how come smogon refuses to ban any entry hazards?

>>31312573
Because they're fair and balanced.

But Baton Pass isn't.

>>31312626
How is it fair when someone's side has sticky Web, 2-3 layers of spikes, 2-3 layers of toxic spikes, and stealth rocks?

If there were more moves like rapid spins would that get you anti-entry hazardfags to finally stfu

>>31312626
>fair and balanced.
>literally 100% usage on high rated teams

>>31312654
Git gud and use Defog/Rapid Spin

because defog and rapid spin exist

>>31312626
>>31312664
Because they punish the use of Volt Switch and U-Turn which are pretty fucking powerful.

>>31312664
>>31312654
I kinda implied I was being ironic with the Baton Pass comment.

Apparently you missed that.

>>31312661
Yes, don't we all love playing the reaction game.

It's easier and more reliable to suck it up, make a team that's not fucked by them and to simply use the damn hazards yourself.

>>31312672
but so do Haze, Psych Up, Topsy Turvy, Taunt,...

>>31312670
>>31312672
Are you one of those retards that pretend every team has every move available on them or are you just actually retarded?

>>31312677
> Volt Switch and U-Turn
Explain pre-Platinum gen 4. U-Turn spam wasn't a thing and Volt Switch didn't exist yet.

Suicide leads did their job if they prevented the opponent from setting up rocks while they managed to set up theirs.

Maybe it's time to admit that those hazards are fucking op.

>>31312715
It's hard to get through WITHOUT using defog or rapid spin

>>31312684
Hard to tell over the internet.

>>31312654
>2-3 layer of toxic spikes
Love how the casuals just out themselves immediately.

And if you've given them 6 free turns to set that all up, you might as well have given their Volcarona six free QDs or their Bidoof six turns of Defense Curl.

>>31312654
It takes seven turns to get all of that shit up in the first place.

>>31312715
>are you a retard, or are you just retarded?

>>31312732
It really isn't. Not that poster, btw.

>>31312573
Because without hazards battles would become endless switchfests and stall would become too powerful.

>>31312740
Well? Which is it anon?

>>31312654
You have to be pretty fucking bad to let that happen in the first place.

>>31312573
Punishes switches and helps HO teams get certain crucial KOs. Unless you want stall to be even stronger.

>>31312654
>You gave them 7 turns of set up.
You deserve to LOSE if you let this happen, Anon. That isn't acceptable ANYWHERE.
>He doesn't know T-Spikes is 2 layers, but he knows enough about hazards to know they are bad.

Cuz there are a million rapid spinners and defoggers?

>>31312715
>Makes an OU team without being able to counter known, present, old threat.
You wouldn't make a team that can't deal with a sweeper, you wouldn't make a team that can't beat Stall, you wouldn't make a team that can't play around Sand/Rain/TR.
Hazards, a threat in OU since literally the creation of Smogon? Nah, no reason to pack counterplay.

Smogon prefers hyper offense to stall, and since hazards are just annoying as opposed to obviously flawed, hazards won't be banned. Smogon only seems to ban obviously flawed offensive tactics, while things that are annoying tend to only get banned if they are stall heavy.


That's the reason, but they shouldn't be banned anyways. Not that much should be banned in any sense other then by usage, trying to turn the randomness of Pokemon into chess is just a recipe for failure and idiots being mad about said failure.

Because hazards aren't overpowered. Volcarona and Charizard are two of some of the best Pokemon in the game yet they're 4x weak to rocks and there are so many fucking ways to remove hazards with the Defog buff last gen and a bunch of new Pokemon getting Rapid Spin.

>>31313479
>Volcarona
>One of the best Pokemon in the game

That's hilariously wrong, but your point is valid. Charizard-X and formerly Talonflame are and were some of the best Pokemon in the game, even with stealth rock.

>>31312733
>Bidoof six turns of Defense Curl.

Love how the casuals just out themselves immediately

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>>31313639
>He doesn't recognize this is a joke
>Or maybe he does, internet sarcasm is hard.
At least he isn't BPing boosts, that would be actually bad.

>>31312719
Maybe it's because they also punish switching which is a fundamental mechanic and pretty powerful option as well? But I hardly need to justify my stance when you're pushing back the goalpost.

>>31313675
You're the one pushing back the goal post.

You've literally said it yourself:

>punish switching which is a fundamental mechanic

Low risk, high reward strategy that's safe to start and will never backfire on you. Yep, it's broken.

Smogontards tried banning Mega Sableye for a reason.

I'm not too fond of entry hazards either, but if you ban them, you'll only make the game Regenerator hell. If you want a picture of the future without entry hazards, imagine aTangrowth and Toxapex switching between each other - forever.

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>>31313800
>Tangrowth and Toxapex switching into each other forever
dear god how horrible

If Stealth Rocks applied them to the entire field then people would be more cautious about using such a powerful move.

It would be a justified nerf.

>>31313800
this guy gets it

>>31313768
>implying Sable was banned because of Magic Bounce, and not because was very hard to check and didn't make the game "can I check this sable set, or do I lose at preview"
This wasn't even that long ago anon. Try revisionist history with shit that didn't happen last year.
Imagine a universe consisting solely of double/triple switches and the occasional boost, no one ever attacking and Stall becoming even more dominant.
>>31313829
That's dumb. Then rocks wouldn't be on a rock weak team, which Stall and non-offensive teams generally aren't anyway. Nice buff to Stall. I swear, you guys have no idea what Rocks really do in practice.

>>31313860
/vp/ generally has no idea when it comes to competitive. If you see someone saying something about competitive it's pretty safe to always assume they have no clue what the fuck they're talking about it.

This goes both ways

>>31313596
>That's hilariously wrong

No it's not. Some of its common checks are gone, removing hazards is even easier now, and it hard counters most of the UBs people like to use.

>>31313768
>Because it was OP then it still OP now.
You moved the goal post. As several other have agreed with me on switching should be punished because it is a strong, often relatively safe option.

>>31313860
>implying Sable was banned because of Magic Bounce, and not because was very hard to check and didn't make the game "can I check this sable set, or do I lose at preview"

lol Smogonfag

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-oras-ou-suspect-process-round-7-diamonds.3585600/

Too bad that the thread isn't avaliable anymore. On the very opening post the main point in banning Sableye was Magic Bounce.

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>>31314397
Hazards are a necessary evil. Mega-sableye prevented them and bolstered stall too much.

>>31314397
You don't have an account? You can view it with an account. The general argument towards actually banning it was this.
"What Sableye does, in essence, is make the stall matchup a pre-decided battle. Without hazards and taunting, most creative methods of stallbreaking are disabled. This is why we see so many stall games decided turn 1, and the requirement for specific pokemon to be used to break stall. There is no strategizing and thought in stall breaking for the most part. You either have that one Crawdaunt/Heracross or you don't (these don't even singlehandedly beat stall)." -ABR
This is what I meant. The reason something is suspected isn't the reason something is actually decided to be banned. It made Stall essentially an entirely matchup-based fight in ORAS, which is why they voted to ban it.
Not going to say Magic Bounce wasn't a part of it, but to say that's the whole reason is just being dumb.

>>31312697
>It's easier to be a part of the problem rather than want the problem to be solved.
People like you are the real mistakes in the world.

>>31314639
>>31314623
>This mon stalls too hard
>It counters my usual stall sets too easily
I can't take Smogon suspect ladders seriously when they won't even bother suspecting SR to the point of making regulars to the forums not even bother to fight for it anymore.

>Well SR is something that we should probably suspect
>No you dipshit that's the crux of half the admins' best teams. Let's put it in a "suspect ladder" and pretend we're gonna do something about it, but shut it down long before we could have any real data and just go "HEY NEW TOY SYNDROME DOESN'T EXIST THIS IS THE CANCER META YOU'D HAVE WITHOUT STEALTH ROCKS".

The necessary evil argument is retarded, because it takes power away from the people making it.

>>31314683
>there are people still think SR is even suspect.worthy

Are you still stuck on Gen 4, or are you running a mono Bug/Flying team?

>>31314683
Because there isn't actually anything wrong with rocks. This isn't gen 4 anymore boss, everyone has moved on.

>>31312573
The only thing that should be banned is the sneaky stones. Not because it's annoying but because it favors the use of some pokemon over others. No one will neglige a non flying-mon because of spikes, but they might not use Volcarona because of the stones, meanwhile Excadrill just laughs because it happens to have an advantage over rock

>>31314735
>ban sneaky stones
>every single flyer/levitator ever gets a huge boost because they don't get affected by entry hazards anymore
>meanwhile ground peasants have to suffer through spikes, t-spikes, and spider web

Sounds balanced alright. Also, if you want to use something weak to rocks, just add a spinner/defogger. Fucking hell, that's basic teambuilding

>>31314735
What? People are explicitly using Volcarona in spite of Malicious Malachite because removing hazards before sending in a sweeper isn't that difficult if you built your team with the knowledge that Conniving Concrete hits 4x on an important win condition, and you pack hazard removal like a sensible person. Plus Excadrill is probably helping Volcarona come in by getting rid of Deceptive Dolomite on it's side by using Rapid Spin, one of it's primary selling points on a non-sand team.

>>31314735
Stealth Rocks shit on Fire, Ice and Flying types which are great Offensive STAB typings to have. Bug doesn't like them either but Bug is pretty okay offensively too. Seems like a decent trade off to me imo.

OP, watch a fourway free for all without hazards, see how much they just sit there, protect to scout moves then switch.

Do you want that to be the new accepted strat? I don't like them either, but that's why you build around such things.

>>31314735
Stealth Rocks really needs to have its distribution cut down to only certain Pokémon. Hell, maybe even make it entirely exclusive to Rock-types.

Smogon is a shit.
Fuck them and their shitty ass meta, but fuck those that give them legitimacy even more

Its funny how idiots say that smogon is shit for supporting stall too much and smogon is shit for supporting stealth rock.
Its like they dont know anything at all about the game.
Oh, wait

>smogoncucks defending their shit meta
Absolutely disgusting.

>>31312573
>People actually want Stall to be buffed.

Imagine a world without Stealth Rock and where Stallfags can switch out their Pokemon with little consequence.

>>31317332
This just in: people who don't play Smogon formats have no idea how it feels to play a Smogon format and what makes them actually work.

>>31312719
gen4 didn't have team preview, so you had to play safe. This involved lots of switching, so hazards punish that. When team preview came out in gen5, VoltTurn replaced scouting.

>>31313814
Underrated post.

>>31314818
Bug is trash offensively. It's better defensively.

>>31318259
In a world without rocks stall would probably be worse, one the main ways stall gets damage is through rocks.
also
>Letting your opponent get rocks up vs mega sableye

>>31312573
Stealth Rock is the only thing that needs to go, but removing it would change the current meta way too much and smogon is too autistic for change.

What actually needs to happen is SR being nerfed. Instead of percent damage based on type (fuck anything that reduces gameplay to rock-paper-scissors typematch), it should just be a normal BP 50 attack, with weaknesses and resistances modifying damage. Chopping off 50% HP on a switch in is way too much.

>>31318636
That accelerates the match. In reality, without rocks, the match would just take 2-3 times longer

>>31318636
Here's my secret anon.
Rocks on Lum Bisharp, no Sucker Punch, lead it vs Sable. The worstest possible set, except for dicking on Stall in challenges.
>>31318659
Tell me how nerfing/removing Rocks would actually make the meta better. Also that nerf idea is fucking dumb, people would just boost up and then Rocks, pretty much every offensive Rock setter has high attack and an SD set, and you just merged them together.

>>31318659
>normal 50 BP attack
Nigga do you realize how retarded that sounded, without mentioned if its special or physical and what the stats the pokemon performing the 50 BP attack is, a 50 BP physical attack from chansey is a lot different from a 50 BP special attack from mega rayquaza.

>>31318722
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega: 105-124 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 87-103 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO
Nigga that set doesn't even work unless you get lucky with flinches

>>31312573
They think defog and rapid spin balances it out
>meanwhile evasion is still banned despite the game being loaded with always-hit moves and other counters to evasion

>>31318757
smogon hates rng, good luck killing a max evasion chansey

>>31318754
Lum with SD, Rocks, Iron Head, Knock Off. It's a garbage heat set vs anything other than stall, never use on the ladder, only for the suprise.

>>31318770
>smogon hates rng
Then they should ban
>crits
>moves with sub-100 accuracy
>moves with a 10-30% chance to burn/poison/etc.

>>31318786
>anti-Smogonfags actually believe this.

>>31318722
Because chopping off 50% of a pokemon's HP on switch in is way too much. The exact numbers for that 'nerf' were irrelevant, the point being made was that SR shouldn't be doing % based damage. Of course, if such a change would give SR sets a reason to do something other than just setting up SR, such as pretending to be a sweeper or bulky sweeper that gives up a coverage move for switch-in damage, that'd be an improvement on its own.

SR is too strong. There are perfectly valid pokemon I can't use if SR is on the field, and I have to spend time removing it if I want to use them anyways. This gives my opponent free turns while I spend a minimum of two undoing an effect that took one to set up, unless I choose from a narrow selection of pokemon with rock resistance. It's far more advantageous to use something that isn't weak to rock than to use something that is, regardless of how powerful it may be in theory.

I don't want the game to be just type matchups and using the mons everyone else is using. Is that really so bad?

>>31318757
>always-hit moves
Boy I sure love packing 60 BP moves to not kill any evasion users

>>31318804
its literal rng.

>>31318786
They don't ban these things because they don't modify game mechanics.

Evasion is not a competitive strategy and adds a completely unnecessary layer of RNG to a game that's already quite RNG heavy. The options for preparing for it are very few, while absolutely everything gets Double Team and a wide variety of pokemon get Minimize as well.

Absolutely no smogonfag pretends pokemon isn't really luck based, but Evasion, OHKO moves, and gen 6 swagplay were just another layer of luck that make pokemon even less competitive than it already is.

>>31313318
>>31312762
But stall is the greatest beneficiary and most prominent use of entry hazards.

>>31318857
That YOU choose to use for slightly more/less power. You aren't forcing the other player to roll increasingly small odds to see the effect of their own attack.
That's why some things opt for big, dumb inaccurate attacks like Hydro Pump, a move that has a possible beneficial effect at the cost of some damage like Scald, or a middle ground between the two with flawless accuracy, like Surf.
Evasion takes skillful playing away from the other player, clicking a 70% accuracy move means you are deliberately opening yourself up to bust your neck and do nothing 30% of the time.

>Levitate now ignores stealth rocks
Did i fix it?

>>31319674
The entire reason SR was made was because flying types and levitaters were immune to spikes.

GSC is a meta without rocks and only spikes. It's a fucking shitty stallfest and the matches depend on how much layers of spikes your Forretress can setup before dying and how well you can spinblock the opponent efforts to Rapid Spin them to actually punish them for switching in. It's a borefest.

>>31314713
>>31314704
> to the point of making regulars to the forums not even bother to fight for it anymore.

Apparently there's a lot of cucks who gave up too.

Showdown is monopolized by Smogon, you can give up if you want to try anything different like we did in Pokemon Online or Shoddy.

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>>31317243
>Infernape learns Stealth Rock

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>>31320164
>layers of spikes your Forretress can setup
>LAYERS OF SPIKES
>GSC

>>31312573
>Landorus used U turn
>Rotom used Volt Switch
Imagine what a cancerous shithole OU would be (well, it already is, but it would be even moreso) if entry hazards weren't allowed to keep that shit in check.

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>>31318539
>bug is better defensively

>>31318539
Anything weak to fire, flying or rock is instafucked due to how common those types are offensively
And Bug is weak to all three of these, I'd even argue that Bug is the second worst defensive type in the game, beaten only by ice which has even WORSE weaknesses and no resistances

>>31320516
>>31320577
He didn't say it was good, he said it was better. And he's right.

>>31320439
yeah, I forgot that you could only setup one layer, but even then, the only mons that can reliably set them up (Forretress and Cloyster) go out of their way to include them on their toolkit and somehow punish switches.

>just use Rapid Spin/defog lol

then what's the point of use hazards if they are going to be removed anyways? its just a waste of moveslots and turns for both players

>>31320577
>What is Bug/Steel

>>31320767
it's not a waste because unless you can safely bring your rapid spinner/defogger all the switches until that point are punished, and in the case of Rapid Spin, the spinner own switch and the next one are punished if you switch to your ghost type

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>>31320767
...That's playing the game. That's making plays. That's like saying "why bother playing the first 10 moves in Chess? It's going to come down to a Rook vs a Knight anyway".

There's like two people in this thread who actually know what they're talking about

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>>31320846
This.

>>31320630
I disagree because bug being SE on Psychic and Dark makes it pretty useful offensively and covering grass isn't too bad either, meanwhile defensively its resistances aren't nearly enough to balances its weaknesses

Learn to love them. They aren't going anywhere.

Is evasion still banned?

Did they Atleast allow you to use evasion abilities like weather

>>31321001
Garchomp was uber because of sand veil lol

>>31320856

I want all 3 forms to have futa cocks and force me to suck it

>>31320768
4x weak to fire.
Nobody uses Escavalier

>>31321011

It was uber in gen 4 due to lacking counters.

>>31320767
>why should I jump in if anti-airs exist?

>>31321036
>nobody uses scizor

>>31321036
(Mega) Scizor..?

>>31321011
it was uber because it was powerful as fuck and on top of it, with infinite sand support you could hold something like Bright Powder and make your opponent's otherwise 100% accuracy moves fail as much as Focus Miss.

You used Substitute until one attack missed and you could freely use Swords Dance, this allowed Garchomp to setup on Pokemon that would otherwise setup or check him forcing you to run a fast ice attacker (Weavile or Mamoswine with Choice Band) that could only check Garchomp, OR use your own Dragon type mon with a choice scarf to revenge kill it. It overcentralized the meta and was fucking stupid, the sand veil shit was only the cherry on top on of the shit cake.

>>31321036

>x4 weak means it's bad

>>31321071
>>31321089
Sure but Scizor is used for his offensive presence.

>>31321188

Foretress

>>31321225
Aight, got me there. I forgot he exists since Ferrothorn nudged him out of usefulness.

>>31321304

It depends on what they do

Escalvier being a defensive attacker doesn't work with his weakness

>>31312654
Why would you ever allow someone to set up that much shit? Clearly you suck as a trainer.

SR should just be capped at a 1/6 damage maximum. 50% being the maximum is obscene.

I feel like the people who consistently bitch about Devious Dirt don't actually play the games or don't know how to build a team properly.

Do you guys remember Gen 2 when entry hazards were first introduced? They were ultra-common and made whoever got them OU.

That's just the nature of the beast. Good attacks are commonly used. SR has good distribution, several counters, and isn't nearly as necessary to a team as you guys think.

Easy bait

How do I get started with Showdown? I don't even know how to build a rudimentary team. All this vocabulary confuses me and I don't know how to predict movesets well. I don't want to make a complete fool of myself.

>>31320846
I bet those two people just happens to have an opinion that's similar to yours.

>>31321455
Smogon can't do that and Gamefreak doesn't care since they're not an issue in doubles.

>>31321188
But the most used set is the defensive mega.

>>31321551
Just play random battles

You'll get destoyed at first but that's inevitable in any competitive game

>>31321575
Oh I know anon, I know.

But god knows they have no issue nerfing other things into the ground. Hell, they nerfed Prankster after one generation.

>>31321551
>How do I get started with Showdown?
Just pick 6 OU pokemon and use them. Do a lot of battles and you'll learn how the game works and how to team build eventually.
>I don't want to make a complete fool of myself.
Since you are new to battling, you'll only be battling against other new players, children, and karenfags because you are low on the ladder.

>>31321596
I'm not up to date but I assume it's a SD/Roost/Burrito/BugBite set. I'd generally consider a bulky set up sweeper offensive in nature. Not gonna argue that Scizor isn't bulky but his main selling point it Tech STAB burritos. Even if he did have worse defensive stats I think he'd still see some use for this reason. That and his general cool factor.

>>31321774
I see them use Uturn a lot for pivoting much more than bug bite.

>>31321774
It's SD/Roost/Bullet/U-Turn. It's kinda suffering because Lele exists but it's not purely offensive. It takes hits from stuff like Metagross but doesn't really set up SD until later on.

>>31321551
You really just gotta play. Competitive Pokemon is a lot like fighting games in that in order to really start playing you need to know what your opponent is capable of. Thankfully you don't have the control barrier to work through. Probably the most import thing is having a generalized idea of speed tiers.

nobody gives a shit about toxic spikes or sticky web