SM OU USAGE STATS RELEASED

| 26 | Greninja | 7.48746% | 65723 | 6.722% | 48416 | 6.655% |
| 27 | Metagross-Mega | 7.31705% | 57914 | 5.923% | 42446 | 5.834% |
| 28 | Chansey | 7.04993% | 39149 | 4.004% | 28895 | 3.972% |
| 29 | Xurkitree | 6.93947% | 85452 | 8.740% | 61919 | 8.511% |
| 30 | Charizard-Mega-X | 6.79198% | 56341 | 5.762% | 41186 | 5.661% |
| 31 | Excadrill | 6.70391% | 49131 | 5.025% | 35914 | 4.936% |
| 32 | Kartana | 6.68378% | 77062 | 7.882% | 53209 | 7.314% |
| 33 | Rotom-Wash | 6.43566% | 48578 | 4.968% | 40392 | 5.552% |
| 34 | Clefable | 6.10793% | 41240 | 4.218% | 28500 | 3.917% |
| 35 | Porygon-Z | 5.95988% | 42693 | 4.366% | 29487 | 4.053% |
| 36 | Mimikyu | 5.90094% | 68661 | 7.022% | 48339 | 6.644% |
| 37 | Bisharp | 5.86784% | 28087 | 2.873% | 19379 | 2.664% |
| 38 | Sableye-Mega | 5.65683% | 28274 | 2.892% | 24106 | 3.313% |
| 39 | Pelipper | 5.61340% | 68896 | 7.046% | 62428 | 8.581% |
| 40 | Manaphy | 5.10984% | 21566 | 2.206% | 15343 | 2.109% |
| 41 | Pinsir-Mega | 5.08017% | 38341 | 3.921% | 25449 | 3.498% |
| 42 | Gyarados-Mega | 4.86991% | 28785 | 2.944% | 21133 | 2.905% |
| 43 | Magnezone | 4.49065% | 39920 | 4.083% | 31244 | 4.295% |
| 44 | Alakazam-Mega | 4.47728% | 42012 | 4.297% | 27290 | 3.751% |
| 45 | Nihilego | 4.16441% | 41058 | 4.199% | 32252 | 4.433% |
| 46 | Zapdos | 4.13918% | 22145 | 2.265% | 17388 | 2.390% |
| 47 | Kingdra | 4.07374% | 45213 | 4.624% | 33038 | 4.541% |
| 48 | Mandibuzz | 3.88112% | 23682 | 2.422% | 17998 | 2.474% |
| 49 | Greninja-Ash | 3.77764% | 67136 | 6.866% | 50228 | 6.904% |
| 50 | Tyranitar | 3.57611% | 35766 | 3.658% | 27936 | 3.840% |
| 51 | Hippowdon | 3.49224% | 34638 | 3.543% | 29024 | 3.989% |

Just to clarify, anything not on this list doesn't make OU by usage, however that necessarily doesn't mean they're unviable in OU.

Nevertheless, if they're not on this list they probably aren't viable anyway. Like Decidueye for example.

Mantine, Tapu Fini and Kingdra are a lot higher than I thought they would be. Good for them.

>>30639190
Kingdra is there because a load of poketubers used and ABR rain team that everyone and their mum copied and used. It was everywhere

>>30639190
Pelipper really helped rain a lot. And of course where rain goes, Kingdra goes.

>>30639157
>| 23 | Skarmory | 7.72845% | 52155 | 5.334% | 42503 | 5.842% |
>| 24 | Mantine | 7.62834% | 53199 | 5.441% | 41608 | 5.719% |
This is beautiful. I'm so glad I lived to see this. I hope to God Mantine stays.

>>30639440
I think it may fall a bit as the novelty wears off. It might also fall a bit in usage when Phero gets banned.

>>30639161
>Charizard-Mega-X | 6.79198% | 56341 | 5.762% | 41186 | 5.661% |
Where the fuck is Zard Y?

>>30639478
Getting ready to smash UU.

>>30639440
>Mantine
Is it t-true b-bros?

>>30639478
UU

UU is basically OU now and OU is ubers lite.

>>30639161
>| 46 | Zapdos | 4.13918% | 22145 | 2.265% | 17388 | 2.390% |
Hanging on for dear life.

>>30639157
What set does cocoa run?

>>30639556
MZard Y will be put on the BL list probs

>>30639823
BL is going to be so huge this gen. OU is bloated as fuck with not-Ubers and the UU mods are super banhappy. They need to either open the floodgates and accept that UU is no longer "low tier", or they're just going to keep banning stuff until BL is big enough to be its own tier.

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>volcanion is not ou
>when we have a reliable rain setter that lets him u-turn in and spam specs steam eruption

what a time to be alive

Why don't they just make OU bigger? Make it top 75 or something, 50 is way too small a number with how many pokemon we have now

>>30639440
Actually... yeah, I'm glad this happened too. I'm almost certain they were intended to be counterparts and now here they are, fighting in the same tier at last.

>>30639940
They should just ban mega evolutions and we're gucci. They're not a Gen VII mechanic anyways, so why force it down our throats when most of the players think it's a bad mechanic anyways?

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>>30639157
>>30639161
>Azumarill falls to UU
UU is going to be a play rough time.

> 181 | Slowbro-Mega | 0.18539% | 3778 | 0.386% | 2684 | 0.369%
wtf

>>30639235
>>30639161
What about Pelipper?
Hurricane spam? There's Dragonite for that.
I don't remember it being used in past gens even with rain

>>30640056
It has Drizzle this gen.

>>30640074
Wow, I didn't know that somehow.
That explains everything

>Mantine got Roost
About fucking time. I feel like I'm the only one who used Water Skarmory and it was crippled bad lacking recovery move.

What the fuck can Tapu Fini do? Apart from having a good typing and scald?

>>30640247
Good typing + Bulk + Useful abilities + Decent movepool.
What else could you even hope for?

>>30640074
>>30639440
Is there a list of changes like that?

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>>30640293

>>30639940
they don't base it on an exact number. it's anything that has above 3.41% usage makes it into the specific tier, which is how likely you are to see the pokemon at least once in 20 battles. tiers like gen 6 uu have nearing 70 pokemon.

>>30640315
>Gutting Gengar's ability
>But not Shadow Tag
What the actual fuck?

>>30639157
Wh-where's Decidueye?

its at no 71

>>30640398
In UU where it'll have a better chance of not being gibbed instantly

>>30640398
UU for now will probably settle in RU

>>30640398
Where do you you think?

>>30640443
Even that seems high to me.

I'm using one in-game and it feels like a shitmon. Gets outsped so easily, and can't take a hit. What's it supposed to do? Spirit Shackle is an okay gimmick but I doubt there's much that Decidueye wants to trap.

it has workable special def bulk and has utility moves to support the team.

check out this replay.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-492446963

non stab ice beam deals about 1/3 dmg while stab eruption deals 1/4 dmg (from tyhlosion)

not say spectacular, but its not that frail

>>30640601
His niche is as a pivot. He can spinblock, he has access to SD and some decent physical moves. Of course he can trap but it's more like an added bonus than the main attraction - Spirit Shackle is no Shadow Tag.

He also has access to Roost and can run a decent defensive set though personally I wouldn't use it.

It doesn't have a niche in OU though, too much shit can counter it. Heatran, Bisharp, Tyranitar, Weavile, Zard-X or Y. Even in UU it'll have a tough time, especially considering a bunch of stuff dropped from OU. Its bulk is only "usable", not really exceptional, and its wealth of weaknesses isn't very helpful either.

Basically, it's very mediocre over all. It can run a mixed set but there's no point when you can just go 252 Atk and forgo the crappy coverage. Its speed leaves a lot to be desired for an offensive mon and its bulk is definitely subpar - 100 SpD is good but 78 HP hurts, and 75 def means this thing basically dies to any knock off or pursuit. Couple that with the fact that it's a grass type and you get a disappointment.

I can see it being decent in RU, although even down there it has some problems.

>>30640653
The opposing player wasnt too smart desu
>Thunderpunches Decidueye

>>30640707
Makes sense, thanks.

Swords Dance seems underwhelming with its bulk, particularly with the common weaknesses in Dark, Ice, Fire and Flying. Might take out one thing, but the next thing that switches in is extremely likely to have a super effective move on it.

And Ghost/Grass is just a pretty poor offensive combo, especially when faster Ghosts are very likely to one-shot it.

>>30640806
also doesn't help many common physical walls resist both his STAB's

Does anyone know what a good last pokemon to complement a Pelipper/Ash-Greninja/Mega Metagross/Marowak-A/Koko team could be? I feel like a bulky physical attacker could do great. Band-Bulu?

| 50 | Tyranitar | 3.57611% | 35766 | 3.658% | 27936 | 3.840% |

so tyranitar might drop from ou in gen 7

>>30640806
Yeah, you're right when you say it's underwhelming. It's mostly a gimmick. Swords Dance can be pretty good if you click it at the right time, and trapping something harmless with Spirit Shackle can let you punish an opponent for being greedy or simply not switching when they should have. Further, access to Sucker Punch means that its speed hurts a little bit less.

However, all of these positives end up meaning very little because of its very vulnerable type, lackluster coverage, and overall mediocre stats, especially its poor speed. If Decidueye took 40 points from its SpA into its Speed it would jump up an entire tier. But the fact is it's not going to be doing much unless it's late-game and everything threatening is already gone - and in that case, there are dozens of Pokemon that fit the bill.

Basically it's only going to be good in low tiers where its mediocre stats are actually decent, and people will use it not because it's the meta but because they prefer it to other Pokemon.

Did mega tyranitar get nerfed?

>>30640863
When the Tapus came along it was only a matter of time. TTar could safely ignore its Fairy weakness a lot in Gen 6 but no more.

And of course it's a Pokemon used for the Sand playstyle and sand has been suffering in this early meta. No one wants to use Hippo or TTar when they just get fucked sideways by Pheromosa, Lando, Toxapex, Fini, both Greninjas... The list goes on.

Once the inital banwaves happen though I think TTar will be firmly OU. Hippo on the other hand, I don't know.

UU is gonna be a fucking joke. Lol

>>30640908
Mega ttar was never used very much because while ttar was always OU, there were other megas in OU that were more worth using for your slot, so it very rarely appeared at all

Will Greninja stay?

>>30641053
Absolutely not. Not with Protean banned.

>>30640863

Nah, people are still using the new mons at the moment to see how they work, once they get bored of the new toys they'll go back to the reliable old mons.

Stuff like Weavile, Keldeo, Thundurus etc being in UU at the moment is just early Gen weirdness, one of the Deoxys forms dropped to UU at the beginning of last gen as well, but we all know where he eventually ended up.

Come February things will be settling and Weavile and Co will be terrorizing OU once again.

>>30641168
>Weavile and Co will be terrorizing OU once again.
Am I the only one who's never had an issue with Weavile? I always laugh at the thing when it hits the field. Then again I use 3 steel types typically.

>Opponent gets Ash Greninja due to a 50/50 U-Turn
>He goes to Pelipper
>Big Burd chunks my Fini hard with a Hurricane then dies
>Ash Greninja kills Fini with a Water Shuriken
>He kills another 2 while Rain's up through OHKOs
>By the time Rain is over he's gotten himself in such a good position I'm fucked

Jesus christ that memefrog hits like a fucking truck

Jesus, people. This is a new gen, the usage stats are obviously going to be weird since everyone is trying new stuff out.

>>30641408
Except everything in OU so far was expected to be OU from the very beginning. I'd say the only one that people are curling their eyebrows at is Mantine and that's only because they still don't know that it got a HP boost and Roost. There's nothing weird about this OU

>>30641468
>Pikachu used Thundershock!
Mantine is still shit.

>>30641476
>Pokemon have weaknesses so they're shit lmao xDDDDDD

Mantine has about the same usage as Skarmory right now so you are LITERALLY proven wrong

>>30641522
>right now
It's going to drop, anon. Mantine is shit.

>>30641476
>Pikachu used Thundershock!
It can take desu.
Yes, Thunderbolt too. Yes, From Tapu Toko too.

>>30641534
How is it shit other than it being 4x weak to Electric? You'd have to make the same case for Pelliper and Gyarados as well you realize that right?

>>30640356

casuals were complaining that it doesn't make sense for it to have levitate as it's never seen actually levitating. It was cut entirely for flavor purposes.

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>Excadrill that low

Is it really going to drop from OU because of the fucking Bug/Fighting Types?

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>>30641522
>Comparing Mantine to Skarmory
Skarmory has no double weaknesses, one of the best defensive typings in the game, and a plethora of hazards and phasing shit with recovery on top of great stats.

Meanwhile Mantine's typing is much worse defensively, comes with a x4 weakness, and he has nothing good going for him besides Roost and high SPD.

tl;dr, you're retarded. Mantine will drop. It has no support moves and can't kill shit. It's just a mediocre wall that dies to electric coverage.

>>30641593
(You)

Hi. Im Dumb and new. How do people use pokemon you can't get in game yet like Rotom?

>>30641617
pokebank

>>30640247
It has great bulk, great typing for its role, and a variety of sets that are all strong.

I have yet to build a team that wouldn't be better with Tapu Fini on it. Also

>scald in Misty Terrain

>>30641593
you're right for the most part, but consired this: Skarm doesn't have Scald

>>30641608
I'm not baiting. Please tell me what possible bonuses Mantine brings to a team.

It doesn't set hazards or check anything. It's offensive presence is shit, and it's defenses are voided by any electric coverage.

Like I'm not even meme'ing here. On paper Mantine is still trash.

>>30641641
It says Pokebank isn't available yet for me?

>>30641670
showdown boi

>>30641987
?? Im confused.

>>30642021
Smogon plays on simulators, not cartridge. Simulators are allowing old Pokemon early.

>>30641593
There will always be a spot for bulky water type
Mantine has Defog, Haze and Tailwind on support end. Not to mention Scald which

>>30642072
oh.. okay :(

Naive Pheromosa or Jolly Buzzwole?

>>30642076
There are 7 Bulky Water Types in this current OU

Toxapek
Tapu Fini
Mantine
Gyrados
Manaphy
Pelipper
Kingdra

The issue is that Mantine is it's not as good a utility mon as Toxapek, Tapu Fini, and Pelipper, and it can't murder everything if it's allowed a chance to like Kingdra, Gyrados, and Manaphy

Eventually it's going to get pushed out because of not being worth it compared to your other options

>>30639157
sauce on picture

>>30641053
No, it's busted as hell. Only way I can see it staying is if the council goes full retard and decides they want to keep the meta super centralized and the power level through the roof, and they just keep Phero and Lando-I and all the broken shit in.

>>30641543
Actually, it doesn't.

252+ SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 444-528 (118.7 - 141.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That's with terrain up. Even without terrain it's almost a OHKO.

Mantine's electric type weakness is a major flaw. It's probably not going to keep it from being OU, but it's something to think about and plan for when using it. It's not a catch-all special wall.

>>30641102
Wait, Protean got banned? Literally two mons get it, and I can't remember the last time I so much as HEARD of Kecleon getting use.

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>>30639161

>Porygon-Z

Muwahahahahaha! In your face, Lucario!

>>30641579
I guarantee that when Pheromosa, Greninja, and Genesect are banned, all the sand mons (ttar, hippo, exca) will rise back up very quickly. The meta right now is extremely hostile to them.

>>30641660
In case you're not baiting and legitimately don't understand what Mantine can do, it's a special wall and defogger than can spread burns and now has reliable recovery in Roost. It is useful, even in OU, but you need to plan accordingly. Just like how you don't send in Skarmory to check a Zard-Y you have to use Mantine properly.

Of course I still think Skarm is better, if not purely because Steel is the best type in the game.

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>>30642495

WE FINALLY HIT THE BIG TIME BOIS!

>>30641361
Just use Blast Burn

>>30639161
>Porygon-Z
why though

>>30639157

>Mantine sharing a spot with Skarmory
>In OU

I would have sooner thought that a new mon would make Skarmory obsolete to allow this situation to happen than see everyone's beleaguered special wall to hit the big leagues.

>>30642573
Z-Conversion. If Porygon carries a Normalium-Z it can use Conversion to change its type and boost all of its stats (except Acc and Eva) instantly. This small boost allows it to outspeed enough things and hit hard enough that it can trigger a sweep if used at the right time, or punch through that tough wall you otherwise couldn't break.

I'd also like to point out - one of its good sets in Gen 6 UU was a Double Dance set. Now it doesn't need to take up two slots with setup and can simply use Conversion for that. It only works once, but that's all it really needs.

In particular it's good against Toxapex, which is really important in the current meta because Toxapex is basically mandatory for stall.

+1 252+ SpA Porygon-Z Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 282-332 (92.7 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

And of course Porygon's access to Recovery and Toxapex's abysmal offensive presence essentially means that Porygon-Z is a Toxapex counter. It can switch in, set up for free, and clean house. That's very valuable in a meta where Toxapex shuts a lot of things down.

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>>30639157
>>30639161

>Gengar not in sight

Is it finally over? Is the Ghost-King of OU, the sole Pokemon to remain OU from the beginning of the meta, the king no more?

>>30642845
Even if he didn't lose levitate, he'd still never be able to survive in a meta with the likes of Zygarde-C running around.

The real test will be after the quickbans are done and the meta settles down.

>>30642845
>the sole Pokemon to remain OU from the beginning of the meta, the king no more?

>what is starmie

I wouldn't put much stock into this since everyone is trying out the new mons and the real metagame hasn't been established yet. Mega Gengar is too good to not be at least OU.

>>30642881
This. The meta is very shaky and subject to change right now. Things like Hippowdon are a bit too high by being in OU but others like Pheromosa will probably go uber

>>30642845

Starmie > Gengar

>>30642674
Timid or Molest though?

>>30642924
No way my wife is getting banned.

>>30642924
Imo, Phero is easy uber and probably the next quickban. Ash Greninja should've been uber from day one. And because of Smogon's tiering policy, Greninja will go to Ubers with it. Genesect might be QB'd but it depends on how the council feels. Hoopa-U is going bye-bye as well, it basically completely invalidates Stall and once Phero, Genesect, and Greninja are gone it will run train on the tier.

Lando-I might be QB'd but I think it'll get a suspect. I bet Dugtrio and Toxapex will also get suspects.

I can also easily see Smogon banning Z-Conversion in lower tiers. It's good in OU but it's completely busted in lower tiers. Particularly LC, I think they already banned Porygon actually.

>>30642985
Aside from the fact she's very strong and many people have a hard time handling fighting her. Basic reasons to go to Ubers

>>30642947
Timid is usually what's used.

I also forgot to mention that Z-Conversion can change Porygon-Z's type to Electric if Thunderbolt is its first move, which gives it STAB on Thunderbolt, meaning it can OHKO Toxapex 100% of the time without even needing Modest or full investment in SpA.

>>30642985
Pheromosa is basically Deoxys-Roach, its stats and coverage are ridiculous for OU. it's getting banned one way or another.

>>30642996
>And because of Smogon's tiering policy, Greninja will go to Ubers with it
I'd doubt that, considering Zygarde wasn't banned to ubers with Zygarde-C.

>>30639157
>>30639161
>Pheromosa and Celesteela high OU
>Kartana is low OU
>Buzzwole not even OU at all
>Solgaleo is utterly useless
Suncucks on suicide watch.

>>30643039
This. They'd just ban Battle Bond if they needed to. And I don't think Ash Greninja is really banworthy

>>30642892
Starmie was ousted from OU in early XY because of Aegislash and Greninja

>>30643049
>| 20 | Buzzwole | 8.43791% | 75401 | 7.712% | 50767 | 6.978% |
>not OU

>>30643062
I'm not the same anon from before, I was just replying to tell you that it can't in fact take a tbolt from Tapu Koko. Stop getting so mad over 4chan posts that you lose track of the conversation.

>>30643049
Solgaleo was instantly banned from OU, that's why it's not on there.

Don't expect it to ever be tested and brought down.

>>30643049
Solgaleo is Ubers though and your version exclusive Alola form is dependent on our version exclusive Alola form to be even remotely usable.

>>30642422
But isn't the current Grenigga completely walled by Fini since it can't access Gunk Shot?

>>30643114
You can get Gunk Shot through Pokebank. This is simulator play factoring in the future release of Pokebank, anything you can bring over from previous gens is legal.

Trying to climb Pre-bank OU
Just hit 1400

What rating is the rating where you can join suspect tests?

>>30642892
Starmie did drop once back in Gen 6

>>30641168
Anon, Genesect and Proten Greninja have a higher ban chance then Phero, even Lando - I. Phero looks broken on paper, but now it's more "U-turn out" compared to the "terror" it was back in tge early meta. It's a hard hitter, but also easy to deal with once you break its momentum.
With all the Fairies around plus Electric, I doubt some old faces will return.

>>30643100
I meant Solgaleo is worthless IN Ubers.

>>30643136
There's never going to be a suspect on Pre-Bank OU so it doesn't matter.

>>30643157
Not really xerneas counter is always welcome

>>30643129
Then wouldn't that mean that we'd have essentially two different pokemon?

Protean Greninja and Battle Bond Greninja will have completely different movesets due to notutors. So might one get banned and the other left low?

>>30643149
Actually, Phero is even worse now because you can't bring in Aegislash to counter it anymore.

Marowak-A helps though.

>>30643017
Ah thanks for the info.
As the time comes, Spdef Toxapex looks like a need. Also
>Haze ;^

>>30643149
>Electric

?
Do you mean Poison or something?

>>30643105
Who the fuck even cares about those two shitmons.

uhh marowak-a on every team
checks all new stuff
suspect test pls
t. 1100 shitter

>>30642892
Starmie was UU though before Greninja got sent to Ubers though.

>>30643176
Toxapex is pretty much essential for stall, I don't really think there's a viable stall team that doesn't use Toxapex. By which I mean any stall team without Toxapex is going to be worse off than if it used it.

Which is why I think it might get suspected in the future. It's at that point where it's not broken at all but it's really annoying, centralizing, and defines a whole archetype. Sort of like Sableye-M in ORAS.

>>30643217
Just use Ttar

>>30642892
>Mega Gengar is too good to not be at least OU.
Anon, Gengar-M was banned before the meta even started. It was nearly even banned from fucking Ubers. Mega Gengar is on an entire other level, there'd be no point letting it in OU for even a second.

>>30643297

wait, what?

that means gengar already fucking won then. Who cares if his base form isn't OU yet, when his evolution is rayquaza-m tier? I felt sorry for him for one second when I thought he wasn't OU, now I find out he's fucking past OU and already uber? I'm done feeling sorry for the dude, he already won this gen, the rest is just semantics. Gengar wins every gen, now the trend continues.

>>30643017
I thought Ghost conversion was the cooler meme.

>>30643217
Marowak-A is only on every team until Tapu Koko and Pheromosa get the beat stick to Ubers.

>>30643442
They're two different Pokémon you cucklet.

>>30643049
>Buzzwole not even OU at all
It's RIGHT THERE.

| 20 | Buzzwole | 8.43791% | 75401 | 7.712% | 50767 | 6.978% |

RIGHT THERE, anon.

>>30643513
>Tapu Koko
>Ubers
Anon, Koko is broken, but it's not that broken.

>>30643513
I don't think either one will be sent to Ubers. Phero is handled too well by ghosts/bulky poisons, and Koko can't do anything to Excadrill and A-Marowak.

>>30643521

only according to smogon, not according to [spoiiler]me[/spoiler]

>| 36 | Mimikyu | 5.90094% | 68661 | 7.022% | 48339 | 6.644% |
>| 38 | Sableye-Mega | 5.65683% | 28274 | 2.892% | 24106 | 3.313% |

This is just shiny new toy syndrome, right? As much as I love the fucker I have a hard time believing he's particularly viable in OU (though he'd smash face in UU)

>>30643596
I'm talking about Mimikyu, and using Mega-Sableye as an example of something that was really powerful last gen that it's used more than

>>30640247
BULKY WATER

>>30643457
Ghost is good against Phero/Aegislash. One of those is already banned and the other will soon follow. Personally I think Electric will be the best in the future if it isn't right now.

>>30643551
CTRL+S is your friend.

>>30643513
Phero might get Uber status, but I don't think Koko will be bumped up. Maybe a suspect, but I figure there's bigger fish to fry.

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>f3 gengar
>no results

It's ogre

>>30643596
Mimkyu's ability is really damn good and might keep it from dropping too far. I doubt it will stay OU but it's certainly useable.

>>30643442
Mega Gengar != Gengar. Due to the way tiering works they're considered two different Pokemon. Gengar is not uber, Mega Gengar is. This is now "semantics", no matter how you spin it.

>>30643513
imo Koko isn't going anywhere, not at least until the later part of the gen when they run out things to suspect and people start crying for Stealth Rock or Scald suspects and shit, and they need to do something to appease them. It will get the Sableye-M treatment I bet.

>>30643596
Vaguely. Mimikyu's whole gimmick is to take a free hit and use that hit to trigger a Red Card to force a switch, particularly against sweepers with stat boosts. And it doesn't deal too bad damage in return.

Can someone explain me why Marowak is so high? What kind of role he fills?

>>30643746

he looks badass

>>30643746
He's fire type, so he can light it up whenever he wants.

>>30643746
He's a skeleton ghost so he spooks the UB and Tapus.

>>30643746
It has a god-tier type and ability that let it have 7 resistances and 3 immunities. Combine that with its decent physical bulk, access to Will-O-Wisp, and its options to deal good damage with a Thick Club or run a more defensive set, and you get a Pokemon that checks some of OU's top threats (Pheromosa, Genesect, Tapu Koko, Xurkitree, Kartana).

Also, it has a few other interesting niches. For one, it's one of the only fire-types that can't be trapped and revenge killed by Dugtrio (ghost types can't be trapped). It also has access to Bonemerang to break Subs and Mimikyu's Disguise. It can even run an offensive set with SD.. Though most people stick to the specially defensive set these days.

It seems really underwhelming at first glance but once you face it you realize it's pretty good.

>>30643543
What ghosts? Sableye? Alola-Marowak, which sees most of its usage just as a counter to Phero?

>>30643848
>7 resistances and 3 immunities
For reference, there are 18 types. Marowak resists or is immune to most types and is only weak to 5. Basically, if a Pokemon doesn't have the right coverage, Marowak-A can just hard wall it because they don't have the SE moves to break it down. A perfect example is Pheromosa - its usual set is a mix of Bug, Fighting, and Ice moves, and Marowak resists all of those and can easily kill Phero in return.

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>gen 6's true pseudo proudly reclaims the number 1 spot

Why is s/he so perfect?

>>30643850
A-Wak sees its usage because it walls a lot of top threats currently.

>>30643903
it was banned lol

>>30643903
It got a quick ban, IIRC. Or something among those lines. Either way, it's uber now.

>>30643901
I thought Phero usually ran Poison jab for coverage? I see Buzzwole a lot with Ice Punch tho

>>30643848

chandelure can do all of those things minus having electric immunity. What makes marowak so much better than chandelure? Or is that seriously it and being physical rather than special?

>>30643940
Ghost resists Poison anyway, so it doesn't matter.

>>30643942
Marowak can hit harder.
And the Electric immunity.

>>30643942
Ground coverage with Bonemerang, with multiple frail electric type sweepers. Same with Lightningrod being such a good ability with the current roster.

>>30643903
>giving a regular pokemon essentially 720 BST and the best typing in the game

who the fuck thought this was a good idea

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>Garchomp and Aegislash still aren't Uber only

Fuck Smogon

>>30644007
>Garchomp and Aegislash still aren't Uber only
Aegislash is uber though. And there's been nothing wrong with Garchomp since gen4 ended.

>Landorus forms are still everywhere
God
Fucking
Damnit

>>30643942
Lightningrod gives it an immunity Chandelure doesn't have, which is particularly important because as you can see, Tapu Koko is very common.

Additionally, it has Ground coverage that's not Hidden Power and can break subs. Additionally, the threats it checks are mostly physical attackers that Chandelure can't necessarily handle - except Koko, to which Chandelure isn't immune thanks to a lack of Lightningrod anyway.

It also has the option to run SD, while Chandelure doesn't have access to NP - the best it can do is Calm Mind or run a Specs set.

Basically, it's actually not that much better than Chandelure, it just happens to be in the right meta at the right time.

If Marowak-A were really that powerful or centralizing, Hydreigon would rise to OU. But it's not, it's a good Pokemon and checks some other good Pokemon but it's not so great that it needs to be planned for on every team.

>>30643848
Then why doesn't chandelure see more use :^)

>>30644076
see
>>30644066

Also because of new toy syndrome, honestly. People are more willing to try a new Pokemon in OU than they are a known UU Pokemon.

>>30643226
Idk man. As a lot of counters for Toxapex are the top tier usage right now, unlike undying Blissey. Toxapex its either you take your precautions and do your move or neglect the pokemon and get stalled

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>>30643993
Hey now GF weren't completely crazy. They took away steels dark and ghost resistances. Things could have been much worse.

>>30644030

Why is it on the list? Did it just recently get banned?

Chomp is too strong in the meta because the lack of ice types and the incredible type coverage and movepool it has

>>30644099
And it was damn bullshit for every other Steel type.

>>30644109
>fairies are everywhere
>BUT WE NEED MORE ICE TYPES

>>30644109
Just wait till bank.

>>30644097
>unlike undying Blissey
Are you really trying to say Blissey is better than Toxapex? That's not even close to true, Blissey dies to basically any competent physical attacker and is setup bait, the twave nerf only hurts it and many of the top threats can destroy it easily. Meanwhile Toxapex hard walls a lot of the meta, has a far better type, can set hazards, is immune to Toxic, and it even has Regenerator. Only thing Blissey can do better is use Wish and Heal Bell.

> Toxapex its either you take your precautions and do your move or neglect the pokemon and get stalled
I agree with this. Toxapex is a lot like M-Sableye, it's so beefy and resilient that basically you can either break it or you can't. If you can't, you've already lost as soon as team preview happens. This is unhealthy for the meta because matchup-based games are not what Smogon aims to have (see previous suspects), so I can see it being suspected in the future.

>>30642490

>imfuckingplying anyone is gonna leave in or switch in Mantine while Koko is out

It's almost like you can't base a Pokemon's viability entirely on simple 1v1 match ups in a 6v6 setting you dummy.

>>30644109
It's on the list because the stats are from before it was banned. The stats represent the meta last month, not currently.

>Chomp is too strong in the meta because the lack of ice types

You don't have to be ice-type to run an ice-type move. The unbiquity of the Tapus and Phero help keep it in check.

>>30639157
>| 1 | Aegislash | 30.22708% | 173842 | 17.780% | 129367 | 17.782% |
Is it in the game?
>>30639157
>| 4 | Landorus-Therian | 18.73396% | 110446 | 11.296% | 93666 | 12.875% |
>| 25 | Venusaur-Mega | 7.50924% | 47185 | 4.826% | 35835 | 4.926% |
>| 7 | Genesect | 16.69058% | 80167 | 8.199% | 66293 | 9.112% |

How? Are they using post bank movesets as well.

>>30644223
Yes, I know that, read the thread man. Mantine is definitely OU viable and probably won't drop imo, but it can't handle electric type moves like the poster I replied to was asserting.

Obviously a good player would switch it out or not get it in that position, that's what playing the game is about. Stop getting so mad and assuming I'm saying all sorts of things which I'm not. I'm not even the guy from earlier in the conversation.

>>30642532
Get back in NU, Delphox.

>>30644245
>Are they using post bank movesets as well.
Yes. Everything is post-bank, they figure that waiting for bank to use bank stuff made no sense when all that does is keep the meta in chaos longer. Implementing it early gives the meta more time to settle down and more time for usage stats to let lower tiers form.

>>30644245

It's Pokebank OU. None of those concerns matter.

>>30644233

Chomp is faster than the Tapus besides koko

and koko is electric/fairy

>>30641565
>for it to have levitate as it's never seen actually levitating. I
>mimikyu's trail.

>>30644304

>tfw it levitates in its leaked walking animations

>>30643457
>>30643017
that's also one of its advantages

until you conversion your opponent has absolutely no idea what type your porygon is limited the amount of viable counterplays. Something that threatens electric porygon might not be particularly keen on a ghost type and heck you can even postpone the boost for a turn if you think your opponent is being cheeky and using a ghost move

that said its a damn shame we can't change move order during battle, imagine the sheer amount of bullshit that would bring

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>>30643700
>red card
>not life orb
The fuck are you doing?

Whatever happens I plan to stick with this guy. I love it too much, I have to karenfag.

>>30644284
Do you seriously think anyone would just leave their chomp out against a tapu? The tapus that all have a fairy move? Fini even gets Ice Beam.

>>30644197
Oh no, im talking about previous gens I may be a retard and the only one having problems with it

For the other argument. Welp, thats how the meta always ends up.
But if we are talking about a staller meta problem, i think Celesteela takes the spot better. Now thats bullshit levels of walling

>>30644284
>Leaving a Dragon out against a Fairy
I'm a filthy casual and I know this is retarded.

What's your excuse?

>>30639174
>Just to clarify, anything not on this list doesn't make OU by usage, however that necessarily doesn't mean they're unviable in OU.

Can I just say this is the most retarded dumbshit way to name competitive tiers when you have to make that distinction?

>>30644284
Speed isn't the issue here. The Tapus are strong enough to take out the bulky chomp sets which are so common, and the bulky sets aren't strong enough to break them too well. And if you run an offensive set, you take even more damage because you still can't OHKO the tapus anyway. Let me show you some calcs.

>Offensive Fini vs. Offensive Chomp
252 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 288-338 (80.6 - 94.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Poison Jab vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 203-239 (71.9 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

>Defensive Chomp vs. Offensive Fini
0 Atk Garchomp Poison Jab vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 128-152 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(fini outspeeds that set btw)

>Defensive Chomp vs. Koko
252 SpA Tapu Koko Moonblast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 288-338 (69 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Koko outspeeds, so it can even revenge kill Chomp)

>Defensive Chomp vs. Bulu
0 Atk Garchomp Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 256-304 (74.4 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 256-303 (61.3 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
>Offensive Chomp vs. Defensive Bulu
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Bulu: 296-354 (86 - 102.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
(this is probably the best one of all for Chomp, but remember, Grassy Terrain still cuts Garchomp's EQ to 50 BP later on and neuters its sweep potential)

>Chomp vs. Lele
252+ SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 390-462 (109.2 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

remember that Lele often runs scarf, so Chomp just gets fucked over immediately

TL;DR it's not as cut and dry as you think. Chomp IS threatened by the Tapus.

Dumb question, but will Torkoal and/or Gigalath see more usage post bank? Both seem like solid Sunny Day/Sand Storm users respectively.

I just find it strange how Pelipper IMMEDIATELY went OU, and how Torkoal and Gigalath haven't moved at all.

>>30644390
>tfw old enough to remember gen 3 skarmbliss

fuck that fat pink bitch. basically forcing you to use dugtrio or some stupid mixed attacker or get stalled to death

>>30644284
Anon, Garchomp might have a good HP stat and defenses that can make it a tanky mon and also hit hard enough. But it gets blown out by all the Tapus. Bulu can crush it with a Wood Hammer, Koko can just use HP Ice, Lele absolutely murders it with a Moonblast and Fini can just use Ice Beam. Bulu in particularly walls it hard since Garchomp can't hit it with any of its STAB. Yeah you could use Poison Jab, but on a predicted switch, if it lands a crit its goodnight land shark.

>>30644524
>tyranitar running special attacks just to get by skarmory

those were strange times

that said it was a better metagame than the previous 2 which were "psychic: the game" and "who's prepared for curselax better"

>>30644390
The only good thing about Celesteela is at least it's predictable. Turn 1 is always seeds.

>>30644284
Another thing I forgot to mention: Chomp cannot reliably beat the tapus without running Poison Jab. So it's forced to run that move in one of its slots, forgoing other options like mixed attacking, Sub+SD with both of its STABs or with Rocks, etc.

>>30644524
>tfw old enough to remember gen 2 stallwars

>>30644524
What even made skarmbliss end anyway? I've completely forgotten.

>>30644421
No, actually it makes a lot of sense. If a Pokemon is OU it literally just means that it's used a certain amount. Any Pokemon that's not Ubers can be used in OU. People just forget that sometimes, because it tends to be that usage and viability heavily correlate. It makes complete sense but it sometimes forgotten in the unstable days of the early meta, where hidden things that are actually good might be waiting below the usage cutoff.

Besides, it's way better than the alternative, which would be to determine tiers by some arbitrary tier listing system, which is completely retarded and subjective. Viability rankings can change multiple times a week.

>>30644573
it was still prevalent in gen 4, but as alternative walls came out skarmory faded away, magnezone's trapping abilities also didn't help, especially because unlike dugtrio, it was threatening in its own right
and course what killed bliss was evolite

Guys, I dont understand. Why are Skarmory, Mantine and Pelipper up there? They are all flying, so I theorize its some sort of counter

>>30644630
>Skarmory
You want rocks? Too bad, have rocks anyway.
>Pelipper
MAKE IT RAIN
>Mantine
That one I don't actually know, beyond now having roost.

>>30644559
>tfw when old enough to remember Gen1's TobyBro, Parasyrex, and all those Pokemon who's movesets were basically Double Team/Sword's Dance/Swift/Rest

Thinking back, Gen 1 was fucking horrible. Even worse than the mess we're in now. Gen 3 and 4 probably had the best Metas.

>>30644573
>Magnezone trapping Skarmory meant it was far more vulnerable
>Physical/special split meant that more Pokemon ran mixed sets or could run one or the other, and gave more Pokemon more options meaning the pure dichotomy of the physical and special walls was less effective as a core (good example is Gyarados)
>Better fighting-type moves like Close Combat, Drain Punch, and Superpower were either introduced or got a wider distro, making some fighting types more viable and harming Blissey in the process
>Focus Blast and Aura Sphere meant that Blissey was no longer effectively completely immune to special moves (Specs Lucario actually 2hkos standard Blissey)
>New Pokemon either countered Blissey or used her as Taunt bait e.g. Electivire, Gliscor
>Better walls in different roles led to a more diverse stall archetype and made the monolithic wall core fall out of style

>>30644630
Skarmory has a god-tier type, can set Stealth Rock no matter what and even stack spikes, has good defensive and offensive sets, reliable recovery, it can use Whirlwind to shut down setup, it gets Defog, did I mention its amazing type? This thing is permanent OU barring some huge power jump or massive new mechanic that relegates it.

>Mantine
It got a boost to its bulk and access to Roost. Couple this with its already good special bulk, new toy syndrome, the prevalence of rain, and the ability of Dugtrio to trap and kill its electric-type foes, and you get an unexpected OU mon.

>Pelipper
It has drizzle now and it's a far better setter than Politoed ever was. It can spam Hurricane with 100% accuracy, has U-Turn, and can even use Defog. It also has great synergy with Tapu Koko, letting it spam Thunder and nuke everything. That being said it might drop, it's still just a Pelipper after all, and weather isn't as good as it used to be.

>>30644679

new gen 1 (basically gen 1, post gen 1 era) with wrap/evasion banned and modern clauses is pretty fun IMO. Agree that gen 3 and 4 are the best.

>>30644775
Understood. Thats amazing. What about Porygon Z?

>>30644858
Z-conversion
it boosts all its stats by +1 which gives porygon-z just enough combination of speed and power to plow its way through half the metagame, while it also gains a surprising amount of bulk meaning its incredibly difficult to revenge kill

>>30644630
God I hate Pelippers.

I've been trying to grind up some hatchlings next to the battle tree, and I swear, 80% of battles are Pelippers. I just use Dark Lariat on them, but they're so fucking ugly and obnoxious.

I wish I could exterminate them off the face of the planet, with their giant "my mouth is my sternum" face-bodies.

>>30644858
see
>>30642674

It got a powerful new toy and works as a great anti-meta mon right now.

>>30639940

as power creep progresses, OU will look more and more like users from older gens and lower tiers will start looking like the tiers above them from older gens. it's probably better to accept OU as it is and play UU if you don't like the OU metagame

>>30644895>>30644906

Thank you!

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Does this team get wrecked in OU? I haven't got movesets written down but you can assume I believe.

>>30644510
Not the same guy but
>Tapu Koko Moonblast

>>30639940
It's not restricted by a number of Pokemon, it's restricted by usage percentage. Theoretically if everyone used really varied teams and the game was well-balanced, OU could have hundreds of Pokemon.

That being said power creep is a big problem in Pokemon and it's only getting worse. OU this gen is basically Ubers lite right now, it might even be that bad after the QBs are done. Meanwhile UU is basically OU in terms of power level, and RU is where "low-tier" starts.

It's no mistake that each gen so far has seen a new tier form at the bottom (NU, PU, FU). The tiers slide down every gen to make room for the new powerful shit at the top.

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>>30643157

>>30644976
Oh fug, I didn't even realize it doesn't get that.
even still, HP ice nearly OHKOs

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>>30644902
And I abuse pelippers to the core. Come at me bro

>>30640339
>it's anything that has above 3.41% usage makes it into the specific tier, which is how likely you are to see the pokemon at least once in 20 battles.

which is just as arbitrary as top 50 IMO.

the whole reason they came up with that number is they just guessed that on average you will have 20 battles a day and so you're more likely than not to see it at least once. There's literally no reason it can't be 5% or 2% other than tradition.

>>30641565
>Magnezone line still doesn't have levitate
fucking gamefreak

Feels good seeing Decidueye is going to be an OU staple.

Best defoger in OU, and can do a ton of damage in return.

>>30644269
Delphox is RU, and actually really good in that tier.

>>30644957
I'm just gonna give you a prognosis on each mon.

>Minior
Actually a really good cleaner. If it survives the first turn it does crazy amounts of work. There are some things that give it problems but its great ability and access to Shell Smash mean it's probably useable in OU, and definitely viable in lower tiers.

>Araquanid
It has like three abilities at once, so that's great. But besides that ability it doesn't have too much going for it - it has some weaknesses that really hurt and in particular, Tapu Koko is a problem for it. And as you can see from the stats Koko is very common. It doesn't really have a place on any competitive OU team, but it could maybe get by with the right support.

>Magnezone
Easy OU, great trapper and wallbreaker, just keep it far away from EQ.

>Ninetales-A
Has no place on serious competitive OU teams. Hail got some new toys this gen but they aren't enough to make it any good. Aurora Veil is a fun gimmick until you realize it isn't permanent and still takes a turn. Nasty Plot is a fun set but ultimately you're better off not using this in OU, there are better options available and hail isn't any good.

>Dhelmise
I've only seen this a few times. It's better than I expected it to be, but it's still not really OU material. It has a plethora of harmful weaknesses, and its mediocre bulk (for OU) plus its abysmal speed, PLUS the fact that it has no recovery (not even leech seed) mean it's not going to be tanking too much. It may hit some things like a truck but there are things in OU that do that way faster, harder, and better. Its only niche is Rapid Spin, and in the age of Defog you're better off using something else for that.

>Mudsdale
A really underrated Pokemon, it's a very good physical wall and can dole out ok damage as well. Too bad that it completely lacks setup, lacks recovery to make up for the HP it sacrifices to boost, and can't handle special moves as well. Will probably be a lot better in tiers that aren't OU.

>>30645169
>>Mudsdale
The fact that this guy doesn't get Slackoff pisses me off. It could have been easy OU if only it got some kind of recovery move outside of Rest.

Same with Bewear. When that thing gets Drain Punch it'll be OU overnight.

>>30641102
>Protean banned
but this is wrong

>>30645309
It bugs me that Mudsdale is in the same egg group of Hippowdon, but it can't get either Slack Off nor Stealth Rock.

>>30642881
at least I can claim that the king was only brought low by GF's fucking retarded "balancing"

If I knew Japanese I'd tweet asking them to reverse the change, saying that after 6 gens it hurts to have my bro changed. Call it autism, but it's actually a bummer to have your favorite nerfed for no reason.

>>30641617
Battle sims

>>30644130
Come now steel before the nerf was resistant to more than half the types available...and still is actually. Plus it got a fairy resistance/effectiveness as compensation

>>30644130
>Steel actually has things neutral against it instead of stonewalling like 13 types

Boo fucking Hoo. Steel is a bullshit type. The only thing I hate more than it is Steel/Fairy.

>>30642845
Gengar dropped in gen3 for a while.

>>30644957
I generally agree with >>30645169

Minior was in prebank OU for a reason. Besides the SS set, it can also work as a decent suicide lead.
Araquanid has potential, but there's a lot of electric in the current meta.
Celesteela and Skarmory are OU, which means Magnezone is OU. The attacking Celesteela set runs Flamethrower, not that it's a common set.
Ninetales is too frail, especially in this Steel-heavy meta.
Dhelmise has a weird role, he's a spinner+spinblocker/trapper with decent coverage. Though his typing is somewhat unfortunate. His best use would probably be to trap Excadrill, but then Excadrill still outspeeds, so it's weird.
Mudsdale is nice, but OU is full of SpAttackers as usual.

>>30639161
Magnezone is my fucking bro, but is it only here due to trapkilling Skarmory and Steel Waifu?

>>30645786
It traps Scizor, too.

>>30645378
なんでサン&ムーンにゲンガーの特性は「のろわれボディ」? 「ふゆう」の方が有用。… 誰得? 私は答えを求める!

Why is Gengar's ability in Sun & Moon "Cursed Body"? "Levitate" is more useful. ...Who benefits from this? I demand answers!

>>30645821
Right,so it's mainly there to take out these three? Are any of its other non-trap sets, like Scarf and life orb, any good? I knew Specs is the standard set

>>30645875
Magnezone is still offensively good, but it does best at trapping steels.

>>30645854
I legitimately have no idea why they picked Gengar of all things to nerf. Its not even that popular in VGC, which is gamefreaks baby, and i dont think gamefreak pays much attention to singles.

This is a 1 step forward 2 steps back for Gengar; on one hand it benefits from psychic and grassy terrain and absorbs tspikes, but on the other hand it now dies to earthquake which everything runs

>>30644197
Chan/Blissey are way more obnoxious than Toxapex.
> Blissey dies to basically any competent physical attacker
Granted they have enough attack to get past its massive hp and even then some might carry Counter as a lure.
>and is setup bait
Toxic/T-Wave
Toxapex has 0 offensive presence besides hoping for a scald burn or using toxic, Sey however can deal a solid 100 damage so frail, recovery less physical attackers can't safely switch in many times and Substitutes are useless unless the user has maxed 100 hp.
Sey completely negates 90% of special attackers and makes the user's win condition pretty much into "remove physical attackers" then he automatically wins.
> Toxapex is a lot like M-Sableye, it's so beefy and resilient that basically you can either break it or you can't. If you can't, you've already lost as soon as team preview happens.
Toxapex is dealt with by Ground, Psychic and Electric types, both physical and special and they are everywhere in this meta. Even after they inevitably ban shit like Landorus I, Xurkitree and Tapu Lele they will still be around with stuff like Lando-T, Metagross and Tapu Koko.

>>30645875
Magnezone is good in its own right but its main niche is trapping steels. If you want a strong offensive Electric type there's Tapu Koko, Xurkitree, smogonwash, Zapdos, and other things with electric coverage. If you want something just to fuck over steels (but not trap) then there's Heatran and others. Mangezone meanwhile is the only OU-viable Magnet Pull user and trapping as a tactic only gets stronger with each generation.

>>30645917
So its standard set seems to mainly run tbolt, vswitch, hpfire, and flash cannon. What item works best for it? I've not been playing much, but when I do I only run specs to kill skarm and celesteela asap. Im interested in its other options

>>30645983
Scarf or specs are good, depending on what you want out of it.

>>30646004
Alright, that was what I was narrowing it down to as well. Why wouldn't you recommend life orb, out of curiosity?

>>30645976
So do you think it will be a solid OU player this gen? I know it was about to fall off towards the end in gen 6

>>30645963
>Even after they inevitably ban shit like ... Xurkitree and Tapu Lele
Lol

>>30646042
As long as Celesteela remains a viable Pokemon, yeah.

>>30646042
>So do you think it will be a solid OU player this gen?
Yes, absolutely, especially with steels like Celesteela and Scizor around. Like I said, as more Pokemon are introduced with each generation but the max amount of Pokemon remains 6, it becomes harder to plan for every eventuality and it becomes ever more important to keep every possible Pokemon alive. Trapping lets you take at least one Pokemon out, nigh-guaranteed. That's a really powerful ability and it's only going to get better over time.

Ironically though, Magnezone itself is vulnerable to being trapped by Dugtrio. Dugtrio is one of the most useful Pokemon of all this gen for many reasons, and that might harm its usage a bit. Nevertheless though, I think it will definitely stay OU barring some massive shakeup like new tutor moves or an event pushing it into Ubers or crowding it out of OU or something.

>>30646078
You laugh now but after the more broken shit gets banned Xurkitree will absolutely get banned. It has too many sets including Z-Hypnosis, Scarf, Sub TG, or TG+3 moves and it can deal with stall even if running some meme item like shed shell to survive Dugtrio stall.

Also Tapu Lele is ridiculous and has 0 switch ins except for maybe AV Magearna. The thing is people for some reason run Specs instead of LO so they are dealt with more easily if they guess the switch in wrong.

>>30646144
>Smogon is going to ban something that has more than 2 obvious builds that play similarly to each other and have similar counters.
Sounds about right.

>>30646144
I think Xurkitree is far too average in everything aside from Special Attack. Same reason Porygon Z was never a big thread in previous metas despite it's huge Sp. Attack. I've never had a problem with Xurkitree unless it was running a scarf. And even then, it's locked into one move so it's easy to deal with, and it's shitty defenses make it hard to keep swapping in and out.

Tapu Lele, on the other hand, is ridiculously good. That thing almost always gives me trouble. It hits like a fucking truck and takes quite a bit of damage before going down. I wonder if it'll eventually get banned...

I love people who lead with a-marowak
>Espeon used shadow ball

>>30646102
>>30646113
Those are good points. Although if Celesteela leaves and Magnezone falls to UU, how do you think it will perform in SM UU? Will it perform well down there like Nape and Gyarados, or will it get the boot up to BL?

>>30646248
Considering they all shit on Smogon's precious life support playstyle that they want to keep viable despite it being unviable for decades without any effort whatsoever and without being punished by guessing switch ins wrong unlike specs Hoopa then yes.

That's the thing, Hoopa got raped by offense, same as Xurkitree but Xurk is safer.
On the contrary when it came to banning for offense, stall could deal with Greninja just fine by running either P2 or Chansey however offense had to absolutely run a Greninja and a Greninja "counter"

It will take a while but Xurk will definitely get banned.

>>30645963
First, I want to be clear on something: for serious competitive teams, Blissey is irrelevant in OU. Its little sister Chansey is much more popular, so let's not pretend that Blissey is going to be a problem in OU anytime soon and start comparing it to Toxapex which has clearly demonstrated it's OU viable.

Now, let me address your points: Chansey absolutely is weak to physical attacks, its Defense stat is six times worse than Sunkern's and even with that massive HP stat, its effective physical bulk is well below average. Furthermore it has a weakness to Knock Off in its reliance on Eviolite for added bulk. Meanwhile Toxapex is extremely bulky on both sides even though it has a pretty low HP stat.

Second, you claim that Chansey isn't setup bait because it can run Toxic or t-wave, but the fact remains that many threats are immune to one or both of these (SD Gliscor comes to mind). Seismic Toss is not going to save it from things that can simply break through its paper thing physical defenses. Meanwhile Toxapex has fewer vulnerabilities because of its better defensive typing, immunity to poison, and mixed bulk.

Chansey does not completely invalidate special attackers either, believe it or not. It's still weak to setup and can still fall prey to some users of fighting-type special moves - though obviously Chansey is still a stellar special wall, that's not up for debate.

>Toxapex is dealt with by Ground, Psychic and Electric types
This is not a universal truth, and even if it were, what about all the other Pokemon? It would be more accurate to say that Toxapex can't be broken by anything that ISN'T one of those types, which really narrows the field. Just as you said Chansey can be used as a wincon, so can Toxapex.

And at the same time, Toxapex is more versatile. It can stack tspikes. It can use Baneful Bunker to punish contact attackers. It has access to Haze to stop setup, it has Regenerator which helps massively. I have no doubt that pex is more viable.

>>30641102
retard

What the fuck do I use as a Spinner/Defogger in prebank OU? I would use Peli, but he can't get it yet. What else is there?

>>30646339
>Magnezone falls to UU
If this happens, I suspect it will be even better there than it is in OU. There aren't as many steels but now you have a disproportionately powerful Pokemon entering a tier where it never used to belong. That's always a good thing for that Pokemon's prospects... unless it's an edge case like Quagsire jumping from NU to OU back to NU.

I think that the answer to your question depends on what else drops along with it, as well as what gets banned to BL and what doesn't. If OU as a meta is just a baby right now, then UU is like an undeveloped fetus. It's impossible to predict where it would be.

>>30639620
Mostly Special, a few Physical ones though.

>>30646444
Tapu Fini, Kartana

>>30646444
The mons that get it are Dhelmise, Tsareena, Torkoal, Starmie, and Coldsteel. Make your own decision.

>>30646444
Tentacruel and Starmie for spinning.

Tapu Fini, Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Dragonite, Scizor, and Aerodactyl for defog.

>>30642311
>Kingdra
>Bulky Water
It's a Rain Wallbreaker you goofball.

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>A-Dugtrio has a great typing to counter Koko, Toxapex, Lele
>it loses arena trap for tangling hair meme

Goddamn it.

>>30646378
>Now, let me address your points: Chansey absolutely is weak to physical attacks, its Defense stat is six times worse than Sunkern's and even with that massive HP stat, its effective physical bulk is well below average.
The effective hp on the physical side is around the same as normal Swampert, a Pokemon with 100/90 bulk maybe a little less than it but still
>252+ Atk Manaphy Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 159-187 (24.7 - 29.1%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
>252+ Atk Manaphy Waterfall vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 93-111 (23.1 - 27.6%) -- 72.5% chance to 4HKO
>Furthermore it has a weakness to Knock Off in its reliance on Eviolite for added bulk.
True, but even after knocked off it still sports a massive amount of specially defensive effective hp.
For the record no uninvested physical attacker can break through Chansey so bulky physical walls are off the table to break through it.
>Second, you claim that Chansey isn't setup bait because it can run Toxic or t-wave, but the fact remains that many threats are immune to one or both of these (SD Gliscor comes to mind).
Yet Toxapex also loses to SD Gliscor, other set up sweepers that can abuse its typing like NP Thundurus and a substitute will pretty much remove it from the equation most of the time.
>Seismic Toss is not going to save it from things that can simply break through its paper thing physical defenses.
Chansey's Seismic Toss won't beat a physical sweeper in a 1v1 situation but on the switch it will either force it to heal or limit its turns dealing damage.
>Meanwhile Toxapex has fewer vulnerabilities because of its better defensive typing, immunity to poison, and mixed bulk.
Toxapex is weaker to more types though, and don't fool yourself Chansey also minds status as little as Toxapex does even if Tox is immune to poison, Chansey can simply switch out one turn and just switch back again..

>>30647267
>Chansey does not completely invalidate special attackers either, believe it or not. It's still weak to setup and can still fall prey to some users of fighting-type special moves
That's why I said 90% of them. Stuff like Keldeo can bust through it but set up sweepers better have Psyshock or not miss those Focus Blasts otherwise they'll get Paralyzed or Toxic'd and then eventually stalled out or revenge killed on the switch. Even then in the best possible conditions they absolutely need at least 3 turns to deal with Chansey.
>This is not a universal truth, and even if it were, what about all the other Pokemon? It would be more accurate to say that Toxapex can't be broken by anything that ISN'T one of those types, which really narrows the field. Just as you said Chansey can be used as a wincon, so can Toxapex.
In Toxapex's case it's "Remove anything that can use ground/psychic/electric moves" in Chansey's case is "Remove Knock off users, invested physical attackers, Psyshock users that can boost, Keldeo"
Both of them get universally fucked by trappers/taunt so I'm not including that shit in the countdown.

>>30647291
>And at the same time, Toxapex is more versatile. It can stack tspikes. It can use Baneful Bunker to punish contact attackers. It has access to Haze to stop setup, it has Regenerator which helps massively. I have no doubt that pex is more viable.
Toxic Spikes is an awful move that will waste you turns, use Toxic instead. Baneful Bunker is also bad, you want your target to be either Toxic'd or burnt, them getting normal poison will prevent anything worse from happening. Haze is viable but useless vs set up attackers that have coverage to hit it for SE damage.
>252 Atk Charizard-Mega-X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 118-140 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
>+1 252 Atk Charizard-Mega-X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 176-208 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And yes Regenerator is pretty much the one thing carrying it in OU, giving it a lot more effective hp in battle. But at the end of the day it doesn't compare to Chansey's bulk.
And even then they are both more or less equally versatile.
For Toxapex's Toxic Spikes Chansey gets Stealth Rock, for punishing physical attackers Chansey gets Counter, for punishing set up sweeps Chansey gets Thunder Wave and it can heal up status conditions just by switching

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>>30639157
>Landorus-T: 18.7%
>Landorus: 17.5%

Aren't these the same Pokemon, effectively? I don't think you can run both.

So shouldn't Landorus be 36.2%, aka higher than Aegislash? Why isn't Landorus banned?

>>30647425
You can't run both at the same time, it's the same 'species.'

It *is* a different forme, though, and one you have to change outside of battle.

>>30642674

>Set up for Free
>Toxapex used Haze!

I love idiots who think setting up on Toxapex is a thing.

>>30647425
yeah but they do different things and cant change inbattle so theyre separate

>>30647516
That's why you run Taunt support.

Taunt the Toxapex, swtich to special sweeper that won't care if it gets burned on the switch, set up, sweep.

There's a guy who has a raging boner for toxapex in this thread, ffs

>>30646270
it's all fine and good untill you meet fucking Specs Xurktree.
Jesus christ that thing fucking hurt.
>switch to buru if he tried to hidden power
>Energy ball
>sure even with grassy terrain it's not supposed to-
>50% damage
>what the fuck-
>S.DEF Drop
>oh please NO
>switch to Marowak
>Energy ball
>52%
>jesus fucking CHRIST
>go for bonemerang for the kill, gotta kill it fast
>another energy ball
>CRITICAL HIT

Megagross and Ash-Greninja saved my game later, but jesus christ with specs it's hit too hard.

>>30647542
>>30647469
Still, the fact that one species has an effective 36% usage rate is pretty insane, no? But I never hear about it being suspected, it's always Phero, Toxapex, Koko

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>>30647632
I know I do

>>30647684
being the same species mechanically isnt important
all deoxys, all arceus, shaymins, etc, because theyre not the same, dont get treated the same

and iirc lando i was banned for quite a while last gen

>>30647684
The genies are a meme for a reason fampai.

>>30639157
Tapu bulu and up just ban them now

>>30642144
Stick to Facebook and you tubers, kid.

>Literally Genies, Tapus, and UBs: The Tier.

Gen 7's power creep has finally ruined whatever vestige of fun was left in OU. Gone are the days where you could actually build a usable competitive team with your bros. Now OU is little more than just "Little League Ubers."

UU is the way of the future.

>>30639190
Mantine got huge buffs, it got a bunch of base HP (along with its already massive special defense) and gets Roost now, making it fantastically bulky.

>>30647425
its not banned because muh lion
even when it was on 50% of teams it wasn't banned
i dont understand why its okay when the most obnoxious defensive mon with the same set is on every team.

>>30648046
Enjoy ZardY and Keldeo
t. UU player

>>30648063
I'll take those over genies and Tapus any day.

>>30641476
>140 base Sp.D
no

>>30641617
They use Pokemon Showdown, an online simulator.

>>30647675
So you were unprepared and had bad luck with it...and now you think it's banworthy?

You'd fit in perfectly on Smogon's council.

>>30639572

But that's Tyranitar at a whopping 50th place.

>>30644053
BAN GENIES
BAN TAPUS
BAN UBs
GET THIS SHIT THE FUCK OUT OF HERE HOLY CHRIST

THIS ISNT TAPUS AND ULTRA BEASTS THE GAME + MAROWAK, IT'S FUCKING POKEMON, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

>>30643746
Hard counters all of the relevant UBs (Nihilego isn't that great and Guzzlord is a shitmon) while also hittling like a truck thanks to thicc club.

It also has a good matchup against every Tapu except Tapu Fini and can fuck up Tapu Koko thanks to Lightningrod.

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>>30648046
OU has been "Little League Ubers" since Gen 5 you big fucking baby

>>30648314
>BAN GENIES
>BAN TAPUS
>BAN UBs
>GET THIS SHIT THE FUCK OUT OF HERE HOLY CHRIST
That's why UU exists. OU isn't the only tier.

>>30648364
BUT LAD I WANT TO USE CHARIZARD, AND IT'S TOO STRONG FOR UU.

So when should we expect Bewear to get Drain punch?

>>30639157
>Top Kek
>Toxic Pecs
what do they mean by this?

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>>30648412
>Top Kek and Top Lel in the same tier

Literally the meme gen. I want off this ride

>>30648398
Zard Y dropped.

>>30645691

That's because it didn't exist in RS 200

>>30648409
Stars

Then it'll move up to OU.

>>30648452
THERE HE IS THERE HE GOES AGAIN

>>30644513
Torkoal is better than Ninetails in every way, but neither will see much use.

There's no reason to run Gigalith over Hippowdon or Ttar.

>>30648409
next year at the earliest
for now its gotta wait and pray like chesnaught had to

>>30648335
Up until ORAS it was manageable. Now with SM's latest power creep OU has finally gone off the deep end.

Reminder that it's too early to determine final tier placements or anything. At the start of XY things like Keldeo and Latias were UU by usage too after the first month. Once shiny new toy syndrome wears off, the banning of le momentume buges, and the unreleased megas return, the old favourites will start trickling back into OU

>>30648809
Thanks for your help captain obvious.
Wouldn't have figured it without your help.

>>30648809
OU won't be playable until Smogon pulls its head out of its ass, sets up a "Borderline Uber" tier, and banishes the fucking genies and Tapus there.

>>30648998
genies yes

tapus no, you can thank new toy syndrome for them being everywhere

they need at least another month or two of use, whereas everybody has known since gen 5 that the genies are BL Uber

>>30648769
OU went to hell right around the time the Genies and Musketeers were released in Gen 5. Where the hell have YOU been?

If you were familiar with the game towards the tail end of Gen 5, none of this would be surprising you right now.

>>30643114
HP Electric Greninja is pretty common nowadays, an excellent lure for Mantine, Toxapex and friends. Tapu Fini included.

>>30643174
That's what will happen..protean greninja in ubers while ash-greninja in ou

>>30646296
>Marowak lives
>Marowak used Shadow Bone!

>>30649621
I didn't start playing competitive until X/Y, as I initially skipped Gen V. The genies were always cancer, but up until ORAS I never really had problems building an OU team without any legendaries on it. Now in SM it seems impossible.

>>30650026
Well that makes sense. Gen V was a pretty shitty Meta anyway...especially coming from Gens 3 and 4 which both had some of the best metas in the franchise.

I've personally never had a problem with using Legendaries on a team. The only reason the Genies are so shitty is because you're almost required to run one of them on a team if you hope to win. I don't think that's ever been the case with any other set of Legendaries, not even the Musketeers were that bad.

I also don't think the Tapus will overcentralize the meta. They're good at laying down Terrains, sure, but they're all easily counter-able. The only one of those I've had problems with is Lele.

>>30647684
I want regular Lando, the one banned last gen, to keep banned. Lando-T isn't seriously that difficult to play around, at least it wasn't in gen 6 meta.

>>30641543
>Garchomp
>Snorunt used ice beam!

Though you VP retards said 4x weakening matter? But I guess that's only for stupid landshark.

>>30639234
tbqh I can see Kingdra being OU if rain makes a comeback