Choose wisely

>>31427409
N. Never a huge fan of N but fuck Lillie

N is hot, so i chose him

N all day

>>31427409
N, he becomes bro teir in BW2

>>31427409
N talked faster and didn't have the camera fade to black and then back to the same map with a camera angle every time he walked on screen

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N 100%

Kind of apples and oranges. N was the better character though if only for how he helped BW end with a bang.

>>31427409
Designated Waifu/Husbando

At least N is interesting

N, obviously. It takes more than just a pretty face to engage a player's interest in a character, even if it's only just a bit.

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I don't want either of those. Silver is a better character than both.

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N
>releases his pokemon
>all his pokemon have the ID number 2, because they're the second best characters in the franchise after him
>battles you in the postgame with four (4) different teams
>fully embraces the weather war meta
>wholesome and supportive
>has a sweet ass train set
Lillie
>can't even keep her pokemon in the bag
>never battled in her life
>repel spammer
>i bet she can't even throw a fucking pokeball
>vain, uses the protagonist to solve her own family issues
>owns a diary, nerd
>willing to fuck some faggot who can't express any emotion besides :^)/a fucking chicken
>probably has cooties

The choice is clear.

N

>>31427409
Lillie is the worst character in the series. She's worse than the fat guy who talks about the wonders of technology in every starting town.

>>31427409
N. Cool but simple design, nice characterization in his games, interesting gimmick of using local wild mons in battle, and for some reason he reminds me of Part 7 Zeppelli.

Lillie is okay, but nothing special. I haven't played Sun and Moon yet though so maybe my opinion on her will change once I do.

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>>31427409
Team N here, Lillie is a huge faggot.

N, he literally walked up to Alder and cucked him on the spot.

>all of this N dick sucking

wtf I hate N now

>>31427532
True... n wants to fuck hilbert/hilda, the hottest protagonists....

>>31427576
He is a good character though, more developed than most rival type characters, especially in modern games.

>>31427409
N easily.

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>>31427581
>hilda
>hottest

This anon has good tastes

>>31427409
Lillie didn't have as cool of a backstory that N had, but she got much more screen time, had much more dialogue, and most importantly went through much more character development.

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>>31427409
Came into the thread expecting everyone to be shitting on Lillie. Wasn't disappointed.

Anyway, I pick Lillie. She's a vastly superior character, with better personality and great character development. N can EASILY surpass her, but the way he was handled, his current version just doesn't hold up. His character development all happened off screen, which is an incredibly shitty thing to do. He also had only a sort of weird and not likeable personality. Had Unova games come out now, with Ohmori directing instead of Masuda, and you got to see his character develop, N would be the obvious choice. But as things stand, N was just a weird man who wanted unrealistic things, battled you now and then. Lillie is simply a better character because her character is a lot more realistic and sympathetic.

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>>31427657
>3DPD

>>31428023
You're right, women being pathetic is definitely a lot more realistic

>>31427409
Lillie so I can lick her cunny.

>>31427546
don't talk shit about technology bro.

>>31427409
Definitely nagito

>>31427409
N just wants to chill with Pokémon now

>>31428048
Please. Lillie is a lot stronger than N. N was SUPPOSED to be the pathetic man, and he plays that role pretty well.

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N for life.

>>31428124
>Lillie was a lot stronger than N
>Lilliefags actually believe this

>>31428130
Jesus christ wtf

>>31428170
>A 20-ish man who slowly goes from being a King to realizing everything he believed in was a lie and have to accept others' views
>A 11 year old girl who goes from just accepting others' views to becoming strong and challenging those views

Play the games. That's what the stories presented them as. It's almost frustrating you claim to like N, but don't even understand his character.

>>31428251
Did Lillie have to go through the mental harm of Ghetisis? I know her mom was pretty bad but even then she used to be way better. N was getting used ever since he was adopted.

"Play the games."

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>>31428251
>to becoming strong
>This is my Z-powered form!
>continues being as useless as ever

So strong.

N is good husbando.

>>31428023
>Came into the thread expecting everyone to be shitting on Lillie. Wasn't disappointed.

Lillie fags are so easy to get butthurt. There's only like two people shitting on Lillie. The majority of people picking N over Lillie does not equal Lillie being shit on. You're just butthurt because barely anybody who posted before you picked Lillie.

>>31428299
"Getting used" but he still lead a relatively fine life, although a fake one. Ghetsis treated him well. And this isn't even something you should be comparing. By the end of their games, both characters were in completely different places. N had just reset, while Lillie had leveled up.

N. Only one of the two who knows how to use balls

>>31428329
no but see she called her mommy a meanie poo poo head

Both.

The only thing Lillie was good for was being the straightman in the Lillie/PEW comedy duo. If she was not involved in the story at all and was just some girl who had the running joke of not being able to contain her bagfart she would have been just as good.

N was much more interesting.

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>>31428394
All those hours of cutscenes culminated to this

>>31428023
Shouldn't have posted that. Especially on /vp/, who has the biggest hateboner for Lillie.

>>31427409
N is by far the worst significant character in the series. Zinnia is better.

N. At least he doesn't make me feel bad for catching the legendary pokemon.

I hope they never pull that "I had the legendary pokemon with me the whole time???" shit again like they did with Lillie.

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>>31428394
>>31428470
Shit Lillie really is fucking worthless.

>>31428369
N was fucking abandoned as a child and believed he was born from Pokémon

Ghetsis also constantly calls N a freak while literally locking him in a room and essentially brainwashed him to believe humans are dicks to Pokémon

Lillie was all like
>my mom always dressed me

>>31428023
>His character development all happened off screen,

reminder that Lillie is still just as useless postgame as she was pre game and fucked off to kanto to do her character development. And that you shitting on her mother squidlusamon and her team of z-power rangers along with nihilego's toxins had more of an effect of reigning her in than Lillies little pouty face tirade.

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>>31428525
>>my mom always dressed me
But dude this is oppression, Lusamine is an abusive mother for forcing her to use those clothes and calling her ugly for stealing Cosmog.

Literally worse than Ghetsis. Lillie being able to even smile after that was the best character development in gaming.

>>31428550
Reminder that N is also just as useless postgame as he was during the main game. He wanted Pokemon to not suffer, still battled, lost every time, and fucked off to who knows where. When he comes back 2 years later, he jobs and makes your opponent just stronger.

>>31428525
Oh yes, I agree that his life in wild, who knows how long that was, was pretty hard. Don't understand what this has to do with anything I said though.

>Ghetsis also constantly calls N a freak
Only happened after you beat N. Keep your headcanon to yourself.

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>>31428596
>Lillie being able to even smile after that was the best character development in gaming.
that's bullshit and you know it.

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>>31428652
>still battled, lost every time, and fucked off to who knows where. When he comes back 2 years later, he jobs

Trying to do anything even if you're destined for failure > POUTY. FACE. TIRADE.

>>31428694
I think your sarcasm detector is malfunctioning

>>31427409
While I don't hate Lillie unlike 90% of /vp/, I do think N is an far better character.

>>31428596
replace "best" with "worst" and you will have a valid arguement.

>>31428596
Do you think Lusamine hit her kids? 'cause I sure bet Ghetis hit N.

>>31428722
I don't know anon. Lillie changing her clothes and calling her mommy a big meanie was a pretty big deal

>>31428726
It's hard to tell Sarcasm through text.
Especially when you're very tired.

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>>31428722
Not even physically fighting and stilling winning and saving the region > using a Legendary Dragon to do job twice.

>>31428805
>to do job twice
To job twice.
Fuck, I feel so bad for shitting on N that I'm subconsciously making him look better.

>>31428805
>Lillie mattered in any way
That's a stretch, let alone that she saved the fucking region

>>31428771
see >>31428130

>>31428871
Hey that's not hitting at all! I demanded evidence of violence.

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>>31428781
right, how could I forget the culmination of 24 hours of gameplay and cutscene after cutscene of showing how much Lillie is "growing"

>>31428805
Coming back to confront your evil father who froze half the region and is seconds from killing another human and taking over the region unopposed > Chasing her mother to another dimension that probably would have eventually wound up being the death of her, just to tell her she's being a dick

>>31428857
Literally none of SM's events were possible without her. You and Lillie alone are responsible for this. She wasn't a trainer, and it was too late to become one, but without her, you would never even meet Lusamine or even travel to Ultra Space. Remember, Nebby was her Pokemon, not yours.

>>31428857
Let's be real, if we left Lusamine in UltraSpace, literally the entire Alola Region would be safe bar the UBs that need to be captured.

>>31428917
Lusamine literally wanted to kill everyone she deemed "unworthy" and gained access to Ultra Beasts, allowing her to open the portals at any time she wanted. And those Ultra Beasts actually do kill people.

>>31428906
Nebby wasn't her Pokémon her Pokémon though she didn't own it :^)

>>31428906
You meet Lusamine because of Wicke and Faba. Lillie had nothing to do with that.

>>31428952
She sure did. Then she ran off permanently into a hostile, deadly nightmare realm. She never would have been able to return if we didn't chase her. In fact, we endangered the world by doing it. Worth it to save poor Guz.

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>>31428903
Taking away the only thing keeping her mother from unleashing Ultra Beasts on the region before anything happens > coming after half the region is already frozen and jobbing, giving the villain even more power and endangering lives of everyone just to give a speech about coexisting

>>31428952
>wanted to kill everyone
[citation needed]

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>>31428906
>Literally none of SM's events were possible without her. You and Lillie alone are responsible for this. She wasn't a trainer, and it was too late to become one, but without her, you would never even meet Lusamine or even travel to Ultra Space. Remember, Nebby was her Pokemon, not yours.

The plot was so contrived that its was joke status.

>time to confront evil mother with her friend
>her one pokemon, a fucking legendary has to stay behind for unspecified "reasons"
>devs avoided giving you a double battle with the waifu they've been forcing for the last 20 hours for a just another fucking 1v1 trainer battle
>your reward or winning the battle is Lillie calling her mommy an asshole

More contrived than lilie staying at that hotel on Akala island waiting for someone who never shows up or mentioned again just so she doesn't reunite with Gladion on route 5. Fuck this games story.

Lillie would be my favorite character in the entire series if she double battled with you against her mother using only a level 2 shitmon that got swept immediately. Especially if she knew she'd get swept immediately but still wanted to help you.

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>>31429002
>before anything happens
It still happened. She failed to do her only job.

And it was all due to her own incompetence. Over and over the story puts her in danger, even a mentally retarded child would realize that they need Pokemon to protect themselves.

But no, Lillie is a special case. She has to keep Cosmog, but she also refuses to battle.

People love talking shit about Zinnia for endangering Hoenn, yet they gleefully ignore how Lillie endangered Alola because "uguu I don't like battles".

>>31429086
God damn Lillie is so useless. As much as I think Lusamine is scum, I just want to see her beat her whining kid's asses.

>>31429140
>It still happened.
What happened? Nothing did. You, who was recruited by Lillie, took care of before it got out of hand. Had she not stolen Cosmog in the beginning, everything would've been over right there.

>they need Pokemon to protect themselves
Pokemon aren't tools. And it isn't as easy. Not everyone can be a trainer strong enough of defending themselves, like how not everyone can fight in real life. Hau, an experienced trainer, still couldn't do anything. All her having Pokemon would achieve is just her Pokemon getting their asses kicked.

>>31429219
>>>>>recruited

>>31429232
Yeah, she was literally the reason you're fighting. Without her, there would be no one getting you involved, and Lusamine would just win by default.

>>31429219
>Not everyone can fight irl
Yeah, that's why guns exist. Pokemon are living superguns, and just like a gun, yu'd have to be a moron not to learn to use one, at least casually enough for self-defense.

>>31429283
Why would it be bad for Lusamine to be in Ultra Space forever

>>31429219
Literally preschoolers are trainers anon

Being a trainer isn't a special thing. Trials are literally a fun past time for children

>>31429283
The only thing she'd win at is being dicked by Nihilegos for life, or dying to Guzzlord.
No complete world changing events would've occured.

>>31429283
What exactly is Lusamine winning? If Lillie wasn't involved, Lusamine would've certainly died. Hell, after she opened the first portal in her cryogenics room it doesn't really seem like anything else happened in regards to Ultra Space leaking into the main world. The MC took care of all the escaped beasts in the postgame (without Lillie) so I fail to see how much damage she could've done had Lillie not been involved.

The only major changes I can imagine would be Lusamine dying in Ultra Space, and possibly Guzma as well since he might've escaped through the portal Lillie and the player opened.

>>31429329
Being a Trainer isn't a hard. Being a Trainer strong enough to defend yourself is.

>>31429219
>everything would've been over right there.
And thus the redundancy of SM's plot.

>And it isn't as easy. Not everyone can be a trainer strong enough of defending themselves, like how not everyone can fight in real life.
Then we have to question why someone this worthless is the protagonist.

Hate N all you wanted, at least he antagonized you and forced you to be the hero, instead of a mere bodyuard who has nothing to do with what's going on.

>>31429381
And you would've helped her get that strength is she tried herself.
If she tried then asked for help, I wouldn't hate her. But she doesn't.

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N is for ____

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>>31429219
>everything would've been over right there.

I like how you ignore the fact that Lusamine was only a danger to herself, and just wanted to go to the digital world alone. Her winning would have been inconsequential.

>Not everyone can be a trainer strong enough of defending themselves, like how not everyone can fight in real life.

Irrelevant because the attempt is what matters and what separates N from Lillie. if both my arms are broken and my best friend/sibling is about to get in a fight, you better believe I'll be right next to them kicking as hard as I fucking can even if we both wind up in the hospital. If Lillie was given the third starter or any shitmon and didn't fight a single battle until confronting Lusamine and joined you for a double battle knowing she's about to get her shit pushed in she'd be in the running for best character in this shitshow of a game.

>>31429424
There were more important things that needed to be done than playing around with Pokemon. Like keeping Nebby away from Lusamine, and later on, getting it evolve. Improving her own self, rather than her Pokemon.
Not to mention she couldn't, but that's completely besides the point.

This is a Pokemon game, so I can't say wanting someone to use a Pokemon is wrong. That's completely fair thing to ask for. But I simply think it doesn't fit in anywhere. Maybe having her use Pokemon postgame in front of you before going to Kanto would've workd, but during the main game, there was simply no need.

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>>31429462
Beating

>I must protect Nebby
>but I won't become a trainer until everything is resolved
>look I can walk over a bridge
ABSOLUTELY FUCKING USELESS

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>>31429556
What kind of autism inspired the creation of this image?

>>31429462
Spanking.

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>>31428652
>lost every time
Reminder that N beat the Champion, E4 and captured a legendary dragon by the time you face him for the last time. Then he saves your ass from being buttfucked by icicles in the sequel.

Was Lillie ever this helpful or successful on her own?

>>31429470
>if both my arms are broken and my best friend/sibling is about to get in a fight, you better believe I'll be right next to them kicking as hard as I fucking can even if we both wind up in the hospital.
Except in a Pokemon battle, you're not the one who ends up in the hospital, your Pokemon is.

What you're asking for is to give Lillie - someone who's only just warmed up to the idea of Pokemon battles after avoiding them due to the Pokemon getting hurt - give her a shitmon that she doesn't know how to use and will get one-shot anyway, just to prove she's willing to try? Because while I get what you're going for, you're only going to end up putting her right back where she started, blaming herself for needlessly putting a Pokemon into danger when she knew it wouldn't help, and then swearing off battling again.

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>This fucking thread
Releas yourselves you faggots. Both N and Lillie are good. Lillie simply had more time to develop.
End this shit.

>>31429645
Let me reason with you anon

Stories without trial and error or just lack of failure are trash

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>>31429666
I want to release in N!

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>>31429573
Don't be that way, we used to have so much fun.

>>31429666
Doesn't explain why N devolped more

Checked satanic N

>>31429761
>Doesn't explain why N devolped more
Having a character act a bit differently each time he appears is a lot easier than showing that development. That's why.

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>>31429666
TRIPS HAVE SPOKEN

>>31429666
N(agito) is my favorite crossover

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>>31427409

>>31427458
>>31427498
>>31427519
>>31427546
>>31428329
>>31428394

This is a good thread. Face it waifufags, Lillie was awful. My happiest moment in SM was when she left for Kanto because I wouldn't have to deal with her Mary Sue ass stopping me every 10 seconds to complain. Good fucking riddance. N wasn't the best thing since sliced bread or anything, but he was sure as hell better than Lillie.

Lillie<3

>>31429666
digits command, this shit thread is over

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>>31429633
She healed your pokemon I guess

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I want to see N again

>>31430623
Me too, I miss him.

Lillie, it's not even close, and she's not even that great.
N is overrated trash and probably the worst part of BW. Shut the fuck up kiddo I'm not releasing my Pokemon, not when you have fucking PokeBalls on you.

Also lol development, what development. Oh yeah, after you beat his ass he's like "ah... Maybe you're right" and fucks off to who knows where. At least Lillie developed throughout the game from a coward to having a "strong will". Nothing special, Wally did the same. Still better than N.

>>31427409
N is alright. I like his style.

Lillie made the game about her.

N made the game about MC.

I'll take N over Lillie anyday.

>>31427409
N

>ctrl+F lillie
>63
>ctrl+F N
>1,543
I think we know the real winner here.

>>31428329
>Physical strength is the only kind of strength

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>>31433561
>being so strong that you tell your mommy that your tired of her

Fuck Lillie, marry N

>>31427409
I actually want N to become my bf.

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>>31433520
Kek

>>31427660
>More character development.
I like Lillie but the most development she goes through is that she might become a trainer, woooow.
N goes from some weird fucking autist who thinks people enslave pokemon and are cruel to them and ends up being still a weird autist but accepts that people can be much better and, in the end, even defends them.

The fuck is up with people in this thread? I'll pick N too, but mostly for the memes. As far as character development and personailty goes, fucking Blue, Silver and Cheren are better than N. He was bland as fuck.

N actually has a personality beyond bubbly and useless. and based on the lines of the deleted BW protagonist in BW2, N's words actually had a lasting impact on their life

lillie just says a bunch of generic cute stuff and then "pokemon aren't things!" imagine being the designated waifu and yet being outclassed by suiren, mao, moon and even acerola

lillie literally cannot do anything right.

Colress

why can't game freak make a story that doesn't introduce an NPC specifically for the story to revolve around?

http://www.strawpoll.me/12137214

>>31434011
Like Gen 1 to 4? Boy, were those great stories.

>>31434027
those weren't stories

>>31434033
How so? What made them so different from, say, Gen 5?

>>31434045
not being stories

game freak either gives you no story or a story all about another character while you tag along to be their source of friendship/muscle

>>31434050
Listen, you fucking retard. Stories need characters. Yeah, fucking surprising, isn't it?
Gen 1 had just as much story as Gen 5, with Team Rocket attacking multiple areas, trying different things, a rival to overcome, Gym Leader being Team Rocket boss and all that shit. It didn't have any characters, exactly what you fucking want.

>>31434067
nah

I think they can make a story that involves your character more or at least one that doesn't put it all around one certain character you tag along with

>>31434077
Which is exactly what Gen 1 to 4 were. It was ALL you. There wasn't anything else.

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>>31429666
>666
shit, he's right

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>Choosing Lillie over N

>>31428251
>>31428124
This

If you're not on team N, you're just retarded.

>Is possibly a Zoroark
>Became the second Legendary Hero to claim one of the dragons of Truth/Ideals
>Becomes Champion

Lillie a shit.

>>31429666
Bow before Satan.
There will be no further objection.

>>31434617
Being perfectly honest, I'd pick Cheren, Bianca and Ghetsis over N any day. N is way too overrated. I mean that not as in too popular. Actually overrated.

He was just another villain. Almost Lysandre tier, just not evil. He starts out wanting to do something stupid, tells everyone exactly what it is, everyone ignores until shit hits the fan, and after he loses, he becomes good. Giovanni did this shit 20 years ago. Maxie and Archie were the same. The only difference is, he gets his Legendary and beats Alder. Yet, he's somehow revered as the greatest character of all time.

Lillie isn't great, but being better than N isn't hard.

literally my mom's daughter vs actually interesting and iconic character

>>31434646
There are definitely better characters in Gen 5 but, this is between Lillie and N.

My problem with Lillie is you can remove her entirely from the game, just have a lone cosmog wandering that you have to watch and the plot still works fine. The only thing that might not work is going back to ultra-space to get Lusamine but even then you could just do that with Gladion.

Not to mention her plan of taking cosmog doesn't make any sense. What was she planning on doing with it? She's not a trainer so she could never get it to level up and evolve on her own. Plus, she's stuck in this smallish region where Team Skull and Aether are pretty much everywhere so how would she not get caught eventually especially with cosmog constantly running away because she's not a trainer and therefore doesn't keep it in a pokeball.

There's no way she's a better character than N.

mmm this is hard
they are both good
but n wins bc i want him 2 dick me down

>>31434723
Those are all problems with the story. Well, most of them aren't even that and just you don't understand it, somehow, but that's not my point.
My point is that a character should be judged as a character. Their backstory, personality, character arc, overall development and conclusion. N is lacking in all of those except for backstory, which is a lot better than Lillie's.

>>31427409
>muh dick: the character or a whiny furfag with psycho dad from the worst generation
Choosing was never an option

>>31434753
So then, let's judge Lillie. She technically has the same backstory as Gladion so already it's not unique to Sun and Moon.

Her personality isn't really existent besides that she doesn't like seeing pokemon get hurt, which changes at the end because she decides to become a trainer anyway.

Her entire arc in the story is hey MC I need your help because I'm not a trainer and beyond deciding to become a trainer she doesn't develop as a character.

N doesn't have any of this but because his role in the story is much more integral he's just a better character overall.

Also, it's not that I don't understand, it's that we have different view points. As a character Lillie is really shitty. Compare her Gladion - despite having the same backstory, his personality is way more defined and you can gradually see his overall development from when you first meet him until the point where he trusts you enough with a Type: Null of your own.

>>31434800
>Her personality isn't really existent
Stopped reading there. I'm not going to claim Lillie is a great character, but if you somehow managed to miss something that was shoved into your face for the entirety of the game, then there's nothing to argue here.

>>31434823
When he say her personality isn't really existent he means it has vey little impact on her actions or uniqueness as a character I think

>>31434836
>inb4 she wears clothes

>>31434836
This.

>>31434836
My point still stands. Her personality and character development was so obvious that an actual 10 year old can understand it. If he thinks it was somehow less than N's, there's nothing to argue here. I admit defeat. Not to say I'm changing my view, but I don't believe I can convince the anon to see things rationally no matter how much I try.

I wonder how many people would be defending Lillie she was a dude and looked like Hau.

>>31434871
I mean there's devolpement. But she doesn't struggle at all.

>>31434883
Then it would be a completely opposite situation. A lot more will be defending him. Unless you're new here, it's pretty normal for /vp/ to shit on female characters just to appear more sophisticated.

>>31434907
Ha you're funny. You're telling me people hate Zinnia just because of her gender? That's what Zinniafags say too

>>31434907
>that angsty passive aggression
she would still be shit

>>31434918
Eh, Zinnia might be a bit of a stretch, because her personality is actually detestable, but Bianca definitely suffered the same fate.

>>31434935
Bianca is great though

>>31434953
Now, yes. But initially, she was a whole lot worse than Lillie. Bianca was a shit character people only liked because she was cute little blonde girl. Once that viewpoint became the norm, contrarians started liking her instead.

>>31434883
Hau is shit
Lillie is shit too but for slightly different reasons

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>there are people defending Lillie
>when she was easily the most annoying character in the game
>even more annoying than "dude malasadas lmao"
>if you get within a 3m radius of her an unnecessary cutscene triggers, at pretty much any point in the game
>"I want to get stronger" and then does the same shit as before, which is literally nothing
>doesn't want pokemon to get hurt and doesn't use pokeballs because of it, instead stuffs a pokemon in her bag where it is clearly uncomfortable
>"this is my z powered form", it's just a change of clothes but the same personality
>fuck, she has even less of a personality than a moldy slice of bread
>in fact bread can at least rot, she can't do shit
>"watch me run across this solid, wide, impossible to fall off bridge with three pokemon on it that don't show any interest in attacking me at all"
>does exactly that
>"wasn't that impressive?"
>no
>pouty face
Fuck, I hate her and everything she says and all these mindless waifufags trying to defend her and especially the fact that she has the same name as my cat fucking fuck

>>31434871
I don't think it was less than N's but just not enough to make her a more impacting character than N in fact, I actually believe she's more like a less developed Gladion.

>They both take pokemon from Lusamine, but Gladion partners with his while Lillie has the MC bodyguard her.

>They both needed to find their own identity because they were used to being accessories to Lusamine. Gladion does this first on his own and it takes the MC to push Lillie to do so.

>They both became trainers to become stronger but again, Gladion does this first and, again, it takes the MC to push Lillie to do so.

>They both needed to learn to stand up to Lusamine - Gladion learns this much earlier than Lilie though.

In the end, Lillie just developed to a point where Gladion already was while Gladion continued to develop from when you first meet him. This is why I think she's a shitty character. If the thread was Gladion or N, I'd be on team Gladion for sure.

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>>31435035
>Waah! Waah! A girl talked to me! Waah! Waah!
Not everyone who likes her is a waifufag. And, while this might come off as a surprise to you, Lillie is just as popular among girls as she is with boys, across all ages. The term to better describe her would be "a likeable and sympathetic character", rather than waifubait.

>>31435035
That Guzma pic is exactly my reaction while reading some lillieposters on this thread.

It's like all reality is warped and common sense no longer exists.

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>>31435087
>a likeable and sympathetic character
That's some hot garbage you're spouting and you know it. Mostly the only reason people like her is because she looks pretty. That's it.
But yes, she definitely is pathetic. A pathetic attempt at creating a good character.

>>31435087
>Lillie is just as popular among girls as she is with boys, across all ages
[citation needed]

>>31427409
As much as I love Lillie and want to mating-press her, N is the better character.

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>>31433520
Kek.

>>31433814
>based on the lines of the deleted BW protagonist in BW2

Do you have a link where I can read these?

>>31435213
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pok%C3%A9mon_Black_2_and_White_2_beta

He's being retarded though. What Hilbert/Hilda say in BW2 is what they always said. It was N who these words had impact on, not the other way around.

>>31435242
>"Hilbert/Hilda: Make your dreams come true! Someone once encouraged me to do that. Even now, I'm continuing my journey to realize those dreams."

>>31435259
>"You communicate with Pokémon using feelings, not words! Everything can be understood through Pokémon battles! Let's go!"
I was talking about this part, rather than a generic dreams part. I wouldn't really consider that dream part having "impact" in any way, but fair enough.

>>31435308
This too

" I'll leave you with words someone told me once. Dream your dream!"

>>31427409
Storytelling reasons: N.

Waifhusbando: N.

¡N is better all ways!

>>31428251
>A 20-ish man who slowly goes from being a King to realizing everything he believed in was a lie and have to accept others' views

>Implying N accepts your ideals at full.
N Take the best of two ideologies and make someting better, to turn it his point of view. He also fight back vs Ghetisis authority.

I didnt played Sun-Moon but N is by far one of the best pkmn characters and Lillie looks like waiufu material.

Lillie would have been a better waifu if she didn't change to a worse design

Colress

>>31435087
As a girl, I dislike Lillie. Mostly because they don't differentiate between the male/female players in the dialogue. As a girl it kinda feels like why does this bitch get special treatment? Why am I being asked to protect her as a younger girl who has no experience as a trainer? Go cling to Hau if you're gonna be this pathetic. I don't give a shit.

I just had a thought what if Wally is the love child of N and Lillie?

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None, Colress is better

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>The faggots are still arguing
I didn't realize you fags were this retarded. Fucking releas yourselves.

>>31435490
This. The player is forced to babysit this girl despite the fact that there are other competent trainers that can help her out. Not just a few though, there are a lot. All the kahunas, all the captains, Hau, Gladion, Kukui etc. There was really no reason to have her cling to the MC at all and she feels like a poorly done, forced character.

>>31433808
Cheren is Great in order N is great.
I mean, cheren Is the Ghetsis counter character. Bought want become stronger, but one of them want the power to protect, safe and help the others, meanwhile the other want power to dom. the world. N is the MC counter character. His ideology is opposite to your ideology about pkmns, but at the end, he complements your ideology and you complement his own ideology. Its a great Plot.

>Silver and Blue.
Silver is the prototype of N, a rival who evolves onto a """""friend"""""" and evolve of a autistic "i need to be stronger" guy to give the fuck off of his father ideology and fight for his own ideals

>Blue

Wat.

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>>31435533

Ehhhhh. EHHHHH.

Yeah OK.

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>this thread is still alive

>>31429675
So, if you beat the game without losing once, your story is trash? Good to know.

>>31429997
"Trainers communicate through battle and I wanna get in on this" is certainly an idea that Pokemon welcomes, but there are some catches. For one, it doesn't work if the parties aren't on equal ground, or else the beginner will just get stomped on without being able to communicate much of anything besides "Ouch". At least as importantly, though, the time to implement this idea is not when lives are at stake, even if you think that Lusamine was the only one endangered by her own actions.

You're essentially exchanging passively bad writing, where Lillie doesn't try to help until the story's over, with actively bad writing where Lillie "heroically" puts untrained Pokemon in danger, against her established character, just to feel like she's helping you. Again, I know that she should've tried becoming a Trainer or fucking done something before the story ended, but that isn't the way to do it.

>>31434067
>Stories need characters
>Gen 1 had a story but no characters
???

>>31435567
>Silver is the prototype of N
The fuck? If anything, N is a bootlag Silver. Silver slowly becomes more friendly as the game goes on, due to a multitude of reasons. He had reasons for hating the weak and TR.
N saw Pokemon and Trainer being happy, and refused to accept that. You kick his ass, he accepts it. That's literally all of N's """development""".

>>31435608
Welp, in my opinion idl Silver because vereything looks like its happening to evolve as a character, and feels artificial. N dev looks more dynamic. You live some of his evolution moments, some others you dont, and even he is rour real "rival", he doesnt feel tha main history of the game.

Silver is more like
1st encounter: Fk u, u win me, i hate you
Last Encounter: Arg, you win me, dammit, i dont like you, i need to be more strong.

On gen2 the MC makes Silver evolve.
On gen5 the MC and N bought retro-evolves the one whit the other. Feels more real, less "unidirectional":

>>31427409
Definitely N

N>Lillie
Lusamine>Ghetsis

Did I do good?

>>31435738
yes
this is the objectively right opinion

>>31435712
Isn't that the exact fucking problem with N?

1st enounter: releas
Last encounter: Okay, I was wrong, don't release them. Oh, and I noticed Pokemon and people were happy together.

Silver actually starts having doubts long before the final battle, and by the final battle, he's a completely different character. Suck N's dick all you want, doesn't change the fact that he had zero development until the final battle.

>>31435738
>Lusamine>Ghetsis
Objectively wrong.

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>>31428023
>his development happened off screen
Not necessarily. What we the player saw was the most defining point of N's character development, and that was when we fight him in N's castle and defeat him, which is the moment which completely changes his world.
For the entirety of BW since he fought you in Accumula he'd been questioning the relationship between humans and Pokemon more and more every time he fought you and with every trainer he saw in this world that he'd never been part of. He realized for a long time that you weren't wrong, but he didn't want to admit or accept that. Some people can only be appealed to with force, and beating N at the end of BW really brings that all home for him and he realizes right there that he was wrong.
The player starts the fire of his development, but we dont necessarily get to see it grow. But that's fine because we don't need to. We already know the kind of things that N experienced and saw in the two year gap between BW1 and BW2, because its everything WE saw when playing both of those games and talking to trainers who told us they love their Pokemon.
Also N thread.

>>31435817
t. unovabortion

Ghestis is by far the worst villain, much as Plasma is the worst team

>>31435844
>For the entirety of BW since he fought you in Accumula he'd been questioning the relationship between humans and Pokemon more and more every time he fought you and with every trainer he saw in this world that he'd never been part of. He realized for a long time that you weren't wrong, but he didn't want to admit or accept that.
You literally see none of that. It might as well have not happened. The thing about character development is that it only works right when you see it. If a character appears at two different points, and acts a bit differently because development happened off screen, it means nothing. Even a kid can write that.

N: Pokemon are suffering
N: I want legendary Pokemon to release them
N: Maybe they're not suffering
N: Okay, they weren't

See, I made "chacacter development" happen in this very post. Pad it up with a few extra lines of dialogue, and that's off screen development. If you think you don't need to see development happen for it to work, you don't know what you're talking about.

>>31435902
You can do the same thing with Silver though

Silver: My Pokemon suck and you suck too
Silver: You're pretty good, but my Pokemon still suck
Silver: Okay maybe I suck.

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>>31435902
>You literally see none of that. It might as well have not happened.
We may not see it blatantly displayed right in front of our faces, but it doesn't need to be. It's called subtlety. If something is implied correctly it doesn't need to be spelled out in big letters to the player. Every time you run into N in BW1 and battle him you can see he's changing little by little. Although at the time he's still in his resistant and rejecting different ideas phase, but you know he only rejects you so vehemently because inside he's more doubtful than ever. You are changing him. The world is changing him, and little by little you can see that happening to when it all culminates at the final battle at the Pokemon league.

If N is developing (and understanding the relationship between people and Pokemon better) because he's seeing the exact same things we're seeing as we play the game, then we don't need to see that.

>>31435948
Yes, and I'm not going to deny that. What makes Silver better though is that you can see a lot more of it. He doesn't have as much dialogue, but it's all meaningful. We also SEE his past with Giovanni, his battle with Lance. He starts developing a lot sooner than N, and does so on a greater scale.

>>31435975
Subtlety implies it his development was at least hinted at. Of all the times you encounter him, he has ONE line before Pokemon League that implies his views have changed a bit. Other than that, he goes on about random things each time he meets you, and connects those things to releasing Pokemon. That's not good development. Good development is Cheren's, who you see start out strong, be hungry for power, meet Alder and show doubt about his views, to finally becoming a better person by the end.
Saying N "grows little by little even if you don't see it" is the same as saying LITERALLY everyone is growing little by little, we just don't see it.

>>31436046
N's development is through accepting differing ideas. Only once he accepts different ideas can exist he challenges his own in Pokémon

Which is why he wants to seal you out and talk to you because he is so fascinated by you

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>>31436046
I'm not saying N's character development goes completely unseen. It merely happens as a slow, steady escalation. And we do see it. You can see his views steadily beginning to change bit by bit in every encounter you have with him. Many times before you fight him at the Pokemon league he questions you and himself on if a world where people and Pokemon remain together is really the best one. Although it also may not seem like it since at the same time he's denying your views at the same time he's struggling to try and accept them.

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you should be able to solve this

>>31436132
>And we do see it. You can see his views steadily beginning to change bit by bit in every encounter you have with him.

Give examples, then. Other than this one line.
>"As a result... Pokémon and Trainers who care about one another, like you and your Pokémon, will be separated. And that does break my heart a little."

And even this line isn't really development. He asked your Pokemon's feelings, and he was clearly told by your Pokemon that they were happy. He is just stating what he heard from you Pokemon.
If you can provide examples of him showing doubt or slowly changing his views, that's one thing. But until after you beat him, that one line is all the development he has. After you get to the league, it goes from being at 5% to a 100% in a single go. That's forced as fuck. Not "development". It's more like replacing the character with a different one.

the problem with lillie is that her proper development started too late in the story, so by the time you get to see her really change she's already leaving for kanto

if her development in the story was a bit faster (maybe even to the point where she could battle alongside/against you with pokemon of similar levels) i think a lot less people on /vp/ would hate her

normies loved her regardless though so

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>>31436196
The entire first encounter with him in Accumula town.
>After the first damaging, non-KO hit
>"More! Let me hear the voice of your Pokémon!"
>Being defeated
>"I never expected to hear Pokémon say such things..."

In Nimbasa when you battle him
>After the first damaging, non-KO hit
>"Your Pokémon look happy."

In Chargestone
>After the first damaging, non-KO hit
>"Do you believe that Pokémon battles help us understand one another?"

Like I said before its subtle, and even N is still struggling to accept the ideas you're fighting for as well. Whenever he thinks "maybe Pokemon and humans should be together" he also rejects that thought because of everything he's been force-fed to believe all his life by Ghetsis. A person who has been conditioned to believe something cant willingly accept other points of view so easily. This is why every time N vehemently rejects your ideas (like his freak out on Juniper in Chargestone, or his conversation with you outside the Mistralton Gym) it's an example of how inside he is in turmoil questioning if you might actually be right. He only actually admits that to you after the final battle, which makes all his comments BEFORE then come together in one moment. It's called build up and connecting all the little bits and pieces they've given you during the entire story.

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>>31427657
>when 3D can actually pull off bestgirl

>>31436369
>>"I never expected to hear Pokémon say such things..."
>>"Your Pokémon look happy."

Those are FACT. How the fuck is that development? Explain. Just saying it's "subtle" doesn't cut it. If I see Pokemon happy, calling it happy isn't changing views or anything. It's not subtle. It's shitty. That's the word you're looking for.

I gave up completely. You have no idea what development even means. I don't mind people sucking N's dick. I do too. But calling this shit character development is bullshit of a new level. Calling it BETTER than Silver's or Cheren's is another thing entirely. It means you're fucking delusional.
Fuck, I'm pissed now. "Your Pokémon look happy." is fucking development. Fuck.

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He´s way more interesting. And is on my top 3.

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>>31427409

>>31436438
He has been raised his entire life to never see a single Pokémon have a good experience with a trainer due to Ghetsis

To him you're an anomaly

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>>31436438
>If I see Pokemon happy, calling it happy isn't changing views or anything
It is for N. Keep in mind what kind of person he is and how he's lived all his life. He's been brainwashed basically. N at the start of the game thinks that ALL trainers only abuse Pokemon through battle and that its a bad and toxic relationship. Yes what he's saying "Your Pokemon look happy" is a fact, but the fact that he's admitting it, and that he can SEE it is important and an example that he is beginning to change and see other points of view and how the world really is.
Because up until now he's never seen a Pokemon that loved its trainer before. He's never seen a Pokemon say that it wanted to stay with its trainer. This is something alien to him, and he's just beginning to accept it.

I also never said Cheren or Silver had better or worse development than N. They are all different characters to develop in their own unique ways to become better people and to overcome their short comings. As long as a character does that, they can grow.
I just don't believe N has bad character development. I think we was executed very well.

>>31436438

Welp, he never supposed that a pkmn could be happy on trainers hands. So relief that a pkmn its happy whit his trainer broke one of his pilars on his idea of a happy world.

Of course, since he reveals you he is the """king""" of team Plasma, he is not going to show his doubts to you at your face, but you can feel it on how he talks and how his ideals come less agresives.

Obv is not a great charactwr or something like that but he's obv one of the top best characters of the franch. and hightly supperior to Lillie.

>>31436494
>>31436438
To N you are showing him not everything is Black or white

The literal core theme of the games and naming convention that the titles are based around

>>31436494
>>31436502
Yes, it's weird for him to see that. But that's about it. It leads to fucking nothing until the end of the fucking game. It's not something he came up with on his own or something that changes him. He sees a happy Pokemon. He ignoring it and still gives zero fucks. It leads to nothing until you literally beat him into submission. You can sugarcoat that into saying he accepts your views, but that doesn't change how you have take away all his fucking options just to get that development.

Fuck, I wasn't going to reply, but this is actually ridiculous. N just seeing something he believed doesn't exist is now character development? No, it fucking not. It would be if that affected his CHARACTER in any meaningful way until the very fucking end of the game.

>>31436567
>person slowly changing their world view is now development
Yes

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>>31436567
>It's not something he came up with on his own
because it couldn't be something that he comes up with on his own. You also need to take into account N is a very close minded person and he's also very childish. The important thing about interacting and forming relationships with other people with different opinions than you is that they change your points of view. Some things you will never be able to realize until you experience it by interacting with another person and having them show you a new side of something you never considered before.

>but that doesn't change how you have take away all his fucking options just to get that development.

Which is also the point. Black and White would have never had the climax and grand impact that it did at the end if N had never resisted you to the very last. His beliefs, although lies, were VERY deeply rooted and extreme measures needed to be taken to really snap him out of his delusions. To break him out of the fake world he'd been living in all his life. It's culmination.
It's a climax of a character and of a story.

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>>31436620
Yes, it being the point is cool and all, but that doesn't excuse shit progression. He goes from noticing small things, but in no way letting those affect him, to completely accepting them. That's not good development. That's shit.


>>31436609
>>person never changing their world view or himself and at the end suddenly making a 180 is now development
FTFY

>>31427409
N didn't get in my fucking way as much.

>>31436703
>>>>>>>>180

Stop. We've address how he is curious about seeking out you the trainer as the anomaly

>>31427531
Silver had like 0 personality.

>>31436703
What is a good character development then from antagonist view then

>>31428023
>His character development all happened off screen,
Actually it all happened in the interactions he had with the player. About half way even he questions what Plasma is doing because your pokemon enjoy being with you.

>>31436721
He stays the same throughout the entire game. That's a fucking fact. Him EVENTUALLY changing because of the things he saw IS taking a 180. He goes on about the same things throughout the entire game, despite all he's seen. He doesn't hesitate even a single bit.

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>>31436703
I like your graph, and it's also not wrong. But that's not to say he didn't develop at all during BW1 and did a complete 180 by the end. Your graph even shows that it was a steady escalation which led to one big revelation of character by the end.
The climax of BW1 was more like breaking through a wall. The only way for N to truly understand and reject the points of view he'd been force-fed all his life is to beat it out of him one on one, as a hero, with a legendary dragon.
When he loses, when you beat him, when you destroy his beliefs and dreams in front of his eyes, everything he saw out there in the world comes together and now makes sense to him.

>"It's about when I first met you in Accumula Town. I was shocked when I heard what your Pokémon was saying. I was shocked because that Pokémon said it liked you. It said it wanted to be with you."
>"I couldn't understand it. I couldn't believe there were Pokémon that liked people. Because, up until that moment, I'd never known a Pokémon like that. The longer my journey continued, the more unsure I became. All I kept meeting were Pokémon and people who communicated with one another and helped one another. That was why I needed to confirm my beliefs by battling with you. I wanted to confront you hero-to-hero. I needed that more than anything."

>>31427409
I just wanted to force Lily to become a trainer the whole time. I mean what is the big deal are you scared of them or something? Here at least carry my eggs until they hatch.

>>31435522
>Lilliefag wet dreams cucked by N

Kek.

>>31434935
Not actually a Zinniafag (she's okay, I guess, not my favorite), but her personality isn't detestable, but... childish. She was arrogant and tried to place too much on her own shoulders. If you talk to her grandma, you'll find out that she was trying to fit into a role that wasn't for her out of respect/love/admiration for whoever that role /was/ for as it's implied that they died. Poor exposition on GF's part, but that's nothing new.

As for Lillie versus N... I'd go with N's premise over Lillie's, but the execution of Lillia's premise was better.