Eusine and Zinnia

I wish Eusine had been "shoehorned into the main plot" then maybe he would have been memorable

Eusine is one of my favorite characters in the entire franchise.

>>29598854
For the wrong reasons. People already hate making the legendary catch in HGSS mandatory

But Eusine isn't cheap waifu material, anon!

>>29598854
fpbp

>>29598854
unmemorable is better than actively annoying

>>29598854
He was plot-important in Crystal, I think

B-BUT MUH WAIIIFUUUU
Virgins past the age of 18 need to be gassed

Unrelated, but is Deoxys supposed to be catchable on the first try? It just seemed a little too easy for me to be able to catch it like that.

>>29599080
This, I wouldnt want a good character ruined for the sake of more relevance.

niche quality>broad hate

>>29598759
I don't care what anyone says

Seeing Zinnia getting BTFO by Rayquaza at the top of Sky Pillar was hilarious

>>29598759
Please, Eusine was a flamboyant annoying faggot.
Sure he's not Zinnia bad, but he was bad anyway.

>>29598759
Of course Eusine is better than Zinnia. Literally every single character in Pokemon is better character than Zinnia.

>>29599112
Nope.

>>29599190
He has a catchrate of 3, which is the lowest catchrate possible. You were lucky, or unlucky if seen from another point of view.

>It's a "this character is bad because they didn't praise and coddle the protagonist at every opportunity" episode

>>29598759
1. When the text reads "SAAAAAAVE THE WORLD!!" in a mocking tone, it weakens the argument since it's a valid idea being treated as invalid via author's bias.

2. There was no main plot in HGSS aside from going on the gym challenge. Or if you would treat Team Rocket/interaction with the evil team as being the main plot, then Zinnia's relevance was tied to the main plot no matter what since the ORAS main plot actively involved the weather trio.

>>29599270
Zinnia praised the fuck out of the MC too, idiot

>>29599270
Are you retarded? The MC is literally the only person Zinnia coddled.

>>29599162
>>29599027
This, honestly

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>>29599112
>Plot-important
If you mean he just happens upon you in his own search for Suicune being plot-important to the game, you have the wrong idea for what qualifies as "plot-important."

>>29599279
>there was no reason to tie Zinna to the evil team's actions at all. Rayquaza wasnt a part of the main plot

>>29599253
>>29599379
bear in mind the last time I played a gen 2 game was when I was 10.

also, didn't Eusine help summon Ho-oh
in Crystal?

>>29599379
>>29599418
I think the search ended in Bell Tower in Crystal, but in HGSS it extended into Kanto and was separate from the Box Legendary plot.

This was probably because the Bell Tower needed to be available in case you chose HeartGold instead of SoulSIilver

>>29599408
What are you implying? I can't tell if you're just greentexting for no reason.

>>29599270
>He thinks this is the problem people have
It's not about how much a character strokes your ego. They both do it, like nearly all Pokemon characters. But at least Eusine felt like a normal person when he said it. Not like "OwO what's dis? You're the ultimate chozen 1"

>>29599501
I think I instinctively greentexted that when I didnt need to. Never mind the color

>>29599190
>First playthrough of ORAS Deoxys takes 5000 ultra balls
>Second playthrough he's caught in 1 quick ball
K

>op never learned the difference between its and it's in third grade
opinion instantly discarded. no right to talk about anything.

>>29598759
You basically described two different characters, you realize that, right?

>>29599581
>retard never learned that a sentence needs a subject and a verb in third grade
Your opinion has been instantly discarded. You have no right to talk about anything.

>>29599622
isnt that obvious?

>>29599622
Yes. But he described how one was done better

>>29599537
Then if you don't consider Rayquaza a part of the main plot, Zinnia by extension is not part of the main plot and there is still no problem. Her goal was always to get in touch with Rayquaza which is why she infiltrated the evil team since they were the most connected to the weather trio.

>>29598759
Just imagine if Eusine and Zinnia had swapped designs or genders. Than there would be no fighting waifu fags trying to defend Zinnia

>>29599718
She is secretly one of the evil team grunts, and becomes the person who inspired the events of the main plot in the first place

>>29599080
Not really if a character is unmemorable then what's the point?

>>29598759
Zinnia > Eusine
At least she didn't go around with a name that literally sounded like a pokemon.

>>29599842
Would you rather a character you like be made worse just to be more popular? I legitimately dont get this

>>29599878
how is that relevant

>>29599794
>She is secretly one of the evil team grunts
I acknowledged that.

>and becomes the person who inspired the events of the main plot in the first place
Since these games a remake, they were going to provoke the weather trio regardless. If anything, her plans which were revealed in the post-game so didn't actually re-write the main plot, filled in the gaps for why they'd want to wield the weather trio rather than build/steal technology to do so anyway.

>>29599842
Then the character served their purpose and you can move on easily enough. An annoying character can ruin the experience.

>>29598759
don't forget he's got a better theme than her, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nQiEDlEfXc

>>29600075
But the point was that she is put into the main plot. If you acknowledged why she was, what is the argument?

>>29600209
Hell no. Zinnia's theme is great. Really the only thing about the character I enjoy.

>>29600209
almost sounds like something from an ace attorney investigations game

>>29599633
typical desu. the moment someone points out that someone has failed in grammar at the most fundamental of fundamental levels, someone complains about the normal native usage of the person pointing that out in order to defend them

you should legitimately kill yourself if you don't know the difference between its and it's. or you should just take the 5 seconds it requires to learn. pick one, and don't defend people who can't do it unless they have legitimate brain problems

>>29600303
Because the pic in the OP claimed she was shoehorned.

>>29600560
But she was given importance in the main plot in a way that was entirely unnecessary

>>29600434
defaulting to complaining about grammar is the definition of not having an argument

>>29600209
This founds fucking great. Can someone post Zinnia's theme for reference? I always hear people sing it's praises

>>29600779
If it's a matter of necessity we could cut out so much in these games. GF considered Battle Frontier unnecessary, for example.

You could consider Aarune unnecessary since we didn't need him in the original games.

>>29598759
Good job! You accurately compared an ally to the player character to an anti hero. Great point noting that Eusine encourages you and aides you in finding Suicune while Zinnia, the villainous character who stole your friend's keystone, is mean and rude!!! XP pwned!!!1!!1!

Compare Bianca and Lysandre next!!!

>>29601058
>If it's a matter of necessity we could cut out so much in these games.
Yeah, but see, that's not what you two were talking about. As I read it, this is about Zinnia being jammed into the roll of mastermind behind the plot. ADDING, not cutting.
=V

>>29601090
>Zinnia, the villainous character
>mfw when the character is so poorly written that some people actually think that this is how she was supposed to be interpreted as

>>29601358
Rayquaza is the superior to Groudon and Kyogre, so it's not a stretch to say she went the route of getting them to fight to spur it into showing itself.

>>29599112
No. He was just as forgettable there too

>>29601419
Yes?
That's exactly why she manipulated Magma/Aqua. To bring down Fug since he'd have to put the babies back in their place. You are agreeing that she was pulling the strings.

>>29599729
There really wouldnt be.

>>29601090
You think she was meant to be villainous?
Anon, she was meant to be the enlightened one who knew more than the foolish, naive scientists.

It would be better to compare Cyrus and Lysandre.

>>29601408
No. She's an anti hero. She's the equivalent to Archie and Maxie. She tried to summon her favorite legendary by stealing shit from others. She has good intentions but bad actions. She was corrupt to a level where she became underhanded. Rayquaza proves it. Her grandma proves it. If you actually paid attention to her rather than /vp/'s head canons about her, you'd see you're wrong.

>>29601589
Right and I said it's not unnecessary since it actually flows.

>>29601662
>She tried to summon her favorite legendary by stealing shit from others.
You're not really wrong, but why do people make it out to be that she was trying to summon Ray for shits and giggles? I thought it was specifically to destroy the life-ending meteor.

And anti-hero or no I think she was just mentally defunct. If she could just summon Ray with keystones why wouldn't she just go with that plan first instead of the whole "let's make ubermons fight and endanger the world?" She could even have asked for the keystones first. I could understand if they didn't believe her and refused so she had to steal them afterwards, but to not even try?

>>29601662
>you can only disagree with me if you werent paying attention

She was in no way being positioned in the same way as Archie or Maxie, as they were never position as even possibly in the right. People didnt just shrug after getting robbed by Aqua and Magma. Hel, Archie and Maxie were made more sympathetic than her, showing regret in the climax, and afterwards as well

It's not about what she is supposed to be, but how well they made that come across.

Not to mention she was written by someone who literally did this already. This isnt just /vp/ disliking her either

>>29601898
But if it works without her than it's literally by definition unnecessary.

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I thought Zinnia wasn't great, but I stopped caring and just saw it and enjoyed it for what it was. I agree with pic related in the end.

>>29601898
making sense=/=being necessary

>>29602065
the climax of the episode was indeed the best part. The only good part, really.

Suicine was a side plot legendary so he got a side plot character.

Rayquaza is, what? The big daddy of the two big daddy legendaries of the game? Of course the plot is going to warp arond him and whatever trainer is obsessed with him.

>>29602001
>>29602107
Again, you can make an argument against a vast majority of the game being necessary since what you appreciate is subjective. To Game Freak, who is the deciding factor, she was necessary, hence she was in the games to fulfill the various roles she does.

The game could've done without Aarune with Secret Contests, Lisia with Contests, modifying all the evil team admins, soaring in the sky, Dexnav, primal evolution, etc.

>>29601918
I mean, I'm not denying she's a bit retarded. I agree with you there, it's just to me she came off more like a villain than an ally like Eusine.

I saw her as this character who was initially supposed to be the bad ass mystery trainer you need to hate, but later learn to sympathize with once you learn her history. Similar to Archie, Maxie, Silver, etc. Just the difference is her development happened to the span of 5 minutes, rather than the entire game like the others, so I guess I see why some people aren't seeing this the same way as me.

>>29599162
Anon, if you're suicidal you can just tell us.

>>29602200
Yes, but you're arguing is that we need to take all the additions or none of them. Some things can be unnecessary but add to the game for people, while others can be unnecessary and take away from it for them

>>29602200
>To Game Freak, who is the deciding factor, she was necessary, hence she was in the games to fulfill the various roles she does.
But nobody was talking about what John Gamefreak ended up going with. What's being discussed is whether or not what they went with was necessary after the fact.

>The game could've done without Aarune with Secret Contests, Lisia with Contests, modifying all the evil team admins, soaring in the sky, Dexnav, primal evolution, etc.
These non-plot relevant items would be considered technically unnecessary like Zinnia, yes.

Eusine isn't female and doesn't interrupt the story too much so that instantly makes him better.

>>29602350
And from there you can see it's subjective about what you decide to accept, so unnecessary isn't a real criticism.

>>29602378
Necessary after the fact doesn't matter for the above reason.

If you consider those technically unnecessary, that brings me to my next point of saying Eusine is technically unnecessary too.

Colress>Eusine

>>29602170
suicune was the box legendary of crystal, yet Eusine didn't feel overbearing in its story

My grip with Eusine is that there someone else willing to put effort into capturing a legendary and fuck before I do.

Zinnia is just autistic for living in the cave too long.

>>29602612
>Eusine is technically unnecessary too.
Yes. I'm not sure what led you to believe I would disagree with this.

>>29602636
obviously

>>29602612
How can it not be considered a real critisism because it is subjective?

You're trying to boil this down to an argument so abstract that it doesnt resemble the real argument anymore. The whole point was that she was inserted in the plot in a way Eusine was not, and that the way it was not being good. All you really had to do was disagree that it was a bad way of inserting her.

>>29598759
>>29598975
>>29599080
>>29599206
>>29599408
>>29599729
These people get it!

>>29599581
>OH SHIT A GRAMMAR ERROR THAT WAS PROBABLY A TYPO! OP BTFO!!!1!

>>29599065
dfyfr hjh jm

>>29598759
U forgot
>Potentially caused the destruction of own world

>>29600434
>someone complains about the normal native usage of the person pointing that out in order to defend them
>using technically improper grammar is okay because it's """"native"""" usage, but a very common typo that even most native English speakers have made? clearly proof of brain problems

>>29602875
The main point of the discussion being had where we can overlook Eusine as acceptable and Zinnia as not.

>>29603075
Because you said it yourself by relying on the word "good". OP is trying to base his subjective opinion that Eusine is better on a picture that attempts to present itself as objective by citing elements of the characters yet it clearly displays a bias against Zinnia. You may not like Zinnia as an addition to ORAS, but there's no objective basis for it, is what I'm getting at.

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I didn't even know Eusine existed.

>>29603271
The picture is not trying to be objective, it's just presenting arguments on why I preferred the execution of Eusine. I dont know if /vp/ is spoiled into thinking everyone counts thier opinion as fact.

You're free to think she's a fine addition to the games, even if I disagree with you as I dislike her in pretty much every way. I dont need to include a disclamer of (in my opinion) after every use of the word good for it to be clear this is my opinion. (I am OP)

Also, the main point of discussion was that Zinnia was placed in the main plot in a way Eusine wasnt. This has gone so far off the discussion is another thing entirely, apparently.

>>29603297
Did you not play Crystal or HGSS? If so I feel sorry for you not experiencing his great theme.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1WgYVFgvN8

>>29603271
But that's not what we were discussing. We're just discussing the necessity of Zinnia.

We have Emerald as a basis for what it was like for Fug to appear without Zinnia existing. They could've done the same thing, but you only get possession of Groudon or Kyogre depending on game (because sales).

>>29598759
>all this hate for Zinnia
>People will love her again after the "Z Episode" in S/M

why bother

>>29603457
Alright, that's fine, my quarrel is over.

>>29598759
Sun+Moon postgame will resolve unanswered questions around Zinnia and make her more likable.

>>29603637
>love her again
>again

People never loved her in the first place. The only way opinion on her would improve would be if she underwent significant character development between XY and SM. Hopefully she doesn't appear at all, like how Generations completely cut her out of the episode dealing with Rayquaza.

>>29603679
*between ORAS and SM

>>29598759
Eusine looks stupid tho

>>29603679
there was some love for her when ORAS released, and then /vp/ just became an anti-Zinnia circlejerk after they realized she was a literal mary sue character.

I'm not saying i liked her, but don't say no one on /vp/ ever liked her. and i don;t think gamefreak would add a new plot-heavy character just for the remake games, she will probably be the new postgame character since Looker is forgettable by most people.

>>29603647
horse shit

>>29603753
She isnt coming back, she is utterly despised in Japan apparently.

>>29603804
I've seen this mentioned a lot, any particular reason she's so disliked in Japan?

>>29603800
She mellows out and becomes a bare footed beach bum who gives your trainer daily masages while apologizing to the person playing the game for beking so awful.

Trust me, my dad is the blacksmith at Gamefreak.

>>29603647
That would ruin the post-game. Don't jinx us, anon.

>>29603804
>>29603854
>Zinnia and Aster are types of flowers
>Delta episode took place around outer space
>Z Moves
>Zygarde Forms in S/M
She's here to stay, and will probably be in D/P remakes as well. accept it.

>>29603639
Yeah my dude/dudette, I hate the whole """objectively""" thing /vp/ does as well. Though you probably should have known that it wasnt trying to be objective due to the thread having a discussion rather than a shitposty argument

>>29603738
Objectively wrong

>>29603637
>>29603647
Let's not shit up SM with another Zinnia story.

>>29603753
Hell, a few people still like her. Though I do think they would add a new plot heavy character just for ORAS. There is a tonne of plot in the Ruins of Alph Arceus event but it stayed in HGSS

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>>29603847

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>>29602636
>HOWEVER
>I agree

>>29603804
>>29603854
>>29603919
Zinnia denialfags about to get BTFO

>>29603304

>>29598759
>Battles you at the last second, to see how good you are, though Rayquaza has already chosen you instead of her, with Rayquaza on your team
But that's wrong. She battles you first at the beginning of the Delta Episode, in Granite Cave.

>>29603919
Isnt the flower naming convention something they've done for years?

>>29604250
its mostly notable in XY>ORAS>SM

>>29604239
I literally completely forgot that. Thanks

In my opinion, Eusine is way more annoying and useless than Zinnia because he keeps interrupting you with his fucking Suicune while you're just minding your own business.
Zinnia is actually relevant to the plot.

>>29604436
He interrupts you briefly a few times. That's no where near as bad as Zinnia, who is like cancer in the Delta episode. Her being forced into the plot is exactly what ruins it.

>>29598759
You're basically trying to make up for Eusine's character, or rather his lack of character, to make him look like he was of any importance in Crystal or HGSS

>>29598854
He will always be that Suicunefag for me.

>>29605350
He didn't have to be important though. Not every plot needs to be the most important thing in the region

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>>29599408
And this is why they should have made Emerald. What were they thinking?