What's stronger, Protean Greninja or Ash Greninja?

It's a fucking mega evo without an item and buffed water shurikan

Protean by a great amount.

>>30271561
How much stronger does Water Shuriken get?
It's a shame Battle Bond doesn't turn into Skill Link cause Water Shuriken is still trash

It depends.

On Showdown, Protean.

Protean + Z-Happy Hour is insane, makes you better than Life Orb ninja without losing any HP and making your defenses slightly better and not to mention the speed boost which lets you outspeed almost everything except scarfed phero

Immense wallbreaker vs ridiculous stab type coverage.
Since it's really the only mon that can do the latter, I'll say protean gren.

>>30271677
How does it make it better than Life Orb?
you give up a move slot and your item slot for a one time Quiver Dance boost

only the speed boost is significant, but since you losecoverage by surrendering a move slot to celebrate then you'll probably end up having to switch more often anyway

Protean Greninja is a better wall breaker and more durable while Ash-greninja is a better late game sweeper and hits hard as shit.

>>30271864
>More durable

It's frail as fuck. It is just more unpredictable due to the versatility of sets.

>>30271611
It's still pretty shit. It just get a boost from 15 to 20 and always hits 3 times so it's just a priority move with a base damage of 60 that can break sash. It's not bad for a priority move, especially since after STAB it's 90 but still pretty shit.

>>30271913
Being able to change type makes it more durable. Water/dark is a pretty shit defensive type.

>>30271914
>always hits 3 times

You took the bait anon. That's a lie, Water Shuriken is still 2-5 hits and also yeah, its power has been doubled to 20 for normal Greninja, while Ash-Greninja boost its power to 30 per hit.

>>30271944
It's arguably better now with the prankster nerf. Naruto Frog cannot be hit with status by prankster mons now.

>>30271531
Protean by a pretty strong margin

All Ash Greninja does is buff water shuriken, water shuriken being a priority move.

But Greninja is pretty fast already, so I don't see the appeal of running a priority move on him on the first place. Battle bond isnt worth giving up Protean for.

Protean lets him tank normal type disadvantages with prediction, and also get STAB on everything. Ash greninja is a downgrade.

>>30271995
Fuck off, the trainer handbook already confirmed it. Plus, I literally used it for 50+ battles in the battle tree and it used it 3 times every single time.

So the buffed stats don't matter?
145/153/132 offenses aren't a downgrade by any means

>>30272115
No.

This is the in game description

The user hits the target with throwing stars two to five times in a row. This move always goes first.

And i've had it hit 5 times.

File: 1480221253434.png (394KB, 1100x535px) Image search: [Google]

394KB, 1100x535px

>>30272056
Ash-greninja has huge fucking offences and can hold and item. Its STAB moves hits much harder than protean greninja could.

>>30272161
Show proof faggit

>>30272195
Nah. Just noticed you're trolling around. Did the phox threads die down already or what?

>>30272056
>All Ash Greninja does is buff water shuriken, water shuriken being a priority move.

Wut? It gets a 110+ stat boost. It literally got mewtwo tier offenses with an even higher attack stat.

>>30272123
They do mean something IF it gets to do anything with them to begin with, and most guaranteed OU/Ubers threats literally wall and one shot the jobbing frog no matter what it does
I literally walled an extrasensory greninja with life orb with my toxapex, nearly causing the dumbass to kill itself through life orb, and then just proceeded to put it out of its misery with golisopod
Protean is just better and even allows for mind games

>>30272315
Getting a kill with regular life orb greninja isn't fucking hard. You literally only need to run u-turn on it and use it on pokemon with low health. Either the opponent will get killed and you get Ash-greninja or they switch out afraid of activating battle bond and you get a free hit plus u-turn. It's a great late game sweeper and actually takes some skill and prediction to use.

>>30272380
Well that means over 50 people and more are literally more retarded than the retards who think emergency exit is actually a bad ability and not something to balance out an absolute fucking beast and help it retreat from actual threats to it because so far no one has beaten me with ash greninja even IF they got off its ability
I honestly don't know how you play with it, but all the people I've fought got their shit rekt and I've always walled ash greninja no matter what it does

Does it breed?

>>30272473
You're so transparent lol

You clearly dislike Greninja and now you're trying to spread out lies to make people not use it.

Go back to fuck Shitnaught or whatever the hell you fawn over for

>>30272473
Maybe because you literally run stall cancer mons that might get banned to uber? Maybe because the kids you play against on showderp have no idea how to use it and only use it because they saw it in the tv show?

It has been a great late game sweeper for me and is really fun to use since you actually need some skill to use it instead of shit like gen 6 gale wings talonflame.

>>30272561
Yes because who in their right mind WOULDN'T spread lies about a fictional animal am I right? Not doing so is fucking stupid, gotta have those lies spreads right?
>>30272583
If you mean the cancer stall mons that should be ubers only are golisopod, araquanid, Decidueye, mimikyu, kommo-o, oranguru, ribombee, and salazzle while about more than half having a full sweeper set, even the owl, then yes I do use Cancer stall Mon
Look, I don't doubt you've swept with it millions of times before, but I've had the exact opposite happen to me , so I guess it's all just different situations in the end

>>30272899
I guesses you only used toxapex on it but the thing with Ash-greninja is that it has a niche. I got not doubt protean greninja is better in most situations but Ash-greninja does it harder. It just the ability to predict and good timing to activate it which makes it harder to use while with protean greninja you can play mind games to some extent but the way you use it is pretty straight forward. Using Ash-greninja forces you to run u-turn though. But it's great fun to use.

A great way to explain the difference between the two I would say is claiming protean greninja (especially now with z-happy hour) is in the low uber tier while Ash-greninja is mid-high OU tier.

>>30271531
>50 BST points wasted on attack when it's made to use Water Shuriken

I don't understand.

>>30273321
>203 base sp atk

Even GF isn't that retarded. Besides, it physical attacks hits just as hard as protean greninja. So it could run the low kick, gunk shot, ice punch shit on it.

>>30271531

Okay, let me break it down.

Water Shuriken gets buffed. Base power is boosted by 30%, and 3 hits minimum, instead of 2.

Notmally, one hit deals 15 damage, minimum is 30, max is 75.

With Battle Bond, the damage of each hit is increased to 19.5. Minimum damage is 58.5, max is 97.5.

Basically, Battle Bond Water Shuriken is a Technician Aqua Jet at worst, priority Surf at best.

Greninja itself gets +50 Attack and Special Attack, and +10 Speed. Offensive stats are boosted from 95 / 103 / 122 to 145 / 153 / 132.

It outspeeds Tapu Koko, and ties with neutral base 150s - 399 max Speed.

Regular Timid Greninja has a Special Attack stat of 305. Ash-Greninja's is 405. This is a 33% boost to non-STAB moves.

Ash-Greninja's Water and Dark-type moves (Hydro Pump and Dark Pulse) are 33% stronger than Protean Greninja's.

Non-STAB moves are boosted by 33% instead of Protean's 50% STAB boost.

I'd say that Ash-Greninja is stronger overall, but doesn't have access to its form immediately. The damage difference is neglegible for Ice Beam and Gunk Shot, but might make a difference for other coverage moves, like Grass Knot and Extrasensory.

The extra Speed is important, and a strong, spammable Dark Pulse is a great asset. A strong priority move is an obvious advantage too.

I can run calcs if you want, but that's about it. Unless there's a huge difference in damage, Battle Bond is superior, I'd say.

>tfw it'll be gen 8 and people will still be talking about greninja

its not fair, people are already getting tired of based reddit owl and tranny seal, I thought reddit told me greninja was forced????

Protean:

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Silvally: 152-179 (45.9 - 54%)

Battle Bond:

252 SpA Life Orb Ash-Greninja Water Shuriken (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Silvally: 146-173 (44.4 - 52.5%)

>>30271531

Ash-Greninja is stronger. Protean Greninja is better and easier to use.

However, Ash-Greninja can be extremely good simply because of the mind games and switches it forces when it comes in on a near dead Pokemon.

File: GRENINJASH.png (280KB, 393x400px) Image search: [Google]

280KB, 393x400px

>>30275771
It IS confirmed to be only 3hit, so it's 60bp

pretty much same as priorty from Technician, which is fucking good.
Achieving the transformation is quite easy, unless you fight stallfags. Greninja still shitting on a lot of things


After transforming, with extraesense not even Toxapex can wall it

252 SpA Life Orb Ash-Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Toxapex: 161-190 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And even before transforming, with Extra-sense it can two-shot mixed Toxapex.

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 123 SpD Toxapex: 70-83 (44.5 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Water-Shuriken is more than enough to dent pretty much anything weak to water after transforming.

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Water Shuriken (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Hippowdon: 288-351 (68.5 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Ash-Greninja Water Shuriken (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Heatran: 219-264 (56.7 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Non-Stabs are close to protean Greninja, which is not bad at all while being faster


right now it's pretty much a better XY meta Greninja, which is good
move tutors will give it even more coverage and will make it as good as Protean, because it could go past pink blobs with 145 attack. Hell, it got a fucking good as fuck Priority to hit really, really fucking hard. only 7% difference.

252 SpA Life Orb Ash-Greninja Water Shuriken (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 144-174 (35.6 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 171-202 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO


People who say Ash-Greninja is shit are dumb. it's harder than protean to use, that's for sure, but as a late game cleaner it's fucking amazingly good


Also it's ingame animations are fucking cool as fuck.
>use acrobatics ingame
>it's use the fuma shuriken as two swords and literally go omni-slash

>>30277246
>After transforming, with extraesense not even Toxapex can wall it

So if toxapex can wall it pre-trans, wouldn't that just prevent transformation altogether?

>>30271864
This.
/Thread

So what nature for ash frog?

>>30277454
Right now? Timid

after tutors Hasty/Naive will be good for abusing that 145 attack.

>>30277395

did you missed?
>And even before transforming, with Extra-sense it can two-shot mixed Toxapex.

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 123 SpD Toxapex: 70-83 (44.5 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

no one runs 252 spd toxapex from what i saw.

people REALLY make regular Greninja shit. it's still stronger and faster than Starmie, which was used not only for Analytic.

>>30272258
>He cant prove his bullshit
LOL

>>30277609
neither can you, retard

File: mega lucario.png (479KB, 1187x1070px) Image search: [Google]

479KB, 1187x1070px

>Ash-Greninja is a Mewtwo with Technician priority who can bypass subs/sash, Mega-manectric speed and Landorous-T strapped on his shuriken for ATK support. Oh, and it's can use items, same as Mewtwo.
No, seriously.

>252 SpA Life Orb Ash-Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 165-195 (37.1 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

>252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 165-196 (37.1 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

File: 1433799455173.png (40KB, 452x452px) Image search: [Google]

40KB, 452x452px

>>30277732

breddy gud

>>30277246
Then why on smocunt is 2 hits min? Because i always get 2 min

File: greninjash set.png (47KB, 642x183px) Image search: [Google]

47KB, 642x183px

>>30277936
ahh no?

>>30272540
no

>>30278045
Then what the fuck? I got 2 hits after being transformed

>>30272172
Literally this.

Getting one KO with Greninja isn't difficult, considering how great he already is.
You get that KO, and then you've got a literal monster. Besides obvious choices like Life orb or Choice Specs letting him murder everything, I sort of want to run him with Assault Vest just to watch him be unkillable.

>>30271531
Madara Uchiha is stronger

>>30279354
>unkillable
Even a choice band ditto can kill him back, since you have to be really bad to let him transform with no damage, and switching out is just giving ditto a chance to sweep you back. For the lols i killed one with a focus band alolan golem plus explosion (which is electric type due to it's ability). Protean greninja is a lot more dangerous.

>>30278045
>Showdown
>proof of anything
They fuck up certain mechanics fairly often.

>>30280049
252+ Atk Golem Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Grass Greninja: 618-728 (420.4 - 495.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

lol protean greninja

>>30280346
protean greninja is a constant presence, ash greninja needs a cheap shot to get going and it's easy to stop.

my demo ninja turned out modest and it wrecks face at the tree

What's good to pair it with? Right now I got Xurkitree and Pelliper

>>30280457
252+ Atk Golem Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Water Greninja: 882-1038 (600 - 706.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

lol

It'll be interesting to see Ash Greninja getting into people's heads.
Suddenly you won't want to make a sacrifice for a safer switch-in because it might be gifting the opponent a boost in power(!)

File: straws.gif (28KB, 356x200px) Image search: [Google]

28KB, 356x200px

>>30280930
>extreme speed golem