Why didn't they just ban King's Shield?

because smogon is like 5 guys who jerk each other off and think they know everything about pokemon because they spend 18 hours a day playing ladder matches with boring stall teams all day

it's really pathetic and sad, or at least it would be if we didn't have to face the reality that these twats are deciding the competitive metagame

>>30494713
>>30494668
Fuck off until you can break 1300

>>30494668
>with boring stall teams all day
You mean "with boring boost teams", right?

Dragon dance forever... and they act like they're clever for using the same damned thing everyone else is.

It's another "I don't know shit about smogon or competitive battling but I'm gonna pretend I do" thread.

Yay

>>30494713
>because smogon is like 5 guys who jerk each other off and think they know everything about pokemon because they spend 18 hours a day playing ladder matches
That sounds more like /vp/

>>30494719
Come back to VP when you can place top 100 in your state.

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>>30494713

make your own simulator and develop your own metagame then

>>30494730
Cool. So you're in the top 100 of 100 losers who went to a "pro" pokemon tournament.

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>>30494713
>these people think they know everything about pokemon just because they know everything about pokemon

>>30494668
Why didn't they just ban Eviolite instead of banning like 15 pokemon from Little Cup that are "too good with Eviolite"?

Smogon are a pack of retards that have been in control too long.

>>30494713
We desperately need a middle ground. VGC doesn't regulate enough, and Smogon overregulates at the drop of a hat and takes forever to even consider reverting a decision. The worst part is that even people that don't play Smogon have to deal with smogonfags crying about shit.

>Baton Pass is limited to 1 even though nobody is actually going to fucking run more than 1 Baton Pass mon and anyone that does is going to lose much more often than they win.
>Evasion raising is banned even though most of it dies to a single switch move, and the best evasion raiser is literally hard countered by body slam, which a lot of pokemon can learn.
>Aegislash gets banned because it's too good despite the fact that it's only as good as it is because all of his counters are banned.
>VGC bans legendaries like Lunala and Mewtwo which are okay-ish but allows completely busted shit like Celesteela and the Tapus to run wild.

Seriously, somebody needs to bust this shit up.

>>30494753
Hey, sure beats pretending to win at something where you and your friends made up all the rules.

Real answer: because there's no point to it. For all intents and purposes, Aegislash is the only one that can use King's Shield (lol smeargle) and it makes no sense to ban it and keep the damn sword. Banning King's Shield would effectively open the site up to 'other' bans where they ban 'problematic' moves in an attempt to keep overpowered pokemon in the tier.

Smogon is retarded 90% of the time, but at least this was sensible enough.

>>30494769
Eviolite isn't what makes those pokemon busted in LC.

>>30494771
So there's no precedent of banning a move that is the only reason a pokemon is "centralizing"?

>>30494770
And yet you're the one complaining on a portuguese metallurgy forum. Cool kids don't let you in on their cool kid club?

>>30494719
What the fuck? You can break 1300 in an afternoon.

>>30494851
>And yet you're the one complaining on a portuguese metallurgy forum.

....right back atcha.

>>30494856
I'm implying these faggots are worse than that

>>30494713
18 hours per day so line 3 of their stall matches lmao

Why can't /vp/ create it's own self-contained metagame?

>>30494965
It did: it's called the real fucking games.

I gave up on Smogon in gen 5 when they pulled shit with the Swift Swim complex ban to keep Drizzle Politoed around for their rain-stall meta.

>>30494982
And the real games are imbalanced as shit, you fucking goon.

>>30494828
Then why'd they specifically cite eviolite as the reason?

>>30494991
Because it exasperates the stat difference that already exists

>>30494769

baton pass was banned because of baton pass chains. the top teams on the ladder for a while were full baton pass teams, I don't know where you got this belief that using more than one baton pass user results in losing more frequently than winning.

evasion wasn't banned because it's too good, it was banned because it's explicit exploitation of the rng that adds a large luck-based factor to the game.

with regards to aegislash, smogon holds the position that a Pokemon keeping other potentially OP Pokemon in check is not considered when deciding on a ban.

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>>30494989
> obesessing over balance
> playing pokemon

>>30495016
So what you're telling me is that Smogon will ban anything that calls luck into play, even core game mechanics. They also don't have the slightest idea what the phrase "metagame" ACTUALLY means and just ban shit that they think is OP when it's their fault it's OP in the first place.

So...where's the ban on critical hits? That's RNG based. Luck's part of the game. Influencing luck one way or another shouldn't be banned. If some fag spams Minimize you either run body slam to counter or get over it.

>>30494989
Except they're not, especially in SM

>>30494965
It did, a long time ago.

It was absolute dog shit.

>>30495009
This is why we need babies, to balance little cup

>>30494841
That's been their stance for a while. You don't ban a move + pokemon or ability + pokemon, you just ban the pokemon itself. Unfortunately, there's quite a bit of collateral damage this way (ie Blaze Blaziken and Torrent Greninja).

>>30495016
Let's not play around the topic. Smogon has been itching to ban Baton Pass ever since Gen 3 and has highly encouraged a stigma against it since back then. They're just happy they finally have a reason to do so!

>smogon holds the position that a Pokemon keeping other potentially OP Pokemon in check is not considered when deciding on a ban.

It's funny, because many of their members will say that Stealth Rock "helps keeps threats in OU in check" whenever someone asks why it's not banned. There's definitely some mental retardation up in their staff, that's for sure.

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why not just implement reasonable complex bans other than the fear of slippery slope?

>>30495070
Have you looked at any of the top placing teams in VGC? It's all the same shit. You're in denial if you say otherwise.

It's call overcentralization, fool.

>>30495016
>smogon holds the position that a Pokemon keeping other potentially OP Pokemon in check is not considered when deciding on a ban.

guess we better ban every pokemon ever then, since no pokemon is bad or good on its own and is entirely decided by context and what other pokemon keep it in check.

this is why you don't let man child gamers and children who are incapable of critical thinking design games. You end up making the game worse than what you started with because they aren't game designers and think banning whatever flavor of the week mon happens to be good at the time is the solution to every problem.

>>30495098
Because smogonfags are autistic like /vp/, just in a different way

>>30495065
They don't ban crits because "we don't modify the game" but they are too stupid to realize they already broke this rule with sleep clause

>>30494723
DD is spammed becaus it augments speed, if it was just another shitty attack booster like bulk up it wouldnt be spammed that much.

>>30495105
VGC16 was the only truly unbalanced meta because of retarded legandaries being legal

Also regardless, variety doesn't = balance

>>30495098
The reason isn't "actually" slippery slope, it's that if they do it for one mon/move/ability, there will 9000 other shitters complaining about X mon and Y move on said mon.

And they can't just tell the shitters to fuck off either because they already did it once this way.

It's just easier this way, despite what this board will have you believe.

>>30495119
At least Sleep Clause was used before in the Pokemon Stadium games.

>>30495065

it's not practical to ban every rng based element of the game, and clearly no one has to get over it since a metagame has been developed in which minimize is banned

>>30495110

calling someone a man child gamer isn't an argument

>>30495168
But we're not playing Pokemon Stadium, so that doesn't mean anything

>>30495153
that is not true

banning a specific ability on a specific pokemon is not complex enough to be used as grounds for moveset limitations and those outcries could be dismissed anyway (blaziken, greninja)

and even when you do get into complex ban territory (z-conversion on porygon in LC) that's an outlier case where clearly a unique rule is needed instead of banning the pokemon itself

there is no justification for a blanket "no complex bans" policy, they just perpetuate that mentality based on tradition

>>30495182
I'm just saying that it's been in the games before.

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>Bans shit because it influences luck-based mechanics.
>Bans shit because it's too good when other shit that would keep it useless is also banned.
>Bans good mons for being good.
>Bans okay moves for being spammable
>Bans using a fucking mechanic of the game more than once.

I've seen better decision-making out of fucking Konami than these guys.

>>30495181
>calling someone a man child gamer isn't an argument

nice strawman faggot, that wasn't my argument at all. Their only qualification for being a metagame voter is playing a bunch of games on the ladder. That skill in itself has nothing to do with the unrelated skill of actual game design and balance. They have no idea how anything they do balances or affects the game at all so they just ban shit they don't like without even thinking. No foresight of the consequences or trying to find solutions that make sense, just ban what I don't like.

>>30495254
In the end, there's no winning. It's either doubles, 3v3 singles which somehow manages to be even more broken, and this.

>>30495281
>3v3
>broken
Maybe last gen

>>30494668
Banning a move that defines the way a pokemon functions is unethical.

>>30495265

if you go into threads about suspect tests, then you'll see extensive arguments regarding the roles of Pokemon in the metagame, how the metagame would develop without the Pokemon, and justifications for believing why something is broken or not broken. a lot of these arguments are nuanced, thoughtful, and insightful. your claim that things are banned without consideration for the consequences is untrue, it's not hard to find evidence of the thought being put behind bans.

smogon develops its metagame for its community, and the players that vote in suspect tests are the players that are most involved in the community, and hence are the people most qualified to balance the metagame.

>>30495281
That's why I'm saying there needs to be some middle ground. VGC doesn't regulate enough, and Smogon overregulates. We need a living, breathing, and most importantly flexible set of regulations and restrictions. The only things that should be banned consistently are things that prevent a metagame from flourshing (basically, any time you go "is there a reason to NOT run X in literally every situation?" and the answer isn't "Yes", X should be banned). Everything else should be context-based.

>>30495356
You can shit out any tl;dr post on Smogon with a bunch of buzzwords and people will eat it up

>>30495356
Except what happens when the community wants to suspect things that are thought to be too powerful or broken in the metagame? Stuff like Stealth Rock, Scald, and Gen 5 Drizzle?

The council and staff simply brushed off these concerns entirely, and even now you can see "higher ups" arguing against even suspecting SR because "it's irresponsible and not even broken at all now". Great logic there.

>>30495356

Just because you play the game a lot doesn't make you qualified to make those kinds of decisions. It's pretty obvious they're doing a terrible job when the shit metagames gamefreak comes up with are more fun and deep whatever boring shit we end up with in OU after smogon is done raping it.

i have seen the threads too. it's always "I don't like pokemon" "Lol why?" "are you stupid? it kills your whole team under [unrealistic circumstances] if you play bad and only use the same 15 smogon approved pokemon I said you could use. get good if you can't see that". Then they all have a circle jerk vote where whoever screams the loudest that is most respected in the community wins.

don't try to act like you're some smogon representative preaching shit we don't know about. I've been to smogon since its inception in 2005 and it's been the same shit

>>30495416

moments go you were complaining about how ban happy smogon is, and now you're complaining that the thugs that you consider broken aren't banned. do you actually disagree with how smogon does things, or are you just mad that the community banned things you like and didn't ban things you dont like?

>>30495416
Can you even run a team without Stealth Rock outside of gimmick teams? Real talk. I'm not gonna say that Entry Hazards are the most busted shit ever, but most people I talk to say that if you can't lead in with either something that has Gyro Ball or something that can tank out a bunch of hits long enough to fill the board with hazards, your team is probably not gonna win consistently.

>>30495520
>Gyro Ball
Meant Gyro Spin.

>>30495488

you have no counter points to anything anyone says. Do you just like sucking smogon's dick? How much is smogon paying you

>>30495488
>Ad Homenium
It's okay to admit that you don't have a real counterargument or answer to their question. Nothing's wrong with not being right all the time.

>>30495453

i don't claim to be a representative of smogon, and I'm not involved in the community at all. there's a portion of /vp/ that hates everyone that plays Pokemon in ways that they don't like, and a lot of these people will accuse smogon of ruining and taking the fun out of Pokemon without acknowledging that smogon has no effect on them if they choose not to get involved and a lot of people enjoy smogon's metagames as evidenced by the number of people that play them.

smogon provides many alternative to the 3v3 singles and doubles that gamefreak uses, along with a simulator that allows one to play Pokemon competitively without having to grind and breed on a cart, and yet people will still complain about it as if smogon's mere existence has any effect on them if they don't use showdown.

>>30495551
>>30495590

you're right, I can't dispute your claims that the people involved with tiering brushed off community request for scald and stealth Rock suspects because I've never seen any requests for stealth Rock or scald bans

>>30495612
>smogon has no effect on them if they choose not to get involved
That's not how communities work. I don't even play competitive and I still have to deal with smogonfags telling me how to play the fucking game. Let me say that again, because it's an important part of my argument: Despite not even playing competitive matches or ever having an interest in tournaments, Smogon players are determined to tell me how to play the game. I'm barely interested in the fucking Battle Tree.

That wouldn't be a problem if Smogon's rules or their logic were agreeable, but they aren't. There's a lot of flawed logic and ridiculous rules involved.

>That's just a few pushy people! Who cares?
Except exposure eventually leads to acceptance, and thus spread. The only way to truly have it not affect you is if you completely shut out external influences wholesale to avoid it, or you aggressively stomp it out so that it can't attempt to influence you anymore.

>>30495657
Absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence. I think we've reached the endpoint for this particular discourse unless somebody else can provide a better perspective or evidence on the matter.

>>30495520
You pretty much need Stealth Rock if you want to win halfway consistently. The free damage to everything that's sent in is too good to ignore. At least Spikes/Toxic Spikes/Sticky Web have obvious counters.

Gen 4 and 5 were the worst because you had to force a Rapid Spinner on your team...except that not only could it get blocked by a Ghost type (Spinblocking), but Stealth Rock was absurdly easy to set back up because its distribution was so widespread. Unless your spinner was already good (Excadrill, Starmie, Forretress), there were only drawbacks to putting one in.

The Defog buff was absolutely necessary, but Stealth Rock is still everywhere. Unfortunately, anytime anyone ever brings up a point as to how SR warps the metagame, senior users just blithely reply "well just use a defogger on your team".

Because it's a poorly designed mon.

>>30494769
>VGC bans legendaries like Lunala and Mewtwo which are okay-ish
You couldn't be more wrong

>>30495781
>"just use defog"
>suggest using defog in a team
>"why the fuck are you using defog it's a terrible move"
I don't understand people. This isn't even restricted to smogonfags.

>>30495657
If you ever played through the metagames as you claimed, you would have seen a lot of calls for SR/Scald/Drizzle to be suspected. A lot of the drama at the tailend of Gen 5 was because the council refused to suspect Drizzle despite it obviously wrecking the tier. Calls for a Scald suspect went ignored through late X/Y and all of ORAS.

Don't even get me started on Stealth Rock. Even since Gen 4 have people been calling for it to be suspected or banned outright -- look through their Policy forum for examples of all three. I understand about the tyranny of the majority and all that, but there has been outright dismissal from senior staff about this shit for ages.

And now they're about to ban Baton Pass entirely, breaking their long held policy of not banning moves, and they still refuse to hear about SR.

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>>30495783
No one talked about Decidueye anon.

>>30495612
>a lot of people enjoy smogon's metagames as evidenced by the number of people that play them
Too bad popular doesn't mean quality, Smogon's popular for just about all the wrong reasons

I'm kinda curious as to why Evasion is banned.

Are the 60 power "can't miss" moves and things like Lock-On, Odour Sleuth not good enough? Legitimately curious. Is it not in enough movesets, does it lead to endless Minimize - Lock-On fights?

>>30495972

It's "un-competitive"

>>30495972
It's banned under the RNG argument. But Smogon thinks evasion is way better than it actually is, outside of Minimize Clefable it's a pretty shit strategy

>>30495972
Smogon is first and foremost an autistic ruleset meant to make Pokemon more competitive, make things more fair for players, and make it less about just having the bigger stat numbers and actually having to apply some kind of strategy.
Evasion throws that out the window. If some guy lucked out of winning a tourney because of evasion, nobody would be satisfied with the results, maybe not even the winner. If they won because they out-predicted every opponent and carefully made their choices, a lot of people would see them as deserving of their victory.

>>30495254
Elaborate

>yfw darkrai and shaymin-s are still banned, even though dark void got a huge nerf, is weak to mach punch and shaymin is killed by a single ice shard
>togekiss still spams serene grace air slashs in OU

>>30495972
>expecting people to use those shitty moves
anti-smogon fags are hilarious

>>30496160
Konami of America will ban cards from YGO because it's draw power. They recently banned a card that only gimmick decks were running (none of these gimmick decks got anywhere near consistent tournament results), and cut down an actually popular card to 1. Cliffnotes version on YGO banlist rules for those that don't know: You can only run 3 copies of a card in a deck, but Konami's banlist can reduce your legal copies to 2, 1, or 0. It's not a binary list.

Meanwhile, they keep their pet decks all untouched even though they've been on life support for about a year and a half now, when any deck that's been out longer than 6 months is usually on the chopping block for getting hit. Many cards haven't been relevant for years but could be removed from the banlist with no problem, but are kept on the list because Konami hates the deck.

Konami and Smogon could exchange notes on making retarded bans for bullshit reasons.

Still, Konami does eventually say "okay that's enough being retarded. Let's actually do some real work." Smogon can't even do that more than once or twice a year.

>>30495972
They really aren't good enough. I dont want to bother with the calcs right now, but they barely scratch minimize users like Chansey.
The new one smart strike is actually almost usable, but It still doesn't 1 or 2 shot chansey and by the time it would kill, it can just pass the evasion onto a more defensive mon.

As for lock on and odor sleuth
Only pokemon that aren't total shitmons that learn lock on are:
Genesect:
Porygon Z
Maybe Magenzone

As for odor sleuth you have
Manectric
Mammoswine
Arcanine

And then those guys need to actually be able to kill the evasion spammer afterwards as it potentially boosts again, boosts a defensive stat, or BPs the boosts.

It's not like something like sneaky pebbles which can be avoided with fairly widespread moves or mitigated by proper teambuilding. It does predictable damage and removing them is strategic if you choose to do so.

Facing someone who starts spamming evasion, you have to basically get lucky right away or you're fucked. Smogon wanted to get rid of super luck based battles like that. Obviously there is always luck in pokemon but they wanted to minimize it so it wouldn't ruin the strategy aspect. Plus, its just super unfun to play against.

>>30496263
I meant on the pokemon bans. I know konami is retarded already. I hate seeing my dumb non-meta decks become unusable because some meta deck used the same cards.

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>>30496263
Salty about Dante, Anon?

Also, is the gimmick card you're referring to Chicken Race?

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>>30496353
I decided to take some calcs of mons who would me "viable" users of no-miss moves for you against the basic Chansey set.

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 215-253 (33.4 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Kartana Smart Strike vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 195-231 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- 42.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Shock Wave vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 84-99 (13 - 15.4%) -- possible 7HKO

>>30494668
The real question is why you even care about smogon in the first place.

>>30496384
Most of the stupid smogon bans are already covered in this thread. The only one I see that's not been mentioned much is that you can only have one pokemon on the opposing team Asleep at a time.

>>30496413
>Salty about Dante?
Not really. It's a genuinely good card that I will be more than happy to see go to 1 so that other decks can keep using it and the BA meme can finally die.

>Is the gimmick card you're referring to Chicken Race?
Yes. It got play, but the decks trying to hard-in on it never made it to higher tiers of play and decks that didn't hard-in on it usually reported that it didn't help them as much as they'd thought. They could've slapped it to 1 and been fine. There was no reason to go from 3 to 0 overnight.

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Just a reminder that anyone who is against Evasion and Sleep Clause supports Stall. Both of which would become even more cancerous if they were unbanned.

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The existence of an organized metagame council makes me miserable.

Competitive pokemon is just a matter of choosing a pre-made team like you're playing fucking pokemon stadium, then choose moves and switches according to a precise flowchart, which will diverge only in very small spots based on whether your opponent chose a certain flowchart option.

In very small occasions, the flowchart breaks because of unforeseen circumstances (non-surefire moves, crits), but it's only a minor deviation, and you can go back to the status quo easy enough.

I really wish Game Freak became like Sakurai, a demon hellbent on scouring competitive forums, seeing what the autists use to ruin the game, then make every "competitive" aspect impossible by programming the entire game against it.

>>30496676
Why does the idea of people playing a game in the manner they want ruffle your autism?

>>30496590
Sleep clause was a pokemon stadium thing, not a smogon thing. Its a completely justifiable ban past gen 1 too.

Is preparation of rites or whatever it was called back yet? I want to play herald of perfection

>>30496624
Counters exist in the game for both of those. Minimize is hard-countered by Body Slam, which literally always hits a Minimized target (and gets a damage bonus to boot), ensuring that any Minimize-heavy meta would immediately become a Body Slam heavy meta as well. Other Evasion boosters are slower and/or have conditions placed on them. Can't learn Body Slam? Odor Sleuth and Lock On and other shit exists. You can also bait the Evasive mon into ramming your Red Card, which lets the problem take care of itself.

>Sleep Clause
>I have no ideas what Chesto berries or Lum berries are, and I've never heard of Magic Bounce.

Counters exist in the game for these mechanics. If you aren't willing to build teams that incorporate counters for these strategies, you are intentionally building a tactically poor team, and deserve everything you get. Suck it up.

>>30496676
>I really wish Game Freak became like Sakurai, a demon hellbent on scouring competitive forums, seeing what the autists use to ruin the game, then make every "competitive" aspect impossible by programming the entire game against it.
So you want people to say "Yeah the last competitively viable gen was Gen 5 so we're going to ignore every new game until Nintendo literally MAKES US play a newer game".

I mean, have you SEEN Meleefags?

>>30496743

Because it's not some limited audience of friends being autists in private, it's a group with enough influence to dictate how everyone HAS to play.
And I hate it enough to wish the game itself became their kyptonite.
If the game itself opposed them, they'd fall on the wrong side of the argument by proxy, they'd have to be relegate to their own simulated game to play like they wanted, forever banished from interacting even tangentially with people who want to enjoy the game.

darklords are fun

>>30496799
Good post, now go shill this over at Smogon and maybe they'll give you the time of day and shit all over your shitty opinion.

>>30496832
>le go over at smogon meme

not him, but you're saying absolutely pointless stuff and contributing nothing to the actual topic being discussed.

it's almost like people here are assuming that once anyone has a reasonable argument about competitive, they're automatically smogonfags

>>30496832
I'd say that I don't argue with self-absorbed retards, but I'm arguing with you so maybe I should reconsider.

>>30494769
>Body Slam
Fuck off verlis

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>>30496880
Topic is about Smogon, so I told him to shill his point over at Smogon. Amazing, I know.
Hell, it's not like his entire spiel is about the original topic either, Aegislash being banned and not King's Shield.

>>30496884
Another great post. Now excuse me while I don't build against Evasion and slap Body Slam onto my Garchomp on the off chance I fight against Minimize Chansey, sacrificing important coverage or utility on a shitty move just to beat this one mon.

>>30496799
There are only a handfull of pokemon that can kill a chansey with body slam.
Most of them are ubers.

>Lock on/Odor Sleuth
See >>30496353

>Red Card
That is assuming the pokemon didn't get passed Ingrain. BP chains are cheesy enough to do that.


So you're restricted to a belly drum body slam redcard azumarill meta to counter the chansey menace. Sounds fun to me. Who needs coverage anyway?

>>30496590
You are are the most retarded motherfucker in here if you actually think that the sleep clause is a smogon thing and actually bad. Fuck off.

>>30495533
What?

>>30496799
Again, sleep clause was not smogon's idea

>>30496590
Sleep clause has been going on since Gen I competitive in Japan tho.

>>30496801
>it's a group with enough influence to dictate how everyone HAS to play.

Play however you want with your friends, you autistic dumbass.

No competitive structure dictates how you play unless it's an issue where you and your friends disagree on how to play and in that case it's no different from shit like deciding house rules in UNO.

>>30496799
>Drifblim used Minimize
Nice body slam meta

>>30494769
because banning eviolite would negatively effect pokemon who arent OP with it. Banning KS would just affect aegislash. Think before you come up with some BS analogy like that.

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>>30496978
>>30497006
>>30496799
>>30497015
It's true.

The first Pokémon Stadium game, which was only released in Japan on August 1, 1998, features a tournament mode with two divisions: the L1-30 division, based on Nintendo Cup '98, and the L50-55 division, based on Nintendo Cup '99. The finalists from the Nintendo Cup '97 appear as opponents in the L50-55 Division.

Each division features a set of rules that would become standard for all console games:

The species, self-KO, sleep, and freeze clauses are in effect.

>>30496179
Darkrai is still sanic fast and hits extremely hard

>>30497015
>>30497006
>>30496978
Even if it was in Stadium, it isn't inherent in the games anymore. Only Smogon are enforcing it. Thus, it's a Smogon rule, even if it wasn't their idea.

Didn't know about Japan VGC enforcing it, though.

I don't think it's bad, actually, but everything else had already been talked to death.

you people are fucking retarded. Yeah nintendo made the sleep clause first but they dont even use it anymore you fucking faggots

>>30494769
LC needs eviolite or it would just be constant OHKOs Well even more than it already is

Also a lot of the banned mons were ones that got evolutions in later gens, but still retained the BST of a fully evolved pokemon. Thats the main problem with them.

Only ban I've had a problem with is Porygon. Fuck Z-Conversion, just ban that instead you cunts.

>>30497076
Thats because Nintendo doesn't have a singles format you fucking mongoloid. Sleep spam isn't viable in doubles, but it sure as fuck is in singles.

If you don't like Smogon's ruleset why not just come up with your own? If you actually knew what you were doing and ended up creating an enjoyable metagame then surely people would want to play in it, right?

>>30497076
Nintendo doesn't have a doubles format yet, hence the need for a sleep clause.

And oh, Minimize Chansey is apparently been abused since '97.

>>30497132
Dude, that would imply /vp/ actually knew what it was talking about when it comes to competitive. Reminder that this place was collectively beaten by a Honchkrow and a wrestler.

>>30497171
That was the football player on twitter right? I wish I was there for that

>>30497132
But vp is shit at competitive
I disagree with a lot of smogon's rules (trapping bans are retarded) but vp will not come up with a better ruleset

>>30496179
togekiss doesn't have a near-guaranteed spdef halving attack that hits extremely hard

anything with serene grace is retarded though

>>30497192
Yeah, I learn about it a while back when a thread popped up about it. He seems like a cool guy.

>>30496179
Better to compare serene grace to swagplay than to darkrai

Swagger was a lot more widespread than serene grace though so I guess that doesn't work either.

If ever someone came up with >le variety meme
in competitive, the 1997 Nationals in Japan was no different than the overseas Nationals, Worlds, and even the top ladder teams of today.

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I think the worst thing about Smogon is about limiting it is.

We have 900 pokemon and hundreds of moves to choose from, it's an astounding number that should result in enough combinations that you'd never face the same team twice if you were to play for years.

But instead we have smogon.
Something will be OP, so it will be banned. And its ban means something else lost its counter, so that becomes OP in turn. And you ban it. And then the next thing. And the next.

Until we reach today, where out of close to 1000 choices, everyone uses less than 30 pokemon, with 90% of teams made of the same pool of the same dozen mons with the same moves.

Pokemon is not about teambuilding or strategy, thanks to that.
It's just a glorified rock paper scissor simulator in which you win if you made the single choice out of the 2-3 available, then you win.
Do it three times and the match is yours, you're free to masturbate about how good you are at pokemon, even though all you did was inject a pre-made team and get lucky.

There's a reason why repeat champions are such a rare thing in the competitive scene.
Despite its aversion to luck, Smogon has created a system that's so heavily reliant on flowcharting, that every victory is pretty much the result of human-driven RNG.

>>30497270
you are implying that pokemon is well-balanced without any rules at all

>>30497270
That's true of VGC, too, though. Pokemon is not a deep and balanced game. It's got the balance of a fightan at the competitive level. The meta is going to be stale as fuck no matter what you do.

>>30497293
>>30497297

The solution would be creating actual rules (eg: you can't spam x to cause stalling) that ban SITUATIONS, and not blanket ban entire swathes of the pokedex because of some isolated instance of a pokemon maybe being too powerful on some arbitrary scale in some specific situation.

An example is how they fucking banned 90% of second-stage pokemon, because "HURR DURR EVIOLITE".
A normally functioning human being would say "No eviolite on this list of pokes", but nope, we gotta BAN EVERYTHING, CAN'T RUN ANY TEAM THAT'S NOT THE APPROVED ONE

>>30497326
Somebody already brought up in this thread that those pokemon were already suffering from power gaps, and the Eviolite just made the stat gap harder.

But you're not proposing anything that actually is better. That sort of thing would still result in a stale meta.

>>30497270
>everyone uses less than 30 pokemon

X/Y OU alone is almost double that, not to mention stuff from UU and RU is commonly seen in that tier. The variety really isn't that bad.

Also, people gravitate toward OP shit. This is a universal law of gaming. It's not exclusive to Pokemon nor is it something Smogon is causing.

And lastly, nobody is forcing you to play their metagame anyway. People on this site fucking rant about it like it's mandatory. It's not.

>>30497270
Just go play Anything Goes on showdown then, it's exactly what you're asking for.

Hope you enjoy seeing Mega Fug, Primal Groudon/Kyogre, Xerneas, and Arceus on every single team.

>>30494737
Absolutely senpai, how do I get started?

>>30497270
Thats some faulty ass logic. You're assuming that every pokemon, fully evolved or not is just as viable as every other one.

Smogon lets you play with otherwise unusable pokemon by implementing tiers.

You seem to be under the assumption that only OU and Ubers exist. There are quite a few tiers that will let you play with other pokemon. If you want, you can even play in a fully unrestricted metagame like you want in AG.

Unfortunately, people will play the best team possible. Thats just a competitive thing, not a smogon thing. Have fun with your 6 rayquazas every other game.

The slippery slope of banning counters to other pokemon was only really a problem last gen. Megas were a huge power spike and shook up everything. Its only reasonable that it took a while to become stable.

Pokemon is very much about teambuilding and strategy. The ability to predict your opponents moves and act accordingly is a major indicator of skill. Repeat champions might be rare, but you will consistently see the same names popping up high in both the offical and smogon's comp scenes

>>30497270
>t. Anything Goes

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>>30497379
>Mega Fug

I don't know how it makes me laugh like the first time every single fucking time
It's been years, goddamnit

>>30497383
That's a you problem, anon.Find out yourself if you want to make one.

>>30497326
>An example is how they fucking banned 90% of second-stage pokemon, because "HURR DURR EVIOLITE".
What in the actual fuck are you talking about?

>>30497383
>>30494737
>>30497404
I'm pretty sure you can implement your own rulesets on Showdown even. No need to make your own sim. I have no idea how they rent out servers or whatever they do, but I remember seeing some weird shit on showderp when the main server was down.

Well that's what happens when literal children plague the game and this board and jerk their 12 year old chodes to smogon because they think they are hot shit for participating in their garbage metagame. Who let these fucks get in control to begin with?

>>30497451
>literal children plague a game made for children
boi....

>hurr hurr hurr lets add rules to someone elses game
Smogon, everyone

>>30497270
So, Anything Goes in showdown is what you want?

Go ahead, it's a mix of fun and frustrating when you play AG, not the best tier but eh.

Lots of unusual sets and troll teams. Ironically, I learned a lot of unusual plays (and also how to counter them) in AG, which sometimes appear in OU or even applicable in Battle Spot doubles (dark void moody smeargle).

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>ITT: People bitching about smogon rules in a place where there is absolutely nobody tied to Smogon's decision-making.

What, are you expecting one of the Smogon admins to pop onto /vp/, see this thread, and go "Huh, this anon is right. We've been doing this wrong all along. I'll mention it at the next circlejerk and hopefully it'll gain traction"? Is that what you're expecting?

>>30497486
yes

>>30497486
That's the point. /vp/ is even more of a circle jerk than Smogon simply because anyone here can say whatever garbage they want and have people agree with them.

>>30497503
Well far be it from me to shit on your hopeless dreams, then, so long as you know how hopeless those dreams are.

>>30497451
Other people have tried to make unofficial metas. Smogon is the only one thats really survived.
You're free to play however you like with your friends though. Nobody is going to stop you.

>>30497468
Almost every competitive scene adds their own rules. Maybe not to the degree smogon does, but they still do it.

Melee
>Bans stages
>Stage striking
>4 Stock Matches
>No items

Brawl
>Bans Stages
>Stock Matches
>Bans characters
>No items

Street Fighter
>Bans Stages

Marvel
>Bans Characters
>Bans duplicates

>>30497523
Stages in Street Fighter are only banned because of performance reasons though

>>30497523
I'll give you most of the rest of that, but Smash having stock restrictions is for consistency reasons, not for any balance concerns.

>>30497545
I know, it wasn't the best example.
Evo 2010: In SF4, I think you weren't allowed to change your ultra move between matches if you were ahead.
Thats a slightly better one.

A lot of fighting games have similar "winner doesn't change" rules that usually aren't implemented into the games themselves.

>>30497571
The complaint was solely about adding rules to someone else's game. I realize why these rules are in place.

>>30497107
>no singles format
Confirmed for not ever owning the game. Theres a format for every mode.

How about we ban Smogon instead. Literally just use VGC rulesets.

>>30497209
What's the story?

>>30497914
If doubles wasn't the main format and if gamefreak actually cared about battlespot singles, they'd probably reimplement the sleep clause.

Are there even any official tournaments for singles?

>>30494730
>VP
who?

>>30496798
>Herald
A better card called Pre-Preparation of Rites came out, Ritual Sanctuary, and Cyber Angel Benten made it a pretty good deck that topped regionals here and there.

Look up Cyber Heralds.

>>30498184
Aww shit. Thanks man. I'll take a look.
I always used to use a deck from a guy on youtube who used the manly Joey Wheeler face in his videos. Can't remember the name, but it was a herald destiny board deck.

Sure it was a dumb meme deck, but it was fucking hilarious to pull off. Negating everything they try to throw at the d-board felt so good

>>30498242
>yugioh for real men
rip in piece

>>30498267
That was it
;_;7

Holy crap, this thread got immediately hostile, and I was just curious if banning king's shield would be a legitimate solution. I think the attack drop from king's shield is retarded at least

>>30496235
People use fucking Rapid Spin. Having something that can either get rid of buffs or moves that have guaranteed hits seems like a straightforward solution to evasion buffs.

If you think about it every sport that exists is applying pre-set strategies to specific situations

>>30498504
Rapid spin is entirely optional.
If you don't stop the evasion, you are almost 100% dead. You can switch into rocks throughout the whole game and not lose because of it.
Guaranteed hit moves and lock on moves are ineffective and poorly distributed. People posted the damage calcs and move distribution earlier in the thread.

>>30498540
Well, yes, but most physical sports have a variety of flaws in the components of a team that the coaches, teammates, and playmakers have to work with.

The pokemon equivalent would be never being able to determine or detect IVs, and to only be able to decide ~100 of your EVs, with the rest being random or nonexistent. Pokemon teams are all perfect, and any that aren't will lose to the ones that are.

In every sport and game, contests between those that are perfectly and evenly matched are always decided by pure chance. Pokemon's no different, except that in most cases being "perfectly and evenly matched" is almost impossible, while in Pokemon it's not only possible, but the norm.

>>30494984
That's the real issue, they just don't want to ruin "their" teams. Which are stall, which is fun. But seriously they force a very centralized meta and because of such they ban more until you are narrowed into a specific playstyle and it's a cancerous one. I don't just want to outlast pokemon, i want to use awesome power and feel the power behind it, having real fun. Not someone else's forced definition of fun. We need them to not be afraid of a more mixed up meta, because they are afraid they have to think a bit more in their team building. Creative team building dies in smogon, and vgc is just genie v2 aka tapus and rocket princess, but at least it's something different.

>>30495972
One of the big reasons Evasion is banned isn't solely because it turns RNG in your favor. It's also the fact that Double Team, a TM move mind you, can be learned by literally anything that can learn from TMs. So any Pokemon you come across can (and most likely will) be packing Double Team, which leads to you being forced to pack never-miss moves, which of course leads to overcentralization.

If Evasion's boosts weren't as big as they were, it wouldn't be too bad (One Double Team and suddenly your 100 Accuracy move is around 70 accuracy, which is not cool).

>>30494771
But they already ban moves like swagger and abilities like moody

>>30499600
Swagger could be learned by tons of pokemon
Moody is just the evasion problem with even more rng

>>30499590
How is being forced to carry moves that can deal with evasion not the same as being forced to carry moves to deal with entry hazards?

>>30499645
Because you aren't forced to deal with entry hazzards. Entry hazzards won't wipe your whole team. A BP evasion team will

>>30499698
>aren't forced to deal with entry hazards
>when they're so centralizing that they're included in most damage calcs because of how common they are

>>30496590
You've got to understand that after an American took Exodia to Worlds and embarrassed half of the Japanese competitors, Japan will never let even gimmicky draw power go unnoticed.

>>30498896
They just unbanned Hoopa-u who just shit on stall
I dont see why people act like smogon only care about stall when in most tiers stall isnt that good and dont have much more than two main builds
Also, most of the things than they ban are more anoying for offensive teams to handle, like, in ORAS, Greninja alone could keep most offensive team in check and people needed to play more defensive to not be weak to greninja or have to relly on revenge killer than have to give up offensive power to use a choice scarf making them weaker against stall. Then they banned Greninja, making offensive playstyles strongest.
And is not like OU is the only metagame, you can play Ubers if you want to use more powerfull mons.

>>30499821
I'm of the opinion that ProWinston was told to take a dive because Konami didn't want to hit Exodia. After getting all the way to 5th place in fucking worlds with a virtually spotless record, he suddenly starts making amateur-level misplays and making illegal moves? And both the Japanese opponent and the judge are both suddenly hawk-eyed and call him on literally every bad move?

Yeah, nah, that shit was rigged. I don't blame 'em, though, I'd probably have done the same thing. Being able to say "I took Exodia to worlds, got 5th, and had the crowd cheering me on the entire time despite playing one of the most solitaire decks in the game" is pretty strong cred. Pity he never really did anything ever again.

>>30496179
Darkrai is still sanic the hedgehog with Nasty Plot, it would shit on anything below Ubers so fucking hard.

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>>30499812
I'm not arguing that rocks aren't centralizing. I'm arguing that they don't NEED to be dealt with at the same level an evasion BP team needs to be dealt with.

Also consider that people may consider their own team comps when running damage calcs, influencing whether or not they press the rocks button.
People could also be trying to fudge their numbers a little bit either way by toggling rocks when trying to prove some point to other people.

I personally don't use rocks in any of my calcs because rocks are conditional. You can't guarantee they'll be out when that mon is ready to attack.

>>30497270
But smogon does the exact opposite.
If you remove the ban and tier lists you'd just be wrecked by eveyone playing megafug/primo something/xerneas/another mega and probably two of 5 pokemons.

With tiers of course you have "less than 30 usable pokemons" by tier, but that's why there is several of them.
There is always a way to use your favorite pokemon and made it useable as long as you play it in its tier.

Smogon doesn't like doing complex bans, IE bans saying you can use certain Pokemon but not a certain move or only using abilities on certain mons.

It's to stop shit like people begging to use Mewtwo in OU as long as it's physical and not holding its mega X stone IIRC.

>>30494965

Every other fan meta game turns into an even bigger shit show then VGC or Smogon.

>>30497270
But smogon let you do that
Ubers and Anything Goes are Smogon formats than let you play with anything. Ubers only have banned Mega Rayquaza, in AG you dont have limits

>every Pokemon that that can outspeed and ohko any of the common stallmons is banned

This is why smogon sucks.

>>30499645
Because if you lose your Pokemon who have never-miss moves, you're fucked. They're free to endlessly boost Evasion and there's not a goddamn thing you can do about it.

Enemy has entry hazards? Take the setter out and rapid spin them away.
Enemy has evasion boosters? Oh, you mean the whole fucking team? Enjoy using nothing but never-miss moves.

Stealth Rock is bullshit, I'll admit. But Evasion is a far greater evil simply due to how it's designed.

>>30500202
I don't play OU but that feels untrue

>>30500221
What if you lose your rapid spinner? and if the entire opposite team have hazard setup?
This is the exact same problem

>>30500259
>What if you lose your rapid spinner?
That's your own fucking problem for letting your rapid spinner die so early.
>and if the entire opposite team have hazard setup?
Then you should be kicking their ass because it sounds like they don't know shit about teambuilding.

>>30500259
Then they lost 1/4 of the rest of their team's moveslots and you'll probably win anyway because they lack type coverage

Its not the "exact same problem" because its fucking retarded

>>30500259
Not that guy, and I wholeheartedly agree that Evasion shouldn't be as harshly punished as it is, but that's a dumb fucking argument.

A hazard setup is literally a mon's entire moveset, and it very rarely includes offensive moves outside of maybe whirlwind or something similar. If you have 6 mons and 4-5 of them are setups, that last mon is your entire strategy, since hazards on their own aren't gonna sweep a team.

Would competitive be better if damage rolls weren't a thing?

>>30500337
>Would competitive be better if literally every match was a straight formula to have stats plugged into with virtually no variance.
Only if you consider "The stalest thing since 100-year-old bread" to be "better".

>>30500337
The little bit of risk makes the game more exciting. Damage rolls and lower accuracy attacks stop the game from being determined from the start of the match.

Would it be more competitive without them? Probably, but I wouldn't say its necessarily better. Light RNG keeps the game fun with risk/reward balancing.

>>30494713
Hey verlisify

>>30500047
and even then the ubers tier has restrictions
without those restrictions the only viable team is a baton pass chain ending with espeon or else a team designed to beat a baton pass chain ending with espeon

not the most healthy metagame

>>30494730
>VP
wew
>top 100 in your state
What state? Because depending on the state Top 100 is anywhere from mildly impressive to pretty pitiful

>>30500540
If the unrestricted metagame is flawed then its not smogon's fault.

>>30500730
Then the question is do you think AG is flawed?

>>30500884
As a tier? No. People should have a place to go full retard if they want.
The problem is gamefreak's balancing

>>30494769
>Evasion raising is banned even though most of it dies to a single switch move, and the best evasion raiser is literally hard countered by body slam, which a lot of pokemon can learn.
Re-read what you wrote and give yourself many slaps in the face

>>30496907
Hold on a second. I'm not one of verlis's dick riders but I can say that body slam is a pretty good move. Hell, its one of the only real good normal type moves competitively. Respectable base power, 100% accurate and has a 30% chance to paralyze. Its overall a pretty good move and even gives you a way of paralyzing ground type pokemon.

>>30501172
Its a passable move but I'd rather just take Return.
And by good normal type move, I assume you mean attacking moves right?

>>30494989
Then anything designed with it as the base is gonna be wonky and broken too.
What do we do, start stat buffing weak things and fixing bad movepools?

>>30497039
And anything to ever get KS afterwards.

>>30495110
Then why is Touhou Puppet Dance so fair and balanced so that all waifu us are viable (because if he hadn't there'd have been riots)?

>>30495972
>Are the 60 power "can't miss" moves not good enough?
Nope, mostly because of massive walls like Chansey being able to use evasion boosts and toxic stall. The only way to fix these moves would be to double their BP for each evasion boost the target has on it.

>>30496624
>Unbreakable the core
>Mega Medicham
>Mega Metagross

>>30494769
>Why didn't they just ban Eviolite instead of banning like 15 pokemon from Little Cup that are "too good with Eviolite"?
What Pokemon did they ban from LC?

>>30495152
Did you see VGC15 with the genies of healthy meta?

There were 7 different pokemon in the top 5.

The only reason Smogon bans things is because they're bad at the game, and instead of getting good they just ban shit so they don't have to. Banning shit is a dumb idea. There's no such thing as a broken Pokemon/Item/Ability/Move, it all comes down to skill

>>30504108
I always pack an AG team just for idiots like you
What bad players can use, good players can abuse like a motherfucker. And I don't want to think about what a great player can do

>>30504206
But you're just proving my point. It really does come down to skill. A good player with a team of bad pokemon could easily beat a bad player with good pokemon. It's all about skill. Nothing more, nothing less

>>30504108
Oh yeah, using six Mega Fug is so skillful.

>>30504237
My whole point is that when a good player abuses the broken shit the game becomes a total mess revolving around the broken strategies. The whole game becomes unfun.
For some games you do have to enforce outside rules or the whole thing goes to hell

>>30502686
>>30502518
Huh. Maybe that is the answer. Rather than removing elements just fix them...

>>30504355
A skillfull player could easily beat them>>30504369
>My whole point is that when a good player abuses the broken shit the game becomes a total mess revolving around the broken strategies. The whole game becomes unfun.
But a truly good player could find a workaround and do their own thing. It all comes down to skill

>>30506152
No, "their own thing" would inevitably be "abusing broken shit that everyone else is abusing but slightly more intelligently".

Sometimes I see garbage threads like this on /vp/ and think I got transported through a time portal to 2008 GameFAQs where people constantly post "tires don exits" and "every character is equally viable".

>>30497358
Let's not act dumb like people aren't trying to enforce these shitty rules outside of the simulator and disconnecting when someone doesn't give a fuck about them

>>30509073
They're the sort of people who try to play the boss character in fighting games and pass the buck onto the other player for beating their faggotry.

>>30498504
>He's never had the sweet satisfaction of a rapid spin KO.

>>30495972
Evasion is a pure RNG strat. A strategy that relies on a dice roll to win isn't much of a strategy at all.

The evasion countering moves aren't all that great at actually countering evasion (as everyone else has pointed out). And they're complete shit when evasion isn't being used.

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Smogon is honestly pretty good. They've got something for everyone. Tryhards can stick with the top mons of OU, while karenfags can pick a tier that lets their bro shine. And unlike VGC there's actually decent variety within a tier.

>>30494668
They should ban every move except for Splash, Celebrate, and Hold Hands.

All other moves are too OP.

>>30509959
c a n c e r
a
n
c
e
r

i just dont like smogonfags, smogon itself when kept to itself is nice. I dont really care for what they ban or don't because I don't play by their rules. If i want to use the kings shield then i fucking will on vgc, not that hard. I just really hate it when people shout "uber, you have an advantage", "minimize is unfair". etc because they're self entitled pricks who think you need to meet their standards most of the time.

If you want to use an uber and a broken setup, then do it. But if you're bitching about smogon as if you dont go there to check where your mons stand or how to make them work, you're a fucking liar. You wouldn't know what they banned otherwise.

>>30494719
>tfw today i reached 1600+

Now what? Do i let my self die or do i keep battling?

>>30494668

Banning King's Shield is effectively the same as banning Aegislash.

>>30498631
Switch into rocks, webs, spikes and t-spikes all game and tell me you don't lose because of it.

>>30512673
its still pretty decent without it, it just has to switch out more and actually fears pursuit
like obviously defensive sets dont really suffer at all and offensive sets can still be run with autotomize or just sd/sneak

>>30494668
It'd be akin to banning Psycho Boost just to keep Deo-N around.

The move itself is not broken/uncompetitive, it wouldn't be broken on most pokemon. Aegislash itself is broken

Plus it'd feel weird. Its ability hinges on it having that move. Aegislash and King's Shield are a package.

>>30499600
Moody (and by extension Swagger) was abusable on everything with it. King's Shield was only good on Aegislash.