Roguelike General - /rlg/ - Dead fucking genre edition

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friendly reminder to never play Xom or your a pedo weaboo

This seemed to generate some interesting discussion last thread, so I'll repost it here:

Grinding is a term derived from RPG's where you would have to loiter around an area you've already explored/completed, killing more monsters than necessary, in order to gain levels/items to tackle the next stage of the game.
However there is also forced grind, where the game forces you to participate in repetitive tasks/actions in order to progress. Forced grind would be a game that forced you to kill 10 of a certain monster one after another, when 5 would have been fine. This is usually done to artificially lengthen the lifespan of a game, and is also called "padding".
Contrary to what some might say, the grind of these types in a game like PCB is actually minimal. However there is also subjective grind, which is far more common and what PCB suffers from. Subjective grind is game progression that FEELS like padding because of the repetitive nature of it, but is different. The problem with PCB is that the game has a single objective and everything before that point is essentially just gaining levels and loot, the primary purpose of true grinding. However PCB has a range of quests and dungeons to explore and a wide variety of enemies, and procedural generation means that almost every scenario is different, meaning that you never need to retread old ground, making the grind purely subjective.
DoomRL has different progress markers, but these do not form any type of grind. Challenges force you to play the game in a different way and under different circumstances, and each is like a different game in itself (though naturally similar). Badges and medals are things you can achieve in any one playthrough, or sometimes cumulatively, but they are purely optional and act more like achievements. Aiming for them can be another way to play, but cumulative achievements (build 10,000 assemblies) aren't designed to be grinded and therefore the fault lies with the player, not the design.

>>167927186
wut
I don't know what you just said but the combat in PCB is horseshit, the main appeal of the game is loot and numbers. And DoomRL combat is literally "fire into the darkness to not die from attrition from hitscan weapons". A game with actually fun combat with complex mechanics doesn't feel like a grind even if you fight the same opponent multiple times in similar environments.

ded
last bump in the night

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mfw woke up, refreshed old thread and it was dead with less than 700 replies

deader than dcss

>>167927504
The discussion was about what constitutes grinding and what doesn't, not the quality of roguelike combat. I also said in the last thread that DoomRL has great combat unless you're a faggot who thinks you're meant to play it by spamming shotgun fire from around corners, in which case you're simply playing it wrong.

>>167930916
it's exactly as dead as dcss
shitposting about crawl is the lifeblood of the general
everyone shitposting about crawlbadgame actually took their own advice and stopped playing, and now thred will be ded forevermore

>>167930916
Previous one died at 420 or something

>>167927504
>I don't know what you just said but
Why would you reply to a post that you don't understand? Learn to read you fucking child.

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oh no, new things

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>>167936552
Oh right. Can only customize star sign with jewmodo.

Maybe I'll go back to prerelease 20 later.

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>>167936663
And doing the healing quest I remember how shitty the default ADOM keybinds are. I need to get my other hard drive set up again.

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Page 10 randompicbump.

>not using superior graphics in ADOM

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>>167932706
Last 2 threads died the moment I commented in them.

ugh I haven't had the spark of desire to play roguelikes for months now

I mean I shouldn't at this very moment anyways because I have work to zugzug, but in general I play for a bit and then realize I'd rather do something other than make my RSI worse while driving myself to despair losing characters

oh Ludia, nonexistent muse of gaming, why has thou turned thy face away from me and stolen my spark, my fire, my lust for battle

Well, finally understand why extended Crawl (specifically Pan/Hell) have very specific ways of dealing with shit. Regen+ in some form is a must, super fast attack speed is quite good, etc.

But even just from dipping into Pan and dying after getting the demonic rune, I wouldn't call it fun/interesting.

>>167943050
Anon pls. You're the only person in these threads who likes it.

>>167947484

Regen isn't a must, you're just bad. Not having fun with things that you're bad at is just natural.

>>167947484
It seems like many strong players agree with you that 15 rune runs are not actually that fun, and it's instead more interesting to focus on getting in fast/underlevelled/underpowered 3 rune wins.

>>167948021
Listening to the opinions of people who have played the game to death was the start of crawl's decline.

>>167927186

It wasn't really interesting. Just a bunch of babies that refuse to accept that any gameplay that requires killing more than 1 goblin is considered grinding. The tedium that they so despise is the one that they're unconsciously indulging in everyday.

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Feels good to be a burglary rogue.

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Page 10 randompicbump.

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That was fast!

Ring mail of Cold resistance near the beginning of the game

>>167950621
You mean everyone just disagreeing with you en masse? I can see why that wouldn't interest a complete narcissist. Just in case your mental illness isn't bait though, I'll ask a question for clarification - if this is your definition of grinding, then what games do you play that don't have it?

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play and post rogue likes you faggots

>>167927504
>A game with actually fun combat with complex mechanics
Yes but we're talking about roguelike games, which are strategy games in which you control a single character in an unknown environment against zombie-like enemies. Nobody has figured out how to make that fun in the past 37 years.

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>>167959643

>>167933229
Because the thread is dead you nigger-loving kike

PCB possessors aren't as bad as they sound

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Decent start I guess.

I have decided that Gozag is better that Sif for Spriggan casters. Funding book shops is more likely to get you good spells than waiting for crap artifact spellbooks.

>>167950923
what a steal

>>167962819
their main weakness is the 4.0 blows/turn cap (obviously not including extra blows from items), but a) even so they are capable of melee and b) they are super fun and get really neat options

I've yet to get far with a caster-spec possessor but I keep thinking about it.

The whole "you can be knocked out of your body, and then the body may or may not dissolve" thing is a serious danger however, especially as an incremental risk in the lategame. Mimics don't have to deal with that, but OTOH mimics often have a rougher time getting the forms they want, particularly uniques.

>>167925998
>smart fucking kobold
that game was hard as balls

>>167966749
The strongest melee forms hit stupidly hard despite four blows, so it's not as bad as it sounds.

The worst (well, least fun) thing about the possessor is that you are basically locked to a good corpse once you use it, so you can't mess around and try out weird bodies.

>>167968025
yeah I wish that intentionally leaving a body didn't have decay risk because it really punishes the player for trying things out and exploring

>>167968025
>ywn possess a caaws

>>167961103
No excuse to not actually read what you're replying to first you double nigger

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>>167969296
>yw possess an ultimate magus in your lifetime

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Let's play Warsim, /rlg/.

Hey Anon playing ADoM. I was just about to start a game of that myself. any tips for a complete newbie. like i've never really gotten past the first dungeon newbie. Also you said something about improving the keybindings. any tips on that?

>>167972120
Let's play Mount & Blade!

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We should pick Insane, since that's what a REAL roguelike player would do.

>>167972547
No arena scumming allowed!

>>167972547
Is this a roguelike
Is it fun

>>167973181
It's got ASCII so it deserves a fair shake

>>167973181
No.
Yes, but it's unfinished and you'll run out of content quite soon.

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Not much we can do right now, not with these resources, but like all TRUE roguelikes, we can exploit bugs and powergame later.
>>167972675
Of course it's a roguelike. Do you think a non-roguelike would show up on Roguebasin? It's even got pretty ASCII. and almost everything is procedurally generated.

I tried to play Smart Kobold but I couldn't turn off my tabmode and died

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Whoops! Almost forgot to save!

>>167972547
>>167973604
>>167973827
After looking at this cropping, I can say for sure that it's a bonafide roguelike.

>>167973181
The guy playing it is shit at cropping so it must be a roguelike.

>>167936663
At least do the hex edit that removes the nagware.

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Oh no, I lost. I guess I need to start over...
Or I could just reload my save. I'm glad that this ROGUELIKE added that feature.

>>167974684
Permadeath only exists in roguelikes because of tradition. It was never a fun feature, but in 1980 they weren't able to implement saved games.

Was that all? Seriously? Come on guy, at least post some actual gameplay.

>>167976246
It's difficult to find gameplay worth showing.

>>167955039

Two of you isn't en masse. A game without grinding doesn't exist making it a pointless buzzword and it's just a natural occurrence like how there isn't a human that was born with 5 hands. A roguelike that sends you to max level, drops all obtainable items in the game at your feet in a single kill and only has a 2x1 map size would just be silly after all. Tedium is inevitably a part or a requirement for proper game design no matter how short the said game is.

Man, I love roguelikes, but sometimes I wish the really fun challenges weren't kept far apart by long stretches of nothing. Especially when the game will drop a lethal situation on you without so much as a --MORE-. It sucks having to remain extremely watchful at all times and succumb to boredom, so you don't die to pressing the move keys too quickly.

It's not cheating if I mod the game and add those --MORE-- prompts myself, right?

>>167979360

No one is forcing you to play real roguelikes. You can play those games with Save Points so you can just load your game whenever you commit a lethal mistake due to boredom or whatever excuse you can think of.

>>167979360
Speaking as a repentant cheater, no.

>>167977067
Point out the grind involved in chess

>>167980259

The need to require more than 1 turn and 2 tiles to play it obviously.

>>167979360
That's why DCSS is so popular. Push o, get a situation that requires some nontrivial human input, repeat.

>>167981214
what no
the majority of fights in dcss are very boring

>>167981296
Still beats navigating through a hallway or through an empty room.

>>167981652
navigating empty rooms isn't the majority of the gameplay in any roguelikes i can think of anon

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>>167981296
>DCSS
>2017
>still can't dual wield

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>>167981731
Majority of turns taken, minority of time spent.

Picture unrelated.

>>167983984
>gyre and gimble don't exist

>>167983984
Someone made a fork for that actually. Formicids were especially baller, because they could duelwield twohanders. I'll post an upload for it in a minute.

>>167984153
better said as "doesn't exist" because it's a single item
not like quickthorn/littlethorn

Actually I found the link that I downloaded it from, no upload necessary.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/dt64cxzyb5c91fm/DCSS+UM+Mod+0.15.2%2C+V5.rar
Also buffed mummies, and returned Lava Orcs and Djinni to the game.

>>167984609
What about Sludge Elves

Man, Caves of Qud suffers so much from "open world syndrome," or whatever you'd call it.

>>167985197
He let them RIP
Ostensibly the changelog is incomplete, but I don't know what else he might have changed.

That said, he also re-added zealot backgrounds, but they get 9 fewer stat points (-3 each) than everybody else so it's not worth it.

>>167983984
Does dual-wielding actually make combat less boring?

>>167979360
we all know that feel.
>moving through a long diagonal corridor in Brogue
>can't use shift+direction
>tapping up-right-up-right repeatedly
>You die...
>message log says a H popped out of a statue a bit farther on the way and murdered me in 2 keypresses worth of time

adding a more prompt to shattering statues could be a good idea actually, i'm going to do that

>>167986078
The trick is to use the mouse to travel long distances in brogue.

Now, waiting for caustic gas to dissipate and whoops it spread onto my square and sssss dead, on the other hand.

What are all the bugs associated with PCB deathswords again?

>>167986631
You have to *identify* yourself whenever you evolve to reveal your slays on the character sheet, is the only one I know of.

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>>167986631
I don't know about bugs but I know getting your essences drained by disenchantment is the literal worst

>>167986628
or press enter instead of using mouse

>>167986808
it's whenever you get a new slay/brand, not just when you evolve

also the various race-specific telepathies like "sense orc" don't show up on the character screen (although they still work)

>>167985887

I don't know about you but bumping enemies and point to clicking enemies for exp is the very epitome of boring which is unfortunately present in all roguelikes.

>>167985397
Define please
Is that where the game allows the player too much freedom and no focused goal such that the player just fucks around on the map, ala C/DDA or Elona/+?

>>167988072
Not quite. More like there is a lot of room to explore and whatnot, and yet it all feels so empty. You're right, but the problem I'd say is that, aside from the unique locations, everywhere else is so samey. I've only played the free version, so I don't know how much more complete the Steam version is. For example, the mountainous regions distant from Joppa have very similar monster spawns to areas not far from the early game.

For whatever reason, I have recently created a character with no purpose other than to destroy everything in an area.

I found for myself a new song to listen to while playing roguelikes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJNR2EpS0jw

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>>167991148

>>167991547
I think this should be our virtual memeball song instead of crawling in my crawl

>>167972164
Alrighty. To your first question, define just how open you are to spoilers. And for the keybinds, you change some self-explanatory values in Documents/ADOM/adom.kbd

>>167991148
What is the best summoner combo in DCSS?
Is it still Sif Mummy?

>>167977067
So let me get this straight. Your argument is basically that grind and content are the same thing. By definition of these words, as already demonstrated, you are objectively wrong. The closest approximation to your perspective is that you personally find all content tedious, and thus would label it as grind. This is rather sad, and it makes me wonder why you're here at all.
If you wish to continue arguing your case, please at least understand that your central point hinges around a word meaning something different than what it actually means, and provide something new.

If your only real incentives to go Translocations is Phase Shift and Warp Weapon, is it worth the EXP?
-t. Formicid

>>167995162
ants can use Passage of Golubria as well
one of the only ways they can actually put distance between themselves and monsters

>>167995162
apportation
disjunction
singularity
mass banishment

>>167995274
Can't enemies follow you through the portals?
>>167995375
>apportation
Okay.
>disjunction
That's kinda out there for a melee dude but okay.
>singularity
15,2
>mass banishment
? nothing about this on learndb, or the wiki.

>>167995659
portals disappear after being entered once

>>167995659
mass banish is from *bands

Why was Pakellas removed? I started an artificer only to realize that not only were artificer starter options gutted but Pakellas didn't exist anymore.

>maybe I should look at Trunk
>Repel Missiles is gone instead of fixed
>replacing Battlesphere in the starting book rather than effectively nerfing, and forcing you to use another shit clunky spell (fucking hexes) to do damage
>Sword of Jihad renamed for political correctness among the 20 people who still play
Great

>>167996494
What was it named

>>167996661
Zealot Sword
kind of a shitty name tbqh, it would sound better as the Sword of Holy War or even just Sword of the Zealot

>>167996429
As an outside observer, I gather they felt there was a balance issue where they felt they couldn't balance devices to simultaneously feel okay on both Pak and non-Pak characters, plus you had elee characters that were also able to act like bigtime mages with very little investment.

Still seems pretty stupid to me. "Lead with the cool stuff" has long been the first rule of dungeon mastering.

>>167996845
Crusader's Blade

>>167997136
fuck yeah

>>167996984
IIRC it was actually a mechanical issue; he kept on causing crashes and they couldn't figure out how to fix them so they just commented him out.

>>168000215
Jesus, can't we get some dedicated anon from here to fork crawl and not remove shit?

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https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/pull/20165

Why the fuck do I keep bothering with this game.

I can understand mistakes - everyone fucks up once in a while - but grabbing a turd and smearing it all over the game intentionally?

>>168001549
I almost want DDA to split into 2.
That way the decent devs can try to make an actual game, while the others can keep flinging shit around all they like...

>>167988383
Open world roguelikes suffer from the same problem as 3D open world early access scams on Steam, such as The Forest. It looks like there ought to be something to do, but when you get down to it there actually isn't.

>>167927504
>combat in PCB is horseshit
Why do you think so?

>>167996429

Unlimited magic pots turn spells into no brainers. That isn't good no matter how you look at it.

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Never gets old.

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>when you start out with a 99 life rating and finally find a newlife to try out

FUCK

>>167994748

If you were actually capable of even an ounce of reading comprehension you could easily conclude that I am questioning the existences of these two buzzwords called tedium and grinding especially when used as an insult. Whenever any of these two are used as an implied derogatory remark to any kind of game, it's basically equivalent to saying "this human is dumb, he actually has 2 hands and 2 legs", "this juice tastes bad because it's a liquid" which doesn't make any sense since they are mutual properties. Every single game with replayability will always have all 3 (content, grind, tedium) of these which is basically every single game ever made.

>>168011136
My 2 int brain hurts

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post games that nobody plays

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>>168014632

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S p r o g g i w o o d

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCBruzpN0jY

S p r o g g i w o o d

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>>168014632

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>>168014632

What's the best stat to dump for Hybrid class characters in PosChengBand?

My first instinct is Charisma, then either of Int/Wis that you aren't using, but can you dump other stats like Dex without suffering major ill-effects?

>>168019105
dumping charisma is a terrible idea
charisma is your saving throw vs fear
you don't need to prioritize it, but having it as your lowest stat is just begging to get fucked over by "the foo breathes! you are terrified! in your fear, you fail to read the scroll of teleporation!"

as a hybrid-caster class you basically want every stat but one.
if you're talking about character creation, it's gonna be better IMO to have an okay amount of points in str/dex/caststat/con rather than maxing one and having shitty values for the others. after all, the point-buy gets less cost efficient the higher a stat is

>>167966247
The only reason I would pick ANY god over Gozag for a spriggan is if I wanted to speedrun or play some kind of jank-ass necro build that actually needs corpses. Gozag basically guarantees that a spriggan will never run out of food. Pimp gear from other shops and Bribe Branch are just icing.

>>168022213
Sp already doesn't run out of food.

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>>168018831

>>168000561
Speaking as someone who tried that, it's not worth it.

You'd have to manually copy-paste all the new things they added because presumably your files wouldn't be exactly the same as their files. If you wanted to add stuff that had been removed at some point in the past, you'd have to update the code so it lines up with the new formats, or else add obsolete dependencies to the function files. Even if you did all this, you'd have to figure out all the bugs that result from this on your own.

And all you'd get from it is a Crawl with more features.

>>168019576
Even Charisma 18/*** gives less of a resistance to fear than one pip of rFear

>>168011136
*sigh*
Tedium isn't a buzzword
Your understanding of the term 'grinding', and what it means, is wrong
Your insistence that all games with any level of replayability also inherently contain grind is wrong, because that's not what grind means
Your insistence that all games with any level of replayability also inherently contain tedium is also wrong, because tedium is subjective.
Your analogies are retarded and have no connection to your argument
I pray that you're trolling with this shit, because the idea that you could be serious throws my opinion of humanity into serious jeopardy.

>>168022906
This
Unless you're playing a character that uses pets, Charisma is always the first stat to dump.

What are we all splatting today?

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My arm healed and the withdrawal was already gone. This is getting boring, maybe I'll take another challenge : trying to escape from the lab.

>>168027526
ourselves

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Full fucking health. Fuck this piece of shit game.

>>168031561
Did you close door

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>>168027526
Nethack, I have had promising runs splatted via giant with a wand of death ray 5 times now, not even on bones levels.

I'm cursed.

>>168023395

>y-y-you're wrong and r-retarded!

as long as it lets you sleep at night

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>>168014632

Does anyone have that pic of xom playing with chaos night action figures over a board or whatever? I forgot to save it last time.

>>168032538
Your mistake was playing Nethack

>>168032538
the gnome mage with a wand of death may be unlikely and a meme, but it still happens

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Lucky.
I think Lab Challenge will be easier if I take Cannibal and computer skills.

>>168037080
To Serve Man is still one of the most entertaining things I've seen from that game

I haven't played roguelikes in almost 3 months

Have there been any interesting crawl changes other than scarves? Are they still trying to make the game shorter and denser?

>>168038378
they made a fun new fire spell
and did some bad things

Absolutely

NOTHING

>>168019105
Yeah, the only really important ones early game are str/dex and your casting stat, though starting with low con will make it take longer to get decent hp once it starts mattering. Whether that's worth it is up to you.

Some of them with good starting attack spells (like death priests, warlocks) can focus more on the casting stat and still be fine.

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Thematic.

>>168039429
Spicerack-Echizen, "Because it's thyme"

>>168039429
I believe in you, spicerack!

>>168027526
That duelwielding branch of Crawl. I've learned that axes apply their cleave to the second weapon too. I'm supposing that a great source of damage would be an executioner's axe of speed with secondary electric-branded weapon.

I just lost both my arms legs and one eye in an accident recomen me a good roglike to get my mind off it

>>168041248
How did you lose both your arms legs and one eye

>>168041248
IVAN

>>168041297
eplosion

>>168041248
how are you typing this?

>>1680415mouthstick also play dorf fot with it.

>>168022906
not true anon
each pip of rfear just lets you roll your charisma bonus a second time
rFear has little effect if you have low charisma, you need a balance of both

>>168032631
Not the same guy. but this is the best comeback to a series of well-constructed arguments I've ever seen. Bravo!

>>168037282
well you'll be happy to know that the joke was ripped from a scifi short story, it's not original to cdda

>>168041248

crawl

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>>168041490
good

>>168041621
Rogue Effect

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Sleeping as Broken Cyborg is a pain in the ass.

>>168042427
you start with earplugs or noise-canceling headgear dont you
you pretty much need to wear it to sleep

>>168042157

what animal is this

>>168042673
Damn, I dropped it at the lab because with the earplug I can't interact with NPC.

I'll just kill myself then.

>>168042781
this is a red &

>DDA 0.D just around the corner
>Kevin, in his boundless wisdom, not only merges another filthy clothing feature (that can't be disabled), but fights the inclusion of a mod that would disable it
Give me some hope /rlg/

>>168044224
He will die someday.

>Finally have a caster run get past the first 3 levels
>Just cleared Lair
>Still using Dazzling Spray and Mystic Blast because no spellbooks
>Go back to find branchs
>Snakepit and Shoals
Fuck. Never had this combination before, and I specifically remembering someone saying both is RIP city.
Should I just jump into a lava pit now?

>>168044605
Have you done the rest of D yet? Orc?

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>>168038378
Only bones remained of the elven men who had vaninshed into the devs' stomachs. The devs then proceeded to rape the women, like they had been possessed by the elven men's hatred. The excrement made from elves that the goons and devs had eaten became the women's only food, who at this point had become beasts.

There are women in despair, others who find pleasure in violence, and even a few who adore the goons. The high class elven race as we know it was already extinct. Now they were just a low grade livestock, only waiting to get slaughtered. For their masters' sake, the females eat each other to gain fat on their limbs. Only a mere 29 remain of the 2000 females.

The weak women become meat, and the strong men eat the continent. What species' females will they eat up next?

>>168045203
what the fuck do goons have to do with crawl

>>168044605
Shoals is semi-doable for a caster. It's RIP city for a melee otabber because it's *specifically* designed to fuck you up if you don't think about movement and ranged fighting.

Snake is always difficult, though. But you need lots of firepower, whether it's melee, ranged, magic, summons, or whatever.

>>168044224
if you only play real roguelikes, youll never have to deal with cdda's BS

>>168044605
crawl branch progression is a meme, you can't just enter every branch as soon as you find it because most are big jumps in difficulty

lair -> dungeon to 15 -> orc ->lairbranch1 to 3 -> otherlairbranch to 3 -> one of the lairbranch runefloors -> second one if it isn't shoals -> vaults to 4 -> shoals4 -> depths to 5 -> vaults5 ->zot5 -> win

>>168045654
several of the devs are goons

>>168046213
>doing Shoals:4 after Vaults:1-4

naga, it's not THAT dangerous

Repel/Deflect Missiles and a wand of digging make things a lot easier.

>>168047232
it's not terrible but i wouldn't choose to do it BEFORE Vaults:1 when I already have the other lair rune. You can do it earlier, V:4 is just the time you naturally leave vaults anyways so you might as well head over and steamroll through shoals4

>>168046213

Or you could just clear Elf:3 because it's a huge chunk of freelootxp so you can skip non-rewarding Lair banches.

>You have to travel through the orcish mines to get to the Elven Halls
What was meant by this? Do the orcs work for the elves?

>>168046058
Real roguelikes are shit.
The best roguelikes are filled with gimmicks that make the whole thing fun, not muh tight design and total lack of fun. For example, IVAN is much more fun than any of the meme trio of real roguelikes.

>>168048184
>meme trio

What are these three?

>>168048026
Elves manipulate the orcs.

>>168048483
Brogue, Sil and IA. Sometimes one of them is replaced by Dynahack.
They may be roguelike, but they're not even funlite.

>>168048184
ivan is a real roguelike
cdda and elona are not

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>>168048026

Necromemeicon or Pain Infusion?

>>168050342
PAAAAIIINNNN

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>>168050342
pain is good :)

>>168050342
There's a spell that applies a temporary pain brand to your weapon, so you might as well just get the Necromeme.

>>168050342

Pain is shit. Just press otab walk away press 5 repeat to get the free 3 runes where pain is supposed to be useful

>>168050421
>>168050515
Should mention I have a -5 eveningstar glued to my hand, because I got excited and couldn't wait for an identify scroll. Have had it for ages now and I'm about to hit vaults, still haven't found a scroll to get rid of it.

>>168050773
well wait until you can uncurse it and slap your brand on something better

>>168050773
You should never use identify on weapons, it's too valuable. Have you seriously not found any remove curse?

>>168050879
you generally don't want to bother IDing weapons/armor unless they're artifacts
but also you shouldn't wear unIDed shit if you don't have any removecurse

Is it just me or is DCSS a bit easier in these later versions? Especially with corrode and drain being temporary.

>>168052006
dcss is easier because you have more experience playing it
>no rmsl
>no phaseshift
>no stoneskin
>no wand of haste/tele/HW
>no ctele
the game gets harder over time as the strong shit gets (trigger warning) removed

>>168052006

Crawl gets easier with every patch.

>>168052132
for some of those, you're mistaking convenient with strong. rmsl is convenient for a low-level character that stumbles across a centaur without cover nearby, since they don't have to pop a consumable as a result. Without it, you just use fear or speed or agi or blink or tele or fog or a wand or if you're a naga poison or if you're worshipping makh lesser destruction or chei you slow it or slouch or fedhas you just put a few plants in the way or dith you shadow step or if you're an elementalist you cast any one of your many spells or if you're a summoner you put your small fry in the way or if you're ranged you just shoot right back at it or etc.
inb4
>no rmsl is OP because without it you'd get assguttered by that centaur 100% of the time!

>>168052132
>>no wand of haste/tele/HW
I'm still mad about that.

>>168053376
rmsl is strong because it's a big survivability boost for a low xp investment
not just against centaurs, but also against shit like LCS or OOF bolt of fire
and being a level 3 spell, it could eventually be picked up by basically anyone other than a troglodyte or maybe a Mi/Tr in GDA

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Is the Hellfire Arbalest worth 1k gold if bought on D10?
And would it be worth the money and a heavy focus to reach min-delay? Or does it mulch all ammo, aka it's unusable?

>>168054159
i wouldn't buy it unless you're already heavily invested in xbows anon

>>168053376
except it's basically mandatory for mage characters in shoals, and it's useful in snake and vaults?

>>168054159
Nothing is ever worth it. Any 'good' weapon requires you to gimp your character by focusing on your weapon skill, and by the time it's usable you will find something better lying on the ground.

>>168054063
again, you're confusing convenient with strong. OOF are in Zot and unless you're speedrunning, which is another matter entirely, you are more than ready to deal with Bolt spells, especially since you've been dealing with them since Snake. OOF muts are the most dangerous thing about them, and rMut took care of that. LCS you are correct about, though, but the way to fix that is to remove Elf.

>>168054368
>mandatory
hahahaha, no, only if you're a badplayer that refuses to invest in survivability and likes to otab your way into mobs as a mage. Or you're a Wz that has not encountered a single spell book along the way to Shoals.

>try going into elf
>die to crystal spear on the last floor after making a kill hole too far away everything and attempting to kite them into it
I feel stupid but I also feel like I learned something

>>168041526
speech to text
with your toes

>>168054802
I have never done more otabbing than with my blaster caster
there's so much fucking trash popcorn in Pandemonium
>>168056297
he lost his legs, retard

>>168054802
by strong i don't mean "will carry you through the game"
rmsl is strong in the sense that it's almost always a good option and worth the xp investment (though not necessarily as soon as you find it)
it's EFFICIENT -- you get a relatively large bump in survivability compared to the cost of getting it online

this doesn't mean "rmsl is a free win", just "rmsl is an easy choice"

>>168056549
toes arent legs

>>168056549
with his dick

>>168056941
removing an appendage removes all lesser extremities attached to that appendage
>thx Dwarf Fortress Adventure Mode, I never would have figured that out without you

>>168057074
it's not true that in all cases losing both legs causes people to lose all their toes
sometimes people who lose a thumb in an accident get it surgically replaced with a toe

>>168056814
you can say that about nearly everything, though. Find a d2 elec whip? easy choice. Find a book of charms/air? easy choice. Find a randart spear with rPois rF+ rC+ rN+ as a caster? That shit isn't being unwielded until V or so. Find Maxwell's coffin as a troglodyte ant? easy choice. The only real hard choice in the game revolves around acq scrolls, and since they removed the easy choice wands, not even that is all that difficult.

>>168057607
well yes
and if the game removed elec whips, books of charms/air, or good early randarts, it would become harder
just like removing rmsl made the game harder

>>168044224
I stopped at stable 0.C or 0.B I don't remember, works fine

>>168057760
But it didn't, it just made it more inconvenient since now you most likely have to use a consumable for that D:4 centaur, or have to play intelligently against an OOF, or avoid elf until you can shrug off/around/away from LCS.

>Salt plains as caster
>Enemies pour in from all directions
>Run out of mana quickly
>No where to go to rest mana back up
>Die

It's happened like 7 times. What the fuck do you do.

>>168058710
be salty

>>168057760
No, it only makes the game harder for non-Troglodytes. Of course challenge backgrounds are going to be hard. Why are you complaining?

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>>168059031
Ya got me

>>168048184
I want to play IVAN.

Please teach me.

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>Playing wizard in DCSS
>finds randart very early on
>The +1 leather armor of fortification
>rPois Int+7

>>168061263
Don't grind. Try to have fun just playing instead of trying to win. Don't drink from bottles of sulphuric acid.

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>>168063442
>Playing melee in DCSS
>Find hundreds of spellbooks and robes
>Fine fuck you I'll roll a wizard
>Find this
Fuck it I'm training armor until I can cast in this shit I don't give a fuck anymore

>Ring of the Dwarves aggravates and drains experience inherently
How much would this screw me? 11 extra damage, stats, resists, and regen would be pretty nice at level 22.

Aggravate is a major pain in the ass in dungeons, the drain experience is inconsequential

>>168063636
>grind
there's that word again
We've already concluded that grinding is present in all games, and avoiding the grind simply means not playing the game

>>168058114
>MUH CONSUMABLES
>MUH RESOURCES
>RESOURCESSSSSS

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Oh my fucking God, this is my third (3rd) !newlife.

>>168066758
>the drain experience is inconsequential
It matters a lot at low levels when you're killing an orc for like 10 exp.

>>168058114
using a consumable instead of not using a consumable does in fact make the game harder, anon
because if you run out of consumables and you need one, you will die
if every combo got a free extra blink scroll on D:1 you would say the game was easier, right?

>>168065912
aggravate is awful

without Ag you can dive into super OOD dungeons, spam detection, and find great loot and xp pinatas to pick on
WITH Ag you need to be prepared to fight or destruct every enemy on the level, so it's very bad except possibly for endgame characters who actually ARE strong enough to fight everything they see on Ang:100

>>168068442
quaff a restore life potion
it's literally inconsequential unless you have less than 700 gold

I dont think it matters whether RMSL makes the game easier or not. What matters is that content is being eliminated for no good reason. When does this end? Why do the devs seem to hate the game?

>>168068402
>89
I didn't even know it went that low.

>>168066758
>>168068647
Damn it, that's what I was afraid of.

>>168069070
xp draining from cursed items doesn't scale with level, so if you're low enough it will drain you faster than you can kill shit to earn more xp
you would still have to be constantly chugging !restorelife to make any progress on gaining levels

>>168069070
>>168069431
It drains max exp so restore life doesn't even work.

>>168069125
Because original crawl was a mistake to begin with and the entire DCSS project is built on a bad foundation. Literally nothing about Linley's crawl is good.

so is this just me or is PCB completely unfun by roguelike standards?

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did i do good?

>>168071447
yes

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>>168068402
oh dear

>>168069295
it still feels pretty sweet to yolo your way through Arena dungeon floors as a warrior with two huge aggravation swords

>>168071447
it debens. I've not been feeling the spark to play lately, but it comes back a few times a year and I jamalam it intensively for a few weeks. A lot of the fun in PCB is exploring the huge amount of content and trying to play in the scariest possible floors that you can survive for maximum loot and xp. If you want you can just play on safer floors and take like 14 times as long to reach endgame level and equipment, but it's way more fun to feel a bit scared all the time.

>>168071464
are you trolling /lite/
why would you ever do that, just leave them be
can't you see I'm trying to suffer here

>>168072165
I wish I hated the early game less. Being scared is fun if you have ways to react.

>>168071464
>men
more like cute girls (male)

>>168071447
*bands are all too time consuming and boring except Sil

>>168075147
sil is a band in the same way that cdda is a roguelike

>>168075323
That's why it's the only one that isn't bad

>>168075147
You're right, Sil cuts out the "massively time consuming" part and keeps the boring.

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>>168075446
I see...

>>168075323
Sil is not a roguelike?

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>>168076393
somebody failed the section on analogies in their elementary school english classes~

>>168076393
Sil can be 'played' without grinding, so it doesn't even qualify as a game, much less a roguelike game.

>>168076783
counterpoint: gone home can also be played without grinding and is obviously a game

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Dungeon black markets are the best PCB feeling

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>>168077052
damn that one is pretty solid!
the AC on that ring mail with speed and str, the devices are literally all good (though disint is the worst of them since you rarely want a straight tunnel)
poison needle too

I mean damn

>>168076903
>obviously
It's not obvious if it's factually untrue. Games must have grinding in them by definition.

>>168078375
>play a summoner
>let your archlich army beat uniques down to 1hp while you hide around a corner
>snipe the last hitpoint off through the wall with the power of your disintbeam

as far as i can tell that's the only major use for them though
otherwise they're just a timesaver for one specific case of stone-to-mud usage while being useless for other digging

Sil has grinding. You spend about 1/3 of the game grinding 900-950' before going down to 1000'.

Is there a way to see your exact attack speed and how it is affected by various armors, when you are unarmed in DCSS?

>>168079590
if you're playing recent versions armor doesn't affect unarmed attack speed

to see your attack speed just ctrl-direction to attack the air and look at the turncount, which shows a number for the time taken by your last turn

>>168079590
There's a chart, but now that I'm looking at it, the formula for Unarmed Attack speed is just 1 - UC/54.

>>168079782
>armor doesn't affect unarmed attack speed anymore
lol what, you're joking with me right
I'm searching through the patch notes for this now

>>168079475
only if it's your first win and you're going over the top with it and/or are fixated on killing morgoth and need the two of the right sharpness weapons

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>>168080401
literally just 1.0 - UC/54, unless you are in a malpoly form in which case it depends on XL instead

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Deathsword 50 baby, we're cooking with gas now

>>168082278
post youre ~w

>try out that duelwield mod for DCSS
>"I know, I bet the most powerful combo is two shortblades of elec; I'll make a character to do just that"
>plan actually works out, have a cutlass and short sword of elec before I'm done with Lair
>4 elec-branded attacks per 10 auts
>still struggling to kill things because anything with AC only takes damage from the electricity procs
>most EXP went to paying for buffs like Regeneration and Ozo's Armor, so I don't really have backups in case I ever run into something with both AC and rElec
Thank God for crosstraining and Heroism. If it wasn't for that, I'd be in a pinch. As is, I've only wasted 14 skill levels of EXP on Short Blades, and now I can use this +6 vorpal bastard sword that Donald dropped to not die immediately in Depths.

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>>168082278
7 more for vampiric, 15 more for slay evil

>>168076515

I see, so Sil isn't a roguelike. I didn't know of this because I'm new.

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>when that young multi-hued dragon turns out to be kavlax
You'd think I would learn one of these times.

>>168075446
It isn't anything other than bad, though.
Tedious, bland, unsatisfying, and not even well designed because lmao 950 grind.

>>168069125

Who knows and who cares, I already have 20 caster wins and I never touched RMSL even once. By the time you need either RMSL or DMSL, you already have the spellcasting and Int to easily settle for the latter. I knew from the start that it's a bloat spell that's bound to be removed by the devils sooner or later because they were already spouting redundancy or some shit way before I even started.

>>168084506
>he doesn't play with a monsterlist subwindow
i've splatted to shit like that even wtih the monsterlist visible when i wasnt paying attention

>>168084239
Don't melee classes have better damage than that?

>>168085516
they do
sword/ring are pretty weak actually

>>168084665
Every roguelike is shit. We come here to play bad games out of masochism.

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>>168085516
found the minmaxing scum

reconsider your miserable life!

>>168078447
>Games must have grinding in them by definition.
What fucking Bizzaro World definition of "grinding" are YOU using?

>>168086552

Retard. Do you unironically think that grinding is only "kill 10 orcs to get the goods" kind of bullshit? Stop being dumb, getting exp on every single playthrough is literally the same.

>>168027526
I've been playing more Crown of Glory in Demon recently. I think it might be my favorite relic, not only for quick summon and quick dismiss, but I also really like the starting abilities. I just splatted a dude trying to assemble an all charged and ionic team; I was on the eleventh floor and I had yet to even see any kitsune.

Can PCB's skill master replicate normal classes, or will it be lacking compared to the original?

>>168091149
you have to pay a price for versatility
if skillmaster COULD become an equally-good version of a normal class, it would be OP -- why would you pick mage if skillmaster could be just as good at spellcasting while also having other options

>>168086552
he's being retarded on purpose

>>167972120
so how did it turn out

>>167981731
>navigating empty rooms isn't the majority of the gameplay in any roguelikes i can think of anon
feels like PCB is exactly this

>>168092404
you know you can shift-move right

>>168092053
he was just shitposting about roguebasin being awful and listing notaroguelikes >>167974684

>>167975169
>it was never a fun feature
Don't funshame me you cisgamer.

>>168092848
maybe I should dive more, but I always figuratively kill myself out of boredom after clearing the first 8 floors where literally nothing interesting happens. most rooms are empty if there isn't a lice/worm swarm and the loot is awful.

>>168095387
You're describing the first 1.5% of the game

>>168095387
>clearing floors
do not do this in a *band anon
this is a dumb thing to do

>>168096036
To be fair, it's an incredibly dull 1.5%.

>>168095387
>clearing entire floors in PCB
Don't do that, especially not in the early game.

>>168095387
Of course it's boring if ya make it boring...
You can use the bandit and warg quests to rocket you to around level 15, after that, just increase your level a tad and go hunt hydras/clear deeper floors until ya can beat the dungeon boss.

>>168096036
>>168096126
>>168096179
I figured that that's where I'm failing, but it hurts me so much to leave that sweet, sweet XP just sitting on the floor.

Is there any /rlg/ approved *band or even PCB gameplay on youtube? I'm curious how an advanced players tackles the earlygame.

>>168097137
I've never done anything else than to go into the first dungeon to the east of town and bump shit until the floor is empty.

>tfw Demon is going to have mummies
>tfw i'll finally be able to make a MuMo team

>>168097973
I'm not sure when they will appear, though. Maybe they could be zombie-like tanks with decent cunning that appear starting at Tower:21 and later.

I'm expecting them to have resistances like this:

Resist: body, dark, ice
Weak: fire, light, electricity

>>168097582
There's always XP in the banana stand. It's tempting to clear, but a lot of enemies just aren't worth the effort.

As the other anon said, go to the mayor in town and do the bandit and warg quests. Tankier fighty types can often do bandits right out of the gate and that'll either kill you or get you a couple levels. At that point you can probably dive right to d:5 and do the wargs, especially if you stairdance (PCB gives you xp for hitting stuff rather than only for the killing blow). On a race/class without stupid high multipliers, that's somewhere around level 10 in about five minutes, especially if you toggle small levels on.

>>168097582
>it hurts me so much to leave that sweet, sweet XP just sitting on the floor
this game isn't crawl. there are infinite more floors. it's not like if you skip straight to level 5 you'll permanently be 4 floors behind on xp
and in fact the deeper floors have MORE xp and loot, so spending way too long at the easy depths is basically losing out on xp compared to diving

>youtube
i don't know of any rlg approved shit
there's like one or two guys who do pcb on youtube i think but i haven't watched the videos personally

>>168097973
>mumo will never be cool again

>>168097582
Here's a recording I did of CLvl 1 to Stronghold 15.
https://youtu.be/ZZ4sb6M-8CA?t=5m20s

The next four videos cover a standard path to getting to midgame as a Zeus Monk of Nature.

They're pretty long and boring though.

I'm kinda miffed that skillmaster doesn't have any of the more interesting spell domains/techs like hex, song, etc...

>>168098578
>crawl will never be cool again
this is the worst timeline

>>168098728
imma check that one out later, thanks.

>>168098736
Probably because it would be so much better than the original class with those realms.

Though, yeah, skillmaster is kind of disappointing in that most of your choices end up making you into a cheap plastic imitation of a warrior/mage/rogue.

>>168068530
You'd be right about it being harder if the game didn't overload you with consumables to the point where you walk around with double-digit stacks of panic buttons. "Oh no, I have 9 escape scrolls instead of 12" doesn't mean the game is harder unless you have autism and think 9 is a satanic number or something. Likewise, everyone starting with a blink scroll doesn't make the game easier, it just means you don't have to play as intelligently since you have that panic button to start out with. If you actually cared about making the game harder, you would make panic buttons non-permanent; perishable in some way. Perhaps they could be destroyed by enemy attacks? Then you'd actually make the game harder, like removing all those wands did. But removing things like rmsl doesn't increase the difficulty, just makes it more inconvenient for the player.

Imagine this
Trog removed

>>168102961
trog is the only balanced god though
everything else is a challenge option

>>168102961
What about if trog punished scroll use?

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Worshiping Trog now gives Slow Reading 3

>>168103274
what if trog punished any magic use in general, including devices, alchemical concoctions, and enchantmented equipment
what if chei actually disliked you going fast
what if elyvilon actually cared about life
what if vehumet was good

>>168104103
>what if vehumet was good
- * You have been banned from ##crawl-dev on irc.freenode.org

>>168086552

You're bizarre. All games definitely have grinding in them.

>>168104103

Those ability buffs on Sif were retarded. He already gives unlimited books why the hell does he need an ability that's basically literally unlimited mana? I'll get that nerfed or removed someday.

good night /rlg/

dream of vorpal multipliers for me

>tfw no artifact with vorpal manabrand vampirism *slay* evil but 0d0 damage dice

>>168108653
ok

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reminder: @ is a cozy man in a big scarf

>>168112691

>devs hate no-brainers
>add another auxiliary armor

>>168112881
they occupy the cloak slot actually
so you are choosing between useful ego or +2ac

>>168112940

more choices and more opportunity to fill an aux slot is a no brainer

>>168098578

I hope there's a new crawl challenge...

>>168112940
More than +2.

I'm still doing Lab Challenge, my previous char was killed by mi-go and zombie brute when he got out of lab with 20% health.
It's hard to do this challenge if I don't spend skills on cooking / computer.
I can't craft grenade without at least 7 cooking and I can't enter the armory with just 3 computer skill.

Anyway,with only 1 point, Ursine Vision is way superior than Night vision (2 points)

With 10 Perception

Night Vision Range : 4
High Night Vision Range : 6
Full Night Vision Range : 12

Ursine Vision Range : 6 + Near-Sighted
Ursine Vision costs 1 point but almost equals with High Night Vision.

Of course, I can easily break this challenge by putting 5-6 points in trap skill.
That should easily diarm teleport trap, but it's not really challenging.

>>168112940
Hat slot.

File: adom.png (15KB, 724x428px) Image search: [Google]

15KB, 724x428px

So it's the forest this time.

Has a DeCk of nemelex ever been won?

>>168104057
underrated

>>168115876
think of the XP!

>>168115795
Nah, it's really cloak.

>>168116176
>4 games for * (deck nemelex won): hyperbolic, johnnyzero, Kellhus, magistern

>>168114162
Generally I just get cannibal, since it solves the food problem (mutation-inducing body parts/fetuses first, and hundreds of human corpses after).
After that, it's just grinding your skills out with books/searching for more books/water (which there's no shortage of)...

>>168108653
Reminder that DCSSCA doubles the effectiveness of vorpal weapons.

is "always generate interesting rooms" harder or easier?

DIIIIE PIIIIIGS

I'LL KILL YOU ALL

I'LL KILL YOU ALL

>>168120172
Early on it forbids you from going into any dungeon. After you have detect and /teleOther you can farm bubble and GCV vaults for infinite exceptional drops.

>>168118106
Well, I don't really like killing dynamic NPC just for food.
I want to get out from that place asap to remove 10+ faulty bionic installations.
Broken Cyborg can't sleep and heal properly, so I take Fast Healing this run, and it's really helpful.
Thanks to Robust Genetic, when I chug mutagen, I get Very Fast Healer, Phelloderm and Vine Limbs (shitty 10+ encumbrance).

Still, I don't like the fact that I'm really dependant on teleporter to get out of that place.

File: flash of light.png (247KB, 1914x1042px) Image search: [Google]

247KB, 1914x1042px

>>168084506
>kavlax the many-colored breathes gravity!

>>168086196
oooh greater vault hot damn that one is a huge one

>>168098728
hey, that was pretty interesting. now I need to think of a good bumping combo and maybe then I can actually enjoy the game!

>>168120501
well, that just sounds silly

>>168123775
You don't even need NPCs, the labs just have human corpses laying around them...