Can they be salvaged?

>>29795868
no

>>29795868
Hail teams seem to have gotten a buff this time around. 2 more hail setters, one of which comes with Aurora veil. I can see A-Sandslash being a pretty alright Hail sweeper with Slush Rush. Ice/Steel makes it 4x weak to Fighting and Fire, but it also offers it a lot of switch in chances. It also gets Rapid spin, so it might even take on a vague Ice Excadrill role.

>>29795868
Alolan Raticate is pretty terrible since it tries to be more defensive, although Thick Fat is nice.

Alolan Persian has the moves to pull off something nice. All of its abilities are pretty useful.

Alolan Sandslash is just sad. Honestly, we got everything we could out of it after knowing about its slower and more defensive stats. That typing just doesn't work out defensively. Slush Rush could certainly help it out, though.

>>29795868
Alolan raticate should have gotten strong jaw

>>29795868
Only Snowslash, the ability + Hail will help it immensely and with Psychic Terrain it doesn't fear Mach Punch. But other then that, nothing else can be said about the others.

>>29795868
Got the stats for the other Alola-form mons?

>>29795917
>we got everything we could out of it after knowing about its slower and more defensive stats
It's not slower. They took stats out of Special Attack and put them in Defense.

>>29795868
>Raticate
>Sandslash
>Tyrogue used Vacuum Wave

>>29795906
There is no reason to use Snowslash when Beartic exists

>>29796604
Instead of one Slush Rush user, you can run two.

>>29796604

snowslash surprisingly has tons of resistances once you ignore hits obvious 4x fire, 4x fighting and x2 ground.

beartic has better attack tho, so yeah, he will pull slush rush better.

>>29795868
Physically strong
>slow
>ice
>type
Can they stop doing this with every ice mon not named mamoswine and the sneasel line?

>>29796671
Slush Rush my mang

458 Speed with 252 and a neutral nature

while Beartic's looking at 398 speed

we just got 2 physical ice type bruisers that outspeed Weavile

the REAL tragedy here is the strongest steel STAB snowslash gets is fucking Metal Claw, so its still far from being ice type Excadrill.

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>>29795917
>Alolan Persian has the moves to pull off something nice. All of its abilities are pretty useful.
Name a Special Dark type move it can use that's 60 BP or less so it can get SOME mileage out of Technician.

Fur Coat and Rattled just aren't going to save it.

>>29795868
Persian is mostly bad, but I think being a fast Parting Shot user can carve it a decent niche, even better when Darkinum-Z Parting Shot also has Healing Wish packed in.

>>29795917
The only salvageable one is fucking snowslash and that because of slush rush, otherwise it's also fucking useless
>>29796754
If by some miracle it can learn snarl, it would have a niche being the first ever specs technician user as every other technician is physical, but still be trash

>>29796752
It gets Iron Head from Sandshrew.

>>29795868
Alola sandslash is weak too the easiest types to counter
Ill settle for RU

>>29796813
It actually does learn Snarl.

>>29796821
Oh shit so it does

nevermind, I'm back aboard the ice train.

praise be unto fairytales, lord of dualscreens

now how do I fix Vikavolt cause goddamn it was my absolute favorite gen7 mon right up until that base speed

>>29796861
Doubles Trick Room

>>29796861
>Trick Rooming a mon with Slush Rush

I already use Doubles Trick room, with based Mega Steelix and it's backup band of rock types. But we've now got 5 and a half fast ice types, so I'm excited to see what they can muster without trick room

Trick Room is the ONLY thing that will even remotely save Crabominable though.

>>29796848
Oh, well there it is
Any other special moves 60 or below or did it get cucked almost as hard as Zygarde?

>>29796754
>fur coat
>nasty plot
>special move pool
>?

>>29796900
>>29796874
oh goddammit you were responding to the spoiler I'm retarded. Disregard me.

>>29796754
>pyukumuku gets new unaware and no offensive moves
>persian-A gets technician annd high SpA with next to nothing that it can use
>popplio line gets new ability thats basically worthless
>etc.

come on game freak what are you thinking

>>29795917
What's GF obsession with defensive Ice types?

They simply do not work.

>>29795868
Persian might actually find a home in a lower tier, it's effectively about as physically bulky as Skarmory, has a good movepool, and is very fast for NU standards. NU is as far as it'll go, but it's at least going to find room there.

>>29796641
>snowslash surprisingly has tons of resistances once you ignore hits obvious 4x fire, 4x fighting and x2 ground.
And the loss of its Rock resistance. And the loss of its Steel resistance. Good thing that it resists Ice so well though, that usually fucks Steel pretty hard.

>>29796929
it's weird because steel is supposed to be the slow bulky type, ice would be the opposite, a glass cannon type, except they make defensive types instead, and then don't buff ice type defensively

>>29796923

>high spA
>75

>>29795868
Snowslash + Slush Rush makes me hopeful.

The other two are disappointing, especially considering that I was actually using a Persian and Raticate in Generation VI already and was hoping Generation VII would give them some better additions.

>>29796962
*higher than it's attack

my bad typed it wrong

>>29796923
You'll be able to give Primarina Boomburst at some point, mark my words

>>29796813

Mr. mime is special with technician and the very gimmick smeargle

>>29795868
Technician A-Persian could be good with Screech and Fury Swipes or STAB Beat Up.

A-Sandslash could setup Hail and potentially Spikes. Def isn't terrible either.

A-Raticate just seems bad. I have a soft spot for Dark types but I don't think this fucker's gonna be on my team for long.

Alolan Persian @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Amnesia
- Dark Pulse
- Taunt

I gave it a shot, and came up with this. You could reinvest speed into HP and give it a modest nature, but I really don't know!

>>29796950
Think less of it as a Steel type with shitall additional resists and more of an Ice type with a nice assortment of resists

>>29796903
Technician Hidden Power is pretty nice.

>>29796903
Special Moves A-Persian learns with BP 60 or under:

Echoed Voice
Hidden Power
Round
Snarl
Swift

It's pretty limited to say the least.

>>29797026
Man, regular Persian got Water Pulse and Shock Wave

>>29797026
why do all the mons this gen with good abilities have so little they can abuse it with?

toucannon gets sheer force and has literally 5 moves that work with it, 2 of those being flame charge and rock smash

Alolan Raticate @ Salac Berry
Ability: Gluttony
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Quick Attack
- Crunch

Another attempt, thought to make use of its gluttony ability

>>29796998
Shit really? i had no idea they had technician
But then again i rarely see them using it in the first place so there's that
>>29797025
>>29797026
I can work with that

A-Persian @ Choice specs
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 def/ 252 SPA/ 252 Spe
Timid
-Snarl
-Hidden power ice
-Swift
-Echoed voice for spamming since it goes up every use
What do you guys think?

>>29797078
Roserade also gets Technician

>>29797081
Fuck, that one i actually remember using once, i feel dumb holy shit

>>29797078
nah, no need for swift if it you're using echoed voice, and even thats a gimmick

honestly snarl and HP whatever will probably be the only 2 moves it uses with technician, the other ones should be something it gets through TMs like thunderbolt for coverage for something.

>>29797078
Swift doesn't really do anything for it. You'd probably be better off with Sash and Nasty Plot.

>>29797114
>>29797126
True
So maybe something more like this?
A-Persian @ Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 def/ 252 SPA/ 252 Spe
Timid
-Snarl
-Hidden power ice
-Nasty plot
-Echoed voice

>>29797159
HP Ground gets you perfect coverage, I'd use that

>>29797159
Switch sash for Life Orb, it needs the extra power

>>29797187
It also needs the sash with those 65/60/65 defenses it has if it wants to live long enough to get a boost up.

>>29796978
Just like gardevoir, right ;^)

>>29797213
It has 115 speed and you're not going to boost up against something that can take it down in one hit. Those defences may seem weak, but their enough to take at least one hit most times.

>>29797185
Actually, looks like Water, Electric, and Fighting do the same, so you can basically take your pick between the four

>>29797185
That's true, plus with the nasty plot it can probably even knock out more viable picks like A-Raichu easily since it not only outspeeds it but can hit it on both weakness spectrums
>>29797187
I would agree, but it needs a turn at the very least to set up, and its defenses aren't even useful enough to shield pickled bones, so life orb is not a good choice
>>29797246
Not when the competition has over 90 offense and way more defense than it

>>29795868
Yo is GameFreak fucking retarded? Viable Raticate could've been a perfect meme

>>29795917
>That typing just doesn't work out defensively.
>9 resistances & 1 immunity

>>29797264
Persian @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Hyper Voice
- Hidden Power Ghost
- Water Pulse

I would like to remind you that this is the current Persian set. LO is fine.

>>29796802
the fact that persian gets parting shot immediately makes it a useful lead in doubles

fake out
snarl
parting shot
feint? charm? taunt? whatever you need

immediate pain in the ass

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>>29795868

>Snowslash
Formidable Sweeper on Hail Teams - RU to UU.

Alolan Sandslash @ Life Orb
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe or 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant / Jolly or Impish Nature
- Icicle Spear / Icicle Crash
- Iron Head
- Leech Life
- EQ / Sword Dance

Basically just swap him in on a resisted hit (thank GOD he has Steel, he has 8 resists at least) and go to town. IS vs. IC is just the usual debate, Iron Head for decent STAB. Leech Life is for recovering off the Life Orb recoil at best, and it gets a few SE's in that you otherwise wouldn't. EQ is just for coverage, while Sword Dance could be used on a bulky set if you've removed the Fire/Fighting moves (kek).

Night Slash, Rock Slide, or Poison Jab COULD be used, but Ice/Steel/Bug already provides most of the coverage you'd get from those.


>Nermal
Usable Special Attacker in PU - only not dying thanks to Fur Coat and actually being able to damage thanks to Nasty Plot and Power Gem.

Alolan Persian @ Life Orb
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Power Gem
- T-Bolt / Taunt

There's not much more you can do. Fur Coat lets him actually switch in to a physical move occasionally, but it's still going to hurt like a bitch - It may even be better to give him 252 HP / 252 Def to make sure he can even come in and set up Nasty Plot at all. Elec/Dark/Ground coverage actually isn't terrible, with only Shiftry and Cacturne resisting it out of everyone else in the tier. Taunt is slashed with T-Bolt, and not Power Gem, because Power Gem is more likely to hit Pokemon on their weaker defensive stat than T-Bolt is. Choice Specs and Scarf is a poor option, because the ONLY other attacking move that's even worth considering would be U-Turn, which obviously will do piss poor damage coming from APersian.

>Faticate
The definition of a shitmon. I could make a joke set, but it would be nothing but that - just a fucking joke set.

What program is that Oh-pee?

>>29795868
Where are you guys finding these?

>>29797290

Except that set doesn't work on Alolan Persian.

>Hyper Voice
No STAB from Alolan Persian - Dark Pulse takes it's place.

>HP Ghost
Dark Pulse covers this almost entirely.

>Water Pulse
Alolan Persian doesn't get Water Pulse.

You're limited to pretty much Dark Pulse (or Shadow Ball, but seriously who the fuck would do that), Power Gem, and T-Bolt when it comes to Alolan Persian's special moveset.

>Technician
Literally no reason to use it when it doesn't have any real moves that can work with it.

>>29797583
>even if you use furcoat it's a shitter furfrou
>HA is one of the worst abilities in the game

bravo gamefreak

>>29797264
LO is fine anon. Fur Coat basically makes it 65/120 on the Def side - for reference, that's as physically bulky as Weezing or Mega Sableye.

As long as you're coming in on a physical attacker, a Sash would be a complete waste.

>>29795868
Sandslash yes, Persian not really, Raticate holy fuck it's like Gamefreak took a shit and called it a pokemon

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>>29795868
>hope they make raticate better
>make it worse in every way

>>29797775
I know that feel, Anon.
I was hoping after Talonflame, Mega Beedrill and to a lesser extent Vivillion and Diggersby, that early route shitmons were finally getting some respect.

But nope, we get a slow "bulky" Raticate and a Toucan that can't do shit.

>>29795868
furcoat persian seems okay
technician will be OP with bite during a normal playthrough
rattled is just bad
why its special attack is higher than its physical i have no clue
it honestly needs like +20 to attack
and 10 to health

>>29798108
he gets nasty plot anon

Is Hail still a meme weather or it got a buff? I heard vanilluxe got snow warning and A-sandslash has a new abiliity, but is that it?

>>29796754
A-at least it has Power Gem, right?

>>29796754
snarl

>>29798144
It's mostly a meme weather, but it got a few buffs. A muff weather.

>Pokemon
Vanilluxe got Snow Warning
SandSlush got Slush Rush
Beartic got Slush Rush
Cryogonal got +10 HP and +20 Def

Basically they got two sweepers, one of which can take several hits thanks to it's Steel subtype.

>Moves
Aurora Veil puts up both Reflect and Light Screen, but you can only use it during Hail (the screens stay up after Hail is over, and they can still be broken by Brick Break)

This is pretty damn good, the only problem is finding a turn to actually use it.

So yeah, muff weather.

>>29798238
alolan ninetails plus meowstic in doubles maybe?

might be too much of a stretch though

>>29798238
Wow, this is actually huge. Hail is going to be fun to test in VGC!

>>29798238
are they trying to do anything but buffs ice types' defenses?

If they're so dead set on making slow bulky ice types then why not make it resist like flying or ground or something?

>>29797583
It wasn't the moves I was referring to, rather, the fact that life orb can be used despite Alolan Persian's defences - which was what the anon I was replying to stated was issue in running Life Orb.

>>29798293
Not really.

For one, they fucked up by giving Vanilluxe Snow Warning instead of a slower Pokemon - remember, when two Pokemon with weathers come out, the slower one has their weather stay. Vanilluxe is faster than every other weather user save for fucking Ninetails. This means that, in order to bring in Hail reliably, you need Abomasnow (who no one actually wants on their team), who is still faster than Torkoal and Gigalith/Hippowdon. So overall, Hail is going to have the hardest time actually coming in.

Secondly, they have literally two sweepers - one of which is weak to both Mach Punch and Bullet Punch, the other which has a 4x weakness to Mach Punch, while still being weak to Fire and Ground in Sandslash's case. They also only have two Pokemon that can really set up Aurora Veil (Regice and Cryogonal), and none of them outside of Articuno (fucking lol) have U-Turn or Volt Switch

Hail, the weather itself, also still does damage to Water types and Steel types - so you can't reliably use other Pokemon with Magic Guard.

Hail really needed a Filter type of buff, where SE hits did only 0.75x damage to Ice Types while Hail's going on. As is, it's not a good weather to base a team on, and it'll get torn the fuck apart by literally every other weather team in VGC.

>>29798499
Welp, turns out I was a retard and misread your post.

You're completely right in regards to Life Orb > Focus Sash

Can alolan sandslash get swords dance? If so he can be a fantastic sweeper in hail

>>29798590
Yes.

>>29798590
See
>>29797519

Sword Dance isn't a BAD idea, the problem is that even though he's Steel, his Ice Type really makes him want to switch the fuck out of a bunch of moves (ESPECIALLY SPECIAL FIRE MOVES), which then undoes everything that Sword Dance worked for.

Bulky SD A-SandSlash will be a decent cleaner in hail, but not so much a straight sweeper - you'll definitely have to soften the field first.

>>29795868
it's like they spent their time making the pretty alolan forms useful but rushed the shit out of the ugly ones

>>29798139
and no defense to set up
besides furcoat which is trading technician
its just a weird stat line for a meh pokemon

>>29798679
I was thinking maybe just going jolly snowslash with a choice band instead of swordsdance. Thats way he can get in, hit hard and get out

>>29798758
He's as physically bulky as Weezing with Furcoat, which is worth trading up Technician since it gets pretty much nothing from it.

>>29798847
This. Why are you guys so determined on technician when it cannot use it to its full potential? Fur coat is clearly the better ability.
>>29797018
I thought this anon came up with quite a unique and clever set. Taunt and Amnesia in combination with lefties lets it set up on walls and special attackers (who would otherwise bypass fur coat), allowing it to potentially get multiple boosts simply from tanking hits

What website is the OP image/all the Pokemon stats coming from? Apologies for my retardation.

>>29797279
Mono-steel is better though

>>29798788
Without U-Turn it's a little iffy, but definitely doable.

Considering it gets Slush Rush though, I'd forgo Jolly entirely. Either give it Adamant/Choice Band for HUGE hits and just invest into Defense and HP, or give it Choice Scarf and 60 EV's so that it hits and hit 540 Speed to beat out every Base Speed 115 +Nature Choice Scarf Pokemon, along with +Nature Deoxys-S.

>>29798940
Obviously? Mono-Steel is a fantastic defensive typing. That doesn't make Ice/Steel a BAD type, just not as good as one of the best.

>>29798925
Bumping because I want to know also.

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>>29797051
This gen is the worst offender yet in terms of blindly, blatantly bumbling an entire set of Pokémons' layouts.

TONS of cool and unique abilities, excellent designs, some game-changing new moves....and nothing matches up right to put any of it to use. Memeing completely aside, it really does seem like the only logical explanation is they just have no idea what the fuck they're doing whatsoever.

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>>29799049
Say whatever you want, you're just salty that your best boy didn't get the Toxapex or Mimikyu treatment.

>>29798925
>>29799016
Here's the infodump I found:

https://daily.pokecommunity.com/2016/11/08/pokemon-sun-and-moon-is-leaked-datamined/

>>29799049
Bunch of lazy, incompetent, retarded, arrogant fucking japs. I'm done with buying their shit, literally. I'm still here with my popcorn just watching all the leak shit blow up.

>>29799065
That two or three Pokemon actually got lucky doesn't invalidate anything he said. Leave the strawman at the door.

>>29799049
Haha it's balance you wouldn't understand it it's so that the mobile kids can have fun - Masuda

>>29799065
Oh, is Mimikyu not shit?

>>29799614
Someone please confirm this, I'm begging you

>>29799614
Pretty decent stats and wide movepool. Little fucker even gets Sword Dance.

>>29799614
55/90/80/50/105/96
and a once-per-battle auto-evade, so there's promise.

>>29799614
It's just better than expected. Like how we thought Komala was going to be complete shit but it managed to avoid being another Spinda.

>>29799641
>>29799661

He even gets pain split with those stats too

>>29796604
This. >>29796612

There is a such thing as throwing all your eggs into one basket, having a backup sweeper in case your primary one has a accident is common sense.

>>29799641
Should I get it over Doublade? in game