself", no.

I, as one who enjoys using the blank-slate main character trope to write my own story using what is predetermined by the game, found Lillie to be a great character with a strong backstory that I could even relate to. Yeah, the game's poor writing really makes it tough on a second playthrough, but nothing in Sun and Moon is good on their second playthrough, so I chose to remember her for my first experience with her. I like characters who grow strong but delusioned through traumatic backstories, hence why I love N and Zinnia, and having Lillie as a character who also went through a traumatic backstory but needed the player's help to grow strong from it was a nice new twist they hadn't used before, which also goes to show that not everyone is the same and not everyone grows the same way in similar situations (which is further built upon with Gladion, who has the exact same backstory as Lillie but became a completely different person from her). I'm not saying any of these characters are perfect, no, they do indeed have major flaws due to Gamefreak's writing incompetence, but I for one looks past that and chooses to focus on what there is to like about them instead. And to me, there is a lot to like. So to me, yes, Lillie is a good character. The ending made me cry.

>>32788097
I feel the same way.

>>32787455
no one in sun and moon is a well written character and it's disappointing

How do we fix Lillie's character in Sun and Moon?
What would make her a better character?

>>32788531
Make her do stuff and catch Pokemon on her own.

>>32787477
That was N, man.
Anyone that says N was a well written character should replay the game. He's fucking terrible.

>>32788172
>tfw when Zinnia is still alive after this

Well, at least judging by the position of Fug's impalement she will never reproduce due to Fug swiftly castrating her ovaries

>>32788771
Holy shit It literally did. Fug is fucking brutal

>>32787455
yes, she is cute

>>32787455
Not really. Her core personality is fine, as is her main plot. The main problem, for me at least, is that she is so dead set on being useless that she actively thwarts the laws set in place by the game to do it. Basically, she's stupid. Not unintelligent, but stupid, for refusing to learn. You'd think after the first time or two of her being put into mortal peril, she'd realize keeping Pokemon isn't just for cockfighting, but to actually protect yourself in case some faggot wants to wreck your shit, and that it might actually be a good idea to keep a few. Instead, she stubbornly and belligerently keeps expecting other people to do her dirty work, then apologizes afterwards as if that makes it square, and does it with the full expectation that it WILL happen again, because she isn't going to do anything differently. She doesn't decide "Hm, I'm probably going to get in another fight if I continue down this path, maybe I should get some protection, or do things in a way that doesn't invite conflict!", no, she decides "I'm going to continue starting fights and do nothing to be able to handle them myself, because Hau, Kantokid, or someone else will fix it!" Then the game bends around her to decide "Okay, this cavern is one of the hardest trials a trainer can go through, and only talented veterans go there, but fuck it, Lillie just strolls through".

Couple this with the focus the game places on her, and you get a mess that smells terribly of Sue. The most important thing in the universe is apparently all the whining this entitled little piece of shit does and the refusal to adapt to her surroundings, which implies an expectation that others will do the work for her. Nonchalant entitlement and stupidity are probably the features of a character I despise most. And remember "Stupid" doesn't mean "unintelligent". It means an active refusal to learn.

Plus, she's boring. That's probably the most damning of all.

No,

but at least she wasn't bat in an insulting way

>>32788531
Modify the game so I can fuck her.

>>32787455
literally the worst side character of all time and the main reason i hate SM (together with 99% cutscenes)

>>32787455
I actively wanted to kill her every time I she showed up on screen. She is easily the worst character in any videogame ever.

You could put together:
>Nazim from the Skyrim
>Slippy from Star Fox
>Baby Mario from Yoshis Island
>Navi from Legend of Zelda
>Claptrap from Borderlands
>Dog from Duck Hunt
>Resetti from Animal Crossing

Put them all together and they still wouldn't be nearly as rage inducing as Lillie.

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I can usually tolerate 'timid, shy girl' archetypes to an extent, but this whole scene just solidified her as pathetic to a comical degree in my eyes.
"Uh-oh, a bridge! T-this is my trial!!"

I mean fuck, she's pretty pathetic most of the time anyway, but this was supposed to be her 'powered up' persona.
Kanto is going to eat this bitch alive.

She's a pretty complex character. No wonder idiots hate her.

>>32787455
Yeah, for the jrpg standars at least.

>>32788097
>But the game wasn't entirely about N, the game was still about you becoming champion and defeating the main game's evil team.

Right on the money anon. N was also CLEARLY framed as the antagonist from early on and it was made abundantly clear he needed to be taken the fuck down. And that YOU were the only one who could do it.

>>32787455
Forced character.

>>32788531
Have it so she doesnt interrupt my quest

>>32788583
Anon N battles you multiple times throughout the story. Lillie practically posses her pants around pokemon.
Did you actually play the game?

>>32789817
I like you.
>>32793037
I like you.
>>32793840
N was the antagonist, N was wrong and other characters were ALLOWED to call him out on it, N's solid refusal to keep and train Pokemon properly meant you wiped your ass with him and his team of recently-caught fuckfaces every time, N learned his lesson by the end of the game and partially deconstructed, then reconstructed some of Pokemon's core central themes.

This? This shitty little Mary Sue moeblob you're supposed to love and want to protect? I wanted to slap the bitch, then hand her a Pokemon and tell her to protect herself, because I'm done with her shit, her mother's shit, her mother's cuck's shit, her mother's cuck's forced-meme team's shit, and all of this shit.

I came for the Alolan forms and new game mechanics, and I got them. I also something that badly tried to be modern and memey and moeblobby while also trying to be classic and failing.

>>32788583
I replayed White recently and his motivation doesn't work right since we, the players, have known for years that he's wrong. Maybe in-universe he makes more sense. But I sure like him more than Lillie if only because he's not in my face as often and fucks off as soon as you slaughter his team.

Y'know something I've realized? A lot of the problems people list on thread can be easily resolved by erasing the protagonists and having Lillie be the playable trainer instead.

Kukui ends up with a girl and her weak legendary Pokémon, who are both being pursued by the girl's crazy mom and her army of obviously the real villains. Knowing he can't protect her forever, Kukui forces Lillie to get a starter from Hala, and begins coaching her to be a strong trainer. Eventually, Kukui sends her off with Hau to take part in the trials, further bolstering Lillie's strength and confidence.

Since there would be no need for time to be diverted for moments between Lillie and the protagonist, more time can be spent with the captains and kahunas. The side characters could be more fleshed out with this extra time, which in turn would give Lillie more chances to develop.

Battles against Gladdion, Aether, and Lusamine would all have more weight to them for obvious reasons, and when engaging the final form of people that jack off to Nihilego, it's actually the player's fight instead of someone else's fight that the player has to deal with because no one else can move the plot along.

At the league, the final battle wouldn't just have the novelty of fighting the professor, but the novelty of surpassing Lillie's mentor. The one who started her journey and gave her the tools necessary to solve the problems in her life. Then postgame, she beats Red or Blue to cement herself as one of the greatest trainers in the world.

Boom, a proper character arc. Cliche and fanficy, but at least somewhat presentable.

Or maybe I'm giving Lillie's concept too much credit. One or the other.

>>32796231
This is genius. Naturally, GF will have nothing of the sort.

>>32796231
B-But muh self-insert!

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>>32787455
No. Self induced helplessness isn't an interesting trait for a heroine.

Her overbearing presence overshadowed things that I actually enjoyed about Alola, making the whole game feel like a drag. By the time she's gone, the campaign is almost over.

>>32795246
>I replayed White recently and his motivation doesn't work right since we, the players, have known for years that he's wrong.
Not really, his questions were never answered in previous games. Hell just look at all the memes on enslavement and cock fighting.

That's why he was a good character, he (indirectly) revealed some new information on the pokemon world, which made BW feel really fresh.

>>32796231
>no self insert
I wouldn't play it desu. If I'm going to play as someone else, might as well play literally any other JRPG.

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>>32796231
>just make Lillie EVEN MORE important and then the game will be perfect!
I don't know if there's a worse group of people on this board than Lilliefags.

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>>32796586
>USM isn't a sequel thanks to Lilliefags

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>>32796600
>Lilliefags convinced Game Freak to not fully implement following Pokémon
>Lilliefags convinced Game Freak not to put the Frontier in ORAS
>Lilliefags cancelled Megaman Legends 3
Is there anything they won't defile?

>>32796586
I'm not that anon, but Lillie is a byproduct of Gamefreak's emphasis on flawed moral lessons since BW.

If Lillie was the true main character, and had a semblance of depth, she would slowly learn through her adventure that people and pokemon can work with each other (after all this is the counter-argument Gamefreak has against N).

But instead, it's the self-insert that does the training and raising part, so Lillie is relegated to just admiring the self insert's strength as they bulldoze their way through the trials, because obviously self-insert is perfectly attuned to their Pokemon and thus are considered worthy of being called a hero because of that.

There's no way someone can be a non-trainer and a hero, because GF said so, thus Lillie sees herself as a flawed character who was blinded to the "truth" and suddenly her character is all about sucking the MC's cock and begging them to take Nebby, disregarding any bond they have in favor of the pure bliss a trainer can offer.


At least N went out of his way to understand what it means to be a Pokemon trainer, he even beat Alder to win the League before you did! This hasn't happened since the first gen.

And then true to his character he actually released all his Pokemon which you are later able to search and catch.

But then, probably out of pressure, GF had to reassure its kiddy playerbase that while N is kinda cool he's still a weirdo shut-in and is utterly wrong.

>>32787516
And at least Zinnia had big 'ole titties.

>>32787516
Basically this. For pokemon she's pretty decent

>>32787455
She's well written for a Pokemon character, but that's holding her to a low standard. In the grand scheme of RPGs, Pokemon is pretty basic and not particularly good, writing wise. I can't really think of a character in any Pokemon game that I'd say is "well written" outside of the scope of just Pokemon itself. Characters like Gladion, Cheren and Bianca come close but aren't really anything special.

>>32796289
>Not really, his questions were never answered in previous games
They're answered in RBY when you beat Blue.
>should Pokemon be separated?
>no, the power of friendship and the trust between you and your team blows everyone the fuck out

>>32796231
The problem is that you can't do that in a mainline Pokemon game because it entirely defeats the purpose of making it your adventure.
>>32796586
To be fair you wouldn't have Lillie bothering everybody since you're Lillie unless Gamefreak makes Lillie talk to herself or some shit.

She has the set up and exposition, but she never really delivers. She even has that moment where she seems like she's become independent, getting her own outfit and hair style... but she actually is just relying on YOU now, instead of her mother. She needed a heroic moment, or something to make it clear that she's grown stronger in her journey. And no, her completely ineffectual preaching at Lusamine doesn't count, she's dismissed entirely until the actual threat is gone.

>>32796586
I'm no lilliefag, but giving her an actual purpose other than exposition would probably be what is needed for me to like her.

>>32799267
The question is if pokemon would be happier without trainers.

RBY's ending is just about the pokemon's battling power, not their well being.

>>32787455
Lillie is trash but japs eat it up because she's cute and want to dick her, but her mommy is better for that.

>>32796289
>Not really
That's totally wrong. Look how many Pokemon literally NEED trainers for certain evolutions. And that's being generous and assuming they can pull off stone evolutions in the wild if they can find the stones.
Pokemon are so dependent on humans that it's in their genetics. Black and White's moral dilemma comes off as strange and obtuse to anyone who's played the games before, and when you get to the end and the game reassures you that people and Pokemon do need each-other, the player is left thinking "No shit.". N is still a more interesting concept than most NPCs thanks to his relationship with Ghetsis, but a lot of his character dialogue is based on assumptions on the player's behalf, which only really work if Black and White is your first exposure to the games.

>>32799398
I mean, I guess. But it never really shows abuse or anything like that. The games show that friendship between Pokemon and trainers is incredibly common and very powerful. In addition, it demonstrates that making Pokemon happy is very easy so long as they're with humans for the most part.

So we have four generations worth of games with that message. Why would anyone really give a fuck about what N says?

>>32799515
The evil groups abuse Pokemon, but that's about it. And even Plasma grunts do that.

>>32799531
Not even all of them do. It's Team Rocket and Plasma only, the others don't really do that except for Cyrus and the pixies.

>>32787455
>character
to strong a word for anyone in Pokemon games

>>32799479
I just accept that in BW1, it's all deliberate. All the holes in N's thinking, the contradictions shown by Plasma personnel and their supposed goal. They are just hints that N's beliefs are the result of misinterpreting his environment, which works fine for the narrative.
The problem only really comes up in various NPC dialogue bits in BW2, which seem to continue with the debate as if it ever had any weight to it, and wasn't just a scheme by some crazy power hungry mastermind.
I don't have any examples on me, but there's so many NPCs that ask if maybe Pokemon would be better off alone, as if they are coming to some profound conclusion, and it just comes off as just kind of pretentious to a returning player.

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>>32793037
Agreed, fucking hated this scene

>mfw that cutscene came on

>>32793037
To be fair, that bridge has no railings and is an accident waiting to happen.

>>32799662
So is the rest of the area.

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>>32787455
>game Lillie
>uses an image of anime Lillie

>>32788172
Mr.Stone was a scumbag in the ORAS manga too....
>>32788196
kinda...being in chair is...redeemable i guess.

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>>32799811
>...

>>32799297

>And no, her completely ineffectual preaching at Lusamine doesn't count, she's dismissed entirely until the actual threat is gone.

I just want to say, I really hated that cutscene. The cutesy angry face, her short, very childish venting. It felt very underwhelming.

>>32787455
To some extent, sure. She could have been much more fleshed-out though but they're saving that for USUM because they were too busy rushing SM out the fucking door.

>>32799579

It's not that surprising when you consider that you're an absolute monster with at least 6 trained Pokemon (very rare outside of E4) and that the NPCs are all shitters with one or two weak Pokemon, with which they went on an exciting journey to the next town 5 years ago before running back to get a day job at their local deli. Not many people in the games are capable of raising and training Pokemon into loyal and loving murder machines like the protagonists are. That doesn't mean the NPCs are abusing Pokemon, but it's not implausible that some do think keeping Pokemon may be stopping them from reaching their "true potential", in N's words. This is in line with the implication that Pokemon are not considered on the level of animals, but closer to humans. So partners, not pets.

>>32788209
I think you mean Chicken. OTP is Chicken x Lillie, you sicko.
>Lillie
>straight
You disgust me, anon.

>>32799662
To be fair, so was your birth.

>>32801907
>Expecting Game Freak to fix Lillie's character in just a year
Unless the story is completely different there is higher chance of Kris showing up than Lillie's character improving

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>>32802056
Krisfag pls, stop ruining my hopes and dreams for Lillie.

>>32787455
Yes. They should make a spin-off game with her in kanto. Or an OVA. Anything with her and what she does in kanto, please. Not for more kanto, but for more lillie

>>32802160
I'd buy this. Just give me more Lillie. I'll buy it. I don't care what form it's in. More Lillie is all I want.

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>>32787455
Decide that for yourself you fucking retard.
See if the character lacks proper amount of detail, if the character's development or life involved unnecessary randomness and if the character or anything about the character is unrealistic or inconsistent with the world. You know, the fucking basics of writing. Those are things you can judge OBJECTIVELY. Anyone with half a fucking brain can do it. Those are the things that decide if a character is "well written" or not. So decide for yourself.

And I'm talking strictly about the basics. Your "she's so cute and I love her!!!!!!!" and/or "b-but moeblobs are the worst!!!!!!!" are not relevant to anything. This isn't about your shit taste or your precious feelings, it's about the quality of writing, something that can be judged objectively. If you're having to ask this question instead of thinking for 2 minutes to decide for yourself, that means either you're a lazy fuck with no life to even waste and your sole purpose of existence is to waste oxygen, or you lack a fucking brain.

>>32802193
>And I'm talking strictly about the basics. Your "she's so cute and I love her!!!!!!!" and/or "b-but moeblobs are the worst!!!!!!!" are not relevant to anything.
They're relevant to most of us, so deal with it, faggot.

>>32802109
I am not even the Krisfag, just stating that the low chance of GF giving Kris screen time is still greater than the chance that they redeem Lillie

>>32802217
You're not wrong but please stop ruining my hopes and dreams, anon.

>>32799756
>still a highly punchable face
That's all that matters.

If she was well written, there wouldn't be any "memes" to put aside.

>>32793037
>>32795093
Honestly I thought she was going to become a trainer and battle you with the best Kanto/Alola she could find or at least battle you with the legendary.

Instead she's just a boring slut who can't do anything except a function that literally anyone can do in game. At least the anime has the 4th grade education in writing that actually progresses her character efficiently instead of being glorified fap material.