>Dude Stealth Rock LMAO *Bans Swagger*

>>31210994
>smogon

It's just a glorified pedo club. Don't worry about them.

>>31211008
I actually dont mind Smogon, i just play the game the way it was intended to play
I want to see the salt

Is Stealth Rock a fantastic move? Yes. But in no way is it uncompetitive, broken, or unhealthy based on the definitions clearly laid out in the framework. The existence of stealth rock does not make the more skillful play irrelevant, it simply alters the framework in which those decisions have to be made.

Uncompetitive - The player choice is still paramount to his victory, it just has to be made with the knowledge that Stealth Rock is up (or not for that matter) and is a part of what must be considered for the decision.

Broken - We can concede that stealth rock racks up a lot of damage throughout the battle (more or less depending on the inclusion of SR weak Pokemon). But this damage does not render the more skillful play irrelevant, if anything it makes the more skillful play even more impactful. Agressively doubling into an advantageous matchup can force the opponent to switch, punishing them for getting out-predicted.

Unhealthy - "This is the most controversial and subjective one, and will therefore be used the most sparingly. The OU Council will only use this amidst drastic community outcry and a conviction that the move will noticeably result in the better player winning over the lesser player." Unless you can honestly argue that you feel that SR results in the less skilled player winning when they shouldn't the point is moot in my opinion.

Stealth Rock restricts team building to some extent, but no more than considerations like status absorbers, the necessity to be able to break stall, or the ability to deal with individual threats. SR just feels like the scapegoat people are pointing at for why certain Pokemon aren't viable when there are plenty of SR weak Pokemon that are thriving. And to be honest, There are going to be good and bad Pokemon regardless of the existence of Stealth Rock. Unless you honestly believe that taking Stealth Rock out of the game will make the game more skill dependent, this discussion isn't worth having.

>>31211052
There we go

>>31211052
please tell me this is some old pasta and that you didn't actually bother writing this.

>Use stealthrock in showdown doubles
>Opponents lose their shit
>climb to 1500 elo on new accounts daily
Why the fuck do doublesfags never see it coming.

>>31211116
because while still usable it isn't meta defining. Like TR in singles.

Why does no one bring spinners or defoggers

>>31211251
Because then we can't complain about stealth rock

Zard and Volcarona are still viable despite 4x rocks weakness

>>31211251
Because any savvy player would have Bisharp or a Ghost switch-in on their team

>>31211274
Yeah but a savvy player would predict that switch in and nuke the spin blocker which will allow for a spin latter

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>Dude muh official formal LMAO
*Copies and pastes sets to inject from Smogon*

>>31211116

>battle with noobs
>brag about winning with stealth rock in doubles

Wow, you are so skilled, teach me your ways

>>31211116
Im gonna have to try that, i only run meme sets on doubles
>>31211297
#SALT

>>31211295
a savvy player would know when a opponent would nuke or set, and switch accordingly to a tank or ghost/defiant pokemon

>>31211350
yeah but a savvy player would see that coming and switch to an appropriate counter

>>31211297

Literally nobody does that in VGC except for retards. You are never gonna win using smogon sets in VGC:

>>31211371
Smogon is not just singles you know, a good amount of competitive doubles analysis come from them also i remember when they used to help players hack their pokemon during gen 5

>>31211096

It's from http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/can-we-talk-about-stealth-rock.3585730/

Unfortunately, someone claimed there was an actual conspiracy against banning SR and they killed the thread.

>>31211008
its the most popular format tho

>>31211342
>#salt

>>31211371
I think he's referring to how the smogdex has a lot of VGC sets

>>31211116
Because stealth rock is not as good in doubles.

>>31211052
It literally changes tiers depending on type, making Fire less prevalent and Steel more prevalent.

>>31211359
>>31211350
>>31211295
>>31211274
>>31211251
it's not meta defining though

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>>31211052
This post made me so angry. Smogon defends this don't they?

>>31212953
t. Articuno cuck buttblasted that his frozen chicken isn't viable.

Can you actually refute a single one of the points made in that post?

I only hate smogon because its stupid

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>>31210994
You know, only issue is that punishes some types (That don't deserve it, like bug or ice) more than others. What we need is more counter moves and abilities. Also a buff to Rapid Spinn

>still hasn't moved Greninja-A to ubers
>1 shots your entire team
>priorities whatever it cant outspeed to death

FUCK THIS POKEMON

If they just introduced a new hazard control move that was as spammable as toxic then I'd have absolutely no problems aside from SR's damage calculations being changed from super effective to neutral.

>>31213066

>If they just introduced a new hazard control move that was as spammable as toxic

You mean toxic spikes? No, that shit is already gay as fuck in the current meta. It's almost all poison control anyway.

>>31213032
Bug is amazing, Ice is defensively shit on purpose.

>>31213084
what the fuck are you talking about? Toxic spikes is not defog.

>>31213096

I thought you were talking about hazards to use. I just woke up, sorry.

>>31213066
They did try that with Defog but the distribution isn't that great. If only there was a region that had some kind of low cloud you could use Defog on to remove.

The ONLY problem with Stealth Rock is it being typed damage.
Remove that and it becomes fine.
But it's never used in doubles or Battle Spot Singles so gamefreak doesn't give a shit

>>31213421
Someone mentioned doing more damage to fliers and levitators and I thought that was interesting. Flying types get off for free too much when it comes to hazards.

>>31213421
The idea was to hit the fliers immune to spikes, maybe switch rocks to a layer system that deals higher damage to flying types and Pokemon with Levitate.

>>31213250
Yes, a region where it was part of some sort of 4th gen setting.

>>31213463
A region which would allow you to easily teach Pokemon this hazard removing move.

>>31213489
Indeed, in a region where it would make sense to use such a move.

>>31213503
a region with a colder weather, to justify fogs as a reason to give you this move in, say, a TM

>>31213489
>remake of gen 4
>stick with no HMs
>defog isn't even a TM
>stealth rock is again
place your bets.

>>31213033
It has shitty stats until it actually kills something. How is it even OU?

>>31213508
you mean HM

>>31213421
But that's the entire point of rocks. No one actually gives a shit about just airborne mons. Everyone would just Spike instead. If you know your team is fucked by rocks coming up, you should pack hazard control.

>>31213523
But what kind of Gen VII game would use HMs, quit living in the past.

>>31213560
the same gen that would introduce some sort of rock climbing hm shenanigans

>>31213523
HMs are dead, a TM with effects on the overworld like flash still exists

>>31213033
>Stick 5 sweepers and a wallbreaker in team
>Complain that the fastest and hardest sweeper in the game beats me
Get a defensive core

>>31213572
Not in gen VII

>>31213521
It's pretty much the best cleaner of all time. It's not going to come in and get a kill at the start, but its easy to force a situation where a kill is guaranteed at around midgame. Specs so it does respectable damage out of BB, BB-Water Shuriken is the best priority attack in the series, breaks sash, gets STAB, 60BP.

>>31213572
this>>31213580
was meant for >>31213569

>>31213584
If anything pushes A-Gren to ubers it will be Water Shuriken.

>>31213421
or they could cut the damage in half and not apply 4x weakness, doing 12.5 to a flier on a switch in is acceptable.

also feel that moves like Whirlwind, Twister and Hurricane should remove all hazards

>>31213614

He's the new gen 4 SDchomp, but this time he's packing priority.

>>31213521
Unlike Torrent Grenigger, every time Ass Grenigger comes in it forces your opponent into a choice between letting a mon faint, and causing Grenigger to evolve, or switching to something and taking a free choice specs boosted hit.

>Playing smogon singles
>Not playing smogon doubles where everything is infinitely more balanced

Why aren't you playing the game the way it was meant to be played?

>>31213614
Wait until Lele is inevitably banned after Gene. Ash-Gren Rain with Koko is coming soon, which will fuck Phero so hard she stays in OU until the next game in the generation. I'm calling it.

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>>31213658
>tfw they deliberately ruined singles so they could force their doubles

>>31213658
>meant to be played
Not every game is Colosseum

>>31213658
My favorite mon isn't good in doubles.

>>31213632

>Whirlwind, Twister and Hurricane should remove all hazards

Thats not a bad idea.

>>31213658

doubles is fucking boring, and im not learning an entirely new game mode

>>31213662

>rain koko with thunder

PREPARE THE ANUS

>>31213676
They even removed triples to force it too.
>>31213683
If only
>>31213686
Mon?

>>31213658
Doubles is some ResidentSleeper shit. There's exactly 1 playstyle, just with different speed tiers. Same reason VGC looks like shit to OU players desu, even when the mons are different everything is bulky offense.

>>31211052
Is Swagger a fantastic move? Yes. But in no way is it uncompetitive, broken, or unhealthy based on the definitions clearly laid out in the framework. The existence of Swagger does not make the more skillful play irrelevant, it simply alters the framework in which those decisions have to be made.

Uncompetitive - The player choice is still paramount to his victory, it just has to be made with the knowledge that Swagger is up (or not for that matter) and is a part of what must be considered for the decision.

Broken - We can concede that Swagger racks up a lot of damage throughout the battle (more or less depending on the inclusion of Swagger weak Pokemon). But this damage does not render the more skillful play irrelevant, if anything it makes the more skillful play even more impactful. Agressively doubling into an advantageous matchup can force the opponent to switch, punishing them for getting out-predicted.

Unhealthy - "This is the most controversial and subjective one, and will therefore be used the most sparingly. The OU Council will only use this amidst drastic community outcry and a conviction that the move will noticeably result in the better player winning over the lesser player." Unless you can honestly argue that you feel that Swagger results in the less skilled player winning when they shouldn't the point is moot in my opinion.

Swagger restricts team building to some extent, but no more than considerations like hazard removers, the necessity to be able to break stall, or the ability to deal with individual threats. Swagger just feels like the scapegoat people are pointing at for why certain Pokemon aren't viable when there are plenty of Swagger weak Pokemon that are thriving. And to be honest, There are going to be good and bad Pokemon regardless of the existence of Swagger. Unless you honestly believe that taking Swagger out of the game will make the game more skill dependent, this discussion isn't worth having.

>>31213776
funny, switching SD for swagger makes the two first points not make sense, as if you could not know about swagger until after it is used, and as if skillful play affects whether or not you roll positively and attack, or negatively and kill yourself.

>>31213741
Scizor. Doesn't help that Tapus are everywhere in doubles now.

>>31213508
Perhaps you would obtain this TM near fogs, in order to remove it.
Watch them retcon it into Pokeride/spoiler]

>>31213776
This doesn't really make sense because Swagger actually does go against the framework they outlined, since it made the game significantly more luck based and therefore was uncompetitive.

>>31213776
>Uncompetitive - The player choice is still paramount to his victory, it just has to be made with the knowledge that Swagger is up (or not for that matter) and is a part of what must be considered for the decision.
Not really since when i decide to play swagger, my strategy boils down to spam it and hope for the best. But thats really not the important part why swagger is considered banworthy:
>Unhealthy - "This is the most controversial and subjective one, and will therefore be used the most sparingly. The OU Council will only use this amidst drastic community outcry and a conviction that the move will noticeably result in the better player winning over the lesser player." Unless you can honestly argue that you feel that Swagger results in the less skilled player winning when they shouldn't the point is moot in my opinion.
This is it. when you swagger your opponents physical sweeper, you basically just say fuck it, toss a (now 2/3 - 1/3 ) coin and see if you lose your mon or he loses his. this is the contrary of a competitively interesting game and thus not favorable - hence you can consider banning it to improve the meta.

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I'm only pissed on how baton pass can only pass one stat

>>31213776
But Swagger actually is these things, unlike Deceptive Dolomite. Rocks are extremely fair, consistent and have an actual opportunity cost on offensive teams, where they are most common.

>>31210994
make stealth rock and spikes absorbed by switch in of a rock / ground type pokemon respectively like toxic spikes and poison types.

Golemn/Rhydon becomes OU

I have no problem with Sneaky Pebbles, especially since there's been a couple new defoggers like Tapu Fini

>>31214961
actually it can pass many stats.
read the freakin' rules teenage idiot.

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why do you lads give a shit about smogon rules? fuck those nerds.

>>31215010
>make stealth rock and spikes absorbed by switch in of a rock / ground type pokemon respectively
this is a good idea

>Golemn/Rhydon becomes OU
You're a bit deluded there though, garchomp is still an OU stapple, and now that nihilego exists and there are still many other better rock types I doubt those two would rise to OU.

Stealth Rock has actually gotten less cancerous over time. It's too late to ban it.

>>31215010
I'd keep spikes as it is
its damage is set and can already be avoided by everything that avoids ground types (which is quite a lot) and it gives it the niche of only entry hazard that requires dedicated removal
agree on stealth rock though

>>31212857
>its the most popular format tho
for good reason

So, smongos are banning confusion after the nerf. How was the coin toss chance better?

At this rate Constrict will be banned before smogonpebbles

>>31213658
this

>>31214961
>>31215042
It bothers me, too, because it makes things weird as shit and honestly seems to fall under the 'complex ban' situation far more than something like Blaze Blaziken/Torrent Greninja would.
I wish that, if there was such a problem with Baton Pass, that they just banned the move instead of having some weirdass clause that is easy to misinterpret as making the game actually function outside of how the game itself works (combined with enforced Promise Not To Do That scenarios - it IS one of those, but it reads otherwise)

>>31215144
Nigger what the fuck are you talking about? Swagger was banned in Gen 6, and it wasn't a ban on confusion, the status or confusion inflicting moves, just Swagger.
>being this slow and wrong and acting superior

>>31215042
Are you blind trip fag, you are on allowed to pass one stat with it because smogonfags are scared of shit like ninjask

>>31214962
>and have an actual opportunity cost on offensive teams
Uh, what? You lay down rocks, sticky web and any properly bred shit can 1HKO most threats after that.

>2017
>still giving a shit about smogon

>>31215551
Because free hazards is a thing that happens against good players, right? Because webs aren't scouted from preview and counter-lead, right? That's why every game ends as soon as hazards go up, because no one packs any removal , revenge killers, or fat pivots, right?
Throwing down hazards is like boosting. You do it because you think you'll actually see the benefit later, instead of instant damage/healing.

>he plays smogon singles

enjoy stealth rock while i enjoy my perfectly viable weather teams

>>31215720
How is dealing with swagger any worse than that? Because of chance? Tons of legal moves still have chance based effects or properties and are still allowed.

>>31216130
On its own, Swagger isn't that bad. However, Prankster users would run full defensive spreads along with Swagger, Thunder Wave, Substitute, and Foul Play. This lets them easily KO enemies without any offensive investment and your only real counter play was to get lucky enough times in a row. The two most prominent users were Liepard, who is frail even with investment and has a poor typing, and Klefki, which has neither of those problems.

Swagger not only boosts the damage they deal to themselves with confusion but it also significantly boosts Foul Play's damage. Due to the way the combo works, you had to get through the full paralysis chance, plus the confusion chance, and even if you did that most of the time you were hitting a sub. All while you get either one shot or two shot by the boosted Foul Play.

Because Substitute has priority, it also meant that unless the Swagger user was very unlucky, that you'd eventually get fully paralyzed or hit yourself in confusion, which gives them a free Substitute with which to either KO you behind or repeat the combo on any subsequent switch-ins, or in the worst case scenario, both.

So yes, it was pretty much because of luck. I wouldn't be surprised if Happy Hour Jirachi ends up suspected this gen, either, for similar reasons.

>>31216130
Honestly, because of SwagPlay+T-Wave Prankster mons. Klefki got swagger banned because that shit had no counter play beyond praying to RNJesus or switching forever into Spikes.
There was nothing fair about having to hit through Para and Confusion, while taking boosted Foul Play's with a chance to boosted punch yourself. Would it be okay in Gen 7 with Dark's immunity to Prankster, still probably not, just because it's one of those "To scout it fully you have to lose something" sets.

>>31213447
Stealth Rock should be stackable, do non-typed damage, and only hit airborne Pokemon; basically an air-based Spikes.

It's definitely a bit janky that you can set up a move that potentially does 50% (I think?) damage to some Pokemon in only one turn.

Can you imagine how fucking boring singles would be without something like rocks? It would literally be doubles into doubles into doubles with zero reasons to become aggressive. No rocks=extremely hard to punish and keep up pressure. Most new/bad players don't understand how rocks low key make this game actually playable.

>>31210994

Swagger isn't even banned right now(nor will it be), but I bet half of you don't even know that

>>31215422
I hate to agree with alomomolakiddie over here, but he's right. look up the clause.

>>31215422
>because smogonfags are scared of shit like ninjask
How to identified someone who never played a baton pass team in his life.

>>31217567
75% these people have never played a game of OU in their life, much less past 1500. They don't know about lead Scolipede and Manaphy and shit, they think le ebin meme sets like you see in pimpnite videos is BP.

SR is okay because you can always bounce or spin them back.

SR is bad because having to include a spinner on your team is overcentralization.

>rain boosted greninja-A everywhere
>has near 0 switchins that dont get 2hkod by water shuriken alone
>still not moved to ubers

???

>>31219474
Will more than likely get a suspect, but a quickban is very silly.

>>31219474
Nigga do you not understand that they suspect shit one at a time. Genesect is being suspected right now, and probably Lele afterwords. They're not going to ban 10 things at once.

>>31216993
Stall would become total cancer.

>>31219829
>>31219509

It obviously needs to be quick banned. You don't need to suspect a better phero with a multi hit priority.

>>31211505
Given that the usual suspects that are vehemently against anything bad being said about Stealth Rock are all posting in that thread, it's not a stretch to imagine that the smogon staff is very willing to dig in its heels whenever someone voices displeasure about it. It's a shame, because quite a few generations ago, the staff at that time had actually seriously considered it (up until it became too late because of lolgarchomp).

SR is still a problem, but Smogon isn't going to admit to being hypocritical when it comes to it and will probably refuse to suspect other shit like Scald so as to not give anyone an excuse -- although Baton Pass is completely fine with being banned in their eyes. Hell, it could be argued that SR is completely broken in Generation 4 and should be retroactively banned in that format and they'll simply refuse because 'it's a dead meta'.

>>31220984
Scald isn't suspect worthy in the least.

>>31220521
Shits not even priority 1 hombre. Lele is next. That's whats going to push Gren over the edge anyway.
>>31220984
SR, Scald and BP are a completely different type of dumb from each other. BP is a move that defined an incredible difficult to beat archetype of stupid boosting. Scald just burns you sometimes with a good neutral typing and distribution on bulky water that makes spamming it extremely easy. Rocks, and hazards as a whole, are the absolute most predictable part of the entire Pokemon experience and if you have no hazard mitigation on a hazard weak team, you deserve to eat shit on switch repeatedly until you die or fix your team. Hell, you could even argue that T-Spikes is worse than SR right now with Toxapex getting up 2 layers super easy, and shit is still hella fair.

>>31221068
It just shouldn't exist. Especially with how widespread it is.
Really hot water should not be more effective at burning things than actual fire, and the fire version of the move has a ridiculously small number of things that can learn it (because it's not a TM, of course)

>>31221277
But really hot water IS more effective at burning things than equally hot actual fire.

>>31215210
They were kinda moving in that direction but the guy who came up with the original clause made this big post about how he's sure it's not broken under the current conditions and they shouldn't ban it because it's been part of the game so long

>>31220521
>THIS NEEDS TO BE BANNED
>its probably going to they just dont want to rock the boat too much by banning so many things at once
>THIS NEEDS TO BE BANNED ******NOOOOOOOWWWWWWWW******

smogonbabs

>>31211052
Why can't they just make stealth rocks do neutral damage like struggle f f s