Is there any way to fix MMO communities?

>>388573240
Remove stuff like dungeon matchmaking/crossrealm sign up and join form anywhere shit.

Make it so you have to find a group, and move to your destination.

>>388573526
this

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>>388573526
fpbp

>>388573240
everyone who plays MMOs is autistic though

>>388573526
Then everyone quits because MMOfags are babies.

>>388573240
Make content unsoloable.

>>388573763
then people who are actually not gay stay. community saved.

Are there any free to play MMO's that are worth it? I want something new to play with my friends but they're all poorfags.

>>388573960
>community saved.
But the profits are gone.

>>388573526
one true answer
>>388573763
Unfortunately also true

When dungeon content is the most mundane shit why would I ever bond with anybody.

In games like WoW true friendships are crafted in raiding guilds, where you actually need to rely on your band of brehs.

>>388573998
Swtor for it's stories is worth it at least.

>>388574119
It's not just the dungeon though. No one one talks to anyone outside of the guild bubble.

>>388574049
i guess

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>>388573998
Are they at least lifeless NEETs? You could grind for years in DFO except you can't because of the Stamina system but that's what alts are for, eventually you'll be too burnt out to even play anyway.

You have to remake it from the ground up as a game that requires player grouping from all levels of play. It's not as simple as removing fast travel or matchmaking in a modern MMO, since it's content model requires those to function.

Games need to be more open ended. Themeparks are dead.

Mabinogi is almsot as close as you can get to what manga/anime envision mmos as and thats sort of the goal.

Doing skills and crafting needs to be fun on top of good combat. Of course take away any instancing and if at all possible have as few servers as possible that can handle large loads of players.You want the playerbase to interact not all be antisocial and only stick to their 2 or 3 friends.

That being said you should have options and choices to solo content but should be highs kill cap. Games need to also not be holy trinity bullshit it could be the easier way to play but it shouldn't be required to do a dungeon. We need action games vs this push 1,2,3,4 repeat.

>>388573240
It's a genre that requires active interaction between humans played by autists. You can't.

>>388574232
Yeah because why would you? Everybody who plays WoW has been doing all that shit a million times already.

Guilds are where the actual socializing takes place.

>>388574539
Of course the fucking WoWfag is the cancer killing MMOs.

>>388573998
OSRS? Granted I haven't touched it in years so it may have gone to shit

wikis killed MMOs
no reason to ask any questions and chat because you can just google everything and get an answer
no difficulty in the genre outside of super end game stuff doesn't either, complete lack of the need to group up and share wisdom

>>388573240
In the case of this comic it's bringing dungeons back to being uninstanced and tough to clear and putting the xp back into the mobs and not as a reward for clearing it as fast as possible.

>>388573763
Worked well in EQ and FFXI. Everyone's spoiled to shit, now.

No, MMOs have an aging playerbase that has other commitments like families and jobs, they will walk away from a game that doesn't accommodate them. Also what people say they want from an MMO isn't the same as what they actually want from an MMO, see Wildstar.

>>388574373
>since it's content model requires those to function.
Not really. Vanilla WoW had neither of those things and that was considered the pinnacle modern MMO experience

People would bitch and moan if those easymode features were taken away but they'd have to get over it eventually

>>388574049
>Profits
And now the shitty games who focused on making money before quality die and we're left with only the best.

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>>388574585
Make content thats actually hard to clear and people will have a reason to create bonds with others.

All the shit that came after WoW is much more fucking babby about any sort of content than that, especially milquetoast garbage like GW2 and FF14.
You definitely wont impress people and make them socialize by adding more epin single player cinematics and grab ten bear asses quests.

>>388574667
To add to this, more specifically Data Mining ruined MMOs.

>>388574170
Is it no longer the abortion it was through the TORtanic era?
>>388574287
They pretty much all are, yeah. Thanks for the rec.
>>388574630
Thanks for the idea. I think one of them still plays Runescape on and off actually. Shame those vanilla WoW private servers are so barren, or I'd try to rope them into playing those.

>>388573998
Elysium WoW.

>>388575161
Yeah it is quite improved now. But if you are not into star wars at all you will probably not enjoy it

>>388574813
Those type of developers does not exist anymore.

>>388575293
I beg to differ. None of them are making MMOs, but they exist. There are many Slavic developers who make games for the sake of games.

>>388575360
That's what they tell you

>>388575232
One of them is obsessed with Star Wars so that could work, thanks.
>>388575174
I have an account on there, yet to play it with friends. Hopefully we can get on when it's more populated.

>>388574813
More like you're left with nothing because developers will stop supporting those games and move on to something they can get profit from.

>>388573526
That was the best but also it made some far away dungeons classified as "well uh fuck no" ones, sadly.

>play wow alliance
>hey people of my level bracket in that zone
>how about a razorfen crawls
>"i don't want to die of old age getting there"

And that shit would have been fixed by having proper transport & mounts..

>ITT: wildstar taught people fucking nothing

>>388575360
Too bad they only make WRPGs and "survival" games.

Let me know when that region enters a genre that isn't complete garbage.

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>>388573240
MMO communities? like 4chan and tumblr? Just tell them that they're victims, tell them there's people getting free stuff, tell them they deserve more and that you're going to change that and make stupid memes so they feel like your one of them.

that's how you "fix" these fantasy world communities.

>>388575663
>he thinks a game that had shit gameplay, shit art, and a shit story compares to what people want
Naw, I played wildstar for 1 year it was shit mate.

>>388574724
>Also what people say they want from an MMO isn't the same as what they actually want from an MMO, see Wildstar.
I didn't ask for a shitty leveling system, which was very unfun and I had more fun leveling up in Everquest 1.

>inbeforeBUTITANMMOTHING!

>>388574373
There's a lot more to a community than just leveling buddies. If you make a game that demands grouping for everything people will form up into guilds and you won't have any wider community. MMOs need to stop being linear and stop being designed around absolutely everyone doing all the same content in the same order for the same reason; something like what >>388574478 said. Player roles should be defined at the community level, not just what they can bring to a mob farming party.

>>388575880
Yeah it was. It was also exactly what people kept saying they wanted. You know. Shit gameplay.

>Shit art, shit story
WoW makes how much? noone cares about art or story.

>>388573815
content should be soloable if you have the skill and equipment, but no more solo everyhting bullshit with basic level gear first time trying.

>>388574820
That's what logic says, yet in my experience, FFXIV players have been the most social of any morepig I've ever played. Maybe the aesthetics or dev name draws in certain kinds of players? I don't know.

>>388575663
Wildstar is the natural result of too much non-MMO shit infesting MMOs. People end up playing MMOs specifically for their non-MMO content like raids and then someone tries to make a raid focused MMO and it's shit in every possible way. If they had made something more akin to a co-op RPG with a similar structure to raids I think it would've been much more successful.

>>388575663

beta

>we want 40-man raiding, just like in the good old days!
>we want attunements, just like in the good old days!
>we want hard dungeons, brutal dungeons, just like in the good old days!
>we want cool as fuck pvp where you can build bases and shit!

launch

>the gaaaame is too haaaaaaaaaaarddddddd how do you expect me to get medals so i can raaaaaaaiddddd carbine nerf pls ;_;

>>388576268
lmao I never played a more anti social MMO than FF14.

Fucking garbage single player shit from start to finish.

>>388575574
>remove global chat menu
>no more negative bitching cock sucking faggots demoralizing everything because they want attention

uo didnt have global chat and it was fucking great. you met someone in moonglow and you knew he was a moonglow homeboy. see some guy at brit bank and you knew he was some epeen fuckboi.

>>388575663

Wildstar ended up on death's door for two very specific reasons. Vanilla-WoW pandering, and incompetent over-zealous developers.

It actually was a lot more innovative and interesting than people give it credit for.

remove dungeon finder
people should not be able to find parties without talking to other people

>>388574287
Did that Imagine private server end up happening?

>>388575780
That's a pretty dumb post.

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>>388573240

>Is there any way to fix MMO communities?

Stop trying to make $100m+ AAA MMORPGs that have to have a million subscribers to be "successful". The MMO genre has always been a niche genre and the kinds of people that honestly love MMO communities and all the wonderful and terrible things that come with them is pretty small.

WoW made everyone think that in order to have a successful game you needed to be just as big and have just as much skinner-box focused bullshit to keep people playing but in reality there are people that have played, and continue to play much smaller less scripted MMOs for years and years and years.

Normal MMO players don't suffer from the boom and bust cycle of patches making them quit games that they love and hate at the same time only to be dragged back in, they keep playing because they make their own fun in between times when small dedicated development teams add updates to games that they honestly care about.

There are dozens of MMOs out there with thriving little communities, but you aren't bothering to look for those, you're too focused on chasing the next "big thing" not realizing that those big things will never have what you're looking for.

Go out and explore, find that small game that speaks to you, make some friends, go on an adventure and enjoy that community.

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>>388576268
>FFXIV players have been the most social of any morepig I've ever played.
FFXIV player here for the past 2 years. The game has one of the most anti-social userbases I've ever seen. I very much doubt your experience has been that different

>>388573240
No.

>>388575663
>>388576341
Protip: A vocal minority said most of that stuff. Then they shut up cause they got what they wanted and a different vocal minority piped off who sheep-backed off other people into thinking they would like the game and then found out they hated it. A bunch of bugs every patch didn't help.
>Manage to even fuck up F2P launch with a bug in the 3rd dungeon where the Chain wave of that one boss wouldn't end because one of the spikes holding one of the players down became immortal and he'd just wipe the party because he would spam a heavy AoE until the Spikes were all broken
I agree they were retarded to listen to the people asking for that shit, but to lump everyone together is also a mistake.
Attunement was the only part that really needed to be toned down.

LineageII pvp-like, global pvp was amazing.

>>388577139
Filtered but this would be great.Especially guilds fighting for bosses that drop unique gear.

>>388573526
I miss just hanging out in zones until someone in general chat called for a tank. Fast ques don't have the same satisfaction.

>>388577052

Not that poster but I could write a book on what happened to Wildstar, needless to say it wasn't 1 thing. Also those 5 man dungeons were legit harder than anything of that scale in pretty much any other MMO which while noble was a terrible fucking idea.

>>388573240
Make games that require you to cultivate friendships - or at least temporary alliances

Remove dungeon/party finders
Remove cross server/realm interaction
Do not homogenise classes so that unique strengths and weaknesses are genuinely important - and correctly using your classes unique properties is a way to display your skill - making your skill noticeable

These are the top 3 really. If i think about more recent WoW or FFXIV (playing atm) they have obviously catered to the more normie audience ,which i cant neccesarily blame them for, by making it so you can quickly get into the content, blast through it, and get out

The problem is, you now need quite a lot of content before things get stale.

IMO it's much better to have less content, but make it damn difficult and require a commited group of solid players to clear it - and quit with the obsession of it having to be cleared in one go

Don't get me wrong, shouting in Orgrimmar for hours and hours at a time for a tank or healer to run WC or whatever with wasn't exactly a delightful time - but once you got in, you were there for hours and you knew it. You also knew that it was probably the only thing you were going to get done that night, so there was no reason not to take your time, have a chat with the people there and whaddya know, you start making relationships.

And hell, we need to do this tomorrow, say guys, rather than shouting all damn day tomorrow in Org, why dont we all jump on about 8 and group up again? We can do a Strat run too - oh you don't need it? Well i have a buddy who i grouped with the other night who......etc

>>388573526

These kinds of MMO-polish features are the result of a game needing to appeal to too broad of an audience. If you have to constantly sand away at the corners that give your game character in order to appeal to an every wider array of people due to constant player loss you may have other issues to worry about than it taking too long to find a dungeon group.

>remove the necessity of instanced dungeon and have tough maps with good exp/loot that forces players to huddle up or die
>instead of damage sponge boss on raids, have them lowered HP but very aggressive, risky and exciting instead of a skill rotating snoozefest
>incentivize PvP and gvg to keep competitive scene active
>give player personal instanced maps to build home and decorate it with shit you find, gvg and pvp winners can have a piece that is public for the season

There devs, I saved mmo for you and all you had to do is to move away from the wow formula

>>388573240

The communities of old MMOs were good because back then playing online with people from all over the world was a novelty. Now that you can play online with strangers at the click of a button in most multiplayer games the novelty is lost.

>>388573526
That was never fun. If you think it was you never played old MMOs.

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>>388573240
Make Mabinogi 2.
Almost same base game, updated graphics, better engine.
Better dungeons akin to vindictus or just anything better.
Not a god damn vindictus clone though.

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>>388577695
Global multiplayer games have been a thing since the 90s, what are you even talking about

>>388575880
>I hated everything about this game but I played it for a whole year
Why should I respect your opinion or even consider you a remotely intelligent individual?

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>>388573240

Sandbox games will always have better communities and lasting players than themeparks. I mean there's a fucking reason why EVE and fucking SecondLife have managed to have hundreds of thousands of active players per month for more than a decade never really shrinking in size while games like WoW shed hundreds of thousands of players between patches.

You literally cannot create enough content fast enough to ever satisfy an MMO population, it is far better to give them tools to make and find their own fun and incentivize working together or at least playing with each other.

Wildstar is an odd example, the parts of the game that tried their hardest to be Vanilla WoW with 40 man raids, a lack of dungeon / raid finder, attunements, etc... failed miserably, but the game has a housing community that never went anywhere and to this day enjoys the fuck out of their game because all they do is find ways to have fun and socialize because it's the part of the game that is a sandbox.

>>388578125
I didn't hate the difficulty though, I loved the challenge and was thrilled when I had completed content the majority of the playerbase hadn't and might never have completed.

Plus it came out during a drought of mmos so not like I had any other option, similar to right now. I'd play any new mmo for a solid year probably just cause I have nothing else to feel my mmo gap, ff14 is boring and I already completed all its content including savage, wow is just dying and been boring but even then I cleared all of legions day 1 content.

the problem is that almost every element of your average MMO is outdated.

>>388577772
Playing old mmos right now and I quite like forming parties, even when you don't quite get one going.

>>388578719
the problem is that every new mmo tries to cater you fucks

>>388578928
too bad non of them are good at it.

>>388573240
>prebb maplestory CWKPQ
you had to talk fucking constantly like an hour before you could even start to get everyone into the proper groups
still love it

>>388575029
Explain

>>388579320

People claim that data mining ruins all the surprise and mystery of MMOs because people can learn everything about new patches / rewards / encounters / story from data mining sites.

>>388573526
It sounds obvious, but when you've been around the mmorpg block a few times this gets real old real fast.

ffxiv makes you travel to the dungeon itself to unlock it in the dungeon finder, and half the dungeons are required to run for the main story quest.
They've put in a lot of incentives for higher level players to do older dungeons as a result, and in my experience people tend to be more talkative in them than in wow dungeons.

I want 2005 FFXI back.

>>388579320
TL;DR:
>Being able to look up everything about a game means all the mystery is gone and developers have to just make content with the assumption everyone knows exactly what the best build will be (In the case of MP games) and don't bother nearly as much with "Secret" stuff in single-player games

>>388573240
Never had that problem in City of Heroes/Villains

Everyone, even random one-off mission people, played up their character.

>>388577695
you mean back then you could play with rich/middle class educated white people and asians and now you are forced to play with lower class minorities and unemployed socialists.

in 2005, every single person in my lineage 2 guild was either persuing some kind of meaningful education or had just finished and were employed. you sample any guild in 2017 and its going to be filled with 8 year community college retards, welfare niggers, and 'stay at home' single mothers.

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MMOs would be better if I could protect my precious children

>>388576893
What do you play, anon?

>>388580152
>thinking classes means anything
Most of the kiddies stole or beg their parents to play WoW/FF11 and they're as obnoxious as they are now.

Why the fuck do MMORPG's refuse to get creative with some of their playable races?

Let players switch worlds it becomes possible to group up in other ways.
Worked for runescape. Most activities have dedicated worlds where it becomes MUCH easier to find groups because everyone looking for that activity is there.

>>388583346
Why should they?

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>>388583346
Laziness

>SWG
>races are completely different and very alien
>that whole language system

>ToR happen
>everyone is the same humaniod

>>388583468
>SWG
Don't anon, just don't

>>388583468
Is any of that going to change now that Andromeda flopped?

>>388583968
Why would it?
The Bioware that worked on Andromeda isn't the Bioware that worked on TOR

>>388573240
Don't allow foreign players to interact with local players.

>>388573240
>>388573526

This anon is right

mmos were fun when there was no cross-realm and you had to make your own group to go to dungeons. While back then it's took a longer while to reach end-game, you had fun making friends and the like

Now that they allow this, people are constantly whining that the content isn't single-player friendly to their autism despite all the efforts to bend to their will. There's no pleasing these people

>>388584169
Alright then, just wanted to ask.

>>388573526
A few games have done this recently, and, the quality of life stuff is really nice and I hate how without all that it's like an hours long ordeal to find a full party, but god damn, the groups you get together are way better and the retards get weeded out quicker.

>>388573526
Boy I sure do love standing in the middle of nowhere spamming "LFG for dungeon" and getting 0 replies because everyone else is at higher level zones or refuse to help low levels because there's no incentive

>>388584621
Not too long ago I played on a vanilla WoW private server and the people who get together for groups were usually cringe or didn't talk much because "lol private discord channel"

>>388585171
Guilds and similar groups are cancer nowadays.

>>388573240
release Chronicles of Elyria

>>388573240
Guild Wars 2 has a very social multiplayer. I don't experience the feeling of playing with bots in that game. Fuck me I sound like a shill but whatever it's a good game fuck you

>>388573240
We got older, back in the day I could talk to anyone and screw around towns and stuff, now time is gone and all I care about is to min/max the time I spend in the game. Also I play with friends, playing mmos alone is dumb, I'd rather play singleplayer games than trying to make new friends.

>>388582390
>wow

wow doesnt count. wow was popular not because it was casual (1.0 wow was not casual) or easy, or appealed to the lowest common demoniotor or any of those fucking meme terms. Wow was popular because it was a blizzard game that got advertised on battle.net. It was able to pull millions of players because blizzard already had access to millions of players through its various games, and shit just snowballed from there.

wow ruined everything by being popular, but it was popular not because it was a mmo but because it was wow. and for 10 fucking years dipshit retards tried to copy wow not understanding that wow was just the right game at the right time. This is why blizzard wont make wow 2 or any other mmorpg. They know the dirty little secret that wow was a shit game monopolizing an opportunity that will never happen again, and they know they would never be able to replicate its success.

>>388581424

Worlds Adrift, Wildstar for housing, and SecondLife for schmoozing.

>>388583468
>we dont want to spend time or money coding different emotes, dont want to pay more than a few college interns to work on a handful of models, we gotta spend all our money on CELEBRITY VOICE ACTING BECAUSE WE ARE BIG TRIPPLE A VIDEO GAME.

>>388583346
>>388583468

For ToR in particular it was a massive money saver because you can just take your male rig and your female rig and apply it across everything and not have to many any new animations. Games like WoW / GW2 / Wildstar have individual rigs and animation packages for each race-gender combo which gets really damn expensive. It's also why it takes some MMOs eons to release new races, but others can just print new races like crazy.

>>388585776
Vanilla WoW was for casuals though. Not as casual as it is now but at the time it was THE casual MMO compared to FFXI, Ultima Online, or Everquest. The fact that you can solo quests and get to the level cap by solely grinding by yourself was a big deal.

>>388576632
There's a chinese private server running. It seems there's some english players on it.

As for the english private server, it's still in the work, last news are from last week. Seems like they're going to work on the negotiations skills.

>>388585940
I'm aware of the money saving stuff. It just a big fuck you for anyone that want to play something that isn't a human, and ToR's race looks boring as fuck

>>388573240
make it one big open world and make it hard as balls to force people to naturally work together just to survive

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FFXIV is pretty alright, its what i play. Just don't join any of the 4chan FC's bc they're all a bunch of erping faggots who don't actually play the game. I found an active FC through a podcast i listen to where everyone is cool and we actually do group shit on certain nights of the week.

>>388573763

MMOs are not meant to be a mainstream product. Mass appeal has made MMOs what they are today.

>>388573240

I don't really get this comic. I play Guild Wars 2 a lot and I always see people talking with each other on map chat and such. I think it's just mostly that people just chat amongst each other in Guild chat or on Teamspeak or Discord these days. The community is still there, they're just on different platforms.

It also helps not to act like a fucking dickhead too.

>>388586060
>The fact that you can solo quests and get to the level cap by solely grinding by yourself was a big deal.

oh bullshit. the korean mmos were doing that back in 199x. the only difference was if you died while being a solo hero you lost insane amounts of exp. I grinded to soft cap solo in lineage 1 back in 2001, practically all the quests were soloable if you were good enough. But the focus of that game wasnt leveling or quests, it was group pvp at sieges and fighting over bosses. It is perfectly fine to have solo content in a mmo, it just can't be the complete focus.

>>388573240
make an MMO that actually encourages roleplaying and socializing, instead of having bureaucratic matchmaking that forcibly pairs players together

for example, have a tavern where players can put up quests of their own, or recruit party members on some sort of adventurer's board

>>388586343
Yeah man people don't realize that there's so much different methods of communication these days. Back in old school FFXI you had no choice but to talk to people in-game because you couldn't just alt tab the game and instantly talk to people on AIM chatrooms or forums on dial-up. But now with modern PCs, so much social media (Twitter, Discord, Reddit, 4chan, Facebook, Snapchat, etc) and 100mbps broadband internet, there's almost no reason to talk to other random people in-game when you could be chatting with your actual buddies instead.

>>388586590
Balmung server on FFXIV?

>>388573240
What is the most populated free MMO right now
I never played one but i'm interested now

>>388586884
Free MMOs are terrible. The lack of a paywall means every third world player and Chinese bot can infest the servers and the devs don't care if it ruins the community.

>>388586720

That's pretty much the crux of it. Just about every server in GW2 has their own discord these days for WvWvW and shit and depending on the server, there's always people on there chatting with each other about strats and shit. Why use the in game chat function when you can just jump into voice chat with everyone else.

I just hate this image because it's a stereotype of the most irritating person to talk to.

Drop the fucking genki anime girl act and talk like a normal person.

Even dad jokes would be better than what you're doing.

>>388586845
no
just a dnd player

>>388586343
It's pretty specific to wow and ffxiv and that style of mmo's automated dungeon finder. The game encourages you to smash out as many dungeon runs as you can as fast as possible so no-one bothers interacting except to berate each other for slowing everyone down.

It's a shit model. Be glad your mmo doesn't have it.

>>388587304
This. I wouldn't say anything either if this bitch wouldn't shut up. If I were to open my mouth then it would be something negative that would get me banned from the game.

>>388586590
So

instead of a lfg tool

you just walk up to a lfg tool

wow one extra click

that sure was a viable solution

>>388587073
>>388586720
>encouraging shit like discord
Your game is fucking cancer but christ. You're as bad as those fucktards that demand players to join team speak if they want to get anything done.

>>388573526
enjoy it going full toxic like every other game that works like this.

>>388587387
I mean if you already done the same dungeon multiple times what's there to communicate about if nobody is new and nobody knows each other? I mean you can shoot the shit and talk random stuff but with how the games are played with you mashing buttons every second it's hard to type and play at the same time.

>>388587437
What exactly is wrong with voice chat? If you're shy just go "sorry no mic," if they insist join anyway because why not it takes half a second, and if it's a room full of memespouting retards just fucking leave the group because they're probably shitters anyway.

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>>388573240
During Korean Open Beta, Tree of Savior had manual queues only. You had to form parties with people and wait to run dungeons. You met a lot of people this way, and you had time to play duels and chat while waiting.

Oh no but the koreans are lazy and they're far too used to convenience, so they begged and begged until they implemented an auto-queue. Most of the character interaction died that day, and this very image was posted.

I told people: this change is awful, it's going to kill character interaction. People laughed at me, saying I am a hysterical grandpa that hasn't caught on with the times with modern MMO features. Obviously, I turned out to be right, but I had no reason to be happy after all.

As a rule of thumb:

>the more instanced content you have, the worse it is
>if instanced content is central to your game in any way, you're completely off track
>any change that kills character interaction is a step in the wrong direction
>you must never ever favor PvE carebears that call for PvP intrusive features be removed. PvP is the one thing that keeps the game fresh and insteresting, while carebears can AND WILL extinguish all content in your game and move onto the next
>you must not implement systems that makes it nearly impossible for new players to catch up with old ones
>more skill based gameplay is always better
>if a stat only gives benefits to one given character archetype, you need to review how stats work(i.e.STR is useless unless you're melee, INT is useless unless you cast)
>renewal/renovation/big fix patches that drastically change the game are a symptom of desperation, don't let things get to this point
>your netcode needs to be 10/10(Koreans always fail this)
>everyone loves hats, don't skip out on this
>the more RNG you have, the worst things are
and finally
>gacha is cancer, stop doing that shit

>>388587426
whats important is the fact that you have to physically be there

just forcing players to gather at a location to make parties would facilitate socializing, instead of magically finding party members across different dimensions

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>>388587602
>unironically using 'toxic'

>>388587787
Just because people gather at a bus stop doesn't mean they are automatically social. People just fuck off on their phones to text or play games, the MMO equivalent would be people typing in guild chat or going alt tab.

>>388587662
Because new players wouldn't fucking know about the program, or if they're able to. Or it break characters seeing a bunch of female character with neckbeard voice. Or hell, it makes the mmo chat look dead and the game look dead, and I'm not even getting into the /vg/ tier circle jerking which you're going to get left out if you're not one of the first players in that chat. That whole YOU NEED VOICE CHAT for normal shit was cancer in the 00s and cancer now.

>>388587437
Yeah I hate this shit nowadays.
Was playing ragnarok online last month and joined a guild and fucking everything was done through discord.
There was no in game chat going on in the guild because everyone was just doing it on discord.
I don't want to tab out just to see what comments people have left recently, the game has a fucking chat function for a reason, and when there's more than twenty people on and the chat is deader than a cemetery then what is the fucking point.

Using it for voice chat is fine, but fucking christ.

>>388588138
Discord let's you post images and webms. Can't do that in-game without copy pasting a shitty link.

>>388573526
So explain why every game that has taken that approach it has gone worse than matchmaking/crossrealm shit?
Every game that put you in a "find them on your own" just birth a pile of try hard primadonas that lost there shit over anything.

>>388588290
Linking me images from 9gag isn't chatting.

>>388588057
Who the hell doesn't know about discord at this point, it's overtaken Skype, Ventrilo, and Teamspeak as the dominant gaming VOIP

>>388587304
>>388587414
>waaahhhh i cant handle social interaction with another person
>ESPECIALLY IF THEYRE BEING ANNOYING
fuck off you cunt

>>388588653
I can handle social interaction but if you're some literal who that won't shut the fuck up while people are trying to focus playing the game then you get ignored.

Reminds me when healers wouldn't shut the fuck up in WoW and they let people die because they were too busy typing something completely irrelevant nobody cares about.

>>388588407
>every game that has taken that approach
name 5

>>388588407
>So explain why every game that has taken that approach
Because WoW did it, and WoW is the popular MMO that everyone copies.

>>388580060
Sadly all of those characters are gone now......... including mine.

because dungeons arent fucking fun and engaging content, its boring trite shit to say you spent time to other nerds getting gear.

90% of mmorpg's content is fucking pointless chores, why do you think xivfags are obsessed with speedrunning every fucking encounter and dungeon.

>>388586343
while I was playing GW2, the only people talking in mapchat where the edgelord memers

BDO world chat is nothing but /pol/baiters

the only two games I enjoyed recently, ruined because of the chat

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I'm a neet with all the time in the world. What are the best mmos nowadays?

>>388589296
I've been hearing good things about FF XIV.

>>388589296
FFXIV or PSO2

>>388589478
>pso2

>>388588407
More people will buy your shit game if you pander to people who don't even like mmos than if you target your game at the minority that actually want a good mmo.

>>388589296
WoW, OSRS/Ruenscape 3 and FF 14 if you want sub fee
TERA and Blade and Soul if you want F2P with good combat
Neverwinter or PSO 2 if you want free mmo with okay combat
Private Servers if you want to play old mmo
TESO for BtP
Black Desert if want modern mmo open world
Secret World if you want story
LotR if you want to Bard
Star Trek Online if you're a Trekkie

>>388573526
this
make it more like real life where communication is necessary for survival

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I just want an mmo with good combat and none of that hotkey shit
>oh anon, check out this one, it has action combat like you want
>check it out
>it's hotkey garbage
Every fucking time
>ddo comes out
>it's JP only
>has exactly what I want
Why the fuck are devs so deadset on only having the most bare bones type of fucking combat

>>388589478
I went into some FFXIV threads and asked them to sell me the game and the only really good selling point is that its Final fantasy related and has more QoL then WoW. So basically just a final fantasy wow

>>388589296
It's still Dark Age of Camelot.

>>388589558
what's wrong with it

MMOs are a dying genre. When WoW finally gets the plug pulled it'll be the end of an era.

>>388588407
Every game that put me in a find them on my own ended up being the best community. It's always a casual filter, so you're left with people who actually care and invest time, effort, and soul into the game. Not just mindless fucks who spend most of their time alt tabbed or bullshitting while they play a MMO on the side while waiting for their MOBA queue.

>>388589862
This is hard to do given the nature of the internet. You'll get a lot of lag issues.

>>388589862
Funfact: ALL MMOs old and new are based off of MUDs. Guess what type of combat the late era MUDs had?

>>388589870
It's a lot more than that. WoW doesn't let you play every class on one character or doesn't have a involved crafting system.

>>388573240

Public dungeons, have group content scattered throughout the world and leveling process and make it worthwhile, challenging, and/or rewarding, less emphasis on instances.

>>388589862
Dungeons and Dragons Online?

>>388589901
Then why is the MMO industry making more and more money every year?

DFO made 1 billion last year, 8 billion over the past 12 years. The single most profitable games ever are MMOs and mobile games.

>>388573526
>Way to dungeon entrance is guarded by a bunch of elite monsters
>Shitters in the group keep dying multiple times for 30 min
>Party dissolves
This is the reason why these games are no longer popular, no one's got so much free time to waste in this bullshit. I used to waste entire hours trying to make groups for dungeons just to fuck up thanks to some random idiot. Either have a full party with friends only or play something else.

>>388587602
people who say toxic are colossal faggots. the same people who couldnt get a group until LFG

>>388590174
>shitter in a team
>can't kick because there will be no dungeon/raid run
>he just shit all round
>he get the best loot
Damn if you do Damn if you don't

>>388590143
>DFO
What sane westerners want and what takes money off of koreans are two completely different things.

>>388589862
action combat is shit by design in mmos. it's always half assed due to netcode reasons. imagine having a server trying to calculate 100 people on screen trying to do DMC combat, the latency would be insane or the server would desync and lead to bullshit moments.

>Games try to make "non combat characters" viable
>They just make item creation, and gathering into dumb minigames

Fucking retard, the crafting itself isn't the fun part, it's the merchan experience and knowing you're the support for the adventurers, a boon for the economy and a valued member of your local community.

What a crafter character needs isn't "interactive" crafting, what he needs is bing able to create his own shop that's permanently in his little player created town and eventually might become a landmark for players across the years.

>>388590143

Yeah what about the failure rates of most MMOs? There are definitely successful MMOs, but there's a lot of others from small to large that never last very long and it's not exactly uncommon.

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>BAWWWW WHY WON'T THE GAME FORCE PEOPLE TO BE MY FRIEND?

Removing those won't make people want to socialize with you more. If they wanted to socialize, they'd do it regardless of whether or not a dungeon finder exists. You could start by initiating conversations yourself instead of remaining as silent as the rest of them and then going somewhere else to complain.

And before anyone starts bitching at me, this DOES happen in any kind of active guild or just among friends. Guild chat is always full of "anyone wanna help us do x?" type requests. Those players are there, they just aren't playing with you because you're the one not going out and trying to make those connections any more. It's just so easy to blame one's own problems on other people than it is to buck up and fix them.

>>388590174
If they're dying to entrance monsters there's usually no way they'd make it through the whole thing. Dying there is basically saving you time.

>>388586095
Got a link?

>>388589870
>has more QoL then WoW
Nigger what.

QoL that FFXIV has over WoW:
>Teleport to any city anytime (some people would argue this makes the world feel smaller)
>recommended gear button
>native controller support for menial shit like dailies/gathering

meanwhile
>have to transmog each piece individually with consumable items
>need to have items in your inventory (WoW saves the appearance of everything you've ever collected)
>SE's addon stance means nothing like TSM or Auctioneer to manage the marketboard, have to post everything manually
>loading screen to dive underwater
>loading screens between adjacent zones
>have to physically leave a zone just to change instance
>new players have to slog through the entire MSQ unless they buy a story and 60 skip
and the biggest one
>can't pay for sub using gil

>>388573240
A lot of things that help build a good community or at least keep it together tend to be mutually exclusive from things that make the experience more stream-lined. A popular example would be dungeon finder. I made friends and joined some really cool guilds before it was a thing when I went to walk my ass from orgrimmar to wailing caverns but now you get insta queues to dungeons and no one even speaks.

I personally think MMO's are doomed. They're all just skinner boxes at this point and wow has ruined the expectations the community has of mmos.

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>>388590354
>Pick some random tank
>Shit gear, doesn't know how to tank the boss, constantly tries to lead.

>Pick some random healer
>Can't heal for shit, constantly stops healing to attack, won't dodge boss attacks and will blame you for the loss.

>Pick random DPS
>Shit damage, won't support anyone in the party when needed, can't follow the most simple instructions.

And all of them will probably try to steal your loot.

>>388590559
>he needs is bing able to create his own shop that's permanently in his little player created town and eventually might become a landmark
sounds like a lot of resources on the dev side to support such a niche thing. a player created town is its own instance server and being a MMO with the potential of thousands of people playing on one server it would be a massive problem

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>>388587731
I know who you are

>>388589876
excellent gameplay but dead content

progression was until recently extremely reliant on time gated/time limited quests (still is if you REALLY want to get the best gear)

there is an extreme "skill" gap between regular players (who are almost all at level cap or near it) and those who just started or play very casually
the game tends to be quite easy, but very punishing in particular instances (notably the recently released buster quests), so there's often lots of ...variety in the quality of your parties or raids though i'd say this is part of the fun i know a lot of players don't actually enjoy failing quests.

the development team does flavor of the month updates which the playerbase will follow and as a result abandon older content - you'll be hard pressed to find people to play with if the content is irrelevant and unfortunately 90% of the game is already irrelevant (most are easily solo-clearable due to power creep however)

So what MMOs should I play?

>>388591442
none, all video games are terrible. get a new hobby.

>>388589876
oh and the newly released advanced class just straight up trounces any other class combo making 14/17 of the weapon types immediately irrelevant, and more or less all classes irrelevant for endgame (which if you grind moderately, level cap is achievable in a week or two)

>>388590714
Depends on the game, I used to play Aion and it was riddled with those kind of issues, stupid simple dungeons guarded by shitloads of mobs. Same shit with L2 (same developer same mistakes).
Most times after several complains, they ended up adding alternative entrances in the main cities.

Let me be a fucking innkeep you fucks thats all I want from an MMO

>>388591654
own a house on balmung in ffxiv and rent it out to ERPers

Why are there no good information resources for XIV? When SB came out it felt like pulling teeth finding information about stuff like the fox FATE. It feels so awful compared to a game like WoW where the second information is known, there are big sites that post it ASAP.

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>>388573526
Honestly, dungeon matchmaking is such a slippery slope, and is the reason 99% of an MMO's content will devolve into insultingly easy babbymode horseshit.

>I hate standing around for so long trying to get a group together! A group finder billboard system isn't good enough for me!
An instant cross server matchmaking system is added, eliminating a chunk of zone traffic. The dungeon entrance becomes irrelevant.
>Wait, my group is full of complete fucking retards wearing the wrong gear for their classes because I wasn't able to actually QA anyone joining my party!
The dungeons are severely nerfed so anyone can do them, so there's no need for even the basest amount of communication or teamwork.

Etc etc.

>>388592010
Because you're supposed to communicate with other players about the stuff, not fucking wiki it on day one because of dataminers.

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>>388592050
Also because now that dungeons take no effort whatsoever to get into and clear, the overworld becomes increasingly barren, meaning all those group quests or just areas in general that encourage a party get nerfed into oblivion so any solo player can prance through it.

>>388592096
No one fucking talks in FFXIV at all it's actually crazy how few times I seen people talk since playing in 2.0.

>>388590143
Microtransactions make things profitable without making them fun or creating a stable playerbase.

>>388592235
Try playing on a non dead server next time, literally 200 people talking at once in novice network on exodus

>"defined player roles"
>people actually need the shitty trinity of dps/tank/healer
Go the other way, roles are defined by what the player is doing in a party not the class they play. Classes should be loosely defined, multiple stats that the player can decide to level up what, multiple skill trees, make PvP and PvE require different builds

>>388592351
Is Novice Network the only place for communication in this game?

>>388592458
PF Groups
Linkshells
Free Companies
Literally everybody uses Discord these days, get with the fucking times grandpa.

>>388592564
Why use discord when in-game chat exists? I don't think I ever seen an FC recruiting, maybe I do need to change servers.

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Why not more MMO try a FFT combat style? The only series I've seen use it is wakfu/dofus

>>388592823
Discord has voice chat and text chat. Works on computers, phones, tablets, anything with a web browser. You can also easily share images, videos, and links instantly instead of copypasting a long as fuck link from a chatbox in-game.

If you play on Aether or Primal, look in cross server PF and you will see dozens of discord links for statics, parties, and just general chat. Here's one of many for Primal https://discord.gg/DvMRrxu

>>388573240
Ffxi. Was an still is great. It forever you to party and bmake friends to do stuff. That's why modern xi is kinda lame but 75 cap private servers are still where it's at.

WoW clones discourage socialising for some reason, which is why WoW babbies think the genre is dying. They're also the same casuals that try Eve Online, play it looked a single player game then wonder why they get bored in a week and quit

>>388593152
Too bad Tot is an idiot and keeps trying his hardest to ruin Dofus and Wakfu for years. Some of the most fun I had in MMOs is with the 4chan crew in Wakfu but that's all gone now.

>>388590968
>can't pay for sub using gil
But then the gil farmers would win and SE wouldn't make money.

Socialization is overrated.

>>388573763
>Then WoWbabbies and casuals quit because they're babies
And nothing of value was lost

>>388593691
Except for the subs.

>>388593539
Wanted to do content isn't overrated and you need to socialize to do that. What I hate is people in these fucking games who refuse to get better and just want to be shit and hope everything goes right.

>>388573998
Private server if any of the following
>Ffxi
>Ultima
>RO
>runescape
Or just pay Eve

>>388593169
you were forced to talk to people in FFXI otherwise you couldn't progress at all. I still remember spamming "LF FARM PARTY" in the dunes for hours until someone sent a invite then kicked me because I didn't speak Japanese.

>>388593736
Socialization should never be a requirement to do content. Only game skill.

>>388573240
Forcing people to actually NEED to socialize in order to progress is a great go-to for building a better community. Sounds counter-intuitive but it worked wonderfully for FFXI. Only reason they've gone the way they did with adding NPCs for partying is due to the dwindling numbers after all these years.

I don't really miss partying for literal hours just to reach one more level but I'll be damned if it didn't cause people to actually talk and have fun with the other aspects of the game.

>>388590102
dragon's dogma

>>388593960
FFXI combat was so damn slow that talking was part of the gameplay. I mean it's not like WoW where you have to mash the GCD every second. The delay between skills was so wide that you had enough time to type a paragraph.

>>388573240
I honestly don't want to communicate with current day players in mmos. They're all goddamn normies that report you for not enabling their netflix healing.

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>>388594248
>netflix healing

>tfw all your friends stopped playing and you only spend time gathering outfits
http://imgur.com/a/wJHCi

I miss them so much...

>>388594336
Healers in XIV are famous for just standing still and casting cure and watching netflix instead of actually using their repertoire of damage spells to speed up the run and being useful to the group.
Mention that there's other things they can do instead of topping up a tank that never goes below 90% hp is met with passive aggressiveness that has no equal.

>>388594712
If a healer does no damage and spams cure that means it's safe for the tank to turn off their tank stance after establishing aggro to contribute more damage. If healers aren't going to contribute damage then you may as well make them heal more.

>>388573240
Easy anon:
1. Cure your crippling autism and sexual issues over your microdick (you have one, we both know it)
2. Acquire friends (it's not hard, unless your cock is 2 inches (it is) and you suffer from autism (You do), so you're fucked, I suggest 20 gauge aspirin)
3. Play with friends
4. No need to use the chat in game as a social chat because you have actual friends now
This works
>inb4 microdicked redditors and spergs yelling projecting
You only prove me right waste of genetic material.

>>388595518
FUCK YOU!!!! FUCK YOU!!!! DON'T FUCKING CALL ME SMALL COCK!!!! FUUUUUUUUCK!!!! YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Legit question: WoW or FFXIV?

>>388595685
I like FFXIV better but it's not for everyone

>>388575663
We're talking about people who yell, squelch and screech over no social mmo, because they can't hold friendships and need the game to force people to talk with their disgusting retarded sub 90 IQ social skill less selves and feel relevant.

>>388593772
EVE is not free, the 'unlimited trial' affords you less than half the game

oh boy here comes /rog/ with their "yuo should be able to run 20 accounts, 5 bots and grind 0.01% card all by yourself on a dead 30 player server"

>>388593521
Not really, if it comes for blizzard they prefer you to pay with gold.
Gold gives them 20 dollar.
Money gives them 15dollar.

Guess which one they prefer :^)
>>388590968
You forgot
>Only 1 story skip.
>EVER.

>>388595685
>I love me some rng!
WoW
>I love me some stiff gameplay and ERP!
FFXIV

Therre you go.

>>388573240
If someone friendly does open up on the chat in the one MMO I play, I do generally try and give them some quick responses as we do shit. I fell behind on gear anyway so I mostly buff despite being a heavy enemy clearing class, giving me time to quickly shoot out some chat.
It's very rare though.

>>388596105
thing is Blizz is really greedy though and they couldn't care less if gold tokens ruins the economy or raid community. I mean you got raid guilds now selling carries for gold tokens directly. It's straight up RMT but Blizzard doesn't give a shit even though it's against their rules because they make money from it. Same idea as why they allow multibox people to participate in ranked arena and battlegrounds, Blizz gets $15 a month for each multibox account.

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>>388593691
WoW functioned for the first 4 and a half years of its life without dungeon finder. Group matchmaking services/teleport to dungeon was legitimately the worst thing to ever happen to MMOs. It absolutely killed them from a social point of view to the point that they can never recover.

Because group matchmaking is now seen as a modern feature of these games, there can never be a game that does not have them. MMOs are permanently ruined.

>>388596469
>blizzard
>Ever caring for anything but money
Anon...

Also
>Selling carries
>A new thing
Whoa, lemme guess you started in MoP?

>>388573240
There's a time and place for socializing and smack in the middle of a dungeon when everyone's focused and trying to grind shit out as fast as possible is not it.

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>>388596469
>thing is Blizz is really greedy

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>>388576268
People are social but they're fucking cunts. Everyone I talk to is a fucking cunt for no reason.

The RPers are some of the biggest cunts of the lot.

>>388596601
selling carries for gold is old as vanilla WoW but now selling carries for WoW tokens and paypal cash is a hot thing, all the top guilds do it.

>>388595685
They're just different flavors of the same game when it comes down to it. If you like one you'll probably enjoy the other.
FFXIV is stiffer and more story focused however.

>>388596751
Maybe If you stop acting like a little bitch people would treat you better, bitch nigga

>>388596762
>Real money carries are a new thing
Jesus fuck anon, I know your rose tinted glasses are thick but I didn't know they also lowered your IQ two deviations.

I have some friends in high end guilds, they've selling carries for both gold and real money (and buying too) since fucking vanilla, you sperglord. You just notice it more now because back then you didn't even reach cap.

>>388596962
You tryin' to pick a fight, bix nood?

>>388596973
Thing is, selling carries for paypal money was always kept under the wraps because it was a highly bannable offense. But now people don't hide it anymore and Blizzard doesn't give a shit. You got streamers on Twitch blatantly showcasing it and people in-game discussing about it too. In turn it's ruined raiding in WoW because any chuckefuck normie can pay for a carry and get the best loot and then they go on to ruin PuGs.

>>388596973
he said it's a hot thing, not a new thing. reading comprehension you dumb nigger

>>388597143
Every time you post you prove you're further and further down the retard hole, anon. Tell me, you also browse /tg/ right retard-o?

>>388596469
>thing is Blizz is really greedy though

And square isn't?

Legion at least had the decency to include a free 100 boost for new players so they can jump straight to the new content (they still have the option of leveling normally if they want profession boosts/the experience) while square makes you buy not only a job skip but also a MSQ skip just to start at the stormblood content. Sure you can shit on WoW for any number of things but at the end of the day even the most casual player can make enough gold to essentially play for free off tokens. I fucking wish I could do that in FFXIV because if you're not looking to buy a mansion or pot on every pull then you run out of uses for gil pretty fucking quickly at endgame. Plus with YoshiP's "I don't want to force people to play" quote and saying he's okay with people unsubbing and resubbing for big patches paying with gil would make keeping up with the game that much more convenient.

>>388597254
>while square makes you buy
>makes you
who is forcing you to buy level boosts and not just playing normal? the game shits out EXP at you like crazy and if you don't care about the story then you can skip cutscenes, the quests are not long at all thanks to all the teleporting the game has.

>>388597396
for
>>388597307

also gil is never worthless. it's currently $20 for 1 million on balmung

How fun is SB at max level right now? How difficult is Omega Savage?

>>388597670
Omega Savage is Creator Savage tier. Not poopsocking hard but still fun to progress.

Max level combat feels great but there's not a whole lot to do at cap in terms of PVE. Patch 4.1 is next month though

>>388597307
>Legion at least had the decency to include a free 100 boost for new players
if I can recall, that was only if you preorder the expansion or got it at launch.

>>388597750
>not a whole lot to do at cap
That feels disappointing.

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>>388597964
by the time you reach the cap you would have easily invested hundreds of hours into the game unless you level boosted. the game has tons of stuff to do before 70

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>>388598112
>492 hours
casual

>>388573526
No. This has never and will never worked. There's good reason matchmaking/crossrealm signup has become the standard. Because it caused far more problems without it.

You want to fucking make friends then quit expecting people to be super social in a dungeon they've run several dozens of times.

Get off your ass and go find a guild that suits your tastes.

>>388597396
>not just playing normal
Sure nobody is forcing you to buy it but the fact that SE has the gall to charge for that kind of thing is ridiculous. Even if you're skipping cutscenes and liberally teleporting the MSQ is still a slog. Plus given the solo nature of progressing through it DPS players get walled for 20-30 mins at every dungeon quest.

>>388598551
>Plus given the solo nature of progressing through it DPS players get walled for 20-30 mins at every dungeon quest.

literally what the fuck is stopping you from getting a tank or healer to join you for instant queues? all you have to do is ask a mentor or another sprout in novice network. they'd be glad to help you for WT or they are probably on the same quest as you. unless you're so fucking anti-social and play on a dead server too.

>>388597898
Every copy includes a 100 boost. Pre-ordering allowed you to use your boost immediately after the prepatch instead of waiting and also let you create DHs before launch.

>>388587731
>>you must never ever favor PvE carebears that call for PvP intrusive features be removed. PvP is the one thing that keeps the game fresh and insteresting, while carebears can AND WILL extinguish all content in your game and move onto the next

Only one I wont agree with. I actually enjoy pvp but a number of great mmo I played had very shit pvp or none of it, such as FFXI. It managed to keep itself interesting with much of what you've declared and horizontal progression with high difficulty.

>>388598751
wow they really must be desperate for people to come back if they are giving away level boosts for buying the game. can't imagine how dead the starter zones or low level dungeons are right now

>>388578176
>EVE and fucking SecondLife have managed to have hundreds of thousands of active players per month for more than a decade

Someone is actually stupid enough to believe this. wew

>>388598551
>Even if you're skipping cutscenes and liberally teleporting the MSQ is still a slog
It's not really. Being able to teleport across zones within seconds on a SSD already shortens the game length significantly. The solo DPS queues are a legit concern but what >>388598686 said is true. If you make a effort to find people then you will get instant queues unless your server is mateus or you're just really anti-social and expect people to walk up to you first.

>>388598686
Yeah man, let's just dump a 400 part chain quest on new players that they absolutely have to do if they want to unlock core features like flying and dungeons. Even better lets make all 100+ of the post-500 ARR quests all reward absolutely shit EXP. Even if you are skipping cutscenes (which plenty of XIV spergs will get triggered at you for doing) it's not the kind of thing you can just knock out in a weekend, especially if you are leveling a fresh character. If you actually somehow like doing that, great, but the fact that square lets you pay 25 bucks(+another 25 for the 60 boost) to skip that shit should speak for itself.

>>388599798
By the time you finish the post ARR quests, you are already massively over-leveled for Heavensward. Either you haven't played the game or you're speaking about years old experience that long since changed with patches.

>but the fact that square lets you pay 25 bucks(+another 25 for the 60 boost)
it's actually more. you have to pay for the expansions too including sub fee. the cost is high to deter noobies from skipping. I mean think about, if you're a new player would you drop 100+ dollars on a game you never played?

>>388596534
Your view is one of an idiot who refuses to take the first step themselves. I've been in several guilds over the years in wow and made plenty of friends I still talk to.

Socializing is a personal thing. It's not the game's responsibility to match you up with people who want to talk to you. Get off your high horse and put some effort into it.

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>>388600065
>By the time you finish the post ARR quests, you are already massively over-leveled for Heavensward.

No, you aren't. If you complete all of them you're barely past 51 by the end of if. The post-ARR quests literally give you a TENTH of the experience the actual HW MSQs give despite being the same level.

>>388600248
You're forgetting about all the dungeons they make you do including the side dungeon content. A level 50 running a level 50 dungeon is already 1/3rd of your EXP, even more if someone in the group is new so you get EXP bonus, that's not even counting rested EXP 2x bonus and other buffs.

>>388600436
I know it only gets you to a little past 51 because I actually did it myself when I came back for SB having unsubbed at 50 in ARR, and that was with rested exp the entire way. A new player won't have the rested EXP either if they are playing constantly to catch up.

>>388600543
Then you missed out on a ton of side dungeon content then. There's like 15 optional dungeons you unlock that's not part of the main story.

>>388600709
>There's like 15 optional dungeons you unlock that's not part of the main story.

You've completely missed the point. Of course there are fucking faster ways to level, but the goal isn't just to hit 70, it's to hit 70 with the MSQ completed so you actually have dungeons and flying unlocked. The 100+ part quest chain at 50 in ARR is mandatory before unlocking the HW MSQ so you have to do them.

A lot of classic MMO's had that community charm to it, I played EQ1/2 and there was never any dungeon finder crap and people were talkative and friendly for the most part.

but the most community based game i've played was Asheron's Call, played that shit from '99 to when it shut down this year. Patron/Vassal/Allegiance system was great and the pvp server was kill anyone anywhere, loot drops and allegiances had a whole lot to do with the game. I miss the shit, really sad that the community became so small so early on before mmo's were more popular. If had been updated to be a bit more modern and friendly towards newcomers + some marketing i think it would've done well

I mean.. of course there are similar things like darkfall and mortal online that came out but none of those really compare imo

>>388600960
first you were complaining that you don't level enough because you literally skipped content and now you're complaining about you have too much stuff to do? If your goal is to reach endgame as fast as possible then maybe MMOs aren't for you. That's why they made levelboosts for faggots like you.

>WAAAAH I HAVE TO DO QUESTS TO PROGRESS

>>388600960
Like >>388599407 said, the quests are not a slog if you skip cutscenes and teleport everywhere with a SSD. they even sell mount speed increase scrolls for hunt seals so you move faster.

>>388573240
1: See this queue bullshit? Get rid of it. Queues only make sense for unique, temporary events like tournaments and seasonal events. The game should never think you're so goddamn stupid that you need the game to set up a party and move you to content for you. Players should never be allowed to simply AFK because the game is doing work for them. One of the biggest flaws for games like WoW and FF14 is that once you hit end game you log in, push a button and then you're done.

2: No cross server bullshit. No server transfers. Again, excluding temporary events you should be effectively restricted to the community on your local server- MMO's work best when they provide the sense that you're in a small city. The biggest advantage is that it helps to keep the player base honest.

3: Your game doesn't need to push the envelope for system resources. It doesn't need to be completely voice acted. It doesn't need to have cutting edge graphics. A game that looks like Diablo 2 in HD would sell well and lean system requirements would make porting it easier and allow it to function on as many systems as possible.

4: Take more aggressive action with data miners. Someone is always going to want to shake the presents before Christmas but that doesn't mean you can't impose rules on them and how they present the spied content. Give the game a sense of mystery to it.

5: You can do theme park style content but the more of a sandbox you provide the player base, the better.

6: Your game can have a plot, but the major points should be player directed. If you introduce a character people legitimately do not like, for example, they should have the ability to kill them in the plot via in-game actions. You're a dungeon master, not a movie director.

7: There should be reasons beyond aesthetic sensibilities for playing one class over another.

>>388600246
Welcome to /v/tards.
>join /v/ guild
>hey guys wanna do dungeon?
>o-o-okay
>get on voice
>wait
>wait
>wait 10m
>hey dude come onto voice
>AM LE SHYYYYYY!!!! ITS JUST LE DUNGEON!!!!
>5M later
>vanila wow was like sooooomuch social!!
The issue isnt the game not being social or hard.
The issue is that we don't tolerate retards who still use the ingame chat.

>>388573960
>MMO players
>not gay
You're not making any sense.

>>388601107
How about actually reading the thread before making your retarded opinion. I came back to an ARR account at 50 so of course I'm not going to buy the skip when I'd essentially be wasting half of it.

My point was and still is that the MSQ completely shits over the new player experience. Leveling 1-60 by itself isn't a big deal but the fact that you have a massive 100 part mandatory quest chain at 50 that gives shit EXP certainly doesn't help.

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Guild Wars 2 has a great community, come join us fur some real fun~

>>388601304
(cont)
8: Get used to the idea that your game will probably aim to have a few hundred thousand concurrent subscriptions and not millions. World of Warcraft was lightning in a bottle, and trying to steal that lightning is no easier than making it strike twice.

9: Your game needs contingencies in advance to consider player tastes for things like legacy servers or servers that allow the player base to go back to the beginning and play through the game's content like a 'best of' CD.

10: Engage with the community. You don't need GM's hosting events but you should be hosting things like a, 'make a dungeon' contest that the community votes on, or things like 'make an armor set' and 'make a weapon' style contests.

11: Crafting needs to be relevant. The more player-driven the game's economy is, the better. Endlessly plowing through repeatable dungeons and raids should not be the sole, exclusive best way to get the best gear.

12: The game needs the ability to say, 'OK, you're done. See you next week!' Many games have tried some form of this- 1.0 FF14 for example- and failed miserably. I think World of Warcraft's old raid lockout system worked best, while the current mythic+ system stands for why it should be done in the first place. Do not introduce systems that encourage poop socking.

13: End game needs to be broad and diverse. If all you can offer is raiding and a shitty version of an old PVP zone then people wont play your game.

14: Challenge needs to be fun. Classic era World of Warcraft had the best raiding because you could measure a guild by how far it got. Shitters might do Molten Core and maybe the first half of BWL. Warm body guilds with talent would do early Naxx and late AQ40. Only the best guilds could do Naxx 40's late portion. On the other end, having encounters that demand your entire raid perform every mechanic perfectly or else it'll force a wipe and start you over again are not fun.

>>388573240
Forcing people to gather in front of dungeon entrances (and make it slightly hard to get there, like fighting through Elite Mobs and shit) and entirely removing Partyfinder/Dungeonfinders. Party and Dungeonfinders should never be added unless a game is dying while making it impossible to actually find regular groups.

FFXIV is the best example of a soulless community.

>>388594635
help me bring /ammg/ back to life pls

>>388602252
I like playing XIV but I hate for anti-social the community is.

>>388602419
It's more of a problem that the content is braindead and playerskill is entirely irrelevant for 90% of it, there's also no real learning curve in this game.

>>388602558
I felt like XIV was much harder than WoW at least.

I've been thinking a lot about MMOs lately. Mainly FFXI.

I wish there was a more updated version of FFXI. Like a brand new game, with the same feeling as it. Trying to think about what made FFXI bad and what made it unique and fun... I like skill chains, I like finding parties manually, and I like the combat system. But the game is super slow, and it doesn't do a good job of explaining very basic things.

If I were to design an MMO that would be FFXI-like, but more modernized, how would I go about it?

Been thinking of stuff like that.

>>388573240
Nothing, you don't have to be best fucking chums in every instance.

>>388573526
Honestly I don't miss this shit. You had to play nice because it took so long to replace people. Now if someone is an annoying rper or something you just votekick them and replace them instantly.

>>388573240
I think this may help:
>Keep loot sets to a minimum
>Make stats very vague so people can't just min max everything
>Emphasise making groups in the lore and in the gameplay so people don't just get wiped
>Making forming parties easy. Save parties to slots too so you can quickly see who's available out of said group at that time.
>Include some lore that requires a group of people to figure out like a puzzle. Riddles n shit

>>388603061
I just want to say I'm sure you're a handsome good well liked person and your family values you very much. But I fucking hate you ideas.

>>388601304
>>388602098
Holy shit this reeks of the idealistic kind of "I want everything" garbage someone who has no idea how MMOs work would spout. You're like that lottery winner who wanted to make an MMO but instead of actually being a dev he just wanted to be the "ideas guy".

You say you want to get rid of queues but at the same time the game has to be okay with only a hundred thousand players like new players who hop on after the launch wave are going to enjoy waiting around for hours trying to make groups for low level content. You say that endgame should be more diverse than raiding and PvP but don't offer a single example otherwise. You want to discourage shitsocking but at the same time include content for "the best guilds". Where the fuck do you draw the line between a good guild and poopsockers because the people who cleared naxx40 on tier WERE poopsockers. You want players to be able to dictate the game's plot for fuck's sake.

If your suggestions are actually representative of the MMO community at large it would explain a lot at why MMOs are dying. It's because it would be impossible to please a player like you.

>>388603061

So... You mean TSW?

>>388603136
Anon. We are in a state now that its more likely to see people working together on a Call of Duty map to unlock its hidden secrets than they would doing just basic MMO content.

Feel free to disregard me though. The only game I remotely like thats even close to an MMO is Monster Hunter.
(That game is always good online)

Infact I feel this could all be solved if Capcom bloody localised the damn MH MMO and we all just played that.

>>388587602
not true

on release GW2 was the best MMO experience i've ever had

>>388603061
>Make stats very vague so people can't just min max everything

This is never going to work. Shitsockers are just going to run sims or actual parses to empirically work everything out and all that's going to do is create a split in your community between the people who actually bother to look up how stats work and those who don't. Then you're left with a balancing catch 22 because you either balance for the shitters and let the good players steamroll through all your content or balance around the players that did the math and leave the shitters in the dust.

>>388603371
>>388603318
I kind of misworded myself. Look the point is like in old RPGs stats only matter so much as to how they are used with skills.
What I love about Monster Hunter is that even with rubbish gear you can achieve quite a lot still. Setting traps, buffing and debuffing with items, achieving other objectives not related to fighting. Working together as a team is whats the most important thing.
I have even seen high level players get wiped in a boss encounter because they aren't playing smartly.

I feel MMOs have become way too reliant on specific builds and quick bar spamming.
That's boring. It really needs an injection of skill or on the flip-side, more tactical inactive elements.
I have seen neat ideas from other genres. Like Natural Selection 2 for example.
In NS2 a player can take command of deployment and unit spawning. Imagine if, you were playing an MMO and you had a friend who's just started and had low level gear.

You could get that guy to play an inactive support role that you all mutually benefit from. He could be your eye in the sky, your recon, or your healer.

>>388587731
This is my fear with Lost Ark Online but they seem to be mitigating that with fuck loads of non-dungeon content (mini-games, crafting talent trees, exploration et al)

>>388603318
Shit like solving puzzles with strangers sounds awful. I love monhun, killing monsters with strangers is fine.

>>388605181
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAmn4x2r-O8

This game is attempting such demand for cooperation. So, who knows.

>>388605181
if it's team based, one guy usually pull a solver and direct people around. if not, everybody pull up a solver and do their thing. here's one people use for Dungeons&Dragons Online

http://solver.cubicleninja.com

>>388595893
The free trial is pretty much the only ships worth flying. Smaller is better in Eve.

Don't get caught in the trap of spending years to train perfectly skilled battleship/carrier/T3 toons just to find out that flying T1 frigs in a deathball is more fun.

>>388594195
It was slow in low lvls yea, by max lvl you were busy as fuck unless you were a shit DD job; at which point no-one'll invite you.

gib ragnarok 1.2
>>388605181
>he didn't spend every day doing party quests with randoms in maplestory
casul

>>388587787
FFXIV raids used to be like that.

All that happened was that where the main raid was at the time would be the most populated zone, but it didn't really affect player interactivity or socialization.

Or "hey guys teleport to the hinterlands/northern thanalan/fallgourd/wineport from your house so we can raid"

>>388607869
>riding airships and watching as everyone cheers me on on killing the pirate balrog crew while they're fucking dead
its the little things like waiting for airships
or boats
or riding boats
or fucking fishing on boats while riding on them after waiting for a while (jesus christ mabinogi)

if you went inside in the airship, you were a QUEER and a WUSS

Convince me to play FFXIV.

>>388608751
No

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In reality the only saving grace to MMOs are the little things that should obviously be under some Quality of Life, but aren't.

In every single case of this, it's always fixed by the community getting together and making something to get around that lacking QoL somehow. Any timewaster, stopper, feature that is missing bring nothing but joy to the masochists (everyone who steps their feet into the puddle of MMORPGs) of this genre.

The more disgustingly unplayable game mechanic wise your MMO is, the better the community. The better the community, the better the game.
it shouldn't be like this, but it is and never will change

>>388608624
Same shit happened in FF11. Crossing on the ferry was a death sentence under Lv.60 (as in, you couldn't solo everything if you weren't Lv.60). That feel where all the low level dudes are hiding from the Kraken or Pirates and some dick aggros them on purpose to kill everybody and I walk out of the cabin and Provoke them and solo them. Good times. Why I want Lost Ark Online, shit to attack.