Smogon and Baton Pass (again)

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>>28613875
>You could win or lose a battle with this team solely on Attract rolls, taking skill out of the game

>Muh luck argument
And yet Scald is still an OU staple
Why not just remove EVERY move that MIGHT do something less than 100% of the time?
Oh right, you can't, because nearly s the entire fucking move roster

>>28613875
Is this actually a thing? I can see one thread where people are discussing baton pass in general, it's nowhere near a suspect test, and until Scolipede tops usage stats I can't see it being banned.

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Remind me why Swoobat is PU again? While it certainly doesn't belong in the highest tiers it does have extraordinary sweeping potential backed by a base speed of 114.

here's a way to counter it
genderless pokemon or oblivious
or you know
getting to scolipede first.

>>28613998
it relies too much on unaware/simple and its movepool isn't very good, and on top of that, swoobat is piss poor with defenses

>>28613947

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/baton-pass-yes-again.3573973/page-3

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-ou-metagame-discussion.3573990/page-11

Smogon has been increasingly retarded over the last one and a half generations. Nothing new here.

The entire "competitive" Pokemon is just one massive coinflip shitfest. I've stopped playing this shit seriously a long time ago and don't care what they do. If smogonfags want their game to be good, they should start by removing RNG altogether.

>>28614000
Also Haze or Whirlwind.

Or, hell, if this becomes a common pokemon, carry something with Destiny Knot and when you see the Scolipede come out, switch in the D.

>>28613875
>arguing over luck yet again
>crits are still in the game
I don't understand it. For what purpose, crit-based builds?

>>28614022
Try since Gen 2. From then until Gen 6 it's been Tyranitar Circlejerk Central. And even now things that rose to prominence and became centralized due to the Tyranitar meta (Stealth Rocks, for instance) are ingrained in the meta even though Tyranitar itself has somewhat fallen out of favor.

Every single ban in Smogon has been either because it was a direct counter to Tyranitar or because it was "too centralizing" ignoring the fact that EVERYONE ran a fucking Sand Stream team until Gen 5.

Smogonfags are the most hypocritical douches in the scene.

>>28614139
Tyranitar didn't have Sandstream until Gen 3.

>playing showdown on anything but randoms

>>28613875
>Attract

Okay, seriously. I know they argue about certain counters being too niche, but how hard is it to slap a Metagross on your team to basically stonewall a Scolipede, or any number of other legendaries that don't care?

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>>28613875
Yeah, I'm around the 1600s on the ladder and I just faced this team. It's honestly annoying as fuck, as once it gets to +1, it can click Protect and Substitute until it gets to +6, then can baton pass into something like Manaphy, which can basically take any hit, tail glow, and just win afterwards.

I'm on the Ban Baton Pass side, because I see baton pass as "uncompetitive" in a sense, as senseless stat passing takes no skill lol

>>28614175
Yeah but Gen 2 he was the premiere sweeper thanks to his huge stats and having the best mixed movepool. Gen 3 just solidified his popularity

Just ban scolipede

>>28614224
Smogon Pre-Gen 6
>Gender based attacks and skills are too useless due to the restrictive conditions required to utilize it
Smogon Gen 6
>wtf, I hate attract now

I never thought I'd see the day.

>>28614285
Nether does throwing down a bunch of hazards and make 85% of the Pokédex unusable but here we are

>or a straight-up ban of Scolipede.
This would solve everything.

Sure, Scolipede is not going to sweep teams by itself the same way Blaziken did, but as a support or "chain" Pokémon is strong enough.

Take Scolipede from the scene and the "perfect" chain is broken apart. Is not that hard.

>>28614322
Then people will use Ninjask instead, and basically the same thing will happen

>>28614363
Ninjask is way too frail for everything, and cannot even attempt to deal enough damage if it seems itself forced to do it.

>>28614363
Then maybe it's time to consider that it's not Baton Pass that's inheritly broken but the combination of Protect, Substitute, Baton Pass and Speed Boost.

>>28614363
Except Ninjask dies to a stiff breeze, so priority will fuck it right up.

>>28614415
Fucking this. Any team that isn't carrying priority should be carrying Whirlwind / Roar / Haze / Clear Smog for this exact reason. And even then, you should be carrying these for multiple other reasons anyways.

Guys, hey guys!
Klefki learns Psych Up and has Prankster

>>28613875
I played against the BP team with my meme team a few weeks ago.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-424089302

It seems really formulaic and something people can adapt around, like Mega Metagross.

For instance, default your mons to female or use genderless mons more. If anything, Female Attract punishes genies since they're all male which I approve of, since it clips the incentive to use them. As for BP in general, use Roar or Whirlwind more than Dragon Tail. And have something for Manaphy, like Unaware Clef or Roar Empoleon, rather than assuming you can beat it by outspeeding it with brute force.

>>28614510
I thought I was the only one that thought about psych up. Instead of baning more things like this, they should just let people invent counter strategies, else the metagame will end up getting stall and will always be the same shit.

>>28614139

Are you retarded? No like seriously. This can't be a serious post.

>>28613875
>If you're going to nerf everything until it's balanced, why have tiers
That's the most sensible thing I've heard about Smogon's tier system yet.

>>>>>>>>>Attract

Is Smogon seriously this retarded? God, Gen IV was the only time these fucks were useful for making a decent format.

>>28614606
yeah. It's like, I just feel like bans are very kneejerk. I mean, I can understand wanting to ban certain things that get too centralizing, but some stuff just needs some time to fluorish and will naturally die on its own

>>28614326
Yeah. As soon as you start discussing banning attract of all things, it's time to take a step back.

>>28613875
Oh boy. More absolutely retarded bans from Smogon.

They really need to redeem themselves during Gen 7 or I'm really done with the ruleset. It's been nothing but retarded kneejerk bans recently like M-Mawile and Shadow Tag bans.

>>28614764
why the fuck are they banning M-Mawile now?

>>28614588
Dude what is your aero holding

>>28614814
They already did a while ago.

>>28614832
AV

>>28614139
Wow the salt. Did Tyranitar steal your gf?
>implying you're not a kv

>>28614838

yeah but why?

>>28614863
huge power sucker punch.

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>>28613875
>Whirlwind
>Roar
>Haze
>Clear Smog
>Dragon Tail
>Unaware
Wow, look at all these Baton Pass counters that are already widely-used and / or have a wide range of useful applications! What a fucking joke Smogon is.

>>28613875
Why not ban Attract?

>>28613875
Why don't just they ban Scolipede instead of tip toeing around the problem with idiotic complex bans? Baton Pass teams weren't broken in gen 5 even though Magic Bounce Espeon and Smeargle were a thing. Scolipede on the other hand is everything Ninjask ever wanted to be, and it pops up literally every single time another Baton Pass related ban comes into play. Just get rid of the fucking bug and be done with it.

>>28614606
>>28614702
Precisely, that's the entire point of a self-sustaining meta. When a meta starts to form, you alter teams to adapt and overcome, then everyone will start to uses these new sets and you create new teams to counter THAT. There's a reason that VGC team used Pachirisu that one year, it found a niche that wasn't expected by the other players.

Only when a meta walls itself by having a "god" in the tier does it become stale because that god will always be a looming threat. This is when a ban is required.

However, it seems instead of evolving, they want to keep a status quo... they need to give it time to let the numbers come in to support these bans lol.

>>28614972
Not to mention the fact that there's a bunch of viable genderless pokemon like metagross and a bunch of legendaries.

>>28614972

In this order: Magic Bounce stops phazing, "I don't wanna put a niche move on my Pokemon because I'll lose to everything else :((((", Dragon Tail is pretty shit, and Unaware doesn't take away Stored Power boost.

>>28614992

I'd say it's because Smeargle, Venomoth and Combusken are just as bad, but they chose banning Shadow Tag over banning the two viable mons that had it, so...

>>28615025
Just saw this >>28614992. This seems to be a way better solution than doing some rediculous ban. Wasn't there a complex baton pass semi-recently? I thought this shit was why complex bans were discouraged.

>>28614510

You'd have to keep using it as Scolipede boosts, and there's not much Klefki can actually do with the stat boosts.

Smogon really only knows how to ban offensive mons. They have no idea how to handle support mon bannings.

>>28614139
Tyraniwho? Is that a NU Pokemon or something?

>>28614863
Too OP. Sucker Punch + Swords Dance + Huge Power + Base 105 ATK = NOT THIS THING AGAIN.

Eventualy they got tired of having to burn it and just said "let's ban it NO ONE WILL MISS IT AM I RIGHT?"

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-440123357

>>28615199
What about strategies to stall sucker punch PP, like pressure+protect or substitute or some shit, were they not viable?

I'm around 1700 on the ladder, and I am leaning more towards a ban. Even genderless or mons with oblivious are not "counters" as the problem is more based on the speed boost baton pass combo than attract. Attract is more of a backup plan to increase your odds of baton passing a sub. Once they get the baton pass off, you're as good as dead, there is very little that you can do to stop an SD mega heracross with +6 speed.

>>28615293
There were a million ways to counter M-Mawile, especially since M-Mawile is predictable as fuck.

What that Anon said with the "let's ban it NO ONE WILL MISS IT AM I RIGHT?" is basically the entire reasoning for why M-Mawile was banned.
People didn't like it, so they banned it.

>>28613942
>No fun allowed
But anon, that's exactly what the person using the attract team is doing to their opponent.

Talonflame + Electric type/Kyu-B shits on this team

Don't really give a shit about smogon, but why not just ban Attract if it "makes the game based on luck, not skill" like they do with evasion boosting moves?

>>28614972
>What is priority
>What is speed
Unaware's the only one that's really a hard counter and there are only 2 usable pokemon with it.

>>28615328
This. Pokemon that are OP that people "like" don't get banned, pokemon that are OP that people don't like don't.

>>28614000
Even that's not necessary. Are they not aware that they can see Scolipede's gender in team preview? Unless they're running six waifumons there's a pretty easy way to shut that down.

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>>28613942
Forget about Scald, let's talk about this thing. Why is this less of a problem than Attract?

Why shouldn't SR be banned again?

>>28615531
this
>>28615540
because spinners and defoggers are a thing and they are viable

>>28615317
It really is a weird predicament, you have a few options on what to do with this ban, but you have to keep the consequences on what they will lead to in mind. Like Speed Boost in general was benign enough, and Baton Pass requires setting up. But setting up the a Baton Pass with as little moves as possible is becoming easier and easier which seems to be the biggest issue. This requires you to remove the issue within 3 turns or it's over. If you're not on the right pokemon when the baton passer was called out, that's already 1 turn gone.

Gen 6 truly is the "Slipper Slope" era.

>>28615328
>There were a million ways to counter M-Mawile, especially since M-Mawile is predictable as fuck.

LOL if you actually think this. It only had 1 counter in the game. Skarm gets murdered, Heatran gets murdered, Ferrothorn gets murdered, defensive Lando-T can't heal off the big damage it takes every time and gets bopped by Ice Punch (and if Mawile has Hyper Cutter, Play Rough even 2HKOs), Gliscor's already taking over half from Play Rough, etc.

So what would Smogon do if game freak made a pokémon with the abilities snow cloak, sand veil, and moody?

>>28613875
>attract scolipede

did the donut image cause this?

>>28615540
If I recall, they tested without it and it was all Focus Sash and Multi scale dragonites.

I've also heard that it helps prevent games from dragging out with people switching since it will wear things down.

>>28614588
were you dropped on your head as a child?

>>28615615
Prevent Moody from being used on it.

You know Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are allowed, right?

>>28615611
Sucker Punch can't 1HKO for shit and a number of Pokemon can 1HKO M-Mawile.

Also, burn.

>>28615656
I have a different type of response depending on if you're from the thread I think you're from.

Otherwise, why?

>>28615702
uugh

>>28615615
Nothing because Snow Cloak and Sand Veil aren't even banned anymore. Endless weather isn't a thing anymore and the Evasion Clause only ever covered Double Team and Minimize.

>>28614019
I hate how smogonshitters refer to pokemon as things as if they are some objects that is nothing more than a ball of stat.

>>28615686
>Sucker Punch can't 1HKO for shit and a number of Pokemon can 1HKO M-Mawile.

Regarding Sucker Punch, ignore how the people before centered on that as the main reason since that was only a fraction of the problem.

Regarding Pokemon 1HKOing it, you know the difference between a check and a counter, right? Checks don't come in on the Pokemon they're supposed to scare out. A Heatran can scare Mega Mawile out, but you're not coming in on a Focus Punch. Sub Punch sets obliterated most of its Steel answers.

>>28615540

Game Freak has designed too many Pokemon around it now.

You guys hate Talonflame now? Imagine if it took no entry hazard damge.

>>28615808
>Regarding Sucker Punch, ignore how the people before centered on that as the main reason since that was only a fraction of the problem.
M-Mawile is trash without Sucker Punch. It just becomes a special wall with shitty offensive typing and no recovery.

>it's the checks vs. counter semantics argument again

>>28615749
Ok either sui or nurusu....?

>>28615808
God Sub Focus Punch Mawile was so good

>>28615863

Mach Punch Medicham when

>>28615863
>M-Mawile is trash without Sucker Punch. It just becomes a special wall with shitty offensive typing and no recovery.

How deluded can you be? Have you any idea how hard it hits? How are you planning on switching things into it if it nukes whatever it hits? It's like Mega Medicham in a world where Ghost doesn't exist.

>>it's the checks vs. counter semantics argument again
By saying that, are you somehow waving away the fact that you have to switch something that can beat it into Mega Mawile's attack? SD Sucker Punch was the earliest incarnation of Mega Mawile, and people stopped running it when they realized coverage helped destroy the traditional answers like Skarm since it has the power to actually break them.

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honestly i am very surprised that moves like twave and confuse ray haven't been banned yet with how smogon has been this gen

you just have to wonder what stupid idea will they come up with next

>b-but if my chansey is attracted then how will it use toxic and softboiled?

>>28616032
Chansey is always female.

>>28615990
Who said you're switching anything in on M-Mawile? Why would you switch anything in on M-Mawile? There's no reason to ever switch in on M-Mawile.

This is the entire basis of your argument.

>>28616044
if only scolipede could be either male or female...

>>28616067
The Scolipede used is always female...

>>28616028
At this point I'm still waiting them to acknowledge Acupressure Drapion. With the right scenario that thing is the most evil thing in existence, right next to Moody.

just ban scolipede already jesus fuck

>>28613875
Why they don't just ban everything but Talonflame?

>>28614000
Nice trips,
but what does the standard smogon player do when they face Scolipede?
They click Stealth Rock.

>>28616050
And hence it got banned.

>>28616110
Ebin xd

>>28616122
What? What are you even talking about?

M-Mawile wasn't and never will be a problem. The only time M-Mawile is ever an issue is if you're an idiot who lets M-Mawile set up.

>>28613875
So Smogon is apparently stupid enough to try to ban/nerf a c+ ranked pokemon. The fuxk?

>>28616158
Unless it's running a full offense moveset and just sucker punch's you.

Just ban Speed Boost desu

>>28616081
That makes it even easier to counter. Why not just make your Talonflame a girl?

>>28616081
and people can start mixing it up with a male scoli to catch people trying to counter it with a grill only team

>>28616200
Sucker Punch isn't even that strong on M-Mawile. Stop this stupid garbage. You're not 1HKOing an entire team with M-Mawile without set up.

>>28616158
It's like you ignored everything I said prior explaining how it was a problem. If you're just going to insist it's not no matter how much explanation is offered then there's no point discussing it with you.

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>>28616239
>smogon
>mixing it up

>>28616091
Showdown's April Fools Drapion sprite has a bunch of +6 scribbled on it so I'm pretty sure they know about it.
The difference with Moody is it has to waste turns in order to get the boosts, two of those types of boosts are useless (Acc, Spatk), one of them should only be rolled once (speed) and the defenses are 50/50. The only reason why he works is because showderp uses him against negative elo shitters.

>>28616158
How's that low ELO life treating you, champ

Smogon always gets even more retarded with bans around the end of a gen. If I recall, mence got banned just before gen 5 came out. I guess running perish song or roar/whirlwind on one pokemon is just to unviable, gotta ban stuff. I get that smogon really wants pokemon to be chess, but it isn't and they can't make it, 6v6 Pokemon isn't going to be balanced. And trying to make it balanced will just result in a stagnant meta that is still not balanced. The way the cart does things, you take 6 but you pick 3, makes for a better meta. But even that comes down to at least some luck/chance. If you don't like chance being part of the game, why on earth would you play Pokemon?

>>28616229
>>28616239
Yeah that's what I've been saying. I'm against the ban.

However, some mons are male-only, like the genies and Latios, so it still has some sway.

>>28616275
>It's like you ignored everything I said prior explaining how it was a problem.
Except I didn't. Everything you explained requires a set up or is just wrong.
How does M-Mawile stop a Whirlwind Skarmory without set up? Ice Punch doesn't 1HKO even with full attack EVs.

You're the problem with Smogon. Seriously.

>>28616288
(You)

>>28613875
>Attract Scolipede
what is this new meta trickery

>>28616326

>It all comes back to genies

>>28616326
>However, some mons are male-only, like the genies
BARNEY MY PEBBLES

>>28616327
Man, you're dense.

>252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 176-208 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

>252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 175-207 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also,
>Everything you explained requires a set up or is just wrong.
No, it requires prediction, which is always in the abuser's favor. Or even no prediction sometimes, since Play Rough and Iron Head are backed by Huge Power.

>>28616415
>not even a 100% chance to 2HKO Skarmory
>Skarmory
>The stallmon with Roost

Are you fucking serious right now?

>Play Rough and Iron Head
>a threat
>on a 50 base speed Pokemon
okay.jpg

>>28616470
Do you even play this game or are you just shitposting for the sake of arguing?

The significance of a 2HKO is you hit it once on the switch-in and again the next turn so it faints. If your complaint is over Roost vs. Base 50 Speed, Mega Mawile can speed creep it just like Belly Drum Azumarill speed creeps Skarmory right now despite having Base 50 Speed. Or if Sub Punch, you don't even need to speed creep it since Roost isn't doing shit.

>>28616542
Unless they somehow predict you switching into your Skarmory and hit you with either of those moves you can Whirlwind.

The rest of your post is talking about set ups, Sub Punch.
We're also talking about switch-ins again, which is hilarious. You're also ignoring Heatran with Roar, or anything else with Roar really, or anything with Dragontail being able to push M-Mawile out and give you a free switch in potentially.

>>28616654
>Dragontail
>Against a fairy type

>>28616698
Missing the point.

>>28616654
>my opponent predicted my switch and won because of it
>better ban it

>>28615328
Probably the most idiotic argument I've heard in a while. You don't straight up ban shit, you need to evolve and find counters, everything has potential to make or break something. Hell, Tangrowth was considered shit not long ago and look where he's sitting now. A healthy meta is not made from bans, but coming up with solutions.

>>28613875
Honestly this is just as ridiculous as the complex ban that happened with Baton Pass. Why not straight up ban Batton Pass ON Scolipede or you know, ban that set ? Like don't let it run Substitute or such.

>>28616654
>Unless they somehow predict you switching into your Skarmory and hit you with either of those moves you can Whirlwind.

Well guess what? That's what happens. When your STABs are resisted by Fire and Steel, it's easy to predict the Steel being switched into it. Especially with Huge Power causing you to essentially lose the mon if you don't switch into a resist.

I hope you realize Focus Punch hits before Roar and Whirlwind...

>Dragon Tail
So it's bait?

>>28616799
Honestly, I'd prefer that it just be left as is, but if you absolutely must ban something, SubProtect makes the most sense to me.

>>28616826
>Well guess what? That's what happens.
Oh no! The horror! Never again should we allow a Pokemon to kill another Pokemon because the player predicted a switch-in!

>When your STABs are resisted by Fire and Steel
And when you keep talking about things like using Focus Punch suddenly switching in with a Ghost type with Will-O-Wisp because anything viable check to Mawile.

>I hope you realize Focus Punch hits before Roar and Whirlwind...
Your point?

>So it's bait?
No. I was just thinking of common moves that force switch out and I made a small mistake.
This is always my favourite part of 4chan. The part where they like to ignore everything else because of a typo/mistake and call it "bait."

>>28616828
Agreed. I've used Scolipede and I know how much of a powerfull mon it can be. But seriously, there can be counters for situations like this. Metagross is a good example, it can use Zen Headbut for SE damage and if its a Sash set, use Bullet Punch for a quick kill and prevent the pass and pit pressure on the team. Or a priority user. I do hope now Lugarugan Day turns out good enough for OU cause this thing could help with this problem.

Also, what's up with the Shadow Tag ban ?

>>28616922
Shadow Tag ban has been a thing since Gen 3 Wobuffet.

but i like baton pass scolipede

>>28616922
>Also, what's up with the Shadow Tag ban ?

People hated it, a controversy happened and then it got banned alongside Gengar-Mega.

>>28616903
>Oh no! The horror! Never again should we allow a Pokemon to kill another Pokemon because the player predicted a switch-in!
Not when it can kill every Pokemon allowed barring 1.

>And when you keep talking about things like using Focus Punch suddenly switching in with a Ghost type with Will-O-Wisp because anything viable check to Mawile.
Ghosts are all susceptible to Pursuit trapping barring the ones weak to Play Rough.

>Your point?
That you're dumb for talking about Roar/Whirlwind at all as a stop since they have negative priority.

And regarding the last point, see above why talking about moves that force switch-outs is dumb to begin with.

>The part where they like to ignore everything else because of a typo/mistake and call it "bait."
Except I addressed everything else you said separately from your 'mistake', so no clue what the fuck you're talking about regarding ignoring. If you want to play dumbass, do it elsewhere.

>>28616988
No. It hasn't.

>>28616415
Focus Punch/Thunder Punch/Substitute/Sucker Punch is the best Mawile set

Anyone has replays? I wanna laugh a little with these attract shenanigans

>>28617110
Maybe if you're a dumbass who doesn't believe in STAB where it's wanted.

>>28617070
>Not when it can kill every Pokemon allowed barring 1.
What the fuck are you talking about? M-Mawile ends up predicting your switch-in to stop it. You now get a free switch-in.
You know what you do? You switch-in a Pokemon with Will-O-Wisp, or less ideally Scald, and M-Mawile is stopped.

>Ghosts are all susceptible to Pursuit trapping
What does this have to do with switching a Ghost type into M-Mawile?

>That you're dumb for talking about Roar/Whirlwind at all as a stop since they have negative priority.
Except I'm not. You're not going to get a KO with M-Mawile on Skarmory unless you hit with either of those two moves when it switches in. Anything else will leave it in a position to survive and Whirlwind.

>>28614130
>thinking game freak will change game mechanics based on competitive desires

>>28613875
Is this a new forced smogon maymay?
The smogon community hasn't been relevant since the last days of gen 5 when they have started to fuck up their own meta, gen 6 illogical bans, double standards, rigged polls and even more retarded bans and suspects like these only gave it the coup de grace.
There is no way they can restore their respectability and popularity yet alone some kind of relevance they used to have until early gen 5.

Just let them die already, and move these meme threads into their own forums. Do not advertise this garbage in here.

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>>28617048
Again, not licking =/= not a reason to ban it. Like how guilable are you to let yourself be trapped by a Gengar ? Gotithele I understand since its on spot, but you can at least see in the preview that a Mega Gengar could be on the team if there's no blatant Mega like Charizard or Gallade or Medicham. Like Talonflame is a thing, it doesnt fear Will-o-wisp and it can kill it before it gets a Destiny Bond cause priority. And isn't Specially Defensive Talon a populat set as of late ?

>>28614322
You are what's wrong with smogon

>>28614814
M Mawile has been banned since before ORAS

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>>28615488
>unless they're running six waifumons

>>28614322
kill you are self

>>28617185
>What the fuck are you talking about? M-Mawile ends up predicting your switch-in to stop it. You now get a free switch-in.
Congratulations, you learned what a check is. Now keep in mind, switching goes both ways, so since other Pokemon have counters, you can maneuver yourself to get Mega Mawile in on something that doesn't threaten it, and ideally you get another kill. Rinse and repeat. People dealt with it before its ban by trying to keep it out as much as possible, and hoping to scout its moveset without losing something in the process.

In case this hasn't registered in your mind yet, no one is talking about sweeping with it outside of Sucker Punch sets. So you can scare it out, but you lose a mon each time you let it come in.

>What does this have to do with switching a Ghost type into M-Mawile?
Do you want me to spoonfeed you beyond how much I'm already doing? If you decide to run something like a Chandelure when they have a dual STAB Sub Punch set, the Mawile user will virtually 100% have a Pursuit trapper to invalidate Chandelure.

>Except I'm not. You're not going to get a KO with M-Mawile on Skarmory unless you hit with either of those two moves when it switches in. Anything else will leave it in a position to survive and Whirlwind.
And do you not realize how much of a poor position the defender is left in? The burden is on them to outplay every single time, while Mega Mawile is just 1 slot of 6 you're accounting for.

Honestly if you are playing this bullshit instead of VGC you should probably just kill yourself

SLIPPERY

>>28615442
How is whirlwind/roar not a hard counter to any baton pass setup? Are you telling me that you dont have time to switch and roar before they can setup, sub, and pass?

SLOPE

>>28615127
Yes, they banned having more than one baton pass user per team, so you basically can't use setup chains

>>28617407
It's only a soft answer since if they Pass into Espeon, Roar/Whirlwind gets bounced. It's still kind of an out since you're forcing them into Espeon, but then your goal becomes stopping CM Stored Power Espeon (with Dazzling Gleam). So as long as you're equipped for that too you should be in an alright position.

>>28617349
>So you can scare it out, but you lose a mon each time you let it come in.
>but you lose a mon each time you let it come in.
Only. If. They. Make. The. Prediction.

We're just arguing in circles here, honestly.

>>28617387
I know this is just bait, but you can't tell me you seriously enjoy VGC16.

>>28617510
>Only. If. They. Make. The. Prediction.

>We're just arguing in circles here, honestly.

Maybe in your mind, since it's coming across as though you don't understand how switching works.

>Mega Mawile vs. standard Latias
>Latias can't do shit to Mawile, have Skarmory alone
>Switch to the thing that can attempt to take the hit since you don't know the Mawile set

Is it that hard to comprehend?

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I'd like to see even just one (1) high ladder replay where a guy uses this strategy to completely destroy a competent player with a well-built team. And to be perfectly honest I'd like to see multiple replays like that because otherwise there's no reason for a ban, but even just one is fine.

I'm waiting

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>>28613875

Shit's hilarious,
is this another absolutely incredible coincidence case of smogon's personality or its friend gets salty at some meme strategy and loses his mind and ends with the opening of a new unrealistic suspect like the scald one in uu?

I have a feel if showderp bullies, sweeps and pp stalls some stall teams with a Block / Mean Look Rest set up strategy or a legit Trap + Pressure / Spite / Rest PP stall to force Struggle they will bring up a manual set up trapping suspect and PP trapper stall too just because it's a rare strategy and may turn to be extremely viable against standard copypasta teams.

>>28617665
Smogon doesn't even need reasons like this to ban anymore.
There have been a number of things banned recently that never saw any significant use.

>>28617665
https://youtu.be/SpBtAKMQaGA?t=31m1s

There's a time I put it to so you can jump right to the battle, so don't just embed.

>>28617665
https://youtu.be/5uUHxtys-Uc?t=29m41s

Another one. This time, he plays 2 Baton Pass teams in a row.

So if Smogon hates "muh 50/50" so much why wasn't Attract banned a long time ago?

So what I've learned is that if you come up with a unique viable strategy and you play against a mod you should just let them win or else you'll hurt their feelings and they'll ban it.

>>28615531
Especially in doubles.

>>28617765
>>28618012
>check out Thunderblunder's recent videos
>literally talking about rigging bans in a recent video
Yeah. Why do people take Smogon seriously again?

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Ahem

>>28618352
b-but that's not a v-viable set!

>Problem is obviously with Speed Boost
>"Ban Baton Pass"
>"Ban Attract"
Why the fuck are Smogonites like this? If you're going to ban a strategy at least ban the correct
thing instead of skirting around the issue.

>>28613875
Nice story people, i still enjoy my baton pass team and don't play on showdown, enjoy your meaningless dialogue on an unofficial meta that will lead nowhere.

>>28618352
What site is that

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Smogon has no idea what they're doing.

>>28618663
Their opinion of "healthy competitive environment" is just "stale boring constant environment". They are afraid of change, of ideas and anything that can disturb their "ideal environment".

Smogon sucks. Simple.

>>28618663
You realize they're talking about Smogon Doubles and not VGC, right?

>>28618237
which video is this? figured it's the oras and xy analysis but i'd hate to be wrong and waste 40 minutes

>>28618972
It is. It's during the Aegislash ban part of the video.

>>28615792
Pokemon are not your friends, they don't actually exist.

>>28619099
>I play Pokemon for the (((((competitive))))) RNG game

>>28614197
Team building is half the fun.

I'd be fine with SR if there were different type versions that had the same damage dealt.

>>28618663
I may not know all the details of the format, but isn't the 'answer' to follow me & setup to use moves that hit both enemies, or set up your own stuff at the same time?

>>28617239
>thinking that anon was talking about Game Freak and not Smogon

>>28613875
How to counter attract Scolipede w/ baton pass
>muh rocks
>muh spikes
There you go, Smogonfags who decided to visit here for advice

>>28618599
Serenity, just google Moveset calculator and you'll find it

>>28619301
Serebii* goddammit

>>28619301
>>28619330
Thx m8

>>28614130
Critical builds only work on Pokemon with Focus Energy. That plus a razor claw/scope lens gives you guaranteed critical hits. I think it's pretty good on sniper users or Leaf Storm/Overheat/Draco Meteor spammers

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>X is broken when used by Scolipede
>Y is broken when used by Scolipede
>Z is broken when used by Scolipede
>lets ban X, Y, and Z

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>>28615210
Holy shit it's infinite

>tfw my strategy might be banned
they should really git gud

>>28614353

If all generation 7 was remove stealth rock, I would be happy

>>28618012
>recognize you have a huge problem with manaphy
>run nothing to deal with it
okay

>>28619953
He used Lati to counter it, since Ice Beam does under 50 or it comes in for free on a Tail Glow, with Draco hitting hard enough to deal with it.

But the problem becomes that BP lets the slower big hitters outspeed. He would have probably lost to M-Hera the second game without Explosion.

Why not just ban fucking attract? It's a completely random move in the context of showdown anyways since 99% of people have random genders set.

>>28616276
<shitting on muh balanced rules
<implying broken battles can be enjoyed

REEEEEEE NORMAL FAGS LEAVEEEE

>>28617255
if people don't follow smogon, what agreed upon rules and tiers are there?

>>28617387
What if I don't like doubles?

>>28613875
THE CITY OF SMOGON

>>28614326
Clearly they are preparing for the UB02 Beauty Infatuation Metagame

I love it when Smogon gets confused as fuck. One day they'll collapse and then maybe we'll get a good Singles format in

I like how Smogon goes to any length to ban anything except for stealth rock which is somehow not unhealthy at all

>>28618972

Basically he brags about him and other members of his goon squad going around and making people change their votes on Aegislash because apparently it touched Blunder's penis inappropriately.

>>28621164
>B-but you have those two perfectly viable moves to handle stealth rock. Baton pass on the other hand is uncounterable, because...
Smogon 101

>>28620827

Name a good singles 6v6 format that doesn't ban Mega Fug.

>>28620827
UB02 won't be in competitive since it's not a Pokemon.

>>28615416
Attract is literally just a shittier paralyze. The actual problem is Batton Pass again. Why they try so hard to make complex bans around it when they didn't even bat an eyelid about banning swagger as a whole leaves me still confused though.

>>28621647
What's wrong with Swagger, anyway?

>>28621695
Klefki was an annoying rng abuser with it so they banned it. Meanwhile Togekiss/Jirachi.

>>28621695
Nothing really, but actual good Prankster users like Klefki appeared and it went rampant on the upper ladder so they banned it as a whole because "lol no complex bans".

>>28621695
Chance of gaining a free turn for just outspeeding or having priority on it.

It's a TM and nearly all pokemon learn it, honestly it was kind of stupid how easy it was to win with this due to a one turn free switch in.

>M-Mawile is not OP
Next you'll be saying M-Lucario and M-Kangaskhan are not OP.

>>28621808
It was never really a problem before Klefki came around though because it's such a gimmicky russian roulette thing, but I guess with Klefki, making it appear everywhere, they finally had an excuse to ban another evil luck based move.

>>28613875
only clauses should be sleep, evasion and species. anything else is gay

>>28620827
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Pokemon+battle+simulators
There you go senpai.

I'm always amazed how many people bitch about "Muh Smogon is so mean!!!1!!1!!!" despite probably neither playing on Showdown nor caring for competitive play in general. There are loads of other options if you don't like Smogon tiers. Even on showdown, you can just play AG or Other Metagames.
>inb4 le smogondrone

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>>28622255
>he doesn't know that defensive Volcarona counters Mega Lucario and Slurpuff's a total stop to Mega Mom

>>28613875
a solution would be stop using smogon

>>28615317
what idiot lets it get to + 6 speed , oh wait I forgot this is smogon were talking about, prioritizing a threat isn't something they understand

>>28618799
I know.
That doesn't change shit.

>>28618425
Because there are speed boosters that aren't a problem.

>>28621763
The no complex ban thing is what causes a lot of these bullshit bans, really.

Like, banning Blaziken as a whole when it's only Speed Boost that's the problem,

Couldn't Chandelure be a counter to this? Just calm mind boost while they stall for speed boost and flamethrower when they pass for an easy KO on a Heracross as one anon mentioned and one energy ball can drop a Manager as another said.

>>28624326
Manaphy* fuck it happened again

>>28624326
There are a lot of potential counters, the problem is that requires having a Pokemon on your team designed to counter this strategy and that's bad, even though needing a spinner or defogger for entry hazards is a-ok

>>28624291
>Blaziken, banned to Ubers for not being a shitmon with free speed boosts
>Scolipede, SubProtect Baton Pass bullshit
>Ninjask, SubProtect Baton Pass bullshit
I give you that there are Speed Boosters who aren't problematic though. But then again, there are also Baton Passers who also aren't problematic.

>>28624619
It's almost like certain movesets should be banned and not entire moves, Pokemon, or abilities.

>>28622605
Whenever I see this thing I get to laugh for about 3 minutes, it never gets old, Verlsify stupidity knows no boundaries.

Can someone start up a new less shit tiered meta?

I liked smogon until Gen 6 but now they're just retarded.

>>28619502

All they have to do is ban Pass + Speed Boost

The only Pokemon that gets irreparably fucked by this is Ninjask, but the current restrictions on BP make it a shitmon regardless.

Any meta for any game is always gonna be changing, trying to "stabilize" it is never gonna work. Iirc there was a character in lol that looked cool, but was complete shit. Until someone started using him correctly. And then he was top tier, and even after numerous needs he still sees top usage. Point is banning stuff just creates bad meta.

>>28624326

Smogon's logic is that if you need to run a Pokemon as a specific counter to a strategy or else lose, it's not balanced.

I never understood this myself. People get c teamed all the time.

>>28624938
What the fuck does banning stuff have anything to do with what you just said?
Besides, what else can they do? They aren't actually in charge of the game so they can't actually nerf anything, only remove remove or attempt to restrict the problem.

Is the idea of a level based meta viable?
As in, rather than banning pokemon into tiers, you penalize better ones by forcing them to be lower levels.

Obviously this doesn't work in-game, but in a simulator there's no reason why you can't have level 1 M-Rayquazas.

>>28624863
How would you feel about a Meta with:

-all legendaries banned. I don't care if it's Mega Rayquaza or Filters, it's not allowed. Any non-breedable one-of-a-kind Pokemon is not allowed
-Stealth Rock banned. Spikes and Toxic Spikes still allowed due to a smaller learn pool.
-No OHKO moves allowed
-Standard rules like Item clause, sleep clause, Explosion resulting in a tie counts as a loss for the user, etc.
-Season-based format to where necessary bans are done every, say, 4 months, to allow for potential new setups to rise and have counters developed organically

I think most of the issues in the current Smogon meta are from either legendaries, Stealth Rock, or refusal to allow organic testing of new tech.

>>28624649
I completely agree on that front. But this is Smogon we're talking about so they'll never even consider banning Speed Boost + Baton Pass. I'm surprised they have let Baton Pass get this way, considering what they did to Swagger.

>>28625091
I dunno about banning legends. But then again, that's because I like running Mega Diancie with other pokemon I like without having to deal with shit like primals.

>>28625091

You managed to create an even more mediocre VGC, enjoy your mega Salamence cores.

>>28625129
>It was okay to ban Swift Swim and Drought on one team once upon a time but banning speed boost and baton pass on one Pokemon is too much

This shit is why Smogon is fucking retarded.

>>28625060
I actually saw that suggestion once, though that was more an idea for a different mode that used levels to 'equalize' base stats. Basically it worked out that Sunkern would be level 100, Arceus would be around 26 or so, and everything would fall in between to effectively be even, which means typing and movepool are the only things that really matter.

>>28625149
>Season based format

At worst you'd get Mega Salamence core for the first 4 months before it's unanimously voted out

>>28625198
This honestly seems like it would be kind of fucked since you couldn't really have a defensive strategy. Plus Eviolite would run the show

>>28625091
I'd say to ban Megas as well as legends, if only because some of them are on that same level.

Even that would likely result in mostly pseudolegendaries and dragon spam though.

>>28613875
holy fuck why cant they just run Haze or Prankster Taunt

>>28625226
>couldn't really have a defensive strategy
>Eviolite would run the show
Getting mixed messages here

>>28625226
Well, it's the sort of format that would probably ban Eviolite, since the entire point is that the mid stages now have the same effective BST as the higher level forms. I'd imagine set-damage moves or things like endevour would also need to go.

I don't see why defense couldn't work though. Defensive mons would still have good defensive stats and movepools. It's just that rather than Skarmory completely laughing at a Charmander, the Charmander is on par with a Charizard instead.

>>28614000

Trips confirm smogon are morons

>>28625236
Yeah a ban on Megas would probably be a possibility, but I just feel like too much stuff gets banned in Smogon before it earns it, and that just doesn't sit well with me.

Yeah that clashes with a wholesale legendary ban but it's still just my opinion.

>>28615531

Earthquake is extremely common

Also steel doesn't resist dark anymore

>>28625199
Mega Gengar, mega Khangaskan, Snipe them without shadow tag Greninja, Godlike pivot Aeigislash, FUNBRO on a volt turn Core.

Batton pass chains, Gothitrap BP, Shellpash/Geomancy Moody Smeargle on a freaking Gothitrap BP core.

Dude, I'm not even trying to break the game, in cartridge I had a 132 win streak against actual competent players with gothitrap BP before I actually lost with someone using shed shell Manaphy.


Smogon is at worst a necessary evil dude.

Place your bets on what Gen 7 abilities will Smogon get asspergers about

>>28625307
I'd say to start with just a ban of box legendaries, anything like mewtwo that's above 600. That should get out the worst of it to start, though it'll probably need more bans of the worst megas after 4 months

>>28625091
Against. I like legends and many are shittier than non legends.

>>28625357
If Stakeout is on anything good, they'll flip their shit

>>28625330
Maybe once upon a time they were a necessary evil but now they just choke the life out of team setups before they can even get a chance to be considered OP, all while still allowing entry hazards to run rampant as if they're not centralizing in the meta.

>>28625357
I honestly anticipate Pyukumuku getting banned because a single prediction shuts down a setup sweep.

>>28625357
Everything.

>>28618663
>buaaa I don't like X move!
>ban it ;_;
really?

>>28625389

Gumshoos getting double damage on ANY move against a switched in Pokemon could get banned depending on his moveset

Keep in mind he also gets Strong Jaw, meaning he's getting all the bite and fang moves

>>28625429
It's got pretty shit HP though doesn't it?

>>28625357
Innards Out since it kills sweeps

>>28625400
Oh boy, tell me one set up or core that didn't deserve their ban, are you seriously always switch out vs a slowbro out if fear of it being a FUNBRO.

Are you seriously going to carry shed shell Chansey, Manaphy and Kyurem B so Gothitrap doesn't stop you.

Are you going to tell me that you will always use mega voir+mega Alakazam to threathen 3 man BP or BP chains?

The game is broken as fuck on its own, pretending you aren't smogon, but then banning stuff just because you think they are broken is just as stupid as saying that mega Salamence shouldn't be banned due to Porygon 2 existence.

Seriously, what fun archetypes, using Greninja and pivot Aegislash on the same team or a legitimate team?

>>28625400
Until we get another hazard that can hit everything like SR does, it's a must.

If you want the centralization of Rocks to go, a centralization of Sashes and Dragonite will rise, and games will take longer than usual because of the missing timer Rocks would have put on turns composed of pure switching.

>>28625502
It could be anywhere from 55 to 100 HP, but from what I've heard 80-100 seems more likely considering Nintendo probably doesn't max EVs and IVs for trailers.

>>28625473
Unless its stats are well placed, I'm not really sure how far it'll go.

>>28625527
Funbro was only a problem for things that couldn't kill Slowbro anyway

>>28625357

Bruxish destroying priority moves will depend on it's own stats

As well as if it gets it's own priority moves

>>28625553
THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS.

Yes banning rocks just fucking makes games longer, banning rocks making sweepers and wallbreakers less effective.

It only makes Sashes more powerful and promotes the abuse of multiscale.

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COMPETITIVE FAGS LOL

>>28625619

Do no one should ever use bulky pokemons, no one should ever use pokemon that can't 3hko slowbro.

You hear me fellows! We are all HO now!

>>28625656
I think funbro needs leppa so...

>>28625198
>>28625226
My idea would be more based on overall use/usefulness than just raw stats.
E.G. The 8 most used are level 1, the next 8 are level 2.

Obviously it wouldn't be quite that simple, but you get the idea.

>>28625527
>Are you seriously going to carry shed shell Chansey, Manaphy and Kyurem B so Gothitrap doesn't stop you.

So preparation is a bad thing?

>>28625656
It needs Leppa, so it'd be useless

>>28625553
Then why not ban focus sash? I mean what really uses it besides FEAR anyway?

>>28625626
What priority will it really stop anyways? I mean, I know it means that the attack won't be used, but it seems like it's way better for doubles than singles. Bisharp can just use Knock Off, Scizor can U-Turn or Bug Bite, Medicham can Thunderpunch, and so on and so on.

>>28625687
It means that yes, you should always switch if you can't 3hko Slowbro. What the fuck are you keeping such a mon in on it for anyway? If your team has nothing that can 3hko Slowbro, you deserve it regardless

>>28625698
>>28625716
Yes, I completely forgot how Funbro worked, my bad.

>>28625713
Over preparation for one thing is bad, specially when you must sacrifice the role of a pokemon for it.

Shed shell blissey instead of lefties, tell me how is that healthy at all, shed shell wallbreakers missing their 2hkos because of no lo or Choice items.

Are you even thinking straight dude? Gothitrap is so godlike because it locks you in a move and PP stalls you or forces you to lose the 2hko threshold thus making stall better.

Also the idiot promoting this is trying to ban SR... Thus making games longer.

>>28625711
How about a ratio system? Like you get a certain amount of points, and different Pokemon take more points depending on their usefulness, etc. For instance let's say you get 18 points total, but someone like M-Salamence costs 8 points so all your other Pokemon will be 2-pointers, or you plan on having under 6 Pokemon.

>>28613875

If a pokemons only ablity is moody is it banned in all tiers?

>>28625801
>Shed shell blissey instead of lefties, tell me how is that healthy at all

Health is subjective, I could argue that Rocky Helmet being shoved on every mon to curb U-Turn spam is unhealthy

>>28625775
Do you don't status or taunt him to out recover him, you don't ruin a double switch by staying...

Are you thinking properly? You don't need to 2hko everything, even with Regenerator residual damage and taunt can put a dent to slowbro pivot abilities, a well timed status can also ruin his momentum.

FUNBRO feeds of this and the fact you are only thinking of a 2hko scenario instead of forcing it to chose vs status, scald or self buffs is baffling on its own.

>>28625593
>420 bp tox orb facades
>252+ Atk Abomasnow Facade (280 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 517-609 (80.5 - 94.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
thats with 90 base attack
seems like it wont matter all that much unless it has like ledian stats
the thing can basically fire off an explosion every time you switch, even at that low base atk thats enough to flat murder anything that thinks it can come in to take the hit
as a rule anything offering double damage is gonna be obscenely good, it doesnt matter how shitmon the thing getting it is

>>28625808
I swear there was a battle simulator with a format similar to this a few years ago. I haven't heard much of it since then so I can only assume it wasn't very successful.

>>28625845
Most likely, though all Pokemon with the ability Moody have it as their HA.

>>28625871
It being a hidden ability didn't stop Blaze Blaziken from getting the boot along with Speed Boost Blaziken

I can't see that far past a SR ban and a Sash ban, but I assume what'll happen is Flying types and Levitate mons start getting banned because of all the freedom they get, like Charizard and Mega Pinsir and of course Dragonite, especially with the lack of Sashes to try and dilute sweep opportunities. Talonflame and Volcarona probably too. So it's really just a road that leads to more bans and creates un-grounded centralization.

>>28625749
>>28625936

>>28625868
It needs to be able to scare off things in the first place. If it has the typical first normal type stats, I don't see it being very good. It's not as if it's Diggersby that gets double damage forever.

>>28625936
I'd be inclined to agree if rock moves still weren't super prevalent. We'd just see a rise in the use of Stone Edge.

So following Anon format we have a.

SR ban.

Endless clause ban.

All legends bar phione ban.

Several Megas banned.

You know Anon, I'm staying on Smogon for the time being.

>>28625808
I'm not super keen on assigning point values to pokemon, it seems like a bit of an administrative hassle. I mean, it's possible, but you're talking of assigning point values to ~800 monsters, more when SM drop.

I thought levels would be a good system since something being a little too strong means we could nudge it down a little, something being a little too weak means we nudge it up a little, levels make things easier to fine tune, and any changes to the meta would be slow and evolve over time.

I really wish stealth rock did neutral damage regardless of types. Taking 50% damage on switch in is just too much.

>>28626052
I think it's alright that it does more damage to fliers purely because they don't get hit with Sticky Web, Toxic Spikes or Spikes. Still kinda sucks that non-fliers can potentially get hit with the 4x rocks weakness on top of all that other stuff though.

>>28626052
I guess it is a necessary evil if freaking Charizard can't switch in as it pleases and then go mega from full or you put a full stop to flyers offensive abilities along Smogonbird.

Also fuck focus sash and multiscale.

>>28626038
Start off by ratio tiering based on base stat totals, then add or subtract points to Pokemon based on usage and ranking.

It really just results in a Smogon style format where you can have an OU on a UU team if you have an NU in the mix. It's at least an interesting thought because you can find some different cores.

>>28615531
This fucking this. This little turd was #1 in usage at the end of gen 5 why have they still not seen it's cancer, more cancer than swagger or attract could ever be.

>>28615540
Not luck based and doesn't win games alone.

>>28625320
Paralysis is more of a stop to it then 'just kill it xddd' since it'll just flinch you to death.

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>>28615531
Jirachi is just Dunsparce for total weenies

There are so many bans because the power creep is getting absurd.

>>28614353
>85% of the Pokédex unusable
You aren't very good at percentages are you.
But I digress, I think stealth rocks type based damage is fucking retarded, not broken but retarded. it should just do more to things that are immune to spikes.

>>28614363
More likely to use combusken than ninjask. Ninjask is just too fucking frail.

>>28615199
That's not why it was banned at all you tard. It was the subpunch set that sent it teetering over the edge into being ridiculously hard to stop outside one (one) pokemon, a pokemon everyone in OU hates because it's associated with being a scrub magnet like donphan or ambipom. Arcanine.
Much like aegislash it was a case of "guess its set right or you lose 1-2 pokemon lol".
Come to think of it if the team preview extended to items/sets you could unban a shitload of things.

>>28618425
But then won't that hit Mega Blaziken by proxy? On top of Ninjask, but who would honestly care?

What if there were more moves to stop Stealth Rocks? Not a lot, just more common than Rapid Spin, and not tied to a type that's weak to it like Defog.

Like, a 50 BP psychic move called "Psyforce" where if there are hazards on your side, it does 1.5x damage and removes said hazards. Has the same blockability of Rapid Spin but could have far more Pokemon that learn it, especially if it's a TM or at least an egg move for most, say, Humanshape psychics

>>28626936
That's a great and all, but Smogon and other tiering systems have no way to make something like that.

Smogon players place arbitrary rules in an attempt to level the battlefield including ones rather anti-RPG. Many of their rules attempt to remove luck from the equation. Luck is a part of this genre, they want every Pokemon to have a standard set so they can make the game "Competitive".

This isn't a shooter or fighting game. This is an RPG and luck is an integral part of the genre. Reducing that takes away from the game.

>>28626967
I am asking about a more general question of WHY is Stealth Rock so dominant and what would make it less so. Is it the amount of damage it does, or the difficulty in removing it?

>>28626988
It's a common pitfall of party games with a competitive element. Eventually, someone will try too hard to distill that competitive element and then you get shit like Pokemon, Smash, and competitive TF2

>>28620351
Make up your own you fucking sheep

>>28626580
>50% health free for one turn of setup on any pokemon that is bug/flying, bug/fire, fire/flying, ice/flying or hypothetically bug/ice ice/fire isn't broken.

>>28626967
You'd think they, or anyone at all, would attempt a project M style mod to alter the mechanics till they're competitive rather than just ban until it's shallow mechanically.

>>28626988
>Luck
>Comp
Choose one. Not that pokemon should even attempt to be competitive.

>>28626993
It breaks sashes/sturdy/multiscale and nets chip damage that can turn some 2hko's into 1hko's. And unlike spikes, it always does this.
This is why it is used. Not because people really just fucking hate volcarona, that's just a bonus.
It has nothing to do with the raw damage even though that's nice, nothing to do with how hard or easy it is to remove them. It just breaks sashes and turns a few 2shots into 1shot all for one turns setup. And again, it's because it hits everything. If there was a huge subset of pokemon flat out immune to SR then you'd probably see spikes a little more.

>>28627133
Super fang for 500 Alex.
See I can be a retard also.

>>28627143
Super Fang doesn't persist as a field effect that damages incoming mons and allows you to pick a second move.

Retard

>>28627143
So, what, in your opinion, is the best way to nerf Stealth Rock without having sashes everywhere? More Pokemon with immunity to it, reduced damage wholesale, or greater ease of removal? Or a combination of them?

>>28627208
>rocks only hit flying type pokemon
>have to be stacked for three turns like spikes
>using it disables use of all your other moves
>and pokemon
>user gets his dick chopped off to prevent his faggotry from polluting the human gene pool

>>28627133
>>28627191
Alright I'll bite then.
>Bug/Flying
These were dogshit regardless, hardly relevant. The one bug/flying that is good manages to be good despite rocks. (mega pinsir)
>bug/fire
One of two pokemon that are actually not OU because of SR grats.
>ice/flying
Delibird, who would be PU even if it had wonder guard, and articuno who has more issues than rocks. Again irrelevant.
>fire/flying
Bunch of things that are good despite rocks (talon, megazards), things that are shit regardless of rocks (not megazard) and moltres which would be fairly decent if it weren't for pebbles.
In conclusion you want to ban SR for two pokemon. Not worth it imhotbqwy.

>>28627208
Ideally you just change it to what they were going for directly, more damage on those that are immune to spikes (flying/levitate/balloon) and less on those not. Say 5% and 20% respectively. Fact is 'change it' isn't actually an option since smogon strives for accuracy in their simulation unless it's the sleep clause of course :^)

>>28627300
I am not talking about SR purely from a Smogon standpoint, but in a way that it's good and healthy for ALL metas.

File: Cassidy_Raticate.png (2MB, 1174x881px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 1174x881px

>>28627191
>>28627143

Imagine Pokemon being a 5 man team instead of a 6 man team and every team has a complimentary/obligatory Raticate with Scrappy that you can deploy at will instead of using a move that turn, and it stays on your opponent's side and uses Super Fang as soon as a Pokemon is sent out. Guaranteed 50% damage on everything except Wonder Guard I guess. You could sacrifice a turn of yours to target the Raticate instead of the actual opponent, but after say 3 turns of not having it out, it "revives" and you can use it again instead of using an actual move.

>hello, Reddit! Front page, here I come!

Would it be more or less broken than Stealth Rocks? Cause on one hand, it's guaranteed 50% damage on everything but Shedinja, but on the other, it literally can not KO a Pokemon outright because if they switch in twice, the first time they're down to 50%, but the second time they're down to 25% (since it does damage based on current health, not health total), also assuming they didn't take a hit when they were out the first time.

>>28627300
The problem is that yeah, those are the only Pokemon that take 50% but what about the ones that take 25% just for being the type they are? No Pokemon should take even 25% from SR, let alone 50%

>>28627362
Well.
>battlespot singles
hazards are hardly relevant with 3 pokemon
>VGC/doubles at large
hazards still aren't relevant since switching just happens so much less.

There aren't any other relevant 6v6 singles metas (where hazards are actually used) outside ones that allow much bigger issues such as darkrai without a sleep clause.

>>28627370
No dumbass that's 50% on everything not a handful of your bros.

>>28627391
25% is only really relevant for a bulky wall tank type, what fucking sort of bulky wall tank is weak to rock regardless of SR, the type is omnipresent. Again not seeing how it's all that relevant. If it was stealth icicles or fists you might have a case on that one.

GF should make an electric equivalent to Stealth Rock for all the fucking water types.

>>28627449
I vote we name these imaginary SR alternatives Black Ice and Love Tap respectively.

>>28627489
And have it learned primarily by steel types the same way pretty much nothing that uses pebbles in OU is actually a fucking rock type.

>>28627489
>>28627517
Precarious powerpoints.

>>28627523
This is the only issue I have with stealth rock.

>>28627523
Call it Electric Fence

>>28627489
You'd need a grass type version too for Swampert, Gastrodon and so on.

>>28627517
>>28627489
is there any pokemon that could survive switching into a stealth rock clone of every type all up at once? Stealth rock does 12.5% neutrally and there are 18 types, which is 225% if they're all neutral.
>inb4 magic guard

>>28627584
They'd be more special that way though. Like Skarmory and Gliscor being the only ones that are neutral to SR

>>28627594
I think they'd overwrite each other

>>28627594
I suppose there should be a limit of say 2 at a time? Maybe even just 1. Imagine a Normal-type Stealth Rock move. Every fucking thing can learn most Normal moves.

>>28627737
Trip-Wire/ Booby-Trap? Sounds neat.

>>28627208
>So, what, in your opinion, is the best way to nerf Stealth Rock

I've been saying since Gen IV that all you need to do to nerf SR is cap the damage at 25%

>YET SNEAKY PEBBLES IS STILL UNTOUCHED
also
>2010+3*2
>STILL not using Haze
what the fuck is wrong with people