For all the shit Samurott gets for being a strange evolution

>>32726105
I agree, it might be because Squirtle and Wartortle were designed by the same person while Blastoise was designed by a different dude

>>32726105
Yeah, but it's fuckin' Blastoise, man.

I will admit that if it got another Mega/Z-Form/whatever the fuck, I'd like it to have the fluffy tail of Wartortle (maybe a Fu Manchu mustache/beard combo?), but it's not something I'm particularly worried about.

>>32726120
Is this true?

>>32726514
Yup

Squirtle and Wartortle were designed by Atsuko Nishida and Blastoise was designed by someone else.

What's worse is Blastoise index number is 28, and Squirtle and Wartortle's index numbers are 177 and 179, meaning Blastoise was actually designed long before the other two.

That means Squirtle and Wartortle should have matched Blastoise, not the other way around.

>>32726105
>Sure Samurott is bad but Blastoise is worse, so fuck you
That's a damn lazy attempt at defending a design. Of course, if you're trying to shit on Blastoise, then you're doing fine.

>turtles that look like water is jetting out of their shells constantly gets an evolution with actual jets
>now they don't have to tuck in to their shells Gamera-style to shoot water because water now shoots out straight from the shell
Oh no, such a tragedy

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>>32726105
Blastoise is cute! Cuuute!

>>32726629
Best starter

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>>32726105
>he doesn't think Blastoise looks awesome
First of all, how does it feel, to live with such shit taste?
Secondly, Samurott's problem is not that it looks different from Dewott. The problem is Samurott looks retarded. That difference exacerbates this problem, as Dewott keeps Oshawott's cuteness while inserting design choices to make him look cool. People expect these to be expanded on, but the whole line's design gets thrown out for one that wouldn't be able to stand, run on either two or four legs, would barely be able to swim, wouldn't be able to pull its swords out of their scabbards...
In the games and anime, they have him do these things through animation trickery, like how its swords grow and shrink at will, or just turn into actual lightsabers.

Blastoise could have enjoyed some more cues from its pre-evolutions design, true. But despite not doing so, its a design that works and makes sense. And that's why people shit on Samurott while praising Blastoise. It's not nostalgia, it's deserved.

>>32726105
Blastoise is still a turtle/tortoise the samurai otter known as Dewott turns into a retarded dog horse, more important, it's a quadrupedal samurai.

>>32726105
Heres the difference:
The Oshawott line have a progressing concept, but Samurott suddenly being structured like the shogun's horse would seem jaring at a first glance, even if otters are primarly quadrupedal anyway.

The Squirtle line have a continous concept until the final form. While Blastoise butchers the idea Wartortle had going for it, it trades an interesting eastern reference for looking like generic Kaiju badass. Which why west eats that shit up compared to a samurai-themed line taking the samurai concept too far.

In short, the western fanbase hates pokemon that try to be symbolic, compared being a generic badass.

>>32726580
I have a theory that Wartortle was supposed to evolve into something else entirely, that Pokemon would be at index number 181, which actually still has a cry intact in the RGB game code. Guess what, it's the same base cry as Squirtle and Wartortle, with only higher pitch.

>>32726678
Considering Wartortle is based on a popular depiction of a turtle that has lived for thousands of years and Blastoise is based on a popular depiction of a turtle that has lived since prehistoric times, the transition seems less jarring.
Especially when the features Blastoise has that it shares with other early kaijumons comes from Wartortle, like its shell design, teeth and claws.

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>>32726678
That's so bullshit, dude. People don't hate Samurott cause he's 2deep4u, they hate him cause he's ugly!

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>>32726721
> Best facial hair in the franchise
> Implying this hard
People who who say its "repulsive" simply lack taste in character design.

>>32726105
>Blastoise isn't much better.
You see, OP, Blastoise is actually better.
Samurott fails at two things: being a good progression for its line and being a good design.
Blastoise however only fails at the first (which is actually Wartortle's fault), but his design alone is great. I guess not everyone likes it, specially Wartortle fans, but in no way is as close to shit as Samurott's.

>>32726629
She's very cute!

>>32726829
Granted, that facial hair is awesome. Too bad it's the only good part of his design. On average, he's still ugly.

>>32726105
>hippo looking
Looks like Bowser. Tanky turtle monster design works, slow sea dog cosplaying as a samurai doesn't.

See, if you take Wartortle out of the equation, the transition isn't nearly as bad. If you do that, the line gains ears, cannons, and its tail uncurls.

Don't blame Blastoise, blame Wartortle for not being a better transition between Squirtle and Blastoise.

The only problem with Samurott is in the design. It's just a small problem area too, those massive flippers don't look like they could bend.
If it looked like it was actually capable of standing up, I don't think people would hate on the design as much.

The B/W anime could have really helped out here, but for some reason the B/W anime was the worst.

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>>32726944
>Too bad it's the only good part of his design.
> Implying the ancient samurai armor isn't cool
> Implying having a powerful spear on your helmet doesn't make sense for a swimmer that fights with shells
It's okayish at best.

>>32726580
>>32726701
the IDs don't bear any relevance to when they were designed, only to when they were programmed

>>32727157

Pokemon that got designed early got programmed in early

>>32727179
not really, RGBY internally order Pokémon in a manner that is distinct from the Kanto and National Dexes but GSC order Pokémon by the same order as the National Dex

only RSE use a random order like RGBY, all other games follow the official order

>>32727157
There are numerous articles online about how Rhydon was the "first designed" Pokemon because he's #1 in the index.

>>32727238
well duh, the Internet has lots of stuff about everything, that doesn't make it true

Nidoking was #007 during development and its ID in RGBY is still that but that doesn't mean it applies to all cases

they took 6 years to make the games, a lot changed (ever wondered why trainers had whips? Sugimori explained that, at one point, you fought against the Pokémon yourself but the idea was scrapped since it rendered the Pokémon useless)

Samurott gets shit?

>>32726918
What make Samurott design a shit design ? Legit question.

>>32727569
It isn't a human in a otter fursuit.

>>32727569
>QUADRUPEDAL SWORDSMAN
>swords are hidden in leg sheaths (which look tacked on), so you never see them (delphox problem)
>random shell on head
>awful pointless whale tail
>they literally admitted in an interview that it was born a case of writer's block
>samurai theme seems forced as fuck, it'd work better on almost any other animal (see golisopod, who is universally loved)
It's just a mess. A blemish on an otherwise decent record of water starters. I'm convinced the only people who like it started with BW and had it as their first pokemon. It was better in game than the other two, but so is sawk, and in both cases being good =/= looking good.

>>32726105
blastoise gets by on nostalgia. if it was introduced today it would be called a digimon and completely ripped on. same for if samurott was the gen 1 starter it would be lauded as god tier instead of hated.

>>32726105

I live Blastoise but I have always been bothered by the fact that it's cannons in no way point forward at the enemy. I don't know how it's actually supposed to use them. Being in Pokken would have helped she'd light on this but you know, Pikachu libre.

>>32728087
Nah, I still like Blastoise today for same reasons I liked him back then:
I like turtles
I like the color blue
Cannons are badass

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>>32728077
>QUADRUPEDAL SWORDSMAN
It's more functional like a bear anyway.
>random shell on head
>The evo line gaining more shells is random
How this a valid complaint?
>awful pointless whale tail
Pretty sure its meant to look like a war fan.
>samurai theme seems forced as fuck, it'd work better on almost any other animal (see golisopod, who is universally loved)
Its our first samurai-inspired pocket monster, so give it a break. Also a sea mammal using seashells to turn itself into a pseudo knight is innovative and not tacked on at all.

>>32728566
He never even uses the cannons in most attacks. Even ones where it would make sense.

>>32728584
Look at the thing you just posted. They have to constantly change the size of the shellblades in order to make them even look like they can work. Just imagining it trying to sheath the shell back is hilarous.

>>32728584
>It's more functional like a bear anyway.
Look at the image you posted. It's teetering on three legs while holding the sword. It isn't mobile. Imagine trying to walk like that. It doesn't work.
>How this a valid complaint?
because it looks like a narwhal. The shells on oshawott and dewott at least make sense because sea otters. Justify a sea lion wearing a conch on its head without "muh samurai." It doesn't work.
>Pretty sure its meant to look like a war fan.
here's another one. Probopass's "mustache" is supposed to look like metal shavings, but most people don't like the design because it doesn't look good. I like probopass and think the stache is stupid.
>Its our first samurai-inspired pocket monster, so give it a break. Also a sea mammal using seashells to turn itself into a pseudo knight is innovative and not tacked on at all.
Voltorb is our first pokeball inspired monster, and I don't see anyone defending it.
>Also a sea mammal using seashells to turn itself into a pseudo knight is innovative
good idea =/= good execution, as I've explained.
>not tacked on at all
Those greaves are the definition of tacked on. "To add something extra, especially something that does not seem to belong to the rest."
Explain how seashell greaves look good on a sea otter. Samurai + sea lion is like a candlelike water type; it sounds interesting but ultimately doesn't work.

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>>32728077
>I'm convinced the only people who like it started with BW and had it as their first pokemon.
It's one of my all-time favourites and I've never even used it. I prefer using Pokemon I'm not as keen on in order to appreciate them more instead of just sticking to the things I like. The fact that it was created as a result of artist's block is honestly a positive in my eyes as we got something inspired (by the experience of the designer visiting the sea lions) and whimsical - a charming concept that would never have come around if they stuck to simple progression.
Maybe I'm just biased towards unconventional designs but Samurott is, for me, the epitome of a fantasy design in a series of fantasy creatures.

>>32727001
This

>>32728566
The newer games have tried to make his cannons smaller so they'd be able to have a little better range of movement, but I think now they look like ass.

Back in the early gens he had giant meaty cannons that look like they could wreck your shit. Now they look like pencils.

>>32728691
>Explain how seashell greaves look good on a sea otter
meant sea lion there at the end, my mistake. I already covered why it works for the other two (though I'm not a big fan of oshawott for other reasons)

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>>32726105
All water starters get a weirdly out of syc middle evo. Sadly Samurott it's the final form and thus most of the hate is because it's fuuucking disappointing. Plus Blastoise rocks

>>32728646
Oshawott lacks claws despite sea otters having retractable claws
Instead, Oshawott started the idea that their weapons were stand-ins for claws
Samurott only finished the idea by having weapons work like retractable claws

>>32728772
Yeah, a lot of starters have the awkward middle strange.

>>32728584
It's not remotely functional, you posted an image that shows off the main problem most people have with it, it looks fucking retarded trying to use those swords and literally couldn't in some depictions.
Also they don't remotely fit into the holsters. Also also "more shells is random" is a valid complaint because this thread is about opinions you fucking loon.

>>32728796
retractable claws =! a shellblade changing shape

That would be more akin to seathing the blade, which is impossible for the creature to do without the blade changing size. Which is bad design.

>>32726105
Do you mean they are both shit?

>>32728802
True but with fire types and grass types it tends to be much more "Here is the middle of the first and final evos we clearly designed first" but water types?
Wartortle randomly has a fluffy tail and ears.
Croconaw randomly has clothing-esque patterns and a caveman theme that goes nowhere
Marshtomp. Fucking MARSHTOMP
Prinplup is fine. Gen IV really didn't suffer this that badly.
Dewott is pretty awesome, but then writers block, shape-shifting blades and suddenly quadruped
Frogadier continues the bubble theme that goes fucking nowhere. Not a huge deal but come on, half this board geniunely thought Greninja was a fake leak because of how sudden the change was
Brionne is a fucking miscarriage

>>32728899
Meanwhile Grass has consistently have had the best mid-stages

>>32728953
Pretty much. Fire middles tend to be awesome if misleading (Suddenly fighting/Suddenly bipedal/suddenly..Delphox.) and Grass tends to be a near flawless midpoint between the two. Even Dartrix, probably the worst offender grass has for a WTF mid evo is much closer to both Rowlett and Decidueye than most water starters get.

>>32728569
your opinion is irrelevant, because that situation never happened and you already know blastoise. so you're not even arguing against it, you're just quite literally posting something irrelevant to what was being said.

>>32729101
>liking anything that you have also previously liked in your youth is nostalgia and your taste must be dismissed.

..oh okay

>>32728827
There is no sheath. There's no place to put a blade because there is no blade until the piece of armor detaches. "Sheathing" is the sword going back into being just a blunt plate of armor so that it can reattach to the rest of its armor again.

>>32729176
It basically functions as a sheath though, to fit the samurai mofit. Even if it somehow wasn't that still doesn't explain why the blade changes in size

>>32726660
best post itt

>>32729176
Are you retarded? He has three slated bits of shell, one with a handle. He pulls the handle and the first "Slate" OUT from underneath the other two. This is fucking stupid for multiple reasons such as there being no world in which the blade fits within the other two shells worth of leg, the fact that sometimes the leg isn't even long enough or my personal favourite, the impracticality of pulling both swords out at once. I don't give a shit how neat your fan art is, the in game model can not do that and looks fucking stupid when it tries.

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>>32729176
>>32728827
Samurott's leg armor is the weapon's sheath. Its more "primitive or old-fashioned" with the weapon storage, as a samurai's scabbard would be wrapped around their armor rather than being apart of it.

>>32729101
Did you just claim that he DIDN'T pick Blastoise? Or that he made up why he picked him? What's wrong with you?
I 100% agree with what he said and I'm 100% sure that I did as a child as well.
"Tortoise with water canons poking out it's shell" vs "four legged sea lion with two swords"
I know what sounded better at the time and now.
If your point is we would hate Samurott LESS if we had nostalgia for it, obviously. I probably wouldn't even care that it's fucking mongoloided swords literally can't exist within it's own character model. Luckily, Blastoise is a fine design and my nostalgia takes it from "Perfectly adequate design" to "Fuck yea Blastbro"

>>32726580
I didn't know Nishida designed Pokemon. That's neat.

>>32729267
>He pulls the handle and the first "Slate" OUT from underneath the other two.
Proofs

respond to these, otterfags >>32728646
>>32728691
>>32728810
the stupid shrinking swords are just icing on the samurotten cake

>>32728691
>good idea =/= good execution, as I've explained.
Not meeting expectations =/= poor design
Its execution is fine you flustered faggot.

>>32729398
>nitpicking a part of the whole argument
the only one flustered here is you. How is the execution or a swordsmand who has to stand still to use its sword fine? I'd love to hear it.

>>32729356
What do you mean proof? Look at literally any art of him with his sword out and the suddenly missing piece of armor that comes with it.

>>32729356
>otterfags dont even understand the design they're trying to defend

>>32729421
Look at the model again, model expert. The first slate of armor is pulled off and put back on to the second slate. Every other animation shows that the first slate isn't attached to the arm, and only attached to second slate.

>>32729398
Not even him, where did he say that not meeting expectation =! poor design?
Where did he even say that it didn't meet his expectations? Good job with your informed fucking rebuttals you tosspot
I liked Samurott when I started reading this thread, not that I was ever delusional about his design, but I'm starting to hate him because of memelords like you

>>32729472
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lNZm7M1DxM
Literally what the fuck are you drooling about?

>>32729481
I am the anon, and I respect you. A bunch of my favorites are objectively bad (dodrio is pretty barebones, seviper is just an edgier ekans ripofff, etc.), but you don't see me crying when people call them out, because my love for them doesn't depend on them being god's gifts to the franchise. You're one of the good ones.

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>>32726105
Blastoise will never look this retarded.

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>>32729528
Fuck. Thread winner.

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>>32729490
Explain what is going on with the armor on the right arm. If one piece is underneath another, than the armor shouldn't look like one, cohesive piece.

>>32728953
It's not hard making grass type lines since every plant and fungi already have several distinctive growth phases in real life to be inspired by

>>32729528
How is that Escavalier levitating?

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>>32729416
Its a fucking samurai otter, not a human in a otter fursuit. Use your brain for once dipshit.

>>32729587
yes, but the samurai + sea lion aspect doesn't work, because it's on all fours. If you're going to give a creature human elements, you have pick a creature that can actually use those elements. See >>32729528. For example, if you were a mon based on a brilliant philosopher, it wouldn't work, because you clearly can't use a brain.

>>32729558
I don't understand what you're missing.
The armor on the right arm is two slots and a sword that is designed to look like a third slot when sheathed.
Either you're saying that one of the pieces magically vanishes when he summons a sword that doesn't remotely fit within the other pieces or you're saying that the design is retarded and doesn't work in any conceivable way which is my point.
What are you saying happens that is also, quite importantly, possible?

>>32729587
>Samurai otter
No, that was a great idea, sadly it stopped dead with Dewott.
>>32729528
This is what a "samurai" sea lion looks like.

>>32729582
Did you think it just sat on the ground immobile forever? Plenty of Pokémon levitate without the ability.

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>OP posts thread
>samurott may be shit, but blastoise is almost as shit
>entire thread shits on samurott and praises blastoise
>some people man up and admit they like blastoise because of nostalgia or personal reasons
>otterfags try to defend their abortion as (((clever))) and get BTFO
this is a good thread

>>32729632
Look in the ORAS dex so that you can see it from more than one angle
The armor on the front legs do not bend with the arm, unlike the armor on the back legs. The armor sticks together, with the top section not even touching the arms in certain animations. The tip of the blade when it is being pulled out is coming not behind the second plate, but from it.
There is no slot for the sword to be pulled out of. A plate of armor is pulled off, changes into a sword, and assumes back into a plate of armor shape again when it is being "sheathed."

>>32729558
>>32729750
I like how, in your try to defend it, your posts actually explain why that part is so shitty designed.

Dude blastoise is a god design, a turtle with fucking hydro cannons on its back? How can you not like that?

And sammurot is just a piece of shit

>>32729750
But that's not true at all OR possible within the design. You're lying (or bizzarely stupid) to say it's EQUALLY retarded.

>>32726105
Samurott gets shit for suddenly being a quadruped despite being based on a samurai/shogun, something that should clearly be a biped. It betrays the common links in the previous evolutions way too harshly.

Blastoise isn't great in this regard but it has the benefit of looking really cool as well as being from a point in time when there wasn't really a standard to meet.

Meganium is shit for the same reason, why the absolute FUCK does it lose the leaf on its head? They chose to prioritize the buds around its neck instead of the leaf and it backfired massively.

People always complain about the drastic change for Samurott compared to Dewott, but I actually like that. While the sword thing was poorly thought out for a quadruped, I like how it becomes more "beastlike" rather than more humanoid like most Pokemon.

It's not perfect, but I like it a hell of a lot more than the fan designs of "Dewott but slightly bigger".

Samurott should have been more like Infernape, in a stance that lends itself to standing on its hind legs or on all fours depending on the situation.

Being on all fours all the time doesn't mesh well with its sword gimmick at all. Most people didn't even realize what the gimmick was until the series switched to 3D models because it made so little sense visually.

>>32729794
Scalchops being made out of keratin has its implications. Oshawott and Dewott pull off parts of their bodies and reattach seamlessly, and so too does Samurott's armor.

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>WAAAAH WHY IS IT A QUADRUPED/WORST DESIGN EVER/IT COULD'VE BEEN AMAZING AND GODLIKE/HOPES AND DREAMS CRUSHED
Damn, if only the fanbase would quit setting immensely high hopes on Gamefreak these days. Its almost if discussion of the franchise is nothing but a whine fest.

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@32730040 (not worth the (you))
Many quadrupedal pokemon are very good. Samurott is not one of them. Also
>setting immensely high hopes on Gamefreak these days
>basically admitting samurott is shit

>>32730040
>let me trivialize the other side's entire opinion and arguments with a goalpost moving phrase while I use all caps
>also look at my "neutral" stand
>so calm
>I have clearly won
I
AM
SILLY

>>32729335
Didn't she inclusively design Pikachu?

>>32730064
>It's shit because I believe it's shit!
Your a faggot

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I think the point everyone is missing is that Samurott should have been bipedal. End of story.

I don't give a fuck about his moustache
Or dingy shell sheaths
or its shell-helmet.

You can't have a Pokemon use swords and not be able to move around. It doesn't work, like >>32729528

The concept IS cool. The design is flawed.
Blastoise doesn't need to make sense because the line itself doesn't have a theme or concept. Just turtles. Then turle with cannons. There isn't anything wrong with Blastoise, though I would prefer it having kept Wartortle's ear thingies.

>>32730223
pretty much, Ken just made it happen

>>32730292
by setting expectations high, he meant we were ungrateful for expecting a good pokemon. You're a retard, learn to read.

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>>32730294
Won't people still find it a flawed design though? If anything, it would be minuscule adjustment at best.

>>32729985
That's what we're saying. He's pulling a sword off/out and putting it back. You/they are saying that one appears from voidspace when he removes the top shell of his legs.

>>32729528
>>32730294
>>32730411
Being bipedal would fix the main issues of the design, mostly that gif of it sperging out on it's stomach. It doesn't explicitly fix the magical summoned shell swords and it would probably end in people bitching it was "another" bipedal starter (though not so much since it's water and not fire)
What it would have taken to fix it is simply for it to have been planned from the start, rather than pulled out the ass of a panicking designer. It's a fantastic asspull
It's not a great 3rd evo

>>32730411
It depends, I really like this pic. See how a simple redesign can change a pokemon? >>32730294

>>32729711
I know. I'm just happy to have people talking about Blastoise. His threads don't pop up very often and he's my favorite pokemon.

>>32730294
The design isn't flawed, the execution is.

They could just have made it stand on two or thee legs when sword-fighting, like a bear will stand on two legs alone to intimidate. Gorillas can stand on just two, too, you know.