Kanto

If you count every game to have a canon story, then no because all champions have lost to children, the players
But if you dont count every game as having continuity, then probably yes, but the child that beat them is the same child that captured creatures from another dimension and saved the region

Isn't the Sun/Moon protagonist from Kanto instead of Alola anyway?

Overall it just seems like the younger trainers are able to get stronger quicker than their older opponents, who either stagnate or hold back.

>>31389163
I don't think so.

While Blue has canonically lost to Red, I don't think Red has ever canonically lost to anyone (since it is never mentioned or confirmed). In fact, I don't think it's ever canonically confirmed that any champion has ever lost to any player character outside of their respective games (apart from N to the protag of BW). The player characters (apart from Red) basically don't even seem to exist outside of their respective games as well which makes these "canon" statements pretty doubtful.

>>31390201
Cynthia mentions the Platinum protag in B/W

>>31389163
post game isn't canon

>>31389284
To be fair, most other champs were beaten by characters wielding powerful legendaries.
Red, Blue and Ethan were just normal trainers.

>>31390201
>The player characters (apart from Red) basically don't even seem to exist outside of their respective games
Well outside of the numerous call backs to the events of those games.

>>31391411
Battle facilities aren't.
Anything else is.

>>31389163
Didn't Kukui say he lost to Kanto's league? And since he was the strongest in Alola, Kanto's League is canonically stronger than Alola's, no?
I don't think the main character denotes an entire region's power, anyway, the protags are all overpowered as hell.

>>31389163
>I've only been playing pokemon for two years and I just want to tell everybody how shit Kanto is

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>>31389163
>there [sic] champions lost to children who haven't been training long at all multiple times
You mean like in every other game?

It's cause they're training new pokemon. If they used their mains you'd be trounced. Also would explain why Reds mons are lower level than his fight in Gold/Silver.

>>31391411
>>31391436
Loving this canon meme.

You faggots are retarded

>>31391548
>Loving this canon meme.
You mean the one that's existed as long as written media?

>>31391436
>What is Caitlin
>What is Anabel
The simplest to have it all make sense is to say the world exists, but the protagonists don't go around doing a lot of shit in it anymore, since it's all optional content. And sure enough, nothing so far contradicts that.

>>31391635
Sorry, he's just too retarded to understand the story of a children's game.

Alola mon are just buff af. They drop 3x the Exp compared to other regions.

>>31389284
>all champions have lost to children
Diantha is the strongest champion, then, because Calem and Serena are adults according to Looker (also they are confirmed to be older than 16)

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>>31389163
>Gladio
>"You know why being a Trainer is so great? Because when you’re battling, it doesn’t matter if you’re a kid or an adult. Everyone’s equal in Pokémon battle!"

>OP
>"hur hur they lose to children what a weak champion"

>>31391414
By the time you got to the E4, Red could have half of his team be legendary birds.
Ethan/Gold could have Ho-oh/Lugia on his team as well as any of the roaming beasts.

None of the events in any of the games are canon.

>>31391905
Isn't the main argument against postgame is that optional things are not canon? Red catching the Birds is optional, and in HGSS, you can see they haven't been caught.

>>31390201
The Ethan/Lyra one seemed pretty canon

>>31391905
>Red could have
The key word being "could".
Protags like the BW, XY, ORAS and SM ones capture legends as plot elements making it a certainty that they have them.

>>31391912
What's with this "no one can discuss canon anymore!" meme come from?
Is it just one guy who's pissed that his headcanon doesn't fit or something?

>>31391680
>>31391411
>>31391436
Let's not turn this into headcanon general

Between the machine part loss being mentioned in two games after HGSS, Delta Episode, end credits after the Red fight, Silver and Giovanni's link only showing up in an event, and the Looker quest, among other things, im not gonna buy the post game isn't canon meme

>>31392059
Yeah, people start pushing poatgame isn't canon once someone mentions something that doesn't fit their own interpretation.

The first place I really saw this showing up was Redfags in every protagonist thread

>>31392071
It's not a meme. Optional content, which players might not play, is not considered canon in any game, not just Pokemon.

>Delta Episode
Not optional. Part of the story. Locks optional content until you complete it.

>end credits after the Red fight
There's the Hilbert argument that works pretty well against it.

>Silver and Giovanni's link only showing up in an event
That shows up in postgame, event mon only event. There's basically zero chance of that being canon. Not to say the event didn't happen, just that Celebi didn't take Ethan back in time to show this to him.

>>31392104
So you're saying the event is canon but the thing that actually caused it to happen isn't?

You can see what someone will find that nonsensical right?

In fact, your fight with Giovanni is literally the reason he doesn't go to Goldenrod. Its very canon. No idea what the Hilbert fight does.

Different games consider different things canon and mentioning them is irrelevant.

Plenty of important story elements are revealed or experiences before the end credits.

>>31392104
Getting the Chaos Emeralds and beating Eggman with them is always the optional, more likely to be missed by players ending but it is also always the canon one

>>31392137
*after the end credits

>In fact, your fight with Giovanni is literally the reason he doesn't go to Goldenrod. Its very canon. No idea what the Hilbert fight does.
No? I never fought Giovanni in HGSS, because like more than half the fanbase, I did not have the Celebi. Giovanni didn't appear either way.

I can understand why someone would find it nonsensical, but it is the the appears to work.

>So you're saying the event is canon but the thing that actually caused it to happen isn't?
Uh, no. They can play out just fine without the protagonist. Some examples of how they can were given in Generations, and if you won't even accept that as an example, there's BW. In BW, only Hilbert can go and catch Kyurem from Giant Chasm. But even if you do or do not, Kyurem will be gone from it by BW2. The event will play out.

>>31392189
Was replying to >>31392137

>>31390201
>characters exclusive to one region don't exist
Holy fucking autism. How far will some of you fucks go to pretend as if Red's never lost? I can give you PWT, but everything else is pretty much canon.

Also, Hilbert is mentioned plenty of times in BW2, do your research.

>>31391900
>one character's opinion deserves to be above everyone elses
>one child who just started training should be equal to a grown man who has been training for a decade
Wew

>>31392184
They certainly can play out without them, but if your interpretation involves looking bat an event we literally see and saying it turned out differently, I don't think that's going to convince many people to understand your point. The main game can also play out without the main characters.

>"You have a certain look... It reminds me of the kid who stood in front of me three years ago... You have the same eyes... I'm on my way to Goldenrod City to answer the call and join my team. Are you going to get in my way?"

That's in the Celebi event where Giovanni literally hears the broadcast from the Radio Tower but doesn't return because you beat him.

>>31392189
>>31392220
I mean, how canon an event is doesn't depend on whether fans got to play it, but whether they are significant to the world or story. We don't even know if half the people who buy a Pokemon game even get to the end. But that doesn't mean it's non canon because a lot of people miss it.

You're mistaking GF not wanting to mention either protag to make a gender canon with GF not wanting to mention them because they didn't do anything

>>31392220
You get a Celebi, which you shouldn't even have canonically, and it takes you back in time to meet somehow you don't even know, and you beat him, even though not beating him is how you're SUPPOSED to play.
How does any of this makes sense to you? By this logic, Ethan have an Arceus given to him by a random stranger and got an egg containing a Legendary.

>They certainly can play out without them, but if your interpretation involves looking bat an event we literally see and saying it turned out differently
But that's not my interpretation. This is what the games tell you.

It's not my argument, I saw another anon make it, and I'll try to recite what he said.

In FRLG, you can catch 2 Snorlax, all of the Legendary Birds and Mewtwo. But in HGSS, only one Snorlax had been captured, none of the Legendary Birds or Mewtwo were even touched. This implies that the optional encounters didn't happen for Red.
Similar things happen in BW. In BW, you can catch The Swords of Justice, Kami trio and Kyurem, but none of them were with Hilbert in BW2. Again, it implies the optional encounters were left alone.

I can't find as many examples in other games, because only these two allow us to visit a previous region at a later point in time. But during these two visits, all the things point in optional things not being canon, and not a single one says otherwise.

There's also characters making references. For example, a lot of people call Hilbert the hero in BW2, but no one considers him a Champion, because you can only become Champion postgame in BW.
Cynthia mentions Lucas fighting Giratina during the maingame. But HGSS Grunt in BW doesn't mention Ethan at all. Like he wasn't even there during the event. There is NO reason not to mention him, but he doesn't.

I will try to stay open-minded, anon. I will believe you if there's reason to. But as of now, we have ZERO proof of it. GF has actively avoided giving us any. Even in a fanservice anime like Generation they avoided it.

>>31389163
That, or they're the strongest, having beating Champions from Unova. Considering you can lose each and every single of those battles without it effecting the story in any way, I see no reason to think they lost. :^)

>Unova and Alola
The Alolan Champion is also a Kantocock. :^)

>>31392365
Your argument against canon should never be "but its unlikely/makes no sense, because it happened. Look at the Zelda timeline. One can say that it makes no sense that LttP happens after Link loses, but that's irrelevant because it actually happened.

The Celebi is never yours, it just had to be in your party. A Celebi meeting the player is very in the realm of possibility since we know Mega Flug joins your team, and so does Zekrom/Reshiram, and Latios/Latias. So it makes perfect sense in all honestly. Nothing in the event is farfetched.

The Arceus event is way harder to swallow, I admit, but between the significant lore event and the fact that we actually have official art of Ethan/Lyra with Arceus at Sinjoh, GameFreak certainly doesn't think its too fantastical

>that's what the game tells you
No it doesn't

Your implication with the last part is that I think absolutely every possible event is canon, when I stated (I think) that its not that everything is or isn't canon, but that its case by case. A legendary encounter is canon if it has any significant story element to it, but that does not mean any of them are caught.

>>31392365
>>31392489
Anyways, I won't be able to comment much further but nothing really points to the events I specifically stated being non canon, with your interpretation that the events happened without the characters not being enough for me to be convinced. Good conversation though.

>>31392212
If you think about it, it's not just experience, but strategies, grinding and the like.

This always what these threads come. Every fucking time. As soon as Red is mentioned, it turns into canon "discussion", and there is always the same arguments being made. One side says that since there is no proof any protagonist doing any optional events, it isn't canon. The other side says since it is in the games, it must be canon.

How does this not get boring? None of you look at the other's argument, and just go on about your own beliefs.

>>31392201
Prove one time Red lost

>>31393027
He did. You beat him in HGSS, BW2 and SM.

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>>31391411
just a question, is post game isnt canon, then why Caitlin as an elite 4 member

>>31393060
Because Battle Frontier and Caitlin exist?

>>31393036
Is it ever mentioned in the games' dialogue or anything else GF published?

>>31393085
You get credits after you beat him. They don't need to mention something so obvious.

>>31392601
It always starts because some Redfag doesn't like the fact that his character has the least feats,and so the thread starts out talking about why half of everyone else's feats don't count. Then canonfags come in and actually start debating what is and isn't canon. I can't deny that I'm a huge canonfag but it gets old when nobody is saying anything new, and its all interpretation

Doesn't that make Hilbert the strongest?

>>31390201
Red loses to Gold
You get ending credits after you beat him.
It's canon.
Stop pretending it's not.

>>31394185
No one denies that Red has the least feats. They just argue he's still the strongest.

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These arguments always go the same way.

>>31394218
how so?

>Canon fags arguing about power levels again.

The active protaganist always wins because they're being controlled by a player in a video game. If we ever played as Red again in a new game and he fought any of the protags who fought him already, Red would win those fights.

>>31394309
>The active protaganist always wins because they're being controlled by a player in a video game
Even that isn't true. Literally everyone has lost battles at one point or another.

>>31394335

That doesn't change my point that power level arguments are retarded.

>>31394309
no shit. it's unfair because it depends on who the player is controlling, but that doesn't change that he's still the weakest from a story perspective all the same.

>>31394349
People aren't arguing about the power levels. They're arguing whether Red lost to Ethan or not. He might be weakest of them all, still irrelevant. They're just arguing if the postgame event should be considered canon or not.

>>31394377
the way i go about deciding if something is canon or not boils down to what makes sense. you see some people arguing that one post game event confirmed canon makes all post game canon or that one event that can't be canon instantly means all post game is non-canon. Both are retarded beyond belief.

Really, all you need to do is pick and choose what's most likely to be canon based on future and prior events in the series. If it contradicts nothing, it's most likely canon. If it contradicts a clearly established plot, then it's most likely non-canon. The most common argument against this is "durr you can't cherrypick what is and isn't canon!" but they conveniently forget that GTS, something that lets the protag trade with different versions of themselves, was introduced in the main game, but still can't possibly be canon.

>>31394522
>but they conveniently forget that GTS
Not really? Shouldn't it count under the "optional content" category mentioned many times in this very thread? GTS exists as way to let people trade Pokemon far away. Protagonist doesn't use it, neither is he trading with other version of himself.

>>31394522
What you're talking about is 'headcanon'

>>31394571
It counts as optional content just as the random legendaries scattered throughout each game count as optional content, yet they use them as arguments for post game being non-canon all the same.

>>31394796
i don't think you understand what that word means.

>>31394799
You seem confused. No one is denying the existence of those Legendaries. Their existence isn't optional. The optional part is encountering them.

>>31393085
it is mentioned, actually. Blue congratulates you if you beat Red on Friday. Not that it HAS to be mentioned to be canon, I have no idea where people got this impression from.

>>31394335
Ok, so that teacher in Sun Moon is stronger than Red and Blue than.

>>31394833
Did you know that Oak congratulates you for catching Groudon/Kyogre and completing the PokeDex in HGSS? Is that canon too?

>>31394825
No, YOU seem to be confused. My argument wasn't that their existence is optional, it's that it's unfair to use them as an argument for post-game being non-canon and completely ignore the improbability of GTS being canon. They're both optional content, so neither can be used to disprove their entire story segments as non-canon.

>>31394865
Nope, it's an optional event that is more put there for the sake of rewarding players who devoted that much time to completing the games and not at all important to the games as a whole. Gold beating Red, however, is on an entirely different of importance and can actually be possible in-game unlike transferring all the pokemon from different gens into your pokedex to actually finish it.

One is distinctly impossible from a story standpoint and the other isn't, so comparing the two is incorrect.

>>31394876
But entire postgame is optional. The parts that aren't, like Delta Episode, are accepted by everyone as canon. It's not "postgame so it's non-canon".

>>31394933
It doesn't actually require trading. You just need to get National Dex and Kanto Starters, and a Kyogre/Groudon will appear in HGSS. It is an in-game event.

>>31394814
>the way i go about deciding if something is canon or not boils down to what makes sense.
>Really, all you need to do is pick and choose what's most likely to be canon based on future and prior events in the series.

They are going on what makes sense to them, not anything specifically stated by the game's creators. Sounds like 'headcanon' to me.

>>31392365
>even though not beating him is how you're SUPPOSED to play.


You're supposed to beat Giovanni, disheartening him, and making him unwilling to head to the Radio Tower.

>>31394934
Optional by what measure? The entire adventure is completely optional. You COULD choose to wait in your own room and never start your adventure just like you COULD choose to never go to Kanto or finish Platinum's post-game. Doesn't mean that they're viable choices that GF would ever consider canon.

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My canons are complex

>>31395013
As in it's not part of the story. There are no reasons to do this. The story has ended, and whatever else you're doing is just for fun.

>>31394979
No, getting region exclusive pokemon like a good chunk of the Sinnoh legends is what's impossible for Gold/Ethan to do, therefore, him completing the Dex cannot be canon.

>>31395027
Post-game is obviously supposed to be a continuation of the story and plot lines so there's no reason to consider it non-canon.

>>31395038
"Impossible"? But you can literally encounter and throw a Master Ball at them, in-game without any trading or bullshit. It's as "impossible" as Ethan beating Red.

>>31394218
No. He's a pretty low tier protag in feats. Also, him having a legendary doesn't mean much when Brendan and Calem have even stronger legendaries.

Red is the weakest because he's the only one with a canon loss, and his enemy team is also the weakest overall.
If postgame isn't canon, ORAS Brendan is the strongest overall.
If postgame is canon, Nate is the strongest trainer.

>>31395070
What are you actually talking about? I thought it was clear that I didn't mean every Sinnoh legend, just the ones that don't appear in game. Completing the Pokedex and beating Red are nowhere near the same in terms of impossibility. Tell me, how could Ethan get a Manaphy? Or Cresselia? Or Shaymin? Or Darkrai?

>>31395053
Continuation of a story that been discarded many times and have never been officially recognized. And one you don't need to give any shits about. Like catching the Sages in BW. Sure, continuation, but it leads to nothing and isn't ever recognized. The canonfags argue that until given any evidence, even a small reference, it's not canon, because there's too much against it.

>>31395121
Not how it works. Not all post game is canon just like how not all post game is non-canon. It isn't black and white.

>>31395123
Need help moving that goalpost to Unova legends next? I only mentioned Groudon and Kyogre, the ones that were supposed to be in Hoenn.

>>31395133
What do you mean it leads to nothing? It leads to the sages being redeemed in Black and White 2 and them learning to face the consequences for their actions and atone. And duh, clearly not every post-game event is going to be overtly stated as canon in a game series filled with isolated stories. That doesn't mean that they're any less legitimate. How would YOU incorporate some of the events in the BW post game into, say, Sun and Moon? It is not mentioned not because it is non-canon, it's not mentioned because it's not relevant to that particular game's plot.

>>31395200
>clearly not every post-game event is going to be overtly stated as canon in a game series filled with isolated stories
The thing is, not a single one has. For a series filled with isolated stories, it sure has contradicted a lot of them.

>How would YOU incorporate some of the events in the BW post game
I can at least implement it in BW2. Which completely discarded all of BW's postgame and optional content.

Really, the only argument you're presenting is "it must be canon because it makes sense to me", even though they've discarded those thing that "make sense" time and again over the last 20 years and never once recognized them.
This just stupid at this point.

>>31395161
>No, getting region exclusive pokemon like a good chunk of the Sinnoh legends is what's impossible for Gold/Ethan to do
^quote from me

You didn't read the post you replied to because I mentioned that a good amount of the Sinnoh legends were impossible to get in HGSS, meaning that Gold could never finish the dex. You argued that the Hoenn legendaries could be caught with a throw of a master ball for pretty much no reason.

I'm just gonna stop arguing here because it's apparent that you have no real argument.

>>31391900
So what your saying is, the child who just started training Pokémon has so much talent they can catch up, and match a champion of Pokémon in little over a month

I don't see how that makes them look better at all

>>31395261
>The thing is, not a single one has
Completely wrong. The Magma and Aqua couple and the Team Rocket member from Vermillion City were both mentioned in the Unova games.

>Which completely discarded all of BW's postgame and optional content.

Except no it didn't and I explained why it didn't in the post you responded to. Are you even reading the posts you're arguing against?

>>31395263
Fuck the Sinnoh legends then. I was wrong about the Pokedex.

You can still encounter. Hoenn Legends and get dialogue for them. That must be canon, then?

>>31395297
>Completely wrong. The Magma and Aqua couple and the Team Rocket member from Vermillion City were both mentioned in the Unova games.
Refer to this >>31394825

>Except no it didn't and I explained why it didn't in the post you responded to. Are you even reading the posts you're arguing against?
Oh, that stuff about the Sages atoning? Three of them are out of jail, one still with Ghetsis. It was discarded.

The grammar seen in these posts makes me think that many of you are underage.

Gen 4 has the strongest Protag, due to them catching Pokemon Satan/Time God/Space God/Fucking Creator of all.

All other legendary pokemon are there bitches.

X/Y Protag is likely the second strongest, since they catch the creature that controls life or death.

Using this logic, in order of strength it would be:

Gen 4
Gen 6
Gen 3
Gen 5
Gen 2
Gen 1