Pokemon Antagonists

>zinnia
>antagonist
explain

>>31477067
That Ghetsis has manipulated N into being that delusional shows why he's eldritch abomination tier
He's literally a better Claude Frollo

Lysandre should be in at least High tier, maybe Great, by your own definitions.

>>31477067
>N
>villain
>not antagonist

>>31477067
wasnt Lysandre's goal to genocide the world and rebuild it with only Team Flare members? That's basically High Tier. Also Maxie and Archie were dumb fucks.

someone pls tell me why the guys from R/S have this plan about Lebensraum with more land or more water, is that worth of being into great tier? to me it seems just absurd

>>31477083
Zinnia was never your ally until the very end

>>31477067
>Zinnia antagonist
>Archie and Maxie Great tier
>Guzma over Lusamine
what else?

>>31477067
>N's goal is hard to find fault in and is better than Hero's

The fuck is wrong with you? The only Villains with logically sound goals were Giovanni and Maxie.

>Archie in Great
Put him in Meh. He was more insane than fucking Lysandre.

>>31477067
So what tier does "You have no reason to go after them, but you have to because the game says so", fall under.

>>31477067
>Maxie +Archie good villains.

C'mon, their motivation and reasoning are literally retarded.

>Ayy, let's unleash an incredibly powerful Pokémon and let it fuck over the global climate unchecked. Surely nothing can go wrong with this!

>>31477086
Lysandre is a decent villain surrounded by a retarded team and a shit plot. He could have been great villain.

>>31477067
In all my time in this shithole of a board, I have never seen such a shit taste.
>Archie and maxie near the word great
>Lysandre anywhere but buttom of the list
>Zinnia and N are villains now
>Giovanni on shit tier
>Implying lusamines motive wasnt her disgusting fetish for UB action.

>>31477067
>daily reminder lysandre is the only dead in all encarnations

>>31477122
Thier plan was shit, but thier motives to further human evolution/send things back so we can start over are noble. Thier plans are still the dumbest in the franchise aside from Lysandre

>>31477086
>>31477116
Lysandre probably does deserve to be higher but the game made his plan seem like nonsense by not demonstrating it at all. What XY needed was either NPCs actually doing what he said or an N type character that is just there to show he's misguided.

>>31477126
That doesn't mean she was an antagonist, you pooj

Is no one going to mention Silver in this list? The fuck?

>>31477176
t. genwunner

>>31477067
>Ghetsis and Giovanni in shit tier
They're the only actual villains in the games. The rest just have shit moral compasses and Cyrus just has Aspergers.
N isn't even a villain.

>Colress
>Reluctant or being forced into a situation.

Fucker was fully on board for running Neo Team Plasma as it let him do his science.

>>31477197
he deserve it for being a fucker the whole game

>>31477216
Barry is more of a villain than Silver and N combined

>>31477067
these charts are fucking retarded

a good villain is one you want to beat. thats it.

they dont need a too deep for you sob story so that faggots on 4chan can circle jerk about how deep it is. wanna know a good villain? ganondorf in oot. he fucks shit up and you feel his impact, thats all you need for a good villain.

n was boring as hell and never really did anything of note, he was just a puppet

archie, maxy and colress arent even villains

cyrus is a joke, silver is just a little cunt who talks shit but cant back it up

literally who was horrible, guzma was ok

lysander was just outright the worst in the series, lusamine was good, zinnia isnt a villain, shes just a bitch

giovanni is decent, ghetsis is good, literally who is shit

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>>31477067

>>31477197
>>31477184
People dont have to be evil to be villainous to the main character, dummies.

>>31477204
He's a scientist who only joined to let Plasma test their hypothesis

>>31477237
must be a really weird bait then

>>31477067
Colress was not reluctant in the slightest. He did everything he did to further his own research and simply didn't give a shit about most of the villain stuff, for example, freezing the city was basically a way for him to test out his stuff.

>>31477202
>An opinion that is different
>Must be one of those genwunners
You sure made some great arguments

>>31477231
Archer wasnt that bad. He just needed more to him.

Lusamine wasnt good as all of her motivation was shored away in postgame.

>>31477247
Silver was an asshole. He wasn't a villain. He did not wrong, other than stealing Pokemon, which Elm forgave him for.

>>31477278
He steals a pokemon then spends the rest of the journey trying to beat you and acting antagonistic the entire time though

>>31477231
OP here. I know this is inherently flawed, honestly. Mainly because the "original" does have Ganondorf at the bottom which is dumb.

It also talks entirely about motivations and not execution. Like people here say, Lysandre would be in High Tier according to this, which is stupid as fuck.

I mainly did this to start a conversation. Also, you mostly have shit taste. AT least you rightfully hate Lysandre and Zinnia

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>>31477067

>N
>Manipulated entirely by Ghestis. His "motives" are entirely fabricated by someone else and he has been conditioned into them
>Not Mid Tier

>Archie
>Wants to commit mass murder on a global scale because muh fishes.
>Not "Meh" Tier.

>Silver
>Undergoing an edgy coming of age story in which he learns to be less edgy and copes with being abandoned by his father
>Is unironically on this list

>Giovanni
>Seeking funding to develop and control a weapon strong enough to combat the fickle godlike beings that apparantly infest every corner of the planet
>Not Elder God tier

>Guzma
>Seeking to prove that the island challenge is a sham after being arbitrarily rejected by the Tapus
>Not High Tier

>Cyrus
>Literally wants to destroy the world because it isn't as autistic as he is
>Not Meh or Shit tier

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>>31477067
>Archer not in shit tier
>Cyrus not in great tier
>Giovanni in shit tier
>N and Zinnia on there at all
>including Charon for no reason

>>31477067
Have Archie/Maxie switch places with Lysandre.

Lysandre was a great villain. Problem was the game he was in never let him show his full potential.

Never thought of that turd Zinnia as a villain, but shit, sounds about right to me.

Forgot Charon was even a thing, though.

>>31477344
I agreed with you until Guzma. Shit tier at best. Personality is boring. Is Lusamine's faithful puppy for no reason. Started Team Skull for no reason.

>>31477344
>anime canon Giovanni

>>31477388
They explain exactly why he follows Lusamine and started Team Skull.

>>31477247
That's Colress. Ghetsis is N's dad.

>>31477067

This list is simply on goals

Guzma's personality alone puts him higher than most

>>31477411
Because he likes Lusamine? That's hardly a reason. Not when it wasn't even explored at all. More like cope out. And I didn't hear any reasons for Team Skull's existence.

>>31477347
Archer only does what he does because he's loyal to Giovanni and vowed to start the team back for him.

Giovanni literally only wants to make money and take over the world

Charon takes over a faction of team Plasma and wants to.....control volcanic eruptions so he can use it to extort people out of money

>>31477422
Oh, I just read it wrong

>N's goal is hard to find fault with
Except for the fact that pokemon are just as sentient as humans and they choose to live in balls?

I can't take any pokemon villain who is doing it "for the good of pokemon" seriously for this exact reason. BW2 Plasma were just thugs doing it for the sake of doing it and they were still better.

>>31477451
And not only that, he SAW people and Pokemon be happy, but just ignored it. Completely. The delusion level was off the fucking charts with him. At least some villains are somewhat believable. Maxie's goal, to advance human race by giving us more land, was somewhat believable, even if his method for going about it wasn't. I'd say I sympathize with Ghetsis more than N.

>>31477067
>Giovanni
>Team Rocket
>Shit tier
Worst vp meme by far

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>N in Elder God Tier

Except N wasn't actually LISTENING to any of the pokemon he talked to he was just hearing what he wanted to hear because he had already decided that he was right. His whole argument amounted to being a child's tantrum. The only good thing he does is contrast Colress in the sequel because Colress lets hard data inform his decision-making like any rational person should and is the only antagonist that is grey and not just derp black.

>>31477067
>Archie and Maxie that high

I know they fit the definitions, but that doesn't mean that they fit them.

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>not knowing the difference between villain and antagonist
You're fucking hopeless

>>31477067
It's another "I didn't understand Lysandre's ideology" episode, isn't it?

>>31477231
>>31477270

Your ideas clashing shows when you compare Guzma and Lusamine

They both show 2 different ways of being a villain

Guzma is just a tough boss doing shit

Whereas Lusamine is the story driven deep overflow

That being said, Lusamine became better when she decided to fuse with her pokewaifu and fight you as that abomination

I still perfer Guzma because he's probably the only villain outside of N who redeems himself by still being himself

>>31477719
>misunderstanding neutral characters with villians
go, you can run now

>>31477729

>tfw he had a point when he compared you and rival fighting for the mega stone

>tfw tears when he has to state that Pokémon will be sacrificed

His ideals could've been better executed but he lost it when he had to push it by force

>>31477549
Team Rocket is good, but Giovanni isn't

>>31477729
Fuck off malthus

Zinia isn't a villain

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>>31477878

>>31477067
Lysandre explains his motives the first time you meet him you illiterate troglodyte

>>31477833
Well, that's the reason why he's a villain. He is rightfully mad because helping on a small scale isn't enough but he forces his ideals, even if they're good on paper, on others.
>>31477857
Never said I agree with his plan, though he brings up good points. Just that he's a much better villain than what shitposters say.

>imfuckingplying that Gen 2 Rocket was anything but absolute trash tier

>>31477563
But that's just wrong.

Nothing says a pokemon wouldn't just follow you on their own. Forcing them to is a cancer on the world.

>>31477067

Lysandre is just a shittier Cyrus, but they're basically the same.

Zinnia was never a villain.

>>31477919
Just because hsays his reasoning doesn't mean it makes sense. You illiterate so and so.

The game does absolutely nothing to show that his motives have any basis in reality and he comes across aa whiny and crazy, firing a laser into Kalos to cure greed

>>31477067
Missed ORAS
How the fuck are the RSE villains good?

>>31477958

Yet we all know that Pokeballs are brainwashing devices, instantly causing any wild Pokemon caught to obey anything you say, and when the brainwashing isn't strong enough the badges augment them so that they are.

>>31477999
Trips of truth.

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>>31477067
>Archie and Maxie great
>Lysandre meh

>>31477960
More like the opposite. Lysandre actually cares about humanity, the non-asshole portion of it at least. Cyrus only cared about himself.
>>31477965
He literally gives you a small-scale example with the Mega Ring. Everyone knows there's a huge inequality of resources in the world, why do you think some parts of it live way better than others?

>>31477085
Just because frollo got guilt tripped into keeping an abomination doesn't make him a good villain, he was just a generic evil religious racist waito piggu otherwise.

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People need to realize the true villian of Pokemon

i'm not reading any of the rest of this thread but there's nothing inherently wrong with dickhead power-grabbing villains ok

thanks

>>31478038
>More like the opposite. Lysandre actually cares about humanity, the non-asshole portion of it at least

No he fucking doesn't. He thinks the world basically sucks and only saves rich people who want to join him. His views of beauty are total shit. Don't care what he says, actions speak louder than words.

>>31477960

>basically the same

>I hate emotion I want a new world without it where I am a god

>stop arguing REEEEEEEEEE I want a world with no arguments

Atleast Cyrus got what he wanted when he stayed in the distortion world with jos waifu Giratina

>>31478117
He doesn't "save rich people", he asks for money so he can continue funding the research of Lysandre's Labs to improve his utopia. He hates money-grubbing people who only care about their own wealth.

Based Giovanni even got to run a gym.

Story-wise one of the best antagonists for sure. Too bad his team is shit.

>>31478038
Do you think Mega Rings are something that can ever be mass marketed and readily available? Next you'll say its criminal Masterballs aren't available by everyone

>>31478241
No. That's an "example". It's not meant to be the real thing. The most obvious difference is that you can live without a Mega Ring.
You can't say the same for resources you actually need for your life.

>>31477771
>he still doesn't know what an antagonist is
Please fuck off back to school

>>31478346
An antagonist is a character, group of characters, institution, or concept that stands in or represents opposition against which the protagonist(s) must contend. In other words, an antagonist is a person or a group of people who opposes a protagonist =/= characters have impartial or mixed morality, meaning they are neither heroes or villains. At times, these characters can perform acts of justice or injustice inconsistently. A neutral character can also be an average civilian with no true or conscious involvement in the main plot of a story.Furthermore, some of these characters may evolve into legitimate heroes or villains over time.

thit you get all that?

>>31477167
Bump this question?

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>>31477067
>Elder God Tier
>Not a villain who is not evil

>Shit Tier
>Villains who are evil

>>31477067
>N
>elder god tier

Not even fucking close. He isn't even a villain in the first place either.

>Archie and Maxie in Great tier

lmao fuck off with this shit. By the definitions given in the image they're Meh tier at best.

>>31477067
>all the retards saying X isn't a villain when the thread is literally called Pokemon Antagonists, and is just using a template with the word villain

>>31478657
and how do you fit n and zinnia villians in your head canon?

>>31478117
That's a antifa tier description. You're a fucking idiot.

>>31477067
>Elder God tier
None, maybe Maxie, since he's only doing it for humanity, even though he fails.

>Great tier
Colress, Maxie if he's not in EG tier

>Realistic tier
Giovanni

>High tier
Lysandre, Cyrus,

>Okay tier
N

>Evil tier
Lusamine, Ghetsis

>Meh tier
Archer

>Shit tier
Guzma, Archie

Silver, Zinnia and Charon doesn't need to be here. They aren't bosses of any teams.

>>31478695
>anon says the thread is about antagonists
>so how are these guys villains???
Retard

>>31478563
Nice copy and paste. If you weren't a fucking underaged retard you'd understand that N, Zinnia and and Silver do not fit in a villain chart, thus my comment. Now seriously, go to bed.

>>31477067
Archer was in the story for like a minute, why is he mid?

>>31477067
>Ghetsis not in the highest of tiers.
He was the best villain we ever got. Guzma is my boy though.

>>31477170
They don't actually know that the ancient Pokemon are uncontrollable though.

>>31479091
He was also in FRLG

>>31479062
but the thread is about antagonists?

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>>31477176
>pokemon fucking
>disgusting fetish

>>31477067
But Guzma fits the description of high-tier, and Cyrus fits the description of mid-tier.

Not to mention the fact that you have Silver and Zinnia on there for apparently no reason.

>>31477441
>Because he likes Lusamine?
Because, after always winning silver or bronze and being beaten by his father for not being good enough, she was the first person to show him anything even approaching respect.

>>31477729
There's little to understand.
Lysandre's main tantrum is about the horrible, corrupt world, and how sad it is. This would be fine in the real world, but in Pokefrance, everyone, up to and including the street thugs, are overly kind people and the country is run on clean renewable energy and, to be fair, it did have a homeless problem that was fixed by the detective agency.
First mark against Lysandre? What he says, and what the world is like are completely different.

Second, Lysandre's solution. Lysandre is upset about the cruel corrupt world. So his solution? Nuke the fuck out of it. Using a turbo-nuke that is directly powered by the suffering of the innocent Pokemon he loves so much.
Point number two against Lysandre is that his proposed solution is not only worse than the world he describes, let alone the one that exists, but actively harms the one place in the world he finds redemption.

Point 3 against Lysandre is really just one of simplicity. If the world is fucked, then fix it. Lysandre has enough money to build his autism suit, and to all sorts of bullshit. Why not reinvest that in encouraging the type of behavior he wants to see, instead of just burning the house down with everyone still in it?

Lysandre is not a rational person, driven by any recognizable thought pattern to another sane person. Even suicidal is a bit weird, considering he wants to take so much with him. Insane villains are fine, just call the shit like it is.

>>31477067
BW Ghetsis is in Elder God Tier. BW2 can rot though.

>>31480121
Guzma being a failure isn't a misdeed

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>>31477067
>lusamine
>meh tier
>ghetsis
>shit tier
>maxie and archie
>great tier
also:
>zinnia
>silver
this is some garbage tier taste

>>31480239
>First person
He has a fucking gang who loves and respects him a thousand times more than Lusamine ever did. Unless you're going to claim Team Skull was created afterwards, which I don't remember seeing any proof of, that's a whole bunch of bullshit.

>>31480240
I mean, this overly kind world has a huge criminal organizations rising and almost destroying regions and even the fucking universe.
It's almost worse than our world.

>>31477067
>haha le funny annie may meme XDXDXD one punch man is top kek XDXDXD

yea fuck back off to your ironic anime pages on facebook where you'll see everything as a jojo reference

>>31480845
Plumeria flat-out says that Lusamine was the first one to show Guzma respect, so...that would then imply that Team Skull came afterwards, I suppose.

>>31477153
I don't know, man. When you're living in a world filled with magical monsters of untold power, a lot of shit starts to become a lot more logical.

>>31477067
Wanting economical and political power without some form of idealism or emotionalism is a more realistic and relatable goal for a villain. Giovanni is better than all these garbage villains because he merely desires power, and this desire doesn't need to be justified by a shitty anime plot/characterization.
Giovanni is an adult.

>>31477067
What the fuck "reluctant situation" did Archie and Maxie find themselves in? Being alive on the planet and it not being what they wanted it to be according to their stupid vision? Fuck off.

>>31480845
Being respected because you gave a bunch of orphans, runaways, and societal rejects a place to live and being respected for your own strength and power are entirely separate things.

>>31480845
>>31481039
>See, Guzma... he really likes the president. She's the only adult who ever seemed to see how strong he was.
This is what Plumiera said.

>>31477231
>this is /vp/

neat

>>31477067
>A villain is good or shit by their motives and not how they are written or characterized

Actual retard detected.

>>31481011
Literally what

>>31480069
>thinks everyone on /vp/ is a furfag
newfag detected

>>31480240
Yeah, they should have made Kalos a little bleak in some places. But who knows about the overall situation of the Pokéworld? It could be really similar to ours. We don't have many in-depth world building elements, but if a rich guy suddenly wakes up and starts a crusade against this type of inequality, we have no reason to think he's imagining things.

The reason why he wants to eliminate Pokémon is for the stability of his utopia. Once he decimates the human population, they have to make sure the balance can't be upset by internal or external factors, or else they slowly go back to square one and nullify the entire process. Pokémon are a living source of power and, as we saw in XY, can also be used in war. He's basically banning all weapons, except said weapons are living beings and thus the only way to remove the risk of humans abusing Pokémon to destroy everything that has been done is removing the possibility of those humans using them.

For the third point, he specifically said that he did try to do everything he could using the profits of his Labs, but the world is just too vast, too overpopulated and there was always a majority going against his effort and nullifying them. He's a drop in the ocean.

He only truly goes insane in the end, when he went all the way and failed. His reputation is ruined forever and he's charged (at least we know people do get arrested, thanks to Looker's sidequest) with many serious crimes. I'm not saying he's perfect, but his plans had much more thought than "EXPAND THE SEA" or "Giovanni, notices us!" and there are many people who just say factually incorrect things about him, like that he only likes fashionable people or shit like that.

I also liked how he, unlike N, died while believing in his ideals, replying that if things were as easy as Shauna says, wars would have ended a long time ago. Nothing wrong with change, but N had been indoctrinated since childhood. Was MC enough for him to change idea?

>>31477067
cyrus really should be meh tier, you really cant tell what the fuck hes talking about unless you google it

If you reply to this post, your mother will die in her sleep tonigh

>>31477563
>Colress has motives in a grey area
>name is 'Colorless' with an O and L dropped
>stars in the suspsiciously similar sequels to Black and White.

so, pretty much confirmed Grey version, then?

>>31482256
Does that mean, he thinks not so powerful people are less important?
What a fucking hypocrite.

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>>31477997
I was wondering that too, their plans seemed pretty retarded back in the original R/S

>>31477344
>>N
>>Manipulated entirely by Ghestis. His "motives" are entirely fabricated by someone else and he has been conditioned into them
This. N is deliberately written to be pathetic. I don't see why people hype him so much.

Guzma should be shit tier, Maxie and Archie should be meh, Ghetsis and Lysandre should be high or great

Silver and Zinnia arent anatgonists

Colress was literally 0% evil. He just wanted to see how you could get the most out of a Pokemon, and I suppose that could be seen as selfish, but he did nothing evil towards. Ghetsis just put him in charge as a red herring.

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>>31477086
Can't you see there's no room for four people in a row?!

>>31477067
I don't like the "only good villain is the did-nuthing-wrong kind". Even in real world most evil people are just simply selfish and manage to get away away with it. Some people may even delude themselve into thinking they are the "top tier" while in fact they are "bottom tier" of this list.

Squealer from Shin Sekai Yori for example keep announcing that he want to save his race from slavery, but examining his action through the series you can see that he only care bout getting power for himself, even destroying members of his race just to earn favor from his human master. In the end he is a "bottom tier" villain according to this list, but his hypocrisy and "humane" nature make him one of the best villain ever grace anime world.

James deserves elder god tier

>>31478848
>>Elder God tier
>None, maybe Maxie
maxie go home

Switch mid tier with shit tier and maybe your opinion will be worth listening too.

Guzma is trash. Just trash.

>>31477067
>Zinnia
>villain

op, i diagnose you with autism

>>31477098
>not anti-hero

>>31477067
>Maxie and Archie in anything but shit tier
DUDE WATER AND LAND LMAO
This isn't even an exaggeration.
That's literally their motivation.

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fixed.

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>>31477067
More accurate list with better categories.

>>31484684
Archie and Maxie wanted to expand their respective landmasses for good reasons, though. They just had no clue as to the consequences because they failed basic science class (in many ways this makes Maxie worse because the big nerd ought to know better)

>>31480267
If they're being ranked based on personality, a greater failure should put them higher.

>>31477067
I guess Jessie and James can have their own tier.

>>31477067
>N
>Elder god tier
>Hasn't even caught a superhero on the run

Explain

From what I can gather, everyone is very neutral towards Cyrus.

>>31477067
Flip the whole thing upside down and you have it right, anon. First of all, N is a shitty villain with tons of faults. Second, bad guys who are insane or evil for no reason are actually the best kind of villain. Clearly you don't appreciate a basic black and white morality, clear good vs evil conflict. Because I fucking love that. Too much stuff tries to make everything morally gray but that just makes it harder for me to like the good guy.

>>31477067
This list is terrible

You are retarded

>>31477067
Giovanni isn't shit tier.

that guy basically just wants his own space where he makes his own rules, possibly because he doesn't agree with how the government of Kanto does things.

Team Rocket is pushing technology forward, has a lot of legal business too and "le evil branche" is the only silly thing about it that makes you wonder why he does it in the first place. He basically runs a mafia and that's it.

>>31484254
finally somebody said it.

Elder God Tier to make cool mottos, show off perfect style and steal pokemon so that normies stop being retarded.

>>31484848
>???
MEDIOCRE tier

>>31484848
OP here, I don't care about the placements of any of the that much, but I'm just glad you fixed it to make mid tier actually be the middle tier

Ganondorf Tier
>Villains who are truly evil, only motivated by power.
Ghetsis

Gone Crazy Tier
>Villains who were arguably good at one point, then became evil.
Lusamine

Evil But Smart Tier
>Villains who got into the crime game for personal gain, but knew when to quit and turn over a new leaf.
Giovanni, Corless

Heart In The Right Place Tier
>Villains who hatch "evil" plans that they hope will make the world a better place after execution.
Archie, Maxie, Lysandre

Austistic Tier
>Villains whose motivations are literally autism.
Cyrus

Vandals Tier
>Punk kids who had a bad home life and now commit petty crimes.
Guzma, Silver

Anti-Hero Tier
>Villains who are revealed to not actually be villains.
N, Gladion

Tiers are in order of most to least evil.

>>31477067
>Ghetsis below Cyrus
>Cyrus anything other than shit tier
Holy fuck anon, it's like gen 4 was your first game

>>31477067
Zinnia, a villain. Literally what?

>>31477247
Then where's Blue?

>>31486158
I like how Archer isn't mentioned.