>m-muh stall >don't ban dugtrio

>>31769048
This guy is a joke, here are some of his recommended wallbreakers to deal with Dugtrio
>shed shell heatran
>seismitoad
>fucking manaphy
>growth venusaur
>z happy hour jirachi
>serp
All of which fall under one of two categories: don't actually break any walls on stall or are completely fucking useless outside of the stall matchup. He also recommends hail to break duggy's sash.

>>31769048
>without arena trap stall is dead
Sign me the fuck up

>>31769048
>Stall Dies
This is actualy something good, I love Dugtrio but damn, that is good news.

>>31769048
>without arena trap stall dies
That's a good thing.

>>31769123
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYjv8ogsEGE

>>31769123
>>31769154
>>31769155

No you faggots, stall is a neccessary part of the metagame.

You can't have one playstyle dominating, all three have to be equally viable. There has to be variety in the metagame.

>>31769165
And yet Smogonfags such as you ban playstyles such as baton passing and evasion.

You disgusting hypocrites.

>>31769165
>spot the stallfag

I said it once and I'll say it again: stall is not a legitimate playstyle. It turns Pokemon into a glorified endurance test that removes any element of "game" from the game.

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>>31769165
Stall isn't fun to play as or against

>>31769179

Evasion is not a playstyle. It's a diceroll.

>tfw can't ensure chansey dies after they ban duggy
Fuck ABR or whoever started using Dug-stall in gen6.
Yes it was a thing before that but it didn't get banned back then.

>>31769123
>>31769154
Stall won't die with Dugtrio gone, but with Dugtrio gone Stall players might have to interact with the opponent somewhat, or god forbid have to make some kind of decision, which is completely against the Stall playstyle.

>>31769165
I don't understand this argument. I can understand defensive playstyles, but you can cover that with Balance or tweaking BO. Stall is more matchup based than anything. In my experience with Offense, giving Stall a free turn absolutely cripples you. They get off toxic, hazards, etc while they can heal off anything bad that happens to them. It essentially comes down to Offense playing high risk with low reward and Stall playing low risk with high reward.

>>31769181
>stall is not a legitimate playstyle.

Pokemon like Chansey exist for a reason, so yes it is

If stall weren't a legitimate playstyle, defensively-oriented Pokemon and moves wouldn't exist

Just ban Chansey, that will remove stall. Should have been banned in gen3 along with Blissey and kept in Uber.

>>31769200
Chansey's normal role isn't stalling though, it's a blanket sponge for special attacks that can spread status and set up hazard. Other defensive Pokemon fill similar roles.

There's a huge difference between running defensive tanks and having an entire playstyle built around not attacking.

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>>31769165
>copypasted stall teams of six pokemon that always run the same set dominating high ladder
>variety
you must be legitimately autistic if that's your idea of variety

So instead of doing something about lando, you're trying to invalidate a playstyle instead.

Fascinating priorities in the smogon community.

>>31769249
I'd take one omnipresent poke over seeing teams made of the same six pokes all the time any day

I'm not even a smogonfag

>>31769211
>t: sub 1100 elo shitter

Chansey isn't the problem. Like, not even remotely. It's mostly Mega Sableye, namely the combination of Mega Sab+Chansey+Tangrowth+Skarm+Quagsire+Shedinja+Dugtrio+Toxapex+etc that allows the player to pivot indefinitely in order to create an effectively endless battle.

>>31769249
>Very good /= Too good

>>31769263
I've been ranked higher than you ever will plenty of times and no, the Chansey line has been cancering up the tiers for generations, if you remove them then stall immediately stops existing.
Mega Sableye is obnoxious and a powerful stall tool but it isn't the center of the problem, it's the Chansey line literally being a free switch to almost every special attacker

how about no bans at all
fuck smogon

>>31769249
Except every one who isn't a retard knows Lando isn't a problem

>>31769198
>Stall players might have to interact with the opponent somewhat
That's literally what will kill Stall.

Stall's purpose is to be as mind numbing and robotic as possible.

Why else are all Stall teams the same 6 copy&paste Pokemon and why every Stall play just spams commands with little to no thought to inputs?

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>>31769288
Sure thing bro, just let me get my team of Mega Fug, Funbro, and four Arceuses ready

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>plays a shitty fan made format that is impossible to play online outside of a shitty website emulating pokemon battles
>the only interesting thing about this format is that it allow very defensive playstiles and teams
>complain when said teams are used
I don't get smogonfags, if you want an offensive playstile, play a good format

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>>31769288
FUCK THE SMOGONFAGS! STICK TO YOUR BROS, /vp/OREONS!

>>31769287
t. 1100 shitter still

>>31769317
>I've been ranked higher than you ever will plenty of times
>Calls me 1100 shitter
>Admits to being sub 1100
kek

>>31769306
>in game pokemon
>caring about smogon rules
???

>>31769181
Seriously, when 'stall until the opponent needs to leave/sleep/eat' is an actual fucking win condition, you know it's fucking cancerous.

>>31769328
>still thinking chansey/blissey have ever been an actual problem to the metagame
again, you're still 1100, maybe 1200.

>>31769048
What do you expect? Suspect threads are fucking cancer.

They're supposed to be a forum where every member of the community can post their thoughts and have their voice heard. A place where you can discuss the suspect, share opinions, and reach a consensus - especially for those that have yet do decide where they stand.

Instead, everyone's corrupt. Top players have an agenda to push, everyone's already made up their mind, people post overblown shock posts instead of talking to each other, half the people there don't know what they're talking about, and some of the voters don't even post.

> I'm shit at the game
> So I play stall for easy wins
> What? Dugtrio suspect?
> But that'd hurt stall!
> My wins are at stake!
> I know, I'll post in the suspect thread
> I'll pretend to care about the meta and the suspect process while posting shit
> Dugtrio isn't the problem!
> Dugtrio has been around for years. It hasn't been banned before, so you can't ban it now!
> I'll try to derail the thread so nobody talks about banning Dugtrio!
> It's irresponsible to ban Dugtrio because stall is an important part of the meta or something
> As a tiering leader, I say that you can NOT vote to ban Dugtrio with a clear conscience unless you've played stall for 5 years and have the necessary experience to vote on it

>>31769374
>Thinking they weren't
Gen6 was your first comp gen right?

>>31769165
"I'm the voice of reason! Shut up and listen to me! You can't do what you want, you have to do it my way. We need stall because I say so. There's some thing about metagame health that you're all ignoring. I know what's best. Listen to me."

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>another dugtrio shitposting thread

>>31769306
God knows how old this is but I guess this was made when the creator was not aware of ability capsules.

>>31769306

This has to be the most autistic thing I've seen on a while. Holy shit.

>>31769634
>>31769637
This is low quality bait hoes, Sand Veil wasn't even banned in gen 6

Literally all you need is a Naive Typhlosion with Rockium Z, Rock Slide, Fire Blast, Blast Burn, and Solar Beam.

>>31769087
Manaphy can break stall and isn't useless.

>>31769292
le healthy meta lion is not overcentralizing eggs dee

objectively, you're not wrong. it isn't a problem inherently. but i would argue that it just isn't very fun to play against, and to an extent, over-centralizes the metagame. seeing a Landorus more than 44 times out of 100 battles is only slightly less boring then fighting stall.

>>31769305
Such as?

>inb4 VGCtard

>>31769738
Seeing teams without Landorus would be worse. Because it compresses so many roles, if we removed it from the game teams would be looking way more similar.

>>31769701
Walled by Clef and Pex

>>31769808
I'd say banning would add and remove some level of diversity. Keeping it as is, it fits so many roles, which is the main problem I have with it. Getting rid of it would force players to try to replace those roles with a variety of mons usurped by it. Seeing how players choose to do so, and how players plan against it could backfire, like you've said: they'd look more similar. But I believe the potential for more diverse teams exists with the banning of Landorus-T (and maybe a few others).

>>31769187
Hyper Offense suffers the same problem

balance a cutest and a best

>>31769048
>It would just kill stall's diversity so the 'only' viable build is Mega Sableye / Chansey / Clefable / Skarmory / Toxapex / Diglett
Isn't he basically saying that Mega Sableye / Chansey / Clefable / Skarmory / Toxapex / Dugtrio is the only viable stall build at present or am I misinterpreting what he's saying?

>>31769896
he's saying trapinch and diglett can't kill shit hard enough, so yes

>>31769389
Your entire post shows that you're still new in competitive.
Stall has always been a core playstyle, even tho it became less enjoyable to play as and against during gen 6.
>>31769087
Manaphy is great.

>>31769896
could be, I think it might just mean that without Dugtrio, a lot of other stall teams could fall apart. wording is ambiguous.

>>31769851
I've never had issues with playing HO, and with HO the opponent is playing with the same risk/reward structure your are. If they fuck up once, it's extremely hard to make a comeback. If I lose to Hyper Offense, I feel like it's my fault. If I lose to stall, I feel like I lost because I didn't play one out of fifty turns perfectly.

>>31769842
I can see what you're saying with a potentialy for more diversity, but I don't think that would actually happen. Having a Landorus lets you do so much else with the rest of your team that removing it would restrict you so much. Having to distribute all of Lando's roles on a team isn't particularly hard, but it does restrict it a lot. The teams I've had the most fun with have a Landorus, because the rest of the team is very offensive and admittedly somewhat poorly built, but having Lando as the glue lets it work with the cost that Lando only works as that blanket check once or twice.

>>31769911
Manaphy is great but it doesn't break stall, it's walled by Pex and Clef.

>>31769911
>+6 252+ SpA Manaphy Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 501-591 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

>>31769298
>>31769198

Stall is literally you just waiting and reacting to whatever the opponent does or might do until they get bored and say fuck this shit. It's a passive, shitty playstyle.

>>31769198
>I don't understand this argument. I can understand defensive playstyles, but you can cover that with Balance or tweaking BO. Stall is more matchup based than anything. In my experience with Offense, giving Stall a free turn absolutely cripples you. They get off toxic, hazards, etc while they can heal off anything bad that happens to them. It essentially comes down to Offense playing high risk with low reward and Stall playing low risk with high reward.

Screencap this. Stall is shit.

>>31769181
>endurance test
>Autism test

I'd rather they just ban Arena Trap over Dugtrio.

I know it'd probably be too frail to get used much in that case, but having a speedy little asshole with 100 Attack running around is pretty fun imo.

>>31769123
This
The existence of stall is a sign of a stale, dying meta

everything is slow already more things need to pack dragon tail or other switching moves.its time to play utilitymons, all out offense is dead with dugtrio.

Its what happens when you have the same fucking metagame every geneeation. Emphasis on new trinkets but strong OU mons stay the same with a few new favourites that compliment the old boys club.

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>>31769123
I'm liking what I see here

>>31769165
>all three have to be equally viable
Says who?

What makes stall inherently more desirable than, let's say, hail teams? Why don't we just arbitrarily decide hail teams have to be viable and start banning everything that makes them unplayable?

>>31770085
Thats a lot of Pokemon, anon

>>31769896
Msab/Chansey/Skarm/Tox is the core, all you need then is something with Unaware like Clefable or Quagsire and then something to take on stallbreakers, and Dugtrio can take on just about all of them.

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>>31770100

>>31769048
>I could mention choice band tyranitar too, since it is impossible to play around it without arena trap
Wait what? really? aren't other ways to kill it?

>>31770120
You can absolutely play around Choice Band TTar on Stall, but it doesn't fit the solitaire style of never making a meaningful interaction with your opponent. You have to actually make predictions and maybe suffer consequences from making the wrong play, if they wanted that they wouldn't be playing Stall.

>>31770120
There are, he's either a shitter or an agenda pusher. Band Tar has ran the same moveset since gen 4, somehow stall never had a problem with it until now.

>>31770020
I agree, but the smegon pros counter with "muh complex bans" when the baton pass clause has existed before.

I don't really follow smogon competitive, so someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but the last time full-stall teams were a thing before mega stones was gen 2 right? in gen 3-5 you'd use the stall pokemon more as a pivot or to cripple sweepers on a defensive team, but they were more balanced?

I'm just starting to look at competitive pokemon stuff this gen and stall doesn't seem like it's super fun for anyone involved.

>>31770141
Jumping on this, its a matter of taking an insane Pursuit to the face or being obliterated by one of its regular attacks

>>31770151
stall was never about fun, it's about elo dickstroking

>>31770149
sleep clause too

god you guys are faggots, your ADD-addled minds wouldn't have allowed you to enjoy Gen 2.

if there had been some centralizing faggotry force making capricious bans like post Gen 4 Smogon, they probably would have banned Curselax or Skarmory.

>>31770151
Gen 3 was stally as fuck as well. Defensive Pokemon could get away with running Rest without Sleep Talk or Chesto, there was no LO, no Specs, no phys/spec split, general lack of high BP moves, the cancerous SkarmBliss core etc

>>31770149
Banning Arena Trap wouldn't really be a complex ban, they've banned Shadow Tag before. Nobody thought Diglett Stall would be a thing.

>>31770151
>stall doesn't seem like it's super fun for anyone involved
That's correct. When I first started I thought it was like zoning in fighting games, scrubs will complain about it but it actually is fun to play against once you understand what's going on. Boy was I wrong. Stall has existed before, I'm not an expert on previous gens since I started with XY but looking at the Smogon archives for previous gens you can find Stall, it just looks way different than it does now. btw, what you're calling a Stall pokemon is called a Pivot, when people say Stall is annoying to play against we're talking about the specific playstyle, not defensive pokemon in general.

>>31770174
Sleep clause is simple though, you cannot sleep more than a single pokemon

But is the baton pass clause something like only a single BP user per team and can't pass on two or more stats with speed involved?

If you can limit baton pass like that, arena trap can also be banned without duggy ban.

>>31770186
Snorlax would absolutely be banned if smogon was around in gen 2. Raikou too.

>>31770149
Don't forget the Swift Swim+Rain Ban in Gen 5.

I really wish Politoed was banned in Gen 5.

>>31770120
Quagsire should handle Tyranitar pretty easily unless it gets unlucky with defense drops, so I don't know what he's talking about.
>>31770149
They blanket banned Shadow Tag before, I don't understand why they aren't doing the same with Arena Trap since it's literally the same ability except it doesn't affect Flying types.

>>31770243
They actually just banned drizzle in UU recently, so now there is little excuse in not just banning arena trap

>>31770206
Current baton pass ban is a complete joke

They should have either banned the move itself or banned it's OP users (Blaziken, Scolipede, Smeargle, whatever else)

>>31769087
Manaphy scares the shit out of me whenever it shows up in battle. The rape train has no brakes.

>>31770186
>your ADD-addled minds wouldn't have allowed you to enjoy Gen 2.

Only the most autistic of you Stallfags would enjoy Gen 2 where there was even less offensive power.

>>31770285
>>31770285
But Scoliopede is a fun mon to use. The Baton Pass ban was done to restrict the playstyle, not the move itself, which was extremely overpowering.

>>31769048
This guy is a huge tool. Cherry picks shitty arguments in the metagame thread and pretends to misunderstand them to get his point across. He complains about opposing Heatran's being able to trap with Magma Storm yet insists Duggy should be able to do the same thing more consistently. He also drops out of the thread while insulting every one after ignoring any meaningful argument anyone was making against his terrible arguments.

>>31770419
>The Baton Pass ban was done to restrict the playstyle

because we can't have too many effective playstyles out there, amirite?

>No Items
>Fox only
>Final Destination

>>31770419
It's still better than the autist who was trying to argue that Dragon Dance is more broken than Dugtrio, they deleted his post now.

>>31770514
>how to spot someone who has never played against Baton Pass
Baton Pass is hardly a playstyle, it's more solitaire than Stall. Every time BP tried to start a chain, you had to play perfectly or you lose instantly. Assuming your team can even deal with two chains starting up, which was extremely unlikely

>B-b-but muh lando
Lando fills like 4 roles at once.
He's a bulky EQ switchin that has intimidate, a powerful EQ user, can set rocks and has Knock Off.

It does a lot of shit at once but it still has average typing and if it gets destroyed the opponent is set back massively.

Dugtrio on the other hand, means that at the very minimum you have to have 2 dedicated stallbreakers, and that's just horseshit.

>>31770764
>average typing
Ground + Flying is nearly unresisted coverage.
With a defensive score (weakness + resists + unresisted types) of 18.5 I'd say it's indeed average defensively (just about on par with Normal at 18).

>>31770826
I mean defensively mainly because Lando has poor Flying offensive options outside of Z-Crystal. And even then you're running into 4 moveslot syndrome

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>>31770530
>autist who was trying to argue that Dragon Dance is more broken than Dugtrio
Please tell me you have a screenshot

>>31770826
>Ground + Flying is nearly unresisted coverage
Lando never runs flying stab outside of Z-fly

If he's complaining about Golem being bad, why not just run scarf Mag with HP Ground if you're so scared of Heatran?

>>31770764
Don't forget the u-turn for momentum

>>31769179
>ban playstyles such as baton passing
Question to the serious competitve players, could BP have been fixed by banning pokemon rather than restricting its use?

>>31771403
No, because banning pokemon like Ninjask would make no sense

>>31771403
The BP clause is better than banning Pokemon like Espeon for a gimmick set.

>>31771420
Neither would banning pokemon like Blaziken. Oh wait...

>>31771403
I just feel like bp can be beaten by so many viable moves. Its UU ban confuses me.

>>31771697
BAnning the move in UU was retarded I agree, but at it's height in gen 6, baton pass teams were absolutely fucking retarded. Shit like roar, dragon tail, and all that, they circumvented all of it. It was basically an easy way to get 1600+

>>31771869
>Shit like roar, dragon tail, and all that, they circumvented all of it
This was really the darkest timeline. If you didn't play perfectly you flat out lost. I love the people that are like "BP is easy to beat just use roar or D tail" and it's obvious as fuck they never played against BP.

>>31771918
Does Haze work against Espeon?

"muh fun"
"muh fun muddafucka"

>>31771954
Yes.
Haze Quagsire was a pretty good counter to BP teams but they could still outplay it.
>>31771869
It was banned because of Celebi cancering up the tier by passing SD into mega Sharpedo. Instead of banning the onion that could do literally anything it wanted and heavily punish you for it if you mispredicted they banned BP altogether.

>>31769306
this was made specifically to falseflag when smogonfags weren't able to counterargument
so you just drop a random off topic pic to derail the thread

c:

>>31770859
So it does run flying stab

>>31772546
In only one of it's five viable sets

I want to ban duggy because people I don't like are having badwrongfun.

t. elo 700

Just unban Mega Lucario

>>31769048
Does he realize he's giving us an ever bigger reason to ban Arena Trap?

>>31773272
Arena Trap should be banned though, not Dugtrio.

>>31769939

>hydro pump manaphy

At least try