>SM has 18 legendaries

>>29934787
Ultra Beasts aren't legendaries.

>>29934806
11 is still a lot.

>>29934806
UBs are legendaries.

Cosmog and Cosmoeg aren't Legendaries, they just evolve into Legendaries.

Most UBs aren't Legendaries, only Solgaleo, Lunala, and Necrozma.

The Tapus aren't Legendaries, just one-per-game interactibles.

Gen VII only has 3 Legendaries, plus 2 Mythicals.

>>29934821
>11
Only Cosmog line, Magearna and Marshadow (also Necrozma) are legendaries.

Actually...

Legendaries (5):

- Cosmog
- Cosmoem
- Solgaleo
- Lunala
- Necrozma

Guardian Deities (4):

- Tapu Koko
- Tapu Lele
- Tapu Bulu
- Tapu Fini

Mythical Pokémon (2):

- Magearna
- Marshadow

Ultra Beasts (7):

- Nihilego
- Buzzwole
- Pheromosa
- Xurkitree
- Kartana
- Celesteela
- Guzzlord

>>29934848
No they aren't

>>29934871
Tapus are a quartet and are legendaries, don't be retarded

X/Y couldn't be fucked to have a trio

ORAS had damn near every legendary trio/mascot

>>29934871
Lol,what a deinalfag.
All of those are legendaries.

>>29934893
Yes,THEY are.

>>29934871

>Cosmog and Cosmoeg aren't Legendaries, they just evolve into Legendaries.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SAq_xLk5do&t=1m9s

>>29934974
>That stuttering
Oh no. My sense of hearing.

>>29934890
The Cosmog line are UBs

>>29934787
There's 7: Cosmog, Cosmoem, Solgaleo, Lunala, Necrozma, Magearna, and Marshadow.

Tapus and UBs aren't legendaries.

>>29934887
/thread

>>29934871
Hey everybody! Look at this retard! LOL

>people counting cosmog or cosmoem as legendaries

top kek, even magikarp gets one attacking move before it evolves, those two don't even get that.

>>29935130
Neither are Magearna and Marshadow. They're Mythicals.

>>29934887
Per the pokedex this is correct.

It'll be interesting to see the national dex and see if it calls trios legendaries or not.

>>29934890
>18 legendaries
just throw away the fucking legendary title, it's trash now

>>29935205
>muh fan criteria
Pokedex says they're legendary they're legendary

>>29935061
Tapus, Silvally line, Cosmog, Cosmoem and UB are allowed in VCG, so they aren't legendaries.


>Tapu = rare and powerful pokemon, not legendaries

>Silvally = rare powerful and artificial pokemon, not legendary

>UB = rare and powerful pokemon from another dimension, not legendaries (even if they can evolve in proper legendaries, like Cosmoem evolve in Solgaleo or Lunala)

So there's only 5 legendaries this time, Solgaleo, Lunala, Necrozma, Marshadow and Magearna.

>Ultra Beasts are legendary
>Ultra Beasts who have stayed in the normal world for an extended period are legendary
???

>>29935251
>Tapus, Silvally line, Cosmog, Cosmoem and UB are allowed in VCG, so they aren't legendaries.
I guess this makes the birds, the beasts, the regis, the fairies, heatran, cresselia the musketeers AND the genies route 1 shitmons and totally not legendaries. Right?

>>29935242
>pokedex also says UBs aren't legendaries

So do we use their criteria only when it tells us what we want to hear?

Legendaries = Unique pokemon

Cosmog,Cosmoem,UBs and Tapus are unque,only 1 or really few of them exist,so they're legendaries

>>29935331
UBs aren't legendary.

>>29935251
PoCompany says they're legends, they're legends
Mythicals also =/= Legends

>>29935324
The website just says "legendaries and Ash-Greninja aren't allowed in VCG"

File: Untitled.png (2MB, 877x1201px) Image search: [Google]

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>XY has 53 legendaries
What do you think of this?

>>29935355
Tell that to OP and half the shitters here, then.

>>29934787
18 pokemon I won't ever care about

>>29935277
To be fair being real fucking old seems to be a requisite to be a Legendary. See Magearna vs Type: Null

>>29935409
Ok

To OP, and half the shitters in here: UBs aren't legendary.

File: IMG_0386.jpg (20KB, 184x184px) Image search: [Google]

20KB, 184x184px

>>29934871
>most UBs
>Solgaleo, Lunala

>>29935425
No, make your own thread and say it, the shitters in question aren't listening because they'd lose their shitposting rights

>>29935432
Cosmog, Lunala, Solgaleo and Necrozma all have their roots in UB dimension.

>>29935401
D/P introduced 30.

From my understanding:

>Tapu Koko, Lele, Bulu and Fini are legendares.
>Cosmog and Cosmoem are also legendary despite evolving since they evolve into the box legends and you can only get two per game.
>Solgaleo and Lunaala are obviously legendaries.
>So is Necrozma.
>Marshadow is technically a mythical, but it can still get categorized as a legendary.

The remaining Ultra Beasts are kind of up for debate. I personally don't think they're legendaries since there's multiple of them and they are considered to be regular pokemon in their home dimension.

I feel like Guzzlord is the only UB that feels legendary, the rest all have multiples.

>>29935230
>now
"flaming toy chicken" has never been worthy of "legendary".

>>29935494
>Tapu Koko, Lele, Bulu and Fini are legendares.
No
>Cosmog and Cosmoem are also legendary despite evolving since they evolve into the box legends and you can only get two per game.
Yes
>Solgaleo and Lunaala are obviously legendaries.
Yes
>So is Necrozma.
Yes
>Marshadow is technically a mythical, but it can still get categorized as a legendary.
Yes
>The remaining Ultra Beasts are kind of up for debate
No, they're just not legendaries at all.

>>29934848
retard you can literally capture 4 of the same UB in one game because they're so common

they are not legendary

>>29935552
>tapus
>not legendaries
literally what

Do you not consider Entei, Raikou, and Suicune legends either? The Musketeers?

Haven't played the game yet, so I'm confused and curious - what is the difference between Legendary and Mythical?

UBs look like they're from .hack

>>29935664
the official site has the Tapus listed on the site, and they have a Legendary section. The Tapus are not listed in the Legendary section. When you click on Legendaries, they only show Solgaleo and Lunaala.

Therefore, Pokemon has already officially confirmed that the Tapus are not Legendaries.

>>29935613
You can only capture 1 of the same UB x game

>>29934806
Oh god this is going to be the new meme argument for the next 3 years isn't it

>>29934787
And How many of them have 600 BST or more?
Let's not exaggerate thing.

>>29935347
Wow, I can't believe that Gen 1 Farfetch'd is a legendary. And apparently Zygarde isn't because I have two of them right now.

>>29935664
Green pokedex entry, not gold.

Lunaala and Solgaleo are UB's

>>29934887
>>29934890
>Necrozma
Is it not an Ultra Beast?

>>29935747
It's not.

>>29935736
>Still thinking UBs,tapus and cosmog are common pokemon

>>29935765
Necrozma is a legendary UB, like Solga/Luna

>>29936046
>Necrozma is a legendary UB
Except it's not. It is a legendary, but it isn't a UB.

>>29936090
except it is, so is solgeleo and lunala

>>29935713
nope

>>29936146
Except it's not.

>>29934787
It's A LOT of legendaries for such a small dex. Is this the highest percentage of legendaries in a Pokémon generation so far or is gen 4 still higher?

>>29935242
"Arcanine
Legendary Pokemon"

>>29936173
The game hints it is, but it never openly says it because it's supposed to be a mystery or something. Think every now and then, why don't you?

>>29936233
It's also calculated wrong because OP is a moron.

>>29935211
All Mythicals are Legendaries, but not all Legendaries are Mythicals.

Can you catch marshadow in game or is he one of those event legendaries like darkria and shit

>>29936378
"But we haven't had any word from HQ about such a UB. It must be simply a rare Pokemon. Still, it's quite remarkable, though." - Looker

>>29936382
Mythicals and Legendaries are in separate groups.

Legendaries are Pokémon that are mentioned in the story universe and frame a region's history.

Mythicals are Pokémon that people aren't sure exist. They rarely, if ever, play a role in the story.

Just because they have near identical base stat totals does not mean they're the same thing.

>>29935679
Legendaries show up in the game.
Mythical pokemon are usually received from events only. Thus they're called "Mythical".

>>29936443
Except a Mythical's status can change at any point, as in the case of Deoxys.

Best to just group Mythical as a subset of Legendary.

the overcategorization of pokemon is fucking stupid

we called mythicals "event legendaries" for YEARS before they added the mythical label. they're still legendaries, just a subcategory of legendaries.

what's REALLY fucking stupid is people saying the tapus aren't legendaries. of course they fucking are. if they're not legendaries, then the legendary birds aren't legendary, the legendary beasts aren't legendary, the regis aren't legendary, the lake trio aren't legendaries, and genies aren't legendaries, and the musketeers aren't legendaries. you can argue that they go in a subcategory of legendaries, but they're still legendaries by the definition of that word in pokemon.

the ultra beasts are admittedly somewhere in between, since you can catch multiples of some of them, but i'd say they're more similar to legendaries than not

Ultra Beasts aren't even Pokemon.

>>29936626
I agree with this.

I want to use the UBs sometime, but I never use legendaries and I would feel bad.

>>29936471
I have literally never heard Mythical used before this gen though. All the event-only Legendaries from earlier gens I always heard referred to as Legendaries, not Mythicals. When did this Mythical thing start?

>>29936626
wait you can catch more than 1 Phermosa?

>>29936762
You catch 4.

>>29936626
The problem is that Pokemon's OFFICIAL SITE has already confirmed the Tapus are not Legendaries. They havea Legendary section on their site. The Tapus aren't in there, while they do show on the site in other categories. Pokemon has officially declared the Tapus aren't Legendary. If you disagree then you deserve to be immediately tortured and executed for defying the literal Word of God.

>>29936772
this just in, zygarde isn't a legendary

>>29936743
I've heard of it before Sun/Moon. They called Celebi a Mythical during gen 6 for the Pokebank thing
Not really sure where the term itself started.

>>29936762
you can catch more than one because they aren't fucking legendaries

>>29936793
Except zygarde's pokedex image has gold borders, while the tapu's is green.
Not legendary.

>>29936831
So what are they? normal pokemon?

>>29936936
>normal pokemon?
They're not even pokemon lol

Gold Pokedex border = Legendary

Therefore the Tapus are not legendary.

>>29936970
They are Pokémon. Not from this world, but they are (the are catchable, have a typing, etc.). It is like other Pokémon that come from space (Clefairy, Deoxys) or from another dimension (Giratina).

>>29936978
so what are they? mythical¿

>>29936978
We don't know if Articuno, Zapdos, Moltres and that would get gold Pokédex border.

>>29934787
Gen 1: 5 legends
Gen 2: 6 legends
Gen 3: 10 legends
Gen 4: 14 legends
Gen 5: 13 legends
Gen 6: 6 legends
Gen 7: 18 legends

Know what this means?
_______________Absolutely nothing.

>>29936831
Only one Guzzlord, guess that makes it a legendary.

>>29937021
Not mythical nor are they legendary

>>29937047
Theirs would most likely be green..

>>29937015
I just checked, the Pokedex at least calls them Pokemon.
The description for Ultra Beasts threw me off there. They were described as something not-Pokemon.

by the definition of legendary we've been using since gen 1, they are legendary. this is indisputable.

the website's "legendary" section obviously refers to the version mascot legendaries, and the pokedex borders similarly refer to the extra-significant legendaries like zygarde, the version mascots, and the mythicals.

>>29934893

They aren't retard

>>29936936
I saw somebody say the ultra beast we see in the game are only similar to weak route mons in their dimension, and that there are more powerful ones existing

Tapus are minor legendaries in the same way as the birds, the dogs, the regis, etc. But they are legendaries.

Mythical Pokémon is the official term for what we called Event Legendaries before. They are legendaries.

Cosmog and Cosmoem are legendaries in the same way as Phione is legendary.

Solgaleo and Lunaala are both UB and legendaries.

We don't know what the fuck is Necrozma, but it is a legendary and maybe a UB in the same way as Solgaleo and Lunaala (despite of what the game says about it).

The rest of the UBs are common Pokémon in the other dimension, but I think in this dimension they have to be treated as (minor) legendaries.

>>29934787
I think you are mistaken
There is actually only 1 legendary and even he is not exactly legendary in a classic sense

Here's the breakdown
4 alola gaurdians (not legendary)
7 ultra beasts (not legendary)
Cosmog, cosmoem, solgaleo and lunala could be considered legendary but they are really a new concept all together.
Magearna and Marshadow are mythical

Necrozma, for all inents and purposes, is
The only legendary from gen 7 (which probably won't be the case when the full alola story unfolds)

>>29937540
This is bait.

The real question is

> Does using tapus and UBs in my team makes me look like a 9 year old?

And the answer is yes, so they are legendary.

Consider the following...
>Ultra Beasts; Creatures from another dimension that are much stronger than the average Pokémon on our world.
>Legendaries; Incredibly rare(and powerful) Pokémon that are either deified or demonized by locals
>Mythicals; Pokémon so rare that most people are unaware of their existence.

>>29934871
Are you retarded?

>>29934848
wut

>>29936090
>>29935765
Necrozma is an UB, It's just that it has been too lond under the midnight sea, it lost the UltraEnergty aura and has it's normal abilities.
Imagine a brittish boy living in america until adulthood. he probably only has american customs, and has the local american accent. You would also think he's american, except he isn't

>>29936233
18 legendaries out of 82 Pokemon
>22% of the gen 7 Pokemon are legendaries

I would assume so.

How to catch Cosmog?

>>29937573
How are facts bait?

I still find it unbelievable the Tapus aren't legendary.

Where are the multiple Tapus, then? Why is there only one of each?

If they aren't legendaries, why are they venerated as protectors of the islands?

>But the pokedex color
I'll bet you 10 dollars Latios and Latias and other lesser legendaries won't have the golden border either, does that automatically make them non-legendary?

>>29937658
>My fan fiction is cannon

>>29937658
Your analogy is not all that good considering how America works.

I'm pretty sure at one point or another that British kid would eventually have to go through the process of becoming officially American.

>>29935613
retard you can literally capture 27 legendaries in ORAS because they're so common.

they are.

>>29937698
Thinking the box legendaries are not legendaries.

Thinking the tapus are not legendaries.

UB are debatable, though.

>>29937699
Yes. They're not normal pokemon, but they aren't legendary. Otherwise GF wouldn't have shown a difference.

>>29936428
The implication is that like Solgaleo and Lunala, it arrived there long before the Ultra Wormhole opened up.

>>29937760
What difference?

>>29937540
>4 alola gaurdians (not legendary)
The 4 Alola guardians are the equivalent of the lengendary trios. They are legendary.
>7 ultra beasts (not legendary)
How exactly are they different from any other legendary. They 100% are.
>Magearna and Marshadow are mythical
Mythicals are still legendaries.

>>29937783
Pokedex.

>>29937760
Isn't the point of legendaries that they're abnormal pokemon? They don't all need to go as far as being literal fucking gods, you know.

I mean, Articuno isn't a regular pokemon, but it isn't on par with, say, Zekrom, however it's not treated as this sort of in-between. It's a legendary pokemon and that's that.

>>29937808
We'll see.

>>29937791
We don't have the other legendaries from previous regions in the Pokédex to compare, so I don't think that is a key point.

Probably the other minor (non-box legendaries and non-mythical) have the same pattern as the tapus.

>>29937808
It's meant literally- they're pokemon strong enough to have legends about them. That's it. No other qualifiers. Hell, the anime specifically shows more than one of the same legendary in one place on a few occasions so they don't even need to be one of a kind- they just need to be strong and have legends about them.

UBs fit the former quality, but they haven't existed long enough outside their own dimension to qualify for the latter save for Solgaleo/Lunala. Necrozma is anyone's guess, since the game dances around its status as a UB despite implying it is with the subtlety and grace they showed with Zygarde (seriously, giving it both Morning Sun and Moolight for no apparent reason should've been a giant clue).

Can we just call them """rares""" and be done with it?

If my theory is correct, the Tapus are, in fact, legendaries, and the only reason the Pokedex doesn't give them a golden border is because they're lesser legendaries.

When Bank is updated someone should get one of the minor legendaries registered to see if they also don't get a golden border.

If I'm wrong I owe you guys doodles!

if im right you must draw me naked

>>29937933
>they're lesser legendaries.
That's all you had to say nigga.

>>29935710
Zygarde isn't in the Legendary section either. Neither is Magearna. This is a shitty fucking argument, now go back to the Serebii forums.

>>29934787
For now we can be sure that
Legendaries: Solgaleo Lunala
Mythical: Magearna
According to the official pokemon site.
The tapus are in the other category along with the rest of the Alola mons and UBs have their own.

>>29937077
2 Guzzlord

File: IMG_7214.jpg (59KB, 952x500px) Image search: [Google]

59KB, 952x500px

>>29937786

>>29937946
But they're still legendaries that's what I'm getting at

We don't really need to have so many categories for pokemons, they're just confusing and unnecessary for the most part. Some gens ago there wouldn't have been a debate like this.

>>29937980
Someone is going to get butthurt about this picture.

>>29937989
>We don't really need to have so many categories for pokemon
Blame GF

>they're still legendaries
Except they're not.

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>>29937962
The official site most likely means cover legendaries. Even if it didn't, it also labels Cosmog in the normal category so it just contradicts itself.

>>29937989
No namefag, there would have been. It just would have ended with OP looking more retarded than he is now, is all.

>>29938002
>Blame GF
True :/

>>29938020
Gen VI was the one that introduced the whole mythical thing. Before that most people agreed on just grouping all those pokemon as legendaries.

>>29937622
This

>>29934890
>all this hair splitting

There are 18 legendaries. Anyone who says otherwise is just desperately trying to defend Gamefreak.

>>29934787
That they're diluting the value of legendaries AND making the game less fun for those who like customizing your mons.

>>29934806
>Ultra Beasts aren't legendaries.
Are they in the undiscovered egg group?
Are they "one per game"?
Do they have fairly high BST?
Are they somehow tied to the story?

Then yes, those are legendaries.

>>29938426
>Are they "one per game"?
You literally get 4 of one of them.

>>29938484
Which one, Nihilego?

It might not be a legendary then, depending if the other factors hold true.

(You still get it in a limited amount, though. You usually can get as many of non-legendary Pokemon you want outside gen1.)

So if the Tapus aren't legendaries, are the Elfs being retconned to non-legendary status?

Unless Gamefreak states whether or not they're legendaries, all we can do is guess based on arbitrary patterns seen in past games, which Gamefreak has shown to not give a shit about anymore.

>>29938571
UB-02 Beauty.

>>29934890
I honestly doubt you've counted these things like this your whole waking life, kys

>>29938350
prove the UB's are legendary please

no one has in any of these threads and I just laugh

>>29939059
>no one has in any of these threads and I just laugh
I kinda hinted the criteria for a legendary, see >>29938426

I won't bother proving they are or they are not, though.

>>29936535
No. Deoxys is still a Mythical Pokémon.

This is a quote in ORAS: "Extrapolating from the energy readings we observed seems to show evidence of the Mythical Pokémon that lives in space: Deoxys."

In addition, Deoxys caught in ORAS have the "fateful encounter" tag, which is NEVER available on legendaries. Only Mythicals that can be encountered and caught in the wild can have this tag.

And it's not best to group Mythicals as a subset of Legendaries since they serve entirely different purposes:

- Legendaries: Part of the history and story (mentioned in legends or by NPCs). Are available in the game without external support. Test a trainer's ability to catch powerful Pokémon in the wild.

- Mythicals: Rarely, if ever, mentioned in the story. Are not necessary to complete the games. Mythicals reward people for continuing to play the games and supporting the franchise.

>>29936626

>we called mythicals "event legendaries" for YEARS before they added the mythical label. they're still legendaries, just a subcategory of legendaries.

Legendaries and Mythicals were always designated in different groups, as far back as 1996 when Mew was announced.

Legendaries in Japanese were called (Densetsu no Pokémon) "Pokémon of Legends."

Mythicals in Japanese were called (Maboroshi no Pokémon) "Pokémon of Phantoms."

It's the stupid localization's fault for failing to notice this until it was too late.

I bet the same people also call the friendship mechanic "happiness" too.

>>29939140
except that

>Are they "one per game"?

Is wrong.

So there goes your fucking argument. Bye.

>>29935389

No.

http://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-news/a-new-pokemon-vgc-format-starts-in-december/

>Some Legendary and Mythical Pokémon banned, including Solgaleo, Lunala, and Magearna

Deal with it fukboi.
Tapus and Ultra Beasts are internally considered part of the "legendary group" despite having special classifications, they're just not big enough to get banned like Solgaleo, Lunala, and Necrozma.

>>29939207
>your argument
Are you unable to read?

I literally said that I won't bother proving they are or they are not. I won't bother with arguments, it's just a bunch of criteria.

Do I need to use simpler words?

>>29939207
Also. Those criteria aren't clear-cut. Manaphy for example breaks the "undiscovered egg group" criterium, but good luck finding someone who doesn't consider it a legendary.

>>29935613
Legendary in-story, not in the game itself. Otherwise, you'd only have a handful of people around the world with a Mewtwo, for example.

>>29935613
You can get two Solgaleo/Lunala in one game so I guess the box legendaries aren't legendary pokemon either.

>>29937015
I mean what ISN'T a pokemon in the pokemon universe? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that any living thing that isn't human seems to be catchable.

>>29939172
>Mythicals in Japanese were called (Maboroshi no Pokémon) "Pokémon of Phantoms."
Source? The only thing remotely similar to what you said is the Japanese name of the second movie, and even then it's referring to Lugia, who is a legendary pokemon.

Yes, I consider them legendaries on the same group as the lake fucks or the gerbils. Here's why.

>Finite number
You aren't supposed to get more than a certain finite number of each species in a game without external means. You can't breed them, you can't look for more on tall grass. After you got your 4th UB-02* then that's it, you won't get more with the resources.

* People said this about Pheromosa, but I think it's safe to assume it applies to Buzzwole too.

>Battle stats total
All of them have a BST of 570, almost the same as the kami, birds, gerbils and all those lower legendaries.

The exception is Necrozma, its 600 BST ties it with Mew, Celebi, Dennis, all those event-exclusive fucks. Except Mew is under the truck, and you can get Jirachi if you look at the white rock at the proper conditions. Maybe you can get Necrozma by doing a voodoo ritual.

>Connection to the story
Part of the story revolves around them _as species_, they're far more relevant in this regard as Articuno, Uxie or Raikou.
inb4 Marowak and Gyarados _as species_ aren't connected to Red and Gold, only _those_ individual Marowak and Gyarados among so many others.

>>29940025
>with the resources
*with the resources of the game without external means (another copy, Pokémon bank, injection THANKS DOC...)

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41KB, 512x384px

>>29934806
ok

what a bunch of fuckin' fags! The Tapus are legendaries. Denial fags can go kill themselves. So are the Cosmog line, Necrozma, and the 2 Mythicals (which is just a sub-set of legendaries). Only the UBs are in-between, kinda like Phione.

>>29937681
You can't catch it directly. Instead, you have to go through some portal and meet a Cosmog at some lake on Ula'ula Island.

>>29937699
It's not the first time a normal Pokemon can be caught once


Perhaps they're just really rare in Alola which is why they view them as protectors

>>29934871
How the hell are the Tapus not legendaries.
Have you even played the game?

>>29937919
Yes

>>29940489
Hurrhurr my Pokedex doesn't use the same background color as it does for Solgaleo/Lunala so dey not legendary

File: 250px-Mimikyu.png (34KB, 250x250px) Image search: [Google]

34KB, 250x250px

How do I get Mimikyu?
I can't find it.
Yes I have done the trial.

>>29934787
Sinnoh remakes confirmed

>>29935061

Solgaleo and Lunala are listed as legendary Pokemon in the official site, retard

>>29935736
>Gen 1 Farfetch'd
Was obtainable in the wild in Yellow.

With that criteria, Jynx was Legendary outside of Japan, though.

>>29940684
But you can get more than one so they're clearly not Legendary.

>>29939172
Get a load of this weeb

>>29935729
All UBs except for Necrozma have 570 BST, so they aren't legends

>>29938426
>Are they in the undiscovered egg group?
Manaphy isn't a legendary?
>Are they "one per game"?
Zygarde isn't a legendary?
>Are they somehow tied to the story?
The legendary birds aren't legendary?

>>29942002
See >>29939346

>>29939901

http://www.pokemon.co.jp/ex/sun_moon/pokemon/

>伝説のポケモン

Solgaleo, Lunala, Zygarde

>幻のポケモン

Magearna

>>29942002
You know, the problem here is, is that UBs have all those 4 elements at the same time.

>>29934871
What's that about the Tapus?

How do you get them?