Usage based tiers

>>30642336
I agree but if you ever see usage stats for online competitions their pretty much the same mons over and over again. So tiering differently or no tiering helps noone

>>30642336
Smogon bans retarded shit because they like Pokemon's meta to be more stale than it already is. What else is new?

Don't play competitive anything if you want to see creativity. Competitive is where creativity goes to die, in virtually any game.

What's your alternative? Don't say "ban all legendaries/Megas" either.

Tiers exist to let weaker mons be viable in a certain environment by banning ones that outclass them, not to tell scrubs what's good in OU and what's not.
Aegislash was banned from OU because it centralised the tier to a ridiculous degree and made a ton of Fighting and Psychic types straight up unviable due to combination of its stupidly good typing and effective 720BST (not without limitations, but King's Shield is a very good move either way).

Yeah, it's better to just battle with your normal pokemons against overpowered bullshit like aegislash, mega kanga, mega salamence and stuff, right?

You should try UU/RU, they're actually fun and it's really the right way to truly enjoy competitive pokemon.

>>30642629
Weaker mons aren't necessarily weaker mons anon.

If x pokemon is ou but has an y counter on a lower tier because other pokemon in ou are a bad matchup against it, then you have a pokemon who could be viable if the OU tier was more fairly balanced.

A good example of this is seeing how japan has different tiers to the US because they favor different strategies.

I agree that some shit can be absurdly strong because GF makes it that way, like legendaries or some pseudos. But theres some shit that is also simply unfairly judged. My favorite example of this is aegislash. Everyone uses it because its good in a myraid of situations but then everyone complains about it because they can't usually predict what its running.

>>30642336
>Why exactly do people think this is a good thing and not overcentralizing as opposed to just plain analyzing the pokemon to figure out whats a good matchup against what?

The idea is that the people using them have already done the stats and whatever's really good will end up used the most, rather than having some thinktank of a few nerds try to plan out every possible scenario for hundreds of digimon that can have hundreds of different movesets and different abilities with interdependent stats and effects.

Also if you want to win then there pretty much is "only one way to play", and that's with an OU tamagotchi and maybe an UU angelgotchi, not with some never used pox.

>>30642830
>If x pokemon is ou but has an y counter on a lower tier because other pokemon in ou are a bad matchup against it, then you have a pokemon who could be viable if the OU tier was more fairly balanced.
Anon you just claimed that a Pokemon's rank should be altered if it has 1 (one) good use against a specific Pokemon. No dude.

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>lol m-muh tiers

>m-muh tears

>m-muh smogon

>m-muh shitty balancing

>can't beat it, must be banned then

>you don't play smogon what's wrong with you? ohh wait its fucking unofficial nevermind


gaime freaku raughs at u smogonites

>>30642830
You can run an NU, RU, or UU mon in OU, no one will stop you. You might even be successful.
If X is OU, and has Y counter that's in RU though, there's probably a reason it's RU. If it was that great at countering a common OU threat, it would be OU itself.

>>30642830
>If x pokemon is ou but has an y counter on a lower tier because other pokemon in ou are a bad matchup against it, then you have a pokemon who could be viable if the OU tier was more fairly balanced.
Then use it. OU doesn't forbid you to use Pokemon from lower tiers.

>>30642963
Perhaps i didnt phrase it very well but no thats not what i meant. Thats a generalization. I just gave you a simple example, but you can broaden it to say y can counter these kind of pokemon in OU but nobody uses it because X is too widely used. Which is dumb because you have 6 pokemon to work with.

>"Tiers"
>implying anybody online gives a shit when unofficial "tiers" have literally zero influence on what you're allowed to use

>>30643290
But the thing you seem to be missing is that if you find a Pokemon that counters several OU threats, that is somehow still below OU, once it starts being used to counter those OU Pokemon, it will gain usage. If an RU Pokemon does really well at countering OU stuff commonly, it's probably on its way to being OU.
Can you provide a specific example of a lower tiered Pokemon successfully countering multiple OU'mons and still remaining lower-tier? I can't think of any real examples.

>>30643356
Yes people figured out a new niche for a certain pokemon (happened to quagsire and tangrowth), so it shoots up to OU.

What's the issue, that you can no longer use it in the lower tiers?

>>30643400
No, I don't have an issue. I'm looking for an example of a low tier Pokemon functioning well in OU, but somehow staying low-tier. It's been used as an example as though it happens often, but I've never heard of it.

>>30643072
Are you /vp/ or Smogon in this situation?

>>30643445
Bronzong

>>30643356
>point i seem to be missing is that pokemon gains usage
>entire point of OP is that tiers based on usage is shit

What did he mean by this?

>>30643356
Clefable

Also the point in general is that usage is a shit tier medium. If Greninja is the most OU pokemon ever because of his ability, it doesn't actually mean it can't be countered, which is the idea that tiers tend to cultivate. Also i mean this in a generalized way. Like for example The "OU the team" meme, that sort of setup is seen way to commonly and its easy to predict and counter, however most people prefer to just keep using it because lack of creativity, which in turn leads to skewed results.

>reach 1600 rating
>everyone is using mostly the same pokemon and setups
>get a couple of """shitmons""" that counter them
>win easily

>>30644483
Even though a mon might not be uncounterable, they may still be so powerful that all teams with a hope of winning need not only to run that pokemon but also a dedicated counter to it.

This centralizes the meta and causes less creativity, which vgcfags always lament the lack off in smogon for some reason.

Usage based tiers are the optimal method of achieving a healthy metagame where the largest amount of pokemon possible can become useful.

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>pokemon's competitive is bad

>>30644623
This really only applies to certain pokemon and its usually pseudos which are meant to be that way.

Stuff like Greninja, aegislash or blaziken are not this. Greninja, for example, is a late game sweeper meaning it cannot come in until you eliminate all its possible threats so it cannot fall under this category. what you are describing is a pokemon that can come in on almost anything and do its thing, which applies to a very select few.

If a pokemon has a strategy that counters "ou the team" then it is considered over centralizing and banned to ubers, and thats only part of the problem. I still remember when Feraligatr of all things was suspect just because of sheer force, you could say the community itself is also rather skewed on opinions.

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>>30644773
No, this applies to not only pokemon, but every other pvp games with multiple characters that employ banning as a form of balancing the meta (think dota or LoL). Rather than have every match be played around a certain character that is way too good, you ban them and make room for a larger amount of weaker characters.

Stuff like greninja wasn't banned because it counters all the sub 1400 shitters that use a cookie cutter OU team. It was banned because it was so good that you had to use it, or be left at a major disadvantage at the higher ranks. And then you also had to run a specific counter to your opponents greninja.
Since greninja can 2hko so many pokemon, this pool of counters is incredibly small. Many special walls became absolutely useless and you were forced to use chansey/M-venu.

>"what you are describing is a pokemon that can come in on almost anything and do its thing"

Never described this, you're putting words in my mouth. A pokemon can be extremely overpowered even with glaring flaws. A lategame can sweeper can extremely overpowered and force overcentralisation, even though you can "just switch to a wall lol, it can't 2hko everything so it isn't that bad".

Since you rag so much on usage based tiers, what tiering option is better for achieving a maximum amount of pokemon being useable?

>>30644535
The problem with that is below 1600 your team of shitmons counters fuck all. You didn't use that team to rise to 1600. You changed it to counter what was widely used in 1600.

>>30645125
I want to hear this answer, myself. OP seems to be full of so many better ideas.