>10 years of Sneaky Pebbles I really want to play Smogon

>>30465055
i never use them and have fun making stupid teams instead. im not very good though so i dont know if its rocks fucking me or my own skill, probably both

Play doubles, incognito igneous is A LOT less prevalent there.

Just use a team made entirely of magic bounce, then your rubber glue will make the rocks stick to them.

remove pebbles pls

>Stealth Rocks now lasts for 5 turns
>'Pointed Stone' hold item increases length to 7 turns
Did fix?

>reliance

Haha fucking please

Your bro isn't trash because of stealth rock, it's trash because it's trash

>>30465835
Everyone runs a suicide lead then.

>>30465867
Zard is a decent mon with a nice movepool though its typing is really the only thing that fucks it over.

>>30465055
Stealth Rocks are a cancer that's never going away since the top players love it. If they had loved Baton Passing or Moody as much as they love Stealth Rock, they would have never been banned.

>>30465835
Yes

>>30466058
It's no longer be-all end-all. It's just a deterrent now, rather than an omnipresent game changer. It makes the plays around SR more important than SR. This would be a good change.

>reliance
most games go by without a single hazard

>>30466191
Unless you have a fire, flying, or bug type.

>>30466139
Wait they banned Baton Pass? Why?

>>30466139
I'm hoping for the nuclear option. Pebbles of every type. I want to see the mayhem.

>>30466256
They banned you from passing more than one thing and are still campaigning to ban it entirely.

>>30465081
I wish Gamefreak wasn't still pushing that shitty meme format, else Stealth Rock would have been nerfed long ago.

>>30466139
Or Evasion.

Imagine a Smogon meta where Evasion is allowed.

It's ridiculous because Gen 4 was clearly the time to ban it, and no one wanted to because "it was too ingrained into the metagame to change it now", aka smogonfag tier leaders didn't want to ban it because it helped them win and they didn't want to cause drama omg. Gen 5 was even worse because they refused to ban Drizzle despite it fucking up the tiers.

They're not going to touch it, especially now when they can just go "oh well just run a rapid spinner/defogger" and shut down discussion, even though they're being contradictory because they're the same fucks that go "well I shouldn't have to run a phazer for baton pass".

>>30466293
That reminds me, did any of the broken Baton Pass teams ever not use Espeon? Because it seemed like that was one of the main reasons BP was so good.

>>30466335
Stored Power Espeon was too ridiculous on full BP teams, but whenever people ever questioned them about just using Haze or some sort of phazing move, the whining about HAVING to use them was really annoying.

In any case, as you can see by their Policy forum, they're pretty much only banning things they hate and won't ever consider things the greater community wants (as evidenced by the latest Stealth Rock thread, which is full of "this is highly inappropriate and reckless to even consider" arguments.)

>>30466443
I know that Espeon beat phazing at least because of Magic Bounce so that's why I was curious. I don't remember how the other teams looked like.

>>30466263
You know if GF ever introduced an Ice-type SR, Smogon would immediately shit themselves and do everything they could to get it banned asap while ignoring the calls to ban SR as well.

>>30466256
Big chains are super powerful, therefore;
>Baton Pass Clause: Players cannot have more than one Pokémon with the move Baton Pass. Furthermore, a Pokémon cannot have Baton Pass while also having a move or ability that boosts Speed and a move or ability that boosts another stat.

>>30466516
Not nearly as powerful as in gen 3, yet we just dealt with it.

Smogon weren't such clowns in gen 3, what happened? Why did they change so much?

We need a Fire-type or Ground-type SR. It'll change every fucking thing.

>>30466580
They invented stored power with its 20-860 power

>>30466275
It's more fun than boring ass singles though. A lot of singles boil down to the same "predictions" going back and forth until someone gets bored and make a mistake. Granted I'm not a fan of GF's format either regarding rules and such, but smogon singles stopped being fun about 5 years ago.

>>30466275
The ironic part is that it isn't fun since gen 5 where everything they did was for doubles.

>>30466516
lol if you can't stop a chain you're so bad theres no saving you, who are these clowns that can't handle breaking chains

It also weakens the team using them if you break it so its pretty much an auto win if you break

>>30466603
Shell Smash is the problem.

It fucking sucks that I can't pass around even Substitutes anymore because of a retarded rule.

>>30466580
Stored Power was easily abused in a full BP team, so it sorta makes sense to limit passing if it was so prevalent.

The real answer is that most of Smogon's saner heads (oxymoron, I know) that headed the tiers have pretty much left, and the newer staff is extremely ban happy against things they dislike. It's now resulted in them making extremely complex bans against combinations for the sake of keeping a broken element in tiers unless it's something they want to see gone.

>>30466263
>Normal Nephrite
>Fire Flint
>Fighting Feldspar
>Water Wiluite
>Flying Fulgurite
>Grass Gneiss
>Poison Pallasite
>Electric Embolite
>Ground Granite
>Psychic Peridot
>Ice Isopyre
>Bug Bauxite
>Dragon Dolomite
>Ghost Garnet
>Dark Diorite
>Steel Slate
>Fairy Fayalite

>>30466624
Doubles has a bigger copy/paste team problem than singles.

>>30466516
They'll do all this, instead of just banning scolipede, which is one of the reasons baton pass became so broken in the first place. If a straw breaks the camel's back, you don't ban the camel, you ban the fucking straw.

>>30466980
It's really stupid.

"Oh, we can't unban Blaze Blaziken or Torrent Greninja because one broken element on them makes the entire Pokemon broken!"

"Oh, we can't ban Scoliopede/Combusken/Celebi because they have other uses in the tier so we'll just ban Baton Pass because that's the thing that makes them broken!"

>>30466139
>>30466256
>>30466266

Don't listen. These people are clearly complaining about meta they've never played.

BP isn't banned. Baton passing speed+another stat is banned. Which if you'd been playing the meta before this, you'd know it was a good thing. All the high-rank teams were focused on setting this up, since it's too good. The meta was stagnating.

Moody is just plain retarded and has no place. Turn one, evasion+2, RIP.

Why DID Stealthrock become so popular, anyway? Was there some pokemon they really hated that it hard countered back when it was introduced?

>>30466443
>as evidenced by the latest Stealth Rock thread, which is full of "this is highly inappropriate and reckless to even consider" arguments.

Ugh, I remember reading that. Really shows how far gone Smogon has become. Those fucking ridiculous posts by King UU or whatever his name is made me legit mad.

>>30467144
>He says this but doesn't think Stealth Rock needs to be banned for the same reason.

>>30467150
Fire type is one of the best types in the game. Great offensively, and resists the second most number of types. Of course Stealth Rock became popular.

>>30466770
I appreciate both the dedication and the outcome.

>>30467150

It became popilar for the same reason that it's always been popular: free entry hazard damage against all mons, unlike Spikes.

It really is insane. The average mon switches into battle 3 times and loses almost 40% of its health.

I'm not sure if rocks are actually a good thing or not, but you're at an undeniable advantage if you're not using them.

>>30467144
What happened to the whole "no complex bans" rule? Why don't they just ban Protean Greninja and Speed Boost Blaziken?

>>30467218
You mean disadvantage?

>>30467211
I remember for the longest time that Fire types in general got shit on as terrible just because of the Stealth Rock weakness. Kind of overkill there.

>>30467254
Well, Charizard went from BL to NU. It really was a fucking overkill.

File: 1479369872652.gif (1014KB, 497x435px) Image search: [Google]

1014KB, 497x435px

>>30467307
>When the Charizard megas came out and suddenly people went into overdrive trying to shit on them.
Of course, they shut the fuck up after the inevitable truth set in.

Charizard hasn't even been a favorite of my in over a decade, it's just great to see smug smacked down.

>>30467211
>>30467254
What was terrible about it was that it was a fucking TM in Diamond/Pearl/Platinum and that meant its distribution was insane. GF seemed to catch on to the monster they unleashed and clamped down on it in HG/SS, and then massively reduced the ones that could learn it in Gen 5 and beyond, but it was too late. Pandora's box had already been opened and the meta had already been shaped around it.

Anything weak to it was completely fucked over in Gen 4 and 5. That's why you saw so many Steels and Sand teams everywhere, because they took minimal damage on entry. I would have liked to believe that it would have been suspected in Gen 4 had their completely fucked up Garchomp ban hadn't taken over a year to actually happen, and by the time it did, no one wanted to touch it because they relied on it too much.

File: 1478081205871.png (605KB, 1280x914px) Image search: [Google]

605KB, 1280x914px

The worst thing about SR is that it only exists for one type. At least finish what you started and make it fair for all types. Don't just fuck up types weak to Rock and leave it there. That's just fucking wrong.

>>30467406
Gamefreak probably knows it's too strong (but not significant in doubles so they're not nerfing it), and would be too scared to add anything else like it again.

They don't realize though, that in the absence of a nerf, the only real way to combat something overpowered is by moving everything else up to its level.

>>30467144
Oh please. There's always been a huge stigma against BP teams because they're so ~easymodo~ and it doesn't surprise me that smogon staff is happy that they've finally found a reason to ban it for good.

For the record, I know that BP teams were oppressive. I think the current clause is an acceptable compromise, even if I think it's a bit bullshit. But looking at their Policy forums, they're getting ready to just ban the damn thing entirely. It's doing that and not doing a damn thing about SR or other broken elements of metagames (Scald, Gen 5 Drizzle) that pisses me off.

>>30467307
Charizard was always garbage, though. It was only ever used in the higher tiers because of fanboys. SR just put it where it belonged for good, until its Megas happened.

>SR only damages 1/16 on entry + weaknesses/resistances
Would this fix it?

>>30467453
I think it shouldn't be able to hit flying pokemon too.

>>30467443
You don't know how tiers work, do you? It was in BL. That means it did NOT have a lot of usage, but it was too strong for UU.
And people call Zardfags dumb.

>>30467453
That and having Rock types automatically shatter SR when they come in would probably make it balanced. At the very least, it would incentivize fitting a Rock type on your team just to automatically get rid of them.

File: 1480187904180.png (244KB, 700x782px) Image search: [Google]

244KB, 700x782px

Stealth rock is the only thing preventing things like talonflame from completely killing the meta.

>>30466275
why should gamefreak push a worse format just to nerf sneaky pebbles

>>30467488
Talonflame has been nerfed into trash.

>>30467493
Someone should post that image of the winning VGC teams at you, but I didn't save it.

What if rapid spins damage increases if there are incoming items in play?

i.e. rapid spin base damage = 20
if stealth rock is up damage increases by 60
each layer of spikes increases damage by 40
toxic spikes causes it to poison the opponent too

>>30467518
>Smogon bans Rapid Spin.

>>30467518
That's an entertaining mechanic. Almost like the spinner is flinging the entry hazards back at the enemy team. 40 might be a tad too high for each layer of spikes though. I think 10, 15 at most.

>>30467514
>VGC

>>30467548
>40 might be a tad too high for each layer of spikes though

With three layers it would be 120. It's not high in a meta where we have spammable 120 BP STABs.

>>30467548
It's difficult for most teams to get down three layers anyway, so 40 per layer is fine. But given that most hazard stacking utilizes SR + Spikes, it would probably be too powerful -- it would necessitate the usage of spinblockers, and Smogon would probably ban it.

So +30 per layer of hazards would probably suffice, giving you a nice average of 80 to 110 BP.

>>30467650
>But given that most hazard stacking utilizes SR + Spikes, it would probably be too powerful

An one-off move isn't strong, that's like sayin that Z moves are too strong.

>>30467221
They always did complex bans; they just try to keep it to a minimum so the rule list doesn't get overly convoluted.

>>30466770
>Dark Doritos

File: 1449462077005.png (1MB, 1260x1500px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1260x1500px

>>30467218
>>30467244

Whoops yeah, disadvantage.

>>30467469
Might as well remove it from the game then. Flying pokemon don't need to be immune to everything. They already are to spikes and toxic spikes. The fact that the pebbles are great vs flying, fire and bugs is what makes the move unique as an entry hazard. There are a lot of things GF could do to nerf it, but don't take away its uniqueness.

>>30467881
being able to hit flying types is good
automatically making flying useless as a defensive type unless its secondary one resists rock is complete overkill

and there really is no reason it should do anything special to fire and bug

>>30467144
>Prankster eviolite Murkrow with perish song
Sit back and watch the forfeits roll in set up babies don't know what to do when you break their teams only gimmick.

>>30467435
They don't even have to nerf it heavily to fix it.

All they have to do is change the neutral, 2x weak and 4x weak damage from 12.5% - 25% - 50% to 12.5% - 18.75% - 25%. Just like Spikes' layers.

>>30467941
congrats, 1/6th of your team is literally useless against everything but baton pass
and that's only if they don't tech mr mime against your murkrow

>>30467980
Ah sorry I didn't realise that perish song was the only move Murkrow learned.

>>30468049
its still a murkrow, not much useful its gonna do

Did people actually watch high level players use BP?

>>30467881
>Flying pokemon don't need to be immune to everything

It's ok for flying to be immune to all entry hazards, not all types have to be equal.

Said that>
>poison type removes Toxic Spikes
>steel type removes Spikes
>rock type removes Stealth Rocks
>electric type remove Webs

There should be a lower reliance on entry hazard. They add nothing to the game, set them and punish the opponent every time they switch, be it next turn or 40 turns later? That's stupid.

>>30468243
It's to keep your opponent from constantly switching to a type immune to what you're trying to attack them with.

>>30466778
Introduce more pokemon. Variety will fix it.

>>30468068

As someone who got stomped 0-6 the first time I fought a murkrow online....

You know nothing John snow

>>30465055
Dude you realise there are now even more ways to remove hazards right? Things like Lati@s, Scizor, Gliscor, Empoleon, Decidueye, Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Mantine can all blow them away with Defog. Then you can also remove them with spinners like Starmie, Excadrill, Tsareena, Torkoal, Sandslash, forretress, Donphan, Tentacruel. Alternatively you can use Magic Bounce Pokemon like M-Sableye, M-Absol, M-Diancie, Espeon and Xatu to make them set up on themselves. In short, they have been given a lot more ways to be dealt with

Honestly I don't see what the big deal is. Rocks are easier to prevent and remove right now than they've ever been. There are more spinners and defog users now as well as a solid selection of magic bounce users that can fit on any style of team. It does kind of suck that pokemon with certain typings are pretty much unusable without hazard control setup but that's hardly the game's biggest balance issue, plus many of those pokemon would probably be broken without the presence of rocks keeping them in check somewhat.

>>30468243
So is your enemy just volt switch or u turning to a counter all the time. Stealth rock and other entry hazards puts that idea on a timer allowing you to punish something you couldn't really stop otherwise

>>30468706
>Dude you realise there are now even more ways to remove hazards right? Things like Lati@s, Scizor, Gliscor, Empoleon, Decidueye, Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Mantine can all blow them away with Defog. Then you can also remove them with spinners like Starmie, Excadrill, Tsareena, Torkoal, Sandslash, forretress, Donphan, Tentacruel.

Do you realize how unfair this is?

The opponent sets up rocks and I either spend a turn using a move that does nothing but remove it (and can fail in the case of Rapid Spin) or I just deal with eating a ton of damage every time I switch in.

How is this balanced? Such low risk high reward tactic is extremely uncompetitive, pretty ironic that Smogontards keep it around and accuses Pokemon such as Sableye of being "uncompetitive".

>>30468788
>punish something you couldn't really stop otherwise

We used to do this by using a move that can screw whatever is switching in.

But whatever, screw fundamentals, let's just attack and hope stuff dies.

>>30467144
>swift
>smart strike
>aura sphere

>>30469393
Not every mon has that sort of coverage and God forbid the counter be something bulky that can take that coverage and barely flinch. Plus people bitch about things like banning Baton Pass or evasion boosters but then the same logic I was employing holds for these since you can use taunt, roar or never miss moves to deal with this. I mean when ever it relied on solely prediction without SR as the buffer there also wasn't u-turn to give free chip damage for very little risk. I mean switching out breaks even for both parties if the prediction fails 9/10 times. But with U turn if you don't make that correct prediction it is always in the user's favour

>>30465055
>it was cute in gen 4
no it wasn't, probably one of the few thing that really pissed me off about the gen 4 meta

Don't play singles

>>30469363
Likewise, you set them in and your opponent chooses if they want to get rid of them, most of the time I don't bother removing them unless I have a volcarona/Tflame on the back or I'm playing stall.

Hazards are good, they fuck with stall and turn 3hkos into 2hkos.

I can't believe the amount of idiots that only see SR in a bubble because they are too focused on the typing and not in the actual use of the hazards.

These idiots need to wake up and realize that if they bitch about hazards they are pretty much stacking weaknesses and outright suck at team building.

>>30468364
That's not how it works.

>>30466471
No, and it probably would have a shit distribution anyway.

>>30465055
>I really want to play Smogon
But why

>>30465835
Allow me
>Stealth Rocks now only damage Flying-type or Levitate Pokémon for 1/4 (Or 1/6, whichever's more balanced) of their HP. All other Pokémon are unaffected.
Punishes Pokémon that can avoid all other forms of hazard. Stealth Rocks being effected by type matchups is and will always be stupid as fuck.

>>30469363
The opponent toxics you and you either have to use a cleric move to heal it or deal with the steadily ramping damage. Most forms of passive damage works like this you either have to remove it or take it. Only two forms of passive damage are healed by switch out unless you have an ability to help which are leech seed and confusion (which is random chance anyway) sure you can say oh but natural cure mons can get rid of it easily but I could say in return than mons with regenerator don't care about stealth rock that much or that Magic Guard mons like Alakazam and Clefable ignore them entirely. It's just a thing that you have to prepare for in team building like status and if you created a team with a lot of rock resists the need for a spinner or defogger drops dramatically. These support Pokémon are only a necessity when you are relying on mons that need SR gone like Zard and Volc. Just like you only really need Magnezone when your team can't handle steels not named Heatran

>>30466293
by the time people actually started to sit down and discuss if they should test sr in dppt, it was already close to bw's release date

in the latest sr thread, nearly everyone seems to agree that they should test sr early if they were going to test it at all, but once again the usual mental gymnastics come into play

>sr ban would be huge, so you gotta prove to me that it needs a suspect test
>fine, how about running an sr-less ladder to gather more info about sr's impact on the metagame and thereby obtain said evidence?
>'no'

fucking retards

>>30467980
Well considering baton pass was basically every other team at the time, you'd probably have a high general winrate anyway.

>>30469735
>Hazards are good, they fuck with stall and turn 3hkos into 2hkos.

This is exactly the problem. Stall isn't some evil that must be cleansed, defensive Pokemon shouldn't be getting 2HKOed so easily.

>>30469860
Except that Toxic only works on one Pokemon, that are some that doesn't care, and there are some that enjoy it.

By using Toxic you're taking a risk. You can be poisoning something that you'd rather inflict paralyze or sleeping, or, od forbid, a Guts user.

But there's no risk in Stealth Rock. Even if half of the opponent's team resists it, you'll dealt a higher total damage in the match with SR than without it.

>>30467158
>it's broken as fuck, but if we ban it then the meta would change. That's unacceptable, so living with sr is a necessary evil.
Those fuckers are idiots

>>30472610
Not that I'm taking sides but remember how much people bitched about Talonflame before the Gale Wings nerf? That was in a SR meta. Imagine how much worse it could be without that there?

>>30472610
>this is the same meta with fucking clauses
>this is the meta where you cannot use rest if another team member is asleep
>this is the meta where you cannot stall out a forfeit
>this is the meta where you cannot fucking use Swagger/Foul Play, a set suggested by the same fucking people for Liepard in Gen 5
>the meta that prefers singles 6v6, an inherently unbalanced format that crutches on checks out the ass, prefering you switch more than attack and spam set ups
You're not even playing Pokemon, just a shitty fan-made Pokemon game with tiers, do they have to be this autistic or can we all just drop the fucking pretense already?

>>30467746
>>>/m/inecraft

>>30472816
If talon flame was too strong then send it to a different tier.

Stealth rocks have a usage rate so close to 100% that every damage Calc assumes sr is in place. In any other game where people are trying to be serious about the competitive scene, 100% usage would itself be grounds for a ban.

>>30468364
No it won't

>>30472890
See GSC Snorlax, who also had 100% usage

>>30472842
>this is the meta where you cannot use rest if another team member is asleep
what the fuck
there's no way that's real
not being able to use rest

>>30472946
Look up Sleep Clause, which Nintendo themselves created in Pokémon Stadium

>SR only damages pokes switching out
Fix'd

>>30470369
You have a valid point that there are some who don't mind toxic specifically Guts Pokémon and Gliscor but I'd put forth that I could say the same about Stealth Rocks by bringing up Magic Guard Clefable. And for some resistant mons like Gliscor or Ferrothorn they can heal off that damage almost instantaneously. Virtually any recovery options has a chance to negate that chip damage advantage and there are ways you can preempt the set up. Magic Bounce, Magic Coat and Taunt all exist for this reason. And it is low risk but it is not no risk if the Pokémon is killed before it can be set it was a waste of a turn and a Pokémon. And again the value is dependent on the enemy team if they are running Lucario Scizor Starmie Aegislash it will not provide the same benefit as when they run Ninetales Golisopod, Volcarona Zapdos

>>30472890
So you are suggesting that Talonflame as it was in Gen 6 should be banned then w/o SR there? Since the only higher tier it could go to is Ubers

>>30472982
I know about the sleep claus, but I thought you could inflict it on yourself, you just weren't allowed to put two of your opponents pokemon to sleep.

>>30466580
>Not nearly as powerful as in gen 3, yet we just dealt with it.
In gen 3 Baton Pass chains were miserably bad. It has been like 13 years and people still try to do BP chains there for some fucking reason.
Gen 6 at least has stored power, Magic Bounce, Scolipede and similar shit.

>>30473234
You are right, this is exactly how this works, the other anon is an idiot who doesn't know what they are talking about.

>>30469363
>fair
nigga just use it too

File: cease.png (82KB, 320x353px) Image search: [Google]

82KB, 320x353px

>>30472842
>cannot use rest if another team member is asleep
You think somebody would do that? Just lie on the internet?

Also for the time being, Swagger + Foul Play is unbanned.

>>30468706
>Be forced to use an ugly airplane, everyone's favorite sweeper, an abomination, an even uglier abomination, RU trash, your mom, Smogon Bird 1.0, a fugly jokemon, generic trash, fugly femdom waifu, PU trash, NU trash, your own entry hazard cancer, your own entry hazard cancer AGAIN, or your own entry hazzard cancer YET AGAIN, or all your bug, flying, and fire types will be worthless.

>>30469735
>they fuck with stall
Yet Smogon still panders to stall, so apparently not.

>>30468243
Flying is already one of the absolute best types in the game. The only thing keeping it from being even better is pebbles and the fact that barely anything seems to learn flying STAB, which is ridiculously good.

>>30472842
>Whining about 6v6
As opposed to doubles where every team is actually the fucking same.

>>30468770
People don't want to be forced to run one of a dozen pokemon at most, to be able to make any team involving a pokemon weak to Rock. And hell, it's actually less than a dozen, because most of them are trash outside of their tier and can't survive to remove entry hazards out of it.

>>30465055
This whole thread is evidence as to why /vp/ should never be taken seriously concerning competitive battling.

Bunch of half baked arguments and theory crafting as usual.

>>30466275
>shitty meme format
You mean singles? Because doubles is the only good format.

>>30474654
I sure do love it when the only teams that win are all the exact same.

>>30474641
>Behead all those who criticize my favorite overcentralizing mechanic.

>>30474664
>le one format maymay xD

I sure do love it when stall is objectively the best way to play.

>>30474717
It's not a meme. Go look at the VGC winners, anon. There's like 8 different pokemon, total.

>>30467746
Fuck, this unlocked a hint of nostalgia in me for FFXI. That's what people jokingly called Diorites.

>>30474737
You're still pushing the meme.

>>30474808
Is this really your only defense? If that's the best you can do, then just leave the conversation so people can get back to Stealth Rock.

>>30473355
Mega Rayquaza is fair, just use yours :^)

>>30474832
There's no defense for a meme, friend. You can keep saying the same thing, but it'll still be wrong. Good job explaining why it's ok for stall to objectively be the best way to play singles though.

>>30474854
That's not to mention that if their team isn't weak to SR they're still objectively superior to yours. SR weak types aren't all that viable except in extreme cases.

With Talonflame now less than worthless, what pokemon are they going to use to defend the 'need' for Stealth Rock now?

>>30475434
Zard Y though Toxapex now counters it really hard.
Volcarona though half the tier can wall it.

>>30475485
Smogon and its grudge against Fire type. Almost like Masuda and Grass.

File: 1455912808988.jpg (168KB, 750x640px) Image search: [Google]

168KB, 750x640px

>>30474392
>an abomination
Fuck you too, Anon.

File: 1472010663647.png (230KB, 500x281px) Image search: [Google]

230KB, 500x281px

>>30469993
1800-tier OU placed here. (I won't share my name at the moment due to internal drama on the discord happening as well)

Smogon's higher ups are dipshits at times. They literally have a sense of empowerment, I mean they call themselves "The OU Council". For fucks sakes guys, it's a FREE replication of a Nintendo game, not the whitehouse. If the Haunter scandal should teach anyone anything, its that these people are fucking insane.

Meanwhile this generation has proven to a few of us already that not only are they incompetent but they're extremely biased. For now, Decidueye and Golosiopod are not getting OU analysis because "We sort of pushed it aside". Meanwhile fucking Vikavolt, VIKAVOLT is getting an OU analysis while Decidueye isn't (I imagine they'll give it to him at some point but knowing them they'll put him in UU)

As I check the forums as well, the mods have muted the conversation some of us had last night as well...including my own comments.

Smogon's become nothing but a hivemind of power, and I'm seriously convinced I should just drop OU this generation because nothing's changing and people can't fucking get past what needs to be made actually healthy to the meta-game. There are a few people who actually aren't that bad but as I type this I begin to remember the times I had my comments disregarded because I wasn't fucking perfect despite having proven my worth to the community before.

If Baton pass chains are so bad why don't people just build teams with stat down moves or use moves so pokemon can't switch out?

>>30475618
Did they give Decidueye OU but it's not good enough or was Decidueye placed in UU and actually managed to be too good for it?

>>30475641
Because "I shouldn't be forced to build to counter Baton Pass!"

Yet you being forced to build to counter Stealth Rock is fine.

>>30475618
>the haunter scandal

Elaborate?

>>30465055
You realize if you remove Stealth Rocks stall matches will go on forever, right?

>>30474887
Le genies of healthy meta neuter stall
Le tricky gremlin literally cannot be stalled to death
Any setup sweeper can punch holes in stall
Moves with >100 BP are the norm rather than the outlier on offensive mons

Stall has been dying since GF introduced close combat; regenerator and rocks won't save you against a decent team

>>30475704
No they won't games can only last one hour.

>>30475618
>They literally have a sense of empowerment

I've imagined this since I started using their forums during DP and saw their "badge" system, Showdown's "only special people can have custom avatars" post was the last proof that I needed.

File: owlsigh.png (370KB, 577x532px) Image search: [Google]

370KB, 577x532px

>>30475641
They didn't exist at the time (Decidueye) or they were banned (Shadowtag).

It also doesn't help that the "OU Council" apparently just has a hate-boner for Denisssssssssssssssssssss. this was also kept going by Haunter's insane lust for power, seriously if you paid attention to the conversations that he had before the ban the phrase "Ban baton pass, that shit's cancer" was the most frustrating thing to read.

>>30475654
They literally LITERALLY didn't decide yet, they just "didn't bother". They will at some point but considering he, Silvally, and Pheromosa are the most discussed its unprofessional as hell.

>>30475699
TLDR: Haunter was a key/famous OU player and council member and he was discovered to be hitting on an underage girl.

He was also probably the #1 reason Gen 6's competitive was total ass.

File: 666.gif (878KB, 500x211px) Image search: [Google]

878KB, 500x211px

>>30475666

File: 1479041513980.png (169KB, 600x900px) Image search: [Google]

169KB, 600x900px

>>30466980
I remember posting this til I was blue in the face. The obvious answer was always banning Scolipede.

>but muh other sets. Muh ninjask

Shut the fuck up bitch. BP didn't get out of hand until scolipede got speed boost. Ninjask had it in gen 5 and it didn't do shit. Ban Scolipede and they have to rely on agility to get speed.

This BP shit is the single stupidest thing smogon has ever done and was the moment I stopped taking them seriously

>>30475718
Literally not true.

>>30475739
Oh yeah, I heard they banned Aegislash but didn't touch Pheremosa despite it wrecking pretty much anyone that's not running Alolan Marrowak and/or Celesteela.

Methinks someone has a roachfu.

>>30475752
I seem to get a lot of Satan trips in general.

>>30475739
Oh lol .. just drama stuff.. I thought you were talking about the pokemon Haunter.

File: 1477609161731.png (344KB, 340x523px) Image search: [Google]

344KB, 340x523px

>smogon rules
It's like all of you hate fun

I just want to run a swagger/sand attack team against some high and mighty smogonfag. I love watching them have an austistic meltdown over shit that is just as easy to counter, if not easier, than entry hazard jew shit.

>>30465055
>he prefers switching: the meta

fuck off retard

File: 1478663732353.jpg (26KB, 409x360px) Image search: [Google]

26KB, 409x360px

>>30467406
>pic
Fuck. My sides!

>>30475777
Oh look, now the opposite.

File: 1463773461167.png (172KB, 350x336px) Image search: [Google]

172KB, 350x336px

>>30475753
Banning Scolipede wouldn't have fixed it because if you paid attention further that was beyond Scolipede. Shell smash and Geomancy were also key players.

Once it was discovered that it wasn't JUST scolipede it became obvious that the problem lied in the moves. The ENTIRE situation was the biggest blunder of the century but to put the blame entirely on Scolipede was naive so they overreacted and put a blanket ban on Baton-pass...even though this hasn't been busted ever.

I've heard rumors on the discord as well about some people wanting the baton-pass thing unbanned since Decidueye exists as a possible answer but don't count me as thats happening.

>>30475792
The rules are fine (To an extent) and in fact welcomed by some.

However the people who are writing these rules are the biggest fucking unprofessional assholes to hold a competitive scene.

>>30475814
>Swagger
>Sand atttack/double team
>Attract/mean look
>Thunder wave

Your opponent has disconnected

File: d9921639edd7bf84bb0d781f56beed5817ce6511_hq.jpg (82KB, 1024x623px)

82KB, 1024x623px

>>30475704
Only until someone figures out their win condition, boosts and sweeps.

Basically what we did in gen 2 and 3.

Full stall wouldn't be viable in a meta without SR, just like it wasn't in gens 2 and 3.

>>30466077
84/109/100 offensive stats are hardly worth mentioning nowadays, so vanilla Zard would still be never-used without SR around to halve its HP on the switch in.

I personally think that SR should only be learned by Rock-type Pokemon, giving to everyone and their mom's egg was a dumbass move.

>>30466256
Because every generation introduces more threats, and teambuilders have to diversify their teams as much as possible to deal with a wide variety of threats. Baton Pass chains, however, can only be completely countered by a few specific things.

Some teams may have these things and will wreck a BP user. But other teams do not have these things. And as the meta gets bigger and the amount of threats and combinations of threats becomes greater and harder to predict, the less likely a team will be prepared for a specific threat like BP, and the more successful the strategy becomes.

Shadow Tag and Arena Trap present a similar problem but for slightly different reasons. These things weren't broken before but over time, the metagame shifted to a point where they are.

t. malaysian bacteria collecting sim professional

File: 777.jpg (29KB, 370x284px) Image search: [Google]

29KB, 370x284px

>>30475777

>>30475882
>prankster liepard with substitute, leftovers, swagger, sand attack, and thunder wave
This gets so fucking juicy

>>30475839
Waah I'm clicking Draco Meteor why aren't they dead waaah switch the meta sux XDDD

>>30467488
>talonflame
>killing any meta above PU

>>30476009
i'm not the one complaining about the meta you illiterate fuck.

File: 1408241738577.gif (2MB, 605x327px)

2MB, 605x327px

>>30475765
>didn't touch Pheremosa

>checks smogon

>Pheromosa still isn't banned

Holy fuck, I'm done

>>30476069
We all know that you would if you had to think to get KOs.

File: 9e2Wx2Z[1].png (82KB, 1423x435px)

82KB, 1423x435px

Hazards incoming:

>Mirror Trick
Inflicts confusion upon entry

>Black Ice
Inflicts 1/8 Ice damage upon entry to grounded foes; removed by grounded Fire types

>Hot Coals
Inflicts 1/16 damage and -1 Atk upon entry

>Turbulence
-1 Acc and Spe upon entry to Flying types and Pokemon with Levitate

>Bramble Trap
Opponent is seeded upon entry

>Undertow
-1 Sp. Def upon entry

>Open Circuit
Inflicts paralysis upon entry; removed by grounded Electric and Ground types

>Fairy Ring
Inflicts a random volatile status condition upon entry

>Caltrops
Inflicts 1/16 damage upon switch to grounded foes

>Bad Luck
Foe becomes center of attention upon entry

>>30476115
I told you all.

Unprofessional as hell.

>>30476142
>Hot Coals
Literally no physical moves allowed; the meta.

>>30476140
yeah because it takes so much thought to switch in a resist for free

>>30476142
All of those would be insta banned.
But they would keep SR in

>>30476115
>>30475765
Don't worry. Now that Aegislash is gone nothing can reliably stop Pheromosa, its biggest and most fearsome check is totally gone. It's going to run train on the entire meta and get banned very soon. Make sure to get your Pheromosa teams ready and climb up the ladder with ease to drive the point home that it's broken.

>>30476190
>Hot Coals/Intimidate Houndoom new meta

>>30476208
Holy crap dude, was BW your first meta or something?

>>30476142
>Mirror Trick
easy ban, uncompetitive RNG bullshit

>Black Ice
Stays in, it's just ice type SR that can be removed by types

>Hot Coals
easy ban, insta-burn makes physical attackers shit

>Turbulence
easy ban, -1 acc = RNG bullshit

>Bramble Trap
really good, might be banned but not immediately

>Undertow
crap

>Open Circuit
easy ban, insta-paralysis for free = RNG bullshit

>Fairy Ring
easy ban, potential free Perish Song, Confusion, etc. = RNG bullshit

>Caltrops
This is literally just spikes. It even has the same name, what

>Bad Luck
Really interesting and probably broken hazard that would stay in because Smogon doesn't care about anything that's not singles.

File: 1480055013015.jpg (86KB, 559x938px) Image search: [Google]

86KB, 559x938px

>>30476142
>Bramble Trap

>>30476328
do you even play competitive? are you seriously defending a free switch meta?

>>30476377
>>Bad Luck
Doubles OU has its own banlist so it'd stay in singles and get kicked in doubles.

>>30476422
Yes, I started on NetBattle, when we would use Hidden Power Grass Tyranitar to get Swamperts thinking that they can switch in for free and Focus Punched Skarmories in the face because "free switch meta".

And what about you? Do YOU even play competitive?

If you rely on SR to punish switching, you're bad and basically proving OP's point.

What about this?

>SR Does what it does now but only on the first Pokémon to switch in.

It would heavily punish one switch and reward the user for forcing their opponent to switch into something weak to it.

>>30476142
Change Open Circuit to do Electric damage instead of parahax; Undertow should hit both defenses; Turbulence should only lower speed

>>30476377
>literally just spikes
I think they mean switching out, not switching in. Like pursuit

>>30476603
Would necessitate a resistant type on your team but that's not as centralizing as requiring one of the dozen or so defog/spinners.

>>30476549
>implying swamperts still dont switch in for free on SR
>implying being forced to run meme sets is better than simply having the option, which you still do

but yeah ban SR, everyone loves regenerator teams

>>30476694
>Completely missing Anon's point.

This is why I usually don't come to /vp/ for competitive.

>>30476656
If people don't care about resistances on it now, they probably wouldn't with this change either. It does the same amount of damage once...if anything, it makes it less volatile in every situation.

>>30476168
Wasn't that Mega Gengar suspect also handled poorly

>>30476819
No.

No because Mega-Gengar was overpowered as fuck, shadow tag disallowed switch ins (combined with Perish song AND busted stats) he had to go.

>>30476709
what point, that everything should run niche hidden powers to prevent free switches to your best option? that players should just spend the whole battle playing switch chicken instead of actually using moves?

>>30476819
So poorly that the owner of smogon reverted it and told them to stop that bullshit. Might have been a few demotions handed out too.

He would later create AG cause he got bored of seeing mega fug in every match

>>30476898
He's talking about the ubers one, where they literally threw out votes to get the result they wanted

File: sunglasses.png (151KB, 500x415px) Image search: [Google]

151KB, 500x415px

>>30476936
Oh that part.

That was straight up conspiracy-tier bullshit.

As a result, now we have "Anything Goes" but still, Smogon's corrupt as fuck.

>>30476899
He was talking about "if you have to rely on Stealth Rock to do the damage and punish switch ins, you're just bad"

It automatically does damage for you it's brainless. Its so ingrained in competitive its required to have something that creates and removes it. The unskilled part is that even if your Stealth Rock setter dies, the stealth rock still does damage beyond that. There's no counterplay to that beyond the Rapid spin/defog that while everyone should have still manages to be overbearing and limits team structure.

Punishing a switch-in should require prediction, you don't need to memebuild to do that but you shouldn't just be given a tool that does it for you.

It doesn't help that the OU council is so amazingly stubborn that they refuse to ever suspect it.

>>30469467
>252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 159-190 (24.7 - 29.5%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO

>252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Swift vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 51-60 (7.9 - 9.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever

>252+ Atk Life Orb Kartana Smart Strike vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 278-329 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO

>252+ Atk Life Orb Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Drifblim: 399-472 (79.1 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Just went with those since they are common minimize users. This isn't even taking into account that they will probably just BP the evasion and substitute onto a better pokemon before you can even switch in your "counter"

>>30474421
Either that, or they don't actually pander to stall as much as you think

>>30477144
Yeah, if you REALLY want to deal with that bullshit, Battle Spot still exists. People like to forget that you don't HAVE to play their format. There are several outlets to have your fun the way you want.

>>30469467
>just run these specific moves to counter it
spoken like a true shitter

If you have to run specific things to counter a specific playstyle that has no risk and high reward, that's not competitive

>>30477300
Most of the people in this thread at least, do play or do want to play their format, they just don't like Stealth Rock.

>>30477370
>If you have to run specific things to counter a specific playstyle that has no risk and high reward, that's not competitive
So like Stealth Rock?

>>30477406
You don't have to run specific things to counter stealth rock, don't be a retard.

If you do, show me what they are.

>>30477406
Stealth rock doesn't make the game unwinnable you fucking downie.
Max evasion does

>>30477370
You litterally just described stealth rock.

File: Urhurraka.jpg (79KB, 679x614px) Image search: [Google]

79KB, 679x614px

Stealth Rock is the second best thing to happen to Pokemon.

>>30477429
>What is Defog and Rapid Spin?

>>30477429
The only thing that counters it is Defog and Rapid Spin.

While they are simple add-ons to most team the fact that you have to carry one is still something that is enough to look into. When I make a team, "stealth rock counter" should not be on the check-list of things I need.

>>30477406
Stealth Rock in itself would be fine if it wasn't as powerful, however it isn't uncompetitive, just fucking annoying.

>>30477498
Shit you can win without running. SR will not hax you to death, Evasion spam will. Stop acting like you don't know what I'm talking about.

>>30477498
>What is ignoring the stealth rock
You don't NEED a rapid spinner at all.

>>30477519
>When I make a team, "stealth rock counter" should not be on the check-list of things I need.
It isn't on the list of things you need, unless you're running a team full of shit that's specifically weak to Stealth Rock.

and that's the difference. Only certain things are really bothered by SR. Whereas Evasion hax can fuck over literally any Pokemon except ones running specific special moves that ignore checks.

>>30477492
I too have an intense loathing of Bug, Fire, Flying, and Ice types.

>>30477527
>>30477530
You do if you want to use any of the four types above. That's just under a quarter of the types in the game.

The one thing GameFreak could do to rebalance the move would be making it stackable just like Spikes. One usage deals half the current damage, two usages are exactly the same as the current damage, three are double with a 50% HP damage cap because poor zards.

So what is the meta like in the actual game? Are they infested with the things that Smogon has banned? Double team/evasion/accuracy teams/sleeping,baton pass chains? Also does the actual game have a 6v6 meta or is it just 3v3?

>>30477519
>While they are simple add-ons to most team
There's an additional problem here in that not many pokemon can viably run them, especially if you're just looking within the tier.

Not everyone has a giant hardon for Starmie, after all.

>>30477580
>You do if you want to use any of the four types above
Yeah, wow, I really wish they'd ban Stealth Rock so Heatran the fire-type can finally be viable again. And it's so sad that Zard-X is shit because he has a SR weakness, I wish he could climb out of PU. And Talonflame last generation was such a letdown, it never got past NU because of that crippling Stealth Rock weakness.

Do you even play the game? SR weakness is barely a factor. You can run a defogger if you want, or don't, it doesn't mean GG right off the bat if you don't have one and the foe deploys rocks.

But getting haxed by Evasion on the other hand, can be an instant gg, no matter which 'mons you have. It's completely different.

>>30477643
Only 3v3.

>>30477567
Evasion hax is awful but still.

Its how much "freedom" the move gives. It's literally free hits you dont have to think about nor do you get punished for using because at the end of the day you're getting a fuckton of damage off over-time without having to put in the work.

At least toxic can be stopped by swapping to a steel/poison pokemon. What stealth rock does is become a chore to have to swap to your Starmie, rapid spin (and hope they dont pull out a ghost type) and then swap to something else. It's not counter-play its a chore.

>>30477655
This is why I'm one of the few people adamant that Decidueye is much better than he looks.

>>30477580
You can play those types without a spinner and without dying to stealth rocks. You just need to not be retarded about it. If you are running them, you might want to consider a spinner to cover your team's weakness but they are not required.

Evasion STOPS YOU FROM BEING ABLE TO PLAY THE FUCKING GAME. It is not comparable to fucking stealth rocks at all.

File: rocks-fullpage.png (354KB, 1349x3099px) Image search: [Google]

354KB, 1349x3099px

>>30477580

File: 1480193230459.jpg (35KB, 412x371px) Image search: [Google]

35KB, 412x371px

>>30477676
>I know, the perfect counter to anon's post would be legendaries and megas, not your typical pokemon of those types.
Really?

>>30477696
This is the most nothing argument. You don't even put effort into it. Just call someone stupid without justifying your opinion.

After seeing the reactions to Stealth Rock here, I honestly wonder if Smogon shitposters have ambushed the thread.

It should have been banned for a proper meta.

I always thought that it's not even a proper OU, but a game of avoiding rocks or dealing with rocks.

People have not given a reason why Stealth Rock is even healthy for the meta, and are just saying, "YOU DON'T NEED TO COUNTER IT." When it's basically free damage for every switch, bonus for type weakness.

>>30477732
OU by definition isn't 'your typical pokemon of those types'

>>30472946
It isn't. What is true though is using Rest then switching out so the rest of your team is immune to sleep.
Good old GSC teams where everyone had Rest and then Blissey used Heal Bell.
>1549 turns later

>>30477692
I was disappointed in the ghost type change until I realized it meant he could tell stones to fuck off.

The correct way of nerfing Stealth Rock is to have more moves/abilities that remove stealth rock since it only needs to be used once to get full benefits unlike spikes/toxic spikes which need 2-3 to get their full benefits

For a few example, Magnet Pull should remove stealth rocks on your field when a Magnet Pull pokemon switches in and so should Armor/Body based abilities.

Certain moves should remove stealth rocks as well like some wind and gravity based moves

>>30477732
>legendaries are good
Watch out, Mesprit and Phione are on the loose!

>>30477692
>have to swap to your Starmie, rapid spin (and hope they dont pull out a ghost type) and then swap to something else.

Or you can just ignore the damage and not do that. It's a very small amount, yes it helps whoever set it up of course, but they spent a turn doing it, it's not broken at all. And more importantly, it's not RNG based so you can plan for it.

And again, only certain Pokemon are affected by it. If your whole team is weak to rock maybe you're just a poor teambuilder.

>>30477774
Plenty of non-legendary and mega pokemon in OU, and Stealth Rock isn't only used in OU.

>>30477797
Nobody said all of them were good, just that a legendary is a bad example.

>>30469467

>moves that only like 3% of pokemon learn

>>30477816
>Or you can just ignore losing half of your life on switch in.

>>30477777
Waste of quints desu

>>30477809
Fuck off

>>30477837
>If your whole team is weak to rock maybe you're just a poor teambuilder.

>>30477777
>Charizard used Belly Drum!
>Misdreavus used Mean Look!
>Jolteon used Baton Pass!
>Marowak used Swords Dance!

>>30477828
git gud

>>30477739
The reason is that punishing switches is a good thing for the game not being a stallfest, and stealth rock is not nearly as game changing as some people are saying they are. A team is not immediately nonviable if it lacks rocks or hazard removal (but it really should have that for other reasons anyway)

>>30477732
>b-but they're legendaries
literally meaningless, not an argument

Go back to Battle Spot, shitter

>>30477824
A legendary is a fine example since they vary widely in competence. Entei is trash because it's trash and Ho-Oh is Uber because it's Uber. Stealth Rock plays no factor.

>>30477847
Oh, so you can't use your rock-weak pokemon at all then? That's what it amounts to without a spinner. Why is that pokemon there in that case?

>>30477824
TFlame, which anon already said, is literally the best example in existence.

>Route 1 shitmon (not a legendary or a mega)
>4x weak to pebbles
>Was used regardless

>>30477871
>good thing for the game not being a stallfest
>STILL talking about stall as if it's evil

>>30477896
on every team, at that

>>30477848
>Jolteon used Agility!
>Jolteon used Baton Pass!
>Marowak used Swords Dance!
>2 ATK because you forgot to lower its attack IVs
oh the nostalgia

Kukui is the only time I've actually played against sneaky pebbles because I don't play competitive at all.

I can see why people hate it.

>>30477881
Legendaries are bad examples because of their higher than average BST. Heatran is doubly a bad example because of its unique typing.

>>30477896
Talonflame is also no longer relevant because everything about it has been nerfed.

>>30477882
Yes you fucking can use them, if you build your team properly.

>hurr I wanna use Volcarona, Charizard, Talonflame, and Moltres on the same team but I can't because of evil smogon

If you really want to run a shitty team like that, or a team that has a lot of Pokemon weak to rock, you run a spinner/defogger. Just like how if you have a team that's weak to water you run a Pokemon that's strong against water type, or if you have a team that's weak to setup you run a phazer.

It's basic fucking teambuilding, if you really can't handle that then you need to get good.

>>30477739
>I honestly wonder if Smogon shitposters have ambushed the thread
Considering the sudden upswing in UR JUST BAD and SNEAKY STONES 4LYFE posts, I'm guessing someone whined about this thread in a competitive IRC, yes.

>>30477837
I didn't know Talonflame used Defog

>>30477816
Its still the principle that Stealth Rock on its own does more damage to a team than most moves in the game (over time collectively, not all at once unless you're fucking Charizard).

My problem with Stealth Rock isn't that its strong its that there isn't much of a way to punish it. If someone tosses Ice beam at my dragon-type, I swap to something that can take it. Then I'm hit with something that is dealt a consistent amount of damage on the switch in ON TOP of the ice beam. Its even worse if they aren't the rapid spinner/defogger since now they will be the ones taking damage next.

By using Stealth Rock, you're guaranteed something.

>>30477795
Give everyone and their mom rapid spin/defog just like everyone and their mom has stealth rock.

>>30477692
>swap out to your starmie
or your
>Lati@s
>Mew
>Scizor
>Skarmory
>Tapu Fini
>Mandibuzz
>Kartana
>Mantine
>Excadrill

>>30477882
Thats a bit of a fucking leap, you retard.
If you're weak to something cover your weaknesses.
>Wow are you saying I can't run a team of 6 parasects because these disgusting fire types are allowed in the meta
Thats what you fucking sound like.

>>30474392
Or just not run stealth rock weak Pokemon. And yeah you don't even know what is good if you are just discounting Mantine for no reason

>>30477928
>Talonflame is also no longer relevant because everything about it has been nerfed.

I guess that 3 year streak of being one of the most versatile mons in OU isn't relevant to the discussion about pebbles affecting the usage of certain mons haha

>>30477935
>Yes you fucking can use them
>Switch in with half life
>Now ridiculously frail
No, you really can't.

>>30478003
>If you're weak to something cover your weaknesses.
That works with pokemon. That doesn't work with an entry hazard because you can't remove or mitigate it without Rapid Spin or defog. It doesn't fade away.

File: 1480406523869.jpg (33KB, 591x352px)

33KB, 591x352px

>>30472842

>Not understanding what the rules are and why they're in place and complaining about them anyway

>>30477928
>Slaking: 670 BST
>Regigigas: 670 BST
>Aegislash: 520 BST
>Talonflame: 499 BST
Okay we've debunked typing, legendary/pseudo status, and BST now. What next?

>>30477928
Are you seriously going for the angle that Stealth Rock makes entire types that are weak to rock unviable?

What about:
Dragonite
Mega Charizard X/Y
Mega Pinsir
Thundrus
Tornadus-T
Zapdos
Kyurem-Black
Weavile
Volcanion
Pheromosa
Mega Heracross
Buzzwole
Mega Salamence

I could go on but I think you get the point. That argument holds no water.

And if you want to twist the argument into "w-well SR makes other stuff less viable", that's not a valid argument either. The point of banning things isn't to make more stuff viable, it's to make the game more competitive and fun. Otherwise Will-O-Wisp would be banned so more physical attackers were viable, and they'd ban King's Shield just to keep Aegislash in, oh or maybe ban Gunk Shot on Greninja so fairies are viable, or ban Speed Boost on Blaziken only. It's a shitty slippery slope.

>>30478025
If you want to argue about the past, you're forgetting its ridiculous Hidden Ability.

>>30478072
>Ignoring its ability
>Ignoring its ability
>Ignoring its ability
>Ignoring its ability
It's almost like having a unique ability is a complete game changer that not every pokemon has.

>>30477492
best is mega fug?

>>30478066
>No, you really can't.
Yes you can, if you build your team properly.

I'm just going to start redirecting you to old posts because you're ignoring stuff I said so you have an easier strawman to attack.

See >>30477935

>>30477957
>there isn't much of a way to punish it.
It's a free turn. Doesn't get much easier to punish than that. if the foe clicks rocks at the wrong time, you might win the game right then and there.

Of course a good player would never do that, but in that case, isn't the problem not that the move has no risk but that the players you're facing are good at mitigating that risk?

>>30478104
Shedinja has a unique ability and is trash
Weavile is a frail Ice type with Pressure and is good

what next

>>30477957
There are ways to counter it though. Rock setters are usually super fucking obvious. You can switch in your defogger before they can set their rocks up. You can also just punish them instead since stealth rock doesn't do damage initially. You'll at least end up popping their focus sash if they are a suicide lead or something.

>>30478066
>Can't mitigate
>Taunt
>Magic Bounce
>Magic coat
>Trick AV

File: cb1.png (145KB, 500x666px) Image search: [Google]

145KB, 500x666px

And THIS is why Smogon is cancerous. It's not the fact that there are an agreed set of rules, but the fact that the top people GET to make the rules to their liking, which means they get to control HOW they remain being on the top.

>>30478130
>if you build your team properly.
Okay, let's see about the post you linked again.

>>30477935
>If you really want to run a shitty team like that, or a team that has a lot of Pokemon weak to rock,
Oh, I see, but what's the problem here? Oh, I know. This conversation was stemming from:

>>30477816
And this part of the argument was entirely about your side trying to push that Rapid Spin/Defog wasn't necessary for those types.

So which is it?

>>30465081
>LE PROTECT MEME :^)
I just want a meta without mememoves like SR and Protect.

>>30478104
>It's almost like having a unique ability is a complete game changer that not every pokemon has.

Yes, good mons can thrive in any environment, which is why Talonflame was OU for 3 years when rock types existed?

>>30477935
>WHAT'S WRONG JUST USE STARMIE ON EVERY FUCKING TEAM

>>30472946
>>30477777
None of this is true, the rule is that only one Pokemon may be put to sleep by the foe. Using rest has zero effect on what your opponent is allowed to do. You can theoretically have your whole team asleep if you used Rest enough times, and you foe could still spam Spore in case you wake up.

>Stealth Rock is banned
>frail Flying types/Levitate users with a Focus Sash and endless switching: the meta

>>30478024
So don't use 4 types at all.

>>30478161
Oops it would have to be switcheroo AV since lopunny doesn't learn trick. Same shit though

>>30478156
So is Slaking and Regigas. What's your point? Nobody said a game changer was always good.

>>30478190
Yet Talonflame is not a good example of your typical 4x rock weak pokemon because it has something unique to it. That's the point.

>>30478209
Is it? I recall Rest+switching making you immune to sleep back during NetBattle times (and how someone scorned me for doing it once), maybe it was a bug with the program then.
>the more you know.jpg

>>30478168
You become a top person by gitting gud. If you can't git gud then you shouldn't be deciding shit.

File: Hapu.png (87KB, 400x400px) Image search: [Google]

87KB, 400x400px

>>30478123
Hydreigon

>>30478297
gitting gud by Smogon standards*

>>30478297
Ironically the only way to "git gud" is to use their standards...which are used to control anything.

This is of course ignoring that they can just throw out your vote or manipulate what ranked people get to vote.

>>30478347
Getting past a certain rank on the ladder *
If you don't care about gitting gud on the smogon ladder then why in the fuck would you care about smogon's rules?

>Rock type poke destroys it on entry

>4x and 2x weak to rock mons now take the same amount of damage at 25%.

>>30478408
You only need the first one.

>>30478184
>your side trying to push that Rapid Spin/Defog wasn't necessary for those types.
Except I literally never said that. Let me say the same thing over again but more slowly, maybe you'll understand this time.

The original argument was about whether Evasion moves/abilities like Minimize or Moody are balanced, and claimed that banning those but not banning SR was hypocrisy, because they're both cancer and equally banworthy >>30466139

However, this is completely wrong, because, as I said, while Stealth Rock is dangerous to certain specific teams that are built with specific Pokemon species weak to Stealth Rock, and can be RELIABLY mitigated by running Rapid Spin/Defog, evasion spam can be dangerous for teams with ANY Pokemon species, and whether or not Evasion actually takes effect is a matter of RNG, which is uncompetitive in nature.

Furthermore, while evasion can easily lose you an entire game thanks to multiple misses, Stealth Rock will only matter to the outcome of a game if it was either already very close and the damage tipped it over the edge, or you specifically built a team that was weak to Stealth Rock.

I said that running Rapid Spin/Defog is not necessary on every team in a meta where Stealth Rock is legal. Most teams don't have a defogger at all and win games just fine. But if you DO run a team that is weak to Stealth Rock, you're going to want a defogger. Just like any weakness, you should put other Pokemon on your team to mitigate it.

Now you will reply to me, misrepresent my argument again, and attack that, and I will reply with a repost of the same things you refuse to acknowledge. You will keep being a shitter and Stealth Rock will never be banned. Have fun.

>>30478267
You've yet to explain Weavile; which is weak to rocks, has a useless ability, isn't a legendary/pseudo, and has a low BST.

>>30478161
>Taunt
More than the two below, this requires you to ALREADY have the pokemon out when the setter in and predict the SR or you're permanently fucked. Not a good counter.

>Magic Bounce
Yeah let me just lead with Espeon in OU.

>Magic Coat
Sure do love fucking Starmie.

>>30478270
Yeah it doesn't happen anymore. It was never intentional afaik.

>>30478386
The most important thing is to have fun on what you're competing.

I don't have to be a worlds player to shit on VGC16, it's pretty a common opinion.

Same thing with SR. Many people want it tested or banned.

>>30478187
i dont want protect removed it adds alot to doubles

>>30478386
>trying to get good with rules a bunch of circlejerkers that manipulate the meta for themselves and have pawns on /vp/ debate for them

>>30478374

File: xd.jpg (47KB, 445x383px) Image search: [Google]

47KB, 445x383px

>>30478199
>My entire team is weak to this move
>better lobby to have it banned instead of rebuilding my team!

WAAH EARTHQUAKE BANNED WHEN? MY ELECTRIC TYPE TEAM CAN'T HANDLE THIS, WTF I LOSE SO MUCH HEALTH THIS IS BROKEN

>>30478267
What does 'Your typical 4x rock weak pokemon' mean?

>>30478456
not the guy you're replying to but you realize that it's not gg once the opponent gets rocks up, right? You don't absolutely have to stop them from setting them up. They just gave you a free turn to do anything you want, you can seize the initiative and win.
If Stealth Rock is really wreaking that much havoc on your team, have you considered rebuilding it?

>>30478449
Because it's a glass cannon and was going to die to any single hit in the first place. A quarter of its health doesn't matter to it. Weavile is, however, a fast ice type with high attack, meaning its one of the best offensive types.

>>30478509
The average pokemon with a 4x weakness to rocks. One that isn't a 'special' pokemon by being a legendary or mega.

>>30478493
>These four types are useless unless I run the handful of viable spinners alongside them.
>This isn't centralizing at all.

>>30478493

The problem with SR is that it makes entire types much less viable than they would be otherwise due to it's omnipresence.

I have never not run two spinners or defoggers since gen 4 existed so no I don't have trouble with pebbles wrecking my team, but SR does centralize the meta by excluding a ton of flying and fire anything from participating.

>>30478456
The previous poster said there was no way to mitigate it. There are ways to mitigate it.

Espeon is still usable in OU despite being UU.
M-Sableye is also unbanned.
There are other pokemon that learn Magic Coat in OU too. Why does starmie trigger you so much?

>>30478468
There was a OU [No SR] Gamemode for a long time. It was shit and nobody played it.

File: 1468283320765.png (345KB, 500x560px) Image search: [Google]

345KB, 500x560px

>>30478386
>then why in the fuck would you care about smogon's rules?
Not that same anon but I'm going to drop the ball as to why so many people care about smogon:

They're influence is astoundingly large.

Smogon's rules are so far reaching, add on the history/brand to it allow for it to be one of the most overbearing and almost "standard" of a community accepted meta. As well as them being considered the most "balanced"

What people here want is a meta without Stealth Rocks, however in order to climb and use the most powerful stuff, you have to utilize their own power to say "this isn't healthy for the game". Even IF you could climb that high, you still have to take into account the fact that Smogon is corrupt as fuck, run by like 10 people at random parts of the internet who have a god-complex that if anything challenges their view on how the game should be healthy its banned or nerfed in the least professional and painfully wrong way as possible.

Even if we took on the Slippery slopes the concept of 10 people actually having power and utilizing it in the least responsible way is more than enough to make the "Yeah Smogon are a bunch of faggots" meme come to life.

This isn't even JUST an issue about Stealth Rocks at this point, its solely about the people in charge and how there is nothing anyone can really do about it considering how much corruption and bullshit is required to stomach getting even 1/72nd of an opinion in their system.

I said earlier in the thread I've considered dropping OU but now its becoming more obvious as this thread goes on how much Im reminded of the worst part of this fucking competitive. I absolutely love competitive but I hate how poorly its handled/received to the point that UU is a much MUCH more fun looking tier to play around in. At least in UU the drama doesn't seem to come down to "I dont like it therefore its unhealthy" like most of the OU meta-game has been.

The fact that Pheromosa STILL hasn't been banned yet is enough.

>>30477910
Actually I just don't think it should be pushed significantly in a direction that's good for stall from where it is now. I use plenty of stall myself

Anybody who does the following is a full blown faggot loser who needs to die

>uses stealth rock
>uses Pokemon he hates just to win
>hacks his pokemon
>posts on smogon forums
>tosses aside his bros in sun/moon for competitive mons

>>30478574
So what you're saying is Weavile is good despite all those other things? Glad we've decided SR isn't a big deal then.

I never understood how it wasn't considered centralizing. You can't use certain types because of them and you NEED a rapid spinner. If weather was centralizing, the stones are too. I've been of the opinion for almost a decade that these things should be banned

>>30478607
>These four types are useless without a spinner
No they aren't. You're being willfully ignorant at this point.

>>30478630
see one post above you
>There was a OU [No SR] Gamemode for a long time. It was shit and nobody played it.

>>30478616
>The problem with SR is that it makes entire types much less viable than they would be otherwise due to it's omnipresence.
The problem with Earthquake is that it makes entire types much less viable than they would be otherwise due to its omnipresence.

The problem with Scald and Hydro Pump is that they make entire types much less viable than they would be otherwise due to their omnipresence.

Do you see why that's not a valid argument? Even if your fantasy scenario of all fire and flying and bug and ice types not being viable were true, it wouldn't matter. Things don't get banned because they make other things less viable. That's not the object of bans. Stop using that train of thought, it won't get you anywhere.

>>30478442
That post is saying that, if Smogon was in love with those strategies as much as they are Stealth Rock, they wouldn't be banned. This is an entirely different point than what you think it is. No comparison was made on whether Baton Passing and Evasion were JUST as bad. It was a criticism of Smogon users based on the perception that they don't ban strategies they personally favor no matter how unbalanced.

>>30478686
>didn't read

This isn't even JUST an issue about Stealth Rocks at this point, its solely about the people in charge and how there is nothing anyone can really do about it considering how much corruption and bullshit is required to stomach getting even 1/72nd of an opinion in their system.

>>30478607
>>These four types are useless
they're literally not, see >>30478098

Inb4 you move the goalposts

>>30478574
There are many pokemon with 4x weakness to rock that serve entirely different roles with different abilities and stats.

What would be the average?

File: Ultra Casual.png (529KB, 465x580px) Image search: [Google]

529KB, 465x580px

>>30478673
>making friends with 0s and 1s

>>30478442
>Just like any weakness, you should put other Pokemon on your team to mitigate it.
If I need to counter an electric type, I can put almost any ground type on my team.

If I need to counter stealth rock, I have 2, maybe 3 pokemon I can choose from per tier.

They aren't comparable.

>>30478574
So, at first you said
>SR makes these four types unviable
Then you said
>w-well unless they're legendaries
And then it was
>Or, uh, megas too!
And then
>Oh and if they have high BST they're also fine
And now it's
>well if the Pokemon is viable already because it's good then it doesn't matter

So basically you admit SR isn't a big deal unless you're trying to stack your team with shitmons? I'm glad we see eye to eye now.

>>30478677
SR is a big deal. It renders many pokemon non-viable who otherwise would be, and requires the rest to run Rapid Spin. That a 2x weak glass cannon can do fine is meaningless to mons utilized in any other way or those with 4x weakness.

>>30478795
Literally what would be viable without sr?

>>30478746
Except most of the time you don't "need" to counter Stealth Rock at all, it's not a Pokemon or a move, it's not going to wall you or OHKO you. You can't use it as a win condition. At worst it deals 50% damage but most of the time it's just insignificant chip damage.

You're right when you say it isn't comparable, but in a different way - Stealth Rock isn't nearly as good as you think it is.

>>30478823
my bro Oricoribro

>>30478795
As much as I dislike SR that argument is meaningless considering only Charizard is the only "meta" pokemon thats hurt so hard by Stealth Rock.

>>30478533
It is if you use Fire, Ice, Bug, or Flying types.

>>30478621
This kind of argument always comes with the caveat that the counter has to be realistic and reliable. That's not the case for the first two.

And just fuck Starmie in general.

>Wasting your megaslot on a spinner.
If you're using Mega Sableye, you're not using it to support a Volcarona or what have you.

>>30478795
>It renders many pokemon non-viable who otherwise would be
This doesn't matter, stop pretending it does. Things are not banned because they make other things unviable. Not even memeing here, but that isn't an argument.

Who the fuck dialed Smogon to invade?

>>30478868
>It is if you use Fire, Ice, Bug, or Flying types.
Yeah, all those teams that use Pheromosa right now are getting totally destroyed by stealth rock users, what a shame that SR is literally gg to anyone who falls prey to it. This is even worse when all those teams ran Talonflame in XY and got shit on. Sad!

>>30478686
>No they aren't.
You've yet to prove otherwise.

>>30478724
>Legendaries and megas

>>30478868
>Mega Sableye
>in any way a waste

I don't comprehend

File: rused.png (24KB, 800x800px) Image search: [Google]

24KB, 800x800px

>>30478724
>Inb4 you move the goalposts

>>30478919
>>Legendaries and megas
And you moved the goalposts.

simply epic

>>30478904
Pheremosa is an unusually minmaxed legendary pokemon that's soon to be banned.

>>30478932
What I was saying is that using Mega Sableye as a spinner is a waste. If you're using it, you should be doing something better with it.

>>30478868
>Sableye is a spinner
Good to know you have no clue what you're talking about

>>30478919
>Legendaries and megas
What the fuck difference does a legendary make in a fucking battle simulator? The legendaries are in the same power level as the others in the tier.

>>30478741
yeah lets just get rid of all art and just have 0's and 1's hahaha oh man that would be so perfect for autists like you. fucking faggot loser.

>>30477928
And it was nerfed from a state where it still took half it's health when switching in on sneaky pebbles it is a valid point to bring up. They are saying that stealth rock is something that can be overcame since if it was such a handicap TFlame would not be used last gen at all.

>>30478953
It's been stated over and over again that legendaries and megas are poorly representative. It's not my fault you keep ignoring that.

>>30478973
Legendaries are overadvantaged compared to an average pokemon from the start.

>>30478846
>You're right when you say it isn't comparable, but in a different way - Stealth Rock isn't nearly as good as you think it is.

Except its considered in all forms of shake-downs and can still determine the line between OU and UU. Its not overbearing but its enough of an influence to where virtually every Pokemon's OU perks of "resists/weak to" stealth rock becomes a standard.

Stealth Rocks by design is still one of the strongest moves in the game 9 years later and hasn't made the game anymore fun outside of free damage without having to put in the work.

>>30478848
Opinion discarded

File: 1347584932856.jpg (43KB, 680x383px) Image search: [Google]

43KB, 680x383px

>>30478868
>Mega Sableye is a waste of a mega slot!
>You're better off using something else to support your Volcarona!
Ladies and gentlemen, here we see the quintessential shitter in its natural habitat. See how it advocates for its shitmon bros to be OU, even though they never could be, and commits logical fallacies with each posts to justify its poor teambuilding skills.

Let's watch it try to get a move banned because it can't adapt its team to it!

>>30478693
>Earthquake
Can be avoided with any flying type.

>Stealth Rock
Can't be avoided by anything. Works every switch in after use. Need to use a specific move to remove.

>>30478965
Anon was most likely implying that you use Mega Sableye to bounce back your opponent's rocks, because its ability is Magic Bounce.

That way, you still have all four open moves to use on whatever you want!

File: Ultra Casual.png (764KB, 465x580px)

764KB, 465x580px

>>30478980
>constructing straw people to justify your friendship with 1s and 0s

>>30478678
Smogon is a fanboy for the move. They love using it, so it gets special treatment.

>>30478996
>Moltres
>Phione
>Regigiggas

Oh man that advantage. I can't get over it

>>30479023
>just run a flying type!
Yeah okay, I'll just run a flying type on EVERY TEAM to deal with Earthquake. Fuck off Smogon shill, every team has to build around it, that's bullshit. There are so many great Pokemon that are unviable purely because of an Earthquake weakness. It can literally make the difference between OU and UU, it should be banned.

Do you see why these arguments are bullshit now? Do we really have to continue this or do you realize where you went wrong?

>>30479078
>Moltress
4x weak to Rock
>Phione
Was made as a joke. Not even representative of legendaries.
>Regigigas
Shit ability.