Who was in the right?

>>30501585
Karen. People who can win with shitmons are objectively better than people who can only win with powerful pokemon.

>>30501611
/thread

>>30501611
Wrong. People who handicap themselves on purpose have no honor and are fully aware that in an equal match, they still would not stand a chance.

Limiting yourself to shitmons is a great excuse for when you get your shit pushed in.

>>30501611
You can't win with shitmons against a good comp team you fucking mouthbreather. And you can't play better than "correctly".

>>30501585
the one with an actual identity

The Gentleman obviously. Some Pokemon are just destined to be shit.

Karen is an elite four and the Gentleman is nothing

checkmate theists

>>30501585
Karen would be right if the game was like the anime, but it is unfortunately not. It's just a bunch of fucking numbers. Ergo, some things will be good while others won't. It happens.

>elite four member
>literal nobody

also, this:>>30501611

>>30501647
Sejun Park and Hot Monkay Dik say hello

>Not playing with your shitmons favorites AND also your favorites that happens to be decent in battle

>>30501645
>handicap themselves on purpose
wtf

>>30501585
Uh, Karen. Karen is on the right side. The Gentleman is on the left side.
Why are you asking about basic directions OP?

In the actual Pokemon universe / from what the anime has shown us, Karen.

In the games, Gentleman.

As much as I would like to say Karen, I have to go with the Gentleman. Lurantis and Meowstic are one of my favorite mons this series ever made, but I know dam and well they are no way near amazing or good in competitive. Sometime you have to use things you don't like if you want to succed, do you really think I like using Lando or Heatran ?

>>30501585
Turns out the game isn't Shounen anime.
Shitmons are shit. They aren't going to do much against a non-shitter.
>b-b-but muh pachirisu?!
its ass. bring that set to OU high ladder, see what happens when you literally only have 5 Pokemon and 1 Death Fodder.

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>>30501720

Gentleman in both the games and the anime.
The canonically strongest trainer in the anime is one who uses legendarily he clearly doesn't give a shit about. And in the games it's no question.

Karen was a pushover in the games too. Having a bunch of pokemon leveled in the 40s. "Elite Four" trainer.

>>30501647
good comp teams can utilize shitmons
otherwise they would not be good

Karen, obviously.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOx_Qdc6bqw

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>>30501704
>le Sejun Park "just used his bro because of the power of friendship1!11111111!!!!!!!" meme
>notshitagain.jpg
Whether this is bait or not, get out and kill yourself. This tells me you know nothing about Pokemon or simple math, because if you did, you'd know that not all 'mons are created equal. They're merely mathematical constructs. Mega Fug is one of the strongest, and Sunkern is one of the weakest. It's a fact. Get over it. This isn't the anime.

>Karenfags favorite pokemon
Starter
Lucario
Raichu
Rockruff evo (either works)
Another Start
Waifumon.

Nobody really takes them seriously.

>>30501807
>le pachirisu xDDDDDD
end your fucking life.

I have no problem with the karenfags who know their pokes aren't competitively viable but use them because they have more fun with their favorites. What I can't stand is all the random shitters who think they are """good""" with their team of shitmons because they beat people at like 1100 elo on showdown. I can think of exactly 2 (two) players who actually do the karenfag thing well, one was sejun park with his pachirisu who won worlds and the other is a smogon tourney fag who somehow uses pokemon no ones ever used well, builds a team around them, and just wrecks shit. He is seriously a god. Those 2 people are GOOD karenfags, most others who think they're actually good are just delusional as fuck
Im a little mad about it

>>30501611
First post dumbest post.

>>30501847
>Falling for the sejun park meme
>Falling for someone smog-cuck meme.

>>30501845
>le
>xDDDDDD

And you're the one saying to anyone to end his life.

>>30501798
Come the fuck on, anon. Listen to yourself. What you just said makes no sense.
You have to be able to incorporate a shitmon into your team or else it's not a good comp team? What the fuck are you on about? Placing a fucking Seviper on my team is in no way any indication of how good my team is.

>>30501710
/thread

>>30501839
>Smogonfags favorite pokemon
Landorus
Thundorus
Tornadus
Garchomp
Ferrothorn
Toxapex

Nobody really takes them seriously

>>30501874
holy shit I don't even agree with the guy but how much of a newfag can you be

>>30501819
Who said anything about power of friendship? He just used a pokemon who is considered a shitmon and still won.

>>30501611
>>30501631
>>30501679
Using low tier mons, or low tier characters in ANY game, is just a psychological defence mechanism used by pussy faggots. It let's you say to yourself if you win "LEL XD I beat someone using a meta team with a team of shitmons" and if you lose "well I was just trolling and not taking my team serious, don't be such a tryhard." If you look at any game that define whose good and whose bad, the bad characters still have a winrate. It's just when you play 100+ games, you are more likely to lose more than win. Not that you will never win.

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>>30501888
Please tell me again about how your starter is really good and how "skilled" you are since you got to 1200 Elo on Pokemon Showdown.

>le elo meme xD :v
Not an argument

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>>30501611

>>30501871
>sejun park meme
I'm not saying pachirisu is good and that everyone should use it but he did something unique, he found a utility opening for a lesser used pokemon and successfully built a winning team around it, I'd say that's 1 instance of karenfagging being done well. Not sure what the meme is
Same thing with the tourneyfag just on a smaller scale because way fewer people follow smogon tourneys. He has done what sejun park did 5-6 times

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>>30501977
>O-okay instead of coming up with a rebuttal let me just say "le" and "meme"

>>30501956
>is just a psychological defence mechanism used by pussy faggots
wtf are you talking about? Is this a projection?
>LEL XD
I can't even read your post.

>>30501888
Breaking news! Competitive players that want to win mostly use pokemon that have been proven to be good! More at eleven.

>>30501944
> He just used a pokemon who is considered a shitmon
Correction: "is a shitmon outside of very specific circumstances that make him high elo viable and in this SPECIFIC CASE was not a shitmon." You can't just slap a Pachirisu in your team and call it a day. It takes actual strategy, which has nothing to do with Karen's motto. She says "trainers should try to win with their favorites", but it isn't about playing favorites or not - it's about the math and meta says is and isn't viable.

>>30501956
using pokemon with a low winrate and still coming out on top is what makes those few people good you double nigger

no one is saying anything about the pokemon itself being good, but someone who finds a use for something that is generally (rightfully) considered shit is a good player

>>30501957
i boxed it. i just use mons i like and admit they are not good, but playing against the same copy pasted teams all the time is just plain boring. :^)

>>30501611
That ain't winning Tournaments
>Pachirisu
That had the tools to be a suprise threat. You can't pull that off with garbage mons like Rapidash or Floatzel.

>>30502051
>He cannot innovate with actual good pokemon
>He will never be good enough to notice differences between pokemon sets
>Just plays with his in-game team
>B-But I boxed my starter!111!
Enjoy using Lyanrock and Lucario! I'm sure playing against all the people sub 1200 on Pokemon Showdown sure is fun, right? ^:)

>>30502043
This. Sejun didn't just slap Pachirisu on his team because he liked it and called it a day. He noticed that a pokemon usually considered shit was actually quite decent in this year's meta, and integrated it with the rest of his team.

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>>30501585
I think they're both kinda right. This plagued me when X and Y first came out. My bros from Gen V just weren't making the cut competitively, but I didn't want to make a team strictly full of shit eating OUs like everyone else. So I decided to mix up a team of Pokemon from all gens that were strong, but that I also liked designwise, which meant I got to keep 2/6 of my Gen V bros for my competitive team. In the end, even if the meta makes it better or worse as new games come out, I already decided this was my "signature" team that I would carry with me to all Pokemon games for online from now on. Basically. You either learn how to make your current bros strong/helpful in battle, or you learn how to grow onto strong Pokemon and make them your new bros.

Of course whenever somebody sees my team, I immediately get labeled OU trash, but I don't care. At the end of the day, it's a mildly competitive game that I don't want to totally suck at.

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>>30501611
Karen.

While using shitmons may, on paper, be objectively worse than any other OU tier pokemon, I think people derive more joy from raising their favorites and winning because it forces them to be creative and really put their time/effort into the pokemon.

Then again, raising your favorites =/= shitmon. For all we know, your favorite could be fucking Lucario or any of the over-powered/shoved-down-our-throats pokemon.

>>30501956
god forbid some people actually play for fun.

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>>30501585
Ye let me bring my fucking Stantler to worlds that will work out well

>>30501645
>Wrong. People who handicap themselves on purpose have no honor and are fully aware that in an equal match, they still would not stand a chance.

So what if you won using suboptimal pokemon? And since when is using pokemon you like not "honorable"? Kek, what the fuck is wrong with you

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>>30501585
>truly skilled
vs
>truly strong
I figure it takes more skill to win with favorites that happen to be shit but you'll never be as strong as the guy who dropped favorites for actually good Pokemon. Similar to picking a top tier in fighting games, which is just fine.

>>30501585

Neither, the right answer is Roxie.

-"Fight with this Pokémon that way... Use this item that way... Are you letting others decide that for you? Well, whatever, but what's important is figuring out what you want to do!"

Giving your team what you feel it needs is important, and honestly Roxie is the only one that touches that subject, she is smogon as fuck in that regard optimizing your team according to what you want to do is pretty much the very foundation of the smogon format.

Karen is shrouded in faggotory, since strong and weak Pokémon doesn't matter I should just use my favorite, well prepare your anus for some mega fug because it's very hard for me to dislike Choo choo Shenlong. I'm not using him because it is strong, I'm using him because the design appeals to me! Funny enough Smogon usage tiering kinda allows even shitmons to shine in their context.

ORAS gentleman is absolutely right about VGC and to some extent about patching holes in singles team building. Centralization is real, and to be competitive you gotta play its game, both with it and also in the anti meta sense.

But seriously Roxie gives a damn good piece of advice.

>>30502002
Did he build a team around it? From what i remember, it was just the same sort of teams everyone else was using, except he used pachi over amoongus because everyone was building to fuck amoongus.

>>30502196
What if your favorites are also strong?

>>30502107
gee i think i got reeled in a bit too much :^)
or you are just a triggered smogonfag
Mega Lucario is banned to Ubers by the way :^^^^)

>>30501956
If I'm going to invest time into breeding and training, then I'm going to do so using Pokemon that I enjoy using when I play my own copy of my game. Sorry that you can't understand that there are people that can have fun using Pokemon that they like.

>>30502256
Then you lucked out, obviously.

>>30502045
Those few people who use a pokemon widely considered to be crap are chosen to round off or bring something unique to their team in a certain way. It is never first chosen and then tried to be forced to work. See: Sejun Park.

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>>30502259
>:^^^^)
I think you are the "triggered" one here my friend.

>>30502142
>>30502270
Did you all even read who I was replying to?

>>30502240
Gothitrap did all the job to be honest.

>>30502294
ein alter trick, leicht auszumalen!
der kerl rutscht aus auf den Bananenschalen!

>>30502355
恥ずかしい

The gentleman. Some pokemon are destined to be shit, there's no disputing that. Love and trust doesn't win battles alright? Proper strategy, setups, movesets and predictions win battles. The games aren't the anime. You think your Pikachu is going to even scratch a Garchomp much less defeat it just because you "love" it and its your "friendship" that makes you strong. GTFO with that bullshit.

You can give a shitmon as many bells and whistles you want, maybe even making them slightly less shitty in the process, but at the end of the day it comes down to one of two things: Your shitmon is a slightly less shitmon or your strategy works better on a pokemon that outclasses your shitmon in every possible way, and no amount of friendship will change that.

>>30501585
The guy, making you fav shitmon suffer in front of an obviously stronger pokemon its just torturing him to please your autism

>>30502368
cтapый тpюк, лeгкo ceбe пpeдcтaвить!
пapeнь cкoльзит нa бaнaнoвoй кoжypы!

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This girl!

>>30502355
ICH MUSS EUCH MAL ZEIGEN, WORUM'S HIER GEHT,
PASST GUT AUF DAMIT IHR MICH VERSTEHT,
WER DIE NUMMER EINS SEIN WILL ALS BÖSEWICHT,
KANN SUPERHELDEN FANGEN UND VERPASST SIE NICHT!

>>30502469
>that filter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSCiMbMVDLI

>>30501585
In that image, Karen is clearly in the right

The gentleman's in the left

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I just battle because it's fun. It's more fun to work with Pokemon that I actually like rather than a generic party of OUs.
>>30502469
This.

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>>30502505

>>30502519
>>>reddit

Gentleman is right. My favorite Pokemon is Farfetch'd but even when I use it in game it's not that usable. For a competitive scene you need competitive Pokemon. However, I disagree with people who only value Pokemon for their competitive use. There are many factors that should go into why you love a Pokemon.

>>30502533
>fun is bad
>>>/v/

>>30501585
Well, one is part of the elite four, and the other is some old geezer who never went the distance.

>>30502547
>linking /v/
>>>/a/

>>30501647
Competitive teams gradually become specialized to only deal with other competitive strategies.
Every so often you can get wrecked by a bunch of shitmons with weird, but effective strategies that you aren't accounting for.

>>30501760
Then why did it win the world championship? And if you can do so much better, why haven't you?

>>30501611
FPBP

>>30502469
t. trudeau

>>30502476
SO NEHMT DIESES NETZ
JETZT WIRD ER GEHETZT!
WENN ICH SAG' "JETZT"
DANN WERFT IHR DAS NETZ

>Karen, member of the Elite 4

>Gentleman, some literal who who doesn't even have a name

>>30502021
That is what you people do. See >>30501845

The Gentleman is right. Karen's words hold no weight. They're the end result of her being a spoiled brat who gets so salty she lost to a kid that she needs to attempt to reach moral high ground.

>>30502597
It won the world championship because Park noticed that something usually considered a shitmon was decent and unprepared for in this year's meta, and integrated it into his team. He didn't just slap his bro onto a random team and win with the power of friendship. But keep in mind that OU and VGC are two completely different metas. If you can find a way to make it work in OU, then by all means do so.

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>>30501585
Karen is a liar look at how good these mons are on her team.

>>30502653
>They're the end result of her being a spoiled brat who gets so salty she lost to a kid that she needs to attempt to reach moral high ground.
and then the gentleman gets fucked too

>>30502653
Nigga, why would she be salty? She is an E4 member. Meanwhile "gentleman" is making excuses about losing to some kid and pretending jt was "a hard fought trial" when the kid steam rolled his fossilized ass with his favorites.

>>30502597
It won the world championship because it was GOOD in that very specific meta. Did you ever play any competitive game ? There is such a thing as a good meta call, and Pachirisu was one. It doesn't mean that it's going to win you any game if you just put it in a team without any thought. It's still a shitmon but with a very situational use.

>>30502697
the gentleman doesn't blame his loss on his pokemon though

>>30501645

While you might be right, what you said doesn't apply in this context. Both want and are implying victory.
How many autisms do you suffer from, my dude?

>>30502672
So it won because it was good enough to win. That sure proved that it wasn't good enough to win. You are good at this.

>>30502694

>Houndoom
>non-mega Absol
>Honchcrow
>good

>>30502716
How do you interpret Karen's quote as blame

>>30501661
The Gentleman was invited to a place where only the strongest trainers are invited to.

>>30502732
>b-being competitive sucks anyway, what matters is that you LIKE your pokemon!

>>30502710
>It doesn't mean that it's going to win you any game if you just put it in a team without any thought.
No shit, thanks for the advisory Cpt. Obvious. But he still won, and did so with his favorites, not the meme meta at the moment. Karen was right.

>>30502732
We played the games and know the context of it.

>>30501720

This is the only autism that should be allowed in /vp/

>>30502739
And yet STILL wasn't good enough for the E4. Dude blows, I have seen children with NFE mons in the same facility.

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You know, I karenfag a lot but it shows on my rating. Can't deny the truth.

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>>30501585
Grimsley.
This whole argument is retarded.

>>30502729
Stat wise they arent shit though and thats the only way to determine if a pokemon is objectively good or bad.

>>30502739
>where only the strongest trainers are invited to.

>>30502767
More like Karen wasn't good enough for the resort.

>>30502722
Doesn't matter what they are implying. You will never ever win with shitmons against an equally skilled opponent. Your skill will never ever make up the gap between any competitive top player and yourself.

None whatsoever.

>>30502743
>good fight, it is important that you care about your pokemon and use ones you love, as you and I both do
vs
>psh, whatever kid, you weren't even in meta, it hardly counts when you just use random bullshit, pachirisu wouldn't fly in a REAL comp, I just had some bad luck

Gentleman is a salty fuck.

>>30502798

99.9% of Pokemon "skill" is the pre-battle team building. There is next to nothing involved in the actual execution during the battle.

>>30501720
Underrated.

I use my favorites, whether they are shit or good is irrelevant to me because I have fun using them. If I win with them then thats awesome and if I lose then oh well.

But I do have a separate team composed of competitively viable mons for when I feel like playing to win instead of playing to have fun.

Both are right in their own ways. & in the end, unless you are playing for money or playing in an official tournament or something, it shouldn't be an issue how anyone plays their game.

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>>30502777
Trips of truth.

>>30502793
The resort is for non E4 and champion shitters, man. Stay jealous. The E4 are literally the strongest in the land. Come back when he gets an invite to the PWT like Karen.

>>30502744
You call me Cpt. Obvious but the most basic facts seems to escape you.
If anything it proves that Karen was wrong. Pachirisu WAS a competitive pick for this meta, so he won with the best available choice, not just with the power of believing or frienship.

>Muh Muh Bibarel is good I swear guys

Ok what niche can Bibarel fill?

Physical Water Attacker? Sorry there are like over 20 better mons for that

Bulky Water Support? Oops sorry about that too

Useless piece of shit? Well it already has that position.

>>30502798
Pachirisu and misdreavus prove you wrong.

>>30502818
>There is next to nothing involved in the actual execution during the battle.
Fucking what? Hard reads and switching is at least 85% of what actually goes on in most competitive games, are you inept?

>>30502180
>I was only going easy on you cause I was using shitmons :^)

>>30502856
>m-m-muh reads!

>>30502833
>The resort is for non E4 and champion shitters, man.
Not him but what?
Are you seriously trying to say that people who have beaten the E4 are worse than them?

>>30502777
>Posts Grimsley
>Triple sevens
/thread

>>30502777
Grimsley just hit the jackpot.

>>30502704
Gentleman isn't making excuses. He's telling it like it is, as a true gentleman would. Karen is just toeing the line by feeding every trainer feel good nonsense.

>>30502777
>Gambler got 777
it's decided

>>30502744
>did so with his favorites
>Pachirisu was his favorite
Citation needed
Even so it wasn't just thrown on there, it had a specific use (want to say it was the best Follow Me user that was allowed but I don't remember).

>>30502834
She never said anything about the power of friendship, and Pachirisu is objectively worse than many others. You are literally making up bullshit definitions in a vain attempt to win the argument you admitted to losing. Pachirisu is not very good, but was used intelligently and helped a team win at the world championships. Karen was right, being the strongest does not matter as much as playing smart and using what you like.

It is over. Move the goalposts all you want, but you have lost.

>>30502882
That's not an argument

>>30502729
Wasn't there a famous sportsman who got an amazing winning streak with his Moxie Honchcrow ? I can't remember the details...

>>30502946
neither is yours

>>30502729
>Honchcrow
>not good
You fags sure forgot fast, didn't you ?

>>30502919
And here you are implying that when people use mons they like they don't think about their use on the team. You are an idiot.

>>30502894
>resort
>beat the E4
No they haven't. Play the games sometime and get off showdown.

>>30501585
What if my favourites are my favourites because they are the best in battle?

>>30502947
You're thinking of when Brennan came here.
We're supposed to have a rematch in the new year if I remember right

>>30502851
They really don't. Both of those were anomalies caused by top-tier players using one shitmon among five comp mons, setting up so the shitmon wouldn't hinder them. Using your favourite shitmons is different than carefully constructing a team made to allow one shitmon to thrive.

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>Strong Pokémon. Weak Pokémon. That is only the selfish perception of people.
Objectively wrong. A shitmon like Moltres is never going to be on the same level as Ho-oh. That is a fact.

>Truly skilled trainers should try to win with their favorites.
Trying to win ≠ You will win
If you're favorite is a shitmon, you won't win. That's how things work.

The Gentleman is clearly in the right here. If you want to be a casualfag, go ahead and use you shitmon favorites. But don't expect to win.
If you want to win, you WILL have to use strong Pokémon. That's just how it goes.

>>30502777
While I do agree this argument is retarded, the Gentalman is clearly in the right here.

>>30502955
My argument was actually pretty sound. Switching and making reads completely counters your claim that the only thing involved in battle is just pressing buttons. The only thing you did was greentext

>>30502977
>No they haven't.
Dude. They were chosen because of those feats.
What are you on?

>>30501679
>>30501661
elite 3 members would get crushed by battle facilities though

>>30502980
Then you're just superficial.

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>>30503106

Look here you autistic pieces of shit!
Both are right.
Karen is talking about skill. Now, who's more skilled? Someone who builds a competent team out of his/her favorite pokemon and wins, or some shitter rat kid who copy/pasted a team from the internet and just spams whatever shit he saw on youtube?
Yeah, that's right.
Now, for the gentleman. When winning, obviously the strongest will win. But he's talking about winning, not skill.
You fuckers are the reason I'm ashamed to like Pokemon.

>>30503182
Nice mental gymnastics.

>>30501704
sejun park was already explained by >>30502043
and>>30502116

hot monkay dik was opponent being dumb and luck

>>30503200

Nice comeback.

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>>30503182

>>30503217
Then prove why what you just said wasn't just a case of very spestic mental gymnastics to fit your point of view.

>>30503001
No, anon. Winning with shitmons makes Karenfags so much better. Implying they can ever win.
Fucking Karenfags. If they had the brains to understand this much, they wouldn't be Karenfags.

>>30503246
I've blown legendaries back with shitmons before. Explain that.

>>30502089
Did anybody actually think Pachirisu had potential before that match, though? The point is he took a Pokemon everybody thought was a shitmon and capitalized on it.

>>30503284
>In-game shit

WEW almost gave you half a fuck. Won't be making that mistake again

>>30503284
That's not the point karenfags are trying to push. They are trying to push the narrative that any pokemon considered a shitmon by the vast majority of comp players is actually a diamond in the rough, which just isn't true.

>>30503182
But what happens in a setting where both players have reached the skill cap? Then what makes the difference boils down to how good the pokémon are and luck. Which is what happens in championships.

>>30503270
Let me guess, in-game Legendaies? Yeah, they're real trials. No one could beat them, right guys?

Go make a team of your shitmons and fight me on showdown. I'll explain everything you need with a battle. I'll explain just how retarded you are if you think shitmons are called shitmons for no reason.

>>30501704

>Sejun Park

Pachirisu wasn't a shitmon in the VGC 14 meta. He used it bc it filled a particular niche in his team of redirecting attacks away from Gyara when everyone was prepped for Amoong as the premier redirect mon. Meta trends were favorable for it, Park exploited that. Park himself explained his choice, stop thinking that he used it for shits and giggles or the power of friendship or whatever wish fulfillment people who don't understand the meta perpetuate.

>literal monkey meme against ELO scrubs

If you use Showderp to prove your point you should just give up my dude

>>30503284
The point is that people use the fact that the guy had a really effective follow me user with access to a move that can cut 50% of the enemy's HP that everyone overlooked to base the argument of "any shitmon can shine if you do it right!". No. Pachirisu worked because it was the best at doing that specific role that the player wanted, given all the available Pokémon.

>>30502002
>>30502002
but it wasn't his favorite or anything. he only used pachirisu because he knew it would be able to make him win in that situation

he wasn't using it because he liked pachirisu, so he was not being a karenfag even though he used a usually bad pokemon. the meme is that people mistake sejun using pachirisu as a strategy for him using a shitmon that he likes the design of

Karen is right of course. Imagine how diverse and fun pokemon would be if everyone just used their favorites and worked with what they could do. Instead autists ruin Pokemon as usual with their "I only play to win" nonsense mindset. This is a childrens monster battling game, go play Dota 2 or a fighting game if you want something skillful.

There is such a thing as nuance. Running an absolute shitmon like stantler while playing OU isn't noble, its stupid, but then hacking the gameso you can use megakhan, gliscor and chansey in the battle tree is also faggotry.

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>>30503351
>Imagine how diverse and fun pokemon would be if everyone just used their favorites and worked with what they could do.
You don't need to imagine anything. It would look like pic related. The ones who aren't using strong Pokemon would get crushed by the ones who do, and slowly disappear over time.

>>30503182
>Someone who builds a competent team out of his/her favorite pokemon and wins
Its sometimes hard to tell if the person is more skilled than their opponent because then you have to take into consideration the surprise factor. Not saying that they can't be, but it can become unclear. That's what cheese strats are in other games, and it's often hard to tell if its cheese or skill.

>>30503351
>This is a childrens monster battling game, go play Dota 2 or a fighting game if you want something skillful.
>Don't play a way I don't like

before XY I had an over 1800 ranking in Smogon NU using Vileplume with effect spore, Metang with Eviolite, Miltank healer, Relicanth for stealth rocks and Weezing. sixth pokemon changed a lot, sometimes lickiylicky, sometimes marowak.

Havent played since 2013 because I hated XY, hated Mega Evolutions, and skipped ORAS.
I got Sun because of the good reviews and I am surprised by how good it is.

now I am thinking of playing in Smogon again.

Karen is right, but if you want to play with your favorites, you will probably have to stick with NU to RU.

>>30503422
Your ranking in smogon doesn't matter for shit because most people playing there aren't top-tier or close to it. They're mostly newfags getting into comp for the first time.

>>30502645
"you people"

I don't know why you have to bring racism into this....

what's wrong with us blacks playing pokemon?

>>30503526
Everything. I miss 2010 when your people were relegated to your own game version.

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Why are anti-karenfags so mad all the time?

>>30503564
You try having a flock of retards trying to convince you of something that is objectively wrong 24/7.

>>30503574
There you go again, name calling and bashing people.

>>30503624
Good observation that adds nothing to the discussion. Will you tell me that the sky is blue next?

>>30501585
When it comes right down to it, the Gentleman. Karen's words only apply for maingame playthroughs where everything is easy. In reality you're not going to beat a team of Ubers with a team of your six favorite Caterpies or something.

>>30501585
I have more fun winning with a standard team than losing with a bad team

If you're the opposite, all I can say is I don't understand but thanks for the points

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>>30503564
Because they can't feel satisfied unless everyone is using the exact same cookie cutter teams. If they lose to someone with worse mons, they feel infuriated because they were out fucking skilled or got severely luck sacked. If they win, they feel empty because their team was statistically superior so that was to be expected.

>>30503564
Ho ho ho, no, my good Sir. Karen was in the wrong.
Do you think that will work?

>>30503637
Alright man, keep on sperging

>>30502777
Grimsley is as per usual, dropping one of the most interesting perspectives on this topic. So frequently on Showdown does my opponent complain and even blame their loss on RNG. We've all had our salty moments, because bad luck is bound to happen within this game. However, I think it's really important to learn how to play the game when you expect RNG to happen. I find all of these quotes very interesting and actually relevant

>>30502122
>most rational post on /vp/
>no replies

sorry fampai, you have to act like a retard to get attention here. also

>ifunny

it's so easy to cut out that watermark, why don't you do it faggot?

>>30503564
They're not. When has this ever been the case? You don't really see threads bashing Karenfags, it's always muh smogon sucks every single time.

>>30503674
I'm not the one adding random observations into discussions. Clearly you're the one with aspie tendencies, seeing as you don't know when a conversation calls for your barely intelligent observations of irrelevant things or not.

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>>30503658
>If they lose to someone with worse mons

>>30501585
Both of them are. Truly strong trainers can win a decent amount of time using their favorites, but if you want to win the majority of the time you have to be prepared to sacrifice your favorites and use the best Pokemon for the situation. The best of the best trainers can see when the meta centralizes on 2-4 core Pokemon, and tech in what would typically be considered a shitmon that counters those Pokemon.

I don't play pokemon super seriously.
I put together a team with good natures and some okay training and type coverage. If I want to play serious I could, I just don't have the time. Making a perfect team is very time consuming.

>>30503729
Isn't that exactly what the Gentleman says? That you can fight and win with your favorites, but if there are times when you need to be prepared to use the stronger Pokemon instead.
Karen is just dismissing the idea of strong and weak Pokemon altogether.

>>30503800
>if I want to play serious I could
>"i-i was just going easy on you because i have a life lol no time for the meta :^)"
Did you get your cucks anonymous membership pin in the mail yet?

>>30503801
The gentleman is a true patrician who knows the truth, while Karen is just a strong womyn who needs no strong Pokémen. Who is right?

>>30503827
By that I meant I could put together a competent team. I wasn't saying I was better than anyone. In fact I was pretty much admitting I was bad at it.
Calm down friend.

>>30503827
Can you believe that asshole has things to do besides playing a children's game? What a FUCKING cuck!

>>30501585
I'll always find funny how the message Pokemon preaches and how the game actually this and makes you do so you can remain competitive completely contradict one another.

If the games ran in anime logic Karen would be right but sadly Pokemon is a numbers game most of all. Some things are objectively better than others depending on the circumstances.

>>30503848
>needing an excuse to perform poorly in a childrens' game
Yes, what a fucking cuck.

>>30503833
>Karen is just a strong womyn who needs no strong Pokémen
If that was the case, I wouldn't be arguing about it in this thread.

Karen isn't saying she doesn't need strong Pokemon. She's saying there are no strong Pokemon. It's only the skills of the trainer that matter.
According to Karen, a Pichu is just as strong as Pikachu if you're skilled trainer. That's objectively wrong.

>>30503861
>Just play with your favourites man :-)
>Unless you want to try doing any of the postgame battle facilities where we'll take a 2 foot shit down your throat unless you have near perfectly optimized Pokemon and compositions :-)

>>30503883
Breeding is my favorite part.

Start an eugenics program that'll be also full of incest and just keep making your Pokemon have sex endlessly and throw their children into the trash if they don't come out right.

I always find funny how Karenfags shit on your if your favorite also happens to be good.

Yesterday there was a thread where this guy had Marowak as his bro but now that Marowak is good he said he can't like him anymore because he's good. Shouldn't you be happy that your bro is good? I don't understand how people can be such contrarians. Pretty autistic and pathetic desu. You are even worse than the so called tourneyfags for being such little bitches and fixated on if a Pokemon is good or not that it lets you influence your opinion that badly.

>>30503862
>everyone has to consume this much time in a children's game or you're a cuck
Get a load of Mark Cuckerburg over here.

>>30502697
>>30502704
you don't even fight the gentleman quoted in the OP

you just talk to him and he says you need to be prepared to use pokemon you know you can win. what the fuck are you two talking about?

>>30503936
Your argument is neither for or against mine. Try reading it again and responding with something relevant.

>>30502877
Well if they won with shitmons, then yeah. They probably were going easy on you and understand how to create a synergistic team even without the best possible stats. I wouldn't want to play them if they had a team of objectively great mons because I would probably get my shit kicked in.

>>30502925
pachirisu is not one of his favorites though

he only picked it because he knew it would win you retard

>>30503968
>if they won
>if
>if
>if
>if
>if

See the flaw in your logic yet? Want me to keep going?

>if
>if

>>30502925
You keep missing the point m8

Karen point is use your favorites
Sejun used the squirrel not because it was his favorite but because it was a meta pick, Sejun even said he'd have picked Amoongus like everyone else if not for noticing the squirrel
He didn't pick it because it was his favorite and his bro, which is what the guy you were arguing with trying to tell you and that you somehow completely missed or were willfully ignoring because it contradicts your argument

C'mon man, this is not hard.

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>>30502141
>TFW favorites are actually good this gen for once

Feels good man.

>>30503962
>needing to be relevant
Get a load of Cuck Rogers over here!

>>30504048
B-But you can't have favorites if they are good! They have to be bad so you can complain about big bad Smogon for them being bad!

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Neither of them are right, because at it's core Pokemon is not about what Pokemon you use but entirely about how you use them.

>>30504048
>implying mega beasts are good

Karen ingame, gentleman competitive

>>30504091
What is that smoothed out garbage? Burn it.

>>30503689
Gen V had two of the best trainers with quotes on winning and losing, Grimsley and Roxie PWT quotes are just pure gold.

>Karenfags using teams of shitters but loses: lol who cares if I lost I was playing for fun with my bros I'm not a tryhard i have a life
>Karenfags using teams of shitters but wins agaisnt a 8 years old who's just starting to learn: lol get rekt you damn smogonfag you are so bad git gud maybe you should stop being such a tryhard you virging

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>>30504048
>ftw favorite has been salamence since gen 3

>>30501845
Gothitelle, gardevoir and gyrados aren't even seen that often though.

>>30504154
>Gothitelle, gardevoir and gyrados aren't even seen that often though.
What kind of metagames have you been playing? Those three have always been very usable and decent Pokemon.

>>30503564
Type-A personality. Usually really agitated and angry with low tolerance for anything they view as suboptimal. Very confrontational and hate to lose or give an inch.

>>30504144
Enjoy having a banned mega but being in UU like Gengar this gen. :^\

>>30504048
>that aliasing on the background

b-best looking pokemon

>>30503422
>before XY

You are literally irrelevant. With Megas the metagame changed forever. How does it feel to be a cuck, cuck?

>>30504180
>le only two personality types

no, it's just that we hate it when people are wrong. if you think the wrong way, but still think you are right then you shouldn't exist

>>30504172
>implying gothitelle gets that much competitive spotlight
What the fuck are you talking about, negro.

>>30504188
>he plays smogon

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What if my favourites just tend to be really powerful Pokemon?

>>30504243
if you weren't retarded, you would know

hint: a little thing called shadow tag

>>30504246
Then you're not a Karenfag.
Karenfags are people who think all Pokemon are equal. In other words, retards.

>>30504245
Have fun getting your entire team put to sleep and facing mega fug.

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>>30504243
Shadow Tag you idiot.

People always ignore her at first and then realize she has one of the best abilities of the game and start to use her again GothiTR was pretty big around the latter stages of VGC14 and she's always the reason Shadow Tag gets banned in OU because GothiTrap teams become super dominating when they resurge every generation.

>>30504245
It's generally accepted to be a good format, yeah.

>>30504246
Then he isn't your real bro because according to karenfags a pokemon can only be a bro if he's shit.

>>30504278
I will, thank you father!

>>30504279
I would've read your reply if you didn't post gay waifu shit. Access denied.

>>30504277
Not true, Karen said you should try win with your favourites. Strong Pokemon and weak Pokemon just being a selfish perception. What I'm saying is my favourites tend to be really strong Pokemon.

>>30501704
Pacharisu was used because this VGC was Kalos-dex only, nigger.

>>30504295
I mean, to be fair, it's difficult to have a favorite Pokemon that ISN'T shit when about 60 out of 802 are good.

>>30504358
See
>>30504295

Here's a prime example of how stupid karenfags are

>>30488648
>>30489575

They don't care about their "bro" at all. All they care about is their contrarian and hipsters points so that they can feel "superior" and remain in their imaginary moral high ground.

It is a common opinion among new or casual players of a fighting game that all the characters in the series are equal and have the same amount of potential. These players believe that the inherent strengths and weaknesses of characters balance them out, thus eliminating the need for tiers. However, the consensus of competitive players and knowledgeable spectators is that tiers do exist. In reality, it would be almost impossible for developers to balance a game of unique characters, because the differing properties of each character produce a large number of variables that cannot be constantly monitored and modified on the spot for the purpose of perfect balance. Thus, developers may not be able to foresee top level strategies before their game's release date, and even deliberate efforts will not perfectly balance a game at a professional level.
-Super Smash Bros Wiki

>>30501611
fpbp

>>30504300
Have fun with your now trans dad who got arrested after spraying mace on a gamestop employee. Also getting pickle pegged by rosechu.

>>30504358
>Strong Pokemon and weak Pokemon just being a selfish perception.
What do you think that means? It means that Karen and Karenfags think that all Pokemon are actually equal. There's no strong Pokemon and weak Pokemon. That what decides the outcome of a battle is the skills of the trainer, not the Pokemon.
The moment you think a Pokemon is stronger than any other, you're not a Karenfag. If you think a Pichu is shit compared to Alolan Raichu, you are not a Karenfag.

>>30504001
The chances of a shitmon team winning wasn't in the original argument, this about someone sperging out about how if one did than it wouldn't actually count as a display of skill. If that shit happened I would be wary of that person because it would be so unlikely. I would assume they knew what they were doing.

If you want to be a cunt at least be a relevant cunt.

>>30504394
fucking wow what a retard

>I can't use my favorite unless it's a shitmo\\\\\\\\\\\n

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>EVERYONE SHOULD PLAY THE SAME WAY AS ME!!!

Kill yourselves. All of you.

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ignoring the retarded font why is Grimsley always right?

Hate to admit it but the gentleman is right.

At the end of the day it's the developers' fault for making Pokémon with shit stats, shit moves and shit abilities, so it sounds completely hypocritical when random characters spew bs like "all pokemon can be equally strong if you train them well"

>>30504629
Because he's not a sore loser whiny faggots and actually tries to git gud when things go bad for him

>>30504629
Because he isn't a retard. Unlike Karen.

>>30501845
Not even gonna acknowledge the charizard being used?

>>30501585
Karen's fine if you care about winning a moral/personal victory. But it has shit to do with the reality.
>selfish
>should
Moralizing. Gentleman is straight facts. Losing is not winning, winning is winning. If you want to win/not lose, you have to do things to win/not lose.

>>30503153
He finally gets his wish with Hyper Training

>>30502850
>Moody
>SD
>aqua jet
You beat 12 year olds on battle spot with it, anon.

>>30504736
What does that have to do with anything?

Charizard may have been a joke for 5 generations straight but he's good now thanks to mega. He's not a shitmon nor a niche shitmon who can shine in highly specific situations anymore.

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>>30504736
kys

Karenfagging is for single player
Gentleman is for competitive
Grimsley and roxie are right.

I karenfagged the fuck out of this gens singleplayer, but I would never throw my serious mismagius into competitive and expect to win just because it took down kukui.

>>30504817
First gen was a mistake.

>>30503883
That was even funnier in this game. In the older games they at least filled the early stages with shitters so you could get some wins. Now the battle tree throws fully evolved shit at you from the start, and unless your ingame team was unusually good there's no way you can break 10 wins

>>30504817
>Charizard isn't affected by stealth rock

>>30504904
Mismagius is actually good though

>>30504596
kot

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>>30504641
Right? Why would they waste great designs on Pokemon then give them shit stats? Not saying every Pokemon has to be OU SUPER BUSTED, but surely they could stop deliberately making bad pokemon, stick with what works.

>>30504950
somehow I got to 16 with my in-game team of salazzle, kommo-o, and drampa

probably got lucky. I just needed battle points to get the power items so I kept doing streaks of like 5 over and over mostly

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>>30501585
Is it wrong for me to objectively walk a middle ground here?

I agree with Karen and never use a pokemon I dont like, I make sure to at least have one of my favorites on each and team and do my best to use other mons to patch in the weakness. I'll never use a full smogon approved ™ team but I also accept the fact I'll never make it to the top if I do.

When it comes to competitive anything, especially with a prize on the line like VGC, if you aren't braining your best you better be prepared for the best. That one Pachirisu and Clefairy were able to throw people off but they were odd ones out. But look at the rest of the teams...

>>30505036
That's not bad.
Mine was shit like owl, muk and raichu. I had no chance. I only wanted a few points for the power items, but when I lost early I just built up a phero/lele/bewear team and crushed the normal battles out of pure spite

>>30501585
Anime: Karen
Game/competitive: Gentleman
If pokemon was real: Karen with Gentleman being in the Olympics shit.

In the end Grimsley is right.

Why is everyone here attacking Smogon? Smogon caters towards Karenfaggery more then you'd think.

The entire VGC scene has the ORAS Gentleman mentality, way more than Smogon.

I'm an adult male who forms inappropriate attachments to pixels and data so I have to go with Karen.

>>30505328
yes, the point of Smogon is that its fairer than VGC

>>30505328
I agree 'cos Smogon gives a place for virtually the majority of Pokemon to shine without getting steamrolled

>>30505040
why do they have mega mence and mega mom on the same team?

>>30505328
Because Smogon is Karenfagging done right.

Usage determines the trends and once the dust is settled mons that are objectively good come on top while the rest get slowly placed on tiers they can shine. Except for some stuff that are too niche to get widespread use but are borked on a lower tier, just like staraptor.

Smogon gives a fair chance to most mons to be used unlike the fuckery that are the official formats.

A smogonite with Roxie mentality and Grimsley approach to match up issues would be the best approach, of course with a healthy side of ORAS gentleman to understand trends and what to use to be part of them without being a bitch about it.

>>30501704
NO ONE with a decent showdown rating thinks that pokemon are arbitarily good or bad because they have a certain BST or typing. Pokemon are only good based on the environment around them. Sejun used Pachirisu not because it's cute and cuddy, but because it had a niche no one else had. There's no point in copying Sejun's Pachirisu build for 6v6 singles because it was specifically made to succeed in that meta.

>>30501585
Well given that one is a Pokemon league official and the other is some random old dude...

>>30505141
>Anime: Karen
So why did the Darkrai win? Why do all the Legendaries win?

>>30506974
Except Articuno and Regice, even the Anime can't let those guys win.

>>30504904
What did Roxie say?

>>30507080
those don't count because they aren't banned in battle facilities. those are treated more like super rare pokemon rather than overpowered legends

>>30505328
Because they wanted the ones they like to do well in OU and the rules warped to fit that

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>>30501956
>>30501647
>>30501645
A lot of projecting going on by Smogonfags in this thread

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How deep do you guys get into "building" your perfect pokemon?
For me, I like to pay attention to nature and abilities, sometimes breeding them to get the right mix, and also supertrain them in their optimal stats, but once we start talking about IVs and EVs I can't bring myself to care.

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I agree with the gentleman, but that doesn't mean I have to limit myself to only using certain pokemon or put so much attention into nature and IVs and the rest.

If smogons want to build a team formulaicly built to to win then I'm fine letting them win. I'm not out to be the best, I just want a posse of cool monster friends.

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>>30507315
God, most people end up in therapy for having the problems that these chuckleheads see as their greatest strengths.

I choose Karen, if you know what you're doing, almost any pokemon can be great

>>30507315
you do realize smogon caters towards shitmons right? low tiers existing gives shitmons a chance to actually be used. shitmons don't have a chance in other formats

>>30507876
god your a fucking casual

you do know that super training IS EVs right?

>>30509161
I did not know that and strangely enough feel little shame in not knowing.

I guess that means the things you care about are of gravely little importance.

>>30510349
But the only thing you dont do is train for iv's. Or is this bait?

>>30504629
>A washed-out weeb hobo in Alola
>Relevant

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>>30501611
>>30501585
The whole point of Pokemon was always to use your favorites, r-right?

>>30510923
See
>>30503861

>>30501611
>People who can win with shitmons are objectively better than people who can only win with powerful pokemon

Too bad no one ever wins with shitmons

Pachirisu is the closest to that ever happening and it still had a niche

>>30501647
>You can't win with shitmons against a good comp team
>>>/vp/showderp

Doin' it daily, son. Show em how we do, Snips.

>>30502223
>not realizing Roxie was criticizing netdecking smogon's recommended sets

>>30501585
>checks VGC
Hmm...I don't know, OP.

>>30503861
I think it is better to find a balance, you can use your favorite pokemon, but using a completely shit team like 6 bibarels will give you no sympathies. Instead, you should have a few pokemon that is your favorites, and then build your team around that. Remember that pachiriisu guy in 2014 VGC? He beat the championship with a pokemon no body regarded as tough.

>>30507216
"AAAAAAH! You dim-witted...dense...dumb...daft...dippy...dorky...doltish DOOFUS! Doing double duty isn't the problem! You're causing problems for people! Keeping people from getting where they're going because of sheer selfishness is unforgivable! I've HAD it! I'm going to the Gym!"

>>30501611
first post worst post

>>30502729
>non-mega
>in gen four
Nice bait faggot.

>>30507315
It's funny how you fucks have a kneejerk reaction towards Smogon but it's only Smogon where shit like Druddigon, Floatzel or can be a dominant meta force in its own tier, that's Karenfaggotry done right

>>30502919
It was the only Follow Me user with Volt Absorb, which was useful for supporting Gyarados because nobody wanted to use electric moves on it due to the threat of Follow Me, allowing it to play mindgames with Nuzzle and Super Fang.

>>30513033
When people complain about Smogon, 99% of the time they're complaining about OU specifically.

>>30512346
underrated post

>>30510349
>heh...looks like you know basic knowledge about a video game, how pathetic
>glad I'm not wasting my life being a nerd like you heh

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Post yfw most of your personal favorites are competitively viable

You have 6 Pokemon to use, enough to use Pokemon you like and Pokemon you know can do the job.

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>>30513398
This was my favorite talonflame counter.

>>30503564
There's absolutely nothing wrong with playing with the Pokémon you like. But trying to push this mentality as the superior one in any competitive setting is just completely delusional. To win, you need the best tools.

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What do I do if my favorites are also the strongest?

I try to build my team with the "meta" picks around my favorites.

On S/M, for example, Sylveon and Mimikyu haven't left my party once since joining. I just get the strong pokemon that can complement their strengths and cover their weaknesses

>>30513721
Check if Gen 6 Sash/Gen 7 Unburden Fake Out Normal Gem ->Stone Edge, not counter.

>>30514212
I guess it was a check then. I actually ran Sash with Unburden and my moveset was Counter, Reversal, Protect, Earthquake. If they didnt have any priority outside of le balanced fire bird i could wipe their whole team.

>>30501585
Karen is autistic because she implies that you can only like a shitmon if you use it in competitive battles.

I don't understand how people forgot about half of the fun in pokemon.

Teambuilding is as fun as playing it, sometimes even more.
Restrictions on teambuilding such as "I want to use my favourite" enable creativity, this is why the smogon tiers of the month are fun, teambuilding without restrictions is akin to only solve 1 puzzle every gen.

Not everyone likes teambuilding, so if you just want to pick an already made team and make minor chances that's fine. But why would someone get mad about people playing the teambuilding part of the game?

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If I wanted to make something like a Rain team, but instead of using Swift Swim Kingdra I used Swift Swim Lumineon cause Lumineon is muh bro, I would win less often because Lumineon is hopelessly eclipsed by Kingdra in every conceivable fashion. It has lower bulk, offenses, no secondary STAB, and its higher speed is redundant. Using it is simply gimping myself for no reason.

It doesn't matter what I do. No matter how skillfully I use Lumineon, I can do the same with Kingdra and do better in every situation.

So no serious player is going to use Lumineon. Or most Swift Swimmers, for that matter. But despite Kingdra being arguably the best Swift Swimer, many other have unique traits that mean they work better on many teams. Ludicolo has the grass STAB and fighting coverage. Seismitoad can check electrics and has fighting and poison coverage. Kabutops is physical and can boost. These pokemon don't outclass each other, and despite one being considered generally the best, it's not going to make it on every rain team, because some of those teams need traits offered by the other swimmers. This is a point that gets missed by a lot of karenfags when they allude to Pachirisu.

This isn't the case for swimmers like Lumineon, Seaking, Golduck, Armaldo, etc. Some are directly outclassed, others have unique traits but are still highly unappealing. They don't have a place on a serious team, they don't have a niche, and it doesn't matter how well you use them: you'll get better results with something else. You're not being more skilled by using them, you're just handicapping yourself.

This logic applies to pretty much every other pokemon in every other role. Some things are just bad and don't have any place on the team of someone who's playing to win.

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>>30513935
>Didn't want to use Garchomp because it would be too easy and I already used one in Platinum
>Decide to use Kommo-o since he seemed to be kind of shitty as far as pseudos went
>Mfw that move list
I almost dropped him before the league because he was pretty much dead weight. Boxed him during post game though.

>>30515098
You're not wrong. The problem is that most play is not high level play, even on Smogon. As you go up the ladder and actually fight the best a format has to offer, your ability to outplay objectively better mechanically mons with shit mons takes a nosedive. There will never be anyone good enough to make that not true over a string of battles with the best of the best.

But most people aren't really ever going to get there, and the scope of the scene, both in Smogon and in VGC, is going to result in facing a lot of middling or okay competitors. If you can get gud enough, you can have some fun fucking with them with objectively worse mons even if they could've also won with better mons or even won more often.

The basic foundations of the game is never going to result in anything else, but that doesn't mean people can't have a lot of legitimate fun and do some crazy shit, even if it's objective retarded, in everything else but high level play. People playing to statistically ensure winning over the highest number of games played aren't going to use shit mons, that's true. In effect, both the quotes are right in a weaselly no one is wrong way. Some one who is good can get more out of shit mons. But they're never going to be someone equally good using objectively better mons, or even be able to win very often against people slightly less good using better mons.

Both of them are right. Some Pokemon may not be as strong as others, but you should still try to win with your favorites.