Smogon

>>31309172
its mostly because people make assumptions based off of low-ladder, and lies by Verlis and the like.

a lot of peolle dont even know that Smogon is more diverse than VGC (according to literal percentages)

>>31309172
Unskilled people have a hateboner for stall.

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>>31309172
>OU is a fair and balanced meta filled with all sorts of Pokemon.

>>31309692
Compared to VGC? Well yeah

>>31309692
It is though. Stall is fine. Only baddies and VGC players who have never pierced 1400 think Stall is actually inherently a bad thing that should actually be removed.

>>31309376
It doesn't help that people often dislike wallbreakers because they either come late in the game, aren't easy to optimize or breed pre gen 6, and people are too much of autist to not run Timid, Jolly, Modest or Adamant.

Naturally when it comes to PVP these Pokémon aren't fanfavorites and thus aren't used at all by the lowest common denominator.

>>31309172
It's only used to try to talk shit about smogon. Funny enough the same idiots cry about them banning baton pass, when a team dedicated to it is worse than a stall team.

>>31309172

retards under 1700 elo don't know what taunt is

/thread

>>31309172
>OU
>fair and balanced
>variety of pokemon

Pokemon tiers are like sexual economy. The top tier is tiny, with shit supply and oversaturated demand, while the remaining tiers suffer because of this demand and the obsession with who is in the top tier. And, those who are involved with the top tier are not actually happy, but they constantly show off to everyone else. Whereas the upper-middle tier is probably the most satisfying, but it still gets ignored, while the remaining tiers are completely fucked.

Just a reminder that there are two S rank OU pokemon and the A+ rank is completely dominated by one type. Just like chad could steal your girl at any time.

>>31310510
What type is dominating A+?

>>31310556
steel

>>31310556
Steel, pretty much because Top Lel is THAT busted.

People dislike stall because it's super fucking boring to play against, and most games are over in 20 turns, stall games regularly go 50+ turns.
People think smogon likes stall because nine times out of ten the pokemon that are suspected are wall breakers and almost never super defensive mons that help stall.

Except UU, UU is a fucking stall fest and the leader of it actively bans things that break stall.

>>31310510
>Just a reminder that there are two S rank OU pokemon
How is that a bad thing?
>>31310593
No, steel is just an absurd type all around.

>>31310593
Are you sure?
Celestia can do almost anything it wants.
Heatran has been top tier for 4 generations now.
Magaerana has good bulk and is really easy to sweep with late game
Mega metagross has good bulk and is really easy to sweep with late game

I don't think any of them are there solely because of top lel

>>31309172
stall is a tactic that is literally dependent on making your opponent surrender. This type of playstyle is associated with "No fun allowed" and as such Smogons policy of rules is equivalent to "no fun allowed"

>>31310917
>stall is a tactic that is literally dependent on making your opponent surrender
No.
>This type of playstyle is associated with "No fun allowed" and as such Smogons policy of rules is equivalent to "no fun allowed"
Competitive isn't supposed to be built around "fun".

>>31310776
>how is that a bad thing
Because it destroys the tier economy? Why would you make a team without one of those two pokemon if they're clearly the most dominant two in the entire meta? You have 800 pokemon to pick from, but every battle is going to be against one or both of them? How is that anymore entertaining than playing treadmill with a cave full of zubats?

Steel was always hilariously overpowered for defense, but then they managed to fuck things up even more by making it extremely useful offensively. Steel is probably the top type in the entire game, with fairy in second.

>>31310942
Then why was funbro banned? It took stall to the extreme and was deemed too unfun.

>>31310983
Same reason why Republicans constantly try to ban gay everything while they and their religious leaders constantly suck the dicks of twinks and little boys I guess: because Smogon is run by repressed closeted faggots

>>31309172
Dude do you mean the current meta?
It's very young, some thing will get banned the next weeks.
Maybe stall will become less prevalent than last gen, but gen 6 was pretty stally especially higher on the ladder.

>>31310983
It wasn't deemed "unfun", it just made battles LITERALLY NEVER END UNTIL SOMEONE FORFEITED. In fact, all strategies that can lead to an endless battle are banned.

Real answer OP: Smogon tries to keep every playstyle viable and due to the incredibly offensive centered nature of the game right now Stall is barely viable since one can run stupidly strong wallbreakers without any real downsides. This in turn makes it so Smogon bans these destructive wallbreakers that shit on stall or power crept sweepers that centralize offense and they barely ban defensive threats since they are usually easier to beat.

It's easier to switch something that beats a wall in than to switch something that beats a wallbreaker in.

>>31309172
The bigger question is why do people think smogon wants to force their meta down their throats and hates your favorite bromon

>>31310264
>compared to the Soviet Union, communist Cuba is pretty nice

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>>31310995

>>31310995
Quality post.

Is Pelipper better than politoed for rain?

>>31311131
yes

>>31309172
It's because often times when they ban something lazy people say "it's broken because it's breaks stall." While the argument has merits, i.e. a team that literally all have high hp stats, good abilities/resistances can single handedly lose to one poke its probably a problem.

The thing is though at the end of day it is a lazy argument because it doesn't all it really tells us is stall is too passive. Ultimately the reason the meme persists tho is because if a mon breaks stall, its banned. if a mon breaks balance, its suspect, and if a mon breaks offense, lol stop crying.

>>31310723
>the leader of it actively bans things that break stall.

Proof?

>>31311528
His ass. UU (specifically gen6 UU) was far from a stall-fest and the only person who used stall in the high ladder was hjkhj and even then UU stall is infinitely more manageable than OU stall.

>>31311528
Literally everything that could wall break in UU was banned.
The tier is riddled with bulky water types.
There was a UU ladder with no scald for a while and it was genuinely better but it wasn't fun at all.
kokoloko is a massive faggot as well.

>>31311686
>Literally everything that could wall break in UU was banned.
Not Hydreigon, not Crawdaunt, not Krook,
>The tier is riddled with bulky water types.
Who are easily dealt with by the myriad of water Absorbers in the tier and a lot of these bulky waters aren't stall oriented.

in gen 5 people said the same things about hyper offense. almost everything negative said about smogon on here is posted by trolls, low ELO shitters that don't understand why things are done the way they are done, or people that don't play Pokemon competitively and are jumping on the smogon hate bandwagon.

there is some constructive criticism about smogon posted here sometimes, but generally speaking almost anything negative about smogon posted on here should be assumed to be bait and ignored. if someone has legitimate criticism of smogon they'd probably post it on the smogon forums.

>>31310510

this analogy is bad because smogon tiers don't operate like sexual selection or like capitalist economies

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>>31309172
>OU is a fair and balanced meta filled with all sorts of Pokemon.
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA

>>31311041
a roomba with a built in camera

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>>31311853
that picture is good supporting evidence for OP's argument! Thanks anon!

>>31309376
Everyone hates stall. Stall players hate playing stall

>>31309172
I believe it's because it was rampant on gen 6 since they would ban anything that could threaten stall. It doesn't seem that bad this gen so far though

>>31311853
Now post viability, that's a huge factor, non OU stuff with actual usage in OU is the real factor.

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>>31312019
>Barely any ice types
>That many pokemon out of 800+
>Supporting evidence.
You could at least click on the image before shitposting.

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>>31312044
>everyone plays competitive game
>everyone hates competitive strategy

Sorry, I don't believe you.

>>31311041
nice implying. I'm secure in my bisexuality. And my comfort with my faggotry makes me well-versed in understanding when other people are being faggots. And smogon is gay as fuck.

>>31311849
actually they do. Just as people may pick multiple sexual partners and are restricted only by time and the amount of their life they're willing to dedicate to one or more partners, so are pokemon tiers based on how much they're willing to dedicate themselves to pokemon partners.

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>>31312377
This is the most recent one

>>31312428
>Barely any ice types
Maybe if there were ice types worth using beyond four there would be more in OU
>only 50 out of 800
It's math, nigger, you're never gonna have a hundred or more pokemon have more than 3.41% usage unless everyone goes out of their way to be a special snowflake and not use what other people are using.

>>31311853 also doesn't show the roughly 50-60 viable pokemon who linger below 3.41% usage.

>>31312503
You are really, really stretching this analogy.

>>31312428
Enjoy your one ice type in VGC.

>>31312528
>>31312597
And you two call OU balanced. And no, I don't like VGC either. There's not enough pokemon in OU.

>>31312610
Are the 120 pokemon that are viable in OU not enough for you?
>>31312512

>>31312528
no, I'm really not.

I've made my point, now the onus is on you to make a counter-argument: how is the process of selecting and spending time with a pokemon economically different from selecting and spending time with a sexual partner?

>>31312512
>Omastar
Is shell smash really that good on him? Does my favorite fossil stand a chance?

>>31312802
Rain is really good right now and it has swift swim.

>>31312780
They're the same on an incredibly basic level (selecting something) but I don't know why you're pushing this thought or why you think it's worth discussing.

>>31312844
I'm not the one who made it into a discussion broseph stalin, I just made the comparison and you told me "no that's wrong because I don't like it." Now that I've given you reasons why, you continue to deny it like a fucking child, and now you're trying to act smug about it, as if you were somehow beyond an idea that you're too dumb to understand in reality.

The pokemon meta sucks just like getting laid irl sucks.

>>31312900
This is really unique and interesting bait so I'm just gonna give you a (You) for the creativity. Yes, usage tiers are exactly like a sexual economy.

>>31311034
>smogon bans destructive things

Then what's with stealth rocks? It completely dominates the metagame. Practically mandatory on every team. Makes a lot of pokemon completely unplayable.

Then they turn around and ban anything that could possibly threaten the smogonrocks meta. It's top-tier faggotry.

Honestly, it might be better if stealth rocks were changed mechanically, somehow. Like, limiting the number of targets it hits, or making it deal typeless damage, like spikes. Then they wouldn't be able to abuse this faggotry in the first place.

>>31313013
I can't think of any non-shitmon who would be immensely better without rocks aside from Volcarona.

>>31309172
Generally just a point anti smogon people bring up in argument
>muh stall
>Muh haunter pedo

>>31311131
Pelipper can actually tank a lot of physical damage and STAB Hurricane is useful. It won't be a star player or anything, but it's not dead weight

>>31313013
>rocks make certain Pokemon unviable
Ignoring the obvious counter argument that Award and Volc, two 4x rock weak mons, are amazing, what specific non-shitmon is murdered by rocks?
>banning things that prevent a strong based game
Like? That's not why M-Sable got banned at the end of ORAS by the way, in case you were going to say that, and he's back again anyway.

>>31313059
*strong hazard based

>>31313013
>Makes a lot of pokemon completely unplayable.
No, Volcarona, A-Marowak, and Charizard are viable despite a rock weakness. Banning rocks won't make Butterfree OU. The only thing a stealthrock ban would do is create longer matches and make stall more powerful.

>>31313069
>>31313059
*zard, fucking auto correct on my phone jesus christ

>>31312802
Swift Swim, you can thank Pelipper for bringing rain back.

>>31313013
Stealth Rocks is nearly non-existent and metas that attempted to evolve without it just left Pokemon who's main niche was rock setting (Like Forretress or certain sets of tanky mons with limited movepools) or rocks removal (like Flygon and Claydol) with no position in the meta, and the top-tier mons were just as good as they were without rocks. If Genesect and Talonflame can consistently U-Turn and not be overly threatened by SR, then theyre really a non-issue other than turning 2HKOs into a 25% chance to OHKO or turning a 3HKO into 2HKO

Rather than being a stall-oriented move, it actually helps wear out stalls and contributes more to Hyper Offense teams when facing Stall.
The problem is when Landorus-T can be used to:
Set rocks
Remove rocks
As a hazard immune, rock resist
Tank to support stall
Wallbreaker to counter stall
Offensive Pivot
Suicide Lead

And pretty much everything else you can think of.

>>31313013
>Makes a lot of pokemon completely unplayable
Literally the only pokemon that would become viable if SR was banned is Moltres. Maybe, MAYBE yanmega. That's it.

If Smogon didn't love stall Hoopa would never have been banned.

Its not an issue vs offense.

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>>31313202
>not banning Literally Ugly As Sin: Arabian Nights Edition
>Letting this into OU ever

>>31313230
>>>>>>>>>inb4 Kyurem-B
>inb4 actually suggesting the ice type with 170/120 offenses is comparable to the Dark type with 160/170 offenses
>inb4 implying because a Pokemon with no movepool at all sucks ass that a Pokemon with 80/130 bulk and a movepool to abuse its literally god tier offenses and a signature move that doesnt require a Charge Up turn is just biased against

>>31313152
That's another unrelated thing people don't understand though, the part about Lando. Lando has so much usage because it has like 9 different, viable sets that all aren't broken and are most of them can be scouted. That's why no one actually cares about its high usage. Lele on the other hand is almost entirely 1 set (scarf), with the other sets being run just to catch people trying to check Scarf because you can't tell until it hits you for 90%.
>>31313202
And the ban wasn't about offense. Hoopa was too strong for ORAS OU Stall teams, period. It would have killed them out entirely, which is bad. They don't keep things that invalidate whole playstyles, but most of the things that fuck offensive teams are old and banned already, or new and soon to be banned, like Lele and Ash-Gren.

Stall certainly can be about strategy but I think a lot of people are missing the point.

>stall is insanely boring and offers next to no gratification because attrition is a miserable way to conduct any competition

>>31313258
>offers next to no gratification
Beating a stall team is one of the greatest feelings. Especially if you can pull it off in under 20 turns.

>>31313321
matter of opinion I guess. unless I'm really wanting to battle I don't even bother putting against stall teams anymore

>>31313343
If you still want to fuck Stall in gen 6, use this. Still puts in work as a Stallfucker.
broads in atlanta (Pangoro) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Superpower
- Poison Jab
- Fire Punch
- Knock Off

>>31313366
think that cool guy will be viable this gen? I love pangoro btw

>post bank if that ever happens

>>31313394
It's probably less viable than it was last gen.

There's dozens of low-tier but insanely strong things that stall doesn't have an answer for, but doesn't care because they're death fodder against most good teams.

>>31313013
My original post didn't say destructive things just really hard hitting wallbreakers and offensive threats so damn good every offense team should carry them killing all team building versatility. Please learn to read.
Also rocks are good for the meta game, even as a person whose favorite Pokemon is Volcarona I know damn well that the moment you remove rocks from the game, games turn into eternal switch fests between bulky Pokemon like Gen 3's meta.

>>31313488
Volcarona would probably be beyond broken without rocks. It's already one of the best sweepers in OU.

>>31313498
Volcarona gets walled by a ton of really common things. My Volc centered teams normally keep rocks off the field 90% of the time and even after that I have to break through Chansey, Heatran, physical Water types, Latis, Garchomp, Thundurus, Stone Edge users in general and now we have Toxapex and Ash Greninja which all can easily end a sweep.

>>31313498
Nah volcarona is fine,its needs hidden power to not be walled by certain pokemon
Heatran volcanion primarina tapu fini azumarill Tentacruel list goes on

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>>31313488
>>31313498
I just stopped playing singles and entry hazards stopped dominating my teams

>or get yourself a handy whimsicott and taunt all sneaky stone users

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>>31313590
>throwing Deceptive Dolomite on a Prankster-Taunt mon

>>31313576
>primarina tapu fini azumarill
What is Giga Drain

>>31313630
>none of which are faster than full investment timid cloud sheep

>>31313689
The point is nobody should be trying to use SR in front of it they should be attacking.

>>31313655
Sap sipper Azumarill :^)
Im kidding i just legitimately forgot ot got giga drain

>>31313689
What I meant by that was:
>Garchomp used Fire Fang
>Landorus used U-Turn

>>31313744
sash whimsicott and those two turns of set up (tailwind) could still be worth the faint

>>31313557
>>31313576
You know nothing.

In the current meta volc's only good stops are Chansey and Mantine (toxapex kind of sort of handles it but can potentially lose 1v1 after like 50 turns if it has tspikes over toxic.) Ash-Greninja can't even reliably revenge kill if volc is healthy (and only if it has already digivolved, which it won't be because very volc is partnered with Tapu Fini.)

Volc's best set is Fire Blast/Giga Drain/HP Ground @ Firium-Z. It's insanely good and very difficult to stop. Most of the stuff that troubles it (T-tar, Azumarill) has pretty low usage right now, and Z-Fire Blast absolutely nukes a lot of things that could hope to check it.

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados: 231-273 (69.7 - 82.4%)

That is a resisted hit from 95/100 bulk, and it can KO after rocks. Mega takes max 68%, that's rocks and a bit of prior damage.

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 265-312 (74.2 - 87.3%)

Huge damage here as well.

In a late-game scenario where most of your opponent's team has taken some sort of damage (80% health is seriously not unreasonable,) Volcarona can nuke the one thing that can hope to check it and sweep the rest of the team.

No really, just look at >>31311853 and tell me what OU mons are actually good stops to it (good as in can beat it without being super healthy.)
>mega pinsir, ash ninja (rk only)
>chansey, mantine, ttar, scarf nihilego (hard stops)
>toxapex (toss up)
>kingdra

That's really kind of it.

>>31313804
*kingdra in rain. I guess exca in sand too but that also means a ttar most likely (both lose if Volc is +2, same with scarf nihilego, but a couple other scarfers over base 100 also count if it's only +1.)

>>31313804
>it but can potentially lose 1v1 after like 50 turns if it has tspikes over toxic
Your Volc loses to Scald's chip damage since it has no lefties or roost too and Toxapex can haze as much as it wants.
I never thought about using Z-moves on it though, I guess I'll try it out.

>>31313013
Dude, SR are the best tool to fuck with stall. Offense loves rocks, stall hates them so hard they sometimes run two hazard removers to fully be successful.

Man, SR actually help to make this game playable when you sit and think it for two minutes instead of being a faggot only thinking of types instead of role compression.

>>31313013
SR is pure cancer.