>ZInnia is just worse Eusine >Lillie is just worse N

>>32628163
Correct

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>>32628163
>>Lillie is just worse N

I was never on the receiving end of Lillie's hypocritical lectures
I would have gladly punched N's teeth in had the game given the options

>>32628163
One guy wants to prove himself and mankind has bettered itself to a legendary. The other is someone who acts like a fucking child and usurps the plot.

Fug did nothing wrong.

>>32628163
But N is the worst character in the series, while Zinnia is one of the best, and Eusine is one of the most forgettable.

>>32628191
She's N but she breaks the pace more and her growth doesnt come from battling you and seeing your pokemon directly

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>>32628217

>>32628191
>When you get so buttblasted about your shit waifu being criticised that you reply with meme images out of autistic rage

lol

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>>32628217

>>32628217
Incorrect

>>32628191
She is.

>"ugh... MOOOOOM" the character
At least N wasn't a whiny faggot.

>>32628200
I like N more but this is a legitimately good point

>>32628217
t. waifufag

EuQUEEN >>>>>>> stiNky
ZinYES >>>>>>>>>> basic white girl #1039493

I think comparing Lillie to n is stretching it. The only thing they have in common is they don't like seeing Pokemon get hurt

You help n grow because he sees that there are people who have loving and caring relationships with their Pokemon and not all Pokemon hate humans. He goes from hating humans to realizing he was manipulated and that humans and Pokemon can coexist in harmony.

You help Lillie grow by showing her the strength you and your Pokemon have gained through battling and being with each other. Seeing you, a kid who goes from newbie to saving the fucking region, shows her the strength and confidence that can be gained from battling in both Pokemon and humans. She goes from a timid, weak girl who doesn't believe in herself or cosmog, to someone who acknowledges her weaknesses and strives to become stronger to help herself and cosmog who is a role model for her as something that was so small and helpless that grew into something unbelievably strong.

They're very different and grow in different ways. Comparing zinnia to eusine works better.

Also fuck zinnia

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>>32628217
i unironically agree with all of this.

>>32628273
They are children of the evil team boss who's quest is directly related to how they were raised, and their growth comes from direct interaction with the main characters.

Members of the evil team also helped raise them and give insight to their character

>>32628240
>At least N wasn't a whiny faggot.
???

Were we playing the same game? He was a whining autist through and through.

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>>32628262
did you get those unfunny names off funnyjunk or something

>>32628217
>>32628291
>Zinnia
>One of the best characters
Wanting to put your dick in her does not make her a good character.

>>32628304
that's about where the similarities end, because neither their beliefs nor character growth and involvement with the plot were similar

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>>32628273
Heres your (You)

>>32628340
I mean sure, but the base aspects of their characters are similar, even if they go in different directions. Though if that were the case and I was being that broad I could also call them both shittier versions of Silver.

Certainly not as strikingly similar as Eusine/Zinnia though.

>>32628343
>I will reply to this post and show my disagreement by including a picture that only disproves the first line

"ok"

>>32628322
I wouldn't expect a basic white boy from redditchan's furfag board to understand what it means to make up your own nicknames on the spot.

>>32628343
Those are more cosmetic and physical things, I was implying the character themselves and their personal thoughts and feelings are different and change differently throughout the game.

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>>32628191
N gets in your way and interrupts you occasionally but that's because he's an antagonist, and he doesn't overstay his welcome when he does show up. He also actually battles with Pokémon (with a gimmick of completely changing his teams each time because he doesn't like humans capturing them so he just grabs whatever's near him for a battle).
Lillie stops you constantly but it's somehow supposed to be endearing just because she's an anime girl? She overstays her welcome to anyone that doesn't love her presence just for her being an anime girl but never contributes anything to the plot in most of them, just standing around being a moe anime girl saying things like "o-oh wow I can't do the thing I need you to help me" all the time.
Lillie is never proactive to the plot and just tags along, with you acting as her bodyguard as she just stumbles from place to place without purpose. The game, rather than trying to make her an engaging character, just takes actual proactive characters like your main rival and the main villain and makes them related to Lillie. Lillie's entire stake in the plot is "I'm related to the person doing these things!"

Zinnia is a fucking shit character too but at least she actually does things in the Delta Episode. They're aggravating things, but she doesn't waste your time the way Lillie does. And Zinnia fans, the two or three that exist, aren't as insufferable as Lillie fans.

>>32628366
Yeah, but even though they are different, they are certainly similar enough to be compared

>>32628366
>I was implying the character themselves and their personal thoughts and feelings are different and change differently throughout the game.

Does growing to like Pokemon battles not count as a personal thought and feeling?

>>32628371
did the people who make the manga hate Zinnia as much as we do?

>>32628240
>N wasn't a whiny faggot
are you retarded?

>>32628374
Yeah, looking at it now, they are more similar then I implied. But saying Lillie is a shitty version of N doesn't fit, because that would make reference to character development. All of the physical similarities are almost exactly the same, the evil leader/not liking battling/meeting you throughout the game (wow this is definitely a similarity that only these two share!)
They are related to the legendary differently and they do go to a distant land for different reasons

>>32628163
So what is the image meant to imply, tumblr autists exaggerating a new character's bad points, they make it out to be that she ruined ORAS, she isn't a good character but she was more of a plot device for the extra content

>>32628398
>(wow this is definitely a similarity that only these two share!)

Tell me another character from the games who doesn't like battling. Go on.

>>32628376
I'd say they like it differently

N realizes people can like Pokemon, Lillie already knew that

Lillie realizes that people and Pokemon become stronger physically,mentally, and emotionally and Pokemon don't hate battling. N already knew they got stronger (kind of)

Other than parent issues and being key characters, Lillie and N don't have much in common, and even Lillie has more actual parent issues while N's dad just happens to be shit and N doesn't really have any hangups on that

Zinnia could actually be boiled down to a worse Eusine but even what her character does is different because it's pretty clear they mean for her to be a fuckup

>>32628413
I meant the meeting you throughout game which was something listed in the list you showed

>>32628398
only 3 characters you meet on your adventure are reated to the evil team leader. That alone isnt notable, but when the other things add up, it becomes another notable point

>>32628405
>tumblr boogeyman
go back
Also the image has nothing to do with the quality of ORAS, just ZInnia's story

>>32628426
No shit you meet other characters throughout the game. That doesn't make Lillie not a worse N though.

OP here

Guys, the characters dont have to be exactly the same to be similar, and having a lot of differences doesnt mean they dont have similarities as well. Of course GF wouldnt make a new character exactly the same as an old one, but seeing several similar concepts being repeated in one character is interesting.

I think you're taking it a smidge too literally when people say they are similar

>>32628386
Zinnia is an irredeemable bitch in the manga and an outright villain who thinks they're a hero instead of being portrayed as some kind of weird anti-hero. From what I understand, in addition to all the shit that happened in-game like leading Magma and Aqua on for her own purposes, she
>attacked Sapphire as a child with her Salamence (this was in the original RSE story but the Salamence didn't have an owner)
>the Mossdeep Takeover, instead of being an unrelated attack that lets Zinnia walk in and destroy the Link Cable, is an outright terrorist attack led by Zinnia and Magma/Aqua grunts
>almost kills Sapphire during said fight
>gets pissed when Ruby and Sapphire befriend Rayquaza on their own and attacks them over it
>gets Rayquaza alone and tries to convince it to go with her and fuck up that meteor themselves
>Rayquaza's response was pic
The answer is almost certainly yes.

>>32628429
Expecting 30 more minutes of story to have as much quality as the actual story, why do people get so buttmad over Zinnia being introduced, she is just an extra fight, the great thing about the story was you fighting Deoxys with Mega Fug in space, raging about characters in a shallow game is something autists do, cherry picking and exaggerating everything which describes OP's image perfectly

>>32628371
Doesn't she want to find and explore the ruins or some shit?

>>32628486
*during said terrorist attack
The only thing that was less than perfect was that Zinnia didn't die from the attack. She's in a wheelchair now though so that's something.

>>32628163
Correct
But I think Zinnia had potential, Lillie is just an annoying bitch on the other hand.
I did not like that the story merged in "muh family problems".

>>32628490
Why do you need to defend this? It's bad, even by Pokemon standards. The minute long fight where I went into space facing Deoxys (for one hit since Fug was overpowered) does not make me feel good about the 2 or 3 hours of total shit that was the rest of the Delta Episode. No, they dont get to put effort into creating the postgame story but then get immune from criticisms because it wasnt about the story.

Also, making everyone who isnt you out to be super angry and buttmad compared to the calm and collected you? Not an argument. I can call you a retard without being angry at you

>>32628371
did she died

>>32628560
nah but she's crippled

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>>32628444
How is she a worse N
You never even battle her

>>32628429
That's understandable


I'm liking the conversation we're having, by the way. Hope you guys are too

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>>32628560
>stabbed in the belly by tail
>hyper beamed
>merely crippled

she needs to go

>>32628564
I post threads like these to have conversations like these, it's what /vp/ needs more of, friend

This is a franchise with so much characters, places and lore and half the threads are reposted jokes, generals and fetish stuff.

>>32628582
point blank hyper beamed

>>32628539
It is just average bad, they needed a plot device for the Delta episode, too bad they made a shitty backstory to explain Zinnia, people put their frustrations of the delta episode on to her, can you prove that every comparison in OP's image isn't exaggerated

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>>32628163
>>Lillie is just worse N
The similarities between the two are clear as they can be, so not commenting on that. But "worse"? In what way, exactly? Lillie is far better character. Quite literally the best yet. And N fails to be even a character. He flawed on the most fundamental levels of writing a character.

>>32628626
How is he flawed?
>Lillie is far better character
How? You can't just waltz in here and make these points without backing them up. People have already said their grievances about Lillie. Why not address those posts first before making an assertion you aren't backing up?

>>32628620
No, because we both played the same thing and came to different conclusions, so if you dont already think the comparisons arent exaggerated, you never will be. Which is fine, really. Zinnia is shit but I dont care if anyone may disagree

But it's not like I'm the only one who thinks Zinnia is that bad,and is definitely the worst part of the Delta Episode

>>32628626
Are you one of the people that Gen 7 characters are the best because you cant understand a person's feelings or motivations without 3D models to carry across these things? I dont see how Lillie is the best character in the franchise.

>>32628163
Your list already negates itself from the very first line where you listed their difference. If their stories are different, why take the rest out of context and attempt to compare them? Zinnia and Eusine served their own purposes in the story. If you liked Eusine's more, than that means your preferred his story, not that Zinnia is a worse version of him.

Lillie and N have even less in common.

>>32628660
What did you spend like ten hours analysing Zinnias lines just so you can hate her, there is a lot of shit, take Sonichu for instance, just because you have a massive hateboner for a below average character doesn't make her the worst character in the world

>>32628584
>This is a franchise with so much characters, places and lore
That hardly connects or leads to anywhere. You can't talk about the lore or characters because there is so little about them outside of their self-contained plots that, if try to talk about something without adding headcanons or speculation, you'll end up with a dry conversation. We had a lore thread a few days ago, it archived hitting only half the max post count because there's just nothing to talk about but the same shit over and over.

>>32628719
You are moving the goalposts by changing what people are saying so you have an easier person to argue with.

I dont like Zinnia, nobody is bringing up the quality of ORAS, nobody is saying she's the worst thing in the world, nobody is saying she's worst than other bad things in completely other mediums. And it's pretty easy to just play through the game once and just remember it.

Quit arguing with the imaginary person you are inventing and using my posts to do it.

>>32628240
N was most definitely a whiny faggot, bro. Lillie is still a worse character, but if you're going to state falsities you're going to make your argument worse.

>>32628748
I'd hardly call 200+ posts a bad conversation. Plus not everything needs to be a lore thread, there's things to compare, favourites to discuss, etc. There's many different ways to start conversation on the topics in this franchise

>>32628763
So you completely agree with the comparison OP has made, much of which only someone dedicated to the character would know, I can't remember almost any of the stuff in the OP's image, much of her story was bland, and it has been ages since I played HGSS, would you say that the comparison is entirely accurate or just another trash meme comparison

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>>32628646
Let's start with how he literally bends the rules of the universe to favor him.

Starting with his backstory, the foundation of any character, what defines them. He was abandoned in a place with only Pokemon. And he was raised by them. Remember how since the very first games, you have never been allowed to even touch tall grass or go anywhere near wild Pokemon? Because they are dangerous and can harm you, as they're seen harming a Professor in Hoenn. Yeah, that doesn't apply to N. The very first thing about his character, already bending the rules.

Then, he spends so much time among Pokemon that he learns to talk to to them. In likely less than a decade. There are Pokemon Professors, who have STUDIED, lived with and raised Pokemon for over half a century, like Oak and Rowan. Yet, they can't talk to Pokemon. But for some reason, only N can. Again, bending the universe to favor himself.

So let's move on the present. He is the King of a criminal organization. Make no mistake, they're clearly criminals. It's all black and white here. You see Team Plasma abuse and steel Pokemon before the second Gym, and by the third, they've raided a Museum and stolen Bianca's Pokemon. And he's their leader. And he walks free, no one ever doing anything about it. He reveals he is their leader himself, right after he helps them escape after they tried to rob an old man. But he takes no blame for it, because as always, logic doesn't apply to him.

His personality doesn't go beyond "Pokemon". That's all he ever talks about. That's his personality. Pokemon. He's that one dimensional. And even that part of his character doesn't make sense. He says he wishes for the best for Pokemon, but then he says he'll FORCE Pokemon away from the Trainers, regardless of their feelings.

These inconsistencies are present in every aspect of N. Name one thing that makes sense about N. You can't.
As for Lillie, I can go on all day, but there's no need. She's by default better, because N's shit.

>>32628801
So basically you dont remember the character and so anyone who remembers more than you has to be obsessed, and even though you dont remember you know it's wrong/exaggerated?

Seriously what are you even doing here?

>>32628822
>Starting with his backstory, the foundation of any character, what defines them. He was abandoned in a place with only Pokemon. And he was raised by them. Remember how since the very first games, you have never been allowed to even touch tall grass or go anywhere near wild Pokemon? Because they are dangerous and can harm you, as they're seen harming a Professor in Hoenn. Yeah, that doesn't apply to N. The very first thing about his character, already bending the rules.
I havent read the rest of this, but this part is wrong.

You arent allowed in tall grass because in each game, someone is there to stop you because it is generally accepted that you need a pokemon to protect you

That doesnt mean that it would be impossible to go in tall grass and not be harmed, in the same way that the danger of having sex without protection is risky but not a guaranteed pregnancy

>>32628822
>Then, he spends so much time among Pokemon that he learns to talk to to them. In likely less than a decade. There are Pokemon Professors, who have STUDIED, lived with and raised Pokemon for over half a century, like Oak and Rowan. Yet, they can't talk to Pokemon. But for some reason, only N can. Again, bending the universe to favor himself.
I'm pretty sure he was born with that ability, not that he learned it (which was why Ghetsis grabbed him to begin with).

>>32628855
>That doesnt mean that it would be impossible to go in tall grass and not be harmed,
Yeah, that's why you encounter so many friendly Pokemon once you DO go in tall grass, right? Not like every singe one of them attacks you.
I'm not saying literally all Pokemon will harm you. But the vast majority will. If a Pidove won't, it doesn't matter. The Patrat next to it will. And none will sure as hell raise you.

>>32628823
You aren't proving every comparison made to be correct, some line up but others are trash meme tier or invalid comparisons

>>32628870
Which makes it better how? Now it's even more unrealistic. He's literally born knowing a language. That's even more unrealistic and rule bend-y.

>>32628371
I constantly hear about this "lilliefag" boogeyman but I have only seen a couple autistic Lillie posts. They seem be be one of the less cancerous waifufags.

>>32628883
I mean, you're in an unrealistic world to begin with. It's been established that humans can be born with unique abilities. What's the big deal, especially when he's shown off to be a hero of legend (much like Hilbert)?

>>32628875
Why would we need to prove it to you when you dont remember anyways? You havent even made an argument other than stuff not actually related to the thread at all.

Plus, all of the stuff in OP happened, there's nothing to "prove" except how extreme it is, and you wont be convinced so there's no point

>>32628902
I remember filtering lillie threads and it was like 8 threads at any given point. Probably died down at this point now though

>>32628902
>This is my wife Lillie
>Be Chicken-chan (Really gay) see this, what do?

>>32628913
So your arguing that your version of events are any more reliable,

lets take:

'Wants to find a legendary to SAAAAAAAVE THE WOOOOORLD'

Yes she wants to find a legendary to save the world, would wanting to flood or drought the region make this any better?

They have to put it in caps because they are autistic about motivations of people in Pokemon games, the only thing in common is that they have reasons to find a legendary, one for the post game plot line and the other for vague personal reasons, who else needs to find a legendary for reasons, oh right, literally every antagonist after and including gen 3

>>32628822
As another anon put it, N is the Ash of the games. Shit, retarded, lacks a personality beyond "Pokemon", the perfect Mary Sue, chosen hero, the purest of all life forms, and no matter what he does, he'll always be forgiven, but despite all of this, he's still ridiculously popular. At this point, I'm starting to think shit Mary Sue are just what people want. It works every fucking time. In most franchises, not just Pokemon, if Kirito is any evidence of that.

>>32628163
>every character is supposed to be the same
>every character is interchangeable with each other and therefore there can only be one good character in existence
Jesus christ kill yourself.

>>32628273
Lillie is almost female N storyline wise. The biggest difference being that she had no political conections. The point is even N was smarter than her. He was more active and was a Pokemon trainer while Lille expected everything to be solved for her like a damsel in distress.

>>32628777
>there's things to compare, favourites to discuss
Would be lovely if any of these kinds of threads managed to survive. They either die quickly or devolve into stupid arguments.

>>32628163
Literally only the third point shows zinnia in a worse light than eusine and that's just because of how its executes in the game, no the idea in the pic.

>>32628964
I'm arguing that there is nothing to be proven.

I didnt even start this, your entire point started with you needing to find random ulterior motives for people to hold different opinions to you on a shit character.

If you think her motivation is adequate, that's fine? If other people think they arent, say, because she gets in the way of actual efforts to save the world with no explanation or a chance to have a discussion with the other side, that's fine too.

Again, you want to argue something in an effort to "win" but arguing with people just discussing their opinions

>>32628366
They are similar. Meet the main character. Get inspired and obsessed by the main character with a romantic subtext. Are abused children of the evil team leader. Brainwashed most of their lives. Dislike Pokemon battles. Travel for a distant region for soul searching. The biggest difference is that N was more antagonistic while Lillie was a helpless damsel.

>>32628217
>zinnia best
/vp/ is completely retarded when talking about her but she's not the best.

>eusine forgetable
Literally the first trainer that's there solely for plot reasons and not part of the usual leader/prof/rival/villain pack. He's not forgetable at all.

>>32628322
>>32628360
You're both pretty gay as fuck desu.

>>32628163
Lillie is just shit overall. You don't need to compare her to anyone to see that.

>>32628273
who cares, N is not nearly as annoying and obtrusive as Lillie and actually battles me as opposed to needing to be babied. I'll gladly take a character that battles me as opposed to someone who solely vomits exposition

>>32629035
>tying everything in the region to one story
>being the secret mastermind of the main plot
>battling you after Rayquaza has accepted you
>not bad

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>defending lillie
>ever mentioning the worst part of oras
Get the fuck out. This is a shit-girl free board.

>>32628386
Manga zinnia is closer to what /vp/ thinks game zinnia is so either the answer is yes and kusaka wanted to be faithful to his headcanon or we cant know the answer.

>>32628490
>>32628490
> 30 more minutes of story
>why do people get so buttmad over Zinnia being introduced
You answered your own question.

>>32629084
The fact that you didn't like them doesn't make them bad anon.

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>she's anime girl and cute and shit
>she appears a lot so she's a shit character
>she's [insert an objectively wrong statement here] so she's shit
>she's shit
Is this the extant Lillie haters can argue up to? I wasn't expecting much, but this is just pathetic.

>>32629134
quoting an imaginary strawman doesn't make you right desu

>>32629124
>talking in absolutes
of course it's bad if I dont like it. To me.

>>32629060
Her motivation being inadequate like the majority of Pokemon antagonists doesn't prove her likeness to Eusine, the OP's image makes her out to be space Hitler carbon copy version of Eusine, I am arguing that the meme image hardly proves any of that,you can say that Ghetsis is like Eusine but worse because he wanted to find a legendary for political reasons,

>>32629124
>The fact that you like them doesn't make them good anon.
ftfy

>>32629134
>expecting actual character critisicm from the same fanbase that worships ash

>>32629134
>objectively wrong statement
you arent doing lillie fans any favors

>>32629032
Like this one. But very rarely, we do get good threads, we just need enough people to see them and realise its a possible thing to do

>>32629142
No, that just means you didnt like it. Dont mix subjectivity with objectivity.

>>32629147
Who are you quoting?

>>32629158
He's not wrong. Some have actually made statements that are factually incorrect about Lillie.

>>32629169
Like what? Genuinely curious, I don't remember much about Lillie since I haven't played the game in months.

>>32629134
She's boring and pokemon doesn't need a plot outside of fighting the league.

>>32629145
the game doesnt treat her like an antagonist, and the image doesnt treat her like anything close to space hitler. The image doesnt even make them out to be exactly the same. Or close to the same.

If you could make several comparisons between Ghestis and Eusine based on actions they take that are similar or opposite, it would be valid. So I agree there

>>32629197
You have your anime for that.

>>32629165
Nobody has mixed them up here, unless you think people need to put "in my opinion" on every opinion

>>32629175
Just to point out a recent one, this anon >>32629011 said Lillie just "expected everything to be solved for her like a damsel in distress". On the contrary, she does everything she can to help others. Like saving Nebby in the beginning, going through ruins all alone, not asking any help or resigning herself to Team Skull to protect Hau She's just powerless, so she ends up receiving help a lot, but she doesn't expect it. She knows she's weak, so she was grateful to anyone who put up with them, and felt bad that they had to. In return, she treated them as nicely as she could, did EVERYTHING she possibly could to help them, putting them before her own safety.

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This thread is so tsundere
Just fuck already

>>32628871
It's dangerous, doesn't mean all of them are dangerous. For sure you will never walk on the jungle one with no protection but there's rare case of children who are raised by animals like bears or even wolves. N is one of those cases.

>>32629212
Yes he did, "its bad" its objective, "I dont like it" is subjective. He corrected me when I implied something is not bad by saying >not bad, therefore making this about objectivity. Then he invoked subjectivity mixing the two.

Also, if you're gonna invoke "muh opinions, muh entitlement" you lose your right to correct anyone else. Pick a criteria and go with it.

>>32628902
>They seem be be one of the less cancerous waifufags
They're not as bad as they once were but around the time the game came out they were fucking insane about it. They've slowly started vanishing but there are still the retards who make the "Chicken-chan and Lillie are gay!!!!" threads every other day.

>>32629152
Lol not everybody worships ash I hate him and that retarded anime

>>32629278
We're a minority though.

>>32629270
>Chicken-chan and Lillie are gay!!!!
Everyone hates those. Including Lilliefags.

>>32629253
Are you saying it is not possible to subjectively find something bad? You're working with semantics

>>32629290
>>32629290
That just means you dont like it.

>le semantics
Typical card by the losing side anon.

But if that's not enough read the entire post you're replying to.

>>32629298
Yes, I know what it means, the entire point is that I understand that the entire discussion is subjective. You're coming into a thread where everyone is arguing opinions and complaining about the use of facts that arent there

>>32629318
>Yes, I know what it means
You literally said it means the opposite.

>the entire point is that I understand that the entire discussion is subjective.
There's no subjective discussion. Again, if you think that, you can't correct anything, that'd be objectivity's domain. You cant say my opinion is wrong if it csnt he wrong.

>You're coming into a thread where everyone is arguing opinions and complaining about the use of facts that arent there
I don't even know what you mean with this.

>>32629278
>>32629285
People worship Ash? Where? All I ever see are people shitting on him, though I don't go in the anime threads.

>>32629219
Care to address this post: >>32628371
No one said anything about its points, was wondering if it flew under the radar.

>>32629397
The pokemon fanbase is very dedicated to it. There are plenty of anime threads even outside /vp/. I stumbled upon t ashfags on freaking /m/.

>I dont go to anime threads
By that logic a person can say no one likes pokemon if he doesnt go to pokemon sites.

>>32629397
Yeah you are right. The only ones who worship him are amourshitters and the retarded adults who watch the anime.

>>32629419
Which are a significant group in the pokemon fanbase. Enough for the show to go on without major changes at the very least.

>>32629412
The point it's too long but I can answer later when I arrive home. Anyway some people replied to this post with good arguments, that the poster just ignored.

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>>32629134
What people hate is Lillie's idea. Not her character. The idea of their being a character. These people don't want a character. They want fighters, and nothing more. If she doesn't fight, she's a waste of their time, and thus they hate her. They just want battles, and nothing more. Since these people also lack the mental capacity to understand this, they just call her a bad "character". Because they can't differentiate between those two.

Yes, it is pathetic. But it is what it is. You pointing it out isn't going to make them any less pathetic. All you can do is just deal with it and hope GF doesn't listen to this type of people.

>>32629433
Lol sorry I thought it was another post that said how Lillie is awesome and N was a bad character because he was raised by Pokemon and walked on the grass and other bullshit like that.
I agree Lillie is a generic anime girl. She's not terrible, but super annoying.

>>32629440
This

>>32629459
>walk in grass
So do most pokemon characters, its a big part of the franchise.

Actually irl people also walk on grass.

>>32629440
you're a retard

>>32629470
Shut? I don't agree with the "N is a bad character because he walk in the grass" argument. Actually I found it really retarded and without context.

>>32629134
>>32629440
>>32629463
aka Lillie shills

>>32629470
I think he's referring to the post that mentions how unrealistic it is that N was raised by Pokemon, who attack you the moment you step in tall grass. Children are forbidden from going near wild Pokemon, because they're dangerous, but N seemingly lived among them. As a really small kid.

>>32629440
I think people are allowed to dislike Lillie character without being "durrr she needs to be a powerful battler". Read the thread and you will understand why people dislike her.

>>32629724
>Read the thread
Read the post I replied to.

>>32629512
what a well formulated argument. Is that all you got?

>>32629665
also, the pokemon who raised him hated humans. Why would they take care of one? N is a walking, talking piece of lore rape and should be best forgotten. Even Zinnia has more development and likeable traits.

>>32629752
Ok, that's clearly a bait, because Zinnia doesn't even have a development.

>>32629752
I don't think this was ever mentioned. The most you get was that Ghetsis exposed him to Pokemon that were abused and that he knew of them growing up. It's not clear if he was raised by Pokemon who explicitly hated humans.

>>32629665
Yeah, I figured. But without context its kinda silly.

>>32629759
If they didn't, then he has been exposed to Pokemon that had normal relationship with humans, thus making everything Ghetsis does pointless. So it MUST be the case, otherwise, it doesn't make any sense.

>>32629152
>the same fanbase that worships ash

maybe before BURASTO and afterwards SM

>>32629776
>maybe before BURASTO
The faggots cry about it to this day, calling Alan a Gary Stu because he beat Ash, how it was all bullshit, how Kalos League was the most bullshit league yet, and so on and so forth.

>afterwards SM
They still worship him just the same. Now, Ash "acts like a kid" and "has a personality" so he's pretty much the best Ash yet for them.

>>32629440
Honestly it's not the character or the idea that's bad, it's the execution.
If they cut the amount of Lillie cutscenes in half, I probably wouldn't have the hateboner I do for Lillie. She still wouldn't do anything in the plot, but she wouldn't be constantly grinding the game to a halt.
I dislike what Lillie did to the game's pacing, and that's less a problem with the character and more SM's structure, but Lillie's interruptions are still more frequent and more often completely pointless than any other character in the game which is why I give her the brunt of the blame.

>>32629412
Sure.

>>32628371
>Lillie stops you constantly but it's somehow supposed to be endearing just because she's an anime girl?
No, it is because she IS endearing. She's a nice character who is tries her best at everything despite being powerless and treats everyone nicely. And because of that, others treat her nicely.
Also, the "anime girl" argument again. Going to ignore that from this point forward, as they literally mean nothing.

>never contributes anything to the plot in most of them
>Lillie is never proactive to the plot
>she just stumbles from place to place without purpose
No, she is the main force moving the plot forward. Without her, there would be no plot. She starts contributing to it from the very beginning, stealing Nebby and setting everything in motion, and does so to the very end, being the one who takes care of the box legend and evolves it. And not a single thing she does at ANY point is without purpose. So, these one falls under that factually incorrect category of "arguments".

>Lillie's entire stake in the plot is "I'm related to the person doing these things!"
Which, in turn, puts her in an important position. The related part isn't just to make Lillie special. It's to give her good development. She COULD be just a random girl who got Nebby and wants to explore ruins, but that would be worse. For her character and for the plot, as it would include randomness. But her being related to Lusamine gave her a controlled past, which lead to her having a reserved personality, which lead to the entirety of her development, breaking free and becoming happier and confident.
As Ohmori himself put it, "when the story begins, Lillie has the characteristics of the "moon". Over time, Lillie moves away from being the moon, and becomes the sun, shining with light.". And that's possible because she started out where she did. All the while keep her nice and caring personality. And that is why people like her. Without good characters, the plot is pointless.

>>32629776
Always. It never ends. Even if they get "disspointed" just tell them you hate the anime and they'll jump and defend it at the first chance. Not sure why this is contested this much, did sun and moon bring that many new fans to the franchise?

>>32629735
Read the thread.

>>32629864
Yeah those guys are really annoying.

>>32629856
>Without good characters, the plot is pointless.
These people don't understand that. These are the people who liked Eva for the Angel battles, and everything that didn't directly contribute to them was annoying and a waste of time.

>>32629440
literally "me, an intellectual" the post.

>>32629744
>everyone who disagrees with me is deluded and only dislikes her because this reason I made up

This retardation does not deserve effort

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>>32629856
>No, it is because she IS endearing.
I disagree but I suppose it's subjective.
As to my bringing up that she's an anime girl, I sincerely believe Lillie would not have so many devoted fans (not necessarily fans in general, but rabid ones) if she were a male or if she were ugly.
>she is the main force moving the plot forward
Bull fucking shit. You are right that her stealing Nebby sets off the plot, but everything else that happens around her is incidental. Things just happen around her. And a lot of the cutscenes I claim are "pointless" don't do anything but reinforce her personality traits. Those are the ones I would remove to clarify what I meant in my post >>32629818 here. I don't play Pokémon for the story, I play for the exploration and battles (and postgame but we're not allowed to have that anymore), and the constant pointless cutscnes got in the way of that so heavily that I had to force myself not to drop the game, and toward the end of the game the cutscenes are almost 100% Lillie. I'm never going to replay SM unless someone makes a "no story" hack, which is unlikely given how undeveloped the hacking community is for Gen 4 and beyond.
>She COULD be just a random girl who got Nebby and wants to explore ruins, but that would be worse.
That's because the only stake Lillie has in the plot is her relations. Like you said, if she didn't have that she'd be random and have no interest in the plot at all.
>>32629901
If you're comparing the writing of a Game Freak game to fucking Eva I don't know how to express how much I disagree with said comparison.

I do want to stress that it's not any aspect of the character in a vacuum that makes me really dislike Lillie, it's just the fact that she won't fucking go away and she's constantly preventing me from actually playing Pokémon like I bought the game to do. As I said in >>32629818 all the "friend" characters have this problem, Lillie's are just by far the most frequent because she never even battles you.

>>32629856
>No, she is the main force moving the plot forward
with her presence, but not by actually doing anything. The plot moves around her because she is central to it, but she doesnt actually do anything between the beginning of the game and near the end around the third/fourth island

>>32629818
Actually, her character development is something I'd like people to question a bit more because it's strange that she doesn't open up until (You) and Hau appear. She's apparently with Kukui for over two months before you show up and Kukui studies Pokemon moves in battles. After two months with him she's still not acclimated to battles and still doesn't like them? Kukui mentions every now and then about battles, bonds, and moves - why is Lillie still reluctant to battle? You're telling me she wasn't receptive to this for two months? I think that's pushing it and while I know they do this for the story it's still strange.

>>32628822
actually the fact that he was a baby helps in both your first and second points. animals can recognize babies even if they're another species and have been know to raise abandoned young. learning a language is much easier the earlier you start. im more surprised he could speak whatever language the humans could. feral children and kids raised by dog packs can't really communicate with people, they just make weird sounds and dog noises. but im guessing he was visited by humans periodically.

>>32630162
that's why. among other things, it's implied she is in love with the main character, the feelings triggered a behavioral change in Lillie.

>>32628273
The only correct answer

>>32629724
>reads the thread
all Lillie hatred is about
>"muh cutscenes"
>"she does nothing to help us"
>"Her role is exclusively about being a damsel in distress"

So >>32629440 is totally right

>>32630162
Hau and MC are closer to Lillie in age, while Kukui is a fully grown adult, of course she's going to relate better to her peers. Two months after running away from your home is hardly enough time for a 12 year old to completely acclimate to a new lifestyle. Especially since her entire life those sorts of things were likely rare for her to see and often presented as bad things.

>>32630035
>everything else that happens around her is incidental
>Things just happen around her
Give examples. Because it doesn't happen. There's nothing "just happening around her", almost everything happens BECAUSE of her.
Asking me to list every single one of those instances is unreasonable, because that's listing the entire game, so instead, you give some examples where her involvement is pointless. Where something just happens "around her", rather than because of her.

>a lot of the cutscenes I claim are "pointless" don't do anything but reinforce her personality traits
Again, examples would be nice, rather than making claims and hoping others believe them.

>That's because the only stake Lillie has in the plot is her relations.
Yeah, because that's how she was written. What are you even insinuating here? That if she wasn't written to be connected to Lusamine, there's no other way she could be written? And what does that have to do wit anything? That she COULD be really shit?

>>32632419
lol no, he is not right. the content of his post is that people dislike her because they are domb and dislike story in pokemon games, and thats not true

>>32632419
>ad
>all Lillie hatred is about
>>"muh cutscenes"
>>"she does nothing to help us"
>>"Her role is exclusively about being a damsel in distress"
None of those are bad arguments though.

His post implies some sort of delusion or lower intelligence relating to not liking Lillie, which is the sort of thing people talk about when they say Lilliefags are the worst. It's fitting he posted a Gardevoir reaction image

>>32632584
Not him but I really dislike when someone gives no examples for their own arguments, then it gets to a point in the discussion where they are suddenly asking the other person for examples of every single word in their post.

I can think of several cutscenes on the first two islands where nothing happens. One where you are going on your trial and the game stops just so she can say goodbye, One early on where she stops you to say come along, then stops you again once you get next to her, just to go back to Iki Town

Every interaction with her for at least the first two thirds of the game has a moment where her bag moves or Nebby comes out, since GF thinks repetition means the character looks better (see: the ending cutscene) and it was all unecessary.

Even if what you say about her is true in theory, GF executed it badly

>>32636273
Agree. The problem with Lille is that the cutscenes don't flow. The pace of the plot is broken just to focus on Lillie, and it's bad storytelling. It's almost like she is shoved in our throats instead of feeling like a natural character on the plot.
She is not terrible like Shauna for example, but her character is not interesting enough to have much cutscenes with no content. I don't like her, my main character don't return her feeling, shit.

hey, my thread's still up

>>32628510
This makes my penis the big penis.

>>32628317
>>32628397
>>32628776
>Anyone who voices opinons that differ from mine is a whiny faggot
Sincerely kill yourself, you manbabies.

>>32629134
>she appears a lot so she's a shit character
Imagine playing R/B/Y and being interrupted by story shit 3 times for 3 minutes between every gym. Sun and Moon are shit by themselves, but Lillie is responsible for more than half of the cutscenes. And to add to that, her biggest accomplishments are crossing a bridge and telling her mom to go fuck herself. Just because you think there are no flaws with her, doesn't mean you can find anything positive at all.

>>32636273
>but I really dislike when someone gives no examples for their own arguments, then it gets to a point in the discussion where they are suddenly asking the other person for examples
Yeah, I agree. That would be a shit move. But those were claims that REQUIRED examples. The argument literally cannot move if you don't give example when making such claims. That would be asking to refute a point, without making a point, to make a counterargument, without providing an argument.

As for the examples you did provide, they did have a clear point. The one where she stops you before Trail, if this is the time right after you battle Team Skull and Ilima, then at that point, she tells you about the history of Trails as well as presenting the idea that Tapu Koko saved you and Nebby for a reason, rather than just because he's a Guardian. As for the multiple encounters in Iki Town, again you're provided with new information about something each time. I'm not exactly sure which part are you referring to here, so I'm assuming it's the part when Kukui sent her to call you.

As for the repetition part, that is there because Nebby DOES come out of the bag often. That's part of its character. Instead of just mentioning it once and being done with it, they show it you. To make it believable. This type of repetition is present in literally every story. It would be a bad thing if was just that. But it's not. Nebby leaving the bag is just a conversation starter. Every time Nebby appears, you're provided with more information, and the plot and/or characters move forward a bit. You can't call that an inherently bad thing or bad writing.

As for the number of cutscenes, that's a fair argument. It disrupts the gameplay. But that's a problem with the pacing and execution of the game. The pacing of the character development and plot was just fine. Gameplay, maybe not. But that's the gameplay, an entirely separate thing. It might make SM overall worse, it doesn't affect the writing.

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>>32628975

>As another anon put it, N is the Ash of the games.
>Shit, retarded, lacks a personality beyond "Pokemon", the perfect Mary Sue, chosen hero, the purest of all life forms, and no matter what he does, he'll always be forgiven, but despite all of this, he's still ridiculously popular.

I thought this thread was about N and Lillie.

Not Red.

>>32639481
cringey drawing

>>32639412
I think the problem with examples though is that it's unlikely that either of us remembers things closely enough to explain where we mean and make the other person get it, because I really dont remember those things leading to new information. In the second thing, I meant after the Tapu cutscene where you're going back to town. After the cutscene, there's one where she says "let's go down" followed by one a few seconds later where you actually go down.

>Every time Nebby appears, you're provided with more information
This absolutely not true. And this isnt a situation of extremes, it is entirely possible to find a middle ground between once and every single chance you possibly can. And yes, it is bad writing if they have a story but present it in a poor way.

>The pacing of the character development and plot was just fine
No, I didnt think that was good either to be honest. But that's a separate discussion.

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>>32639412
>Nebby leaving the bag is just a conversation starter.
I starter to a conversation I don't want to have.