Lillie hate thread

Lusamine please stop

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Lusamine and Lillie are shit waifus who should just commit sudoku.

Guzma however...

>>30262503
lusamine is fine
lilly is the worst fucking pokemon girl of all time and i hope she gets fucking run over by a tauros

>>30262503
I don't hate her but she is already overrated.
Japanese men think they can get a European girl.

>>30262708
>implying she's not a jap

Worst pokegirl in every way and I felt like she was being shoved down our throats already before even looking into the other media like manga and anime.

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>>30262758
>pale skin
>blonde hair
>physically attractive
>a jap

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Who the fuck is this artist?

I want to jerk off into Lillie's hat.

>>30263116
Gerph

>>30262698
I hope a tauros runs a train on her...

>>30262503
>>30262665
>>30262698
>>30262708
>>30262960
You are all going to burn in hell

>>30263261
sometimes known as Gerp by the illiterate

>>30262503
I like her and her development, but the game felt like Lillie's Story with the MC as a background NPC. Not to mention how useless she is, characters with half the brain she has were doing just fine traveling as a Trainer in other games, just get yourself a Pokemon already. I have boxes full of them, have a fucking Weedle or something. Now let's go String Shot all over your mom.

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>>30263261
>>30263314

'した, せんぱい。

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>>30262503
>>30262665
>>30262698
>>30262708
>>30262960
>>30263297
>>30263420
Get off of this board you're all a bunch fucking disgusting, degenerate assholes who deserve to be shot down in the street like the filthy niggers you are. Fucking kill yourselves.

>>30264404
Calm the fuck down Hau.

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Yo yo yo! Let me hear about this how bad this chick?

>>30262758
>pale blonde haired girl with common american name in american region (which is exactly the same in the japanese version)
>japanese
>>>>>>>>>>

>she didn't just put nebby in a pokeball

Is she dumb?

Lillie is definitely the most moe Pokémon character.

>>30264404
I just wanna see her get fucked by a bull

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>>30265363

I miss her...

>>30262503
It wasn't the player's adventure
It was her adventure

>>30262503
>tfw no qt3.14 gf whose self-esteem has been shot by her hot bitch mother

>>30266013
I like Lillie but this made me salty. This is the first Pokemon game where I didn't feel like the protagonist. They weren't even assed to give us facial expressions, which would have been so easy.

>>30266834
To add to it, and then the ending made me feel like I was an NPC left behind while the protagonist went off to have more adventures. That's not something I play this game to feel. I should have been the one going off for more adventures.

>>30262665
Why are Guzmacucks so disobedient? Even your boy knows his place beneath Goddess Lusamine's sweety feets.

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>>30262503
Glad, I'm not the only one that dislikes her. I feel the whole game could have gone fine with out her. Like just remove her and the plot won't change much at all. I just couldn't stand how super weak she was plus all her mother issues.

>>30266013
So right on about this.

>>30262503
Whats weong with their heads and posture?

>>30264480
>Hawaii is part of the US so anyone who lives there is white
>not Japanese
>being this ignorant of Hawaiian demographics.

I want lille to off herself and I want nebby to discover her body and not give a shit.

>>30264480
>>30267636
Lillie isn't even from Alola, though. They came to the Alola branch of Aether fairly recently to research the Ultra Wormhole.

Why didn't she just catch a Pokemon?

>>30267505
Starfaggot pls leave.

>>30267505
If you remove her there isn't even a plot.

>>30266865
That wasn't how the ending was supposed to make you feel you mong. You're about the "it doesn't make me feel like I'm the protag" thing though.

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OP DELET THIS

>>30266865
She was going off to have her own adventures and become a trainer (ie do the journey you just did.) There's still stuff to do on Alola after she leaves and there's already 2 generations that incorporate Kanto if you want the Kanto experience.

>>30266865
People like you are the reason why most Pokemon games have flat characters

>>30267956
Yeah. In the third Kanto remake, they're going to make Lillie the champion I just know it.

>>30262503
She's a nice character, but it feels like you're always just following her aroung, and particularly on the last half. Shit gets old

>>30267999
You can have rich characters without them being the main focus of the game and connected to the big plot more than you are.

Like I said, I like Lillie. I just think they went too far.

>>30262503
Before I saw this thread I felt like I was literally the only person here that dislikes her. Jesus christ is it nice to get away from her hordes of waifufags.

>>30267956
It's not about Kanto itself. It's about feeling like I got left behind and am going to stay static on Alola while another character goes off to have future adventures. And this was after she felt like more of the main character for the huge amount of cutscenes prior.

>>30266834
This, I don't like Lillie at all but this makes the game feel like a huge chore. When I played the Z story in ORAS I was like "well I really hope we don't have to deal with shit like this in the next gen." Nope, worst fears come true, the whole GAME is like this.

>>30262503

That is fucked up

I haven't bought SM yet, how much of the game is riddled with this cunt?

>>30268201
85% of it revolves around Lillie.

>>30268201
All of it. Have you played the Z story in ORAS? She's like Zinnia but a million times worse. The game doesn't let it be about you for more than a few seconds, it's almost always about Lillie by default.

>>30268247
>>30268273
Well then this is the second main series game I'm skipping. I hope they knock this shit off.

>>30268302
Just pirate it and give it a shot. It's not that bad if you're a drama queen.

>>30268364
>It's not that bad if you're a drama queen.
It's not that bad if you're not a drama queen, I mean.

>>30267817
>That wasn't how the ending was supposed to make you feel

What kind of retarded argument is that? I don't think anything anyone finds bad about a story was intended to be taken the way they took it. That doesn't mean it's not still flawed or that they're wrong.

> Lillie is made to be hated

Early in the game you find Cosgmog has run away from Lillie. You speak to two NPC's.

The female NPC explains she runs away from the male NPC to prove that the male NPC loves her. She knows that if the male NPC doesn't look for her, he doesn't love her.

Lillie doesn't bother chasing it. Throughout the game she's doing everything to piss off her mother, none of it is because she cares about Cosmog or its safety.

>>30268302
I don't blame you. It's okay when you're finally alone but the constant-handholding and it really being about Lillie make it feel like a chore.

And is it just me, or are there longer loading times? If you remember the times when the screen would fade to black and go back in XY/ORAS, it happens ALL the time in SunMoon - sometimes even just to turn your character around the other way after checking out an obvious roadblock, or when you're selling items. It's infuriating.

The cutscenes being unskippable is one thing, but they're just so boring. It took me half an hour until I got my starter, and I was going at a reasonably quick pace too. I played for a few hours and I still wasn't even at the first trial (sort-of the gym equivalent). At least that makes the game longer I suppose, but jesus.

>>30268201
When it's the main story, it's all Lillie all the time. Lillie is the most involved part of the main story and it's all connected with her. Essentially the Legendary Pokemon of the game is Lillie's and she just tells it to stay with you. People aren't exaggerating when they say she's more of a protagonist.

But honestly it feels like two different stories half the time. There's you on your typical Pokemon journey, and there's the rest of the plot that's Lillie and you tagging along to support her.

Pretty much the entire story is Lillie's to the extent most the characters are related to her.

You get a very basic minimal level of gameplay between cutscenes to establish characters who are important to Lillie's story

The main story even ends focusing on Lillie not even bothering to tell you she was leaving because she knows your pansy ass isn't worth focusing on in her game

ITT: hyperbole general
Lillie was barely on the level of screentime as your average JRPG heroine like Yuna or Rinoa. Maybe even less than a real hidden protagonist like Ashe.

>>30268551
>Lillie was barely on the level of screentime

How the fuck you judging screen time in a game where cut scenes depend on whether you read or skip through the dialogue.

Freaking Autistic nonsense

>>30268485
Oh boy, you'll love this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_MT9q54MGY

>>30268468
That scene was bad, but you're completely misreading Lillie. Lillie herself loves Lusamine and Cosmog.

>>30268551
Tell me right now how Lillie wasn't more of a protagonist in the main conflict.

>ran away from home
>disrespectful to her parents
>replaces her excellent initial clothes with ugly garbage
>is ugly garbage
>probably doesn't think Nihilego is the bombest shit ever
And we're supposed to like her? She is-I mean, she would be-such an awful daughter.

>>30268468
Even the scene when you meet her fucks up her character. She expects you to go on that precarious bridge and through pecking Spearow even though you don't have any pokemon makes it look like she's not just meek - she doesn't care enough about Nebby to even make an attempt to try, and uses you as her meatshield.

I get that they wanted to make the player do something, but right from the get-go she came off as selfish. And then she asks you to walk her back, like you're some big strong man? This was made all the more obnoxious when my player character was female and hardly looked much different from her - like she would've made anybody go out and do that dangerous thing for her, fuck them right?

You can make a character passive and vulnerable, but everything they do with Lillie is just wrong somehow. I can't stand her.

>>30266865
Yeah, you're the waifu expected to wait patiently at home while the real character goes off to have adventures. Just rot away on this backwater island forever in charge of your useless half-assed league the rest of the world probably makes fun of.

>>30268201
It's the Lillie's bodyguard simulator.

>>30268468
Wait, which scene? The bridge one?

I thought that was a cliche hero scene and not meant to be looked deeper than that.

>>30268646
Just like Yuna in FFX. So what? It's a common JRPG heroine thing.

So what would "fix" Lillie for you guys outside of removing her or making her irrelevant?

>>30268685
That's a problem of graphical limitations. They should just make her look more desperate, with trembling legs and a pale face on the border of years in Stars.

>>30268645
>Lillie herself loves Lusamine and Cosmog

Lillie orders Cosmog to kill Lusamine and its only through this being a kids game that Lusamine is magically in some kind of coma instead.

As for caring about Cosmog, she constantly tells it to shut up and hides it in a bag even when its amongst friends. She upsets it constantly and doesn't even bother looking after it properly.

> She doesn't go after it when its on the bridge instead forcing the protagonist to do it
> She doesn't go after it when it gets lost in flowers
> She doesn't care for it at the end of the game when she just gives it away

She even has the balls to basically tell Cosmog (As the game's legendary) to basically stay inside the Pokeball and never come out.

>>30268763
You play as her.

>>30268763
Honestly it's not really about Lillie. Like I've said earlier, I like her and the fact that she has so much development and grows into her own.

The fault lies in that the character we play isn't nearly involved enough in everything. We needed something more proactive than Lillie dragging us into her problems and then being the one focused on in the cutscenes because we're just kind of there to help her.

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B-b-but I really liked Lillie...

>>30268815
She has loads of potions and repels only for him. He has his own bed in Kukui's house. You found the only two instances of her being a bad caretaker and the first was more bad presentation than anything else.

>>30268712
>Wait, which scene? The bridge one?I thought that was a cliche hero scene and not meant to be looked deeper than that.

No, its when you are inside a mountain.

Its not a cutscene but a story element. There are only three NPC's there. One man, one woman and Lillie. You have to walk through flowers to find Cosmog.

The entire scene is depicted in a way that basically says in big bold letters 'Lillie is a bitch and doesn't love Cosmog'

>>30268814
Even if they did that, it still doesn't help the fact that she just stood there. Sure going out there would've been dangerous,but she was just going to watch while Nebby got more and more hurt? What the fuck?

Lillie was perfectly fine right up until the start of the fourth island, where, after making a big deal about not be weak anymore, she tells you not to worry about her because she has a shitload of repels. Maybe she should have had you help her catch her first Pokemon, a-la Wally, and have her start being a trainer there. She wouldn't have to contribute to story battles, since she's clearly gonna be way behind you, Gladion, and Hau, but the point would be that she actually starts growing when she said she would.

>>30264404
Geez Lillie, I never knew you had such a potty mouth. Lusamine needs to wash it out with some soap.

>>30268943
She has acrophobia. Did you even pay attention to the story?

>>30268850
I think we needed more personal involvement with Lusamine. Imagine if earlier in the game, Lusamine gets you to do things to help her out. You do them because you think she's the good guy at that point, and she starts really liking you. Starts treating you like a daughter almost.

Cue the main conflict kicking in and you realize that things aren't what they seem. During the final conflict with Lusamine, she now sees you as yet another child who betrayed her. Add in the creepiness of you being another "surrogate child" to make you parallel yourself with the UBs. It gives you more connection with Lillie too. It makes the final battle feel more personal to you because Lusamine thinks it's personal and you've been used.

Something like that would have done wonders to make you feel more main character-y. But I think it would've taken a longer game to get it done right. Everything with Aether Foundation and Team Skull felt disappointingly rushed.

>>30268685
>but right from the get-go she came off as selfish

Do you have autism.

>>30268913
I don't think that was their intention, anon. I think you're looking for symbolism where it doesn't exist.

>>30268952
They were on a hurry to save Lusamine. If anything, she should have gotten a starter from Kukui.

>>30268911
>She has loads of potions and REPELS only for him

Then how the fuck did he get attacked by Spearow?

>>30268911
>You found the only two instances of her being a bad caretaker

I only listed two for time and while you may view one of them as 'bad presentation' at the bridge... the second one at the flowers is clearly intentional as its designed specifically to mirror what is happening

> Protagonist finds Lillie
> Lillie explains Cosmog ran off and she doesn't want to go after it
> Protagonist finds man who explains he is desperately trying to find his girlfriend who ran off
> You find girlfriend who explains she runs away to see if her boyfriend will look for her
> You find Cosmog

The entire thing is set up to show Lillie doesn't actually care about Cosmog and its clearly intentional.

>>30267956
>There's still stuff to do on Alola
No there's not.

>>30268952
Not even that far yet and seriously, why the FUCK hasn't she just been given a pokemon to use? Does she have to have a pokemon trainer license and because she ran away she can't go get one because she'll risk being found out? Even Wally managed to be less annoying than her because at least he makes an effort. Lillie doesn't even have the excuse of being a sick kid. God, you just added another element to how annoying she is.

>>30268815
My headcanon is that she actually died, but the nurse just didn't have the heart to tell Lillie and Gladion that she's gone for good. As long if Lusamine never makes another appearance my headcanon will stay this way.

>>30269043
>Then how the fuck did he get attacked by Spearow?

Freaking Tapu Koko picked up Cosmog and brought it back to her.

>>30269043
The second one makes no sense and is basically the worst Lillie scene in the game

>>30269051
Not him, but
>UB sidequest
>Battle Tree
>catching other stuff
>trainer rebattles
that's stuff.

>>30269070
>My headcanon is that she actually died

In which case Lusamine is dead... so Lillie made her enslaved stolen Pokémon murder her mother...

>>30269043
I really don't think it was meant to show that she doesn't care about Cosmog. It's meant to highlight how cowardly she is at first. She loves Cosmog but she can't even bring herself to go save him and counts on someone else instead.

I think if we hadn't been around, she would have eventually gone out there. But she pawns it off on us because she's a coward then.

>>30268719
Tidus was heavily involved in the story. His father and their relationship are just as important to the narrative as Yuna's pilgrimage.

>>30269113
>The second one makes no sense and is basically the worst Lillie scene in the game

The second one must have been 100% intentional. It is the only time we ever have character development for the relationship between Lillie and Cosmog.

It is also part of the core story given its referenced later by Lusamine. Its only at the end of the story after Lusamine tells Lillie how much of a bitch she is for shoving Cosmog in a bag/box that she even remotely acts normally before realising she was a jerk and leaving.

>>30269043
>The entire thing is set up to show Lillie doesn't actually care about Cosmog and its clearly intentional.
It's not. You're looking for things that aren't there. We're not dealing with some master storytelling, this is Gamefreak. Everything can be taken at face value without issue.

I'm not going to say Lillie is super amazing and good or anything, but you're looking into things way too much.

>>30266865
Here the player was kicking ass, learning new shit, and catching new Pokemon.
Lillie just had a cloud in a bag and called out her mother.
Somehow the latter feels more significant and accomplished than the former.
Shit ain't right

>>30269125
>ub sidequest
One time thing, and way too easy with beast balls
>battle tree
Boring as fuck, trainers fucking stall you in this game
>catching other stuff
I didn't bother catching things the first time around. 30 hours in I've got 30 different pokemon.
>trainer rebattles
one time thing afaik

This post game is gonna suck.

>>30269190
I'll still never get over Lusamine calling us out over the PC boxes and the subject changing because there's no defense for it. I like that the developers sneaked in a little self awareness of the mechanics of their game.

The problem with the story isn't Lillie, it's that the stuff after Lusamine and Guzma fuck off to the Ultra Space becomes forcibly about Lillie because MC had no reason to tag along other than helping Lillie. They needed to increase the tension and keep the threat of Lusamine opening wormholes over Alola so that you would feel more heroish and not just being Lillie's beta orbiter. Maybe Stars will fix that by adding Necrozma to the mix.

>>30269166
>She loves Cosmog

The first thing she does after being told off by Lusamine is to give Nebby to us.

Once again, the flower scene explains this.

She doesn't love Nebby and Nebby recognised this and wanted to be with the one who came to protect it multiple times in the game - the protagonist.

>>30269243
It does suck, but you're still wrong about there being nothing.

>>30269236
Because it's presented as more accomplished and significant. And like someone said earlier, the lengendary pokemon actually being Lillie's and Lillie convincing it to stay with you adds to that feeling. She was "the special".

>>30269254
Nebby never has a scene where it chooses us over Lillie. Lillie tells it it's better off with us and it goes with us. It goes where it does on Lillie's whim. Clearly it has a stronger connection to her.

>>30269279
At least she's not Zinnia

>>30269205
>We're not dealing with some master storytelling

Have you even played the game?

> GF crafts over a 6 hour storyline told in cut scenes
> Handles at least three characters with abusive parents
> Deals with the concept of child abandonment, abusive relationships and the idea of becoming one's own person

Granted its not a masterpiece, but to simply ignore what is flat-out stated by the NPC's who were specifically placed in the same area as Lillie is just autistic.

>>30269315
I'd say she's worse but I still don't think she is. please Stars fix this shit. But I doubt they will because everybody seems to love her but a small part of /vp/

>>30269279
You're both the Chosen One and I'm sure Stars will expand on that. Lillie makes a brief reference to it but it's never expanded, but you both were meant to play the flutes and awaken Cosmoem.

4chan ruined Lillie for me. Looking t her all I can see is an icon of everything an autistic kid who never got on with people loves

Which isn't to say that's a description of people who like lillie

>>30269268
Wasn't me. My point was from a story perspective, that is, from something a character like Lillie would address. There's no more adventure to be had in Alola. Everything's been done, everything discovered and beaten. It's used up. It's over. The UBs are something that pops up and is done in a day, rebattles aren't new content, 'catching some stuff' isn't part of a story/adventure, and the Battle Tree is a dubiously canon distraction in one location.

>>30269307
>Lillie tells it

You pretty much confirm it here.

As shown in game (You can see the cutscene collection higher up) Lillie quite clearly pretends to know what Nebby wants and then orders it to be with you.

>>30269334
If only Lillie had a penis

>>30269337
I think this was the point. I also think the point is that Cosmog is equally attached to both of you after you save it. The problem is this wasn't presented well. Maybe we needed more scenes with just us and Cosmog. Some of its evolved form's actions probably should have been because we asked it to help and it did it. But that's relegated to Lillie.

>>30269338
>Looking t her all I can see is an icon of everything an autistic kid who never got on with people loves

Lets see what that is;

> Thief
> Animal rights activist
> Coward
> Weak muscled
> Childish
> Immature
> Abuse victim
> Petty
> Thinks clothes define her
> Doesn't care about protagonist (as shown by abandoning them)
> Etc...

>>30268943
This was just in the game so they could have Tapu Koko appear and give you the strange stone. Y-you realize that right? It's why your character is even considered for the island challenge.

>>30269332
And looking so deeply into things that you think a little girl hates a Pokemon is just as autistic.

If you seriously think this then you're fucking crazy.

>Not being happy for Lillie and her Z Powered Form becoming a Trainer in Kanto

Smh you fucks probably complained after N disappeared in first Black and White

Everyone obsessing over her is attracted to her, which means its pretty fucking shallow

>>30269334
Stars can fix the issues with the story without making Lilliefans mad. It just needs to do three things: one scene with Lillie putting herself in physical danger to protect Cosmog before it becomes Cosmoem, keep Lusamine a threat after she fucks off to Ultra Space and make it clear MC is as much of a Chosen One as Lillie.

>m-muh MC isn't involved as much meme

You literally see yourself physically becoming the first champion, sit in your chair, AND defend your title. The whole "I'm not involved as much meme" is completely irrelevant when you yourself are personally meeting up with the trials captains and kahunas and doing your own trials ON YOUR OWN. Those were personal challenges for both YOU and YOUR pokemon. Lillie was never involved in those scenarios. The least she did involving those trials was believe in you and wished that you'd be able to conquer any challenge thrown at you.

Besides, the Aether Foundation even recognizes and thanks you for helping out with Lusamine and righting their wrongs and even Team Skull becomes good after the fact. Oh, and don't forget the post-game either. You're literally helping out by encapsulating the Ultra Beasts, ultimately saving the Alola region from further danger and sending the information gathered from the Beasts to Wicke for her to analyze and archive.

Fuck outta here with this "I'm not involved in everything" bullshit. Even with Lillie gone, you can do still manage on your own and make a name for yourself.

>>30269251
Or you could have some personal connection to Lusamine or reason to go after her.

>>30269429
This. Do people completely forget she kept getting lost on the second island and was absent for the majority of it?

>>30269429
As someone stated before, there are basically two stories in this game, and the one that gets the most screen time is the one you play second fiddle to.

>>30269358
>>30269307
I don't know what the lion dog does, but in that scene before the Lunala battle, Nebby turns and nods to you when talking to Lillie. Seems clear to me it told her it wants to go with you.

>>30269351
I think from an RP perspective, it would have been cool if Lillie tells you she plans to go to Kanto but wants you to go with her. And it plays out like she's making preparations while you finish up in Alola. Then when you feel like you're done with the game, you can go meet her to go off on more adventures.

Problem is this would probably make people definitively think there'll be a Kanto remake even if there isn't. But that would've been a nice way to leave off.

>>30269445
Way harder than simply keeping Lusamine dangerous.

>>30269419
>And looking so deeply into things

Looking so deeply into things such as reading the dialogue in a game and understanding what dialogue means?

Get gud autistic twat - your stupidity is not needed here.

>>30269337
>You're both the Chosen One
Not really? Top Kek gave you a Z-ring but everyone gets one of those and it's never significant in the story.

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>>30269422
so I'm now straight because I like Lillie's character
okay

>>30269420
I honestly hate all 3 "Non-player protagonists" from the pokemon games

Pokemon is simply no good at storytelling, it's alright, and kids won't be able to pick it apart so I'm satisfied with it. But its clear they want you to play for the story, and if I wanted to see these damn plots done well I'd go read a better book or watch a movie with the same themes

Pokemon's formula doesn't even allow these stories to function without alienating massive amounts of the non-autistic fanbase

>>30269251
Yeah, what was up with that point in the game with wormholes opening? I thought it would've been a major point where Alola would be under a huge threat over Ultra beasts, but after defeating Lusamine the game resumed like normal. I know about the side quest post game, but everything seems perfectly fine with those beasts running amuck for so long.

>>30269498
They both summon the box art legend so I can understand.

>>30269485
Lillie is a coward that cares more for Nebby the more the game progresses. That was the point of the scene.

>>30269468
>Nebby turns and nods to you when talking to Lillie

Personally i took that as the 'Hero Nod' which is basically where a hero character in a team-up turns and nods to another character to signal that they fight as one.

You can see examples in varying media. I believe a few characters even do that to Ash in the movies.

>>30269478
Unrelated to the point but they never had to specify where Lillie was going but they did. They also made a point that you were from Kanto. I think there will be another Kanto remake.

>>30269445
Like this:
>>30269008

>>30269498
You are. Lillie's dialogue heavily implied you and here were meant to play the flutes to awaken the heir of the stars mentioned in Acerola's book m

>>30269526
The difference is that the flute Lillie uses is stated by her to seem like it was made for her, and there's a legend around it about how only a special chosen one can use it. The other flute, the one you end up picking up, is not stated to match you in any way and there's no legend about how it requires a special person. Basically, it comes across like any random person could play that flute, but not Lillie's.

>>30269573
See above. Lillie's dialogue only addresses her flute, not the one you use.

>>30269527
>Lillie is a coward that cares more for Nebby the more the game progresses. That was the point of the scene.

I could buy that train of logic... but it doesn't explain why she was too much of a coward to go through flowers to try and get to Nebby. It doesn't make sense even if we go under the belief that it was added purely to force us to explore an area...

>>30269505
You're the one identifying with "obsessed"

>>30269539
A sequel seems just as likely, but if it's a remake, I hope the SM mother appears holding a baby that's supposed to be the SM protagonist.

>>30269585
Lillie was a Chosen One while you BECAME a Chosen One. Just make it clear in the game.

>>30269429
The champion shit doesn't matter. The island challenge isn't connected to the plot and doesn't effect anything. The league was never even your goal, it's some stupid shit that Kukui came up with because he thought it was cool and told Nanu to tell you about.

They can make Lillie likeable in the sequel by having her actually do something useful without forcing the protagonist to do everything for her.

Her only act throughout the game is stealing Cosmog and ordering it to kill her mother.

Have her actually be a competent trainer now who fights to protect Pokémon from an enemy team or something.

>>30269592
I don't remember, did she have repels by then? Because there were wild Pokemon there. I don't know if they still do the whole "you can't go in the tall grass without a Pokemon" thing in SM though.

>>30269429
>Implying the post-game is ever canon

>Alolan Chosen ones were a girl from PokEurope and a kid from Kanto
Alola more like aLOLa.

>>30269565
Yes, that's a possibility.

I didn't care for Lillie before starting the game. Then the game made me feel important by taking care of her and I started to get attached. Then they made her LEAVE ME.

Still can't fucking stand Kukui though. Having him pop up everywhere was a nightmare. I'd half expect him to intrude on me taking a shit and forcibly explain how toilet paper works.

>>30269711
This. How would Anabel age into her late 20's while Wally still remains a shota?

>>30269666
Thing is, that's not a theme in the game at all. It isn't presented at all.

>>30269689
>The champion shit doesn't matter. The island challenge isn't connected to the plot and doesn't effect anything. The league was never even your goal, it's some stupid shit that Kukui came up with because he thought it was cool and told Nanu to tell you about.


This ^

Your only goal is to explore and have fun catching and finding out about new Pokémon.

EVERYTHING ELSE is because you saved Cosmog under Lillie's orders. The entire reason you are forced to go on the quest and become the island champion, the whole idea of the league, its all because they saw the Z-Ring and thought you were the 'chosen one' because of Tapu Koko.

You live your life in the shadow of your cousin's dream and a random abuse victim's storyline.

>>30269746
Anabel is from the timeline where Mega Evolution doesn't exist, right? We don't know how many years passed before she became a Faller and ended up in the ME timeline or just how much time shenanigans are involved with Ultra Wormholes. Wally is from the ME timeline so it would just confirm SM happening just after ORAS.

Keep Lusamine a threat. MC isn't doing shit just to help Lillie, he is saving the world.
Make it clear that Cosmog needs the representative of the Sun and the representative of Moon to awaken.
Lillie clearly was the Chosen One of the Moon, so MC represents the Sun.

>>30269717
You aren't a chosen one.

I dunno. Even just the small change of saving the world vs saving Lusamine would change the perception of the story, regardless of Lillie being The One or not.

>>30269805
Wait, so how is the SM universe organized? Does ORAS take place during FRLG, or are Red and Blue fallers too?

What's this about "Chosen Ones"? Did I completely miss something while playing through the game?

>>30269842
>You aren't a chosen one.

Umm...

> If you hadn't helped Cosmog - Tapu Koko would have saved it and you wouldn't have a role in Lillie's storyline
> If you hadn't saved Tapu Koko you would never have gotten the Z-ring and would have not been entered into the island challenges

If you didn't meet Lillie, you would have an entirely different story...

Also the Ultra Beasts would have invaded and mind controlled or killed everyone and everything.

>>30269924
>Wait, so how is the SM universe organized

Everything pre Mega Evolutions doesn't exist, it was destroyed by Ultra Beasts.

>>30269939
The Sun/Moon flute that Lillie plays has a legend attached to it about how only a special person can play it and Lillie says it feels as if it had been made for her.

>>30269939
>>30270014
But remember that this only applies to Lillie's flute, not yours.

>>30269964
Saving Cosmog doesn't make you some predetermined chosen one.

>>30269990
This theory has no evidence.

>>30270014
Where was this legend talked about?

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How smelly do you think Lillie's feet are after a day of marinating in her socks and shoes under the Alola sun? I bet her cottage cheese/spoiled yogurt feet are SUPER stinky! I want to bully her about her sweaty feet and watch her blush!

>>30269924
FRLG aren't part of the ME timeline, Pokemon Origins is. The games in the "parallel earth" featured in ORAS are everything pre-XY. It's a world where Mega Evolution didn't exist.

>>30270035
There's a book in the library that's written really poorly that talks about it.

Lillie talks about it again when you beat Lusamine the first time. Also see the first part of >>30270034

>>30268247
no it isn't, 85% of the game is still wandering around and battling pokemon, just like the rest of the games

>>30270051
>Random battles are now plot

>>30270051
You were able to spend 85% of your time battling? How did you skip cutscenes?

I want to marry Lillie and have more children than Brock has siblings :'^)

I want to leave Alola to have my own adventures so that when Lille returns from Kanto expecting me to have waited obediently for her return she'll realize that I'm gone and that she'll never be able to find me.

>>30270045
So in this universe, Kanto and Hoenn no longer take place at simultaneous times? This is the Zelda timeline all over again.

>>30270046
That's hilarious. And sad. Zinnia 2.0, except not batshit insane.

>>30270034
It wouldn't matter if you're still saving the world and not just helping Lillie with her mom.

>>30270211
I'm not really talking about how to fix the game in that post, just talking about what's wrong with it.

>>30270044
I was eating when I saw this, not only is that disgusting but I will never understand foot fetishism.

>>30270211
Technically the kahunas saved Alola from the big bad UBs who were never shown.

>>30270092
The game is pretty dialogue-heavy, especially towards the end, but I take my time to thoroughly explore the routes and that has definitely taken up most of my time
there really aren't many cutscenes at all

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>>30269599
That seemed like it was more aimed at people who like Lillie in general.
Sorry for misunderstanding.

>>30270164
Zinnia was fucking weird, with her breaking into buildings and that fighting pose. "Her sister's dead" doesn't really excuse going that far.

>>30270164
what's wrong with zinnia?

>>30270243
>there really aren't many cutscenes at all
see >>30268636

A lot of the "cutscene" issues would be resolved if Gamefreak stopped holding our goddamn hand. There is no way kids are this retarded nowadays. There is no fucking way.

There are plenty of ways to keep the basic story and Lillie's relevance while making MC more MC-like in Stars. But it's still GF scenario writers.

That said, there are a few JP Amazon reviews that say their problem with the story was "Lillie was cute and I like her but I wanted to feel more like MC".

>>30269406

All of those apply to Lusamine, though.

>>30270160
Yeah, apparently Kanto happened years before ORAS. Kind of trippy, but I'm fine with it. The whole "EACH VILLAIN TEAM MUST BE BIGGER AND BADDER THAN THE LAST" mentality wouldn't work past Team Flare, so they kind of had to start at the bottom of the power chain again with Team Skull. Shame that it means Team Rocket is probably gone for good, but hey there's always hope for Plasma or some derivative forming since Colress is still around. I don't like to believe he's reformed here.

>>30270044

Take those double doubles and check yourself outta here.

People actually wanted to be the focus in this story?
It's much more interesting when it's a character with actual personality getting focused and built upon than a nobody who is there just for self-insertion.

>>30267636
>>being this ignorant of Hawaiian demographics.

To be fair, Japanese numbers in Hawaii peaked back in like, 1920.
Once WWII rolled around, that number plummeted for obvious reasons. I think Hawaii is only something like 15% Japanese now.

>>30270301
there aren't
much of that video is just fucking dialogue with the guy taking several seconds to push through it. I definitely have not taken 6 hours to view cutscenes, and even if I had 87% of my playtime has been doing other things

>>30270343

Nigga it didn't work past Team Galactic who wanted to remake the entire fucking universe and fucked with God's servants and shit. Team Flare was pussy shit after that.

>>30270257
Tbh I don't blame you

I'm just tired of ppl saying that she's the reason why the game is good. 90% is following this bitch around in a story you hardly have a place in. pokemon is me making my own fucking adventure, not playing puppy to this bitch as she confronts her mom. and its sad that the game is so shit that this is the saving grace

>>30270301
Also those slow fade-to-blacks whenever anything happens and all those "quirky" character animations that they have to do in-between talking, not while talking.

The biggest problem is the lack of options. You MUST play the game the way they want you to. Remember how FireRed/LeafGreen had the little Trainer's TV? I thought that was such a great idea.

It's become so overkill with the handholding that it isn't even funny anymore. Did a million parents call GameFreak and complain or something when really their kid was just too stupid? Seriously, why did this happen?

>>30270380

Agreed. I never got the self-insertion shit with silent protags who are supposed to be you. Stories just end up sucking when you do that.

>>30270380
You'd rather not matter to anyone and be someone's slave?

>>30270399
Cyrus wanted to rebuild what would be, in his eyes, the perfect universe. Team Flare wanted to literally genocide all people and Pokemon. At least Cyrus acknowledged your existence.

>>30270418
This is the point of RP video games. RP doesn't always have to be self insert either.

You always care more about the characters who aren't you, but you're always the one who is most important. Because you have to be the one everything is happening to to make it fun to play.

>>30270291
Zinnia was a fucking asshole that tried to endanger Hoenn on purpose just to be chosen by Rayquaza as the hero of her tribe's lore.

It's also implied that she's behind Archie/Maxie's desire to awaken Kyogre/Groudon because she wanted to summon Rayquaza. After all the shit from the Delta Episode happens she never gets a proper comeuppance for all the damage she caused.

Just like Lillie Zinnia hijacked the plot of the games, but unlike Lillie Zinnia is a motherfucking bitch.

>>30270343
This makes me not only want a Sinnoh remake but a Kanto remake as well so that I can see how things are different in this alternate dimension. Pokemon Origins being taken as canon feels a little off since it's not a game.

>>30270416
Supposedly it started with kids complaining Platinum was too hard which is why Unova was a fucking circle.

And then it just kind of spiraled from there. XYORAS are the biggest offenders and while the level curve is much better in SM the hand-holding isn't. Maybe if enough Japs complain Gamefreak will tone it back but seeing as they want to compete with smartphone apps of all things I seriously doubt it.

>>30270444
Do you base your self-worth over fictional npcs riding your dick?

>>30270444
Well I don't matter to anyone so yes.

>>30270444
>you'd rather not matter to anyone
kek, did you play the game? Everyone rides your fucking dick. If anything you matter TOO MUCH to everyone.

>>30270416
Same anon here, just another thought I had.

I genuinely liked Cheren and Bianca and didn't find them annoying at all. I cared about their own issues and they were both nice to the MC and made sure to include him/her in things so it really felt like you were a trio.

Then Hugh happened in B2W2.

Is that where it started to go downhill? Or am I just weird in liking Cheren and Bianca?

>>30270485
Kids complained about Sinnoh being too hard? This is one reason why parents shouldn't allow their children on the internet.

>>30270463
hijacking the plot is just a buzzword and not an argument, because the delta episode was all supplementary

I don't see the problem with the rest of this

>>30270488
Does the game's story have any impact on your self worth either way?

>>30270503
Nobody care's how hard Lillie wants to suck your dick. You're still not important.

Well, they suck your dick plenty in SM. The reason Lillie and N get forgiven by JP fanbase for stuff Zinnia was crucified is because they both suck MC cock hard

>>30270408
never heard anybody say this
most of the story is your trial anyways, she's only really important at the very beginning and the end

>>30270450

Cyrus went far beyond genocide. Team Flare doesn't stack up.

>>30270503
Personally I think this made it worse. They didn't give us any importance but thought characters telling us we were important constantly would mask it.

>>30270533
Dude, everybody sucks your dick. Were the million free revives from Hau not enough? Kukui showboating you around?

you guys take these characters way too seriously
try to lighten up and enjoy yourselves

>>30270590
i want kukui to cuckui his wife with me

>>30270590
Hau sucks everyone's cock, and as stated earlier, Kukui's garbage is irrelevant to the plot.

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It's shit like this that ruined Persona and Fire Emblem. Everyone has to be the main person and marry their waifu and care about what non-existent characters think about their non-existent character. Honestly, who fucking cares if you're the main focus of the story?

>>30270533
Well if you're saying that, why does it matter whether or not the game is protagonist oriented. It only appears that way because we get no dialogue, in the end its our adventure and Lillie fucks off to kanto anyway

>>30270622
Yeah, this guy >>30270578 is right. I'll admit that. But they all still think you matter.

>>30270663
>Why would you want to be the main character in the story you're playing that's presented like it's about your character?

The key is balance.

>>30267999
>Yeah. In the third Kanto remake, they're going to make Lillie the champion I just know it.

>Champion
>Remake

No. Another Kanto remake would have Blue as the champion.
Lillie, being 11 years old, would probably be around 2 or 3 when that remake takes place.

What you just described is a sequel, which is just fucking silly.
Lillie flat out told us what she plans to do, which ends with her saying that she's going to return to Alola when her Kanto journey, which apparently ends when she finds someone to help her mother.
We'll probably see her in an Alola sequel.

Or, for all we know, in paid DLC updates. Because that worked really well for the last two Fire Emblem games and Nintendo probably has no issues forcing that on Gamefreak. We already need to pay a yearly maintenance fee if we want to fill up a National Dex this generation. I see nothing stopping them from saying
>"Hey! Coming Febuary 2017: Pokemon Sun/Moon Bonus Chapter 1: A New Hoppip"
>"Hey! Coming May 2017: Pokemon Sun/Moon Bonus Chapter 2: Lusamine Strikes Back"
>"Hey! July 2017, Bonus Chapter 3: Return of the Lill-i"
>"Oh. And uhh, September 2017. Bonus Chapter 4: The chapter that sets up the Sinnoh remakes. Here, have a Free* shiny Lucario that knows a move it normally can't learn, but it's wearing a festive hat so you can't bring it into the next games or put it in your Pokemon Bank."
>*Free with purchase of the bonus chapter.

>>30263116
Why is that expression so hard.
She seems so angry...sexually.

>>30270578

>Didn't give us any importance

Who fucking cares? Why do you care whether or not "you" have any importance in a video game? There's a fucking story, enjoy it.

>>30270663
Nah, what ruined Fire Emblem is that Nintendo noticed the fanbase got overrun by muh waifu/husbando fans, and seemed to make a lot of the Fates characters specifically catered to their tastes. It just leaves a foul taste in your mouth.

>>30270663
You talk like the vast majority of videogames don't make you the main character. You are obviously wrong.

>>30270715
Because I want to feel like I'm doing something important within the video game world when I play video games that have big, epic things happening? I think you have a misunderstanding of this genre. It ain't a movie.

>>30270673
>It's our adventure
No it's not. The entire plot is about Lillie and her family.

>>30270692

You have your own story in the game. You played your part. Games where your protagonist happens to be THE MOST IMPORTANT CHARACTER IN THE GAME is overly cliche. In this game everyone was important and played their part. You played yours, Lillie played hers, Hau was fucking useless. It's all balanced in the end.

>>30270745

I think I enjoyed it while you didn't. Maybe you are misunderstanding the point of a video game. I don't see the game called "Pokemon: The Silent Protagonist."

>>30270758
>You have a story!
What's with these idiots thinking the trials mattered at all? They didn't. They were irrelevant side distractions that happened in between the plot with Lillie.

>You're important!
Again, no you're not. Everything is about Lillie. You're her stupid pet.

>>30270715
The problem is people who aren't pedos aren't going to enjoy unskippable attention being drawn to a shallow character who's major appeal is the fact that she attracts pedos

You're a fucking pedophile

>>30270758
It felt balanced when you were with Cheren and Bianca in BW. But this is just really off.

>>30270747
I don't remember playing as anyone else, yes the plot is Lillie oriented, but you're the one that actually does anything along with Nebby. Even then Nebby is on the box

>>30270802
Maybe you should leave the dedicated anti-Lillie thread then?

>>30270758
You have to be the one who has the main role in solving the conflict and the progression of the main story. You should be a big part of the conflict in your own right, not because you're associated with another character. As the player, you should be driving the story along. It's bad writing when your character is menat to be the protagonist yet is constantly reactive and just follows another person who is actually moving the plot forward. This was most of what happened with Aether Foundation and the UBs.

>>30270698
>but it's wearing a festive hat so you can't bring it into the next games or put it in your Pokemon Bank
Stop making me remember Cosplay Pikachu.
There was no reason not to include it in Gen 7.

Shit, regular ol' black-tailed Cosplay Pika without the costume could've been Alolan Pikachu. I wouldn't even care if it kept the costumes or not (I'd prefer them to stay, though) as long as we could've kept the moves.

Meteor Mash Pika was the shit.

>>30270380
I actually did like this change in the story but I felt that they handled it poorly.

It feels like you're Lillie's bodyguard/bitch instead of being equal in terms of importance, what with Nebby bonding to her more, the plot being more or less about her mommy issues and how her flute is the only one described as being the one needing a special person.

The lack of expression in the player character makes it all worse. I understand they need to be an avatar of the player but I'm pretty sure nobody would be smiling like a sociopath while Lusamine was shouting at them.

>>30270526
>I don't see the problem with the rest of this
You don't see the problem with a troublemaking lunatic being portrayed as this sort of heroic mastermind? I'm aware Zinnia doesn't seem like much of an ass but making a character like her and trying to paint her in the right is proof of poor writing.

>>30270804

>Again, no you're not. Everything is about Lillie. You're her stupid pet.

Maybe in your self-inserted world you're her pet. In MY playthrough I was a vagrant upcoming champion who saw people in need and helped uncover a bunch of shit and seal up some fucking wormholes. How is this hard to understand?

>>30270818
You played a side character who did not matter in the plot.

>You do things!
At Lillie's command. You're not even a character, you're her tool.

Just so you guys now N and Lillie have hatebases in Japan. They're just more liked than disliked, unlike Zinnia. For starters, there is the crowd that hates any story focus in the games and they dislike all 3 "hijack characters". Otaku in male oriented sites also fucking hate N while Lillie gets some dislike from girls or fujos. Otaku complained and keep complaining about N way more then fujos seem to do about Lillie, though.

>>30270850
>Has to make up a bunch of headcanon to justify his stance on the plot.
That's pathetic.

>>30270821

So you faggots can have your little safe-space where you can co-miserate with people who only share your own thoughts? What do you think this is, Reddit?

>>30270828
Kinda hard to drive the plot forward without dialogue and when GF won't stray from the silent protagonist with a thousand-yard stare

>>30270840
what do you mean portrayed? you make your own conclusions on the character, and you clearly have
I think she's interesting and I don't mind edgy lunatic dragon trainers

you're getting in too deep and convincing yourself of problems that aren't there, I think

>>30270802
Are you trying to tell me that game isn't supposed to be about you when it's meant to be your adventure? When the characters act like you're the big guy? And people can't get annoyed when it turns out you're a glorified supporter despite the fronting?

And I did enjoy the game. I enjoyed Lillie too. There are just aspects that I didn't like and this was one of them.

>>30270875
Link does it just fine, actually. If you ever played a Zelda game, even with other characters, mattering, Link is always an actual, if silent, character with his own motivations and who is very important in the world.

>>30270850
The MC didn't uncover shit, they were just present while the other characters actually figured stuff out.

>>30270869

Except that's literally what you were. That wasn't headcanon. What's pathetic is that you couldn't sense the irony.

I remember spending 3/4 islands chasing the trials with lillie kicking along behind me for some reason
did I get a different version than everybody else?

>>30270875
You can drive with action, not words. But in the main plot portions, Lillie is the one who shows up to drag you to certain portions of the game. It's not even a suggestion that you should do something, but a literal come with me.

>>30270893

And you had your adventure. Your adventure led you into other peoples' lives, just like real life. News flash: Other shit going on in the world around you actually makes for a more life-like world.

>>30270900
Link emotes. Specially from WW and onwards. Just look how expressive he is in BotW.

>>30270919
>Up and coming champion
There was no league. That's something Kukui invents near the end
>Helped uncover a bunch of shit, seal some wormholes
At other people's behest and for their sakes, as their tool.

>>30270944

But it was your actions that actually led her to growing up. She attributed all of her revelations to you.

I have to say Lillie crossing that bridge with Murkrows was cringey as fuck.

>>30270868
It's been seven years since N was shown. Lillie's been out for like a few months only.

>>30270940
You're right, people are just being hyperbolic. Lillie only really takes over in the final island.

>>30270955
Yes. There's nothing stopping the SM character from emoting.

>>30270951
You're still missing the point of being a main character in a video game. Like I said above, balance is the key.

>>30270888
>you make your own conclusions on the character, and you clearly have
That's just like, your opinion.

I regard characters however I want, thank you very much. If you like Zinnia's portrayal and role in the Delta Episode, that's fine, but I didn't, and I don't need you coming in here disregarding what I said as just an excuse to hate on her.

It's not like I'm the only one who has a problem with her.

>>30270840
The fact that they made the MC's face non-emotive at all feels so lazy when they shove every other NPCs oh-so-quirky character animations in our face every time (though I will say the Team Grunts' movements are hilarious - and as an added bonus they do it while talking, not in-between).

MC could've been as charming as say, Windwaker Link with his/her facial expressions while still not talking. Seems like a HUGE missed opportunity.

>>30270868
I would've thought the Japanese fanbase would love them. I didn't really mind the heavy focus on Lillie in the games. I would've thought Hau would be a terrible character as well, but after the Yungoos began gnawing on his leg I felt myself warming up to his character, and he grew on me by the end of the game. Tierno still remains my most hated character to this day yet the Japanese love hi, why do they have such shit taste?

>>30270944
There are only problems because GF has incompetent writers. If not incompetent, then used to writing stories for 4 year olds to understand.

>Would you like to save Nebby or walk the fuck away?
>Yes
>No

>>30270990
>Lillie was cringey as fuck.
I agree.

I wish she was ugly so she wouldn't have a fanbase. The tune would be very different then.

>>30270981

>>30270981

>There was no league. That's something Kukui invents near the end

Nigga, it was something that was in the works before the start of the game. They were already building it.

>>30270981
>At other people's behest and for their sakes, as their tool.

Nigga, those wormholes were gonna fuck shit up. You were the only one that had the power to fuck up Lusamine twice, get Guzma back to safety, help Lillie grow up, save Lusamine at the end, who Nebby eventually decided would be the one to show it true power and further adventures, the list goes on.

>>30270988
But half of it felt unearned. Lillie drags you around and then talks all about how you inspire her so much. It's another case of people telling you how great and important you are constantly while you stand there smiling blankly. They pay lip service to your main character status, but you never feel proactive in the main plot. The trials are a different story but as was said, it felt essentially like a separate story.

>>30271031
They're popular, they just also have hatebases like every other character.

>>30271011
what?
I asked why people didn't like her and continued the discussion because I'm curious about your reasoning
and i determined it was a little silly

>>30270981
>Island champions are already a thing
>Kukui just wants to make it an internationally-recognized title
It's not hard to understand.

>>30270990
I think it's cute whenever she does the z-pose

>>30271042
Well yes, this is a given. In the end we're criticizing the story-telling in games that don't have amazing stories as the big focus. Though I enjoyed SM's story more than most of them and the characters too, so I guess I feel more like I can truly critique it on a story level.

>>30271061
That's just bad writing, but its fact that your actions drive the plot along

>>30271060
>Nigga, it was something that was in the works before the start of the game.
Evidence? Either way, Kukui only brings up wanting a league outside of the observatory, then brings up wanting to build it only one more time before it's sprung on you after the plot is finished. It wasn't your goal at any point until the very end.

>Those wormholes
You only went after Lusamine because Lillie wanted you to, the game made this very clear. You only did anything because Lillie said.

Still better than the world revolving around you like in modern Persons or FEFates.

>>30271006

You can keep claiming I'm missing the point when it's actually you. You were always there, you were still there at the end. You weren't the most important character to the story, but just like life, everyone is important and plays their role. We're all important. You need to see that "importance" is just subjective. Not objective.

>>30271069
Why is Tierno popular exactly? Nothing about him really seemed to stand out and he was more pointless than anything. He just made the whole group of friends thing more annoying than what it already was.

>>30271017
You know what's worse? Your character can actually emote, they just never used it again.

When you save Nebby from the Spearow your character has a :( face. Why couldn't that be used in other scenes? I sure as hell didn't feel like :) when Lillie was leaving for Kanto.

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>>30271011
Why are you so mad though?

>>30270900
Link has expressions and movements that show him being involved. The MC's a fucking robot.

>>30271146
this scene seems exciting
makes me want to read the manga but it seems so long

>>30271139
>You were always there
At Lillie's behest, for Lillie.

>>30271139
Video games aren't life. The protagonist is the protagonist because they drive the plot and are proactive more than reactive. If the character isn't that, then maybe they shouldn't be the protagonist.

The whole argument is that Lillie is more of the protagonist and that annoys people. It doesn't annoy you and that's great, but it doesn't make them wrong.

Stars NEEDS to make the character emote if it's on Switch.

>>30270804
>Again, no you're not. Everything is about Lillie. You're her stupid pet.


Lillie didn't become the first Pokemon League Champion of Alola.

Lillie didn't defeat Lusamine.

Lillie didn't rescue Lillie when she was in trouble.

Lillie didn't work with the international police to stop the ultra beasts.

Lillie didn't painstakingly turn over every rock and fallen leaf on Alola to reform the jigsaw puzzle known as Zygarde.

The entire point of this game was to give you a travel partner. Someone who relies on you, and who even you rely on to a lesser extent (Healing your pokemon, giving you items, explaining how things in this foreign region work, cheering you on in support). It wanted to show that there was more to unity in the Pokemon world than Pokemon and their trainers, and that humans need to rely on one another too. Was it executed flawlessly? No. But you'd have to be some kind of brain-dead bottom feeder to not see such a simple message.
I feel like you're the kind of person that, if you played some kind of knight in a video game, would complain "I'm not the main character! The King is the main character! I'm just his pet and do what he says!". You say we weren't important, which is just factually incorrect. Without the protagonist, NOTHING would have gotten done.

>>30271145
Probably Gamefreak just being lazy. Your character would emote right before the festival as well.

>>30270951
>led you into

Interesting choice of words, but I have to disagree. If it were like that then it would be more like you happened to stumble into other peoples' lives, and that those characters have the strength to do things on their own. Compare to BW, where Cheren and Bianca are going on their own journeys too, but they aren't showing up in every next area you go to like a pair of ball-and-chains on your ankles. Or when the Unova gym leaders stormed Plasma castle and did great, all on their own.

It's not an example of "other people have lives too" when they constantly stop dead in their tracks and need your help to do almost everything.

>>30271138
The world doesn't have to revolve around you for you to drive the plot forward. It's games that realize this that are the best.

>>30271157
I agree? My point was to counter people saying it's okay for your character to be irrelevant because he's a silent self-insert. I said that Link was also a silent self-insert but he also has personality and relevance to the world.

>>30271138
Well isn't that a defining characteristic of jrpgs?
Do you want to play as some guy named chuck who cleans toilets

>>30271145
>The part when all the UBs were being released
>Every other character has an "OH NO!" face
>MC smiling like a retard

>>30271198
Technically Nebby defeated Lusamine at the behest of Lillie.

>>30271130

You can talk to the people right before the Mimikyu trial at the town and they say they're building it and a lot of the hardware is already installed. It wasn't out of the blue.

>>30271130

>You only went after Lusamine because Lillie wanted you to, the game made this very clear. You only did anything because Lillie said.

Like you would have left them behind. This happens all the time in video game stories. This is not a big deal and nothing new. Why it's an issue now is only because it's something you're not accustomed to seeing in a Pokemon game.

Things change. The same old formula was stale. Get over it.

>>30270981
>At other people's behest and for their sakes, as their tool.

Pretty sure "Stop these worm holes before ultra-beasts destroy the world" is also for the protagonists sake.
I mean, they live on that planet too.

>>30271077
Well, I already explained why I didn't like Zinnia. She's an asshole that never gets reprimanded and instead is portrayed as a heroine.

It all is pretty silly, tbqh. I'm not obsessed with hating on Zinnia, I just wanted to express in full detail my problems with her portrayal. No need for you to disregard them because you think it's ridiculous, I'd rather you try to convince me why I'm disliking her for the wrong reasons.

>>30271219
I misread your post, senpai. Sorry.

>>30271196
>The protagonist is the protagonist because they drive the plot and are proactive more than reactive.

Absolutely incorrect and now you see why you have an issue. The main character doesn't necessarily have to drive the plot whatsoever. Hell, look at the movie Goodfellas for a good example of how a main character is just another guy.

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>>30262503
I thought I just hated the cutscenes in general with this game, but I've noticed I enjoy myself more during stretches where I don't have to deal with Lillie as often, like after she fucks off to the library on the third island, so maybe it does have to do with her specifically.

Either way Lillie should be hit by a train and lose her legs as a result of the accident.

>>30271145
I want to believe that it's an in-joke from GF where the protagonist suffers from heavy ptsd after his near death experience in the beginning

>>30271266
You can be just another guy and drive the plot. And movies are not video games. They cannot be compared, especially regarding RP games.

>>30271250
well thanks, I appreciate it

>>30271229

Fair enough.
But if we didn't get shit done, Nebby would have been killed by Lusamine in order to open up more worm holes to her weird glass jellyfish fetish dimension.

>>30271213

>It's not an example of "other people have lives too" when they constantly stop dead in their tracks and need your help to do almost everything.

But isn't that the case with fucking every game? That they need you somehow? This is no different. Plus her being so weak and needy was a plot point. She gets over it in the end because of you. You helped her grow up because of all the strong decisions you were able to make, even before she met you.

>>30271198
>Lillie didn't become the first Pokemon League Champion of Alola.
As stated repeatedly, this doesn't matter. Has nothing to do with the plot and was sprung on you at the end.

>Lillie didn't defeat Lusamine.
You did it at Lillie's behest after she drug you there. That part of the game was all about Lille confronting her mom. You were just a tool, like a warrior's sword.

>Lillie didn't rescue Lillie when she was in trouble.
So like a good pet, you save the main character.

>Lillie didn't work with the international police to stop the ultra beasts.
Post-game neither matters nor is it canon.

>Lillie didn't painstakingly turn over every rock and fallen leaf on Alola to reform the jigsaw puzzle known as Zygarde.
Sidequests also are not canon.

>The entire point of the game
Was Lillie and her story.

>>30270380

Seconded.

>>30271238
True, but was that really the focused on aspect of you going to the other dimension? Even saving the goddamn world played second fiddle to Lillie's motivations.

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>>30271312
Cheers anon

>>30271225
Sun and Moon have Alexithymia.

>>30271225
>everyone has these nice expressions and reactions to things that make the world alive
>you just :^) the entire time
This triggered me and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

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2MB, 1915x1463px

>>30271296
>You can be just another guy and drive the plot. And movies are not video games. They cannot be compared, especially regarding RP games.

Not him, but if you want a comparison that is also a Japanese role play video game...

Hi. Meet Vaan.
He was literally "Just another guy" along for the much more important character's adventure. And Final Fantasy XII received all of that late gen critical acclaim.

So the first thing to change in Stars is making MC emote, right?

>>30271405
First thing to change is to get rid of the fucking hand-holding and THEN making the MC an expressive character

>>30271233
>It wasn't out of the blue.
It also wasn't relevant.

>Like you would have left them behind.
I don't know what I would do. The game never gave me any sort of characterization or meaning outside of what Lillie says.

>>30271296

How your weak argument can move something as heavy as those goalposts is beyond me.

Xenoblade Chronicles X did this, too. MMOs do this all the time. The main character is not the most important character of all time in all games. And it's not bad storytelling. Clearly all of you need your ego stroked by being your self-insert silent protagonist who is the key to saving the world so you can call the game "good."

>>30271405
And also putting Lillie in a wheelchair at some point.

>>30271335
Hasn't it occured to you that you save Nebby's life and Lillie's and her mother's because that's what the protagonist wants but it is poorly communicated through the writing. Lillie seems to just be used as your voicebox since you're not given any dialogue but we can infer that the mc is just a good guy that wants to help. Also they're not going to put the option to not save someone's life in a pokemon game.
Also,
>Only the things I say are cannon

>>30269043
>Then how the fuck did he get attacked by Spearow?

Those Spearow could've easily been a higher level than him. We all know how repels work in this game.

>>30271436
The game never communicates any sort of motivation for the character except that they want to do what Lillie says. You can speculate all you want, but in the game as is, you do not WANT anything but what Lillie tells you to do.

>>30271323
Not even bothering with you after this because I already explained in my last post that there are better ways of handling that. Another example is Wally. Wally is also meek and unsure of himself, but you're not stuck with him for the whole game and expected to be his helper.

>>30271421

>It also wasn't relevant.

Stop moving the goalposts. It's relevant to your adventure, which is what this is about.

>>30271421
>I don't know what I would do. The game never gave me any sort of characterization or meaning outside of what Lillie says.

SURPRISE! Not every game gives you options on what to fucking do! When was the last time you played a video game?

Just let the player skill tutorials and cutscenes. "Do you need an explanation?"

>>30271436
>Also,
>Only the things I say are cannon
Oh, forgot this art, have you ever played Pokemon before? These parts of the game are never canon in the case of sequels or the next gen.

>>30271422
I don't know how many times I can say you don't have to be the important chosen one. You just have to be the one that moves the game forward, not have another character grab you by the wrist to move you forward every step of the way. The main plot should have some personal meaning to your character in the end if you are the protagonist, not purely going along with someone else.

It's not "moving goalposts" to say that you can't compare movies to RP video games, it's just a fact.

I have yet to see you explain how you're not less of a protagonist than Lillie.

>>30271382
>Critical acclaim
So does Call of Duty. Your point?

Among fans Vaan is often shit on constantly, and nobody pretends Ashe isn't the main character.

>>30271478

So you're saying the story that has someone similar in it should be handled basically the same way?

"Things should be this way because it's better because I said so."

No, that's just your opinion.

>>30271477
Again that's just poor writing and the limitations of :^) the protagonist. Being Lillie's lapdog is your own speculation too

>>30271372
You're not alone in feeling that way, anon. It's downright infuriating and so blatant in its laziness.

>>30271492
They still do that, only both options are considered to be "Yes"

>>30271527

>You just have to be the one that moves the game forward,

Again. No. You. Don't. Your definition of main character is way too small.

>The main plot should have some personal meaning to your character in the end if you are the protagonist

None of the games had that.

>>30271487
>Stop moving the goalposts. It's relevant to your adventure
But it's not. Nobody tells you that you should go after the league, or make it something you want, until right at the end after the plot. That it exists is meaningless.

>Not every game gives you options
Most of those games try and motivate me, either by having the character express their motivations or by trying to appeal to me, the player. This doesn't happen in SM.

>>30271422
>Xenoblade Chronicles X did this, too.
And it's the single most common criticism of X.

>>30271335
>As stated repeatedly, this doesn't matter. Has nothing to do with the plot and was sprung on you at the end.
Except it does matter?
First off, being champion wasn't sprung on you at the end.
Becoming the island champion was always a part of the island challenge. Kukui just wanted it established as a Pokemon league so that it would be officially recognized the world over.
You, the protagonist. Your own personal goal from the very start was to complete the island challenge and become an island champion. You, the protagonist, completed this goal, albeit it with a slightly modified outcome.

>You did it at Lillie's behest after she drug you there. That part of the game was all about Lille confronting her mom. You were just a tool, like a warrior's sword.
No, you fuck. You weren't the warrior's sword. Your Pokemon were the warrior's sword. Nebby was the warrior's sword. But you? You were the warrior wielding the sword in the defense of one who couldn't wield it herself.
Lillie was little more than Princess Zelda, but you were Link.

>So like a good pet, you save the main character.
Heroes are selfless and aid those in need. Lillie was in need.

>Post-game neither matters nor is it canon.
Show me where this was stated by an official source.

>Sidequests also are not canon.
Show me where this was stated by an official source.

>>The entire point of the game
>Was Lillie and her story.
And you and yours.

I bet games with ensemble casts confuse the fuck out of you.

>>30271498
Is anything really cannon then? Considering everything can just be scrapped with Gamefreak's "ITS A DIFFERENT UNIVERSE" retcon

>>30271527

>I have yet to see you explain how you're not less of a protagonist than Lillie.

I've yet to see you make post that don't show how narrow minded you are.

I've been saying all along you're an equal. You're all important in your own way. Lillie even says basically everything she was able to do was because of you. End of discussion.

>>30271577
Even just "I saved the world from bad guys" is personal meaning. In this game, Lillie's motivation was most important and you went with it. That's why people feel like they played second fiddle.

>>30271578

And that's part of the plot! You decide to continue your adventure and reach the top! Ta-da!

>>30271539
>Again that's just poor writing
Then the game is poorly written and as-is you don't matter? What's your angle? That's all anyone has ever been saying.

>the limitations of :^) the protagonist.
Link doesn't have those limitations despite being the same style of character.

>Being Lillie's lapdog is speculation!
Unlike with what you say, this is backed up by your actions.

>>30271592

Because of kids needing to stroke their little egos.

>>30271538
No, I'm saying that having a character like Lillie with a personality that could possibly really annoy people shouldn't be stuck with you for the whole game. Pokemon games can be linear, sure, but I don't feel like I have freedom in SunMoon because I'm Lillie's freaking maid.

>>30271609
>Is anything really cannon then?
Toucannon.

>>30271621

You needed to save the fucking world from UBs and wormholes. And you did. Your motives just happened to sync.

>>30271646
Because X has a shitty fucking story. Even its fans admit that much.

>>30271621
So basically what I said. Keep Lusamine a threat.

>>30271613
You've made no argument that supports that. All of you've been doing is arguing that the protagonist doesn't have to act like a protagonist.

>>30271534

I wasn't arguing that Vaan was "Good".
I was giving the other guy what he wanted. A role playing game with a protagonist that drives the plot, while not being the actual main character.

>>30271648
>a character like Lillie with a personality that could possibly really annoy people shouldn't be stuck with you for the whole game.

Literally every video game ever. This is not an argument.

>>30271627
The plot is over when it happens.

>You decide
No, Kukui decides.

>>30271669

Okay, so it's the story and not the protagonists' importance. You're contradicting yourself. I agree, I played it and the story was horrific, but it had nothing to do with the main character being important or not.

>>30271686
He obviously wanted a case where it was actually good. When people ask for these things, they don't want another example of it being done poorly. That strengthens their argument, not yours.

>>30271673

I've been posting the argument the whole time, you just don't know what posts are mine.

We all have a place in the world and we all do our part. Hau was the useless one. We brought a lot to the table of saving the world. Lillie had her connections, which helped you save everyone.

>>30271705
>Okay, so it's the story and not the protagonists' importance.
You're pretty braindead if you don't think one is a symptom of the other.

>>30271731

>Argument is about games stories being done poorly because main character wasn't important enough
>Gives example of acclaimed story where main character was just some dude
>Says that isn't a good example

Dude are you retarded?