/poeg/ - Path of Exile General

>>150599091
nth for trading is too hard GGG needs to protect me from meanie hagglers

>>150599820
Imagine how much autism could have been spared if catposter just learned how to get gud without feeling shafted every time he RMTs gear on his latest failure of a character.

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Woah we hit a new general without the last one dying on its own?

Thats amazing, im proud of you /poeg/!

>>150600001
It's all thanks to your well-timed posts every time the thread was on its way to page 11, my dear weeb friend

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>>150600108
This might surprise you anon but I'm not actually weeb anon I just like weeb pictures too

See, look at my post number. I'm number 1, you can't say that about weeb anon

fixed trade autie:

>subjective valuation of currency aggregates creates unfairness and enables lots cheating

>my subjective valuation of transactional protocol fixes unfairness while only destroying any semblance of player-driven economy and still doing nothing about cheating

so its all about not feeling scammed?

>>150600481
You'll never feel scammed if you ask 3c for anything you're too lazy to look up, esp since asking for offers will get you something around there anyways.

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>>150599903
>people actually think i rmt

>>150600979

you fit the profile

>attentionwhore/craves for recognition
>actually shit at the game
>cant even do normal atziri

>>150601286
no. i don't post nearly as much as you think i do

objectively false

why would i risk my character doing irrelevant content, or content i could pay someone a few chaos to do for me?

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>>150601353

>cant do any form of endgame
>thinks he aint shit

>>150601353
>normal atziri
>a risk to your character
holy FUCK you're garbage

>>150602283
post a list of builds you've killed atziri with

>>150602445
Elementalist and pick a skill that isn't 100% absolute trash. Hell I might try it with ele hit.
Burning arrow's my favourite though.

>>150600979
We both know it's true. The sad thing is it's not a reputation you earned by being a top player and consequently attracting jealousy. You RMT and you're still a shit player. At least try to be a havoc kind of player if you're going to tip the scale in your favor.

Mithia is a huge faggot that has a degree in gender studies and does not eat meat

>>150604530
gender studies is gay af but eating meat is murder

second of all we don't use the f word here

>>150602770
>designing builds specifically to kill atziri
>in 2016

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i can get 32 challenges pretty easily but the last 4 will take a while

>>150605904
he's saying the opposite moron
he's saying you don't need jack shit to kill Atziri, even Elementalist can do it even though her biggest weapon (conflux) is all but useless against Atziri

>>150606364
>>150606364
i really don't read any of your posts twobh

>1 hour without a post

>>150609924
hi

>>150613641
DELETE THIS YOU FUCKING WEEBSHIT

Nice general poetards

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Hit 94 with doomfletch prism prolif in HC yesterday, can't be bothered to do any more rotations.

Lv 90 lab runner juggernaut.

I'm tired of these builds and there's still a month left of this dogshit league.

Recommend some builds that aren't complete dogshit in theory and I'll try one or two of them out.

>>150620708
flicker non oros

>>150620708
do you want to level up together

i got top 200 in endless ledge. i won't slow you down...

>>150621729

r u a gril?

>>150621785
if you want me to be...

>>150602445
not guy you were arguing with, but atziri is easy as fuck, it is a mechanical fight not a gear check.
i have cleared atziri with at least 15 different characters, animate weapon being one of my Favorited to clear her it.

>>150621853

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>>150622757
its still a high risk to take when a chaos takes care of it. recently i stopped paying for vaal and piety kills but only because cruel and merc labs cost currency early on, but even those pose a risk that anyone who isn't retarded would avoid

>>150623019
>vaal
>risk

lmfao

>>150621729
First I have to decide on build.

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I'll admit, predetermined pricing is just too extreme for PoE. That's not because it wouldn't work but because the developers have to be capable of actually achieving the goals they set fourth.

For example, they laid the groundwork for all kinds of competitive meta in PoE years ago. Yet still, all we have is a handful of autists poopsocking to #1 on the ladder, a handful of RMT autists in standard leagues spending all their asspie money on Exalt stacks from playerauctions and nothing else.

If GGG had made PoE into a more competitive game by focusing on the engine's fluidity, bringing player instance invading, having top tier in game leaderboard and player statistics functions and a full UI for the race seasons in game with compelling rewards...

If all of the above were true and players outside of the select few started feeling like there was a little bit of worthwhile competitive meta game, they'd start taking the cheating side a little more seriously.

This is where predetermined prices make a lot more sense. Let's say hypothetically speaking, if PoE were nearly a perfect game and players cared more about who was rich and who was winning, they might be more open to an economic system that severely hampers botters and kills RMT.

That's kinda what I hoped PoE would turn into. Obviously it didn't. Most of the stuff that attracted me to the game six years ago never panned out. But I still keep my dreams alive.

All of the objections to predetermined pricing I've read have nothing to do with it. They're all opinions about the way things currently work and not how they'd work with predetermined pricing. Where instead of player opinion of the price deciding value, player deciding what to keep determines what they are capable of profiting from.

Thanks for taking the time to read my post, reddit. See you in the maps!

>>150625282
>Where instead of player opinion of the price deciding value, player deciding what to keep determines what they are capable of profiting from.

you are still making people decide on a value, just making the ignore their valuation and accept whatever arbitrary amount of currency said item amounts to

thats one of the main problems of fixed trade: being unsatisfying. and this is a game after all

>>150624209
Decided on assreacher. IGN UltimaOnline.
Leveling now on p-hc

>>150626067
>UltimaOnline.

should go play albion ultimafag

>>150626046
>you are still making people decide on a value
No, you are deciding what to keep. Keeping an item because it's valuable is the decision, not deciding the item's value. English isn't your first language, is it?

>making the ignore their valuation and accept whatever arbitrary amount of currency
It isn't arbitrary at all. In fact, it's far less arbitrary than the current system where prices are largely dictated by whoever can control item stock and flip currency as well as RMT. It uses the most fundamental aspect of items: its mods in order to determine price. If an item has a mod, it can have a currency value attached to it, your opinion of what that value should be notwithstanding.

>thats one of the main problems of fixed trade: being unsatisfying. and this is a game after all
The vast majority of players aren't satisfied in any way with the current trade system. It's only the few market simulator autists trying to defend it.

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Why act 4 is so shit? It ruined the whole game.

>>150627064
>No, you are deciding what to keep. Keeping an item because it's valuable is the decision, not deciding the item's value. English isn't your first language, is it?

It seems it isn't your either. If you have a constant, unlimited influx of items as leveling/grinding is accomplished, and limited inventory space; you are forced to not only decide what to keep in terms if it being sellable or not, but in terms of what drives a higher price. They are deciding what to keep based on its value, the difference is they no longer control said value and profit when a given item is in higher demand than normal or make a quick sale by undercutting the average.

This is unsatisfying.

>It uses the most fundamental aspect of items

I would say the most fundamental aspect of an item is its usefulness in the current meta. Mods can stay the same, usefulness can change thou different leagues, and hence price should change according to demand and supply.

>players aren't satisfied

no one but you is satisfied with your alternative

>>150628050
>It seems it isn't your either.
No, it is.

>you are forced to not only decide what to keep in terms if it being sellable or not, but in terms of what drives a higher price.
You do not decide in any way what drives a higher price. A good player who understands game mechanics would know what players are more likely to buy than not. This doesn't require you to have any knowledge of the specific currency value of items. Players with enough wealth will pay whatever for an item. Your job is to know what will sell, not what to price the item at. There is a correlation between the two, they are not one in the same in any way.

>I would say the most fundamental aspect of an item is its usefulness in the current meta.
That is true when deciding which item to use, not when assessing the sum of an item's parts.

>no one but you is satisfied with your alternative
What I said is a fact: the vast majority aren't satisfied with the current trade system hence why GGG has been trying to change it for virtually the entire duration of the game's existence and as evidenced by constant forum discussions.
The alternative being proposed is virtually unknown and the only objections are poor and limited to a few market simulator autists. I intend to keep it that way. It entertains me to know a perfect solution exits and the general populace is too fucking stupid to implore it. It reminds me of how much better the world would be if it weren't run by retards like you.

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Would you play an ARPG made by these girls?

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>>150628618

>Your job is to know what will sell, not what to price the item at.


If market price SHOULD not matter, just market viability, what motivates one to look for and sell specific combinations of mods/bases that cater to niche builds? currently its the fact that i can sell those for more; but under your system market viability should motive people to only care to sell generalist item or stuff that only matters on the most FOTM builds on each league.

Basically you turn an econ thats based on opportunistic barter and light capitalism into wage-like volume trading

how is that fun?


>That is true when deciding which item to use, not when assessing the sum of an item's parts.

You dont think there is a problem when atomic item composition triumps usefulness in determining price? That is not how player-based trade works.

>The alternative being proposed is virtually unknown and the only objections are poor and limited to a few market simulator autists

Anyone who plays poe for a while is either a market sim autie or a ssf autie. Either way your system takes out the fun for them or is completely irrelevant. The entirety of your argument is quite easy see flaws in, specially as you avoid any form of specificity regarding the actual item pricing part.

still trying to get those damn black stone prophecies.

>>150627175
really? i didnt mind the escalation of it all--take out piety and dominus who wwere twisted by malachai, take out malachai who is busy trying to eat mountain-satan-magicsource for the old wipe out the world ploy.

the only thing i had issue with WAS malachai being so successful at it--this thing is ageless, timeless, and has personally orchestraed the downfall of countless civilizations--the most recent being the fall of the eternal empire and convincing kaom that not only was he not satan, but he was actually a god and kaom should totally go kill all the karui (and, yknow, the whole mayan quadboob apocalypse). for something that intelligent and powerful, I've got no goddamn idea how malachai would have even gotten within spitting distance of that damn mountain without the beast's say-so.

>>150629623
>If market price SHOULD not matter, just market viability, what motivates one to look for and sell specific combinations of mods/bases that cater to niche builds?
Player's need currency and items. Motivations doesn't change that fact. If there's a player seeking niche items, there's a player keeping niche items. Just like in the current system, a player would have more success not keeping niche items and instead using their space for more popular well known items that sell quicker. As in my system the same applies.

>under your system market viability should motive people to only care to sell generalist item or stuff that only matters on the most FOTM builds on each league
You haven't in any way described the extent of this. You're just flat out saying, "b-but players won't keep the item I need anymore!" but there's no supporting reason for this. Your argument can be reduced down much further: NEEDS. Player A needs item Player B has. Everything past that point in word salad.

>Basically you turn an econ thats based on opportunistic barter and light capitalism into wage-like volume trading
Market simulator autism isn't fun. Exceedingly few players partake in it. That's a fundamental problem, not a valuable feature. It enabled RMT and botting to a higher scale than what would be capable in a predetermined price system.

>You dont think there is a problem when atomic item composition triumps usefulness in determining price? That is not how player-based trade works.
It's more useful to market simulator autists to control the economy, not to players of the game.

>The entirety of your argument is quite easy see flaws in, specially as you avoid any form of specificity regarding the actual item pricing part.

>The entirety of your argument is quite easy see flaws in, specially as you avoid any form of specificity regarding the actual item pricing part.
If the flaws are easy to see, why can't you name a single one and have it stand up to scrutiny?

Got a key for me, fag?

>>150630860 was meant for >>150626643

>>150627175
act 3 is worse

I just sold an exalted orb for 78 chaos

ask me anything

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>Player A needs item Player B has. Everything past that point in word salad.

On a free market econ Player B has the item Player A needs because B knows A needs it and can profit from A. Pricing is derived from metagame-usefulness value and item supply.

Under your system there is no clear relationship between an atomic-composition derived deterministic pricing system and its metagame-usefulness value, so how do you make it so that Player B isn't motivated to sell anything but items that while being market viable, also drive higher deterministic pricing and he is also forced to sell in volume instead of attacking market niches that would not only mean slower sales, but potentially less currency from each sale because again, atomistic determinism pricing has no regard for usefulness.

>If the flaws are easy to see, name one

Its unsatisfying. Feels like you go from being a medieval stock broker to a medieval wagecuck farmer.

And you can be a wagecuck farmer right now if you want, using currency recipes.

>>150632308
oops this was meant for >>150630430

>>150631261

why do you play softcore?

>>150630210
i think you got it backwards. malachai was just """"the beast's""""" pawn

Am I autistic for
- picking up every piece with a quality modifier (for gems)
- picking up any piece of rare equipment and frequently going to town to stash it away
- carefully looking through the loot to not miss eny good slot combinations (for chromatics for example)

Leveling with my brother and he's constantly rushing me. I should cut down on my hoarding obsession.
Thanks for reading my blog.

>>150630430
>why can't you name a single one
you have the memory of a goldfish

>>150632834
Use a good item filter: that way you can immediately spot items for recipes or with quality.

Stashing rares aint worth it early on, just pick up what you can and vendor/use it.

After you reach merciless a4+ start stashing rares for chaos/regal recipe.

>>150632308
>On a free market econ Player B has the item Player A needs because B knows A needs it and can profit from A. Pricing is derived from metagame-usefulness value and item supply.
The point you're making reduces down to the amount of currency a player can get out of a niche item, not whether or not a player is capable of selling them. The argument of whether or not a player will keep or sell them reduces down to needs as has been and will be restated every time you reintroduce this failed point.

>so how do you make it so that Player B isn't motivated to sell anything but items that while being market viable, also drive higher deterministic pricing and he is also forced to sell in volume instead of attacking market niches that would not only mean slower sales, but potentially less currency from each sale because again, atomistic determinism pricing has no regard for usefulness.
For one, slower sales doesn't matter. Some things sell more/less in either system. You're cherry picking a niche case scenario and then weighting it far heavier as if to say this specific scenario is more important than others while failing to support that the prior is any better than the latter. I have given perfect reason why in both cases niche items sell: need. Players need currency and items. Less players keep niche items in both cases. You are unable to quantify the difference or why it even matters. In some cases some niche items will sell better in my system than in the current.

>Its unsatisfying. Feels like you go from being a medieval stock broker to a medieval wagecuck farmer.
K but you'll have to support your statement with facts and you haven't.

>>150633254
I'm using http://ziggyd.tv/featured/ziggyds-loot-filter/
Still a lot of clutter, but I like to be sure that nothing I MIGHT like get's cut.

Yeah, I probably should just pick up stuff that might be useful for me, or my alts and ignore the rest.

Probably a good idea to just rush the game till then.

Thanks m8.

>>150633247
You have the reading comprehension of a migrant toddler. Name one point that has stood. We'll wait.

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Reminder the game rewards you for being clever and is specifically designed to be that way. Catshitter is assravaged his poor understanding of the game and its meta is not allowing him to get rich and lashing out at a system he can't benefit from as much as others who have played as long as him have. He wants a dumbed down game where decision making, from choosing what kind of build you play, to which areas to speed farm, to what items one chooses to keep, to what uniques one chooses to hoard or aggressively sell, to what gems one chooses to level in off-hand, to what enchant one chooses to attempt to land on a specific base -- all of that is removed from the player.

His lack of basic game understanding goes further than that: he seems to delude himself into thinking an item's worth, when separated from player's evaluation, can be summed up by a weighted sum of its mods, even though

a) several uniques are designed to be versatile, meaning not each and every of their mods should be weighed equally across all builds who would use them.
GGG designs some uniques with a wide affix roll for a reason: to give the players the freedom to decide how they choose to use a unique according to their character's needs and budget, and how it evolves with the meta.

b) most rare items have conflicting combinations of affixes. This is what make t1 rares with no conflicting affixes special and sought after, this is the carrot at the end of the stick for end game players. Chaos resistance is extremely valuable in most rare items, except those that would fit a CI build perfectly, in which case it becomes a literal dead weight.

Path of Exile is a game that rewards knowledge. Catshitter wants to be rewarded for just mindlessly grinding shit maps 12 hours a day and not giving a single thought about how to elevate his game above. He wants to bring down everyone to his level of retardedness because he cannot bring himself to the level of actual good players.

>>150633994
The first criticism that is always brought is that values change and keeping up with the market would require an enormous and constant amount of work by the developers to both accurately reflect the market value of mods and prevent exploitation.
>muh algorithms
loooooool

>>150634075
> several uniques are designed to be versatile, meaning not each and every of their mods should be weighed equally across all builds who would use them.
They don't need to be. The value of an item doesn't need to perfectly reflect how powerful it is. It's not that way in the current system it doesn't need to be that way in mine. It just needs to be consistent and it accomplishes that by using the intended power of the sum of an item's parts. In the case of uniques specifically, GGG already places them in tiers and as such, the price is a reflection of said tiers. Whether or not you agree/disagree with the price no longer matters as your opinion on item price isn't part of the trade system.

> most rare items have conflicting combinations of affixes. This is what make t1 rares with no conflicting affixes special and sought after, this is the carrot at the end of the stick for end game players. Chaos resistance is extremely valuable in most rare items, except those that would fit a CI build perfectly, in which case it becomes a literal dead weight.
Nothing you posted rebuts anything in a predetermined price system. "Conflicting" is only relevant in the current system. With predetermined prices, the conflicting aspect is represented in the item's currency value mod. Your opinion on the final value doesn't matter as you don't price the items.

>Catshitter wants to be rewarded for just mindlessly grinding shit maps 12 hours a day and not giving a single thought about how to elevate his game above. He wants to bring down everyone to his level of retardedness because he cannot bring himself to the level of actual good players.
My system rewards knowledge better because players can spend more time learning the game rather than countless hours spent with autistic hagglers who don't understand game mechanics and it rewards item mod knowledge and metagame knowledge equally as the richest players will find clever ways in selecting which items to keep.

>>150634296
>the market would require an enormous and constant amount of work by the developers to both accurately reflect the market value of mods
The same could be said for affix tiers or any other item property or map mod or anything else. The fact is 99% of the work is done up front by associating a currency value with each mod after that, token balancing of said values is all that's needed because ultimately the price of items isn't decided by you.

>prevent exploitation
It's far easier to prevent exploitation as it requires constantly hording an obscene amount of junk to transfer currency between accounts whereas the current system any idiot with their dad's credit card can visit playerauctions and buy Exalt stacks. Not anymore.

>>150634928
>Nothing you posted rebuts anything in a predetermined price system.
conflicting modes make the item more expensive while making it worse. core mods would be high value and if you have core mods for 3 different builds the item will be like triple the value of an item that's much more valuable because all of its mods contribute to a single build.

Fixed prices are retarded in general but your specific system is especially bad by just having values for mods.

>>150633723
I'm making point of niche items because many "innovative" builds that pop up are built around those. And the lack of correlation between metagame-value and atomic deterministic pricing means you have little incentive to attempt selling those, and specially if said item's atomic composition is rare, there is no way to profit from that rarity (other than RMTing the "right to buy it"). You think it's a failed point because of your own unstated assumption regarding atomic deterministic valuation which you have always refused to detail.

The main complain about trading is people pricing shit arbitrarily or trying to scam you yet, ultimately if you think a rare item SHOULD sell for more in your system, you can force-bundle it with other crap items as a means to make people pay more (and others would follow suit or undercut you) or simply resort to RMT. I guarantee that this would happen. Because ultimately, monopolies and manipulation are entirely possible if you control supply, which is possible even in your system. And people wanting to get the most out of items would follow suit.

That's what is unsatisfying: you have to skirt around fixed pricing using bundling tricks or be a wage farmer. And like i mentioned, you can already be a wage slave right now if you chose to.

Its unfun because the tension behind item valuation is deflated due to atomic deterministic pricing that is unconnected from metagame-value usefulness

And its a bad idea because only you like it.

>>150635167
>The same could be said for affix tiers or any other item property or map mod or anything else.
No it can't because demand simply makes mods worth more to players who are willing to pay more so other players will sell the items to them. If the value of your algorithm is off by a small margin then the price is either too high for players to be willing to pay for the item so sellers will just have to vend it or store it in their stash until a patch is released that changes the affix values in a way that only benefits them (highly unlikely) or the price is too low and the supply evaporates instantly and players who really want those items for their build have no opportunity to get what they want no matter how much they want it.

>>150635353
>conflicting modes make the item more expensive while making it worse
That sounds about right. Why should an item with shit mods be more sought after? If the case where you would need to buy such an item, there would be no supply of a cheaper better item. In most cases, your shit rolls aren't rewarded and that's how it should be. This isn't in any way an argument against my idea, it's just different from the current system.

>Fixed prices are retarded in general but your specific system is especially bad by just having values for mods.
You haven't supported this statement in any way. You're only stating how things will work differently. In some cases a player would get far more currency than they would in the current system, in some less. Different =/= worse, it means different if you think it's worse you need to support your statement. All you've done above is restated your opinion on what item's should be worth which in my system no longer matters.

>certain popular unique chest goes for 40c
>same chest w/ 5L goes for 100c
>jeweller's touch is 20c
how has this not been corrected already? Free money for me

>>150635896
>That sounds about right.
>Bad items should be expensive and good items should be cheap
never go full retard

>>150634928
>They don't need to be. The value of an item doesn't need to perfectly reflect how powerful it is. [...]
Missing the point. The tier of the unique according to its rarity was never in question here. I'm talking about one specific unique who has, for example, a defensive mod and an offensive mod. Should those be weighed equally? If not, why? If one player chooses to use said unique for defensive purposes, why should he be favored or not over another who chooses to use it for offensive purposes? It is not "my" opinion of the unique that is in question here. Such a unique would be designed to be used by various builds and types of players (the ones that prioritizes defense, the ones that prioritizes offense). A system that imposes a weighted price on such a unique would take away much of the complexity of its design.

>Nothing you posted rebuts anything in a predetermined price system.
'Rebut' is not a verb. The noun is rebuttal, the verb you're looking for is refute. Don't ask people if English is their first language, if I, as non native English speaker, have to correct you on your grammar. You dumb catshitter.

An item with conflicting mods is conflicting under any system, denying that only shows further proof you don't know the first thing about the game. How would your system price an excellent CI item (tri-res, no life, high ES) that also happens to have a t1 chaos resistance? Is it worth more or less than if it were the same, except for that chaos resistance mod? Do you create more rules, more exceptions for each and every conflicting combination?

>>150635937
shh don't tell them idiot

>>150635937

Retards overprice to their own detriment. You can 5l something for far less than 60c worth of fuses even if you use vorichi.

>>150635608
>And the lack of correlation between metagame-value and atomic deterministic pricing means you have little incentive to attempt selling those
The incentive is demand just as in the previous system. Niche items have less demand in the current system which makes them harder to sell. In my system some niche items will have demand and cost more and still be purchased, thus netting the player more currency than in the current system. In some situations an item a player would previously have bought will cost too much, they will buy a different item instead and players will keep that item instead. It's the same idea, shifted to a different item.

>Its unfun because the tension behind item valuation is deflated due to atomic deterministic pricing that is unconnected from metagame-value usefulness
The tension you mean, "lookup price on poe.trade and price accordingly". That's what 99% of the trading population does and what is suggested every time a price inquiry is made.

>>150635809
>No it can't because demand simply makes mods worth more to players who are willing to pay more so other players will sell the items to them
Desirable map mods determine which ones players roll for more. Desirable affix tiers determine which ones players craft for more. Everything can be reduced down similarly.

> If the value of your algorithm is off by a small margin then the price is either too high for players to be willing to pay for the item so sellers will just have to vend it
It doesn't matter at all as the algorithm doesn't need to perfectly reflect your opinion of item value. The value of the item directly corresponds to the sum of its mods. Players will choose items that at the time seem to fit their value better based on their subjective opinion of value.

>>150636285
I didn't. I also happen to know this item is going to see a huge spike in demand soon as well

>>150636704
Luckily there are people in this world who search and buy for convenience sake

>>150636257
>I'm talking about one specific unique who has, for example, a defensive mod and an offensive mod. Should those be weighed equally?
It ultimately doesn't matter because the system doesn't seek to perfectly reflect the value of a mod. So long as the valuation is consistent across mods, players will be able to compare item values and determine the best deals, most bang for the buck, etc.

>If one player chooses to use said unique for defensive purposes, why should he be favored or not over another who chooses to use it for offensive purposes?
Again, this reduces down to thinking the system has to perfectly reflect power. It doesn't. The current system doesn't. For the longest time players were capable of clearing everything with a 20c Flameblaster compared to an all Mirror build. There's no reason to conclude the system suggested has to perfectly balance the inherent value of offensive and defensive mods. Many, many different combinations will arise from it some favoring one or the other based on value.

>'Rebut' is not a verb. The noun is rebuttal, the verb you're looking for is refute. Don't ask people if English is their first language, if I, as non native English speaker, have to correct you on your grammar. You dumb catshitter.
Saying, "Nothing you posted rebuttal anything" is incorrect English, retard.

>How would your system price an excellent CI item (tri-res, no life, high ES) that also happens to have a t1 chaos resistance? Is it worth more or less than if it were the same, except for that chaos resistance mod?
Because the entire pricing system no longer encompasses your opinion on what should cost more or less, it doesn't matter. Just as in the current system, wealthly players will irrationally play inferior builds with expensive items.

>>150636746
>In my system some niche items will have demand and cost more and still be purchased

You are still avoiding any form of specificity regarding how this is accomplished. Basically "trust me guys! this will work, i wont say how, but i know it will!"


And you didnt address how your system combats bundling monopolies and artificial price manipulation, which pretty much defeats the notion of "fixed" pricing and brings us back to where we are now.

>>150637215
>Because the entire pricing system no longer encompasses your opinion on what should cost more or less, it doesn't matter. Just as in the current system, wealthly players will irrationally play inferior builds with expensive items.
And forgot to include the other part: Some items will be worth more/less in my system. You could find tons of examples of the former and latter but neither is an argument against it as in one case a player will become wealthier and the other poorer. Your point concludes some items will now be shit that should be good; no, they shouldn't. Players will seek better rolled items instead of accepting items with a bunch of shit mods except under worst case scenario.

>>150637315
>You are still avoiding any form of specificity regarding how this is accomplished
The only specificity needed is that the weight of an item's value is determined by the sum of its mods. This will undoubtedly create many different scenarios: some where items that were worth more before are worth less and less before worth more. This is called common sense. All you're doing is cherry picking an example where something you feel should be worth more is worth less. Guess what, sunshine? That's how the current system is and my system makes zero delusions about thinking everything would be perfectly priced according to power. It doesn't need to be.

>And you didnt address how your system combats bundling monopolies
Monopolizing an item is a strategy there's no reason to combat it.
>artificial price manipulation
The price can't be manipulated. The price is predetermined.

You still haven't made a single point that can't be EASILY refuted in fact you haven't even made a point but rather restated how it's different while failing to realize that's all you're doing.

>>150636746
>Desirable map mods determine which ones players roll for more. Desirable affix tiers determine which ones players craft for more.
so your goal with this system is to simply kill trading and force players to roll instead?

Just because you are terrified of human contact in acquiring items doesn't mean you should force your autism onto other people.

>It doesn't matter at all as the algorithm doesn't need to perfectly reflect your opinion of item value.
yes it does because if it is off slightly from the perceived value of players then either supply or demand instantly dwindles to nothing.

>>150638015
>so your goal with this system is to simply kill trading and force players to roll instead?
Because undesirable map mods killed mapping? Your post makes absolutely zero sense.

>yes it does because if it is off slightly from the perceived value of players then either supply or demand instantly dwindles to nothing.
No, it's replaced by a better item. The item you currently hold in high regard will instead be replaced by an item that better fits the predetermined value : player's perceived value of worth ratio. Yes, some items in the current system won't be worth anything anymore, some worth more. That's different, not better or worse. The better part comes in the form of killing currency/item RMT and severely nerfing botting. Along with several other choice benefits.

>>150637864
>The price is predetermined.
you said your system affects pricing based on how often those mods are traded
now it's predetermined with no way to affect it

i guess it's pretty easy to think your system is perfect when it waffles between how it works as soon as anyone asks a question, but actually implementing a non-deterministic black box that outputs the correct answer no matter what the inputs are is actually much harder to do than you think.

>>150637215
>It ultimately doesn't matter because the system doesn't seek to perfectly reflect the value of a mod.
So it's flawed and useless. It imposes a determined price to all players, without having the means to accurately reflect an item's value in most cases.
For such an idealized system, you keep admitting its shortcomings.

>The current system doesn't.
Yes it does. If the meta favors defense over offense, or the opposite, then the market will accurately reflect the price of such a unique with a high defensive stat and a low offensive stat. 60% spellblock Rathpiths were extremely valuable when block was meta. It's not anymore and their price has tanked to a more reasonable value. Players no longer have to pay a luxury tax for a stat that is less useful in the current meta.

>Saying, "Nothing you posted rebuttal anything" is incorrect English, retard.
Yes, the correct English in context would have been to say "Nothing you posted refutes anything" but you said "Nothing you posted rebuts anything."
You can't even speak your own language you fucking tool.

>Because the entire pricing system no longer encompasses your opinion on what should cost more or less, it doesn't matter. Just as in the current system, wealthly players will irrationally play inferior builds with expensive items
Great, so a ton of currently useful but average rare items would become straight up useless under your system just because they happen to have a conflicting affix that drives their value up when it should drive it down. A system that cannot accurately estimate an item's value on an individual basis is straight up garbage. Just another example of how simple imput breaks your perfect system and bring it to its knees.

>>150638292
If you care to attack your strawman for a little while longer, lemme know. I got better things to do.

>>150637864
>I dont need to be specific about how it works!

MOST of the comments against your system and arguments about are pretty much because you refuse to be specific about how it actually determines atomic pricing.


>The price can't be manipulated.

I own X very metagame-valuable item which commands average atomic deterministic pricing

So i bundle it with crap items with atomistically-expensive mods i rolled with alts.

There you have, pricing manipulation in no way different from how it currently happens.

>I can refute all!

Circular arguments aren't refutation. You are simply trying to evade arguments with gud ol deflection and claims about unstated pricing mechanics

>>150638406
>So it's flawed and useless. It imposes a determined price to all players, without having the means to accurately reflect an item's value in most cases.
>For such an idealized system, you keep admitting its shortcomings.
You're implying that prices have to perfectly equal their worth knowing full well that's impossible and I will add and defend unnecessary as proven by the current system. Players will still buy your Mirror item even though your Mirror item clears no faster than my Cheap item. The goal was never stated to create an infallibly perfect reflection of every item value so I have no idea why you would think it be a good point to make as you certainly haven't proven it by your posts.

>If the meta favors defense over offense, or the opposite, then the market will accurately reflect the price of such a unique with a high defensive stat and a low offensive stat
Define "accurately". The foundation of your argument falls apart with the fact that objectively inferior items often cost more/less than objectively superior items. If offense and defense is accurately portrayed then this is a contradiction. An extremely powerful defensive item can cost far more/less than an extremely powerful offensive item as this isn't in any way a universal rule.

>>150638406
>Yes, the correct English in context would have been to say "Nothing you posted refutes anything" but you said "Nothing you posted rebuts anything."
Use rebuts correctly in a sentence.

>Great, so a ton of currently useful but average rare items would become straight up useless under your system just because they happen to have a conflicting affix that drives their value up when it should drive it down. A system that cannot accurately estimate an item's value on an individual basis is straight up garbage. Just another example of how simple imput breaks your perfect system and bring it to its knees.
And replaced by a different item. Replacing =/= bring to its knees, fucking retard.

How much more verbal abuse and logical smackdowns can catshitter take in before he breaks and disappear for another week? Or does his autism make him impervious to all forms of criticism?

>>150638937

At this point he must know and understand the glaring faults and shortcomings of fixed trade, but is too invested in trying to be right that he will keep making vague replies, avoiding any mention of his pricing mechanics, and indulging in circular arguments that dont "prove him wrong" because he refuses to make actual statements of anything but the abstract objectives of his system.

Basically he is baiting people.

>>150638647
>MOST of the comments against your system and arguments about are pretty much because you refuse to be specific about how it actually determines atomic pricing.
I've stated the extent of what needs to be said to defend my position. Asking for more won't receive an answer. If I need to be more specific, you do too.

>So i bundle it with crap items with atomistically-expensive mods i rolled with alts.
Yes you'll be forced to perform a circus act every single time you try and subvert the system. That's kinda the point.

>Circular arguments aren't refutation
You have yet to provide a valid argument so no circles can be made.

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>>150638281
>That's different, not better or worse.
it's actually objectively worse because it's a massive restriction on items that are worth trading due to your "no one is allowed to communicate or haggle i hate human interaction REEEEE" system when there are already massive restrictions on items that are worth trading simply due to their quality (aka most item drops are crap)

these types of effects are actually even worse than they appear because reducing trade makes a lot of players simply stop trading because it's so much of a hassle fighting the system in addition to everything else that they simply give up.

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>>150639312


Man its scary how i can predict what his reply will be like here >>150639304

>I've stated the extent of what needs to be said to defend my position

So your system:

still allows scams

still allows price manipulation

still allows rmt and botting. just with a different approach to it

All with the downside of trading being even more annoying, people being even more clueless what their shit is really WORTH, and of course, no sharing items between friends.

Yeah real convenient.

>>150639695
>it's actually objectively worse because it's a massive restriction on items that are worth trading due to your "no one is allowed to communicate or haggle i hate human interaction REEEEE" system when there are already massive restrictions on items that are worth trading simply due to their quality (aka most item drops are crap)
No where did I state communication would be gone. 99% of haggling in PoE is some retard lowballing your fixed price and the majority of trading in PoE is pricing according to the indexer.

It doesn't restrict the ability to trade items, either. If anything it enhances it as some players who would otherwise not know of item value may try and sell something because it has a value on it and accidentally wind up selling something someone wants.

>these types of effects are actually even worse than they appear because reducing trade makes a lot of players simply stop trading because it's so much of a hassle fighting the system in addition to everything else that they simply give up.
There's nothing to fight. You pay the price of the item. That's it.

>>150639975
>still allows rmt and botting. just with a different approach to it
The only way to effectively RMT in PoE is to buy stacks of currency. Tell me, retard, how will the average player buy stacks of currency now? Players do this because it's convenient. It will be the opposite of it.

Botting? Yes you can still do it but the advantage gained from doing it now will be a joke. Whereas before botters have entire rings setup with hundreds of accounts all capable of rapidly shifting their entire bot rings worth of currency to a single "messenger" account in a matter of seconds. Now they would have to painstakingly save thousands of junk items in a feeble attempt to subvert the predetermined price of items.

>>150638839
>Players will still buy your Mirror item even though your Mirror item clears no faster than my Cheap item.
The fact that mirror-tier rares even exist and are a source of revenue for the top 0.1% is a direct testament of what (standard) players want: prestige "perfect" items that are the result of thousands of orbs poured into making it "perfect." Your system has no answer for that desire: it drives mediocre items prices up and bring mirror-tier items prices down, ignoring the concept of their price being a function of their prestige: they're the absolute best existing in realm. Your system cannot evaluate prestige. Players will.

>The goal was never stated to create an infallibly perfect reflection of every item value
In the current system, an item's value is decided by the meta, which itself is decided by tens of thousands of players. If your system cannot do better, it's worse, regardless of its intended contrived idealistic goal. If it's worse, it's shit.

>Define "accurately". [...]
I'm not comparing a unique to all other uniques. I'm comparing one unique to other rolls of that unique. Your system cannot keep up with the meta, or has to price that unique according to a predetermined meta it decides to push. This is not interesting for players choosing to go against that meta. The so called "force meta" is what drives players away, not the ability for some to manipulate the market.

>Use rebuts correctly in a sentence.
You used it wrong. If I can see it, any native English speaker can (but not you, because you're dumb).

>And replaced by a different item. Replacing =/= bring to its knees, fucking retard.
A lot of PoE's itemization flavor and complexity is that even mediocre rares or rares with conflicting affixes can be valuable to someone, and they should be worth something. Your system would only be able to quickly shift around generic mediocre rares with no answer for a simple example of a decent rare with a conflicting affix.

the most amazing part about this is that people as retarded as this guy have actually tried doing fixed price systems in big budget MMOs
and every time it completely destroys the market, trading more or less instantly dies.

>>150640470
>If anything it enhances it as some players who would otherwise not know of item value may try and sell something because it has a value on it and accidentally wind up selling something someone wants.
they'll notice the price and hit up the trade channel about 5 times (actually much less than that, i'd be surprised if they gave it a shot more than twice)
players in trade will tell them "no, that item's actually crap and no one would ever pay that much for it"
after that they'll give up on trading completely because it will still be the case that most of the items worth a lot of currency aren't desirable, most of the desirable items aren't worth a lot of currency, and that sweet spot where an item is valuable but reasonably priced is so narrow and difficult to tell that it's just not worth the effort.

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>>150640470

>you can bot but it will be slower and less profitable
>you can rmt items still but fixes orb trading!****

*****assuming the mechanics of orb pricing under your system cant be circumvented by using high atomic deterministic pricing with low metagame-value. which we dont know because you refuse to go on detail about them

Those are noble goals but ultimately your way of pursing them shits up PoE too badly while not fixing the problems with trade.

>>150640752
>Your system has no answer for that desire: it drives mediocre items prices up and bring mirror-tier items prices down
No, it doesn't. You're just saying it does, unsupported by anything, again.

> ignoring the concept of their price being a function of their prestige
Yes and now the prestige comes from rolling an item with six tier 1 affixes on it. Oh wait, JUST LIKE IT ALREADY IS.

>Your system cannot evaluate prestige. Players will.
It does, differently. The players decide which predetermined mods of high value to roll and roll for those in an attempt to roll a top value, highly sought after rare. This reduces down to yet another, "different but failed to give example of worse" argument. It's different, yes, not worse.

>In the current system, an item's value is decided by the meta, which itself is decided by tens of thousands of players
The price is actually set by very few and followed by the rest. That's why everyone uses poe.trade to price things.

>If your system cannot do better, it's worse
I've already stated numerous times how it's BETTER, not just different as is the case in the current system. RMT currency? Good luck with that. Botting? Nerfed into the ground. Ease of transactions? Much higher.

>You used it wrong. If I can see it, any native English speaker can (but not you, because you're dumb).
Good good now use it correctly in a sentence. Still waiting.

>ven mediocre rares or rares with conflicting affixes can be valuable to someone, and they should be worth something
>Your system would only be able to quickly shift around generic mediocre rares with no answer for a simple example of a decent rare with a conflicting affix
"Conflicting" isn't a universal rule. One man's trash is another man's treasure. What's shit today could be gold tomorrow. That doesn't change in either system, only the examples of it do.

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>>150641759
>Ease of transactions? Much higher.
>>150639312
>Yes you'll be forced to perform a circus act every single time you try and subvert the system. That's kinda the point.
So transaction are easier because trying to get the most out of an item is a fucking hassle?

>>150642080
Ease of legit transactions. Trying to cheat the system will be much harder to the point of absurdity. kramer paying in pennies.gif

>>150641759
>The price is actually set by very few and followed by the rest.

Its the same in your system. Bundling enables the first few people to reach high levels to set whtever price they want, quickly creating monopolies by buying stuff at "fixed" pricing and then reselling using bundling.

>>150642324

The fact that subverting fixed pricing is possible just by putting a bit more effort into it not only shows why your system is unfun, but mechanically flawed

Fixed pricing actually encourages RMT.

Let's say you see a perfect rare drop, like absolute perfection
best in slot
the system says it's worth 3 chaos
you KNOW that it's worth more than that, but how can you get an appropriate amount value for your godly luck?

getting value in in-game currency:
you package it with a bunch of bad trades. stupid rares with conflicting core mods that the game says is worth more than a mirror even though no one in their right mind would consider using it, you tell someone "make me three 'bad' trades for you and i'll give you this good trade on this good item"
this requires that you perform a lot of research and hold onto these "padding" items in your inventory, haggling probably takes hours and hours more for setting up your stock. Extremely complicated, extremely time-intensive, and extremely difficult to actually get a deal that feels decent to both sides.

getting value in real money:
"3 chaos for best in slot, just wire 100 bucks to my paypal"
"50"
"75 final offer"
"fine"
time: 30 seconds
quick, easy exchange that's satisfactory to both parties.

I'd be surprised if any high-end trading took place in this system without an under-the-table RMT process.

>>150642631
>Its the same in your system. Bundling enables the first few people to reach high levels to set whtever price they want, quickly creating monopolies by buying stuff at "fixed" pricing and then reselling using bundling
How exactly will you "bundle"? Why would anyone play by your master autismo trade rules when there's other people not trying to sell me literally bundled shit?

>The fact that subverting fixed pricing is possible just by putting a bit more effort into it not only shows why your system is unfun, but mechanically flawed
lol at a bit more. You'll be forced to meticulously keep literal shit filled inventory with the express purpose of taking the shit and giving it to an illegal third party RMT site so you can pay the chinese gold farmer your real money to buy stacks of currency. And if you're a frequent RMT'er that means you will have to frequently be saving shit rather than vendoring it for more currency.

>2016-August-04
>still replying to fixed trade autist

>>150643083
That's an extreme exception and the vast majority of RMT comes in the form of currency stacks for a variety of reasons. I think players generally feel safer with currency stacks because it gets consumed -- eating the evidence. It allows far more flexibility. Players can create what they want rather than hoping some perfect item pops up for sale.

Generally, items will follow closer to the rule that higher tiers cost more so a situation where a low tier item is worth a mirror or several exalts is an extreme exception -- not something you can create an RMT empire around. So Jimmy wants to make a buck off his oddity? Meh, so be it.

>>150643083
i brought up this point yesterday and his reply was "y-you can rmt all you want already so my system isnt worse off for it!!"

>>150643248

3 hours into league x BiS item drops for players on merc. make thread/spam chat advertising it:

WTS BiS Mary Sue Armor . 2 ex

At this point the seller would include on the trade window items padding the price up to amount 2ex.

Eventually top players realize that bundling works and revert to usual trading mechanics of marginal undercutting, while only poor/stupid people sell at fixed price.

>>150643687
>At this point the seller would include on the trade window items padding the price up to amount 2ex.
1) You'll always be limited by the size of the trade window
2) They'll at some point put an official item indexer in game where it won't be possible to bundle items. Players are more likely to use the indexer than you trying to scam trade chat and thus bundling will never gain traction

>>150643613
>That's an extreme exception
Not really. Even if the item isn't BiS but still simply really good, your system would probably not give it an appropriate value and fixing that in the trade is possible with bundling but extremely difficult and much easier to fix with RMT.

What your system most hurts is typical trade between players, the effect on RMT would be minimal so overall it would probably end up being more prevalent on average.

>>150643906
>no bundling allowed
then no actual trading occurs, that's the only way to get value with in-game currency so now the only option is using RMT to make up the value difference.

>>150643906

1. multiple trades can be conducted (ripe for scamming) or rings/jewels can be used

2.
>magic will fix it and people will act nobly always

ok

>>150643917
>your system would probably not give it an appropriate value and fixing that in the trade is possible with bundling but extremely difficult and much easier to fix with RMT.
The majority of players will be buying from those who aren't trying to invent their own trade rules. Good luck gaining any traction with your obscure and weird RMT. Players RMT now because it's extremely convenient. They can buy stacks of currency then do with it as they please just by giving them money. Your idea revolves around both parties being aware of a highly esoteric and convoluted process, possible but limited to a few over zealous. Thus it will never compare to RMT currently where a player can freely by stacks on stacks on stacks with no real knowledge of anything.

>What your system most hurts is typical trade between players
It does no such thing. Typical players don't care about your opinion of item value because it's no longer relevant. Only the predetermined price is.

>>150641759
>Yes and now the prestige comes from rolling an item with six tier 1 affixes on it. Oh wait, JUST LIKE IT ALREADY IS.
What would be the incentive to create such perfect items if your system estimated its price according to a weighted function of how many t1 affixes it has? The incentive to craft such an item is the idea that a lot of other players will strive to buy a mirror service and thus you recoup your crafting investment -- you're crafting at a loss (by definition) in order to later profit.

>It does, differently. [...]
There would no longer would be a mirror service, genius. You would have to directly buy a mirror tier item, which would be incredibly overpriced or underpriced compared to now, both cases killing any incentive for top crafters to keep trying to produce, let alone sell them. (Why sell the absolute best item on the realm or one of its copies?)
Your system cannot evaluate prestige and it cannot allow any crafting/mirror service. Similarly, it doesn't address the prestige of legacy uniques.

>Good good now use it correctly in a sentence. Still waiting.
>When you rebut someone’s argument you argue against it. To refute someone’s argument is to prove it incorrect. Unless you are certain you have achieved success, use “rebut.”
Maybe I didn't refute anything, but I was certainly arguing with you. You used rebut wrongly.

>"Conflicting" isn't a universal rule. [...]
A conflicting mod is conflicting today and tomorrow and forever, as long as rares can only roll up to a finite number of 6 affixes. If one doesn't synergize with the others, it should obviously drive the value of the item down, regardless of its tier. Your lack of game knowledge is showing.

Your system would need to predetermine what is shit or what is not, and take into account every single "conflicting" affix combination. Still haven't addressed the example of a chaos resistance mod on what is typically considered a CI item, making it untradable under your system.

>>150644082
>that's the only way to get value with in-game currency
*that's the only way to get value in a cherry picked example that ultimately requires far more autism than just playing by the rules or anything else currently in game

>>150644148
> multiple trades can be conducted (ripe for scamming) or rings/jewels can be used
Only if the seller is willing to get scammed. If you trade me your item using bundling but it's not enough so you need multiple transactions, I'm just going to logoff and not give you the rest, every single time since the rules dictate I pay the predetermined price not your invented price.

>>150644786
>because it's no longer relevant.
>the value of an item is not relevant in trading
you are actually retarded

>>150644786
>The majority of players will be buying from those who aren't trying to invent their own trade rules.

You are assuming no one will make a guide on how to trade properly under a system such as yours. And since right now on every league, top players dominate the econ by manipulating prices early on and flipping, why would they not attempt to do the same?

>>150644982
>every single time since the rules dictate I pay the predetermined price not your invented price.

Right now there is a predetermined price. You can try vendoring a Coil to find how many alt shards you get out of it. Yet everybody pays an invented supply/demand driven price for them, NOT a stack of alt shards.

>>150644853
>What would be the incentive to create such perfect items if your system estimated its price according to a weighted function of how many t1 affixes it has?
You're creating the most valuable, hardest to obtain and often most sought after item. How much it's worth is relative to the economy. And just like before, it will be relatively the most worth.

>you're crafting at a loss (by definition) in order to later profit.
Are you new? Majority of crafting is crafting at a fucking obscene loss. How big the loss is is entirely up to the value of the weighted mods, the specifics are irrelevant here as you can just always say it will be more/less to fit whatever example you give.

>There would no longer would be a mirror service, genius. You would have to directly buy a mirror tier item, which would be incredibly overpriced or underpriced compared to now, both cases killing any incentive for top crafters to keep trying to produce, let alone sell them. (Why sell the absolute best item on the realm or one of its copies?)
Bummer. All five guys doing this will have to find a new hobby so the rest of us can actually play the game. *all five of them are rampant RMTers.

> If one doesn't synergize with the others, it should obviously drive the value of the item down, regardless of its tier.
Mod synergy is predicated entirely upon what builds players can come up with. It may be tomorrow that a once conflicting mod is now valuable. Just like always. Shit mods constantly change based on meta and players choose which items they want to waste money on. Once extremely expensive items become worthless in current/my system.

>Still haven't addressed the example of a chaos resistance mod on what is typically considered a CI item
There's nothing to address. Some mods will be shit some better. Deal with it.

>>150644982
>this system is immune to scams because players will never get scammed
wow you totally solved all the problems the current system has simply by having players that don't make mistakes.
but since you have that going for you, why did you bother trying to set the price of every randomly generated item in the game?

Random build. Gambling mans poe.

1-6 class from lest to right.
7-9 reroll
0 I choose.

>>150645667
alright, reroll.

>>150645340
it took you this long to figure that out?

>>150645340
No but your bundling idea actually is retarded.

>>150645434
>You are assuming no one will make a guide on how to trade properly under a system such as yours. And since right now on every league, top players dominate the econ by manipulating prices early on and flipping, why would they not attempt to do the same?
Because nobody is going to play by your imaginary rules which are a hundred times more autistic than the current trade system, which people already are unwilling to play by.

>>150645434
>Yet everybody pays an invented supply/demand driven price for them, NOT a stack of alt shards.
The vendor system doesn't attempt to give a price equal to a value in trade and is thus no where near a point of comparison.

>>150645461
>And just like before, it will be relatively the most worth.
But that's not true. The BiS item for a build means that it supports their build with certain extremely powerful yet niche affixes that would not have a high average value in addition to some generic affixes of high power. The most expensive item would actually be one with a bunch of generically powerful affixes that doesn't actually work very well for any build at all.

>>150645871
You are actually retarded.
Now what?

>>150646043
It doesn't have to be universally true, only generally true. Just like it is now. Every item now isn't perfectly aligned to their price : power ratio and no where near it. It only needs to be consistent and such a system is as consistent as possible as the prices are predetermined.

>>150646089
I don't care about your opinion of my intelligence because it's no longer relevant. Only the predetermined IQ is.

>>150645942
>your bundling idea actually is retarded.
that's a classic trading technique used basically since neolithic times.

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>>150645810
Choosing first skill
1&2 molton
3,4 split arrow
5,6, light ten
7,8 spec throw
9, 0 I get one from nessa.

>>150645942

>>150645942
>Because nobody is going to play by your imaginary rules
*My*? Its merely a logical extension of your imaginary, arbitrary rules. The fact that you believe people will not attempt to profit as much as possible is utterly naive.

>>150645942
>The vendor system doesn't attempt to give a price equal to a value in trade

Your system doesnt either. Atomic deterministic pricing is completely independent of metagame-value usefulness as per your own past statements.

There is already a pre-determined pricing system in place but people largely ignore it.

>>150646259
>Every item now isn't perfectly aligned to their price : power ratio and no where near it.
it's aligned perfectly with supply/demand which is pretty closely tied to power, but also to popularity and rarity.

The thing is your, system doesn't replace supply and demand because items still drop at the same rate and players still want to do their builds whether it's because they're popular, effective, or themed a certain way. You're simply adding a new factor into the mix that's supposed to represent power but will almost certainly fail to achieve that.

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>>150646349
last number ring around rosey count it out.

starting at hp regen.

>>150646275
kek

>>150646753
you should make every passive placement choice a post roll

>>150646408
>Its merely a logical extension of your imaginary, arbitrary rules
For that to be the case I'd have to be suggesting rules that were intended to be imaginary. They're intended to be the official in game trading mechanisms, supplemented by the indexer for players to find items with, all in game.

A player would have to go to greater lengths than they currently do to subvert them, all with their being a nice and convenient system already in place to use instead.

Unlike now, the system would be designed to give all players the ability to see each other's goods in game and buy them without extreme autism or automating everything/removing all interaction.

>There is already a pre-determined pricing system in place but people largely ignore it.
For one, nobody ignores it. Everyone vendors their shit. For the other, the price is balanced to supplement player trade, not replace it. Clearly two entirely different design goals. Now fuck off, retard.

>>150646926
Thats the rule.
Every passive point is a roll, every quest reward skill is a roll.
I can use skill gem drops, and item drops because those are already random.
Must complete all quests.

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Anyone else feel bad catposter is getting btfo so badly?

>>150645461
How would you ensure "crafting at an obscene loss" is still a rational avenue to pursue if you can no longer later profit from it? And if one does find or craft a 5x t1s or 6x t1s item, how would you ensure they want to trade it for what appears to be a reasonable value? They would just keep it to themselves. Or RMT.

>Bummer. All five guys doing this will have to find a new hobby so the rest of us can actually play the game. *all five of them are rampant RMTers.
All five guys exist and make a business out of it because they have thousands of other Standard players willing to feed them currency and encourage them to keep producing mirror tier items. Without such a funneling of currency, there are no mirror tier items, there are no prestige items, there's nothing. Without end-game carrot-at-the-end-of-the-stick items to pursue, Standard dies.

You're discounting a large portion of the playerbase (close to 20% according to GGG) along with a niche, but important part of high end crafting if you choose to ignore the concerns of Standard. Still not adressing legacy uniques.

>Mod synergy is predicated entirely upon what builds players can come up with.
What's next? Melee summoners isn't a shit build because no one has come up with one yet? No it's a shit build, because the game limits your number of sockets, passive points, and you cannot be a hybrid efficiently in this game. Specialization is key, in character building, and in itemization.

>Shit mods constantly change based on meta and players choose which items they want to waste money on.
Which is why there's nothing wrong with market manipulation, flipping or letting players decide what shit items to waste their currency on. That's the freedom of the a free, unregulated market. GGG has no way to decide that better than the players themselves, especially when none of them actually plays the game enough to understand the meta.

>>150647158
It will be convenient because the player economy will simply die just like every mmo run by a retard who thought price fixing was good idea

>>150647186
No, I feel bad that he's actually shit at the game. Whether he pretends to be a retard here is irrelevant. Someone who has been playing for years like him should be remotely decent by now. Instead he'd rather whine about how the system doesn't accommodate him instead of trying to get better as a player.

>>150647158
>A player would have to go to greater lengths than they currently do to subvert them, all with their being a nice and convenient system already in place to use instead.

people go to great lengths already to amass wealth in-game, from rmt, botting to autismal playing habits and trading methods.
You are suggesting they wouldnt, in your system? Why not?

>>150647158
>For the other, the price is balanced to supplement player trade, not replace it.

In your system fixed trade also becomes supplemental to real value-based trading.

You keep making pretty generalized abstractions of what further changes would enable your idea to work, again avoiding specifics.

The most glaring flaw so far is that you need new rules, mechanics and ad-hoc ingame elements just to make your system work at all, while still being vulnerable to the same trade cancer we have right now.

>>150646713
>it's aligned perfectly with supply/demand which is pretty closely tied to power, but also to popularity and rarity.
Prices remain largely the same for items outside of streamer popularizing FotM builds and then flippers buying all the supply up. I'd hardly call that a good thing.

>You're simply adding a new factor into the mix that's supposed to represent power but will almost certainly fail to achieve that
You're free to state why it will fail but you won't so meh. Whatever

>>150647210
>How would you ensure "crafting at an obscene loss" is still a rational avenue to pursue if you can no longer later profit from it?
>And if one does find or craft a 5x t1s or 6x t1s item, how would you ensure they want to trade it for what appears to be a reasonable value? They would just keep it to themselves. Or RMT
I don't think it's reasonable nor rational to balance an entire trade system around that one guy who RMT's his whole paycheck on crafting materials to sell mirror gear to the detriment of everyone else.

>You're discounting a large portion of the playerbase (close to 20% according to GGG) along with a niche, but important part of high end crafting if you choose to ignore the concerns of Standard.
The overwhelming vast majority of players on standard aren't crafting mirror gear.

>Which is why there's nothing wrong with market manipulation, flipping or letting players decide what shit items to waste their currency on. That's the freedom of the a free, unregulated market. GGG has no way to decide that better than the players themselves, especially when none of them actually plays the game enough to understand the meta.
If it allows activity that undermines the entire system, which it does, yes there is something wrong with it. All of these activities are meaningless when anybody with a credit card can go buy stacks and stacks.

>>150647653
>It will be convenient because the player economy will simply die just like every mmo run by a retard who thought price fixing was good idea
runescape's economy didn't die but they removed price fixing because they wanted to become the source of the RMT themselves through player bonds rather than keep a highly functioning legit system in place.

>>150648124
>people go to great lengths already to amass wealth in-game, from rmt, botting to autismal playing habits and trading methods.
You are suggesting they wouldnt, in your system? Why not?
that's because the guy on the other end can easily support their autism. they can no longer easily support their autism when doing so involves a long and convoluted process known only to the esoteric few and no reason to suggest the general populace would adopt it with a better alternative in place.

>>150648124
>In your system fixed trade also becomes supplemental to real value-based trading.
no it doesn't because there's no effort by the devs whatsoever to support your autysmal imaginary system whereas in mine it's literally the only thing players know. You know how they say there's a large portion of the playerbase that will never even use poe.trade because it's not part of the game? Same thing applies here only moreso because this time they will have poe.trade in game and have the value of everything right in front of them.

>>150648562
>hey can no longer easily support their autism when doing so involves a long and convoluted process known only to the esoteric few

to most players, the current way to get rich involves already a convoluted process know only a few people

you still fail to provide reasonable avenues for this to not happen under your system because wealth far too useful to not try to obtain in this game

or is your system going to fix the advantages of being rich too?

>>150648562
>no it doesn't because there's no effort by the devs whatsoever to support your autysmal imaginary system whereas in mine it's literally the only thing players know. You know how they say there's a large portion of the playerbase that will never even use poe.trade because it's not part of the game? Same thing applies here only moreso because this time they will have poe.trade in game and have the value of everything right in front of them.

already proven wrong with bundling and rmt-trading

it may not become "mainstream" for people engaging in small time trading, but for top players, it will become the norm unless your ad-hoc systems can effectively prohibit multi-item trading and the game's rules change to ban them

All of which seems like it leads to effectively discouraging trade.

>>150650029
>to most players, the current way to get rich involves already a convoluted process know only a few people
It's the only way combined with RMT. RMT being the key part as that too takes a massively destructive hit through predetermined pricing.

>you still fail to provide reasonable avenues for this to not happen under your system because wealth far too useful to not try to obtain in this game
I gave an extremely reasonable avenue that being players will find having the value of the item on the item itself an indexer to find other players with the item they need to be not just sufficient but easier and more intuitive than doing anything else. It's called the path of least resistance and that's exactly what my system offers, without gutting out trade interaction or automating everything.

>already proven wrong with bundling and rmt-trading
How will other players know bundling exists and why would they buy your bundled shit when they can instead buy it from one of the plethora of players buying non bundled shit all conveniently in game? How will the average retard RMT when they can no longer take daddy's credit card and charge a website and have chinese gold farmer drop the item for them? How will RMT sites stay in business when all those sheep stop buying from them?

>but for top players, it will become the norm unless your ad-hoc systems can effectively prohibit multi-item trading and the game's rules change to ban them
Top players activity is still predicated on the ability of a reasonable sized operation to...operate. RMT sites will struggle to stay in business. Look at how well D3 RMT is doing for example...it's not.

>>150650578
>when they can instead buy it from one of the plethora of players buying non bundled shit all conveniently in game?
because the supply for reasonably priced items evaporates instantly and the only thing left are shit that's bloated with bad but expensive affixes so they'll never move.

the item at the "real" price of 1 chaos is out of stock because the "real" price is too fucking cheap
you can spend 40 chaos on an item that's worse than that because it has expensive shit affixes tacked on that you don't want
or you can spend 10 chaos on a bundle of the item you want at 1 chaos with some shitty garbage that adds up to the rest of the price.

The bundle gives you better value so you will buy it.

>>150648205
>The overwhelming vast majority of players on standard aren't crafting mirror gear.
But all of them participate in an economy that funnels currency into the top players.
This is understood and even encouraged by everyone because the creation of mirror items and prestige items is basically the selling point of Standard, a league in which players can strive to achieve the absolute "perfect" character.

This is true to a lesser extent for high end crafting in challenge 3-month leagues. Without flipping, trading at an advantage using your knowledge and a natural funneling of wealth to the top, no top player would have the currency needed to blow it on a self-crafting project. And without crafting incentive, there is no trading incentive at higher levels and every single orb in this game fails in its design, since crafting a new item is, by definition, a currency loss.

Ignoring top end crafting is ignoring the core psychological factor of any aRPG which is always to strive to have the "perfect" character with the "perfect" gear. Self-reliance is nice, but players are already sufficiently self-reliant if they wish to be. PoE is not a game that pushes self-reliance at the top and if trading is to be encouraged, there needs to be a way for knowledgeable players to make a profit, and not in a boring item input into predetermined currency output by a system unable to keep up with an evolving meta.

In short, end game crafting is vital. You cannot have crafting if you kill any funneling of currency to the top, and more importantly if you destroy ease of trading. For the game to exist and last, rich players need to get richer so they can produce items that otherwise wouldn't exist. For this to be possible, they need to take advantage of lower players, knowingly or not. Cutting off the far right of a bell curve doesn't help the average player.

>>150652428
>because the supply for reasonably priced items evaporates instantly and the only thing left are shit that's bloated with bad but expensive affixes so they'll never move.
So just like it is now. That's not a point against. There's always a shitload of items priced shitty than nobody buys and only buy the good priced ones. Difference being now there's a standardized price and a more convenient way to obtain in my system.

>or you can spend 10 chaos on a bundle of the item you want at 1 chaos with some shitty garbage that adds up to the rest of the price.
Supply will be less of an issue because the average player will have the value of the item on the item and an indexer in game to place everything. With every player knowing how trade works far more items will be available on the market. You ever play D3 RMAH? The only time supply was ever an issue was literally when the game first came out and only on HC and only if you were the best player in the game. Otherwise there was no shortage on any items. That's what would happen to PoE and so there would be nobody seeking your bundled "deals".

>>150653097
>You ever play D3 RMAH? The only time supply was ever an issue was literally when the game first came out
because people could set prices and they level at a price point where the number of players going "yeah i could use that" and making a purchase equaled the number of people who said "oh i bet someone would like this item, i should sell it" it only worked out that way because there was no such thing as price fixing.

>>150653097
>You ever play D3 RMAH? The only time supply was ever an issue was literally when the game first came out and only on HC and only if you were the best player in the game. Otherwise there was no shortage on any items.
D3 also has no itemization at all, only stat sticks with a big DPS number and no differentiation. Everyone can use any weapon as long as the class allows it, just pick the one with the biggest DPS number. Everything is homogenized and it should be obvious that in such a system it is easy to implement an homogenized pricing system with an homogenized currency: gold.

Except there's actually itemization in PoE. And currency is not homogenized.
You're comparing a game that facilitated trading for braindead retards like you to a game that actually gave 2 shits about itemization and letting players decide what would be worth something or not. You fucking drooling retard.

>>150653419
> it only worked out that way because there was no such thing as price fixing
lol
it worked out that way because players needed items to progress and to get items they needed currency and nobody used trade window (like your dumb trade bundle idea) everyone used the path of least resistance the auction house just like my idea, except no auction house but indexer + predetermined prices instead.

>>150654065
>D3 also has no itemization at all, only stat sticks with a big DPS number and no differentiation.
You think PoE does? lel. Every desirable rare is the same set of affixes. On weapons it's %dmg +dmg %cast/attack speed crit chance crit multi and on armors its %armor +armor life res

Muh itemisashunnnn

It isn't the items that gives PoE customization it's the varied avenues of customization from the passive tree to the gems.

> And currency is not homogenized.
No but it easily could be. If prices were predetermined then currency would all have a relative value, which it already does it just fluctuates with hierarchy changes rarely ever occurring except when the devs themselves make it happen.

>You're comparing a game that facilitated trading for braindead retards like you to a game that actually gave 2 shits about itemization and letting players decide what would be worth something or not. You fucking drooling retard.
Whenever you hang yourself, you won't be missed by anybody.

>>150654812
shut up dude

>>150654812
You lost the argument the moment you compared D3's inexistent itemization (99% of the playerbase uses class specific sets, great game design) to PoE. You can now go kill yourself because no one needs to ever think about considering your opinion seriously from this point on. Go buy more challenges, dumb catshitter.

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>>150654812
>lol
>lel
>Muh

Top notch post.

>>150655189
>You lost the argument the moment you compared D3's inexistent itemization
You have no clue why D3's itemization sucked and it wasn't because PoE had more varied affixes they were literally the same in that regard what made it suck was that at first only rares were good I mean they were way overpowered. Then they made it so that only sets/legs were good. This means every good build was limited to one or two sets and one or two legs.

>>150655216
Your arguments have become comical at this point I can't help myself. You're just throwing shit at a wall and hoping it sticks. Anime is dogshit tier btw and your god moot is dead. Kill yourself retard.

>>150655216
Catshitter can only repress his inner retard for so long. You know he's gone full retard when he has to bring up D3 to defend his stance.

>>150654812
>>150653097
if you actually like garbage like D3 then why don't you play that? Blizzard seems to cater to the level of stimulation you desire in a game. They do things like allow players to auto-queue up for parties without needing to talk to people, creating global auction houses that just automatically buy the cheapest available instead of worrying about scary things like haggling, and in pvp games they even automatically disable /allchat so no one on the enemy team can say stuff to you to make you feel bad. It's almost like it's a single player game even though you need to be online to play.

>>150656096
>>150656185
do you work for blizzard because no where did i suggest that i like that trash game but you would be a fool to ignore the examples of failures it brought given how many people played it.

>>150656867
>b-b-but I don't like blizzard even though I argue against player choice and interaction like they do
It's ok man, people like different things.
We like to play an online game.
You like to play "online" games that do everything they can to cut out interaction with other players from every possible angle.

>all these retards desperately false flagging
Just another day in the life of the king of poeg

>>150657679
kek i starting this convo with you yesterday (then you dissapeared) and ive been tabbed to a korean hat collecting game for like 5 hours

you have to accept that maybe your idea is shit or at least try to flesh it out better

>>150658365
>my idea is shit
>but some obscure item bundle idea instead would totally fly!
lmao right now at your life kid

>>150658646
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_bundling

far from obscure

it is scummy, but widely used

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Is Armour Mastery worth the 3 points (and possibly Diamond Skin) or should I just get 15% life?

>>150658936
yes it's still obscure because in poe you can't package your product up in a box and sell it as a bundle using my system.

it would be like a drug dealer trying to get you to pay more for cocaine by throwing in a vile of heroin while all you asked for was some coffee at the coffee shop from the barista.

>>150658646

its merely an avenue to subvert fixed pricing

if others ways to do the same emerge, they would be used too

you basically need assume people will do anything to command higher profit margins; this is the essence of why trading is so shit right now.


>>150659112
if its a matter of strict either-or choice, id go with life unless you are really hurting for resists

>>150659112
post your build so we can see what you are specing into armour or res

>>150659292

a drug dealer not only cuts his product with sodium carbonate or baking powder, but is already overpricing the diluted amount of product

this aint too different from bundling

>>150659325
>you basically need assume people will do anything to command higher profit margins; this is the essence of why trading is so shit right now
Sure they will but it isn't a question of that. Ultimately players can sell whole accounts.

The reason RMT is so successful is because of how fucking convenient it is. So convenient that f2p games have literally built an empire modeling themselves after it.

By making prices predetermined, you take away a large portion of the convenience factor, so much so that it will be made virtually obsolete. As the reason being that such practices can thrive because they can profit off having a sizable operation going. You can't have a sizable operation without having a convenient means of profiting off retards.

>>150659458
2h EQ

https://www.pathofexile.com/fullscreen-passive-skill-tree/AAAABAQBAQHcBLMFLQd1CZYLYQxfDHAS4RQgFewaOBo-HKchVSFgJ58pLimlLdIwdzWSOQ47tjwFPC09_ECgRrdHflBHU6VXVFhjWfNZ_l4TXz9hIWFSZFJlTWWnZ5toZWjybztyqXTxdqx343gNeHp5aHrve3R8uHzZffWDX4TZhO-Fp4a0h2qKs4rwjM-QVZHOktCTqJd5nz6f36IAouqlNaknqW6plKyqrj6uUK9ssoC18rkdu-29Nr6nwBrAZsCmwQTBo8QVxPbGrsqQz37Tb9i93D3iYeRR6UbqGO8O707vfPAf8i_z3fVh9kj3Mvjr

Currently

>>150659898
>By making prices predetermined, you take away a large portion of the convenience factor, so much so that it will be made virtually obsolete.

the compromise is too great

every single online game that has tried to completely squash out rmt and botting ended up being unfun

D3 is a good example

>>150660050
id definitely go with more life

>>150660432
You make it sound as if there's been a long and storied history of fixed pricing experiments. There hasn't.

None that directly translate to PoE and only one that I'm aware of ever in Runescape and it didn't fail insomuch as the devs chose to become the source of RMT instead.

D3 just scrapped trading altogether. That's retarded. I think if you want to scrap trading it has to be a choice not only one or the other.

>>150660669
I guess it looks a little low in the tree but I have four jewels with 8%/8%/7%/7% life socketed.

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When when are we moving to Road of Banishment?

>>150661110
you also have 7 end charges

7+4=28+golem=32% phys resist

with potion that bumps to about 47%, add a granite and it becomes about 55% on top of what you already have from armour. so maybe 60% at least

combined with 40fy, aa and/or enfeeble id say you have a good layer of phys resists

diamond skin has merit but you can also grab resist on jewels/gear. but if you arent vuln-capped already, and diamond skin is the only way you have to be so, then thats fine

imo, more life is better for you than more armour passives

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>>150647186
>>150647878
what are you even talking about?

>>150661714
Solid, thanks. I like more like anyways.
What are your opinions on Combat Stamina?

>>150661270
>can cast flameblast while moving
that's too overpowered

>it's another catshitter gets blown up then pretends it was someone else episode

>he thinks he won the argument by false flagging
look at him, look at her and laugh

>>150660909
>You make it sound as if there's been a long and storied history of fixed pricing experiments. There hasn't.
It fails literally every time it happens. The more effort put into price fixing, the worse the economy becomes. Not even just virtual economies (Runescape, BDO, Vindictus) but in actual trade regulation agreements, price fixing is always a massive net detriment to trade.

>>150643687
Runescape had exactly this happen to it around 2008-9 when they instituted trade limitations in order to stop rmt.

Not only is this exactly how it would work we have a study case from a game that nearly died because of implementation of this kind of system.

>>150663804
>It fails literally every time it happens
If by fail you mean greedy developers scrapping a functioning system in favor of becoming RMTlords, sure.

>>150663842
Except Runescape can't be directly compared. You have to give an ultra precise example because both games have wildly different systems in place.

>history doesn't matter because I said so
this stupid motherfucker

>>150663728
the only person getting laughed at here is you, fucking retard

>>150663320
how is catposter getting btfo? fuck off you dingleberry fairy

>how am i getting btfo? im winning the argument!!

>like a game
>want to talk about it
>general is filled with microaggression-obsessed autists and wannabe designers with a god complex who think online games shouldn't involve interacting with players.

whatever you say turd blossom

>>150665250
look at him, look at her and laugh

anyone can talk about the game if they want
this is a safe space for all poe lovers!

>predetermined pricing won't work because players will choose to elaborately horde multiple stash tabs full of junk at all times to be used expressly for the purpose of subverting a system that makes it easier on everybody each time they want to perform a transaction so instead of just trading the item for the currency value like everybody else they'll instead break into an elaborate spiel about their current opinion on the state of PoE's meta and why their item should be worth more than what everybody else sells theirs at and why they're going to combine a bunch of junk with it so they can get the fair value of what it's really worth in Jimmy's world since PoE's prices aren't the real price but my unique snowflake combined item prices are the real price

could you get any more desperate

Hey I'm new to this game, I have like 30 hours so I decided to check the general but it looks pretty dead and the discussion doesn't look fun and I notice a severe lack of memes

Is there a guild or something? Do you guys only play hardcore?

Also I feel like "catshitter" should get a trip

>>150667110
ok

>>150667110
there is a guild but it's dead / casual and the league itself is dead

most people play hardcore, but there are still some shitcrows here, as I said the guild is semi casual

>>150666906
>players will not try to maximize profit
ebin

the sad part is catshitter actually thinks he's smart

>>150667365
>players will waste all this time squeezing a few c out of their shit item because their opinion of item value is more important that everyone elses
>meanwhile I just sold 100 inventories worth of items in the amount of time they spent finding some retard to play by their rules
the simplest answer is usually the correct answer.

is this game fun yet

>>150667284
damn that's sad, the game is actually pretty fun, I'm only halfway through act 2 though

nope, we just take turns giving catshitter his daily 5 minutes of attention

>>150667639
But the simplest answer is a paypal payment under the table.

>>150667868
he would know
catshitter has never gotten rich in a temp league
always rmt'd his gear and challenges

you'rer all retarted

the simplest answer is to vendor 90% of what you you find for alt and alch shards and list the rest for 1c

there's a learning curve to trading, one catshitter has never master despite 5 years of playing the game LOL

>>150667868
adding paypal to the transaction is one more step, not simpler. and the person buying the item also has to have the currency value of the item. why would they give you real money + currency when they can give someone else just currency and no real money?

you're really bad at thinking things through, aren't you?

>>150668348
>adding paypal to the transaction is one more step, not simpler.
you can't buy the item at all because it will be out of stock constantly unless you have 0 ping with the server and are watching the "indexer" 24/7 until it shows up again.

It's much easier to simply say "if you hold the item and trade it with me directly instead of putting it on the auction house, I will send money to your paypal account"

>>150668775
>you can't buy the item at all because it will be out of stock constantly unless you have 0 ping with the server and are watching the "indexer" 24/7 until it shows up again.
you do realize that the stock of items will increase exponentially when EVERYBODY is participating in trade instead of just a few market simulator autists, don't you?

your hypothetical scenario now turns into a once in a blue moon event that nobody is going to decide to decide to entirely subvert the whole trade game in favor of.

>It's much easier to simply say "if you hold the item and trade it with me directly instead of putting it on the auction house, I will send money to your paypal account"
and how long does that take? oh look, five seconds later, the item I wanted popped up and now you look like a retard for paying somebody real money for it when you could have paid me 20c and no real money.

why would an experienced trader sell a good item at what they perceive is a massive undercut to other shitters and not just hold onto the item to themselves

and if a good item sells for nothing, why would anyone buys bad items

result: no one trades anything but <2c trash items, experienced traders don't list good items and RMT thrives more than ever

genius catshitter, truly genius

>>150669005
>you do realize that the stock of items will increase exponentially when EVERYBODY is participating in trade instead of just a few market simulator autists, don't you?
demand increases at the same rate you dumb piece of shit.
double the players means double the drops and double the demand.
>oh look, five seconds later, the item I wanted popped up
in the time it takes you to move your mouse to the buy button, the item has already been bought by someone who lives closer to the server than you.

>>150669039
>why would an experienced trader sell a good item at what they perceive is a massive undercut to other shitters and not just hold onto the item to themselves
because some currency is better than no currency and it's more than they get for vendoring it. in some cases some players will hold the item. they do the same thing now.

>and if a good item sells for nothing, why would anyone buys bad items
Why does anybody play mirror builds when a 20c build clears equally well or better?

>result: no one trades anything but <2c trash items, experienced traders don't list good items and RMT thrives more than ever
your premise doesn't support your conclusion. just saying things doesn't a compelling argument make.

GGG literally needs to

>buy poe.trade
>improve it
>moderate it
>implement cross-instance trading
>give everyone a free trade tab

and just like that trading is fixed. magic

t

>>150669039
No this is great actually. If they implemented a cap and poe.trade upheld it, it'd give me the perfect opportunity to create a new trade site with fixed pricing replaced by ads.

Catshitter has the right idea considering he needs to RMT everything.

*raises paw*

>because some currency is better than no currency
philosophy of a shitter who never got rich ever in poe
if you're willing to sell by undercutting your prices by 75%, you'll get currency sure, but you'll never be able to progress as quick as the guy selling at 100% of the black market price

>in some cases some players will hold the item. they do the same thing now.
and they will do it even more, even less trading, a sure sign of a successful trading system

>Why does anybody play mirror builds when a 20c build clears equally well or better?
you heard it here first, a 20c build clears just as fast a a 200ex build

what's the point of even making profit in this game lol
buy a 20c item, resell it for 20c

genius

>>150669125
nope. there will be a far bigger supply of items because not only will more people be participating in trade but more items will get listed for trade because they have the value already on them. there are a percentage of players so averse to haggling that they literally won't trade because they don't know the item value and are afraid of selling something for less than it's worth.

>in the time it takes you to move your mouse to the buy button, the item has already been bought by someone who lives closer to the server than you.
that's nice because you're still gonna have to setup a trade so clicking the button doesn't do anything for you and while you're contacting paypal and arranging your junk bundle items to make sure you get your maximal value out of the item based on your own little unique snowflake market value assessment, somebody else just put the same item up without all your dumbshit autism and i buy that instead.

>it's unfair smarter players get richer than me, everyone should be poor as me and do shitty equitable trades where no one wins anything in the end
catshitter's mentality in a nutshell

>Why does anybody play mirror builds when a 20c build clears equally well or better?

i don't understand how this is even a counter-argument

>>150669860
>if you're willing to sell by undercutting your prices by 75%, you'll get currency sure, but you'll never be able to progress as quick as the guy selling at 100% of the black market price
yeah sure have fun with your bundling and trying to find other people willing to participate in your unique snowflake trade system while I and everyone else rabidly trades everything easily.

>and they will do it even more, even less trading, a sure sign of a successful trading system
and some will do it even less because trading is easier.

>you heard it here first, a 20c build clears just as fast a a 200ex build
a large portion of the top ladder players have been cheap as fuck ghetto builds including ladder winners. nothing heard here first, it's common knowledge.

>>150670041
>I can't easily flip items or RMT in your system, I'm too unintelligent to think of new ways to profit in your system, hence why I'm crying like a bitch about it right now
look at him, look at her and laugh

mapping costs currency, retard
it doesn't fall from the sky once you got your 20c build rolling

there's still an incentive to make profit even if you're done with your character, even more so when you're pushing ladder and rolling a map can cost up to 10-15c

kys you rank 2000 nobody

>>150670213
>including ladder winners

if the people pushing ladder had the currency to roll these builds, they would

the builds that hit 100 first are the most cost-effective in the first 1-2 weeks of a new league. you have to make due with what you have

>>150669971
>there are a percentage of players so averse to haggling that they literally won't trade because they don't know the item value and are afraid of selling something for less than it's worth.
if those players are trading that means they are buying and selling
selling
and
buying
selling increases supply
but
buying
increases
the
demand

but trade activity would not increase, it would decrease because restrictions on trade always decrease trading.

im one of the few people who can farm uber atziri in this hardcore temp league, let me list those disfavours for 20c because the system told me that's what they worth and i'm totally too retarded to disagree

thanks for telling me what to think about an item's worth, benevolent all-knowing system

totally not gonna RMT those, nope

genius catshitter, truly genius

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Thinking of doing contagion build for 48 hour race, anyone can help me with tree?

http://poeurl.com/IUP

trying to keep it under 90 points.

Also anyone want to share what build they are doing?

>>150670482
There are cheap as fuck builds that can effectively farm uber atziri too

Builds that can get to 100 before anybody else
Builds that can farm the hardest content

You think the game should all be balanced around that one guy who RMT'd everything and has every mirrored item in the game while everyone else suffers as a result of it? lmao @ your life kid

>not playing self found
lmao

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>>150670714
>two day race
>only 90 points

lol

>>150670797
what is your fucking point

cheap as fuck builds can farm uber just fine but they won't do it as well as more expensive builds, or even more expensive variants of the same build

there are more factors at play than clear speed when you're trying to push ladder. 20c builds do not clear as fast as 20ex ones, but you don't have 20ex when you're getting into your mountain ledges so you instead opt to play something else

i'm not the one you've been arguing with but you are flat-out wrong if you think cheap builds clear as well as expensive ones

>>150671040
I don't even care about good boy points, it just looks like it will be F U N

>>150670714
>trying to keep it under 90 points.
Why? Aim for level 90, that's 89+23 points on a build that takes normal Oak.

>http://poeurl.com/IUP
>125% life
Nah
>Acro+Phase Acro
Nah
>Skipping Piercing Shots
Nah
>Mind Barrier
Nah
>Skipping Sniper
Nah
>Going all the way down to Herbalism for some reason
Nah

Garbage tree, sorry to say

>>150670631
That's not how it actually works tho because everyone doesn't want the same items nor does more players create a 1:1 need for the same items. The more players there are the more diverse item requests become and players find far more items than their are players to buy them. The more players their are finding items the more items there are available. More players participating creates far more available items.

>>150671138
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1703834

win a rank 1 demi you filthy casual

>>150670714
>http://poeurl.com/IUP
mind barrier is not very good
get the 50% pierce because it's really, really nice to have 100% chance to pierce on ED
I doubt getting the 0.6% life regen from growth and decay is worth it
sniper is worth getting, it's 30% damage per 2 nodes (so 15% per node) and some projectile speed which is ok on ED, specially if you don't use slower projectiles.
I highly doubt going wicked ward + vile bastion is any good considering you took, I'd rather go for malediction and be able to run 2 curses on blasphemy easily, I know profane bloom sometimes fuck up contagion spread but I still would go that way

>>150671081
There is a point where the amount of DPS you have hits a threshold where it doesn't matter.

You won't notice much difference between say a 50k dps budget build and a 250k dps build when you are just spamming gorges.

>>150671081
>i'm not the one you've been arguing with but you are flat-out wrong if you think cheap builds clear as well as expensive ones
tell me how you can clear faster than 20c flameblasters clearing entire screens and bosses in one cast and why anybody should give a fuck about your snowflake build

>>150671430
your dps will fall off if you're chaining with 5 other people

>>150671524
>tell me how you can clear faster than 20c flameblasters

by being a 30c flameblaster???

lol???

>>150671659
>your dps will fall off if you're chaining with 5 other people
meanwhile the guy soloing clears faster than your retardo group

>>150671430
>>150671524
If there's no incentive to make a profit, there's no incentive to trade at all. Everyone can get 20c by playing normally in maps for a couple hours tops and consolidating all their currency into 20c. Done. They're good to farm Gorges. Now, why are players still encouraged to trade then, do you think you fucking retard?

>>150671757
where does he get enough gorges to chain

how does he clear faster than a guy with a support bitch running gen haste and vhastes

>>150671786
that's actually the point i'm kinda making. if your argument against predetermined pricing is that the current system perfectly reflects power to money invested, well i got news for you.

>>150671897
yeah duo-ing is generally better that soloing but that doesn't require tons of currency either

>>150670714
>Also anyone want to share what build they are doing?
ED, same as you. It worked well for me in Prophecy and I traded minimally for a couple gear pieces, rest was self-found so it should work reasonably well in that race as well provided I don't die to something stupid.

Keep your tree compact though. There's no reason to stretch your tree thin. You're in the optimal area already for ED, lots of damage and life. You should actually prioritize life over damage if possible. Remember, there's Beyond, Torment, Invasion and Onslaught as perma mods in the race. 125% life isn't enough for a softcore build in Prophecy which is pretty much Standard 2.0 and it sure won't be enough in that hardcore race.

>>150671236
>nor does more players create a 1:1 need for the same items.
they don't create a 1:1 supply either, think with your fucking brain for once
drop rates for specific items are very low, you are lucky to see a good drop for any build in a long play session, much less seeing a good drop for each of several builds or your own. demand and supply increase and decrease at the same ratio.

>>150671165
>>150671360
what about this then?

http://poeurl.com/IUS

I really don't see whats wrong with acro, im not gonna have time to get good gear to survive on block/life/es alone?

And whats wrong with 125% life on a ~90 point tree? I don't really see where I can get some immediate good life nodes.

As far as making a lvl 90 build goes, i just want a build that's gonna be good after farming dried lake.

>>150672187
My argument is that there's incentive to make profit. It's beneficial in all areas of the game, clear speed, survivability, access to higher content, ability to try new, more fun builds that you couldn't afford before. That's why you make league first solo builds. Most players are prepared to play a garbage dual totem build for a few days or a week so they can save up currency for their REAL build. A trading system where you cannot flip, abuse the ignorance of other players and make quick profit is SHIT. Not everyone's end game goal is to be able to safely run Gorge maps in rotation with 820 redditards with a 20c tabula build. Stop projecting, faggot.

>>150672504
>they don't create a 1:1 supply either, think with your fucking brain for once
no, they create much greater. adding more players to the pool creates more demand for item x but it creates far more players capable of generating it as the demand isn't 1:1 so the supply actually exceeds the demand by adding more players, it doesn't scale linearly it scales exponentially.

in short, more players increases demand for a particular item but the net result is actually more supply than demand as more players creates more diverse demands, not just 1:1 demands for the same items.

2 week DC when

>>150672610
>I really don't see whats wrong with acro, im not gonna have time to get good gear to survive on block/life/es alone?
Blasphemy Enfeeble. It synergizes well with evasion. Wear evasion/es hybrid gear if possible. With enfeeble, moderate evasion, and a stibnite flask, along with ED's natural safe styleplay, you shouldn't ever get touched.

You need life. Acro/PA won't do anything if you don't have a high enough buffer, it's avoidance, avoidance you already get with Enfeeble+evasion and manual dodging.

> I don't really see where I can get some immediate good life nodes.
Discipline and Training, Quick Recovery, Melding

>>150672618
>A trading system where you cannot flip, abuse the ignorance of other players and make quick profit is SHIT
you can still abuse the ignorance of players. a predetermined system can create items that are really powerful but a good deal or really shitty but expensive and you can take advantage of those players to profit quickly.

>Not everyone's end game goal is to be able to safely run Gorge maps in rotation with 820 redditards with a 20c tabula build
I didn't say anything about Gorge maps but players have been clearing the hardest end game content with cheap builds since this game has existed and that will never change. My point is the correlation between power : currency isn't some universal principle and thus a very poor argument against predetermined pricing. That of which, you have failed to refute entirely.

>>150672869
Read what has just been typed.
Everyone knows in their heart that these words are fundamentally incorrect.
Droprates are not high enough such that a single player could completely satisfy the demands of two other players, if that were the case then acquiring BiS gear for any build would be absolutely trivial under any trading system.

i'm going to get rank 1 in the 48hr race without ascending

>>150672610
If I were to do ED/contagion in a 2 day race, then I would actually go pathfinder and run around with a stibnite flask for toggleable poison. Projectile damage is readily accessible to the ranger, which will double dip on your poison.

>>150673494
>the correlation between power : currency isn't some universal principle

you are out of your mind

the diminishing returns hit a lot later than you believe

>>150669208
Is there any reason why they can't just implement a system like poe.trade in-game?

>>150673682
It'd be too confusing to new players
The technology isnt there yet

>>150672618
flipping isn't "abusing ignorance"
they are profiting by facilitating market trade by allowing players to quickly sell drops and then putting those products up on the market for longer periods of time because they are more devoted to playing the market, flippers are beneficial to the whole economy.

>>150673517
>Droprates are not high enough such that a single player could completely satisfy the demands of two other players
Good thing it doesn't have to work that way as it isn't the single player but the masses of players that will not only satisfy but exceed the demands of others. When you have a smaller population generating items, you simply have fewer people capable of producing the items needed. As the population size grows you have far more players generating items and while more players participating creates an increased demand overall, the variety of demand also increases exponentially which means you won't have the precise same situations of supply running out as before. Though those situations certainly can exist, they tend to only exist with items possessed by only a few players ever.

>>150673682

because it already out of the game

PoE is a F2P product with minimalist design. They will not add a redundant trade interface because that costs money to develop and solves a problem that doesn't exists.

>>150673851
nigger mmos haven been doing poe.trade-like internal trade systems since 2004

>>150673494
>you can still abuse the ignorance of players. a predetermined system can create items that are really powerful but a good deal or really shitty but expensive and you can take advantage of those players to profit quickly.
No actual tangible profit could be made with such a system. It punishes good traders, forcing them to circumvent what they would view as an unfair tax and gives a crutch to retarded players to have a baseline of currency. It punishes good players who offer niche services: master crafting, challenges, (uber) lab, (uber) Atziri. Let's make the game more casual so shitters don't feel left behind! Fuck you faggot.

>I didn't say anything about Gorge maps but players have been clearing the hardest end game content with cheap builds since this game has existed and that will never change.
Their build might be cheap but mapping isn't. Red maps and "hardest game content" don't drop in your Gorges, faggot. Anyone who built up a red map pool has spent a ton of currency on mapping. You would know this if you weren't a retarded shitter.

>>150674045
Not in NZ they haven't.

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>>150673851

>>150674018
if 1 player does not satisfy 2 players then 100 players do not satisfy 200 players

>>150673676
It's situational but it only takes one situation where build a costs much less than build b but reaches the power cap to prove the whole thing wrong and that has been the case since PoE has existed so it's not even a point for debate, it's just how it is.

>>150673852
Flippers keep good items out of the hands of players with less currency which means fewer players will reach their goals which means more players getting bored quitting sooner. Flippers aren't a good thing.

>>150674321
>Flippers keep good items out of the hands of players with less currency
and get them into the hands of players who want the items more and are willing to pay more
take a microeconomics class some time.

I'm new to the game, right now in my stash I'm hoarding all flasks, all rings, all amulets, all currency items, all skills, a few uniques that seemed good and I might use on an alt, and I try to save items with %quality instead of selling them instantly so I can do that vendor recipe shit at 40% quality added

Anything else I should know? I already did research on vendor recipes and looked up guides for this stuff and I don't think I'm missing anything. Also I shouldn't bother with trading until endgame right?

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This game is shit.
Rate my waifu.

>>150674069
>No actual tangible profit could be made with such a system. It punishes good traders, forcing them to circumvent what they would view as an unfair tax and gives a crutch to retarded players to have a baseline of currency. It punishes good players who offer niche services: master crafting, challenges, (uber) lab, (uber) Atziri. Let's make the game more casual so shitters don't feel left behind! Fuck you faggot.
bunch of autistic shit that nobody but market simulator autists do. good riddance.

>Their build might be cheap but mapping isn't. Red maps and "hardest game content" don't drop in your Gorges, faggot. Anyone who built up a red map pool has spent a ton of currency on mapping. You would know this if you weren't a retarded shitter.
I never said anything about Gorges. Is this a joke? Gorges aren't even relevant content. And yes, maps do cost money. That isn't in any way a point against anything I've said.

>>150674278
It isn't expressed as 1 or 2 players. It's expressed by a fuckload of highly varied loot and a fuckload of highly varied demands. The demands of specific items do not scale 1:1 as more players increases and the kind of loot drop does not scale 1:1 either.

When is that 48 hour race?

>>150674784
>bunch of autistic shit that nobody but market simulator autists do. good riddance.

that is what this game is built around you fucking retard

>>150674481
>and are willing to pay more
aka RMTfags, cancer supplying cancer with more cancer while everybody else suffers.

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>>150674635
would fug

>>150673626
good idea but you would need to mule most gems needed in an ED build

>>150674552
vendor recipes that matter to a new player:
1) links between at least one slot of each color -> chromatic orb
2) 40% quality on flasks -> glassblower's bauble
3) 40% quality on gems -> gemcutter's prism
other than that just vend items individually. Identifying rares is probably a good idea because shards of alteration are better than transmuation and you'll get more (plus alchemy shards, augmentation orbs, and other cool shit). Identifying magic items is technically better than unidentified for the same reasons, but you probably don't have enough scrolls of wisdom to do that so you might as well sell them unidentified.

>>150674552
dont hoard items for alts, its generally pointless unless its a very good item or an a good unique, which you most likely havent found any of

you can hoard quality flasks to make baubles but thats only useful while leveling, soon youll have all the baubles youll need. dont pick up quality white items unless they are at max Q

you can start trading as soon as you start amassing a few chaoses or alts. but its a good idea to wait until merciless or late cruel to begin trading.

use a loot filter and try selling decent stuff you find instead of hoarding it

>>150674947
>this game isn't about actually playing it
>just play the market
wew

>>150674784
>I'm a casual so everyone should be as casual as me and my 20c tabula build
all I'm getting out of your drivel, you catshitter

>>150675242
playing the market is a part of playing the game, whether you like it or not

>>150674784
>The demands of specific items do not scale 1:1 as more players increases
yes they do. Double the players will have double the demand for popular builds and an average of an increase of 100% to every other possible build. At a micro level that might end up being off due to probability but on average that will be the case.

>>150675242

unfortunately for you, trading is a vital part of PoE

you should just quit the game if that aggravates you so

>>150675251
when defending poe build variety:
>all builds are viable, a 20c build can clear all content as well as others
>people just get bored and want to try other things

when defending muh trade:
>only 500 mirror builds can clear content
>20c builds are just to get to maps

>>150675404
>>150675479
>not playing self found
just go play an mmo or something, trading in this game is a fucking hassle

more like
CoC discharge is the only good build and every other build is shit other than
vaal spark for dried lake and gorge-like maps
bladefall mines for boss killing
chaos VMS was really good before they nerfed it

Game of the year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chPRSM8Bi7k

>>150675741
gee i sure love playing budget earthquake or budget flameblast

maybe next ssf i'll play budget essence drain or...

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Why are people still replying to trade autie?

He's gotten BTFO at least twice today already

baited for this exact replies

>>150675741

try overcoming your crippling social anxiety and youll find out trading aint anything special or difficult

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>>150675624
EVERYONE wants to make profit, especially the 20c build, which is cheap either by choice or by default. If you don't want to make profit, you're done with your character, with the league and with the game until the next incentive to have a shitton of currency appears.

Shouldn't an experienced player who can reach end game on a 20c build be given the opportunity to become richer than the shitters who farm Dried Lake on another 20c build? Why do you hate the idea of better players being rewarded for building better, more efficient characters so much?

The few guys who farm Uber Atziri shouldn't be able to dictate the price of Disfavours however they want?

The small subset who can farm Uber Izaro shouldn't be able to dictate the price of rare helmet enchants?

The small subset who farmed their masters to 8 shouldn't be able to offer services for metamod crafting?

The small subset who can safely clear twinned Daresso shouldn't be able to offer services to challengefags?

I'm not telling you how to play the game because you're a shitter. Don't tell me how to play the game because you can't stand the idea of a better player becoming rich.

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does map quality affect the chances of getting 8 mods?

prove you're not a catshitter and I'll answer your question

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ok here's my demi i won

>>150675472
>Double the players will have double the demand for popular builds
popular builds are constantly changing and there are often many ways to build popular builds so again, this doesn't indicate a 1:1 item demand increase

that's also assuming the current pool isn't too small of a sample size. how much more would players trade, how many more players would trade if they had a better means to? it could change everything.

>At a micro level that might end up being off due to probability but on average that will be the case
So if you base your statistics off of 10 players, you think those 10 will scale 1:1 to 10 million players?

The more players get added to the pool trading the more highly varied demands become while exponentially increasing the supply for highly sought after items up to an extent. At the very top end there will always be items than only a few have no matter the system in place due to them simply not dropping or being able to be readily crafted.

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>>150675843
I was wondering all this time who AA kept reminding me of and it finally dawned on me he's Stephanie Curry's long lost brother
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrebLF5twU4

>>150675084
You would have to mule up to merveil's area, which might not be worth it depending on how many hours you're sinking into the race.

Controlled Destruction would be act 2 and Enfeeble act 3, but I don't think you need either. Your defense could just be iron reflexes with Grace, then an evasion shield scaled with by shield defense nodes. You'd probably have 8k armour with shit gear in merciless.

You'd mule Essence Drain, Void Manipulation, Flame Dash, and Clarity.

I think ED is more of a one/two week race kind of build though, as the gem really need levels to become good.

>>150676832
i think all of this is cringe worthy. have a nice life

>>150677632
>they actually pronounce his name like "steph"

>>150677871
are u killing yourself for reals?

>>150677871
What's more cringeworthy is you want, you need mommy and daddy GGG to regulate the market for you because you're too stupid to learn to trade by yourself. You need mommy and daddy GGG to put a determined price on every item because you're getting tired of being ripped off and how dare those players be better than you at trading and get richer and be more successful? Why do you have to RMT to catch up with them! Not fair! Please daddy Chris, come to my rescue, I'm just a new, inexperienced player with a 5-year experience!

>>150675919
>can't name one
you get BTFO just by existing

>leveling my claw Frost Blades build
>go from Sunder to Earthquake
>fuckhuge damage increase

What the flying fuck? How the hell did GGG not think this was inbalanced?

>>150677696
a 30 minute mule isn't a big deal in a 48h race

honestly tempted to go pathfinder now, have to whip up a tree and see if it pans out

gems hit lvl 20 at around level 90 so it shouldn't be a big issue if you're aiming for 90+ in the first place

>>150678473
>claw Frost Blades build

forgot your cat

>>150678473
What skill do you think Marauders use in races? EQ or Sunder? The answer might surprise you

>>150678251
no your autism is killing me
>>150678306
to be clear: there's absolutely nothing remotely engaging about the current trade system on an intellectual level. it's a literal required waste of time in order to participate in what poopsocking autists think of as an achievement which doesn't actually grant you anything because there's no point to grinding the hardest content other than to say "look mom i grinded the hardest content" because the only real challenge in the game is getting to 100 before somebody else but that will never happen unless you're a mega poopsock autist.

congratulations on your literal nobody cares achievements, you earned it.

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>>150678530
D-Don't worry it looks good!

>>150678778
>do you think racers use a level 12 skill or a level 28 skill

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>>150678926

>>150678838
>to be clear: there's absolutely nothing remotely engaging about the current trade system on an intellectual level.
And you're proposing an even more dumbed down trade system, you fucking retard. Not content with that, you also what to kill any other alternatives to trading for making profit, probably because you were never good enough for them. No, you're the shitter who pays for an Atziri kill, not the one who farms her.

>congratulations on your literal nobody cares achievements, you earned it.
That's literally what achievements are, you have to earn them. Congratulations on not sounding like a complete retard for the first time tonight, even if by mistake, moron.