>species clause defend this smogon fags

>>28841694
>team of 6 boo-boo keys

>>28841694
> He wants nothing but a team of six Primal Groudon

>>28841694
>team of 6 FEAR ratatas

>Team of 6 Oran Berries

fug

How will Alola Forms be regarded with this clause?

Say someone wanted to run Exeggutor and A-Exeggutor, could they?

I know multiple Rotom formes couldnt be used on the same team but for some of these Alola forms, they are basically entirely new pokemon. Sandslash and A-Sandslash are completely different types even.

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>>28841694
>team of six (6) Snips of the Citizen variety

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>>28841694
Aren't you a bit too young to browse 4chan, Youngster Joey?

>>28841846
if they have the same dex number they're the same pokemon

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>>28841715
>>28841734
why not really? if my enemy can counter one they can counter all, and if they can't counter even one, the other 5 don't even matter

you know what- how about pokemon of the species can exist in one team BUT only if they have different abilities. you cool with that?

>>28841846
How does Wormadam work? Each form has different typing, different stats and different movepools.

>>28841931
No that still sounds like shit. Species clause isn't even exclusive to Smogon, fucking VGC uses it too.

>>28841694
I too want 3 rotom forms on one team

>>28841965
>that sounds like shit
your argument is shit, discarded.

>>28842016
So you think it'd be fun to play against multiple of the same Pokemon? There's just no point. Please, go ahead and make a convincing argument as to why there shouldn't be a species clause. Because right now, species clause seems to be a much better idea than not having one, especially when it's in VGC and Smogon.

>>28842046
>argument
diferent builds for same pokemon. i can put shiftry and cacturne in the same team, why can't i put shiftry and shiftry? don't give me 'slippery slope', playing against and with different builds can be fun, and if fun was an issue stall would be banned. scratch that, fun is subjective.

>>28841931
>if my enemy can counter one they can counter all, and if they can't counter even one, the other 5 don't even matter

252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 98-116 (28.7 - 34%) -- 1.2% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 102-120 (26.4 - 31%) -- 8.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Mega Slowbro: 111-132 (28.1 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO

>have a team full of Talonflame
>opponent sends in their Talonflame counter
>use a few Talonflame to kill it
>sweep the rest of their team with remaining Talonflame
1800 elo here we come

>>28842130
I didn't put an argument because you failed to present one. There's no need to put an argument for something that's already in place when there's no argument against it.

The point of not having multiple of the same Pokemon is to not allow certain unbreakable teams and to allow diversity into the meta. Even in OU, the stalest of tiers, there's a good amount of diversity even in the high ladder.

You ask why you can't put Shiftry and Shiftry when you can put Shiftry and Caturne. Your argument here is clearly flawed as not only do they have different movepools, but they also have different roles and abilities.

If you have the same Pokemon, it decreases the diversity. There would just be an influx of specific Pokemon used multiple times on the same team. And if you say "well what if they have a different moveset?" What qualifies as a different moveset? Just a change in item? A change in one move? If it's a change in item, boom, Scarf Keldeo and Specs Keldeo. A change in move? Extra coverage move on one, basic set on the other. It's really not that difficult to see that Species Clause is the best option available. Even the officials were able to see that, as they included it for VGC.

>>28842222
Quads confirm, species clause is great.

>>28841694
The species clause isn't even something that only applies to smogon. Its also in VGC.
Wtf man.

>>28842222
good call. but what if only ONE of those talonflames had brave bird?

>>28842251
>There's no need to put an argument for something that's already in place when there's no argument against it.
in the pokemon games there is no specias clause. smogon made that rule for their meta, so they SHOULD come up with the reasoning since species clause IS the deviation from the original form.

>diversity
Three pokemons of the same species with different builds are more diverse than team full of mons with choice items.

>but what qualifies
well, scarf goes for speed and specs goe for power. on the other hand, change from specs to band IS a change in build. moveset is more plausiable, if they only allowed to share no more than one move.

smogon server can analyze a mon and suggest best ev spread for it. i think that a change on where one of the big numbers are placed can be qualified as change in build. for example, if in one build the suggestion it gave (even if you didn't take it) is o atk and hp and in another its atk and spe, those are different builds.

>no one's mentioned 6 Mega Fugs

>>28842552
>having more than one mega in a team
anyway in ubers its everything goes anyway.

species clause wasn't a smogon thing to start with it was something put in stadium and was present in all the battle XXX places in the main games since crystals battle tower iirc.

this is something you can't blame smogon on has it predates it.

>>28842607
oh

never played stadium.

>>28841895

If A-Ninetails has an entirely new movepool, and stat spread in addition to the new ability and typing then it damn well sure should be considered a seperate Pokemon competitively in VGC.

Smogon's already banned it due to it's ability so not like it matters there.

>>28842700
They really ought to just change all the sand veil snow cloak shit into some kind of def buff during weather.

>>28842768
>lets enforce smogon rules on the original games
people like you are giving smogon bad name.

>>28842768

Why? Because you don't like it?

There's no reason to get rid of them because there's nothing wrong with them.

>>28842797
Never played smogon in my life
>>28842804
I find weather based abilities to be a hassle to begin with and evasion weather abilities are even shittier. I'd rather have a reliable straight damage reduction for five turns as opposed to maybe avoiding an attack.

>>28842954
>what are status moves

>>28842503
I didn't know anyone could be such a dumbass. In the official Pokemon meta there is, in fact, a species clause. It's not exclusive to Smogon you fucking faggot.

>>28845681
so why smogon can't use their analyzer to make sure the builds are different?

What kind of unoriginal faggot wants to use 6 of the SAME shitmons kek

Git gud skrubs

>>28845693
Oh, they totally could, but when Species Clause is even in VGC, you have to step back and realize: Wow, Smogon is right, Species Clause is necessary for a meta to survive.

>>28845706
>disregard your logic, vgc does it it must be good
yare yare

>>28845700
>git gud scrubs
you are using this meme outsie of its original meaning m8

>>28842640
What? It's suddenly okay that Species Clause exists because it's in the games now?
Where's all the vigor that was just there when you thought it was Smogon only?

>>28845718
Your... Logic? You don't have any so far. I'm not sure you're aware of what that term means.

>>28845723
it doesn't matter. as i said, smogon can use its analyzer to make sure builds are diferent.
the reason there was no vigor in that reply is because that wasn't a main part off my argument so it doesn't change much if its wrong.

>>28845732
There shouldn't be anything wrong with same pokemon as long those are different builds so not to get repetitive.

>>28845762
You're still wrong, pal, sorry to disappoint you. 3 different moves doesn't work, especially in OU where they have Mew. Doesn't work in VGC because then double Landorus-T would mess everything up, or double Primal Groudon, or fucking quadruple Primal Groudon.

Though at this point I'm sure you're baiting. If not, well, I feel sorry for you.

>>28845781
>hurr you troll
well, at least you stopped arguing that different builds of the same species shouldn't be allowed and instead focus on the ability of the system to recognize builds as different. however, smoon can analyze your buld and suggest ev spreads for it. if smogon see different ev spreads than it could deduce differance in build ass well.

also, the ad hominem path isn't good for healthy discussion; i suggest you top it.

>>28845818
What the actual fuck does the system suggesting EV spreads have to do with anything? Are you, at this point, arguing that Species Clause is ONLY bad on Smogon? Because if so, I'm sorry, but that's just hilarious.

They should never, EVER, allow more than one of the same species of Pokemon. It's just a dumbass idea. No reason for it, ever. Not having the same Pokemon forces you to actually build a strategic team instead of the same 6 shitmons.

I'm not even gonna bother anymore, my argument is already far more sound than yours. Have fun rotting in your Anything Goes, where they don't have Species Clause, you fucktard.

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>>28845838
first o, at OP i did specificly adress smogonfags. if the clause is relevant in other metas doesn't matter for this discussion.

second, different builds means startegy more than a team of 6 choice bands. but the latter is allowed.

third, thanks for bumping and have a nice day :^)

>>28845870
Who doesn't like Species Clause? I thought it was a cool idea.

>>28842222
Just fyi i went from 1000 Elo in ag to 1300 with 6 talonflame with only brave bird in 20 minutes

>>28846058
>to 1300
What are u a shi-
>in 20 minutes
Oh.

The prophecy is fulfilled.

>>28841694
>anything goes

>>28842700
The only thing evasion clause prevents is double team and minimize. That's it.

>>28846392
so snow cloak, sand vail etc are fine?
time to put cacturne into my desert team...

>>28846732
Yes you can use those abilities to your heart's content.

>team preview
Defend this omgon fags

Because you can absolutely cheese the everliving fuck out of your opponent, easy.

Sure, a team of 6 Talonflames could be countered by a team of 6 Tyranitars, but who the fuck is gonna bring a team of 6 Tyranitar's in the off chance that they come up against a meme team? And, if they do, that team is then completely vulnerable to a taem of 6 Lucario's, and so on and so forth.

It's stupid. They've tried it before. So has VGC. Then they realized it's horrible and completely stunts the growth and continuation of the meta, and never turned back.

Overwatch just did the same thing not too long ago, and in Overwatch you have the luxury of switching mid match, and even then it was still too bullshit obnoxious. You can't switch your team out mid match in Pokemon.

>>28841965
Yeah the first Nintendo Tournament was won by a fag using 6 Chansey.

>>28841694
No, no. Please, first, you tell us why you think species clause is bullshit.

>>28846826
>Gen V suddenly forces team preview on everyone
Defend this GameFreakfags

>>28846865
>>28846883
smogon can determine if you are using siimiliar builds for the same pokemon and ban that instead of simple species ban.

>>28847301
That's not an explanation of why species clause is fucked.

>>28842222
Item Clause

>>28847501
Why would you keep item clause of you're waving species clause?

>>28847448
if there isn't a good reason for a law it shouldn't exist.

>>28847512
The meta is better with species clause. There.

>>28847510
>tying them together
no, op was about species clause and that alone.

>>28847512
No law has a good reason to exist, because they're all an opinion.

>>28846866
I call bullshit until you provide source. Any half-decent gen 1 team would the shit out of an all-chansey team and the first official tournaments even had Mewtwo and Mew allowed.

>>28847541
laws exist to make sociaty better.

>>28847524
thats because 'muh 6 talonflames'. what if there would be a clause about same build for mons instead of same species?

>>28847628
Not that guy but Mew and Mewtwo were banned from the first ever tourney at SpaceWorld '97 and that carried to the worldwide format in 2000. I think even the '99 US Mall Tour had that format although it was irrelevant in terms of 2000 Worlds.
As for the Chansey thing, I don't know but I've seen it posted on here multiple times.

>>28842222

My mandibuzz hard counters any Talonflame though. I just roost the damage off and kill with Foul play

>>28847801
Seems like you are right. Somehow I remembered that Mew and Mewtwo got banned after the first tournament where they proved to be overpowered, but they were in fact right from the start. However the winning team wasn't an all Chansey team, it didn't even have a Chansey. It was Jynx, Tauros, Starmie, Articuno, Electrode, Kangaskhan.
http://nuggetbridge.com/blogs/entry/1391-a-history-of-japanese-competitive-pokemon-1996-and-1997/

>>28847933
What do you do about Bulk Up + Taunt sets?

>>28847933
Not him and his argument is obviously stupid, but
>My mandibuzz hard counters any Talonflame though.
>Talonflame used Will o Wisp
>Talonflame used Bulk Up

>>28847943
I imagine the anecdote that I see on here is based on maybe the US Mall Tour? Chansey was never a heavily used Pokemon in Japan, but was one of the essentials for any team in the US.
I know at the 2000 Worlds, all or all but one of the teams had Chansey on it (Japan didn't compete).

>>28848026
Maybe. Chansey is certainly great, but there are two many things beating it 1:1 for such a team to really be effective to any somewhat well balanced team.

>>28847944

Taunt first

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Start by defending Item Clause.

>>28848166
nope. one is not bound by the other.

>>28848155
It's not a hard counter if you can't switch in, though. And even if you use Taunt in a 1:1 situation you still eat the WoW as Talonflame will be faster.

Look, species clause is fine. We all need some variety.

>>28848232
what if i want 4 beedrills and 2 vespqueens?

>>28848183
Okay.

Start by defending Species Clause in Battle Spot and VGC.

>>28848343
Then you should probably kill yourself for having shit taste.

>>28848461
why should i defend something i want to abolish?

>>28848574
>muh opinions are better tan yours
do you really want us to go there?

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>>28848593
Why are you asking Smogonfags to defend it when it's a universal thing?

Anyway, Species clause exists because without it battles would be even less diverse than they are now. Can you imagine how broken it would be to have more than one Manaphy on your team? One of the downsides of many Pokémon is that they're limited to one set. Now you can run that Pokémon and have all of its sets in your team at once. You can have a Manaphy that's Tail Glow + Rain Dance, one with Tail Glow + Energy Ball, one with Rain Dance + Calm Mind, one with HP Fire, and so on and your opponent cannot do anything to differentiate or play around them.

>>28849489
people make the same arguments over and over. next time im gonna include in op that species clause could be replaced with build clause. ie same pokemons, but not same build. if you have fast spe sweeper of a species you can't have another fast sweeper, so go for a wall or support and such.

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I don't have a problem with the species clause, but I would like it if it was declassified down to forms. So I can use a bunch of these.

>>28849704
That's exactly what makes it a problem. You can have a Scarf Pursuit Tyranitar and a bulkier one to set up Rocks and both will provide Sand support for your Sand Rush Excadrill and both will support Zard Y. A lot of what makes Landorus-T balanced it that it is easily worn down, but having multiple Landorus-T negates that. Like did you just not read my Manaphy example?

And how do you differentiate builds? A Talonflame with Life Orb and a Talonflame with SD + Acrobatics accomplish about the same thing. Are you going to restrict EV investment, or what?

Pokémon would be awful if Species Clause weren't a thing

You still aren't addressing why you're singling out Smogon when EVERY FORMAT USES SPECIES CLAUSE.

>>28849704
tell me how "smogon" could tell the difference between

Manaphy @ Leftovers
Calm Mind
Rain Dance
Rest
Scald

and

Manaphy @ Life Orb
Tail Glow
Hydro Pump
Ice Beam
Hidden Power Fire

assuming they both have different EV spreads, which they should. Or even somethinf like

Landorus-T @ Scarf
Earthquake
Stone Edge
U-turn
Explosion

and

Landorus-T @ Rocky Helmet
Earth Power (Lando has a usable SpA) / Bulldoze
Stealth Rock
Knock Off
Hidden Power Ice or Flying if Earth Power / Rock Slide if Bulldoze

>>28841694
>smogonfags, defend something that is universal across nearly every format
>including official ones