Is this the most cancerous core in OU?

>>27299064
would hawlucha beat every mon?

>AV Landorus-T

>>27301027

As long as Sand Rush is in effect, Hawlucha loses to Excadrill.

>>27301027
Damn right.

>>27301374
not if Hawlucha manages to get its unburden off

>>27301374
scarfed flying press hawlucha

>>27301409
>Focus sash unburden
>Then killed by the sandstorm

>>27301420
Does Hawlucha even run Focus Sash ? It's almost always Sky Attack Power Herb or Shitrus

>>27301420

>focus sash

it's sub sitrus

>no Landorus-T
>no Heatran
Close, but no cigar.

Vaporeon used Scald

>>27301469

>Vaporeon

Completely outclassed by Suicune and Alomomola, don't use this shitmon

>>27301478
post your elo

>>27301504
nigga even someone at 1100 ELO who's read a bit on the forums would know that there is virtually no reason to use Vaporeon, Suicune is much better defensively and has better offensive presence, and 'Mola has better bulk and Regenerator. Vaporeon isn't even good in UU anymore.

>>27301543
>1100
opinion disregarded, get to 1700 and you can at least begin discussing this

It's pretty annoying, but anything is better than playing stall.

Looks like Mega Lopunny deals with it pretty well with Rotom-W being able to take on non Mold Breaker Excadrill. Tornadus-T + Rotom-W as well.

>>27299064
Maybe in gen 5

>>27301543
>Vaporeon isn't even good in UU anymore.
That's why Alomomomola is RU.

>>27301557
t. eeveelutionfag in denial that his fave is shit

>>27301557
>Claims to get to 1700
>Uses vaporeon while Suicune exists

>>27299064
>not talonflame, rotom wash and ferrothorn

>27301557
>>Claims to get to 1700
Where does it say?

>>27301557
Alomomola is a way better cleric, but in the end, you are better off with Chansey

Fighting/Ground pokemon with +110 Speed when?

>Garchomp used Earthquake!

>>27301847
I remember I would stall switching back and forth Alomomola and Blissey last gen. It was pretty alright.

>>27299064
>not Talonflame, Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, Tyranitar, Landorous-T, and Heatran

>>27301875
>Keldeo used Icy Wind!

Way better than fucking stall.

>>27301417
>flying press ohkos excadrill

File: shit the bullshit.jpg (44KB, 624x480px) Image search: [Google]

44KB, 624x480px

>>27301557

>>27302038
No but HJK does

>>27301469
>>27301504
>>27301557
tell em, suigining

guys don't doubt him he's actually good

Just throw on a clef, latios, and zard y and you got a top 5 team my dudes

>>27299064
Holy shit this is still a core?

>>27301574
Alomomola is actually good in OU and UU, which Vaporeon isn't. But Mola can't shine in UU and have high enough usage to rise because UU is crowded with bulky waters.

>>27301557
Same guy, I'm at about 1300ish in OU but I can never make teams I like because OU is so fucking boring, offense is stale and boring and not even HO's fun there. The only tier I manage to enjoy anymore is AG, where I'd peaked at 1699

>>27299064
What's the idea behind that core? I mean, I obviously understand Tyranitar + Sand Rush Exca, but what is Keldeo doing in there? And what exactly makes it so cancerous?

>>27301409
Why does fucking everyone try and build hawlucha as a gimmicky sweeper?
It gets Limber, Encore, and U-turn, seems like a perfect momentum guy

>>27302168
because it's fast and has unburden to be the most sanic thing in the tier, has a great offensive type and high power stabs, and access to SD to boost its attack. How is Unburden + SD gimmicky ?

File: 1.png (190KB, 935x315px) Image search: [Google]

190KB, 935x315px

Are people actually trying to argue that left is better than right for a bulky defensive water mon? Do you people know anything about this game? Bold max hp / def Vaporeon >>>> Suicune any day of the week.

>>27302229
And then Vaporeon becomes passive as fuck, while Suicune can become incredibly hard to wear down after a couple CMs and bolster up its offensive presence, which Vaporeon can't.

and also
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 243-289 (60.1 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 110-133 (27.2 - 32.9%) -- 67.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery


252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon: 286-339 (61.6 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 168-199 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- 94.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

>>27302229
>t. Vaporeonfag salty that his fav is total shit

>>27302318
Those numbers are very close, and now Vaporeon has the edge because more hp recovered per turn and more damage output never hurts.

Granted they are pretty close in effectiveness, but Vaporeon still has the edge due to its ridiculous HP stat. Some niche uses of Suicine might put him over in some situations, like a BP team. But Vaporeon can wreck shit in a BP team too so I'm not even sure about that.

>>27302229
Are you retarded? Suicune is OBJECTIVELY better, so there's really no point in arguing. Here, let me show you:

4 Atk Life Orb Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 307-367 (66.1 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 205-244 (50.7 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Abomasnow Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon: 265-312 (57.1 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
252 SpA Life Orb Abomasnow Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 221-265 (54.7 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery

What exactly is there to discuss? If you think Vaporeon's stat spread is better, you're flat out wrong. It's that simple. Suicune is bulkier both on the physical and special side. Feel free to leave this thread if you don't even know what you're talking about.

>>27302328
>t. Vaporeonfag salty that his fav is total shit
Nice try. Vaporeon is annoying as fuck. I would rather face a Suicine than a Vaporeon any time. Both are pretty outclassed in this meta though.

>>27302353
BP is banned mate. And Suicune can boost up while Vaporeon can't. Vaporeon's outclassed by Mola as a wishpasser, and by pretty much anything with access to Wish in OU. There's virtually no reason to use Vaporeon outside of fat stall, where 'Mola is better, and Suicune is a Bulky Offense mons. They don't do the same thing.

>>27302377
>And Suicune can boost up while Vaporeon can't
>he's never had to deal with max spdef / hp acid armor Vaporeon
You're a lucky one.

>>27302373
Then you're shit at competitive. Regardless of your ELO.

>>27302372
see >>27302353

>>27302386
Honestly that sounds like complete setup bait

>>27302353
>>27302404
>Those numbers are very close
They sure as hell aren't "very close" you idiot. When dealing physical damage, the maximum rolls on Suicune are lower than the minimum rolls on Vaporeon, as seen here >>27302318 and here >>27302372. That, my le epic friend, is a pretty big difference. You can stop your pro-Vaporeon shitposting now.

>>27302413
Only if you're Serperior, who shits on all 3 of them. Otherwise, enjoy scald

>>27302472
Well many things shit on all three of them, but about that Vaporeon set, I can also see NP Thundy, SubCM Raikou or Keldeo, Zard-X, or anything with Sub really (is SubDance M-Gyarados still a thing ?)

>>27302386
doesnt every cm mon beat this (including cune lol)

>>27302413
Not at all. Almost every Suicine runs CM, so that is to be expected. If you don't predict that Vaporeon has Acid Armor and let him get one up, good fucking luck. Scald / wish / toxic /roar or whatever the fuck it wants to do, you're pretty screwed.

>>27302229
I know man. Stats aside, when will players realize that baton pass and the switch prediction it grants Vaporeon is what sets it apart and makes it amazing.

I don't know how people who take this game seriously still don't understand that baton pass when facing something Vaporeon walls/threatens means you either absorb the hit and can switch to a revenge killer or you know who they sent out to deal with Vaporeon. I hate to blame Smogon, they balance 6v6 the best the can, but I fear the usage tiers have made people complete idiots about Pokemon. If it doesn't have the ability to sweep unassisted and requires a team with thought, its somehow worse then the band aide pokemon that works on any poorly built team.

>>27302377
BP is banned in some situations. You can still use it, just not teams that stack the passes. Unless a new rule was made, I went back to playing battle spot exclusively months ago.

>>27299064
Fairy / dragon / steel core is better. Azumarill / Charizard X / something is probably the most solid core going.

>>27302510
Then you have a 'Mola with slightly better defense and a bit more damage output that needed one turn of setup, is itself susceptible to phazing, doesn't have Regenerator and can still be broken by any special wallbreaker, or you just have complete tauntbait (like 'Mola to an extent)
It's a fat stall mon that's a lot harder to fit on cores because it needs one turn to boost and can't form a double regenerator core like Slowbro or 'Mola can.

>>27302229

It's not just Suicune, UU has an overload of Water-types

>Swampert
>Gyarados
>Mega Sharpedo
>Mega Blastoise
>Tentacruel
>Empoleon
>Milotic
>Jellicent
>Alomomola (not UU by usage, but it's still pretty good in UU)

It's just hard to justify using Vaporeon when there are so many better choices for a bulky Water.

Sure, it's got Wish and Heal Bell, but so do Alomomola, Blissey, and Sylveon. Vaporeon is simply outclassed at everything it can do.

>>27302576
You can't pass any stat along with speed iirc, so it cockblocks most chains

>>27302510

>Acid Armor

kek

>>27302594
Mola is played very different from Vaporeon / Suicune despite having similar sets and being a bulky water. Hard to compare Mola with either of them. Mola doesn't like to stay on the field for too long like they do.

>>27302610
Both of them are completely outclassed in OU, not so sure about UU. But the discussion was vaporeon vs suicune.

>>27302576

You can only Baton Pass speed or offensive boosts, you're not allowed to pass both anymore

>people comparing a cleric with a set up sweeper
Ayo why use Raikou when you can use Chansey??

>>27302645
Suicune is a BO setup sweeper, 'Mola and Vaporeon both have wish passing cleric roles. Vaporeon wishes it could stay on the field like Ayylmaomola can in some occasions.

And well in UU Suicune is S rank and Vaporeon is the only D rank mon so that's that

>>27302153

Keldeo is there because Tyranitar can Pursuit trap Keldeo's checks and counters.

>>27302131

Check the usage stats for one of the three, and the other two will be listed as the most common partners.

>No sandstorm

>Excadrill still manages to outspeeding you because they slapped a choice scarf on it

>>27302665
Vaporeon has good staying power, it's main use is to wish stall with scald / toxic and it can survive better than Mola. Mola is unique in that it can regenerate when switched out, but Vaporeon stays out longer. Also it can start its setup by switching into a water type move thanks to absorb.

Of course a counter will scare either of them off the field, including suicune, so that's not really an argument.

>>27299064

>Keldeo

Literally any grass or electric type

>Tyranitar

Literally any fighting type

>Excadrill

Magnezone with balloon, steel trap and magnet rise

>>27302733
Forgot to mention roar, Vaporeon can keep roaring shit away while Mola can't.

File: image.jpg (85KB, 640x539px) Image search: [Google]

85KB, 640x539px

>tfw people keep setting up substitute against my galvantula and Heliolisk

>They keep forgetting that Bug Buzz and Hyper voice goes through it

>>27302733
Mola's physical bulk is actually much better than Vaporeon's, and its higher HP makes it an actualy better wish passer, and sunfishe's special bulk is lower but it's still just what it needs to stay, regen, and come back to annoy you. Vaporeon may have more staying power but uninvested it's still too passive to do anything. Vaporeon offers very little utility over 'Mola in 90% of teams outside of fat stall, and even then a Regenerator core is always welcome.

>>27302733

Mola has higher overall bulk due to higher HP

Mola can pass bigger Wishes, and it's not as reliant on its own Wishes as Vaporeon is, thanks to Regenerator

>>27301504
>>27301557

I had no idea Elo was a determination of common sense. Vaporeon is terrible, and you're terrible for using it. If someone needs to tell you that, then it's obvious you don't even play OU

>>27302973
t. 1200 elo

>>27302229

Please tell me this is bait. I can't imagine that someone could possibly be THIS autistic

You guys shitting on Vaporeon really don't know how potent it is. Water Absorb and Baton Pass are what makes it quality. Looking at tiering isn't the way to go, since Vap is amazing in OU even if it's not deemed gold in UU.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-276603115

t. player who actually knows what he's talking about

>>27302386

>he's never had to deal with a shit set

Yeah I've never had to deal with SD Keldeo either. That statement means nothing.

>>27302995
Well I'm not staying it can't be viable, but outside of semi-stall or fat stall on a very specific team that could use a water absorber, it's hard to justify using it 99% of the time. Sure it can be viable with enough team support, but that's a thing you can say for any 'mon that isn't a totally ireedemable shitmon like Lumineon or base Pidgeot. It's an extremely niche 'mon that most of the time shouldn't be thought of, that's it

>>27302988
Not that guy but Alo and Suicune have been known to be more effective since at least mid-xy. Vaporeon has long fallen off without HydraRest. Alo has been on countless 1800+ stall teams, and Suicune is super situational since its outclassed by Keldeo most the time, but it still sees more usage than Vaporeon. Coming from a ~1650ish player. I'm not great but it's not hard to follow ladder trends if you spend even 5 minutes looking into it.

>>27302995
Yeah I kinda gave up arguing with them, they obviously don't know much about the game. And shit like >>27302994 is the only kind of "argument" they can muster.

>>27303038
Considering it has been OU from Gen 2 to Gen 5, it's very viable on its own. Only people new to the game seem to hop on the bandwagon and immediately dismiss it because of where they see it currently stands.

I've taken it (or rather it has taken me) to Top 10 on the ladder on many occasions.

>>27302988

I guess common sense isn't one of your strengths. Not even when the actual facts are thrown at you.
Let's see, it's outclassed by mola as a wishpasser, outclassed by suicune as a physical wall, outclassed by slowbro as a physical wall, has no effective means of set up. Only advantage it has over these 3 is its spdef, with spdef vap being useless because of the amount of physical threats it would need to check, not to mention it's defense is terrible. But
nah "hahaha 1200 shitter" will be your argument because you definitely know me. Facts, not important. I get it.

>>27303203
Well it was good because it had decent offensive presence and great bulk, but power creep nibbled it down pretty far. It's like those Shedinja stall teams that managed to climb all the way up the ladder, or whatever shenanigan grows popular. It might work on that team that's really successful, but in any other scenario it's either worthless or outclassed. Once again, I'm not saying it can't be used, but there's a reason 'Mola is seen about twice as much on ou-1825

>>27302988
Explain why Vaporeon is better when Alomomola and Suicune are both better at everything?
>>27303246

>>27303094
Alomomola sees more play than Vaporeon because it's safer in a team surrounded by a billion walls, these teams tend to have fat clerics and many different ways to deal with status, Vaporeon's main boon is deterring scald spam and wish passing safely into frailer mons as well as gaining momentum, something that is not so useful in stall teams.
You people have your heads so far up your asses with "usages" and "tiers" that won't use anything that is "outclassed" by something else even if it'd fit your team comp better.

>>27302995
>Stall vs stall
Why would anyone enjoy something like that? 118 turns of switching and exchanging hazards until one players gets bored and decides to forfeit because he doesn't want the match to go on any longer.

>>27302995

If you want a Water Absorber in OU, why not just use Volcanion?

>>27303301
Fuck off already. Post some of your "Top 10 on the ladder with Shitporeon" battles if you want me to believe you over the whole snogon UU community.

The ONLY competent use I've seen of him were BP chain teams. Now that they're banned he's just not good anymore.

>>27303379
Eh, Volcanion can't wishpass and isn't exactly a stall staple. A slightly more commonly seen Stall water absorber would be Jellicent, who has about as much usage as 'mola in >1825.

>>27303260
When you see Alomomola that high it's almost exclusively on stall. And it's there in the first place to be a generic switch-in to big physical attackers, considering physical Grass and Electric are rare anyhow.

>>27303312
My team with Vaporeon isn't stall, it's just balance actually equipped to deal with long-term games and break stall. Excadrill, Mega Metagross, and Tornadus-T were all offensive.

He forfeited because he was in checkmate.

>>27303379
Volcanion is a big attacker, with Water Absorb as a perk to make it a bigger answer to Azu. Vap has reliable recovery on top of Water Absorb to actually back it up so it can take on something like Keldeo minus the Specs or Specs Kingdra in Rain.

Don't be sad vapobro's

Atleast Flareon is still shittier

>>27303301
This "Wishpass to offensive mon" role technically exists, but not in the form you're discussing. Nobody actually uses WISH to heal up their frail offensive team once you get out of low elo, since it's slow and inffective, and generally having a mon with 0 offensive presence on an offensive team is a waste of a team slot.

A pokemon that would outclass Vaporeon in the role you're describing is Latias. You do not need an immunity to Water or Burn to dissuade Scald spam, and Latias quite easily tanks them and doesn't care too much about Burn. It also serves as a Defogger, and most importantly gets Healing Wish. It safely allows you to heal up your statused/weakened/dead to rocks sweeper and bring it back to full while sacking a nearly dead Latias. These types of teams do not "need" or really even want a bulky Water so Vaporeon really lags behind Healing Wishers in that regard.

tl;dr- On offense, Healing Wish > Wish

File: image.png (146KB, 356x256px) Image search: [Google]

146KB, 356x256px

>Stat Boostan

>They send out a unaware Quagsire

>>27303489
>Nobody actually uses WISH to heal up their frail offensive team once you get out of low elo
Post your elo so I know you're not lying.

>>27303489
You forgot about the part where Tyranitar invalidates the Latis.

>>27303591
So run a Breloom.

>>27302373
>Rather face a suicune
>Never fought crocune
>claims assid armor max sp. def/hp vaporean is better
>Literal setup bait.
>Toxic
>#nodamage

>>27303541
Phones too shit to load showdown so I can't rn as a prenote.

Most of the shitters on this board consider 1400+ to be "good rating" and even my accs with shittons of rating decay from not playing are still above 1500, so take that as you will. I've voted in like 6 suspect tests and I could probably dig up those pictures if you're in dire need of looking for proof.

I always struggle with getting past Vaporeon and Milotic in OU. My only recourse is usually a Magic Guard Clefable, which works great until you come across a fucking Haze set. OU's Water types are easier to handle because they have exploitable secondary typings.

What's the best way to get past a generic bulky Water?

>>27302757
>Magnet Rise AND balloon

I can't stop laughing. you are a funny guy!

>>27302151

>i peaked at 1699

boy 5 klefki's and a mega ray sure seem like a great, fun, and creative way to play this children's game

>>27303680
Toxic Rotom Mow

>>27303620
You really don't know what you're talking about do you? I feel like an asshole for talking down to you like this but it feels like you're baiting me by saying blatantly wrong things.

Pursuit is a move you should look up.

>>27303715
Oh gee, maybe you should remove the tyranitar before you bring your lati out then. Really tough concept to come up with though I know.

>>27303965
If you do that you're missing the whole point about using Latias defensively, considering you're saying to not bring it in until the Tyranitar is down, allowing the Water spammer to run amok.

How oblivious are you? There's a reason Keldeo and Tyranitar are in the same pic in the OP.