Apologize.

>pichu used thundershock

>PACHIRISU used Charge!
>It's Super Effective!

>>29767090
You know damn well that does fuckall to Mantine with its absurd SpD

>>29767166
Yeah I'm just memeing. It's much better now but I'm not sure how useful it will be despite its bulk with such mediocre speed. Skarm's advantage was the various amounts of resists it had, which Water/Flying doesn't quite have on the special spectrum

>>29766978
I always believed in you, Mantine!

>>29766978
>counterpart pokemon
>skarmory didn't get +20 hp
what the fuck now
they'd be still both decent with said equal buff
especially skarmory that needed more hp since this retarded gen nerfed unaware and gave a greenlight to hyperoffensive again

>>29767410
What happened to unaware?

>>29768024
It now only takes effect when the User attacks.

You can imagine the ramifications this will have.

>>29766978
>mantine and dodrio are two favorites that both get incredible buffs
>most of the gen 7 pokemon i liked suck

i just don't know how to feel. it's such a weird mix.

>Arcanine used Wild Charge!

>>29767166
I seem to remember even without the buff to it's HP Mantine could survive a hilarious amount of random HP Elec and non-STAB Tbolts with HP to spare.

>>29767232
Anon...it has Swift Swim for an ability.

Hell in Gen 5 it actually had a niche as a anti-Rain and Latios mon because it was fast enough, could sponge hits and did a decent amount of damage.

>>29767166
>dedenne used nuzzle

What now nerd?

I believed in you all along, Mantine.

>>29768242
>Using Swift Swim
>Not using Water Absorb
>When half the metagame is who can use Scald the best

>>29768109
Wow that ruins it defensively, sorry quagsire.....

What did Mantine get?

>>29768709
Roost and +20 hp.

>>29768767
>non bird getting roost
what

>>29766978
What were the buffs?

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>>29766978

I remember having a Mantine when I did a Crystal run about 6 years back I nicknamed Irwinslaya. Good times.

>>29768806
Tons of bugs get roost too.
Top Kek also gets it.

>>29768767
Goddamn.

What are the confirmed stat changes for old mons? Did Mega Alakazam get bumped up to +100?

>>29768806
>What is Dunsparce?

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>Skarmory didn't get +20 HP buff despite the promotion of HO mons and Unaware nerf and Z-Moves
>in a game when even walls are getting slowly nerfed through power creeps

WHAT
THE
FUCK

>>29768919
Does not need a buff.

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>>29768853
Basically, the only ones that matter are...

>Dugtrio
100 Atk and Arena Trap YES PLEASE.

>Dodrio
110 Speed + He also got Jump Kick, so he's breaking the fuck out of PU and moving up to at least RU, and possibly UU.

>Corsola
+10/10/10 + She got Liquidation, so she will actually be useable useable in PU.

>Mantine
+20 HP + Getting Roost means he's cruising on up to UU right away. Probably the second biggest buff here, right after Dugtrio.

>Swellow
+25 Sp. Atk means Boomburst and Heat Wave (along with Air Slash) are going to fucking hurt in PU.

>Beartic
+20 Atk and Slush Rush is going to let him rain fucking pain on everything in whatever tier he ends up in.

As for the abilities

>Gengar
Losing Levitate fucking hurts - he may end up in BL for the first time in his life. He lost an immunity to switch in on, no one has to carry a coverage move to hit Gengar for SE anymore, he's affect by Spikes and Sticky Web, etc. It hurts.

>Legendary Gerbils
Every one of them misses their abilities. Raikou may actually go down a tier, but it's not as big a deal for Suicune or Entei.

>Pelipper
Meet Rain Team's Lead #2. Also this fucker is going to be great in doubles - better than Politoed.

>Toarkoal
Meet Sun Team's RU Lead. Literally the only reason to use him, Ninetails and Charizard Y are so much better it's funny.

>Gigalith
Same as Toarkoal but for Sand in RU instead.

>Vanilluxe
Same as Gigalith but for Ice in RU instead.

>>29768109
>Unaware now only helps on offense

What the fuck. Why'd they even do that, its not like Unaware pokemon tore up VGC or any Battle Spot metagame

>>29769066
Yes, it does, it needs more HP.
Braindead CB users and more common boosting moves being accessible force it to require more HP.

>>29769114
>Every one of them misses their abilities. Raikou may actually go down a tier, but it's not as big a deal for Suicune or Entei.

They never had their HA released, so it actually doesn't matter

>>29769114
>Legendary Gerbils
Hah.

>>29769172
No, it doesn't need a nerf. It's a steel/flying type with god-tier defenses and a great movepool and synergy with other good mons. It's one of the most used Pokemon overall. Mantine meanwhile is a low tier shitmon that desperately needs something good.

>>29769363
Skarmory need it, I insist, Mantine now is on the same level kinda and can spam Scald more effectively. Skarmory can't hit back really hard still and either risks with Counter or relies on Whirlwind to remove boosting mons that now can 2HKO with more ease after the further offensive buffs we are having.

>>29769432
Mantine isn't on the same level at all - Mantine's resists are severely lacking, while Skarmory's are fucking great.

>>29769432
You are wrong and don't know what you're talking about if you insist that Skarmory needs a buff.
Reevaluate your understanding of the conversation at hand before deciding that your opinion is relevant. It is not. Skarmory has been OU since gen 2 for a reason.

>>29769432
>Mantine now is on the same level kinda

No, no it really isn't. Mantine has and will always have a 4x weakness, something Skarmory does not. That inherently disadvantages it. Couple that with the fact that Skarmory can actually run a powerful flying type STAB in Brave Bird and it can carry a Rocky Helmet that actually does stuff. Now you remember that Skarmory is netural to rocks and Stealth Rock and Mantine is weak to them, taking 25% damage on switch in.

Steel type is strong as fuck. Even if their stat distributions are identical and their movepool is similar, Skarmory is far and away the better mon competitively thanks to steel type.

>>29769363
why don't you want 2 counterpart mons to be equal and keep the bst continuity?

Mantine was the reason I picked gold when it first came out, i'm so happy it's getting a buff.

>>29769546
Also, here's another important point: Mantine and Skarmory are both a bit slow at 70 speed, but thanks to Mantine's 4x weakness this matters a shitton more. Electric types are usually fast and certain mons, even special attackers, can outspeed and KO it with ease, while it can't do enough in return. While Skarmory's hard counters are much fewer and far between because there's no moves hitting it for 4x.

>>29769573
Because they aren't equal when their stats are the same. Mantine is clearly disadvantaged. They should be balanced and about as powerful as one another, that's clearly what GF wanted when they decided on this small buff.

>>29769573
Mantine and Skarmory have never been equal.

>>29768840
Tapu koko
Stands for Sacred Cluck
And is based on chicken
So its fine

>>29769573
Why do you? Counterparts have never been in lockstep all the way back to gen 1. Look at Scyther and Pinsir.

>>29769546
>electric coverage is common
you realize mantine is now an effective stall mon and easy to be slapped in defensive cores?

skarmory has the same problems defense wise, weak to hidden power, trappers, more special offensive attacks that hit it super effectively, lost resistance to ghost and dark

an HP buff would make it slightly better now that solid OU mons are slowly dying

>>29769573
skarmory gets to be OU forever while mantine got a shitty fucking baby prevo
equality has never mattered

>>29769646
Electabuzz and magmar
Illumise volbeat
Mawile sableye
All equally shit/good

>>29769624
>>29769637
>>29769646
equal BST wise which is what makes most pairs counterparts

>hurr durr muh competitive scene only bullying this flying squid

They'd be both solid or acceptable instead right now.

>>29769652
Skarmory has 8 resistances (one of which is a 4x resistance), 2 immunities, and only 2 weaknesses.

Mantine has 5 resistances, 1 immunity, and 2 weaknesses (one of which is a 4x weakness).

Mantine needed a buff WAY more than Skarmory.

Fuck, Skarmory doesn't need a buff at all when he can hang around in Ubers just fine.

>>29769682
>Cherrypicking

>>29769682
Pinsir/Scyther(Scizor)
Your point is moot

>>29769709
You haven't explained why it's important to you that they have equal BST. You've expressed distaste for those who feel bringing viability into the issue is relevant, so please define what makes equal BST critical among counterparts.

>>29769652
>what is Mega Manetric
>what is Rotom-W
>what is Thundrus
stop trying to insist Mantine is viable in OU. It's not. Some of the most used Pokemon totally destroy it. Even with this buff it would struggle.

Also you listed some weaknesses for Skarmory, yes, but the point is that it still has a good niche. "Trappers" is a negative, but that's literally just one Pokemon in Magnezone - who, by the way, also fucks Mantine over. "Weak to hidden power" - who runs HP fire besides Magnezone as mentioned? Serperior maybe? Things with no coverage? You'd be better off just mentioning Heatran which can spam Lava Plume and bulk any attacks in return.

Yes, most all Pokemon have checks and counters. But the important thing is that Mantine not only has many counters in high tiers, but there's no reason to use it over more reliable special walls.

And again, let's be clear about resistances here: Skarmory still has 8 resistances, 2 immunities, and just 2 weaknesses. It's also immune to Toxic which is really big for a wall.

Meanwhile, Mantine only has 5 resistances, one immunity, a weakness to rock/Stealth Rock and is vulnerable to Toxic.

Mantine is still worse even after the buff, if anything needs a further buff it's Mantine. Seriously, count how many Mantines are used in OU and how many Skarmories are, hell Skarmory can even be used in Ubers, and you'll see why.

>>29769745
>Skarmory
>Ubers
>past Gen 6 ever
It's been a hard time for Skarmory since Gen 6, seriously.

Also what kind of logic is that?
>if Skarmory gets +20 HP then Mantine that also gets them will be worse than Skarmory
???
They are counterparts but have different roles and are part of different cores.
You aren't supposed to make Mantine OU, just make it better.

>>29769709
You said that Mantine and Skarmory are equal and when their BST is changed they won't be. I'm assuming you meant that they're "equal" as in they're just as useable since that's what this thread is about and caring about BST patterns just for the sake of muh patterns is autistic. If that IS what you meant, you're wrong, Mantine is pretty bad compared to Skarmory for a supposed "counterpart". If that ISN'T what you meant and you're just sperging about BST patterns, then no one cares what you have to say.

>>29769829
Wait wait wait, did that anon SERIOUSLY suggest that Mantine is viable in OU?

If he did, you fell for the bait hard.

>>29769869
You still haven't explained why their BSTs being equal is important to you, anon.

>>29769918
Pretty sure he's just sperging BST patterns.

>>29769919
He said it can be "slapped in defensive cores" and an HP buff makes it more solid against OU mons. And then here >>29769432 he says it's "on the same level kinda". I don't even think it was bait, I think he's just retarded. Skarmory's one of my favorite Pokemon but I'm not delusional, it doesn't need a buff compared to Mantine.

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>>29768820
>6 years
It's been that long already?

>>29769829
who are you quoting?
and why are you projecting on mantine is ou?

>>29769805
Because it what makes them counterparts.
They are Flying type counterparts and have swapped stat spreads.

Then why not buffing Yveltal stats by +20 and give it Shell Smash because Herbal Deer has Geomancy and is Fairy type.

>>29769990
I'm quoting you.

>>29769546
>Mantine now is on the same level kinda

To say Mantine is on the same level as Skarmory is to say it's good enough to be OU.

inb4 "no that wasn't me" backpedaling

>>29769829
>what is mega charizard x
>what is mega charizard y
>what is heatran
>what is talonflame

stop trying to insist ferrothorn and scizor are viable in OU. they are not.

>>29769990
>Because it what makes them counterparts.
I'm pretty sure being exclusive to their respective games makes them counterparts, anon. They aren't the first asymmetrical counterparts and they won't be the last. Sperging out because some numbers stopped being even isn't healthy. It's just going to make you into the kind of person who can't advance in the game unless his whole party has the same level.

>>29769919
>>29769967

No, I did not retard.
Either you don't have a reading compehension or you're sliding the main point.

And yes, now Mantine is as easy as Skarmory to be slapped in defensive cores (on same level), I didn't specify the tiers but I did focus on how easier it can be used now.

>>29770035
Destroyed by Stealth Rocks
Destroyed by Stealth Rocks
A single easily accounted for Pokemon
Destroyed by Stealth Rocks

>>29768811
HP+20
+Roost

>>29770035
>totodile used Water Gun!

>>29769114
>charizard and ninetails better then torkoal

You have to be memeing. torkoal is insane bulk. sunny day only helps negate a weakness and improve it offensivly

>it's another episode where /vp/ is upset some pokemon are worse than others and therefor they need huge power and +100bst not mega to be fixed or else it's not fair


and slowking needs +20 def and +20 spdef and +10 hp amirite?

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>>29770149
Charizard and Ninetales both are fast and can abuse said boost to remove shit, especially Zard-Y which is why it's that great.
Torkoal is a sitting duck instead compared to Zard Y or Ninetales.

>>29769573
Mantyke
FOR THAT FUCKING REASON
Not Counterparts

>>29770209
sitting duck would imply it'll take a lot of damage. Nothing can set up on it besides for steel types, if you lead with it nothing can take it out first turn. charizard gets it's ass eaten by stealh rock and ninetails is shit. Torkoal is prime , sunny day only made it better

>>29770149
You realize he's talking about Zard-Y, right? The one with drought?

>>29770325
Yeah obviously since we were talking about sunny day. still doesnt mean it wont get hurt by stealth rock

>>29770321
it is fucking slow and its type isn't solid defensively anon, drought is made for offense regardless, even if it cannot hit hard and fast it cannot recover either, ninetales instead has NP and faster will o wisp, disable and much more, charizard is a glass cannon by itself

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>>29769114
>all my shitmon bro's getting buffed
>most of them will probably land nu or higher now
pu is all i know, but im glad anyways

>>29770306
>crossgen baby mon meme
>mattering

>>29770449
Ferrothorn in OU says hello in regards to speed. Ninetails doesnt have handy moves like clear smog and stealth rock. And like you said charizard is a glass cannon. with sunny day torkoal pretty much has two and a half weakness, rock, ground and water (reduced by sunny day) Most rock and ground are physical so will o wisp saves the day. and if you throw a sitrus berry on the puppy it can eat earthquakes like nobody's buisness

>>29770488
>Crossgen HP buff meme
>Mattering

>>29770555
trips of truth

>>29769114
swellow has hurricane now

>>29770555
Ferrothorn is not Torkoal dude, not even close. Ferrothorn has a really great defensive type and some recovery in Giga Drain and Leech Seed. Torkoal meanwhile has no recovery and is pure Fire type, one of the worst single types defensively, being weak to extremely common coverage like Ground, Rock, and Water. Plus Ferro gets a free rocky helmet. So don't try and compare the two.

Also, Torkoal is not "eating earthquakes", not even close.

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 276-328 (80.4 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 174-211 (50.7 - 61.5%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 300-354 (87.4 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

176+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 28 SpD Torkoal: 560-660 (163.2 - 192.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Flygon Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 28 SpD Torkoal: 354-421 (103.2 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Remember, with no recovery, it can't take those 2hko's either and just shrug. They seriously hurt. It's not a very great tank, having Drought helps it but don't expect it to come anywhere close to Ninetales or zard-y.

>>29770555

what a fucking waste of trips

>>29770925
>252 SpA Life Orb Flygon Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 28 SpD Torkoal: 354-421 (103.2 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

um...

anon

Flygon got Dragon Dance.

The fuck you using Earth Power for?

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Flygon Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Torkoal: 307-361 (89.5 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

>>29771231
Setting up isn't always the best option. It's a good defogger in RU with special coverage. It has better special coverage than physical, that's the point. I'm sure DD is good too but I was just making a point, it doesn't even need to run an offensive set to blow out Torkoal.