Who did it better?

>>31852886
Ghetsis as his plan didn't end up for him becoming High in a different dimension

>>31852886
dad did
he's a real pokemon master
and he'll be back soon
I just know it

>Didn't give a shit about Lusamine, wanted her to rot in UltraHell for her actions, only forced to save her because of Lillie
>Gave a shit about Ghetsis and his plans, wanted to end him, and comes back for round two, both with great teams
Ghetsis is based.
What would happen if they raised a child though

>>31852886
I like Lusamine better actually. Didn't have some generic "take over the world" goal most villains have.

>>31852928
They did, she had an affair with the PokePelago guy and she's N's mom, that's why she's all high tech cause she used to live in the Metropolis of Unova

>>31852886
Lusamine did it better.
Ghetsis was very generic.
Lusamine was more interesting and felt more of a cunt, and a much better battle theme as well.

>>31852940
I rather have a good antagonist with a generic goal over "I hate my children, I'm off tot he Ultra Space and live there!"

>>31853102
>Lusamine was more interesting and felt more of a cunt
Except for the part where they decided she was good all along and it was the evil space jellyfishes' fault.
>and a much better battle theme as well.
Objectively false.

>>31853102
Found the mysogynist.

>>31853119
>good antagonist
>generic goal
You people will do mental aerobic gymnastics to make gen 5 not seem basic.

>>31853102
Ghetsis was smarter, had a better fucking team, was more antagonizing. And his plan revolved around N and you having to become Pokemon League champions, because in that region being champion tied in with the legendary Pokemon.
Also, he's persistent and makes a Neo Team Plasma after he failed the first time. He had a backup plan.

>>31852886
Lusamine is a more interesting character, but Ghetsis makes a better antagonist overall.

I like them both though.

>>31853120
BW did music the worst.
GarageBand electronic beats aged worse than Gens 1 and 2.

>>31853135
>mental gymnastics

You can boil any point to be fucking generic. It all depends in how it's executed and Ghetsis did pretty well for a Pokemon antagonist. Better than fucking Ruby and Sapphire's eco terrorist and Cyrus' and Lysandre's world destruction

ghetsis laying into n felt way more brutal than lusamine laying into lillie, but idk if it actually was

>>31853163
Doing it better than those 4 is opinion.
Him having a generic take over the world goal is fact.
Sorry, not everyone has to pretend BW was anything above being boring and mediocre.

>>31853163
Cyrus is the best Pokemon villain, his plan is fairly well thought out (especially in Platinum), he's threatening, and he has some complexity to his character.

>>31853163
While I do think Marie and Archie's goals were stupid. They were original at least.

>>31853135
>unique motive = good villain
Stop this meme. Archie and Maxie, for all intents and purposes, had very interesting plots; they didn't want to control the world, they just wanted what was best for pokemon/humanity, and went too far off the deep end in their pursuit of their goals. Hell, Archer and co. technically weren't after world domination either, their only plan at the time was reuniting with their former boss. And those three are generally agreed to be the worst villains in the franchise (at least, in Magma/Aqua's case, their RSE incarnations).

You don't need to have an incredibly intricate backstory and scheme to have an effective villain. Ghetsis just wanted power. So what? Is that supposed to make him any less threatening when he goes against you in the climax of the Unova games? He's menacing, intelligent, nihilistic, and still retains his position as the toughest villain boss in the mainline games, which, in my opinion, makes up for his lack of some needlessly contrived plot.

>>31853223
*Maxie dammit

>>31853190
>Doing it better than those 4 is opinion.
>pretend BW was anything above being boring and mediocre

this whole fucking thread is about opinions. and your's sucks. you didn't even say how having a generic world domination goal takes away from his feats and planning ahead as an antagonizing figure

>>31852886
One is an madman with unrealistic goal, who is evil for the sake of being evil.
Other if Pokemon version of Ragyo.

Yeah, I'll pick the latter. Not to say I dislike Ghetsis. But if I was to write a story myself, I know I wouldn't let a character like Ghetsis come anywhere near it.

>>31853233
Archie is shit even in ORAS. Maxie is saved a bit though.

>>31853293
>unrealistic
>manipulated son into becoming Champion, gain influence to make trainers release so many Pokemon
>Took over a legendary and actually had control over Kyurem
>froze a city

He was pretty close to his goal.
Only Cyrus was as close to getting what he wanted
But you can keep whining about how he's still bad because he's "generic" and you can't think for yourself and have the common decency to say you don't like something because you thought he was lame.

>>31853293
>who is evil for the sake of being evil

So? How is this inherently bad?
this doesn't take away from an antagonist being well made. Some are made to be so evil to bring out a stronger contrast between it and the protagonists.

>>31853317
Finding a random kid, spending years trying to brainwash him into believing something he will, without a doubt, realize is bullshit, hoping this kid will awaken a Legendary and then hoping everyone will listen to his demands. Is that not the least bit unrealistic to you?
Not to mention, he wanted to try hacking all PCs. There was no guarantee this was even possible, but he put years into that too. And somehow had funding for all of this, and while he was going about being evil, he just, again, hoped no one would stop him before he got the Legendary. His plan was so full of holes it's not even funny.

Not going to say that about BW2 Ghetsis though. He had a Legendary cannon, he used it to destroy anyone who stood in his way. That's a good plan.

>>31853330
No, but if I had the choice between a villain who is evil for the sake of being evil, and a villain with slightly more interesting personality, I'd pick latter. The first can work, but the second can work even better.

>>31853385
>Finding a random kid, spending years trying to brainwash him into believing something he will, without a doubt, realize is bullshit, hoping this kid will awaken a Legendary and then hoping everyone will listen to his demands. Is that not the least bit unrealistic to you?

Did he not fucking achieve it?

>>31853477
Through the ridiculousness of BW plot, yes. But that doesn't make it any less unrealistic. That's like saying harem protagonists actually have great personality because girls are attracted to them.

>>31852886
Ghestis is the shittiest villain full stop, so, Lusamine.

Ghetsis may have had a stupid plan, but it was still a plan and he was actually the fucking final boss with an extremely dangerous ace monster.

Lusamine had no plan, and the game went out of its way to constantly excuse her actions because she's hot. (it was the Nihilego toxins!) She transforms into a monster for no reason and her ace monster is Bewear, which is cute as a personality gag but ultimately not a threat.

>>31853583
>it was the Nihilego toxins!
That's just headcanon. It was never said that she originally became crazy with Nihilego's poison. Instead, the game suggests that she just became obsessed with Ultra Beasts when she was researching to find Mohn.

>>31853518
Come on. It's a Pokemon game. There should be at least some commonly held suspension of disbelief

Ghetsis literally only failed the first time because he didn't take into account N's love of epic drama that would lead to him encouraging the protagonist to awaken and capture the other dragon so they could recreate the ancient battle of two kings. Had he not allowed the protagonist to reach equal footing, Ghetsis would be comfortably ruling Unova. Even then, he definitely accounted for the possibility of having to fight zekrom or reshiram- his hydreigon is kitted out almost specifically to beat either dragon when you face him. The guy was prepared for almost any contingency and had a more grounded plan in general than any other villain besides Giovanni. The whole thing was the equivalent of an insane combination of PETA and gun control lobbying that would have lead to Plasma having zero opposition precisely because people asked for it.

Compare that with a loony jellyfish cunt that hates her kids and wants to fuck space monsters and there is no comparison. She gets points for being the first female team boss though.

>>31853626
I still don't understand the point you're trying to make. Yes, he's good by Pokemon standards. But that has nothing to do with anything. My point is that his entire plan was unrealistic and isn't something I would include in a story.

If I must pick one antagonist, I will pick BW2 Ghetsis, Maxie, even Lysandre, and obviously Lusamine over him. That was the point of the thread. Pick between Lusamine and Ghetsis. I find more than half Ghetsis' actions unreasonable, thus think he was that good.

>>31853523
This.
Archie and Maxie were stupid too, but at least there was a sense of humor to them.
Ghetsis has no redeeming qualities outside of his final battle in BW.

>>31853686
Forgot to add Giovanni in the list. While Archer also had a better plan, he failed at the first step. He wasn't threatening. Ghetsis is a lot better than him.

Ghetsis did nothing wrong.
Unova belonged to him anyway because he is from the Harmonia royal family.
He also raised six orphans. Truly a saint

>>31853125
She was a bitch, deal with it anon

>>31853806
ghetsis pls go

>>31853306
Archie has a personality and some development, he's pretty good as far as Pokemon characters go. Plus he's a bro.

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>>31853102
>Lusamine was more interesting
>Interesting

Nothing says "I'm a fuckboy" like describing a female character as interesting.

Be honest, you only like her because she has a vagina and looks 20 even though she's suppose to be over 40.

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>>31854265
>Nothing says "I'm a fuckboy" like describing a female character as interesting.
I see you're one of those people.

>>31854311
way to avoid his second point

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>>31853806
>He also raised six orphans. Truly a saint
Is this some "Pryce was evil and raised Karen, Will, Green, and Silver as well as not-Archer and not-Ariana" manga bullshit because all I remember is N and his two cumdumpsters.

>>31854392
The Shadow Triad man.

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>>31852974
>mfw that make so much sense its scary

>>31854265
I'm gay, she's more interesting because she's not as cliche as Ghetsis.
P.S. only hetero """men""" can be fuccbois.

>>31854265
Are you really denying that Lusamine is more interesting than Ghetsis?

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>>31854689
>Are you really denying that Lusamine is more interesting than Ghetsis?

Yes, because being "interesting" is about as far as Lusamine fans ever go when describing or defending her.

>>31854849
Ghetsis is a cliche as fuck villain with no depth. Almost anything is more interesting than that, Lusamine pretty easily beats out Ghetsis in that aspect.

>>31854849
And yet you've offered no description or defense of Ghestis. I'll offer one now: "badGiovanni"

>>31854849
Lusamine was caring and kind and lived happily with her family, but suddenly her husband disappeared. She couldn't take that, and started looking into how he disappeared personally. She found his research and realized he was probably taken swallowed by an Ultra Wormhole.
This is where her change begins. She spends all her time researching Ultra Beasts, and slowly beings losing her mind. Over the course of a few years, she becomes completely crazy, obsessed with beauty. She creates Null and realizes Cosmog can be used, and pretty much forces her kids to watch those Pokemon suffer. They aren't allowed to speak, but appreciate what's happening and makes them her puppets. Gladion, not being able to take it, takes Null and runs away, which makes her even worse. Slowly falling into madness, she gets to the point she was willing to kill Cosmog, her only method to research Ultra Wormhole, in hopes it'll open one.

This is Lusamine before the game even starts. Lusamine is a vain and proud women, bathed in beauty. She was shown to have an unbreakable will and a strong devotion to the Beauty and Ultra Beasts, ready to give her body to those things. All the while being a realistic person.

Ghetsis isn't even worth comparing to her.

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>>31855038
Then they took a steaming hot shit over all of that by having Mohn still alive.

Ghetsis was a better villain because they didn't try to turn him into a tragic one at the last minute with a last minute change of heart, it was just the toxins, or some post game dialog that ruins eveything.

>>31855251
i just like to bait the post , the thread, your life

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>>31852974
>mfw

>>31852886
All the interesting depth was in N, not his sack of shit generic villain father, so lusamine.

>>31852974
YAMEROOOOOOOO

>>31854689
Can I call them both uninteresting? Ghetsis is generic beyond muh child manipulation and Lusamine should really have had a larger affect on the region (but for some reason didn't).

>>31855849
>Lusamine should really have had a larger affect on the region (but for some reason didn't).

She didn't even have an effect in her own home. I spoke to everyone in Aether paradise after she fucked off to U space and everyone including Aether emloyees just fed me the same lines they did back when everything was all peaceful.

>>31855849
I feel the same way, they're both bad to me. However, with Ghetsis I felt a need to stop him. With Lusamine, once she fucked off to Ultraspace, I had no motivation to bring her back. Lillie wanted her back and so I was forced to save someone from a karmatic end.
That's just how I felt, anyways, not trying to force it upon anyone.

>>31854320
>Be honest, you only like her because she has a vagina and looks 20 even though she's suppose to be over 40.
this isn't even a point, it's just projection: the experience

>>31853659
This.

Even with the Totem thing on Lusamine's team, Ghetsis's team still being a fucking nightmare.