What is your opinion on the Stealth Rock entry hazard?

>>30678852
cancer

Should have had distribution similar to stucky web or whatever. Would be much better if restricted to rock shitmons

>>30678852
Neutral. Granted I don't play 6v6, and the move sees practically no use in other formats.

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Make no mistake - a tax on switching was necessary.

Stealth Rock is cancerous because it plays favorites, punishing certain Pokemon more than others for absolutely no reason. Fire, Bug, and Ice were already shitty types to have - Stealth Rock made them even worse just by existing.

If Spikes wasn't garbage, there'd be no reason for it to exist.

>>30678852
Stupid and random but I abuse it because it's absurdly overpowered

Why is it just Rocks? Why not, I don't know, a swarm of insects, or stealth brains, or icicles or some shit? Why is Rock literally the only type with an entry hazard that runs off weakness/resistance? It makes no fucking sense.

>>30678903
Yeah, limiting its access or nerfing its damage seems to be the smartest option to me. Entry hazards beyond plain ol spikes were a bad idea to begin with imo.

>>30678852
i wouldn't mind hazards if there were more moves to get rid of them, even with Defog is just not enough

I like the idea of entry hazards since they dissuade switchfest stalemates. I'd still like it more if there was a stealth rocks equivalent for more types, but you could only have one of said equivalent up at a time.

stealth ice

>>30678903
This. The main problem is that it was a TM in Gen IV causing Game Freak to keep adding it as a tutor. Not that it would matter if you were playing on Smogon since they don't restrict you to what can be learned in that generation.Fucking Wish Chansey and V Create Mega Ray

>>30678984
I wonder if making them ice type would be better. Part of the reason they have type effectiveness is because Flying type gets away with too much bullshit. Reliable recovery, immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, Earthquake and Arena Trap, resists fighting, one of its weaknesses is prone to missing at the worst possible times. The only problem with making it Ice is that grass types get boned.

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Entry hazards in general are cancer.

Some Pokemon have to run a useless move to remove them, and other Pokemon are completely shut down because of them. Stealth Rock is the worst of the bunch.

Punishing others for constantly switching sounds good on paper, but people should really rely on getting into their opponent's minds and making bold decisions instead falling back on hazards as a reason to be lazy and make simple-minded plays.

It's boring to play with and against hazards and the Pokemon that set them up.

I have a surprise Magic Coat user on every team just as a "haha" kind of thing.

How is stealth rock in doubles?

>>30678984
>fire is bad
>spikes are shit
How can someone be so objectively wrong

>yfw they add an ability that, once per battle, when this pokémon is sent out, automatically lays stealth rocks

>>30679142
Just do what several people have said and get rid of the typing part of it altogether. Make it do normal spike damage unless the mon is flying/levitating in which case it does more. Exactly how much more is up for debate, but it keeps it being a general hazard without completely fucking gimping certain mons purely do to their type while still acting as a punishment for the usually safe Flyers and Levitaters.

>>30679179
>useless move
>having use

also i feel the game would be more simple otherwise. more at stake for every switch makes you think more. predicting should be a last resort in pokemon. going for solid safe options is almost always best, and i think hazards help keep it like that

>>30678852
Anything that punishes stall is fine with me.

>>30679241
>fire isn't bad
>spikes are inferior to SR

How's sub 1000 treating you?

>>30678852
I don't care because it's irrelevant in Doubles.
It was cool to see Kukui use it in the final battle.

>>30679306
Pretty much this. I'm a stall fag, but SR are necessary to shit on it.

People here are only thinking about typing and are apparently oblivious to what SR actually does, fuck with stall and give us faster games that reward being offensive.

>>30679068
This right here.
I appreciate the buff to Defog, but only a handful of Defoggers get it as level up move or Egg move. The better ones only get it from the gen 4 HM, which is generally fine for Showdown, but not so much for cart.
Sneaky Pebbles are just too strong now, I think it'd be better if, just like Toxic Spikes, there was a way to remove them by switching in a Rock type or something.

>>30679264
>yfw they add an ability that, when the Pokemon is struck by a physical attack it scatters a layer of Spikes

>>30679241
Name a few times when spikes are more useful than meme rock

>>30679306
most of the times it's stall that takes advantage of hazards to limit your switch ins

>>30679368
>People here are only thinking about typing
Because typing is the most cancerous part of it and the only reason anyone argues about Stealth Rock at all. Punishing Stall is fine, but it needs to be done in a way that doesn't completely shit on a whole bunch of Pokemon at the same time for no other reason than their type.

>>30679307
Not him but
>fire isn't bad
In a world without stealth rock, which is the context of that statement, it isn't
>spikes are inferior to SR
He never said that, and he was disputing the guy saying SR was added because of spikes being bad. How's grade 1 reading comprehension treating you?

>>30679307
>Inferior=bad
>providing no arguments
Do you know what hyper offense is? Do you know that one of the best Skarmorys sets uses Spikes over rocks? Are you aware of the fact that hazard stacking is still a very viable strategy?

>>30679299

The meta is already a shit luck-based game of rock-paper-scissor based on which branch of the same flowchart each player will pick.
If you remove even that small part of prediction the game will be a solved riddle in which you can call the winner already from the first turn because there's no possible moves you won't be able to predict.

>>30678985
Pretty sure GF regrets adding it in the first place, so now they don't want to risk adding any more.

The focus of DP (according to some interviews with masuda, I think) was to refine battling, and they got ahead of themselves and created stealth rock, not having any foresight to see how terrible of an idea it could be in practice.

I don't know why rock was the type chosen when you think about the move. of all of the types, rock seems like the furthest thing from stealth. its hard to imagine

>>30679271
This. SR doing maybe 16.67% (Equal to two layers of Spikes) to Flying-types and Levitate Pokémon to punish them for being able to avoid all other hazards would've been acceptable to me.
Giving them the potential to do 25% or 50% of a Pokémon's health as soon as they switch in, on the other hand, is fucking ridiculous, as is punishing Ice, Fire and Bug-types for absolutely no reason, and I can't believe it's been nearly four generations since their introduction and they still haven't been nerfed at all.

>>30678852
>>30679179
I visited my old college Gaming Club last week, and there's this one autist who never fucking graduates that is always trying to do events that said he was going to be doing a S/M tournament thing.

But he specifically sperged out and yelled "AND NO FUCKING ENTRY HAZARDS".
So, I guess they at least piss off aspies.

Personally, I don't mind them too much, both sides can choose to use them and you can build around them, so I don't see them being so bad.

>>30678852
>Flying type pokemon get crippled
>Meanwhile Pokemon with Levitate doesn't get bonus damage
This is unfair.

>>30678852
Don't mind them since I mostly play doubles.

Fuck birds.

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>>30679551
The problem with Game Freak is that they're so damn reluctant to hand out a heavy nerf to something like this.

Just make Stealth Rock do half-damage against non-flying, non-Levitating pokemon. Isn't that what hidden geodes was supposed to be used for - an entry-hazard for pokemon that usually ignore Spikes?

>>30680493
>The problem with Game Freak is that they're so damn reluctant to hand out a heavy nerf to something like this.
I don't really see why. Dark Void got a huge nerf. Weather was nerfed back in Gen VI.

I personally think it's more that Stealth Rocks isn't nearly as prominent in Doubles, which is what all of the mechanical changes are really focused on these days.

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>>30678852
>What is your opinion on the Stealth Rock entry hazard?

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>>30681053
I cried during this scene

>>30681053
kek

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>>30681053
I know that feeling...

>>30678852
okay but hurts a lot of shitmons like ice types and bug types for no reason
there should've been an entry hazard to punish dragon and ground types instead

>>30681284
Maybe something like the ice traps Empoleon lays in Pokken

>>30681311
>nerfing grass

Fuck you.

>>30681311
Sneaky Ice would be pretty damn horrifying.

>>30681096
I don't get why people use that scene as an example of the first movie being sad when the entire prologue is fucking heartwrenching. Dr. Fuji had a hard life.

Either remove the type advantage for it, or keep the type advantage and remove the entry hazard when the pokemon that used it is removed from the field.

The concept is fine, it just needs some tweaking to make it less bullshit.

>>30681369
Rip cancerus, would not be missed
Welcome our new volcorona/fini/heatran/pelipper/zard/toxapex overlords

>>30678852
honestly i like it, theres pokemon out here that shouldnt be allowed to switch in for free

>>30681729
I wouldn't mind losing the Genies of Healthy Meta (or Gliscor, for that matter), but it shits all over a bunch of other things as well.
Imagine switching Dragonite in on both rocks and icicles, 75% health down the drain immediately.
All birds would be completely fucked as well.
Current rocks were a mistake, but adding more variants won't fix that either.

I like it, punishes for switching and adds another layer of strategy, specially if you have Pokémon weak to rocks, however I think it wrecks some Pokémon really hard, maybe nerfing the damage to a maximum of 25% instead of 50% on 4x weaknesses?

I don't know, also I think it's kinda unfair against some underused types like Bug and Ice that are weak defensively already.

Also I would like to see some variants, maybe Sneaky Icicles, that can't stack with rocks, is absorbed by Ice-types (like Toxic Spikes), Ice-types are immune to it and does damage based on the type chart, would be a buff to Ice and a good alternative option to use.

non levitate/flying Rock and ground types should absorb the pebbles like poison absorbs toxic spikes

>>30681951
>Falling Icicles
>Ice Type, -- BP, 20 PP
>User deep freezes area above foe's side of the field. Whenever a Pokemon is sent out, icicles fall and deals 1/8th of foe's HP as damage. Stacks with weaknesses.

stealth rock shouldn't be a near straight upgrade to regular spikes.

What hazards need is more variants, and making it so only one hazard is allowed per side as a time.

So you both get to not fuck over only things weak to rock for no reason whatsoever, and you avoid the creation of "hazard teams" dedicated to setting up 18 types of spikes that instakill everything you switch in.

>>30681538
this
>Ash is dead
they should all be havin a party

>>30678852
It's too easy to set up for what it does (permanent, 25-50% damage merely by switching in, etc.). While they tried to fix their mistake with stuff like Magic Bounce and Defog, pro players can outplay these things easy.
While some tax on switch ins is needed imo, Stealth Rock is not the way. It definitely needs to be nerfed. If enough people whine GF might actually do something about it. Gen 7 pretty much proved GF has people lurking on 4chan and/or watching popular PokeTubers for gameplay mechanics and moves that are in desperate need of nerfing (Thunder Wave, Scald, para, SwagPlay, Talonflame, etc.)

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It's a bit harsh to lose half your health, maybe it will get nerfed.

>>30679094
>Not black ice
One job!

Charizard, Butterfree, Moltres, Mega-Pinsir, Ledyba, Ledian, Ho-oh, Beautifly, Masquerain, Yanmega, Ninjask, S H E D I N J A, Vespiqueen, Mothim, Volcorona, Talonflame, Vivillion, Delibird, Articuno.

>>30681910
I think the other guy meant that you got either ice or rocks, not both (like weather or terrain, new ones would override previous). I'm not sure if everyone would choose ice over rocks but i feel like countering balancedorus and chomp would make ice favoured

>>30678852
Should've been either removed or nerfed a long time ago.

>>30679230
Entry hazards in general are shit in doubles. Lot less switching out and more focus on just setting up your partner.

Stealth Ice when

>>30678852
Play doubles.
Either VGC or Smogon DoublesOU. And you don't have to deal with this shit.

Why not just make it so that grounded Pokemon are immune to it, and Flying types/Levitate Pokemon are affected by it as is?

I love Stealth Rocks but think it is problematic and wish the game was balanced better in general.
Fewer Pokemon should have access to SR, and Pokemon coming from Bank to a new generation need to lose moves they can/should no longer have access to. SR wouldn't be a problem if it was something Golem/Gigalith/Carbink had instead of something Garchomp and Skarmory could have in addition to the other great things they already have, and having semi-exclusive access to SR would make Rock shitmons a bit more viable without even addressing their shit BST/movepool/abilities.

>>30685734
>and Pokemon coming from Bank to a new generation need to lose moves they can/should no longer have access to

You'd really want to fuck up my bros from Emerald and Diamond just to take care of one move?

>>30678852
The only real problem with SR is the fact that it applies typed damage.
If it didn't randomly fuck over certain types just because, and make anything with a 4x weakness to rock either need to be DAMN good or be completely worthless. And if you resist rock, it does shit-all.
If it did the same damage to everything, it would still be useful for its intended purpose, without fucking some things over for no good reason and barely being a thing for others.

>>30678852
It rocks

Generally, I really despise how Stealth Rock has warped the singles metagame, but endless switching wars were an annoyance and I'm glad to not see that again.

I'd be more comfortable if Smogon just fucking admitted they have a hard on for rocks and stopped twisting themselves into knots as to why rocks are not broken or suspectable. We already know they break so many of their banning principles, but if you look at the latest topic calling it into question, you get their usual clique of users implying the ones complaining don't even play that well in the first place.

>>30687552
Well, no, not just one move. Just general balancing so you don't have to transfer guys from gen 3 or make Verlis cry to get the movesets you want. What's appropriate in one metagame may not be in the next one, and I don't think everything should carry over. I also think a ton of Pokemon should have their BST/typing/abilities/movepool entirely overhauled at some point. I really would like for this to be a better balanced game and pruning moves would be a decent way to start that.

>>30687552
>>30689252

On one hand, losing access to transfer only moves would be a terrible decision and would directly affect the viability of several Pokemon.

On the other, I would be fully in support of them completely nuking Stealth Rock from existence and replacing it with a very watered-down version of it this way.

Rocks would be much better if we had better ways to deal with it.
A terrain that prevented hazards, abilities that cleared Hazards/switched them, an item that pops them all on switchin, or greatly increased access to Defog (Sinnoh remakes pls) would go a long way to making Rocks less cancerous

>>30689252
I agree with you in an ideal situation where gamefreak actually researches and does things to balance the biggest amount of mons possible. In real life though, they'll just do arbitrary things that will result in dozens of Pokemon being worse for no reason.

>>30689976
Well, to their credit, they did finally take the axe to Dark Void by having it locked to Darkrai. Was the reduction to 50 Accuracy necessary? Probably not, but no one is exactly crying over it. At least they saw the VGC 15 Debacle and decided to try and avoid that.

I dunno. It feels like that with all the overpowered shit that keeps coming out and broken mechanics/hazards, GF wants to shift to VGC Doubles as the official format and not bother with singles balancing at all.

I know if you put a Steel-type in, you automatically remove any Toxic Spikes on your side of the field, so why can't they do that with other types to get rid of regular spikes/rocks?

Either that, or they fade after a few turns/couple activations.

Those would be good nerfs that let them stay somewhat useful, but not completely dominating.

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>>30678985
>Stealth brains
>Telekinetically levitating brains inflict mind shocks to any non-dark type pokemon or any pokemon without magic guard upon entry.

Just make stealth rocks an un-typed entry hazard that can hit levitating and flying-type pokemon. Buff spikes so it isn't invalidated by rocks. Toxic spikes and sticky web can stay the same. Add more hazards of different types and effects to the game to keep entry hazards prevalent and discourage constant switching.

>>30687552
>>30689815
You don't have to ruin those pokemon. Let them keep their moves. Don't let them pass on through breeding. Actually use the g6 pentagon and g6 clover icons. Transfered Pokemon wouldn't have those, which currently bans them from use in officially sponsored tournaments. Smogon should adopt that, too. All it amounts to on the simulator is keeping competitive movesets in line with what the Pokemon can learn THIS generation, and your old Pokemon still keep their moves for in-game use and when playing for fun online.

>>30690473
I meant the g7 clover icon.

What's going to happen to the meta when a pokemon is released with the ability to destroy all entry hazard upon switch ?

>>30690520
>smogon shits itself
>suspects it for warping the meta and making it unenjoyable

irony.png

>>30690520
Is the pokemon also immune to any entry hazard inflictions from damage from SR and spikes and poison from toxic spikes, upon entry? I'd imagine that u-turn and volt switch would be more in favour for certain pokemon if they haven't already have that as a favourable move option.

>>30690473
>buff spikes

do you seriously want the meta to become stall? Because that's how you get stall

Stealth Rock is a decent idea but if they built out the concept instead of just nerfing or removing it, it would be better. Add hazards of different types:
>Volt Trap
Electric-type entry hazard. Ground-types are immune, Electric-types are both immune and remove it upon entry
>Icicles
Ice-type entry hazard. Ice-types are immune and remove it upon entry
>Rock-types take no damage and remove Stealth Rock upon switching in.
And so forth.

And add entry hazards that cause status, like:
>Stun Trap
The first Pokemon to switch into this hazard is immediately paralyzed. Electric-types are immune, and the hazard immediately dissipates regardless of whether it successfully inflicted paralysis or not (pre-existing status, Limber, etc.)

>>30689815
Well, give them other moves or make them part of their baseline learnset/TM acquisitions, ya dingus. Give Chansey a way to learn Wish if you want Chansey to be able to use Wish instead of just having it be a Gen 3 Event move or remove it entirely. Some Pokemon would lose moves, others would just get them in different ways.

>>30689976
Yeah, they're pretty shit.

>>30690220
Which is dreadful for me, because I've never liked Doubles.

>>30690435
On the topic of Stealth Brains, I've always wished Future Sight was worth using. It should be like a three turn attack or something. Maybe 40-50 Power three turns in a row or something, so it's kind of a light pressure tactic because now they're getting hit three times in succession instead of all at once, but also taking other damage or allowing set-up on all of those turns. I don't know, it needs to do something better than what it currently does.

>>30678985
Fire: Embers: Grounded pokemon take a small amount of fire damage and have a small chance of suffering a burn.
Water: Undertow: Grounded pokemon have their speed reduced one stage upon entry.
Grass: Thorns: Grass damage upon entry. Fire types take damage as though they didn't resist grass, but also remove the thorns.
Ice: Icy terrain: Any grounded pokemon who misses an attack takes damage as though they 'kept going and crashed', a la HJK. Ice types are immune.
Ghost: Spooky Terrain: PP costs are doubled for non-ghost types. If a Pressure pokemon is present, they are tripled instead.
Psychic: Brain Lock: A random move is disabled for 1 turn upon switch-in.
No ideas for fairy and dragon.

>>30690659
Excuse me, but I use hazard offense, getting that layer of spikes plus rocks is all you need for neutral stabs to annihilate the other player team.

Hazards are not a stall tool, they are the biggest tool against stall.

If you think hazards fuck you when stall uses it, we'll you probably aren't a good team builder, stall as it stands now is awfully cucked and giving away momentum by setting early hazards can actually cost some stall teams their game.

>>30690520
It becomes a stall fest, look at dugtrio/gothitrap in stall, the ability to remove or hamper a wincon is pretty much all stall needs to win.

>>30690857
Just to let you know, Undertow is literally my mom's Sticky Web as Sticky Web too lower's the opponent's grounded pokemon speed by one stage.

>>30690990
Yeah, it probably needs a rework.

What about trapping opponents in a weaker version of Whirlpool upon entry? Water types immune, of course.

Also, new removal:
Conglomerate: Steel type. removes all hazards on both sides of the field, heals 5% HP per hazard removed (spike layers count as 1 hazard each)

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>>30691062
>Arena Trap: The Entry Hazard (sans water types)

>>30691062
oh, that's interesting.
doesn't even have to be water, the concept reminds me of like some sort of bear trap.

you set it, and then the next time the opponent switches in, they can't switch out their 'mon for two or three turns. lets you switch to a counter and set up, so they have to consider more than a few turns in advance.

Once it triggers once it disappears, so basically a delayed fairy lock. (or it sticks around but only forbids switching for one turn?) Fairy Lock sucks because you have to keep using it, but this turns into a sort of portable Shadow Tag. You're still probably going to waste a turn switching, but then you have a free turn where you control the matchup.

it wouldn't even have to do damage, honestly, the advantage of delaying your opponent's counters would be pretty sweet. If they forget and switch into something bulky, you could get off a shell smash or two and sweep with no consequences.

>>30691184
>>30691239
Something that prevents switching for 2 turns might be cool. It'd be better (bordering on abso-fucking-lutely broken) if it had priority over switching out, like Pursuit does.

>>30690857
I do kinda like the idea of all types having some kind of entry/switch/field move, but I don't know that they all need to be hazards. Consider Tailwind, y'know? Nothing bad happens to the other team, but it can still be devastating because it's such a boon to yours. I also don't like the idea of entry hazards with "a small chance" of doing anything, because losing a game due to Embers fucking you over would be the worst feeling. I personally don't want to see more RNG added to the game.

I really think restricting Rocks to fewer Pokemon and making Magic Bounce available to a decent handful more (4-5 more fully evolved Pokemon, probably) would make a world of difference.

Why is this still a fucking move?
How has it gone un-nerfed for so fucking long?

I abhor Stealth Rocks with every fiber in my body.

>>30679376
I thought Rock switch-ins disrupting SR would be nice, but I like the idea of Fighting types having the reflexes to destroy the rocks with their Fighting-type moves before they do damage as the rocks home in on them as they switch in.

>>30692327
Because gamefreak is still too hesitant about straight up deleting moves entirely, instead either giving things stealth nerfs (sucker punch) or just taking an axe to it (dark void).

GF is very aware of how stupid Stealth Rock is. Notice how in Gen 5 that only like two or three new Pokemon could learn it, and in Gen 6 they made Defog not useless anymore and had it remove hazards. They know how annoying it is, which is why they have that trainer on Route 3 with the Red Card strategy and lol Kukui.

However, since they don't want to nerf it (for whatever reason), their solution is to promote Battle Spot Singles (which is 3v3, making setting up hazards riskier) and VGC Doubles (which moves way too fast to even think about laying hazards down).

Full on 6v6 is an unbalanced mess at higher levels of play. Smogon has tried to make a metagame that is fun and enjoyable at the same time out of this, but right now it's hijacked by people who don't know that they even want.

Brief history: Senior staff had actually been seriously debating testing Stealth Rock in DP, because it fucked the meta so much that it had become practically unrecognizable. Unfortunately, they were already mired in the disastrous Garchomp suspect test, which took well over a year to actually complete. By the time it was done, enough division had grown between the staff over both issues that testing Stealth Rock was off the table entirely.

Unfortunately, it was at that point that none of the staff would even entertain the thought of looking at SR more closely. Any attempts to bring it up were brushed off as sour grapes or the classic "well your ladder rank isn't even that high" ad hominem. Further discussion would just have the staff make strawmen and delegitimize the poster's opinions. Posts were deleted and all discussions on it were silenced.

Gen 5 was so retarded that the staff acquiesced for a moment and created a ladder without SR, with the caveat that no suspect testing would happen.

Continued from : >>30693213

The tier leader at that time even casually disregarded the ladder entirely, saying that it was novel but the Volcarona/Moltres flying everywhere was proof that SR was a good thing.

Stealth Rock has become so entrenched in the meta that any attempt to look at it as a bad thing for the game is met with derision and hostility at Smogon. They will not tolerate any arguments against why it should ever be looked at as a suspect. Anyone trying to show how Smogon has twisted itself so much to justify Pokemon/Baton Pass bans and not an SR suspect are immediately ignored by the clique.

In short: SR sucks and the 6v6 metagame sucks harder. It's still fun at points, but it's almost a chore.

>>30692327
I don't mind them too much even if I don't entirely like how it works, but part of that is because I always found flying types to be a pain in the ass more recently. It's such a fantastic typing defensively and offensively, the only thing that really holds it back is SR weakness and the fact that not too many mons actually get good flying STAB.

>>30678852
Really fucking gay, has been overpowered for years and gamefreak does nothing. Losing 25% to 50% HP upon going onto the field without the enemy even making a move yet is pure fucking cancer, stupid shit.

It hurts even more that there is basically 1, 2 viable rapid spinners in the whole of 700+ pokemon

stealth rock should just be nerfed to be a spikes-version for flying/levitating types

>>30678852

it's over centralizing but also needed because bulky pivots would be too good without SR existing.

Stealth Rocks made Pursuit worthless

>>30692327
t.Alonflame

>>30693387
lol

>>30692663
Your logic is sound, but I'd argue that Rock needs the buff more.

>>30678903
Its distribution WAS nerfed in Gen V when it was taken out of the TM pool and almost no new Pokemon could learn it. And newer tournaments don't let you use Pokemon transferred from older generations, so the number of non-shitty Pokemon who actually still have it is much lower.

Blame Fagon for deciding if it was ever legal it gets to stay legal forever. Or cry to Nintendo to make a whole new type that's immune to Rock. It's what happened last time Smogon fags got their feelings hurt by their own fucking format.

I think it's more an issue of the basic mechanics of pokemon combat not being particularly good in the first place, that moves like SR are created to try to band aid fix elements of the game.

>>30678852
There needs to be an ability that removes hazards. Literally the best way to balance it, especially if it's on something average.

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>>30679179
switching having no penalty is cancer. You can just switch around countering shit all fucking day spamming recover like a faggot, even now with switching penalties. It's 100 times worse without them.

the 12% is a perfect number, because it is just just enough chip damage to let walls be broken down when switched in. We can all agree that 25% is probably too much and 50% is fucking STUPID, but the game is fucked if there are no entry hazards.

>>30694344
it just shouldn't have have a type, rocks should be 12% that hits everything and spikes should be the more powerful one that you have to set multiple of and doesn't hit guys in the air

>>30694344
I don't think anyone disagrees with hazards at all. Endless switching was the bane of GSC and it makes watching any battle torturous. Spikes and Toxic Spikes have a counter in Flying/Levitate/Magic Guard too, and it wouldn't be unreasonable for a hazard that hits them to be created as well.

Unfortunately, GF didn't have any idea what they created until it was too late. The easiest fix would be to cap its damage at some lowish number, like 11% (maybe a bit higher for flying types, because they already have enough advantages), and to disregard type effectiveness.

I think it's still a symptom of a slightly bigger problem in that GF has to go back and change the type matchup chart. They did this somewhat in Gen 6 by creating Fairy and nerfing Steel a bit, but now we've ended up with Fairy being an incredible typing and others just as bad off as before. Weaknesses need to be looked at and changed -- what worked in Gens 1 and 2 are definitely not working now. There is no reason for Ice and Bug to be such shitty defensive typings, or for Water to be so incredible either way.

>>30694412
bug doesnt need to be any better. It's offset with how stupid U-turn is, and how otherwise good all kinds of bugs are (think Scizor, Buzzwole, Genesect, Pinsir, Heracross, etc)

Ice really isnt dumpter tier, and rock kind of sucks too

>>30694412
>>30694436
bug just needs to have less things resist it and ice needs to have resistances like the rest of the types do,also rock is pretty fine already

File: low.png (23KB, 90x108px) Image search: [Google]

23KB, 90x108px

>>30679179
>pedotoon image
>retarded, ill informed post

SR needs to go or be nerfed
Ice needs 2 more resistances
Steel or Fairy needs to be nerfed defensively

Steel/Fairy is the most retarded typing in the game. It's fucking horseshit

OK what if -
>Clarity Orb
>Entry Hazards are cleared when this pokemon switches in, and it is unaffected by them. This pokemon cannot regain HP within battle.