Meta

>It's been known for years how to easily make a game which has a huge range of characters and abilities yet no meta.

How?

>>389419415
By making the game so shit it's never played. Think about it. How can there be a meta if no one wants to play it to find & establish one?

>>389419198
... meta is whatever the playerbase gets up their asshole about how the game should be played.

I'm only here for Froppy. Froppy is so cute and I love her and her voice. I really want to make her a happy person.

>>389420798
i will protect frog girl

>>389419415
By making all abilities really powerful.

For example, say a game has an SMG and a chaingun.
The chaingun has a little bit of a spinup time and less accuracy, but somewhat more DPS.

If you exaggerate all weapons, then the SMG becomes a very precise and deadly burst-fire weapon, and the chaingun is slow and clumsy weapon of instant death.

Now, since there is an extreme-DPS weapon, you can add extreme armour to the game, that makes players a lot slower but SMGs can only peck away at.

So you have four possible loadouts:
>Light SMG, great against light chaingun and also great for slowly killing heavy chaingun
>Heavy SMG, great against light SMG and light chaingun
>Light Chaingun, slaughters all that it manages to ambush, great against heavy chaingun
>Heavy Chaingun, very good at defending, great against heavy SMG

These loadouts are all wildly different yet very important; thus, the 4v4 meta would be one of each loadout.

And you can just keep on throwing more variables into the loadout.

Ring Runner was like this, but no one plays it anymore.

>>389420695
t. Overwatch shitter who can't escape bronze

Meta is simply survival of the fittest. Whatever works best, most players end up playing.

>>389420941
>writes a bunch of shit on how to make game without meta
>says what the meta is at the end

?????????????????

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>>389419198
>It's been known for years how to easily make a game which has a huge range of characters and abilities yet no meta.
Name one game without a meta

God you're fucking dumb.

>>389421024
That is different, how?

And usually it's just rote copying of whoever's winning at the upper end. Which means when one of those upper enders figures out a good counter, there shifts the meta.

>>389420941
Just not true. The lack of a meta requires a perfectly balanced game.

That's not enough though - even chess has a meta. In order to make a game have no meta, you need to make every single option possible as effective/non-effective as another option, tactics included.

And that just ends up not being a game.

Can you please define "meta" first before going on autistic retard rants about it?

>>389421236
Chess, being turn based, actually isn't perfectly balanced.

>>389421228
Meta isn't an opinion. Meta is an observed fact based on usage and strategies, not what other players tell you that it is.

>>389421332
You don't say?

>>389421491
Which is, again, rote copying of the people who are winning.

They could be winning because the options they are taking are just that OP, or simply because they're that skillful. Or somewhere between.

>>389421236
You can go even further beyond though.
Give the game an anti-meta: Whatever playstyle is most powerful at the time will naturally become extremely weak as players adapt to counter it.

That way, the game can have playstyles that are better, but they're never allowed to become a meta.

To use the example I gave before:
Say that for whatever reason, Light Chaingun is super popular.
What counters it?
Light SMG.
If Light Chaingun is super popular, Light SMG will end up becoming popular too as a counter to it.
Then if Light SMG gets too popular, Heavy SMG counters it.

This may sound like Paper-Scissors-Rock, but bear in mind that this is a greatly simplified scenario where there's only four loadouts and they're all minmaxing.
In real games that demonstrate a strong anti-meta (TF2x10 for example) there's hundreds of possible loadouts, and often you get situations where two players can't easily kill each other.

>>389420798
>>389420936
Momo best girl. Tsuyu a very close second.

>>389421927
Twice Momo?

>>389421043
Skull girls

>>389421659
Doesn't matter. It's still not an opinion.

>>389422273
The slavish devotion to it, however, is.

>>389422126
Yes, I would Momo twice. Once in the morning and once in the evening.

>>389422332
People like winning wow, what a shock

>>389422332
Doesn't matter. It's still not an opinion.

I get that you're assblasted that a teammate told you to pick a different hero based on their perception of "the meta" (likely incorrect), but your little anecdote has no effect on the definition of what a meta is.

I want to fuck that frog.

>>389421035
I think he meant was a game where nothing is excluded from the meta.

>>389421806
That's stupid and you're stupid. It sounds like you've never spent a day in your life thinking about game design before opening your whore mouth and pretending that you've solved a buzzword.

Meta isn't a problem, narrow meta is. Creating a merry-go-round of hard counters is just as fucking stupid as making only 3 top tier characters viable in high level play.

>>389423272
>This may sound like Paper-Scissors-Rock, but bear in mind that this is a greatly simplified scenario where there's only four loadouts and they're all minmaxing.
>In real games that demonstrate a strong anti-meta (TF2x10 for example) there's hundreds of possible loadouts, and often you get situations where two players can't easily kill each other.

>>389421806
Your game is already too complicated. 4 classes? There'll be a meta. You'll need both the standard playerbase and the pro scene to pick each class with equal consistency for there not to be one.

Even in a game with one class, there'd be a meta for how to play most effectively with that class.

You need to do a lot more research on what a meta is.

>>389423410
Yes, I read your stupid post the first time. All you did was say to pretend that your terrible ideas were actually good ones. You don't actually understand why TF2 was well balanced.

>>389419198
Because a strong meta is healthy for a game's replayability and only special snowflake shitters disagree.

>>389421806
>Give the game an anti-meta: Whatever playstyle is most powerful at the time will naturally become extremely weak as players adapt to counter it.

That's not an anti-meta, you total ape. That's just a new meta.

You've totally backpedalled on the idea of games not having a meta at all. That should send a signal that you probably don't know what you're talking about

>>389419198
I don't think you know what meta means or how it starts.

>>389419198
Meta will always exist in games with builds and such. Fighting games tend to be fairly meta free.

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>>389419198
>why do competitive games have a meta
I
FUCKING
WONDER

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>>389421043

>>389423614
Nobody disagrees. It's just that people like you toss out phrases like "strong meta" without defining what it is, or actually providing an example of one.

Give me an example of a "strong meta", your reasons why, and I'll deconstruct it for you. Go on.

>>389423669
>meta: What's most effective becomes most popular
>anti-meta: What's most popular becomes least effective

>>389423687
Ring Runner never had a meta from dawn to death.

>>389423819
I'll take your word for it.

>>389423805
A strong meta exists in a game with poor balance, such that there is decisively only a handful of ways to actually play successfully.

Metas suck, what's worse when the devs pander to it. Like League does.

Once upon a time "jungling" wasn't much of a thing and towers were more than just free money at the 10 minute mark.

>Mineta has touched Froppy's chest before you ever could

IT'S NOT FAIR

>>389423786
Pffffft hahahaha

>>389423819
Incorrect.

meta: What's most popular. Often what's most effective.
anti-meta: A strategy used to counter what's most popular. Isn't used enough to become the new meta.

>>389423903
Meta can exist independent of balance. I recall of story of LoL where the patch notes indicated they had nerfed a character. His play rate immediately plummeted, but they had fucked up and not put the changes though. Just some numbers on a page was enough to kill his pick rate.

>>389423903
Oh. My bad, I thought you were OP and tossing meta around like it was a new definition. Carry on your way.

>>389424116
Ah, that's your meaning of the word anti-meta.
Which doesn't make sense, because it's still part of the meta, assuming that it's consistently popular as a counter.

Why would you disagree with someone's definition of a word when yours is self-contradicting?

>>389424159
Which is where my point about it just being aping the higher level players comes in.

>>389424320
Not him, but I thought anti-meta was commonly used to express methods and strategies made to specifically counter the current meta.
I've never heard anyone use it to describe a past version of the meta

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>>389419198
What is a meta?
Honestly. I don't play multiplayer games.

>>389420941
They've done this in many games, but time and time again some abilities match up better with the rest of the roster, or are stronger against the popular picks.

Even in games you can't select characters, a meta will develop around strong moves or strategies.

>>389424642
it's explained here>>389423819

>>389424320
""my definition"" of the word anti-meta is at the very least that of Magic and comp pokemon. I think you pulled your definition out of your ass.

>because it's still part of the meta, assuming that it's consistently popular as a counter.
>assuming
It's anti-meta as long as it's not as popular as the meta. As soon as it becomes more popular than the meta - it's the new meta.

>Why would you disagree with someone's definition of a word when yours is self-contradicting?
You're the one claiming meta and anti-meta are the same thing. The current most popular strategy. That's just a wasted definition.

>>389424641
From what I gather, he believes that the anti-meta can surpass the meta while still being referred to as the "anti-meta".

This literally makes no sense, as the old meta isn't around to counter anymore. Any replacement strategy would be referred to as the current meta.

>>389419198
you're a retard

"meta" is something every game has, the fact that you made this topic means you never understood what it meant

why is /v/ filled with underage morons?

>>389422157
Nigger, are you retarded? Certain characters in Skullgirls are WAY better than others.

It is the META to use Big Band as an assist because he has armor and smashes like half the screen. What the fuck?

>>389424925
Exactly, it's dynamic.

Which is how a game having an anti-meta is distinct from having a meta: An anti-meta isn't a specific set of loadouts, it's an aspect of the game.

If a game has anti-meta, that means that the game is designed such that no meta can develop as anything popular will be dynamically countered by the playerbase to the point of uselessness.

>>389424642
It means "Current tactics, character, weapon, and other choices that are considered strong by players".

>>389424642
Most
Effective
Tactic
Available

>>389419198
Stop shitposting with my wife please.

>>389425091
fuckwit, the idea of anti-meta is nonsensical, because again, EVERY FUCKING GAME HAS A META, ALL IT MEANS IS THE HABITUAL WAY GAMERS INTERACT WITH THE SYSTEMS OF THE GAME IN ATTEMPTING TO ACHIEVE OPTIMAL RESULTS

YOU FUCKING RETARDS

this fucking thread is filled with so many fucking morons and pseudo-intellects its unbelievable

like i never realized how low the IQ was on /v/ until this thread

>>389419198
>old "meta"
>I see a lot of people doing X. I'm going to do Y because it's good against X.
>I see a lot of people doing X. I'm going to do Y because they'll be expecting X.
>I see a lot of people doing X. I'm going to do Z because they'll be countering the expected X with Y.

>Nu-"meta"
>I see a lot of people doing X. I'm going to do X because it must be better.

It's not new, people just started using it to describe something every shitter and their brother does when they can't think for themselves, so naturally it comes up in every god damn sentence because everyone's a shitter.

>>389425091
t. esl

>An anti-meta isn't a specific set of loadouts, it's an aspect of the game.
Incorrect.
It's a specific loadout/strategy used in an attempt to undercut the current meta.

>If a game has anti-meta, that means that the game is designed such that no meta can develop as anything popular
Incorrect.
Anti-meta is a descriptor, not a noun. There is no such thing as an Anti-metagame without a metagame.

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Superior girl coming through.

>hurrdurrr game metas exist because they're imperfectly balanced but devs have surely learned by now.

No they haven't. Many of the best games, MP and SP alike, arise from pure accidents wherein various features work together in JUST the right sort of way that the overall game works. The devs never intended this, they don't understand this, and the next time they try to capitalize on this they focus on one element and it fails hard.

>>389424932
This. It's like the same idiots who argue "Tiers aren't real. All characters are equally strong if you're good at them". As long as there is a difference in characters, some of them will be more effective than others ever so slightly. Even in Rock Paper Scissors there's a tier list because throwing scissors because throwing scissors is more unnatural than Rock or Paper, so it's naturally picked less.

>>389425408
Don't worry, it's just OP who believes this inane shit about an anti-meta. It's like believing Anti-bacterials serve a purpose outside of countering bacteria.

>>389425450
>people just started using it to describe something every shitter and their brother does
People's interpretation of data is not the meta.
The data is the meta.

>>389425818
This is a bait thread. How OP got so many bite beats me

>>389425450
Those are both Meta, dumbass.

>>389425580
You're dumb. Meta is literally short for metagame. Let me pull out Wikipedia...
>"Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game."
In the case that we're talking about competitive games, Meta are an unspoken set of rules of things you are expected to do if you want to win. This includes picking some characters, weapons, and loadouts, and ignoring others. This means playing the game a certain way, and not playing it other ways. Anti-Meta is normally a choice of tactics that shouldn't normally be effective, but can be under certain circumstances (Like running no supports in Overwatch, but your entire team consists of Reaper, S76, Roadhog, D.Va, Tracer, and Bastion, so everyone has some way to heal themselves).. The word Anti-Meta isn't common in Fighting Games because picking a bad character that's effective against a popular strong one (IE: Hakan Vs. Balrog in SFIV) is just called counterpicking, and is actually a common sight.


>>389425898
I've met people IRL who's espoused stupid opinions like the ones in this thread, which makes me believe that some people here are being genuine.

>>389426754
Now pull out wikipedia for anti-metagame.
Ah. It doesn't exist.

>>389426831
Your right. Because like I said, it's literally shorthand for something that somehow works while completely ignoring the metagame. Normally people just use it to describe wierd counterpicks. Ocasionally it's used to describe fraud tactics that only work when the opponents don't understand what you're doing.

Either way, it's a dumb word with no specific definition, when other words (Counterpicking, cheese) work just as well.

>>389419198
The meta comes from the community not devs unless your Riot or Blizzard. Even in their games there are strong tools that are overlooked and not considered meta because the community didn't explore enough.
Best example of hidden meta is O.Hawk, nigger was untouched for about a decade and it took years for him to finally be considered high tier

>>389427275
What's great about O.Hawk?

>>389427508
OS SPD. He can basically SPD you at any time you're open and never whiff.

My hero academia is garbage