Me and my friends were having a disscusion. They say there is

Explosion is better than Self-Destruct.

>>28756526

/thread


And shouldn't moves like water gun be worse than moves like surf?

Well obviously things like surf is better than water gun. You need to have moves that you'd replace along your journey. People seem to forget Pokemon is still an RPG

>>28756455
No, Just no. Those that inflict a status condition are better than near identical moves, even if it was a 1% chance it would be superior.

>>28756526
What if your opponent switches into a pokemon that you could have used as set up fodder but you killed it with explosion and it would have lived with self destruct?

>>28756621
>>28756584

But they aren't strictly better. There is a scenario where a weaker move is more beneficial.

>>28757132
I'm curious about what those scenarios are.

Why use Water Gun vs Surf?
Or Gust vs Aerial Ace?

>>28757176
In the case of surf, IIRC it's slightly weaker in doubles format, to make up for hitting two targets.

Tackle is better than Splash. Just about everything is better than Splash, because using Splash is literally a waste of a turn that you could have spent doing something, anything, else. Even fucking Struggle is better than Splash because at least you get to deal damage and could in theory finish an opponent off. There is no reason to include Splash on a moveset.

>>28757250
Fair enough, but replace Surf with Bubble, Bubblebeam, Water Pulse, Scald, etc.

Water Gun is obsolete once you get any of those.

>>28757250
So use Bubblebeam. Water gun is strictly worse than that.

>28757132
>What if your opponent switches into a pokemon that you could have used as set up fodder but you killed it with explosion and it would have lived with self destruct?

That's so fucking nit picky and completely pointless and in no way explains a way that self destruct isn't obsolete

Well, water gun has more peepee and can help if you're trying to catch a pokémon without making it feint and don't have a dedicated pokémon for that I guess

>>28757421
The fuck clover
>>28757132

That's the thing about Pokemon battles and mechanics that keeps me constantly studying moves and mechanics... There is no absolute, 100%, "use this every single time" move or strategy.

It's all situational, and the best teams and most interesting strategies have ways to tilt the odds in their favor to meet those situations.

>>28757696
Am I being trolled?
Shadow ball, scald, knock off, draco meteor, brave bird to name a few are all staples. Are you making some point about the anime? Because in terms of the game it's pretty much 'use this move 90 percent of the time and in the other 10 percent that there's a better alternative you're probably better off with the default move anyway'
And if you are talking about the anime then it's a bunch of bullshit anyway

Protect is strictly better than Detect. Both do the same thing and use the same counter to determine success, but Protect has more PP.

>>28757898

I'm talking about in the games buddy. Scald can't hit multiple opponents like Surf can. If the opponent is statused, Hex outdamages Shadow Ball. Draco Meteor has that nasty drawback of -2 Sp. Attack and 90 accuracy versus Dragon Pulse's consistent damage and 100 acc. Brave Bird is big damage at the cost of killing yourself faster and phsyical Flying attacks with over 70 BP are hard to come by. Knock Off I'll give you, but remember that a generation ago it was only on niche sets due to its paltry power.

All of those moves are as prominent as they are because someone figured out ways to optimize them in their gameplay. They fit most situations, but there will be times where you will be wishing you had something else in that moveslot.

Heat Wave is better than Flamethrower.

>>28758255
No it isnt "Strictly" better. It does less damage in double battles, and it has 95% accuracy vs 100

>>28758191
Pick a format and stick with it. Scald is better than surf in most cases. Brave bird is better than Acrobatics in most cases.

Why are you preaching this anyway? This is the absolute basics of teambuilding.

>>28758703
Key word is "most"... Not always, but most of the time those moves are the better options, but never 100% of the time.

That was all I was saying. No need to get so defensive.

>>28758703
MOST, MOST, not STRICTLY better

>>28756455
All the early weak moves are outclassed by everything else.

Examples: Tackle, Water Gun, Absorb, Ember, etc.

sure, there are extremely specific situations where a "better" move will leave you in a worse situation

but those situations are so incredibly rare in terms of competitive battling that preparing for them is counter-intuitive

>>28759262
But it still means those moves aren't "Strictly" better

Flamethrower is strictly better than Ember. Same chance to burn, same accuracy, higher power. You've already stated in the OP that "PP difference is null" so that shouldn't be factored in here. You wouldn't use either on something you're trying to catch because a chance to burn = a chance for it to die from said burn, defeating the purpose of trying to catch it in the first place.
Toxic is better than Poison Gas. Same base accuracy, but Toxic inflicts an objectively better status of BADLY poisoned as opposed to just poisoning. Toxic will also never miss if used by a poison type. As stated above, PP is irrelivant here by your own logic.

>>28759814
No I didnt state pp is irrelevant, I stated that PP is VERY relevant. If there is a PP difference between moves, there is a situation where you outstall a mon because a move has more PP than its worse counterpart. So therefore its not strictly better.

>>28756455

Why is Koffing so big in the birds eye view?

>>28759853
>>28756455
>Struggle doing damage makes PP differences null
>PP is very relevant
Pick one

>>28759877
Because the pokemon anime has always been full of QUALITY.

>>28759893

Even in a movie. The laziness

>>28759206
Unless there is a pokemon with technician.

But even in that case you probably wouldn't use a move like absorb.

But you would use mega drain over giga drain.

>>28757176
Gust is special. Wing Attack vs Aerial Ace makes more sense

Toxic, Wish, Protect, Wish, Protect is my fave

'strictly' speaking you're arguing semantics

yes some moves are better than others. many, in fact, to the point that examples are trivial

although I'm irritated/amused that you had a phil1000 tier discussion about pokemon moves

>>28759892
Maybe I wrote it wrong, but basicall struggle being a thing makes a PP difference between 2 moves null in the sense of trying to find 2 moves where 1 is strictly better.

>>28759999
>You have selected PP is irrelevant
Also, nice quads fampai

>>28760039
not sure what you are qouting but basically any move, no matter the effect can be considered better than a move with less PP in certain situations. Imagine a clefable vs clefable both with magic guard, and all other PP is gone. Poison gas is actually better than toxic in this situation because you have 40 PP vs 16 PP, forcing the enemy clefable to struggle first.

The thing is that Pokemon games have many different objectives. You have to catch pokemon, you have to battle, you have to win contests. It gets even more specific , for example with battling you have single battles, double battles, rotation battles...in game single battles, competitive single battles, in game double battles.... I could go on. There are so many different scenarios.

So if you don't pick one specific scenario, then of course there aren't moves that are strictly better than others. Everything is situational.

However, if you were to pick a single format, say competitive battling, then you would be able to find instances where some moves would be strictly better than others (because you have a specific objective).

>>28757132
>But they aren't strictly better. There is a scenario where a weaker move is more beneficial.
pretty much this. moves depend on someones playing style
and even weaker are a plus. like trying to only weaken a mon

Here are some other things we thought about. We almost had a breakthrough with roost vs recover with latias. What if you are up against a fearow that uses mirror move to get your roost, you could predict that and earthquake it. We thought this meant roost is strictly better on latias, but then we realized what if we were in a double battle, and our partner was fearow, and it used mirror move on latias, it would want recover to dodge earthquakes.

U-Turn is better than Volt Switch
If you get predicted using either of these moves, with Uturn the worse is you'll hit a rocky helmet Ferrothorn
If you get predicted using Volt Switch and your opponent switches to a ground type, you lost momentum, wasted a turn, and are probably forced to hard switch next turn

>>28760575
Volt switch is better vs water types, therefore u turn is not STRICTLY better

>>28760255
The thing is, if you need to weaken a mon to capture it, you don't use something weak like Water gun. You put False Swipe on the hardest hitter you can afford to put it on, and put it on something with Scrappy to capture ghosts. It's not useful to use Water gun in this situation because it's too weak, and if you're not careful it can actually kill, while False Swipe will only ever put the enemy at 1 HP.

File: 1464898028210.png (242KB, 418x415px) Image search: [Google]

242KB, 418x415px

>>28756455
Ember < Flamethrower

relly makes u think: The Thread.

File: 1474162557326.png (109KB, 1000x1000px) Image search: [Google]

109KB, 1000x1000px

>>28760643
Bubble < Bubblebeam

>>28760592
The goal of Volt Switch isn't to kill anything.
U-Turn also hits grass types, including Venasaur to get past it's Thick Fat
Getting outpredicted while using these moves is A LOT more heavily weighted. When it comes down to it, if every Pokemon that has access to Volt Switch also had access to UTurn and vice-versa, everyone would pick UTurn instead.
The ONLY format where Volt Switch would be better is in the new draft formats like the UCL and the MBL, even then, it's EXTREMELY situational

>>28756455
There aren't seriously people this dumb here, right? Is this ironic?

>>28760720
It's called pushing the envelope or thinking outside the box, anon.

This is how players evolve and push gameplay.

Threads like this where people question what is widely accepted as truth are what inspired things like Tyraniboah and Chain Chomp.

>>28757999
Trips of truth.

>>28757132

If "WELL WHAT IF THEY SWITCHED IN A MON AND IF U USED SPLASH INSTEAD OF HYDRO PUMP U COULDA SET UP ON THEM" is a valid reason why a move is worse then there is nothing "strictly" better in Pokemon, for the same reason your friends aren't "strictly" retarded for thinking that.

The most common example is that Whirlwind is strictly better than Roar because Roar is a sound move, so Soundproof is immune to it. The moves are otherwise identical. There is no reasonable situation where you could ever desire Roar over Whirlwind, which is why Pokemon that learn both ALWAYS run Whirlwind. There are other examples, but I'd have to actually research to check them.

Straight upgrades exist in Pokemon. Don't let your friends think otherwise.

>>28759949
>Unless there is a pokemon with technician.
not quite. Mega Drain + Technician = 60BP; Giga Drain = 75. Strictly worse

>>28760720
Have you ever doubted that there are underaged people on /vp/, anon? Because this thread is some proof.

File: 1473497668824.png (284KB, 586x634px) Image search: [Google]

284KB, 586x634px

>>28756455

Thunderbolt > Thundershock
Dark Void > Sleep Powder
Ember > Flamethrower
Slash > Scratch
Bubblebeam > Bubble
Extreme Speed > Quick Attack

There are many, many more moves like this. I don't know why you thought there wouldn't be any.

>>28760892
Got the order wrong with Ember and Flamethrower. My bad.

File: 1341951054856.jpg (13KB, 320x240px) Image search: [Google]

13KB, 320x240px

Please OP, tell me about that situation you would want to use Constrict in

OPs retarded friends have been BTFO again and again.

How will they ever recover?

>>28756455

where is that gif from?

>>28760885
honestly, not even ralph simpson would agree with OP

>>28757285
>use tackle
>opponent uses counter
>you lose
vs
>use splash
>opponent uses coubter
>you're still alive :-)

>>28760948
Pretty sure it's the first pokemon movie.

>>28756455
There is absolutely zero reason to use sleep powder when spore exists, assuming the pokemon can learn both.
Same type
Spore has 100 acc
Sleep powder has 75
Both have 15 pp

>>28761065
what if you also have effect spore? so when you miss the sleep powder then when they hit you they might get burned or paralyzed which might be better than sleep
i'm joking of course, but OP might use a retarded argument like this

File: 1466722954807.gif (2MB, 500x500px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 500x500px

>>28761065
But Sleep Powder can take a pokemon out of the game for five turns while Spore could just paralyze a mon and allow it to attack.
PLUS it has a higher catch rate modifier. Better for capture.

>>28761184
SPORE, not STUN SPORE

>>28761184
They have the same effect, idiot

File: Spore.jpg (210KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

210KB, 1920x1080px

>>28761202
>>28761212
I can't say I see how that failure of a game is better than Sleep Powder or how it even has anything to do with Pokemon at all other than the creature motif.

If you're just going to troll and not take this seriously at all, pls go and kys.

>>28761032

Is that the one where pikachu goes on vacation and shit?

>>28761274
>I was merely pretending

>>28761274
Legitimately made me kek with that bait/damage control.

>>28757285
Well actually, the one reason Splash is ever acceptable on a moveset is to break Wobbuffet stall mirrors. 60 or so extra pp causes them to start struggling much earlier if they don't have splash. It's a very rare situation that mostly occurred in gen 3, when Wobbuffet was an acceptable niche choice.

File: posthelphelper.jpg (33KB, 655x527px) Image search: [Google]

33KB, 655x527px

>>28760993
>ralph simpson
>simpson

>>28757999
Detect doesn't get disabled by an Imprison user that knows Protect

>>28760892
apparently a move being weaker might be good in certain situations so we aren't allowed those that outpower others like ember and flamethrower

>>28756455
>Sleep powder
>PP: 15-24
>Acc: 75

>Spore
>PP: 15-24
>Acc: 100

>>28763918
Good thing nobody uses imprison.

And the only one that can know both is Confagrious.

>>28761159
OP here, sleep powder can be better when its 1 v 1 and all other pp is gone. It will out pp stall your opponent since it has way more pp than spore

>>28763879
>being this new

>>28766241
both have 15 PP dipshit

Spore is strictly better than sleep powder.

>>28766291
As a side note smeargle is the only Pokemon that can choose to use sleep powder or spore. No other Pokemon can have the two moves in their movepool

>>28760620
>put it on something with Scrappy to capture ghosts
Literally only obtainable by Pancham

Oddly Pangoro still keeps Scrappy, despite not needing it, as a dark-type.

>>28760712
This.
most everything that can get U-turn, uses it (no pun intended).
Volt Switch is extremely rare outside of M-Manectric and Rotom, and Manectric mainly uses it to stack Intimidates

>>28760820
>Roar is a sound move

Sound moves bypass Substitutes now.
99% sure Whirlwind does, too, though.

>>28767750
>>28760712
Are you guys actually dumb? I'm not arguing a move is better than another, I'm arguing "Strictly" better. There are a few examples in this thread that are valid, but Uturn vs Volt Switch is no where near one.

Why would I put u-turn on a special attacking Zapdos over volt switch which is stab? There are situations where uturn on zapdos is actually better, and I've done it, but volt switch is overall better for zapdos
.

>>28767826
>There are situations where uturn on zapdos is actually better

such as?

>>28768478
If you don't want to be stopped by ground types, Its more common in doubles.

Tbh, the use of the word "strictly" in this thread is pissing me off.

>>28756455
There's little reason to use Rock Throw over Smack Down. Smack Down has similiar BP and PP amount, but has 100 accuracy, grounds flying types making them susceptible to ground type attacks and ground type related abilities, and can hit pokemon using fly, bounce and sky drip and cancel fly and bounce.