Uber: Blaziken UU: Infernape RU: Delphox,Typhlosion and Emboar

>>28751124
Fire starter? Yes
Worst starter? That title might be deserved by either Torterra or Meganium, both are PU.

>>28751124
Typhlosion is pretty much the worst fire starter. And this is coming from a guy who loves typhlosion and hates charizard.

>>28751215
>Torterra
TAKE IT BACK

>>28751219
How is it worse than Delphox? At least Typhlosion has Eruption.

>>28751239
Never played ORAS because I don't have a 3DS and don't like to use emulators.

>>28751267
Fuck I meant X and Y. But ORAS too.

>>28751239
Delphox is faster, has a good secondary STAB and an actual Grass coverage move. Plus it can trick its Scarf/Specs.

>>28751124
I guess we're ignoring megas? Charizard X is really only overshadowed by MBlaziken.

>>28751239
Yes, but other than Eruption? Focus Miss, Hidden Power? Typhlosion has no coverage

>>28751215
(you)
But I see what you tried to do there. For real do, Meganium is single handedly the worst starter. Typhlosion wpuld be horrible is it didn't learn Eruption. Actually no, it's still terrible.

>>28751239
Delphox at least has a movepool that's not contradicting with its stats and better stats.

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>>28751124
Stealth Rock really fucks him good. I think he would be higher if not for it. Hey, atleast the 2 megas help a lot.

>>28751124
>Using smogon tiers
>Not actually comparing stats, types and design
HOLY SHIT THAT'S SOME GR8 B8 M8! All joking outside, if you ACTUALLY want to compare shit, use the three things I stated as they're way more important than what some assholes who think an objectively fragile as shit Mon with tons of weakness, a gimmick that is actually needed to be good instead of optional, and only 2 reliable sets that have only two actual moves at best, one usually having it get bodied by ghosts and the other being situationally good , protect, and a set up move or just a baton pass set, cuz let's face it, the only reason blaziken is Uber is cuz no one in smogon is smart enough to run any other walls besides ferrothorn or even a fake out cuz "MAH LIL PERNY" and "MUH JENNY LEAN" filled up their team.

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Charizard was a meme throughout gen 4 and 5.

>>28752895
Can you just piss off, dude?
I could compare the stats and typing of all of the Fire starters and STILL conclude Charizard is the worst of them. Design has no bearing on competitive viability.

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>>28751124
Naaaw.

Charizard is NU, but both of his Megas are OU. He's almost never used without one mega stone or the other, so it would be more appropriate to look at those forms.

Also, if you're playing him as a Drought attacker, running Solar Power instead of Blaze means he can beat Mega-Y in a mirror match.

>>28752895
Smogon tiers are determined by usage.
If a Pokemon is NU instead of OU it's because nobody wants to put it in their OU team.

>>28753008
>so it would be more appropriate to look at those forms.
It would be if all fire starters had megas.

>>28753052
That doesn't make any sense, mega evolutions are part of what makes a Pokemon good, ignoring them for arbitrary reasons would only give you a less objective result.

>>28751239
Delphox is actually 100x better in RU than Typhlosion. Typhlosion is trapped because it has too much usage to be NU, but shitters keep using it in RU despite it being totally unviable there.

>>28753090
Wasn't Typhlosion also banned from NU?

>>28753086
I don't know. I'd like to keep my higher speed when using Garchomp.

>>28753131
What does this have to do with anything?

>>28753131

That's like saying "This Pokemon has two viable movesets, I like one and not the other so I'm not going to count the other one"

>>28753086
We're obviously not discussing the Megas here. That'd be like going into a thread about the most useful unevolved Pokemon and trying to force a conversation about Doublade to start discussing Aegislash.

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>>28751124
Yes, he is. Having been a Charizardfag, I would know. The day Stealth Rock started being a thing, it was the end. There was no reason to use Charizard after that. But I did.

I stuck with Charizard throughout the entire 4th and 5th Gen. I was laughed at for years. I still used Charizard. Came up with many ways to deal with SR. Rapid Spin, Magic Bounce, anything I could use. I lost a lot. After years, I won a local tournament with Charizard. People didn't laugh. They didn't make fun of me. I was on the verge of crying.

Then came the day when his Mega form was announced. Charizard had Drought. I was so happy that day. People payed attention to him again. I was online, looking at the comments, seeing people come up with different ways to use him already.

Then they revealed his second Mega form. Charizard became a Dragon-type and gained Tough Claw. I can't possibly describe my feelings from that time. After years and years of being the worst Fire starter competitively, I could finally see him being useful again.

People stopped laughing. Stealth Rock didn't go away, but people still used him. But that attention brought a lot of hate. Now, instead of laughing at me, people insult me when I mention Charizard. After suffering for so many years, when GF finally made Charizard stronger, they apparently "gave too much attention" to Charizard.

Being a Charizard fan is true suffering. No matter what happens, we will never find peace. Even Pikachu has been more or less accepted, but Charizard will never be.

>>28751528
>Charizard X is really only overshadowed by MBlaziken
Blaziken without mega overshadows Charizard X.

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>>28753052
>>28753280
We're discussing starters. Which would not include Charizard, since he's evolved from the starter.

By your logic this thread should be about unevolved starter pokemon. Are you asking if Charmander is the worst starter? If not, if you actually want to discuss competitive viability then you must acknowledge all aspects of the evolutionary line, including hidden abilities (which is what makes Blaziken Uber) and Mega evolutions (which make Charizard OU).

>>28752895
Good luck starting with half HP bar with a simple stealth rock

>>28753434
>We're discussing starters. Which would not include Charizard, since he's evolved from the starter.
It's pointless to compare mega starters since not every starter has mega forms

>>28753490
Mega evolutions aren't necessarily better than regular Pokemon though.

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why do people dislike meganium

i think it's pretty cool

>>28753550
That's not the point. It takes a mega spot

>>28753371
>I stuck with Charizard throughout the entire 4th and 5th Gen. I was laughed at for years. I still used Charizard. Came up with many ways to deal with SR. Rapid Spin, Magic Bounce, anything I could use
That's 90% because you lack skill and 10% because you used shitmon.

>>28753578
What does this change? In Battle Spot everything takes a item slot.

>>28753371
This is the most autistic thing I've read in a while.

>>28753568
I dislike it because it's useless.

>>28751651
PU is a real tier

>>28753550
>not necessarily better than regular Pokemon
It's not fair to compare a mega starter with a non-mega starter who has 100 less BST

>>28753638
Garchomp's BTS is lower than mega-Garchomp's, but it's still a better Pokemon overall.

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>>28753607
Its pretty tame compared to the average zardfag

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>>28753490
>not every starter has mega forms
So what you're saying is that Charizard has options and abilities other pokemon in this category lack?

You're insisting on making a comparison without accounting for all variables.

>>28753052
his point is that nobody is using regular charizard because anyone using it would use one of the megas.

that's why salamence isn't in OU anymore. I still think charizard would be NU either way though

>>28753638
>It's not fair to compare a mega starter with a non-mega starter who has 100 less BST

So you're saying mega starters are objectively, even quantifiably better than non-mega starters?

Alright, good thread, I'm glad we agree that Char is not the worst starter.

>>28753371
you could always not be a faggot and just open with him you know. Both his mega forms are good enough to do that.

>>28753371
>rapid spin, magic bounce, anythign I could use
congratz you used a move for its intended purpose!
>I was on the verge of crying
fag
>charizard will never be accepted
god you're a retard.

I like charizard too. so many people love charizard. are you fucking blind?

>>28753615

It has it's uses.

I mean I use mine for Sweet Scent on the field.

And I'm sure it has a second use but I'm blanking here.

>>28753817
Doesn't Tropius fill that role better?

>Harvest
>Leppa Berry
>Sweet Scent
>Fly
>Earthquake
>Razor Leaf

Fly to where you're hunting, Sweet Scent to attract hordes, EQ/RL to hit them all, Leppa Berry+Harvest to restore PP in the field.

>>28753371
i really like this post

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>Charizard
>Worst starter
Yeah, Charizard is pretty bad compared ot the fully evolved forms, but if you take the entire line into account and how useful they are in-game (the way pokemon is meant to be played) you get a vastly different picture.

Charmander and Charmeleon are pretty beastly, beastly enough that they can wreck Brock even with a type disadvantage. Unless you're a moron and use rage every turn or something not much can stand in their way.

Tepig's line, on the other hand, is almost totally shit. They are only barely better than Pansear and Simisear, and those are supposed to be shitty replacements starter to fill out your team. And don't get me started on Tepig's abysmal level-up moves. For most of the game your main STAB is flame charge, which has the same Base Power as fucking Tackle. Sure, it learns Flamethrower, but it has terrible Special Attack. Not to mention the line is slow with no bulk, meaning they'll get killed by stuff that has no right to be beating them, like Clay's Excadrill (you're supposed to beat Steel with Fire, you damn pig, you can't even do that right!)

Tepig in Black Version is the only time I ever boxed my starter (replaced by Litwick/Lampent/Chandelure, which were much better and learned actual useful moves) and I've been playing since 1999. Tepig is the worst fire starter, hands down.

>>28755285
It has 100 base special attack. That's not too bad considering Samurott has 100 base attack and still runs physical moves pretty decently in game.

>>28751124
Typhlosion is literally shittier than Charizard in every aspect. Same stats, but shittier movepool, no recovery, no secondary STAB, no nothing.

>>28751239
>le eruption
So does Mega Camerupt. That hardly makes it good. Especially if your opponent can just shut you down with Stealth Rock. Typhlosion is shit.

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>>28753371
this post literally described me
charizard is love charizard is life

>>28755331
Well, I was focusing mainly on Tepig and Pignite, but I can tell you why Emboar is terrible too. Compare Emboar to it's main competition in that game. As a Physical Attacker you can compare it to Darmanitan, which has vastly better speed and attack, and is available relatively early in the game as Darumaka, which has almost the same stats as Pignite and evolves at a similar level. Darmanitan also doesn't get fucked by Skyla and, I can't stress this enough, learns actual good moves. Fire Punch at level 22, Flare Blitz before it even evolves. Emboar can't learn Flare blitz until level 62 for fucks sake. Unti lthen you got Heat Crash, which is iffy at best since they aren't really as heavy as you'd like to make full use of that move.

Next we compare Emboar to Chandelure, available mid-game, slightly after when I dumped Emboar to train some thing better. Lampent, not even the fully evolved form, has only slightly less speed and power than Emboar, the fully evolved form of its line. As a special attacker Emboar is only marginally better than fucking Lampent.Lampent also learn useful moves at lower levels too, like Flame Burst (WAY better than fucking Flame Charge Pignite is stuck with for most of the game), Night Shade, and Confuse Ray. Now let's say you get the moves you want on Lampent and you're ready to evolve it. Suddenly you have better Speed than Emboar, WAY better special Attack, and somehow you get better defenses (although Emboar still has more HP).

Emboar being able to go mixed is pretty irrelevant since AI trainers rarely use obligated walls, and rarer still use ones the are difficult to wear down. How often do you fight AI trainers with shit like Blissey or Skarmory, honestly? The closest thing to stuff like that is Brycen's special wall Cryoganal, which any old fire type can rape anyway, and all those Boldors you fight in caves.

Emboar is simply outclassed by the other fire types, even in-game. It's bad, seriously.

>>28755285
Emboar easily had the best movepool out of the gen 5 starters you moron.

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>>28755695
No matter how bad Tepig is in-game, Snivy is worse. Remember, the only get Overgrow in Gen-5, and have terrible attacking stats.

>>28755751
And yet it still manages to be bad compared to the rest of the game. Sure, Emboar is the best starter of the three, but being the shiniest turd in a lot doesn't make you less of a turd.

>>28753371
DD Charizard is decently usable in gen 4 and 5 as long as you're willing to run proper support. Nobody does, since you can just as easily use anything else with Dragon Dance to better effect without dedicated support.

>>28755695
I guess that makes sense. Kind of. I dunno, I mostly used Samurott who was fine as a starter. Not the best, but Megahorn, Swords Dance, Waterfall, plus it learned Razor Shell at level 17 which was amazing. Plus it's not like your other water options were better. Seismitoad is about as good, maybe a bit worse but man it's fucking hideous.

>>28751124
Put all this SMOGON bullshit down your throat and get pleasure of just playing pokemon games. Also - enjoy pokemon designs. Charizard objectively one of the best designs of all, not only starters.

Delphox, Emboar and Venusaur - worst starters final evos depending on designs.

>>28753712
>Opening with Zard X

>>28752895

>design
This is a competitive discussion
>type
How about looking at what the likeminded actually does, and how it functions against other pokemon
>stats
Hahaha

Literally leave this board

>>28757980

>2016
>still obsessing over designs

>>28755362
Mega Camerupt only works in trick room.

Don't Charizard and Typhlosion have the same BST? So what exactly makes Typhlosion better than a 'wingless Charizard'?

>>28758732
It's only really better than non-Mega Charizard, and that's because of no 4x rock weakness, Eruption and Flash Fire. It's probably not that much better.

>>28758732
Charizard hates sneaky peables.

>>28757980
Charizard is a terrible design though.

>unironically liking le generic orange fire dwagon
Are you 12?

>Are you 12?

>1996
>buy RED first timer

Yes

>Charizard

Muh

>Machamp

>>28751235
>The opposing Poliwag used Ice Beam!
>Torterra fainted!

>>28760208
Simple design =/= Bad design. Going by that logic, you can make it sound like almost every Pokemon has bad design. It might be just an orange Dragon, but it still looks cool.

>>28760719
>but it still looks cool
No.

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>>28751215
why do people keep saying Terra is PU when it's NU?

>>28758732
It isn't really.

Holy fuck, this thread just showed me that Typhlosion is in RU now. Literally how? It's so bad even with Eruption. Even Samurott has a better offensive presence than it in RU and it's NU.

>>28760652
Its typing is pretty great though, it's the last of Torterra's problems.

>>28766730
It got banned. Even if it didn't have the usage for RU it'd be in BL3.

>>28766788
We ran Rampardos with Ice Beam back in the day to take care of this halfshelled fuck

Grass/Ground is pretty mediocre when you have less than 60 speed

>>28766902
Of course, but the "less than 60 speed" part is the real issue.
Torterra is awful as a tank, but it would be great as a fast attacker thanks to its STABs.

>>28758732
Lava Plume and CS Eruption. The movepools are completely different

Also the lack of a flying type which is nothing but a hindrance.

>>28751124
Ignoring the megas I see? Then yes, worst fire starter but not by a whole lot. It's very good in NU after all.

>>28751124
Typh is BL3 last I heard which is the "I'm not good enough for RU but too good for NU" tier. Or it might have moved up, what is it with RU and keeping hold of shit pokemon. Ambipom in PU when.

>>28751239
Retard alert.
>Delphox
>Calm mind
>fuck off style speed tier being just over 100
>Two STABs
>Psyshock and Dazzling gleam
>Handful of nice support moves
>Can take a special hit
>Ability allows it meme sets :^)

>Typhlosion
>one strong move
>better physical movepool while being special biased Still not good
>Only coverage special wise is focus miss
>Base 100 speed tier with a billion other things
>No support
>No meme sets :^(
>No setup
>Delphoxes physical bulk with none of the special bulk

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>>28766939
>but it would be great as a fast attacker thanks to its STABs
But that applies to the majority of awful defensive types, especially if Ground, Ice or Rock is involved

>>28766939
Tortoises aren't supposed to be fast anyways. To use Torterra efficiently you need to run something that increases your speed like Rock Polish. Even then, Torterra doesn't have much attack.

>>28758222
Mega Camerupt is bulky enough to work anywhere you want it to, really. Like Reuniclus.

>>28751124
ITT: OP has been in a coma for 6 years

>>28753086
Garchomp and flygon are both Dragon/ground types with Earthquake and Outrage/Draco Meteor.

The difference is 'chomp has a higher BST and is as such, 100% superior at anything Flygon can ever try to do besides muh u turn.

Typhlosion can never compete with CharYzard because it doesnt have 100 stat points that CharYzard does.

>>28758732
It doesn't. In fact, it makes Typhlosion precisely worse.

>>28760719
Looks like a fat fuck to me. Like Dragonite but edgier.

>>28755362
>no secondary STAB
Charizard has this? I wasnt aware Charizard got Brave Bird

>>28767089
Typhlosion can't really compete with vanilla Charizard either, anyway.

>>28767106
Air Slash. Vanilla Charizard is a special attacker.

>>28755362
>Camerupt
But Typhlosion has 100 speed, Camerupt has 30. You have to go first to use Eruption/Water Spout or its useless.

>>28767046
Will they ever make a fast Rock/Ground type?

>>28767054
Shell smash would fix its attack and it would make it really fast if it had at least 60 base speed, it would also make sense with the tortoise theme.
It's just a shame that its unique typing, nice design and movepool have to be wasted on a Pokemon with mediocre stats.

>>28767123
>Air slash

???

>>28767161
A lot of the starters seem to have really poorly distributed stats despite the high BST. They need a godly movepool or ability just to compete. Unless they're Empoleon who's still managing to fall off.

>>28767128
Or you can just use Rock Polish or Trick Room. Or Baton Pass it speed.
Or, you know, don't use Eruption, since that's a shitty move on a mon that's always prone to losing 25% health whenever coming in.

>>28767170
I don't get what you're implying here.

>>28767151
I doubt it, they're all cripplingly similar and the ones that do deviate all have low BST

Unrelated question:

Has competitive pokemon had power creep? Is it easier to one-shot everything now or was competitive broken at the start?

>>28767093
>Looks like a fat fuck to me.
Yeah, because Dragons look that. Any Pokemon that looks like a European Dragon is the same.

>>28767211
Because kiddies are too dumb to care about using proper attacks so Starters have to be relatively equal, except Delphox since it's a Psychic.

Even Blaziken has 110 Sp. Attack iirc

>>28767300
Gen2 games could last for 80-100+ turns.
With neither player trying to Stall.
Things deal a lot more damage now thanks to Choice Band and Life Orb as well as abilities (Tough Claws being literally superior and then some to say, Iron Fist and sort of better than Sheer Force) so yes, matches go quicker if you want them to. But then you look at gen 1 "at the start";
Persian having a 210BP attack and hitting rocks with Bubblebeam, Tauros being just ...
Aerodactyl existing, even without STAB
And of course, fast Psychic types. Or Gengar, who was basically a Psychic

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>>28767324
Here's your (you).

>>28767300
>Is it easier to one-shot everything now
Gengar Thunderbolt vs. Aerodactyl: 226-266 (62.2 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Aerodactyl: 322-382 (106.9 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Objectively speaking, yes.

>>28767373
Not to mention everything could have every single stat maxed out in gen 2.
Now we have EV's that can be placed only so much.

>>28767373
Gen 2 also had broken SleepTalk mechanics, didn't it? Plus there was Curse which a lot of physical mons carried. It was like having any old recovery move, except it removed any bad status too.

>>28767472
SleepTalk still exists and Curse is basically bulk up. Curse was good then because things were bulkier, now it's meh.

>>28767300
>Has competitive pokemon had power creep?

Of course. Pokemon with more optimized stats than before along with new items, abilities and moves are introduced every generation.

>>28751124
Who cares, is the coolest.

>>28767488
Yeah, but I heard that if SleepTalk picked Rest in Gen 2, you still got healed rather than failing.

>>28751124
Welp here goes some autism

>Blaziken
Perfect. Excellent offensive stats with nearly good speed patched by speed boost perfectly. Support options in baton pass. Can boost its offences, has coverage from hell and two great high powered STABs.
>Infernape
Blaziken but less. Less offences, no HJK, already decently fast but no speed boost. Fairly good anyway. Better support options than blaziken but it just ain't worth it since it can't bring the offensive pressure blaze does.
>Emboar
Mad wallbreaker. Its hits hurt, a lot. It just isn't fast enough to do shit in higher tiers and its wallbreaking capability is done much better by other things like darmanitan. But nothing can really match its coverage as a wallbreaker. Solid.
>Delphox
Everything about it is about one step from being good. Stats are almost there, its fast but not really blazingly fast, it hits hard but not really all that hard, its fairly bulky but still gets 2hko'd by way too much. Prime mega bait. Its movepool is really solid, fire+psychic is already pretty good as a STAB combo given fire patches up most of psychics shortcomings in having a strong move and coverage wise. Dazzling gleam as its coverage option is kinda shit but not the worst.
>Typhlosion
Click eruption with a scarf on.
That's all there is to this thing. It's got nothing else. It's not even that great at it given it even needs a scarf at all. It really wants to be specs for maximum wallbreak but it just can't with its speed. And even when it does this, it's easy to wall and force out only for it to come back in likely to hazards.
>Charizard
Jack of all trades master of none. Special movepool is pretty good, but not perfect. Physical movepool is much the same. It has setup moves, but not the bulk to use them. It has support moves, but not the speed or bulk to use them. It even has recovery. Only loses to typh because typh has one thing it's passable at as opposed to charizards several things its 'ok' at.

>>28767390
If you don't agree, post any other Dragon-like Pokemon that looks slim like Rayquaza. By Dragon-like, I mean Dragon-like in design. Pokemon like Noivern have Dragon-type, but doesn't look like a Dragon at all.

>>28767513
Oh yeah, you're right. I forgot about that. Lmao, those were the days.

>>28767472
>>28767513
Generation III

If Rest is called by Sleep Talk it will automatically fail.

He's right. I always wondered why Sleep Talk couldn't successfully use Rest. I guess it was unbalanced

>>28767539
>the way japanese people draw dragons is the way dragons are supposed to look
Not sure what you're saying here. Yes, Game Freak is horrible at making dragons look like European Dragons. They all pretty much look like shit. They only don't look like shit when they're not trying to look like Western Dragons.

>>28767566
I guess I wasn't being clear enough. My bad.
I'm not saying it's just GF that draws them fat. I just googled the term "European Dragon" and almost all of them appeared somewhat fat. That's how everyone draws European Dragons.
I'm not trying to say Charizard doesn't look fat, or that it's somehow GF's fault, but rather that it is how most Dragons are depicted.

>>28767535
I maintain than Blaziken still would have been a perfectly usable wallbreaker if it never received Speed Boost. It speed ties others like Mamoswine and base Gallade, but to make up for its lack of defenses and lower Attack it has unusually high powered options and coverage moves on both sides of the spectrum

>>28767663
Without speed boost it's somewhere around on par with emboar which is still a pretty nice place to be

>>28752951
>>28753035
>>28753449
>>28758159
I love how half of you mentioned charizard when the actual focus of what I wanted to say was about how the fuck blaziken even made it to Uber and stayed there so long cuz of one gimmick. I wholeheartedly agree with the fact that base charizard sucks ass COMPETITIVELY but you guys literally just read the fucking green and only the green. And yes, I know this is a smogon tier thread, but if you REALLY want to compare the starters, you might as well look at everything they bring to the table and not just what a bunch of morons who said something almost as fragile as a fucking Pikachu and nothing but literal "hope to god they aren't smart enough to counter set up" sets deserves to be banned with the best of the best, the ones that DON'T need shitty gimmicks to actually work, and can actually run sets that don't require protect and focus sash so keep it ALIVE. The OP shows the smogon tier list and asks the question if charizard is the objectively worst starter ever, which INCLUDES, even though not mentioned, everything in the green I stated earlier, when charizard only sucks competitively, where as blaziken, even though with a god send in speed boost, still needs set ups cuz holy shit those stats, is extremely awkward looking especially when looking at its pre evos, and even though doesn't get annihilated by stealth rocks, has a really shitty typing with no immunities at all. A starter better than blaziken would be infernape as it doesn't rely on any actual set up sets, no need to run protect and focus sash, has better stats, and, this is subjective, a comparatively better design, plus even though has the same shitty typing, can make better use of it
So please read outside of the fucking green next time before replying.

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>>28767718

>>28753008
If it needs a mega to be good, then it probably sucks.

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>>28767660
>I just googled the term "European Dragon" and almost all of them appeared somewhat fat. That's how everyone draws European Dragons.
Yeah, you sure aren't baiting at all!

>>28767663
>I maintain than Blaziken still would have been a perfectly usable wallbreaker

Youre correct
http://www.smogon.com/dex/dp/pokemon/blaziken/

>>28767717
I'd say slightly better than Emboar but worse than Infernape

>>28767794
Some Pokemon might need that extra push, though. Hydreigon isn't a bad Pokemon at all, but Mega Evolution can give it that extra oomph that it lacks now.

>>28753122
Yeah. It should be BL3.

>>28767663
>>28767812
>Overview

>Blaziken is arguably the best wallbreaker in the UU metagame, thanks to its awesome mixed attacking stats (120/110/80), Fighting-type STAB to take out common special walls, and powerful Fire-type STAB to deal major damage to everything else.

Literally everything you said echoes the Smogon opinion from pre-Speed Boost.
interestingly;
>Blaziken wishes it were faster, as its middling Speed and defenses are the main things holding it back.

>Blaziken literally dreamed about being faster
>Dream World made it true

>>28767852
>>28767812
Thats true, but even now with the extra Speed and Powercreep, along with the new "priority meta" it would have stood out

>>28767852
>Durant dreamed that it could take a day off from work
>Gliscor dreamed that it could be immune to its own poisons
>Gardevoir dreamed its friends would stop touching it
I love Dream World

>>28767800
>We will never get a proper european dragon pokemon

>>28767850
It would probably be unbanned now, seeing as how so many things changed since it got banned.

>>28767925
Reminds me of something i read a really long time ago on some cheap Pokemon fansite of this supposed "original Dragonite"

>>28767903
I have never understood why Pokemon with Levitate as their sole ability never received a DW/HA

>>28767800
Uh, so you don't think they're fat? They looked just as fat as Charizard to me. One last question, does Mega Charizard Y look fat to you? If not, I'm guessing you find Charzard fat because of its stubby legs. Charizard Y and normal Charizard are mostly the same size, except Charizard Y has longer legs and wings.

If you do find Charizard Y fat, then I guess it was a waste of your time. I'm sorry about that.

>>28760208
>le generic orange fire dwagon
I'd have no problems with Charizard if it was only generic, I dislike the design because it looks like it wants to be cool/threatening/edgy, but it's also fat, so he looks like an asshole.

He's cool, though. Almost no Charizard actually is an asshole, but they look like that.

>>28753371
Not a Zard fan, but your post is pretty cool.
>Then they revealed his second Mega form. Charizard became a Dragon-type and gained Tough Claw.
I might have a bad memory, but wasn't X form revealed first?

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>>28768435
>I'm just pretending to be stupid, that'll get him!
Either that or you're actually retarded, idk which is better.

>>28768503
no it wasn't

>>28768503
No, it was revealed later. It would've been hilarious if that anon had gotten the order wrong after claiming to be such a big Zardfag.

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>>28751124
>Is charizard objectively the worst starter?

No, the worst starter is objectively pikachu and that answer will never change no matter how many times this question is asked.

>>28768536
>>28768575
Okay, thanks for the info and sorry for the confusion.
I wasn't really into gen VI info back then and just checked vidya websites for news every few days/weeks.

>>28768602
>that answer will never change no matter how many times this question is asked
Litmus Eevee.

>>28768633
>Litmus Eevee

?

>>28768858
A shitty joke about a shit starter from a rom hack. Litmus was it's special ability that changed every Normal-type move to a random type.

Before you say that you were only talking about Main series games, realize that OP was also only talking about Fire-Type Starters, which Pikachu isn't.

>>28751124
If we talk about vanilla fire starter (realise/no ha/no mega)

>Infernape
>Blaziken
>Delphox?
>Emboar?
>Typhlosion?
>Charizard

>>28755362
>Typhlosion is literally shittier than Charizard in every aspect. Same stats, but shittier movepool, no recovery, no secondary STAB, no nothing.
Fire is totally better than fire/Flying, expecially when you got no decent flying stab like charizard.
Both have shitty movepool, but charizard got buffed gen after gen in this aspect I think.
>no secondary STAB
Exactly as Charizard (he got solar beam but again, he needs sun support)
In general he needs a lot more support than typhlosion, just only for make it possible to enter the field for him.

>>28768948
>OP was also only talking about Fire-Type Starters

He certainly doesn't say so in the OP.

>>28769013
And you didn't say you were talking about main series in your post.

>>28768985
>Fire is totally better than fire/Flying, expecially when you got no decent flying stab like charizard.
I disagree, despite sharing the Rock weakness Fire and Flying mesh pretty well

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>>28769035

>>28768985
>you got no decent flying stab like charizard.
What is Air Slash for 400, alex

>>28768985
>In general he needs a lot more support than typhlosion, just only for make it possible to enter the field for him.
Just use bulky Roost, you dipshit. You're so dumb it hurts. Typhlosion NEEDS rocks removed to run Eruption, which is a shitty set. Charizard can just Roost it off with no problem.

>>28769323
lmao no he can't. That would require scaring something out.

Typhlosion is objectively better solely because scarf Eruption is more useable than any set Zard can run.

>>28753657
How is the comment in the middle with 33 upvotes cringe?

Clearly he's just sharing a story about his Charizard overcoming the odds rather than arguing how Charizard is better than it actually is.

>>28769361
>That would require scaring something out.
>implying Jynx, Lilligant, Shiftry, Haryama, Hitmonchan, Scyther, Steelix, Vivillon, Gurdurr, Abomasnow are tough switches for Zard
Dude it's piss easy to revenge come in with Zard, even with pebbles on the field.

>>28769449
>Rayquaza
>Sunny Day

Granted it further proves his point, but its still a silly oversight

>>28767273
He's trying to say Charizard, typically a special attack user, gets a secondary STAB in Air Slash.

>>28769513
That was what I said earlier.

>>28769361
Specs Eruption was a thing in NU also. And Charcoal Eruption.

>>28768158
Because it wouldn't make sense for only half of the species to be able to levitate to avoid ground moves. That's literally it. Considering there are airborne Pokemon without Levitate it's retarded though.

>>28767046
For fuck sake, use a slow volt turner, run 240 speed adamant and a choice band.

You 1hko everything that can't kill him, 240 speed lets you outspeed and 2hko skarmory with stone edge, banded eq 2hkos slowbro making him unable to switch in, rotom dies to stone edge and Megahorn means you 2hko tangrowth and mega slowbro.

Just fucking learn to use this guy! Bonus points for fucking Zapdos and Clefable silly.

>>28769575
Levitate barely ever makes sense since almost all the mons that get it are clearly just flying and not "levitating". Ground immunity should be a hidden trait or something like that.

>>28769513
>using Air Slash
>Not being togekiss

>>28751124
Charizard is OU you idiot

>>28769622
>Ground immunity should be a hidden trait or something like that.

It is, flying types don't need levitate to be immune to ground.

>>28751124
Charizard has not only one but two megas which put it above infernape, delphox, typhosion, and emboar.

Unfortunately.

>>28767211
>A lot of the starters seem to have really poorly distributed stats despite the high BST.
This is the reason I boxed my starter in Gen V. Any other gen and they would've been passable but with all the min-maxed pokemon you get in Unova, they fall behind really quickly. Stoutland manages to outclass the starters despite having a lower BST.

>>28769711
I could still justify using Samurott since no other water type really outclassed it. But then again, B/W was one of the weird games where your water options weren't fantastic either way.

>>28769664
Charizard is NU, actually.
The megas are OU, however.
Usage doesn't mean much anyway. Typhlosion is the worst Fire starter yet RU shitters keep using it.

>>28769851
I must be the only one who enjoyed using Jellicent.

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>>28769610
>use rhyperior
>get revenge killed by feebas's whirlpool

Pick two

Also that wasn't even the point the post was making, its highlighting that most typings involving those three types lose a lot of their problems when slapped on something sanic. Really it could have been substituted for Aggron, Articuno, Alolan Sandslash and made the same point

MEGA INFERNAPE WHEN

>>28769927
By the time you can get it, your starter is probably fully evolved. If you pick Carracosta you have to give up Archeops and it's still not that fast with a Shell Smash. The monkey is the monkey, Basculin had a pretty mediocre movepool, and Swanna wasn't all that good. There was Seismitoad, but I just didn't want to deal with Palpitoad and its hideous shaking warts.

>>28770098
Pretty much. I found it harder and harder to not pick Oshawott just so I wouldn't have to worry about finding a different water type.

>>28770098
>>28770414
I didn't mind catching a water type later on. Mostly I used grass types to deal with annoying rock/grounds, so I didn't really have a need for a water type.
Jellicent was particularly cool because it was a Ghost type and had Recover.
I'm still confused as to why moustachio-bro is so little used in competitive. It's just that good.

>>28771070
First grass type I got was always Petilil, which was a way off. Having something for fire was nice too.

Jellicent was used in Gen V competitive. It probably got used less because of Knock Off buffs.

>>28769972
CB Rhyperior 2hkos hippowdon.

Seriously dude, if you aren't using Rhyperior as a wallbreaker in an offensive volturn core you are doing it wrong, people bitch about stall or bulky teams, CB Rhyperior is the perfect answer to that and twave spam.

>>28770098
>>28770098
.... Swanna?

>>28769927
I have a set Beeheyem in my first run for a modest synchronizer for Kyurem, it was Glorious.

Jellicent is also great.

>>28771140
Oh for fire I just used my boy sandile. Didn't have much of a problem with fire anyway, I picked Tepig, my problem was water really.

>>28752895
shut the fuck up

>>28753035
are you fucking stupid

What about fire starters brings the Underage Defense Force in full swing?

>>28771260
He's right though. Tangrowth recently went from RU to OU. Same thing happened to Quagsire (but since then it has dropped back down again). Tiers don't necessarily mean Pokemon are good or bad. Zapdos, for instance, is pretty mediocre in OU, and it was decent enough when it was UU, but it rose back to OU anyway because people just use it a lot.

>>28753215

If a Pokemon has two viable EV spreads, one being slightly tanky but focusing on an offense stat and Adamant natured, and the other is Jolly with 252 speed and a bunch of HP but only a sliver of attack EVs (say, bare minimum to OHKO 252/0 Latios with EQ after SR damage and LO recoil), then one might prefer the Latios killer to the tanky set.

Just like the real world situation of MChomp v Garchomp, they play vastly different roles. But, it also really sucks knowing that Mega Chomp is slower than Kyurem

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>>28771301
Don't you know? The combination of summer and SM leaks in conjunction with fresh off the boat Redditors means that /vp/'s userbase is roughly anywhere between 50%-60% underage, another 10% being those who just turned 18 and started with D/P or are just stupid normies.
With all that being said, of course fire starters are going to get posted like fucking crazy, this board is dead.

>>28751124

Why do People care about unofficial labelles from unofficial sources?

There is no worst Pokémon starter.

>>28771616
You're right.
But Typhlosion is pretty bad tho.

>>28771534
It's september you idiot.

>>28771616
chikorita

>>28771260
Are you?

Charizard is decent if you don't play it under smogon rules where everyone spams stealth rock all day

How much better would Torterra be if it were Grass/Rock? I've always wondered if there was any way to make my favorite Grass starter viable.

>>28771910
Outside smogon rules only idiots won't do it.

>>28771979
So, Cradily?

>>28771979
The best cure for Torterra would be if it dropped that Hidden Ability and had Thick Fat instead.

>>28772506
The best cure would be Shell Smash

>>28773125
Well yeah that would be awesome. But just Thick Fat would make it decent.

>>28769293
>gets btfo
>calls autism