Stop this shit

>>389825634
Why? It means you play a different game every time.

how about i procede to fuck your ass

>>389825679
it's lazy game design

>>389825760
come at me bro!

>>389825679
Reassembling a few pieces doesn't make it different enough to make the braindeadness thanks to lack of human design worth it.

>>389825634
>pic
I don't even know what you wrote, but I guarantee it's some dumb shit.

>>389825771
You still have to create the assets and general layout for the engine. It all depends on the devs.
>>389825837
As opposed to arranging the same pieces the same way, every time.

Crafting
Stats/Leveling
Skinner Box design
Voice Acting

>>389826006
and that doesn't make a good lvl design

>>389825634
Roguelikes are fine, be it FTL or a first person shooter. Those games would never get made if they had to actually make levels. In bigger budget titles I'm ok if it's like a challenge dungeon or something, but not if the main levels are procedurally generated.

>>389825841
t. too lazy to read

every game should have procedural generation
for the post game dungeon

>>389826006
>As opposed to arranging the same pieces the same way, every time.
You lose replayability in exchange for good and thought out level design. It's a necessary trade off.

>>389826139
i just played a metroidvania with procedural level.
i'm angry as fuck now.
bad idea

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"unlocking" characters via random lootbox drops or real money purchase. What the fuck ever happened to actually unlocking characters via gameplay. Binding of Isaac is the only game in recent memory that still does it.

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>>389826291
>think out your procedural algorithm
>keep both

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loot crates

If I want to waste my money on some dumb pixels just give it to me fucking straight up, none of this rng bullshit.

>>389825634
Why?

>>389826449
greed

Microtransaction credits
Seriously, there's no fucking point to them, it just adds another unnecessary step to the process

>>389825634

It can be good depending on the game. Building games (simcity, factorio, sims) essentially demand it.

>>389826101
Explain carefully why it doesn't.
>>389826291
having it being procedurally generated doesn't mean it isn't good and well thought out level design. The computer doesn't magically make those levels, the algorithms and assets have to be carefully programmed to fit.

Having a kneejerk reaction to a concept /v/ told you to hate

>>389826761
It's the same as gift cards for physical stores, they know it is unlikely you will spend the whole amount so they profit more off the sale.

>>389825634
Nothing wrong with procedural level generation as a concept, but most (if not all) recent examples are badly implemented.

Every dungeon / maze level should have some degree of boring corridors and room that are just fillers and contribute nothing to the level itself. However, they should connect between well designed and interesting areas.

Problem with most pgl imo is that they lack the interesting parts (it's just a heap of random fillers and then a boss) and the randomly generated parts are ugly, repetitive, and boring.

>>389826929
>having it being procedurally generated doesn't mean it isn't good and well thought out level design.
procedural game design limits the possibilities and also makes pacing nearly impossible. it usually ends up feeling like a successions of bland rooms.

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Grinding and crafting

>>389826929
learning curve for the players
lvl look garbage, but it's ok for indies developers

>>389826975
At least with gift cards, they have the benefit of being a gift, credits serve no real purpose other than scamming you out of a couple dollars

>>389827006
>procedural game design limits the possibilities and also makes pacing nearly impossible.
It doesn't, levels are designed to accommodate for the procedural generation. It only feels like a succession of bland rooms if the dev is incompetent to begin with, but that applies to regular level design as well.

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Cover-based health regen.
At leaat it's finally starting to go the way of nu-metal. Though I dare say that infinite ammo, popularized ny Overwatch, is proving even worse.

>>389826929
>having it being procedurally generated doesn't mean it isn't good and well thought out level design
There's no thought in randomizing set pieces. You can argue "just put effort into the pieces lol" and every hack procedurally generated game tries to do this, but do they ever work together and have an actually good flow? No.
There is thought in doing it by hand. A human understands the psychological intricacies in the process of playing a game and designs levels with that in mind. An algorithm doesn't.

>>389827142
>learning curve for the players
If the game relies on memorization, then it's not a very good game to begin with.

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>>389826257
I'm all about that X Cup

>>389827349
t. brainlet with zero attention span
A good game needs a balance of memorization and spontaneity.

>he doesn't know about DF

>>389827349
i hope it's bait

>>389827545
Anon, DF only works because of Toady's deep and unrelenting obsession.

>>389825679
kill yourself

>>389827527
>>389827578
>>389827620
You appear to be frustrated. Is this what you do when you lose an argument?

>>389827589
Not an argument.
He shows what's possible with procedural generation.
Just going into legends mode of a 200 year old world gives better stories than 90% of modern RPGs.

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>>389825679
>why would I want to look at da vinci art when these chimps smear feces on the canvas a different way each time??
probably a trump voter too the dumb nigger

>>389825634
Torchlight II makes it work beautifully.

No other games I've played have done it as well though.

>>389827735
we are not the same person.
and no i'm not.
you just prove you don't know how video game works

>>389827867
It doesn't matter, you devolved into a hissy fit instead of discussing like an adult. Go back to your room.

test

>>389827961
if you think so.

>>389827794
>Why would failed analogy and false equivalence
There's nothing analogous to procedural generation in art. Also level design needs to be functional and work towards a goal. Not all types of games would benefit from it, but the ones that do allow for modular design, which can benefit from changing levels.

>>389827961
Sorry, your retardation was too much to take in.
But here's something for you to refute
>A good game needs a balance of memorization and spontaneity.

>procedural generation apologist gets btfo
I love you /v/. There might still be hope in video games.

>>389828290
Sure, let's make blanket statements instead of addressing the points, I'm sure it will help you save face.

>>389828341
>Can't discuss properly
>b-but u got BTFO
Arguing like a child doesn't further your point, champ.

"Souls-like"
"Metroidvania"

>>389828526
everything is soul like if we listen garbage reddit now

>>389828419
Countless people have attempted to discuss properly with you.
But sure, keep hiding behind that "but they hurt muh fee-fees" wall if you think that will make you win the argument.

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>>389826291
>You lose replayability
You don't even lose that. Good or even great level design will have me replaying it to experience it over and over again. The "replayable" procedural generated games make me grow board of the gimmick within 30 minutes.

>>389828639
>Countless people have attempted to discuss properly with you.
More like you pretending to be two people throwing insults around. I wonder why the subject frustrates you this much. Developing a good looking and functional procedural level generator is anything but lazy, and can have good results. Pretty much the developer is the limit.

you can make procedural algorithms that generate amazing maps, and there's an endless amount of ways you can combine generated content with hand-crafted content. Most video games either randomly slap rooms together or use perlin noise to make some wacky caves and call it a day. Don't hate the concept, hate the implementation

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>>389826449

>"if you don't like it then don't buy it"

>>389828689
True. With hand crafted levels you can in fact create multiple approaches to a problem, increasing replayability. The dude sex series is one example of this.
How will procedural generation ever recover?

>>389826929
>the algorithms and assets have to be carefully programmed to fit.
lolwut

That's inherently not true. The only thing the program needs to have to make "procedural" instead of random is to have a line in the code that makes sure a path can be charted from the entrance to the exit.

>>389826449
Buy the DLC goy.

Hello guy´s im a guy ho hates overwatch a lot cuz the tf2 thing so um im not here to fight of why i think overwatch is a copy of tf2 or stuff like that im actually here to find ppl ho can help to shut the overwatch servers im sick of it so good luck

>>389825679
So you can either choose from having a handful of really nice and well-crafted levels, or an infinity variety of the same 40 parts spliced into all sorts of different monstrosities, some possibly unwinnable, most bland as fuck.

>>389828728
I'm one of the 4 people in this thread calling you out on your autism. Don't be surprised when your shitty game design principle gets called out for what it is. Not everybody is a mindless sheep like you.
It frustrates me because it kills creativity.

>>389828890
designing a good level generator is a creative task

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heard you talkin shit about procedural level generation

Seriously, I've heard a lot of retarded complaints about XCOM 2 but not even retards complain about its procedural levels. Other games should take notes.

>>389827752
Okay, here's a better argument.

Dwarf Fortress is a simulation, not a game. Randomly generated content is fine because you're not really expected to travel through it and overcome obstacles set in a path between you and completing the game's main goal. It's to watch your dwarves build up a thing and then have it all slowly burn and crumble over time.

>>389825679
The only game I know with good procedural generation is the first torchlight game, where the tilesets were so small you outright never played new levels, even better you went through some areas that seemed to be handcrafted.

Holy fuck I wish the game had a sequel.

>>389829025
you can make randomly generated paths just like you can map randomly generated worlds

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>>389829096
"Path" was metaphorical, son.

I'm fine with procedural generation as long as it's not DCSS levels of fucking stupid.

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Reminder that the advocates for procedural generation are also supporters of the Open World "genre", in which actual layouts -which are supposed to be designed around the game the player is playing- is traded for "muh BIG sandbox", which is just a giant mesh that a modeler sculpted with an oversized Z-brush and then padded with "content" to fill the space. With this, and the mobile market taking over, the new generation of gamers isn't really accustomed to actual game design, so they don't know what they are trading off.

>>389829564
good roguelikes have way more involved game design than your average linear action game

>>389829564
>Reminder that the advocates for procedural generation are also supporters of the Open World "genre"
Reminder that generalizations are the tool of the idiot.

>>389828835
>That's inherently not true. The only thing the program needs to have to make "procedural" instead of random is to have a line in the code that makes sure a path can be charted from the entrance to the exit.
Your grasp on the subject is baffling, I wonder what possessed you to comment on it.

>>389829564
open world is a mistake.
take mgs 5 , people will say it's bad because it's unfinished.
but the open world meme doesn't fit with this serie.

>>389829783
>the open world meme doesn't fit with this serie
true, doesn't mean open worlds are inherently bad

>>389829783
Finished game aside, if MGSV had a world worth exploring with interesting locations, bases, secrets to be found, etc. it would have been a brilliant game. Instead we got two roadblocks and a building between miles of nothing.

>Company owns good IP
>It sits for more than a decade without a sequel, remaster or port

FUCK YOU SONY

>>389829897
nobody can defend exclusivity

>>389829065
There's a Torchlight 2 nigga

>>389829025
>DF is not a game
It is. It's both a simulation that happens to be a game.

"A game is a structured form of play, usually undertaken for enjoyment and sometimes used as an educational tool.[1] Games are distinct from work, which is usually carried out for remuneration, and from art, which is more often an expression of aesthetic or ideological elements. "

DF is a game with exceptionally good procedural generation. It's not only the world but even creatures, art and history are randomly generated and it works. It's an ideal other indie devs should aim for.