daily reminder that smogon is a joke

>>29331904
What is this image trying to convey?

>>29331904
Here's your (You). I would say "nice bait", but I'm not even sure what you're trying to say.

>>29331904
Oh so you're actually going to post it every day like an obsessed autist then. Wonderful.

>>29332006
We'll never know.

Bans are bad?
Borderline as a concept is bad?
Ubers should be a tier proper?

>>29332044
Uber is a proper tier after AG happened.

what did he mean by this

>>29332068
But OU's pokemon aren't based on its usage ?_?

It's not a normal tier.

poor sceptile is all alone

>>29331904
>donut is suspected to be as strong as the god-empereror of pokemon
lol smogonfags crack me up

>>29332081
It's both a banlist and a tier. Pokemon leave OU for Ubers based on brokenness, but if there are enough Pokemon restricted to Ubers then it could eventually be split into two or more usage-based tiers.
>>29332171
Nothing in Ubers is supposed to be as strong as anything else in Ubers. As a tier, Ubers has the widest power gaps of any other in the 6v6 singles format.

>>29332081
I believe it's based on that AND times tha a team with those pokemons win games.

When it was only based on usage someone started to use lower tier pokes and forfeit constantly, to the point they started to appear in the OU usage list thingy.

>>29332206
This sounds exactly like what a smogonfag would say

>>29332044
What is the point of Borderline? Is it mostly just purgatory for pokemon too good for tier right below it but too weak for the tier above it?

>>29332081
It was, but now they ban stuff based on what their favorite pokemons can or can't beat.

>>29332407

Pokemon who's usage makes them in a certain tier but they're competitively too good for it

>>29332407
If a Pokemon is banned from a tier, but it cannot achieve the usage required to be qualified as the tier above it, it is classified as Borderline.

>>29332407
Yes. It is literally pokemon that have been statistically proven to be garbage in the tier above, so they drop down, only to get banned from the tier below.

Every pokemon in OPs pic is unusable in any standard smogon singles format.

>>29332432
>>29332447
>>29332452
Thanks for the responses, sounds reasonable for the entire scope of how Smogon tiers work.

>>29332452

That's not true. borderline pokemon are used successfully. For example Crawdaunt has topped OU ladder many times

>>29331904
What I don't understand about anti smogon fags is why they think the tiers limit the meta. As if there's this magical place where all mons are viable. There will always be a meta game in competitive. Some mons will always be good and some will always be shit. Smogon just trys to organize them so that if you want to use your shitty bromon you can play against other similarly shitty teams and actually have a chance.

>>29332452

>Every pokemon in OPs pic is unusable in any standard smogon singles format.
>Mega Altaria, Mega Gyarados, Alakazam, Terrakion, Diggersby and Togekiss are unusable

Wew lad.

>>29332483
I agree for the most part, but whoever's on the council thingie for UU and RU needs to be shot. 15-20 mons banned from each tier? Bans are a fucking last resort. Every tier is shaped by 15-20 meta defining mons in the first place, so what they've done there is literally change the tier to something else entirely

>>29332452
Ubers is it's own tier, and most of those mons are perfectly usable in the tiers above. These aren't viability rankings, they're just usage, you retard.

guys do /join showderp xDXDXDXD

>>29332584
Issue with both of those tiers is they don't retest things properly.
UU has a ban first then test it on its own policy which means nothing gets brought down.
RU just doesn't retest things period. Collecting bans constantly as UU drops come in.
If they cleared out all their bans they might find several of the bans balance eachother.

>>29332452
They're not necassarily unusable, they just lack enough usage to go to the tier above. Typhlosion is fucking terrible in RU but people use it enough for him not to drop to BL3

>>29331904
Holy shit, that BL2. It wasn't that large last time I checked? And what's with all those offensive threats banned in BL2 but they let Alomomola stay? At this point they should just make BL2 its own tier. I remember when BL was, like 17 or 18 guys earlier this gen too. These guys ban too much stuff.

>>29332677
>typhlosion
>bl3

typhlosion would suck in nu too lol

should be bl4

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>>29331904
>Staraptor has been BL for almost ten years

>>29332761
Smogon will do nothing that would ever hurt MUH BULKY WATER TYPES

>>29332790
if it was flying/fighting like it obviously should've been this wouldn't be an issue

double-edge is so redundant 99% of the time

>>29332773
It was banned about a year ago and the votes for a ban were like 56%, so if it drops to BL3 they will very likely re-test it. The only reason it was banned in the first place was Eruption but now NU can probably handle it much better

Haven't played since early XY

Greninja got banned because of Protean and gaining access to Gunk Shot in ORAS meaning it could essentially get a free kill on any given Mon with no real checks, while Mega-Mawile got banned because if your opponent didn't have a bulky EQ user/fire user you just died 90% of the time

Am I correct?

>>29333870
Greninja still had checks and counters, you just had to sack something to see whatever the fuck it was running so you could send in the proper answer to it.

That's pretty much the reason Mawile was banned, too.

I don't have an inherent problem with banning, I just wish it were a slower process. They always kill something without really investigating its effects on meta and countermeta. They always say "nothing can counter this we're banning it" when it's only been a week since discovery.

In general I'd like to see a format be more seasonal. Rather than investigating and banning everything individually, I'd like to see the meta looked at as a whole (at all tiers) every 4 months or so. That should be enough time for tech to develop, counters to that tech, etc., And for the cream to rise to the top and be skimmed.

Ubers was really fun in gen V, what's it like now?

>>29331904
Another day, another OP ""critical"" of smogon with no arguments. I swear 90% of them do not fundamentally understand what smogon is or how it works.

>>29334071
This post is an argument. See that, OP? That's how you do it.

>>29334282
All primals and newfangled weather wars. It was good in XY when it was just "Gen-V but now with Xerneas, Yveltal and a couple megas" but Mega Salamence and Primal Groudon (plus Primal Kyogre, but not quite as much) really made it over-centralized. You think OU is stupid because 60% of teams have Landorus-T? Ubers has, like 85% Primal Groudon usage. It's kinda silly, but ubers isn't taken all that seriously anyway.

>>29334071
How do you feel about shitters not being allowed to vote for bans?

>>29334558
Primal Groudon is one of the best pokemon in history desu

It's actually better than mega-ray in a way (AG proves this) and it's literally godlike in every single format that allows it

Got messed up tonight
I lost another fight
Cuz that guy has a Garchomp

Keeps knocking me down
Driving my team into the ground
Hope another one doesn't come next

I won't give up, no I won't give in
Until I make it end so I can win again
I want it to leave, I wanna ban everything
I wanna ban so I will never fail

Oh oh oh oh oh, BAN EVERYTHING!
Oh oh oh oh oh, BAN EVERYTHING!
Oh oh oh oh oh, BAN EVERYTHING!
Oh oh oh oh oh!

>>29334730
Mixed.

On the one hand it prevents bad players from whining and crying and refusing to improve until something is nerfed or banned (look at your average low-tier fighting game player and Mortal Kombat catering to them for a comparison)

On the other hand, Smogon is an innately insular community even though the format is far more widespread even among people with no actual participation in the community. So essentially, you have to be an active and high ranking member of the community to vote, even if you're perfectly good at Smogon format without it. I think that's a large part of /vp/'s hatred of the format. It's a set of rules they're expected to play by that they have no input on. Which when you start getting some very strange bans and format issues, can be damn infuriating.

I think from a balance standpoint, yeah restricting votes based on player skill is wise, but considering the influence of the scene other views from "shitters" should at least be looked at.

>>29334731
Funny how back in Gen V Kyogre was the best Pokémon in the game, while Groudon was just an average uber. How the tables have turned.

>>29334071

I disagree. To me, it felt like they often took too long to ban something.

I mean, they did quickban stupid shit like Swagplay, but the mons themselves were only banned after months of deliberation, 'umming' and 'ahhing.'

"Ooh no, we better not ban drizzle! It's obviously having a severe effect on the meta, but let's not fix the problem, because we think it'd be good to keep Drizzle around in some form."

>>29332081

It's both

>aegislash banned to ubers despite having 3+ solid counters in OU alone

>>29332838
To this day I still have no idea why the analysis lists Final Gambit over Close Combat

>>29331904
Competitive pokemon is a joke really.
Smogon don't know what fun is.

>>29335178
True, honestly I think a seasonal format would fix both issues in the respect.

Also, since I'm on the subject, the "no complex bans" policy is fucking dumb. Banning Blaziken as a whole instead of the Speed Boost variants was unnecessary, for instance.

I also feel like there's a degree of bias, as things that affect certain team compositions or metas get banned quicker (I.e. things that threaten stall or bulky waters, or pretty much anything that threatened Tyranitar-centered teams since Gen 3) than others.

Impartiality is paramount and sometimes it doesn't feel like there is any present in Smogon's higher echelon

>>29335304
>3+ solid counters
Mind listing them for the class so we can all laugh at you?

>>29335178
>>29334071
>>29335414
My issue is how much often they flip-flop between issues and there's no coherent banning criteria. One day they ban something for a reason but another day they don't ban something for the same reason but then ban something else for a new reason. The complex ban fallacy is the biggest culprit of this it's good to ban this combination because it's OP but it's NOT good to ban this other combination because then slippery slope and we don't want that. Make up your damn minds already.

And seriously, make the tiers bigger. That we have so many BLs so full to the brim is absolutely ridiculous.

>>29331904
I normally play little cup and most things that get banned their deserve it

the higher towers are definitely too ban happy though

>>29335360
Compare Smogon formats to Gamefreak formats. Smogon formats are much more diverse. Smogon OU and UU are generally less enjoyable to play IMO due to Smogon's tendency to ban offensive threats over defensive ones (many of them think gen 2 was legitimately the apex of the franchise and see nothing wrong with 1,000 turn long battles if that's what it takes for 'optimal play') but you can't deny that you see more variety in them than you did in VGC's top 10.

>>29335547
Before someone makes the muh singles are different than doubles excuse. Smogon doubles has way more variety than any VGC variant in years.

>>29335596
B-But they banned megas this year so that'll mean VGC will be varied and balanced! Take that Smogonfags! VGC wins again!

>>29335547
>le smogon hates banning defensive mons meme

Most defensive mons are genuinely not that threatening even when the strongest wallbreakers are banned. Although admittely they have been very reluctant to give Mega Sableye a proper suspect test after the Shadow Tag banned. But he's more an exception than the norm, you can't seriously tell me something like Skarmory is broken.

>>29334558
>85%
try 97%

>>29335711
Jesus

How's Kyogre doing over there anyway? The primal form doesn't have leftovers recovery or the luxury of running items and isn't exactly great defensively, I'd think.

>>29335697
It's not that any one individual defensive pokemon is broken, it's that removing all of the top offensive threats from the tier creates an environment where the same kind of incredibly tiresome double switch status spam stall team that people have been running since gen 3/4 is still incredibly prevalent. You just can't run teams like this in a game when things like Greninja, M-Gengar, M-Mawile, M-Blaziken, M-Salamence, ect. are there since you inevitably lose components of that core to the super-wallbreakers and once a stall team loses 1-2 pokemon it tends to fall into a losing spiral if it hasn't crippled the threats those cores covered already.

Early in most gens, when offensive threats tend to not be banned yet, the meta tends to be much more offensive. As these threats slowly vanish the meta reverts back to stall dominance. We saw it most clearly in gen 4 but also in pre HA 5 and of course, 6.

>>29335748
>Kyogre
Forever crying at getting cucked by Groudon after so many years.

>>29335748
Don't really play Ubers but from what i've seen regular Kyogre is the worst pokemon in there atm which is funny because it was an S rank in XY. Primal Kyogre is doing fine tho

>>29335748
Kyogre is significantly weaker but still around. Groudon P, Xerneas and M-Salamence are probably the biggest threats in the tier.

>>29332006
>>29332036
>>29332044
I'm not too sure but I think he means Sceptile shouldn't be in a tier of it's own.

>>29331904
Daily reminder that casuals talking shit about smogon are hilarious. Thanks for the laughs OP.

What happened to that wolfpack guy who did a video shitting on Smogon every day?

Is he still around? That was hilarious, the Youtube Pokemon community is the most autistic thing, they'd go on comment wars that would last for days.

>>29332452
>Every pokemon in OPs pic is unusable in any standard smogon singles format.
Absolutely wrong. Any Pokemon from a tier can be used on its own tier and all tiers above it, since BLs aren't tiers themselves they can only be used on tiers above (although most likely to less effect than something else, which is what caused them to drop down a tier).

>>29335977
He just complains about PKHeX now.

>aegislash
>uber

Literally use mandi or anything with taunt

>>29335977
He basically does videos with click bait titles and accuses anyone with a shiny of hacking like a self righteous prick

>>29332761
>These guys ban too much stuff.
Because too much stuff needs to be banned. Should they lower their standards and let a few things dominate their tiers just to avoid "banning too much stuff"?

>>29335992
He's late to the party then because the 3DS Pokemon games haven't been hack free since the Bank came out, that was when it all went to shit. Injection and CFW just made it more accessible, but it was already ruined by the bank.

I enjoyed the few months of hack-free trading and battling GREATLY, but I knew they were going to end soon, and I'm used to living with hacked shit since the gen 4 games so it's nothing new, got used to it a long time ago. GF should just drop IVs completely, or make the bottle cap shit so insanely accessible that you don't need to spend more than a single hour in ANY Pokemon to get it 5/6. Probably won't happen though, so I'm happy with Showdown.

>>29336050
>mandibuzz
What is toxic? What is head smash?

My only problem with Smogon is that I wish we had more offensive threats in OU to counter stall degeneracy.
I miss Greninja popping in to 360gunkshot a wall or Mega Mawile/Aegislash breaking through stall pokes and forcing the switch out.

Have they ever justified backtracking on their 'le no complex bans' stance with Drizzle + wift swim yet still refusing to allow obviously fine shit like Blaze Blaziken or Torrent Greninja?

>>29336137
We won't have Blissey bases anymore, so grinding to 100 is going to be a chore.

>>29336272
>he misses getting ass rammed by the balanced sword of "we didn't know anyone would use it as a special attacker"

>>29332044
I'm guessing banning being bad.

>>29336272
Getting rid of M-Sableye would help a lot in getting rid of stallfaggotry.

>>29335825
The problem is that the threats you mentioned shit on every playstyle, so they have to be banned regardless. And stall didn't really dominate in the period between Mega Mawile's ban and ORAS release anyway. It was good but honestly worse and harder to run than other playstyles. When Mega Sableye was introduced, stall builds became more cookie cutter and autopilotable, as well as more matchup based, not to mention that his presence allows bullshit meme teams like Wonder Trio to exist and thrive, which would simply be impossible in XY. Mega Sableye is literally the sole reason why stall is dominant in ORAS OU, otherwise it would be the average playstyle that it was in XY.

>>29336050
>Literally restrict yourself to using one shitty pokemon that isn't even a guaranteed counter
>Literally use a move that gives Aegislash a free turn to kill you since most Taunt users are frail, works 50% of the time and allows opponent to switch out his Aegi to sweep you later
Are you retarded? Aegislash was banned because it was too restricting and caused too many 50/50 scenarios

>>29336351
Was KINGS SHIELD ;) really worse than Mega "Oh man I hope you're not that dude running Fire Fang oh whoops there goes my pokemon" Mawile?

>>29336272
yea the 3 you listed were the shark-jumping moments of gen 6. other than those and lando the ubers list is fair enough

bl and bl2 are hilarious tho

>>29336403
>he ends up being the dude running subpunch and he kills you anyway

>>29331904

Honestly, the real joke is playing pokemon conpetitively in general.

>>29336335
I don't play 6v6 on cart though, shouldn't be a problem since 3v3 is scaled up.

GF is retarded though, holy fuck. If you can finish the story and the content in the game at level 50-60 or so, why the fuck do you have up to 100 to go through? Retards.

>>29336440
You need to go to 100 in order to use bottlecaps.

>>29332447
This explains what it means, but it still doesn't make sense on why Pokémon aren't just shifted to the tier above when they're banned from a tier.
It seems like it's a completely arbitrary label since it doesn't make them banned in any different metagames.

>>29336440
Why is Battle Spot and the such only level 50 anyway? I've never understood why they do that instead of auto-leveling to 100.

>>29336457
Uh, fuck.

But do we know getting to 100 will be that hard? There may be a good method now.

>>29336466
>There may be a good method now.
We are talking about Gamefreak. Do you honestly believe they will add a new thing to replace the nice feature that everyone loved but they removed anyway for no reason at all? Keep in mind that this is the same people who honestly believe Z-Moves are on-part with Megas and will make shitmons usable and viable.

>>29336462
It's a gamefreak meme to make battles end quicker.
Things take about 5%~ more relative damage at level 50.

>>29333870
It was also able to OHKO Clefable with Gunk Shot, which is easily the most nightmarish pokemon to get rid of.

>>29333943
Like anon said, it wasn't invincible, but when you already knew what movepool it had you most likely already lost 1 poke.

>>29336436
>he ends up swords dancing instead and killing you anyways

>>29336509
I fucking hate lvl 50. I'm too accustomed to lvl 100 stats and memorizing all that shit again is a pain. I fucking hate how EVs work differently at lvl 50 too.

>>29336538
>When everyone memes about Smogonbird and how it's the mark of a scrub but I keep losing games because I call it wrong and it gets a SD off and rapes half my team before recoiling itself down.

I hate it.
Should I just throw a Heatran onto my team?

>>29336533
That's what I said, thing deserved to be banned because of that.

>>29336565
Pack literally any rock type.

Learn how to identity your win condition and what threatens it most, play based around that.

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I wish sneaky pebbles was banned.

>>29336608
Greninja did not deserve to get fucking banned. Fuck Fairies anyway

>>29336620
Misquote?

>>29336608
Never ever.

Lrn2rapid spin and defog m8.

>>29336608
>sashes don't break ever
>Talonflame never has to worry about anything again
>Dragonite
I hate them too but they do more good than harm.

>>29336565
Slap on a Heatran or Rotom-w. There's a reason they're used, dude.

>>29336681
Spikes are still an option to break sashes, but talonflame and volcarona would still be cancer.

>>29336645
I don't like any of the mons with Rapid Spin nor any of the Defog users in OU.

I'm one of those weirdos that builds a team mostly out of pokemon in the tier that I like, rather than what's 100% most competitive. Sort of a compromise between playing intelligently and karenfagging.

>>29332452
You're a fucking retard.

>>29336735
I feel you man, I'm not a fan of the fact that both users of RS in OU are both quick and frail. I prefer bulky stuff like Forretress over Excadrill and Starmie.

>>29336735
>nor any of the Defog users in OU.
You know you can use Pokemon from outside OU in OU, right?

>I'm one of those weirdos that builds a team mostly out of pokemon in the tier that I like, rather than what's 100% most competitive.
So am I but sometimes you've got to suck it up. Who knows, maybe you'll find a new favorite that way. I used to fucking hate Heatran and now I love the dude.

>>29336533
I don't remember exactly how much, but it could get an OHKO on Clefable with like 24 EVs in attack.

>>29336735
>Not using Defog Crobat or Mega Scizor
Shit taste desu.

>>29336533
>Clefable

Okay let's be fair, I honestly think that a large part of Clefable's issue is Soft-boiled, which hasn't been available for 3 generations. Smogon acts like it's super common. That's a problem of the actual games vs Showdown. Guarantee you Clefable wouldn't be as big a problem in the actual games

>>29336798
I know, but that's just reducing the overall effectiveness of the team more often than not.

>>29336815
>Human teeth and the red menace.

>>29336835
Nothing is stopping anyone from getting their Clefable moveset on FR/LG and transferring it all the way to XY.

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>>29336815
>Tfw when you have a perfectly IVd and EVd trained Crobat BR at a moments notice.
>Tfw you didn't breed it Defog as an egg move because you were stupid
Feels bad man.

>>29336835
Moonlight does just about the same thing now that weather wars are less of a thing.

>>29334418
>Another day, another OP ""critical"" of smogon with no arguments. I swear 90% of them do not fundamentally understand what smogon is or how it works.
this OP has been pretty effective at baiting smogonfags so i don't know if you can really say that

>>29336891
Pentagon though. That's difference.

>>29336900
Moonlight has much less PP though. That's a monumental difference.

>>29336938
>Pentagon though.
That's only relevant for tournaments that make it an issue. Anyone could start a tournament and allow things from any region to be used in it.

>>29336893
trade it back to gen 4 and teach it defog :^)

>>29336460
Smogon's tiers are entirely usage based minus the bans. That's why they're called Overused, Underused, etc. If they're not "used" enough for those tiers, it entirely defeats the principle of doing tiers by usage if you can just arbitrarily shove Pokemon into the tier because they're too broken for the usage tier below it. Which is why BL exists.

>>29336893
Just inject it :^)

>>29336984
Pretty much. It all depends on the ruleset.

I like the pentagon because even with injecting I find it to be a pain to have to look around learnsets from 3 gens ago just in case there's something that could be useful. Pentagon simplifies shit a lot.

>>29337021
But why even need bans if it's based on usage?

I mean, if a Pokemon gets like 90% usage then by their own definition it is overpowered and too disruptive to the meta, so it gets moved to ubers. If a Pokemon doesn't get enough usage, then it means it's not overpowered (since their usage analysis starts from the fact that people are playing solely to win).
Bans seem like they would be very special exceptions, but from what I've seen they have become the rule.

>>29337153
Because it doesn't take any genius to know that Mega Gengar is going to brutally rape anything in OU.

>>29332407
It's not about being weak.

A Pokemon is borderline when by usage it falls into a tier that can't contain its traits and thus warps the usage around it.

Basically it isn't used enough in an upper tier.

It constructs team building on a tier.

Smogon is based on usage and team building, he isn't too weak for the tier above, just too strong for the tier usage placed him originally.

>>29332838
Double edge lets him 2hko Zapdos and Rotom W with a band.

Trust me it isn't redundant if you actually use him as a Bander in OU.

>>29335304
Name them, they all lose to CB, lo pursuit with hp ice and no Kings shield or spdef subtoxic, all those sets are legitimate withing the role of pivot aegislash has.

>>29337153
Because usage is only a tool to move weak Pokemon DOWN to lower tiers where they're viable to compete, not UP to higher ones. OU is the center of the structure, with Ubers being the banlist for it and every tier below it being things that didn't get enough usage for OU.

If you're suggesting bans should entirely be based on usage, and that Ubers become a usage tier, it still doesn't work for the same reasons ban tiers exist.
1. A Pokemon can be very high in usage while still not being broken. As much as /vp/ will tell you otherwise, Landorus-Therian will never be OU banworthy, but its usage is very high.

2. Pokemon can be very low in usage but also be broken. Gen 4 Wobb is a case of this- it was very nearly UU by usage when it got banned. It really was only broken in the context of very high ladder and tour players, but that's really the context which Smogon balances around, so even if Wobb was only broken in the hands of <5% of players, it's still broken.

3. A Pokemon can be terrible in the tier above it while absurdly broken in the tier below it. Most OU bans fit this bill, and would alternate between being dropped and raised every single tier period. Basically, 6 months out of a year a tier would be unplayable because the thing that's broken in the tier dropped since it's unusable in the tier above it.

>>29335318

Because Final Gambit can OHKO Mega Aggron (or come close to it) as opposed to Close Combat.

Final Gambit is a very good move tha if the opponent mispredicts, can lose their counter to your team quite easily. Now you're counter is gone, and you got 5 other Pokemon to deal with.

>>29337669
I guess making it 100% based on usage would make it unstable as fuck yeah.

At the end of the day Smogon is trying to salvage a fucking mess of a game that gets more fucked up the more GF tries to "balance" it, like Mega Evolutions which were supposed to be a balancing tool to boost underperformers and not at all a marketing gimmick aimed at popular Pokemon to get genwunners to buy XY. We know how that turned out.

I wish Pokemon was developed by a dev that cared about balance.

>>29336050
Sub toxic, CB headsmash, the fact that switching something as passive as mandibuzz gives away momentum...

Mandibuzz is a terrible aegislash check, it can't counter pivot aegislash.

>>29337840
I wish Pokemon was developed by a dev who also knew how to program.

>>29336460
Tiers are based on usage, not on power.

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>tfw Blaziken will get banned for another gen instead of getting a complex Baton Pass ban for it

>>29336735
You lose because you cripple yourself.

There is something called team synergy and non type cores, they make your life easier and achieve a wincon easier.

You don't need to run Defog or spin unless you gave Pokémon with quad rock weakness, I have build teams without hazard removal that went up to 1900 without any issue.

The problem is that you cripple yourself by only choosing Pokémon from a tier, and by only choosing appealing ones.

Do you think I like Toxicroak? No I don't, but it shit on HO and balance real hard if you use a slow volt turner and pairs really well with zard X and CB Ttar for an offensive core.

Think of achieving a win con, not on being a Karenfag.

>>29337961
lol at ppl who keep spouting this

tiers are based on usage by ppl who win matches which effectively means they are based on power

just because it is sometimes possible to run bl and uu mons in ou does not mean it is generally viable, strategies that are actually consistent and viable will be picked up by the masses and become ou

most of the stuff in op pic is completely unviable in any singles fomat it's allowed in 99% of the time

>>29338138
(you)

>>29336835
Unless you use Unaware, let's be honest unaware is fucking godlike at stopping a lot of stuff on its tracks as long as you don't have a sand offense weakness and have to use him as a wish pivot.

>>29336938
Pentagon only matters in VGC, it doesn't matter in Smogon.

Also don't underestimate wish and moonlight unaware, they are amazing on some teams.

>>29331904
Daily reminder that competitive Pokemon is a joke and you should play the game properly

>>29338116
There's being a Karenfag and thinking of nothing but "WIN WIN WIN". This mindset is literally the reason so many people don't take competitive seriously.

I love winning as much as the next guy, but the moment you make it all about that you really should find another game to play.

>>29335304

So does Ho-Oh and you don't see Ho-Oh in OU.

Just because a Pokemon has counters doesn't mean a Pokemon isn't overcentralizing to a format.

>>29338248
>This mindset is literally the reason so many people don't take competitive seriously.
Except winning is what competitive is about. Anyone who takes competitive "seriously" will not give a shit about team composition. Casuals who haven't played since gen 1 who thin Sejun used Pachirisu because it was his bro instead of an actual reason won't take competitive seriously no matter what, that kind of people is completely irrelevant.

>>29338138
They're based on statistics of players that have won enough battles. Also utter garbage like Ambipom and Typhosion are still RU. Tangrowth just raised from RU straight to OU, so are you trying to say that it was shit before it got to OU even though all that happened was that more people started using it?

>>29336335

There's the potential for Blissey Islands or something to that extent.

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>>29336457
are you fucking serious

>>29338138
A Pokémon with high usage is splashable or warped the metagame around it.

The key is in defining if it's the harmless first or the restrictive second.

Take a look at Landorus T, at best he plays as a pivot and one time answer to physical offensive threats, he is good at those roles so he gets high usage, but he doesn't restrict other Pokémon from being uses by his presence alone, in fact his role can be usurped by other bulky grounds if the team needs other kind of support. It's splashable but not restrictive.

Now take a look at restrictive... Aegislash... This thing had no competition for its role of wallbreaker and bulky pivot and its presence actually locked 36 Pokémon from being viable in OU, it also creates a 4mss in several Pokémon just by existing. This is restrictive.

Usage doesn't mean power, look at the offensive options usage, even if they all use a core with Landorus T all of them are varied as fuck showing a healthy metagame by usage options.

You are just trying to justify your point by trying to gang up vs the educated opinion, that's not how the world works.

>>29338248
The moment you don't think of a win con and how to achieve it is the moment you give your opponent free elo.

Face it, you aren't playing competitive, you are role playing.

>>29338403
You are autistic.

>>29338459
Ebin argument friendo.

>>29337928
ok its good to dream but lets not get too unrealistic in our dreams

will there be another tier this gen?

we already have 5 (6 if you count ubers)

>>29338459
And you are a role player, you aren't an actual competitive player.

>>29338949
People are apparently pushing FU to be a tier.

>>29338274
>Ho-Oh
I think you mean Lugia

>>29339336

Lugia as well, but OU would be absolute cancer if either was allowed in OU.

>>29338949
>>29339248

They should make one between RU and UU and make that the new RU. Current RU becomes NU, current NU becomes PU, current PU becomes FU.

>>29339248
Forgot to link
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/fu-viability-rankings.3542804/

>>29332617

and of course they don't wanna do that because of fears of "broken checking broken"

or something silly like that.

>>29338370
You mean like how Stealth Rock restricts dozens of Pokemon from play but it's still allowed?

>>29339586
Almost certain we had a No Rocks OU in gen 5 at some point

>>29336324

they keep claiming slippery slope but seem to fail to realize that you can just restrict how complex you can get,

asking for a ban of speed boost blaziken while allowing blaze blaziken doesn't mean it gives grounds for allowing mewtwo in if it doesn't have it's strongest stab and coverage moves as well.

>>29339586
SR keeps incredibly powerful pokemon in check

and it's not even that bad nowadays what with defog. it was at its most cancerous in gen 4 where basically all matches started 5v5 because le suicide pointy rocks lead meta. honestly don't know why that shit was allowed

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>>29339658
They could get away with it if it were just restricted to Pokemon between OU and Ubers, that was Sand Force Landorus could come back too

>>29339658
There is no point in doing this because Blaziken and Grenigger without their hidden abilities are shitmons that no serious competitive player would use.

>>29339842
This makes me wonder if they'll treat Greninja with Protean and Battle Bond as two different entities.

>>29339842
>hurr durr only ou matters

fuck off retard, blaziken would have a chance to actually be usable in ru

and ninja would still be legit in ou anyway

>>29339842

so what if they become shit mons then they will fall into a tier were they belong and that should be the end of that what is so wrong about that.

>>29339892
Extremely likely, the costume Pikachus are also treated as different entities

>>29339693
Even so, it never got even considered for banning despite being as centralizing as the other shit people complained about. That's my point. Gen 6 is probably the first time it's been balanced.

>>29339894
>>29339931
>blaziken would have a chance to actually be usable in ru

What would RU actually gain from having Blaziken? Or is just your autism that doesn't make you want to use Blaziken in a tier with legendaries? Furthermore, if Blaziken doesn't belong to Ubers according to you, because it is carried solely by its ability, does this mean that Talonflame or Azumarill or pretty much half of OU don't belong there too?

>>29340197
lmao

>calls other people autistic
>thinks a pokemon has to 'offer' something to a tier to be allowed in

you fucking retard

obviously speed boost blaziken would remain uber so 'not using it in a tier with legendaries' has literally nothing to do with anything

however ubers is not a proper or balanced tier besides a few minimal rules, and there is literally no actual reason why blaze blaziken shouldn't be allowed in lower tiers especially when they already folded once on the complex ban thing with rain dance + swift swim

azu and tflame are both usable in a properly regulated and balanced tier so it's irrelevant

the whole point of the tier system is to create environments where as many pokemon are usable as possible

you are actually such a flaming shitlord i can't believe i even bothered responding

>>29340197
>What would RU actually gain from having Blaziken?
A wallbreaker that does more damage than Rhyperior

>Furthermore, if Blaziken doesn't belong to Ubers according to you, because it is carried solely by its ability,
No, no one is saying that

>>29332452
Most BL mons are better than mons in the above tiers. For instance, everything in BL2 is better than Donphan, Goodra and Vaporeon in UU. Tornadus used to be BL2, but it rose recently to UU, where it's fucking amazing.

>>29339586
You don't really need a spinner or a defogger unless you use 1-2 Pokémon weak to it or play stall.

SR also comes with the issue of wasting a turn to set them, they aren't a Pokémon that can come on any time and ruin the viability of others, at best it is a thing you support offensive Pokémon with or control so your switching isn't punished.

HO teams don't feel the pressure of having SR on their field but they love it on the other team. If you are fucked by SR or think Volcarona is unviable because of them you really need to reevaluate your abilities as a competitive battler, I'm using volcarona right now and I have no problem with rocks, been using spdef Talonflame a lot and most rock setters just give me a free switch in when they lay their rocks.

I think you are just a terrible player if you think SR completely blocks a Pokémon... Well ice sucks regardless of SR and bug could use rebalancing, but SR isn't their core issue.

>>29332447
Borderline isn't necessarely a bad tier either actually, chances are that people start building their teams without taking the pokes in consideration to ladder up.
Making a good team with a mix of OU, BL and possibly some UU will in most my cases serve me a moment of suprise and the upper hand.

Example: Empoleon, UU, most people expect tank with scald, or agility-sub petaya.

By bringing a swords dance set, with aqua jet, earthquake and drill peck, you gain the upper hand almost every time. Due to your opponent switching in their specially defensive mons.

it works like a charm and the coverage is great.

>>29331904
>Pangoro
>Zoroark
>In the same fucking class as Kingdra
I need to relook at those two if they are honestly good.

>>29340483
could i ask (genuinely, not being an ass) what is your team and your plan of action to get a volcarona sweep in ou?

there are just so many things that seem to be a full stop to it i struggle to see how it's viable

>>29340307
Why do so many retards not get the difference between a "Drizzle+Swift Swim" and "Blaziken+Speed Boost" ban? Rain was a metagame defining element around which revolved multiple playstyles, and removing it altogether would have turned the tier into something completely different, and probably Chlorophyll/sun dominated, which would have just meant delaying the problem. Meanwhile Blaziken is a single shitmon of dubious value even for RU. And if you allow "Pokémon+ability" complex bans then there would be at least 10 cases to be re-examined between Uber, BL and BL2. I don't know if you would be ok with this, I think it would just be an unnecessary mess desu.

>>29340582
volcarona is amazing, use mega diancie and a defogger like zapdos to keep rocks off the field and check talonflame

>>29341028
That's what you should do, yeah, but the anon he asked said he was using Volc without a Spinner/Defogger and was doing fine.

>>29338248
>i dont play to win

Kill yourself

>>29340582
>Volcarona
>there are just so many things that seem to be a full stop to it i struggle to see how it's viable

If the team doesn't have anything that resist fire/bug/grass or lacks dragons that are not lati@s, then Volca can sweep an entire team like it was no thing.

>>29340582
Physical Mega Diancie, physically defensive u turn Defog Zapdos, modest lo volcarona, twave SR Calm Clefable, trap heatran and tricks specs Latios with surf.

Basically just break everything that switches in, solarbeam magmastorn heatran shits in bulky offense and stall.

I wonder how it feels to stick to one tier

t. Kingdrafag

>>29341269
How have Gengar and Starmie managed to stay OU for so long?

You can't say anything bad about smogon on /vp/.
The Smogon Internet Defense Force wont allow it, just look at how hard they white knighted for the pedo mods that were caught within a month over at smogon.

>>29341257
I should say that Defog in Zapdos is optional, hp ice with rocky helmet in general does better for that team. Hence the no Defog rule I said, I literally forego Defog mid 1800 as my team really didn't need it.

>>29341300
Gengar is Masudas favorite it will be OU forever and every gen it just gets buff weather it be directly in the for of megas or indirectly with mechanics changes like the special split.

Starmie wasnt OU in gen 5.

>>29341303
explanation/ links needed

>>29341347
Yes it was; it wasn't in OU at the start of Gen 6 but it is now.
http://www.smogon.com/dex/bw/pokemon/starmie/

>>29341319
yeah just predict perfectly with diancie every single time lol! easy as that lol!

>>29341319
Defog is not optional at all with a Volcarona. Diancie is not reliable hazard control, and your primary sweeper is completely fucked if they get rocks up.

No one at all is good enough to be some stuntlord switching their diancie into a ferrothorn perfectly every single time they SR

>>29341319
>>29341488
>>29341513
seriously, post some high level replays rn

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>Shadow tag ban
Smogon cucks are beyond redemption.

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>>29341681
>bitch about smogon stallfags
>bitch when smogon bans the pivotal piece of the most bullshit stall teams of the gen

>>29341681
You read up on why it got banned, right? That was them trying to do something against stall.
>b-b-but omgon will never ban stall

Still waiting on the faggot who claims to have laddered to 1800+ using a volcarona team without hazard removal

Fucking put up you cretin

>>29332584
Slippery slope. One broken thing gets banned which was one of the few checks/counters to another really really good thing so that gets banned too. Add in all of the powerful drops from OU and UU like Mega Hera, Terrak, etc. and things just start fucking piling up.

What they shouldve done is make a separate test tier where almost everything is unbanned to see how healthy that new meta would be, but it'll never happen. New suspect tests are constantly ongoing and new drops happen every 3 months. The meta changes so quickly and drastically that the only solution anyone can come up with is "keep banning until everything is somewhat balanced"

>>29341722
>the pivotal piece
You mean mega sableye? Yeah, he's not banned.

>>29341815
Honestly most of the UU banlist is pretty justified. Diggersby in UU would be absolutely retarded, as would stuff like mega-altaria. Stuff like Mence or Togekiss are iffy, admittedly.

RU is a joke of a tier. Fuckers go looking for things to ban and then come up with a reason to ban it after the fact, and the suspect threads are just repetitive circlejerks of the same vague arguments cut and pasted for every single mon.

>>29341887
Literally the biggest problem when facing a stall team is trapping from Gothitelle or Dugtrio, you dumb shit.

>>29341488
You don't need to have Defog, the presence of Diancie and Zapdos is more than enough to keep people from using SR as most want to get rid of Zapdos fast. Team building over the dependence of SR, if you haven't noticed this is a slow volt turn team with a trapper, most of the time you don't even get to see them lie SR in.

>>29341887
Gothitelle single-handedly turned horrible stall matchups, some of which are insta 6-0's, like Nasty Plot Togekiss, certain Manaphy sets, Life Orb Clefable, Stallbreaker Tran, Mega Heracross etc. into at worst losing one mon and often losing none at all.

It also let stall actually do something to other stalls instead of playing out a 1200 turn stalemate.

Sableye is obviously the best stall mega, but it doesn't create situations where your dedicated method of beating stall can't do anything.

>muh complex bans are bad
is what I don't get.

They know a Pokemon can have very varied movesets, so why not ban a problematic ability or move that creates the overpowered moveset instead of throwing the entire Pokemon in the trash?

You can even get more complex, banning an ability or move if they are in combination with another ability or move that makes it broken, after all that ability/move might not be broken in 99% of Pokemon, only on that specific moveset of a specific Pokemon.
I don't get why complex bans are bad, or at least worse than banning an entire Pokemon because of a single way of using it.

>>29342094
The weird thing is, Smogon does do complex bans, but most of it is centered around Baton Pass, and almost every one I've talked to just fucking despises Baton Pass as a move, yet they won't ban it

They will however ban Pokemon from having shit like Agility, Cotton Guard and Baton Pass on the same set

>>29342094
The best reason I can come up with is that it's an attempt to keep the ban process from becoming incredibly arbitrary.

When you start to introduce complex bans you immediately start a huge shitfest over what is really the problem. For example, you could say "just ban protean gren." But is protean really the problem, or is it protean+gunk shot+low kick, because greninja was fine in XY? What if we banned life orb on greninja, would it be okay then? There are too many things you could do to "fix" a broken pokemon.

So instead of squabbling over what particular piece of a mon should be removed to unbreak the whole thing, just ban all of it.

However you do sometimes get absolutely fucktarded decisions like the BP clause where they really just either need to nut up and ban statpass or ban BP altogether.

>>29342281

the real reason is they are too lazy to do complex bans with proper moderation that would not only help borderline cases were a mon is literally only broken by one thing can can easily be banned without banning the mon itself but prevent the stupid chuckle-fucks trying to to do shit like protean+gunk shot+low kick on X greninja or level 70 mewtwo as long has it doesn't use it's strongest stabs/coverage moves.

it would only get slippery if they allowed a such every damn time they don't have to allow it but that would be a radical change they they don't want to do.

doing that would require effort that they don't want to do.

>>29342353
>autistic enough to spend hours laddering just so they can vote to not have to play against a specific pokemon anymore
>lazy
pick only one

>>29336335
Grinding to 100 was piss easy in XY. A level 3 EXP O-Power + the most expensive restaurant + A lucky egg + EXP Share = somewhere in the range of ~100k exp every 15 minutes or so, and about ~$150,000. I'd say they were aware of how annoying grinding would be but they removed that option the very next game, and only player ingenuity in creating Blissey bases created a good alternative for grinding.