VGC Speculation

Shameless self bump

Tapus and ultra beasts will be all anyone sees since the majority of other pokemon are too slow AND frail

>>29843696
What about Minior, it gets good moves with decent stats in both forms

>>29843574
Viable old pokemon:
Clefairy
Clefable
Crobat
Porygon 2
Arcanine
Politoed
Pelliper
Torkoal
Gigalith
Scizor
Gyarados
Smeargle
Hariyama
Sableye
Miltoic
Beartic
Salamence
Metagross
Gastrodon
Garchomp
Lucario
Whimsicott
Talonflame

Viable Alolamons
Vikavolt
Incineroar
Primarina
Lycanrock Day
Toxipex
Drampa
Shiinotic
Minior
Dhelmise
Tapu Koko
Tapu Fini
Tapu Lele
Tapu Bulu
Raichu A
Golem A
Ninetails A

It's an approximate list.

>>29843712
Minior will be more popular in singles

Pheromosa + Tapu Lele...

>>29844019
I forgot a few pokemon in the old list. Slowbro, Weavile, Gengar, Frosslass and PGZ are also viable. Here are a few archetypes I expect to see

1. Rain/Electric Terrain
Staple pokemon: Politoed, Pelliper, Tapu Koko, Raichu A, Gastrodon, Scizor, Metagross

These teams will focus on keeping up rain to cover up fire weaknesses of their main powerhouses and give accuracy to powerful attacks like thunder and hurricane.

2. Trick Room
Staple pokemon: Slowbro, Porygon2, Gigalith, Hariyama, Dhelmise, Incineroar, Torkoal, Drampa

These teams will focus on fucking over teams of faster pokemon by keeping up trick room, and taking advantage of the two super slow weather setters to get rid of rain.

Garchomp, Salamence and Minior will be fucking everywhere. Anything with Destiny Bond is viable due to Z-Destiny Bond

>>29844063
UBs will be banned. They are not part of the Alola dex proper and Nintendo literally said their banlist isn't complete and will be updated after the games launch.

>>29844247
Yes. they are.
They're allowed in the battle tree.
The banlist will be updated to include Necrozma, since he's banned there.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/spoilers-early-vgc-2017-interesting-pokemon.3585002/

Lacks stuff from after the datamine but here's a list of general doubles staples and what gets it.

>>29844247
>>29844281
We really won't know until they update the ruleset.

I hope they are allowed, it would be quite a shame to not allow them. They are just BST 570 so they are more or less Tapu equivalents and those fuckers are gonna be everywhere already.

>>29844281
The battle tree also allows pokemon that aren't in the Alola regional dex. It's likely that VGC rules prohibit UBs this season.

Nintendo would be absolutely retarded to not do this because genwunners tuning into the stream after being heavily pandered to in GO will hate these things. If UBs are permitted the only ones that will be used are Celesteela, Kartana, Buzzwole and Pheromosa. Kartana will be used on rain teams and will be countered by Arcanine. Pheromosa and Buzzwole are basically hard countered by Toxipex. Celesteela is in the weird position of both being good on rain teams and bad against rain teams.

>>29844370
>Nintendo would be absolutely retarded to not do this because genwunners tuning into the stream after being heavily pandered to in GO will hate these things
We already had this with VGC16. No one gives literally a shit about GOnormies, specially after they've already given away their shekels. GO is nowhere as big anymore anyway.

>If UBs are permitted the only ones that will be used are Celesteela, Kartana, Buzzwole and Pheromosa
Literally will never happen. If UB are allowed or not it'll be all of them or none of them. TCPi has never done any sort of in-betweens when not banning stuff from the format like that.

>Kartana will be used on rain teams and will be countered by Arcanine. Pheromosa and Buzzwole are basically hard countered by Toxipex.
Are you seriously and truthfully saying that because X has a counter it means X is useless? By your logic all Tapus are shit because Gengar outspeeds them and kills them all with Sludge Bomb.

>>29844019
Extremely generous alolamons list. Half of those are shitmons. Also missing old pokemon like magnezone and weavile off the top of my head

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>>29844454
lmao, I'm saying that the other ones either suck or probably won't have a role in the meta (Nihiligeo is good but x4 ground weak when Garchomp is going to be on maybe 50-60% of teams is kind of bad). Of course they'd all be permitted or none at all, but what the fuck do you see Guzzlord doing in any Nintendo meta?

I'm not saying that things are useless because they have counters, I'm saying that certain pokemon will be more prominent in the meta because they help you deal with stronger overall pokemon. Stop putting words into my post sir.

>>29844585
>Weavile
Understandable.

>Magnezone
I've literally never seen anyone use this fucker in Doubles.

>>29844596
>I'm saying that the other ones either suck or probably won't have a role in the meta

>If UBs are permitted the only ones that will be used are
You are right. My bad, it seems I misread.

>(Nihiligeo is good but x4 ground weak when Garchomp is going to be on maybe 50-60% of teams is kind of bad).
That's why you'd pack it alongside, say Tapu Bulu.

>but what the fuck do you see Guzzlord doing in any Nintendo meta?
Now he's unsalvageable. Poor guy.

>I'm not saying that things are useless because they have counters, I'm saying that certain pokemon will be more prominent in the meta because they help you deal with stronger overall pokemon
Well, of course. That's how every meta works. I certainly agree with you here as well.

Koko+Raichu+Pelipper shenanigans
Oranguru, Comfey, and Shiinotic have good synergy with other mons
Celesteela and Guzzlord will be more popular than they will be in singles, I think

>>29844736
I find A-Raichu + Koko is overrated.

Raichu is already fast enough to take advantage of ES boost. It'll be the gimmick of the month until people realize Raichu is better being semi-support as it's always been in doubles since it became a decent mon.

>>29844663
Magnezone is generally used as a boltbeam resist but I think being x4 ground weak sucks in this meta so much, Bulu might help but Bulu is probably the weakest Tapu overall.

You'd think that it would help save you from Garchomp EQ, but max attack poison jab very comfortably 2HKOs max defense max HP Bulu. OHKOs low defense sets.

>>29843574
>Tapukoko Kokomo
I'm genuinely confused by this. Is this just supposed to be Tapu Koko? Tapu Koko and Kommo-o? I don't understand.

>>29844888
>Poison Jab
Ehhhh

Garchomp doubles set is usually full already with EQ, Doragon Kurou, Rock Slide and Protect. I can maybe see Rock Slide getting replaced with all the damn fairies, specially the Tapus, around though.

>>29844933
It's obviously Tapu Koko. OP made a typo or had a heart attack while making his post or something.

>>29844019
Pretty sure silvally is going to be viable somehow.

Tapu Lele will be the first Tapu that everyone jumps to and will have a presence the whole year.

Tapu Koko will start out unpopular but later on becomes the Rayogre of the season.

Tapu Fini will be niche until Primarina gets its HA. It will then become non-existent within the meta.

Tapu Bulu a shit.

>>29845046
>Primarina gets its HA

Which doesn't get a 30% boost

>>29845110
Still better than Torrent, and still better than a bulky water/fairy that can't burn with scald.

>>29844981
I'm sure 99% of Chomp players will sack one of his moves for jab just because of the literally Tapu on every team bullshit. I think someone will come up with weird bullshit mixed chomp set #23423 that is specifically tailored to bait out Salamence counters.

Z-Draco Meteor will be disgusting, and the only thing stopping it is fairy spam. I think most 'haymaker' teams that lean heavily on classic powerhouses will focus on fairy elimination before bringing in Salamence to drop the fucking hammer with his super dragon gem Draco Meteor, OHKO some poor piece of shit then drop the actual meteor the next turn to end the game.

Also some dark weak pokemon like Metagross will probably just carry Z-crystals because they prevent knock offs like mega stones did.

>>29845040
Its movepool is actually fucking ass, it'll be used but I doubt you'll see one in top 10. Then again there's no way you'll see some of the other shit i listed like Ninetails or Golem in top 10 either.

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>>29845046
>Tapu Lele will be the first Tapu that everyone jumps to and will have a presence the whole year.
That's Koko.

>Tapu Koko will start out unpopular but later on becomes the Rayogre of the season.
That's Fini.

>Tapu Fini will be niche until Primarina gets its HA. It will then become non-existent within the meta.
>He actually thinks Primarina is good

You faggots who understimate Fini are in for a rough time.

>115/130 defenses with an excellent defensive typing
>95 spt atk not stupidly good but plenty decent
>Only Tapu who's not lacking a vital move, Play Rough for Bulu and Koko and Trick Room for Lele
>Misty makes her immune to stats
>Maker her partner inmune to stats which means the good old Swagger your partner for a free +2 combo is back
>Completely neuters Draco Meteor + Z-Draco Meteor spam with Misty
>You can't even wear her down by trying to burn her or poison her
>Can double-dip you with water moves because Muddy Water too, hope you enjoy that acc drop at the most crucial time
>Moonblast and Dazzling, Ice Beam and Blizzard. Literally all the offensive moves she needs.
>Speaking of Blizzard enjoy throwing 100% accurate Blizzards with A-Ninetales setting hail at your side AND with A-Ninetales makes you even harder to kill with Aurora Veil
>Can even heal your ass with Heal Pulse

I'm completely baffled as to why people think she's shit.

>>29845290
Yeah, the more calcs I do on Koko the worse it gets. I think Lele and Fini will be the two best Tapu but I'm sure Koko will still be very common.

>>29845413
Koko can still run a nice mixed set, but he and Koko+A-Raichu will the be new shiny toys that everyone will want to use at first until people realize that there's better toys to play with deeper into the toy box.

I guarantee you that the britbong international thingy will be full of Koko+A-Raichu teams. If any of you faggots are going there make your team to counter-team that. I bet my right ball that that will be the right meta call to do.

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>>29845290
>light clay increases aurora veil duration to 7 turns
>light screen and reflect stack with aurora veil

holy fuck stall is actually going to be viable in doubles isn't it?

>>29845214
Yeah, I don't think Silvally will be top tier or anything.
It's still versatile enough that there's some important niche it should fill, especially with the restricted dex.

>>29845499
The best part is that the new timer actually favors stall in vgc.

It's gonna be hilarious how this will end up biting back TCPi and GF.

Fucking Minior:
@White Herb/Sitrus Berry/Weakness Policy
Naughty
72 HP/ 252 Atk/ 184 Sp.Atk
-Shell Smash
-Earthquake
-Power Gem
-Acrobatics

Basically take a hit while Smashing. The HP investment lets you take a few hits after you change forms. White Herb is a sure way to activate Acrobatics, Sitrus Berry can keep you in it's shelled form a little longer if it can take a weak hit or two, and Weakness Policy is pretty obvious. You don't need speed investment after Smashing, because Minior outspeeds a good portion of the meta. Also in doubles having trippy fish or queen plant might be useful if their ability extends to their teammate.

>>29845580
Also Quick Guard can help with those priority moves, as Minior is weak to most of them.

>>29844247
>>29844370
Nintendo has no involvement in the VGC rules.

>>29844247

>They are not part of the Alola dex proper

I see entries for the beasts, unlike the rest of the national dex (which is completely absent).

They're in.

>>29846089
But still are not part the AlolaDex.

People are underselling Bulu:

>252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cresselia in Grassy Terrain: 217-256 (95.5 - 112.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

>-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Gyarados in Grassy Terrain: 177-211 (87.6 - 104.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

>+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross in Grassy Terrain: 175-207 (93.5 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

>252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp in Grassy Terrain: 230-270 (125.6 - 147.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

>>29846330
Damn, that's stronk.

It's a shame Heatran is not allowed. He and Bulu are ultimate buttbuddies.

>>29846122

So what are they part of if the national dex isn't in SM?

>>29846395
Buy PokeBank and find out :^)

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>>29844019
Mimimyu will at least be UU.

>>29846330
That and Steel, Rock, Fire, and Poison types will love the EQ nerf Grassy Terrain give them. Not to mention having Pelipper on the team will give Steel types even more safety.

Speaking of, what do you guys think will be the most common Weather & Terrain combo?

>>29846446
>VGC Speculation

>>29846454
Rain + Surge obviously. The 100% Thunders on Rain are ridiculously braindead.

Psychic would have been good with Trick Room but because no more Fake Out and Prankster Taunt to cockblock you but LOL I'M GAMEFREAK AND I WON'T GIVE LELE TRICK ROOM XD

Grassy and Misty really don't combine well with the other weathers.

Grassy with Sun has potential. Heatran would love both of them.

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Is Raichu any better in this Gen?

>>29846460
My mistake, assumed he meant singles.

>>29846518
He'll be as good as ever. Perhaps a little better because A-Raichu gets a new STAB to hit things with but also some new weaknesses. No Lightning Rod either if A-Raichu too.

Can someone link the leaked stats/dex/movepools? I want to theorymon.

I thought Trick Room might see a lot of play due to how slow a lot of Alola's new Pokemon are, but it doesn't seem like there are a lot of viable setters.

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Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Merciless
EVs: 252 HP/252 SpA/4 SpDef
Modest Nature
~Baneful Bunker
~Recover
~Surf
~Venoshock

Palossand @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Water Compaction
EVs: 252 HP/100 SpA/156 SpDef
Sassy Nature
~Earth Power
~Giga Drain
~Shore Up
~Shadow Ball/Toxic

Basically, once you Surf with Toxapex, Palossand eats the Surf, gets the +2 Def and is free to start spoutin' off his attacks. Ground+Grass+Ghost has incredible coverage and he has the ability to recover on his own with Shore Up. Leftovers are there to provide additional healing, but Life Orb is there to provide addtional damage. With how pitiful Toxapex's damage is outside of Merciless crits, even if Water Compaction doesn't work like Water Absorb or LightningRod (where there's no damage), taking one Surf isn't going to hurt too bad. Toxic can be used over Shadow Ball to get off a sure-fire Poison for Toxapex to do its work.

>>29846536
Well, not interested in A-Raichu, don't like the design.

Was thinking with the Z Moves, Status included, Raichu might have gotten some kind of edge somewhere.

>>29846553
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Yx61tXCHTp9PqvluxdN1Xi2zcUxATI1f3uS7UHtpeQ0/htmlview?sle=true#

>>29846557
>Z-Moves
Raichu is semi-support in doubles dude. Your last focus with him should be to want to kill things with him. He'd rather have a focus sash than a Z-Crystal. And other things would do better with a Z-Crystal than it. He's pretty much the same he was in Gen 6.

>>29846556
Sounds rather gimmicky.

>>29846587
>Gimmicky
Isn't that the point of theorymonning? To find a gimmick that works the most effective?

A +2 Palossand tanks a shit ton, can buff to +4 and +6 as Toxapex shits out Surfs as necessary that deal pitiful damage to him but Crit the other side.

Can anyone confirm if Water Compaction voids damage?

>>29846587
Jesus, that's a huge clusterfuck. I wish we had access to that program used in the leak videos that display every bit of info of the Pokemon.

Togedemaru is definitely going to see some use. Lightningrod in a Koko/Raichu meta, Fake Out, Encore, and having the only 100% accurate move that always paralyzes helps it out a ton, and allows it to support the slow Alolan dex. I'm thinking a Tapu Bulu/Togedemaru/Crabominal core might be interesting.

>>29846704
>Clusterfuck
This is as simplified as it gets. Everything is neatly organized in there. Don't be lazy.

>>29846702
it doesn't

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>>29846743
>Crabominable
Not even TR saves this thing.

>Lightningrod in a Koko/Raichu meta, Fake Out, Encore, and having the only 100% accurate move that always paralyzes helps it out a ton
Raichu does all that but better.

>B-But Steel/Electric
Sure will help you with Garchomp everywhere.

Stop trying to be the next Sejun so hard.

>>29846792
>accusing people of trying to be the next Sejun when no one has any idea what's viable yet
Kill yourself, anime poster.

You might be right in that A Ninetails is probably a better replacement for Crabominal there.

So with the nerf to T-Wave and paralysis in general do you think A-Raichu will rank high since it's Z-Move has 175 BP and causes paralysis?

>>29846771
Damn that's too bad. Still, Toxapex has shit damage output for non critical.

>>29843574
I'm wondering if guzzlord might be viable, assuming UBs are allowed.

My current idea:

Guzzlord @ Normalium-Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Def/252 SpD/4 Atk
Sassy Nature
-Dragon Tail
-Crunch
-Stockpile
-Heavy Slam/Rest

>>29846852

Sure, but you need to poison your enemy and no one will focus in toxakek in doubles

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>>29843574
Tapu Fini and any Pokemon that learns Flatter.
Unless Tapu Fini itself learns Swagger.

Tapu Fini also fucks over the enemy's attempts to apply status to me or themselves.

>>29846917
Fini gets swagger.

Someone have the pastebin with the z-moves variations?

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>>29846941
GG no re.
Is there literally any reason to not put that ugly clam in your doubles team?

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>>29846817
>Complaining about posting anime on a board dedicated to a Japanese franchise on a imageboard created for posting chinese cartoons

>accusing people of trying to be the next Sejun when no one has any idea what's viable yet
Then maybe you shouldn't be trying to use a pikaclone just for the sake of using it completely missing the point of why Sejun used the squirrel in first place.

Togodemaru puts a stop to koko/A-Raichu spam. It resists all three stabs and raichu will have to use focus blast.

I think it'll be decent against all the tapus, it resists ALL their stabs and can hit them with poison jab

>>29846911
That's what Toxic Spikes is for, using Baneful Bunker, or having Palossand use Toxic on a target.

The biggest crux is Tapu Fini and Misty Terrain wiping out status. In which case, Palo can still Giga Drain for SE if he stays in while you either let Toxapex tank Fini because Fini can do nothing to her, or hardtag Toxapex out into a more suitable counter.

Does anyone have a paste bin of hold items and their effects?

>>29846992
Yeah, I'm sure Togedemaru will be walling everything with that hardcore 65/63/73 bulk and killing all the Tapus with that amazing 98/40 offense.

>>29847034
>Toxic Spikes in VGC
>Doubles
You are starting to reach here anon.

>>29846990
We're theorymonning you fucking idiot. Toge's steel typing is going to be great against Tapus, which will absolutely be prevalent. Bulu's ability also kills Earthquake, which, while still super effective, only hits at 75% power to begin with thanks to being doubles. It getting Super Fang and not being killed by Knock Off separates it from Raichu.

>>29846973
Muh Koko-A-Raichu meme team!

I'm happy to see someone else whose eyes are open to the wonders of Fini.

>>29847060
Well, I'm theorymonning too and I'm saying your theorymonning is shit. What are you gonna do about it? Call me a meanie poo poo head?

>>29846973
Fini is not ugly!

>>29847095
I don't know why you're getting so angry over the possibility of Togedemaru seeing use. It's a great check to the Raichu/Tapu combo, and has good synergy with the likes of Gyarados.

>>29847138
I'm not angry. I'm simply expressing my opinion too, you are the one getting angry over someone disagreeing with your opinion.

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>>29847075
Why would you run a team of two frail Electric types in a format where you can hit them both with Earthquake in one turn?
If anything an Electric Surge + Drizzle team would be better since now you have STAB boosted, Electric Terrain boosted, 100% accurate Thunders plus the excellent typing that is Water.

Meanwhile Tapu Fini gets instant Safeguard that also messes with the ever so popular Dragon type, amazing defenses, Calm Mind, Substitute, Swagger to abuse the instant Safeguard, and coverage moves such as Ice Beam and Moonblast.

I could put this thing next to a Lighting Rod Pikachu and Swagger and give it Soak just to have Pikachu cuck Raichu like he's always have.

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>>29847394
>Why would you run a team of two frail Electric types in a format where you can hit them both with Earthquake in one turn?

B-B-But muh Surge Surfer! Muh Terrain boosted super fast thunderbolts! It's such a good combination! You just don't understand!

As I mentioned >>29845474 Koko suffers from shiny new toy syndrome, specially because he was the first Tapu revealed. Most people haven't looked at all beyond the surface.

Fini is fucking amazing as I also mentioned >>29845290 here. She gets everything she needs. Heck, you can even use her with rain too now that you mention it. Pack a Lightning Rod user and now even Pelipper won't have to worry about his x4 weakness.

You can EVEN take it further beyond and just go Pelipper/Fini/Koko/Raichu for Lightning Rod and another E-Terrain spammer or a Ground type who would love the Swagger boosts.

>>29847527
Is pelipper actually good?

>>29847552
It gets Drizzle so he is now.

>>29844816
A-Raichu is good in electric terrain because it gets speed swap and can give its speed to one of the high-attack no-speed mons that we got in G7

>>29843574
A-Raichu benefits from most Terrain types, but that doesn't make it a good Pokemon. Castform benefits from most weathers.

>>29846330
I think the problem with Bulu is that most of the redirection options are also weak to poison. especially with the unpredictability or sludgebomb vs sludgewave on a lot of pokemon, unless you have something with both wide guard and follow me/ragepowder they'll likely know which move to use to hit bulu

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IN GEN 7, MEGA EVOLUTION CHANGES TAKE PLACE ON THE TURN YOU MEGA EVOLVE, SO BANETTE GETS PRANKSTER TURN ONE.

Thoughts on this and MegaBanette, and thoughts on this box full of Cotton Guard Banettes from Dream World Gen 5 event?

>>29847724
>mega evolution
>vgc

>>29847724
>VGC Speculation

>>29847769
>>29847799
Was just curious about some general input from resident pros, you know...

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>>29843574
>maxing speed
>in vgc

>>29847820
It'll be as shit as it's always been because this little detail does nothing to fix the core issues of Mega Banette. Happy? Now get out.

>>29844370
Are you actually retarded or just pretends?

am I the only one thinking about making a sand team? we got gigalith and dugtrio that work as a diet Ttar+exca, Garchomp, Azumarill, Salamence, and lots of other nice stuff.

BTW tapu lele is pretty much gardevoir but better in every way possible. You can slap a scarf on it and destroy the game.

>>29847947
gigalith with gravity might be fun with sand rush exca

>>29848097
exca isn't in the alola dex tho, we're stuck with A-dugtrio

>>29848129
There's also Sandslash! That's just as good! R-Right?

So since a good portion of the new mons seem to be VGC oriented, along with my new bro Oranguru, I'm wondering how to get into it myself.
What sites are there to learn VGC? What are some good mons or teams to start with?

>>29848249
>What sites are there to learn VGC?
nuggetbridge.com/forums/topic/18611-article-and-resource-index/

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>>29848268
Thank you

>>29848129
>>29848218
a-dugtrio with sand force is probably a better choice than sand rush sandslash thanks to the dugtrio attack boost. it's frail, but with all the guard/redirection in VGC and a sash it should be fine.
rock slide/EQ/iron head is a good start, with sucker punch (if not using psychic terrain to block priority - speaking of which, what relevant pokemon have aqua jet/mach punch/vaccuum wave?), stone edge (for when you know wide guard is coming out and need to hit pelipper), or memento (hilarious sash plays)

>>29848218
>>29848300
You can't get a normal sandslash with the cross.

>>29847148
You're the one who started throwing insults, buddy