Modern Games that use Lives

>>387723443
>games should be easy

Fuck off with that shit.

It's pretty good in this game

It's meant to recreate the feel of the older Sonic games, but you're right
It's not like anyone actually ran out of lives in Sonic Mania, and it's a good thing they're getting rid of them in Mario Odyssey

>beaten this game 5 times already
>still not bored of it

taxman laced this shit with digital cocaine

>>387723564
nice strawman
>>387723570
how so?

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>>387723443
>>387723596
Lives are better than the alternative, so I'll never understand you indie faggots and your hatred of lives

>Dude lives and continues are an outdated concept
>Having 1 life, relying on luck and permadeath are way better!

>>387723718
>how so?
Keeps me invested because I don't want a game over, also finding one or getting 100 rings is really satisfying

>>387723564
lives don't make the game harder, they just make you redo shit you already did for no reason

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>>387723443
because your fav millenial youtuber says so?

GO FUCK HIM POR FAVOR

>>387724218
>they just make you redo shit you already did for no reason
In sonic doing stages over and over again is kinda the point

>>387723824
>comparing a roguelike to full length platformers
Solid bait, got me to reply

>>387724218
>for no reason

It's not for no reason - it's because you fucking suck and didn't learn your lesson the first few times.

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>>387724349
Roguelikes fucking suck, millennial cuckold

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>>387723443
This.
Death=erase save.

>>387724482
Pretty cool opinion, but what does it have to do with the thread?

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>>387724218
It makes the game harder by encouraging you to master the earlier stages to save up lives for later in the game. It also makes the beating the game more satisfying in the end, because there's the risk of losing your progress.

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>>387724482
Roguelikes are way older than your BING BING WAHOO games, you fucking idiot.

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The only people I've seen complain about lives in Mania are those who suck at the game. I typically agree with the notion that the implementation of lives are usually meaningless since most games just give out lives like candy or alternatively give no real punishment for losing all of your lives other than having to go through a couple menus to start a level over again. Mania however does give some purpose to the life system, since losing all of them kicks you back to the beginning of a zone, which is apparently an issue for some people.

Interestingly enough, Sonic Forces lacks a life system, so I'm surprised Sega didn't mandate that the same should apply to Mania for consistency purposes.

>>387724774
you don't need lives to do that. if the game is fun players will play through the levels again on their own time to master it.

have any of you faggots played shovel knight? you don't need lives to punish players for failure.

>>387725201
Shovel knight uses souls mechanics as a live replacement, somthing you can't do with sonic

The lives don't really matter when you have a save file. It's the 'no save' mode where you need your lives. All in all, 'no save' mode is the hard mode of the game.

>>387723443
>Lives should've gone the way of the dodo. Don't bother defending this. You'll only make a fool out of yourself.

Go back to Sonic Retro Laura

>>387725431
>It's the 'no save' mode where you need your lives. All in all, 'no save' mode is the hard mode of the game.
no you don't. just have the player go back to the last checkpoint or the beginning of the act.

Funny. I've made threads in the past discussing whether or not lives are a useless concept and /v/ almost universally said they were. now that sonic mania is out suddenly lives are okay now. never change /v/. never change.

>>387724482
I never said they didn't you fucking tard
I'm saying comparing a roguelike to a platformer is beyond stupid

>>387725201

There's hardly anything punishing in shovel knight

>>387725743

No you didn't

>>387725786
So different genres, thus lives are perfectly okay in platformers.

You can keep your single life permadeath crap in your awful games.

>>387724218
It's to see if you have the skill to do it in one shot. Sure you can do sections of a game without dying. The skill is defeating it all in a string.

>>387726052
This guy gets it.

>>387726023
Name a modern platformer where lives were actually important

>>387724334
If you don't replay a classic Sonic after beating it you're a casual. Also Mania's life system is ripped straight from 3&K. This no lives in anything meme needs to end.

>>387725201
Shovel Knight was easy as fuck though and partially because of that. What on earth was the punishment for dying? Losing some gems that didn't even really matter that were easy to get back anyway?

I'll never understand why that game was so highly rated, it is competent, but that's all it is. I can't say much good about it other than it's a solid platformer if a bit repetitive and easy.

If you are trying to get through the game without getting a game-over, the lives are useful. It's a self imposed challenge on the players part.

>>387723443
I don't mind lives, it's continues that are the problem. If you run out of lives you should have to start the whole thing over again.

The only reason lives count in Sonic Mania is because it does have some remote semblance of challenge, at least to inexperienced players, and the stages are long enough that a game over does feel like a setback, because if you die to the boss of Act 2, you're starting from Act 1.

In easy games where losing a life vs. getting a game over just doesn't fucking matter at all, like Mario, I agree that they should just do away with the lives. It doesn't add anything because nothing is going to happen when you run out, and it means every time I find an extra life in the stage I'm going to be more disappointed than if I had found nothing.

Lives/continues only make sense in an arcade.

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If all Sonic games featured a ranking system like Adventure 2 or Unleashed, then you wouldn't need a life system. Dying in a level would only result in a negative impact on your final score, causing you to get a lower rank than that achievable with a perfect run.

I feel like this would give people more of an intensive to replay levels and gain a sense of satisfaction once they've been mastered, similar to time trials, and would also keep shitters who can't play games without everything handed to them on a silver platter from complaining about the game being "too hard" or "unforgiving", since the ranks themselves wouldn't matter much outside of higher ranks unlocking extras, or something.

>>387726497
That' wouldn't be a bad way to do it. I like lives though for the bit of tension they provide. It's a nice feeling reaching the final stage with only a few lives remaining and just barely defeating the final boss.

>>387724218
Just because you did it before doesn't mean you were any good at it. If you get a game over at the end of the last act in a Sonic game and complain about being sent back to the very beginning of the first act because you felt you've already proven you can do it and are just being forced through tedium, you're a fucking liar. The only reason you got a game over at the end of the act was because you died MULTIPLE times throughout the zone. So do it again and be less shit at it.

Even if all of your deaths were at the same location in the second act, you're being forced to play through act 1 again because you clearly lack the fundamental skills, and the game is giving you a chance to practice those so you don't die to that part in act 2. Everything in the game relies on the same techniques from the player, if you die, you need to get better at the game. It can't guarantee, if it puts you right before where you kept dying, that you'll get through it because you improved as a player on a consistent level.

In games that progress in a purely linear fashion, ie, Crash Bandicoot, 2D Sonic, and so on, lives exist to punish the player for death. Without lives, you would have no reason to worry or play with any skill, because you could just throw yourself at a hard section until you got through it. The inclusion of lives in these games exists to incentivize actually trying instead of getting your hand held constantly, and in the case of Crash and Sonic Mania, two major games that released recently with lives, the penalty for game overing is incredibly small compared to what it once was.
In a game like Super Mario Odyssey, which lacks linear progression and is designed around exploration, lives are pointless because there's almost no progress to lose anyway. It's just open levels that you can go around freely. If you removed the lives from Super Mario Galaxy, or 3D World, you would feel the impact immensely, but removing them from Super Mario 64 or Sunshine wouldn't have nearly the same difference, because either way you just re-enter the open levels whether you die once or game over; the penalty of death is "You have to re-explore that level" whether it's a game over or not.
Lives have a place. They're not necessary in all games anymore, but the removal of them altogether just removes the penalty of death.

>>387726497
>Getting pointless S or A ranks

kys

Unlocking Master System/Game Gear games in Sonic Adventure DX was awesome, but SA2, getting absolutely nothing for emblems, fucking sucked.

>>387724218
It's you proving that your victory the first time wasn't a fluke.

I mean, you should coast on through because it isn't hard, right?

>>387727163
Did you even finishing reading my post before replying? I said gaining higher ranks could unlock extras.

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>>387723443
>tfw Cuphead has no live system

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Why is Yahtzee making /v/ threads?

>>387727301
Right right okay, but Sonic Mania has plenty of unlockables as is

>>387727397
He was talking about a conceptual Sonic game that did this, not changing Mania to be this way.

>>387727397
Wow, you're an idiot.

>>387723443
I'm more upset that it kept the timer.

>>387725085
LOL

>>387727576
They really should have kicked the time over limit to fifteen minutes, since most levels are significantly larger than those in previous games.

Or just take it out. I don't see what purpose it serves anyway.

>>387727713
great argument. you sure showed me.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

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>>387723443
>You'll only make a fool out of yourself.
It's a little late for that, anon.

>>387727787
does the game have leaderboards?

Live encourage people to get better. Learn the levels. Find the extras. Master the game.

Everyone who started out shit at the game but kept playing is better by now. Would never have happened absent a limited life count.

>>387727787
The purpose is to make sure you don't take too long.

Would Dark Souls be a better game if it used lives?

>>387727884
It does for time trial mode, but most people aren't going to end up anywhere near the time over limit in that mode anyway.

Lives make a game too easy. The devs can't make levels full of challenging content because they know people will get frustrated at getting game overs, so they purposely dial back the difficulty. I had over 20 extra lives when I beat Mania the first time, it's ridiculous.

>>387727787
>They really should have kicked the time over limit to fifteen minutes, since most levels are significantly larger than those in previous games.

I disagree. Responding to the larger levels by increasing the time limit would be a huge mistake. Time Over was absolutely never a danger in old Sonic games, for the first time ever, you actually need to be conscious of the timer. It isn't there to be something you can ignore, it's there to keep you moving. Increasing it to 15 would just make it so you can ignore it like you always have.

post yfw lives fags got BTFO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mq97KuraFE

>>387727982
I get that that's the incentive, but why? What does it matter if someone take a super long time to complete a level? It just comes across as a needless punishment to me.

>>387728190
Ever think either:
1)You're way better than the casual person who plays Sonic
or
2)Sonic Mania was designed for babies

>>387728190
>I had over 20 extra lives when I beat Mania the first time, it's ridiculous.

Get off your high horse you fucking scrub. I'm sitting on 40 lives on my first playthrough.

Seriously, kill yourself my man. You're no better than the people crying about the game being too hard. Git Gud.

>>387728326
>2)Sonic Mania was designed for babies
oh really? i thought it was designed for the old fans who played the genesis games whose levels make up 2/3 of the fucking game?

>>387728326

Designed for babies yet adults are crying about the game being too hard.

http://forums.sonicretro.org/index.php?showtopic=37057

>>387728326
If Sonic is supposed to be for children then take out lives because those children will get mad and whiny whenever they get a game over. If Sonic is supposed to have some difficulty then get rid of lives because they hold back how difficult a game can be. There is zero justification for keeping them, and they just make the game worse.

>>387728316
Because, although Sonic is not ALL ABOUT going fast at all times, going quickly is still part of the game. If the idea is that speed is a reward for good players, that being skilled means you get to go fast, then that means that going too slow is playing poorly.

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>>387728364
>only 40 lives

>>387723824
>wut is rayman legends?

>>387728571
>Take out lives to make it easier
>Also take out lives to make it harder
Pretending like you know how the level designers think and that they went out of their way to avoid people getting game overs is pretty retarded, anon. Lives don't "limit" the difficulty just because you finished with a lot of lives. All that means is you finished with a lot of lives. This is some low quality bait.

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>>387723443
>game uses a system to determine whether a player has mastered the skills necessary for basic play
>if the player is determined to have fallen short (game over), the game sets them back a bit further to let them practice more

>>387723443
lots of games use lives

sonic mania is a rare example of lives actually mattering

>>387728730

Show us your save screen if you're so great

>>387723443
you haven't listed the pros and cons
you haven't explain why you feel this way
you haven't given examples of better systems
you haven't given an argument to refute

1/10

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>>387728730
>Didn't finish with at least 100 lives

>>387728909

It's also exposed how many people come from the days of auto saves.

>>387728928
you haven't played rayman legends
kys

>>387728867
I love how you're incapable of understanding what words mean, which is further highlighted by conflating "frustrating for children" with "hard"

>>387729071
not an argument

>>387729071
I'm not the one putting forward the argument

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>>387729003
>Not having 200 lives

If dunkey said in his video that lives were a flaw, you'd all be riding his dick.

>>387724218
Neo-/v/ everybody

>>387729120
I like how because I misinterpreted one part of what you said, you ignored the rest of my post as if one mistake in what I thought you said invalidates that just because you finished with a lot of lives doesn't make a game easy.

>>387729175
who the fuck is donkey

>>387728571
>If Sonic is supposed to be for children then take out lives because those children will get mad and whiny whenever they get a game over

I remember when developers went out of their way to piss me off when I was a lad.

>>387728576
I guess I wouldn't see the concept of a time limit so pointless is the punishment wasn't so tame. All that happens when you get a time over is that you lose a life, you're sent back to your last checkpoint, and the timer is reset to 0.

Maybe if getting a time over resulted in you getting kicked back to the beginning the level, then I could see the value in its inclusion, but as of now its still comes across as being not much of a threat, even in Mania, because of said punishment.

http://archiveofourown.org/works/11798901

http://archiveofourown.org/works/11778270

>>387729413
I agree that it should put you back to the start of the Act, but it isn't pointless just because the punishment isn't severe. You take too long, you lose a life. It doesn't impede you moving forward because you're probably at a checkpoint late in the stage now with the timer at 0, but you still lost that life.

>>387724218
>replaying games because I choose to
>FUN

>replaying games because they're challenging
>FUCKING CANCER SHITTY GAME

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>>387723443
>>387724218
Lives force you to repeat sections to the point of mastery, thus working as a tool to teach you how to play the game naturally as well as improving player satisfaction through skill progression. If you look at many of the most highly praised games, they typically value the encouragement of skill progression in their design philosophy, that's why the souls games have exploded in popularity. Sonic without lives would just have babbies like you throwing themselves at levels over and over until they completed them by fluke.

>>387724218
it forces players to improve how they play so that they have more lives available for the later, more difficult levels by mastering the early levels in order

otherwise you get fucking bamham shit that 4 year olds can steam roll through, that shit isn't fun at all

>>387730051
>>387730107
Super Meat Boy says hi.

>>387730207
Wow, it's almost as if different games that have different level design tenants have different requirements. Super Meat Boy's lack of lives is reflected in its level design, emphasizing memorization, quick thinking, and repeated attempts in burst of 5-10 second levels.
And it's also worth pointing out that thanks to Meat Boy not having lives, it is possible to just get through shit by throwing yourself at it repeatedly until you hit a fluke in timing.

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>>387724218
>for no reason
>getting better at the game's mechanics by forcing you to git gud
>take a different path to discover a power-up or two that'll make the stage and/or boss easier
>no reason
It makes it so you can't brute force your way through an encounter by giving you a consequence for fucking up too much. If you're having a hard time, go through the stage again and get that shield you lost because you're a fucking idiot by jumping into a bed of spikes. Find a different path that'll give you a different shield that will give you an leg up on the boss. Find that last big ring so you can get your seventh chaos emerald so you can go super and make the boss and future stages a cakewalk. Hell, it gives you time to master the mechanics so the whole game becomes easier due to you understanding what the game wants from you. Not only that, but it gives you time to cool off if you're just throwing lives at something.

Don't expect the game to suck your dick for you because you suck at it.

>>387724218
>they just make you redo shit you already did for no reason

They make you learn how to play the fucking game. Just like when you repeat the year for not getting passing grades, you dropout retard.

>MFW they even found a way to include Sonic R in the nostalgia

I wish there was an option to replace special stage music with ill-fitting soul music

>>387723596
>It's not like anyone actually ran out of lives in Sonic Mania, and it's a good thing they're getting rid of them in Mario Odyssey

I ended up running out on the final boss my first run, just because I thought you were supposed to attack the egg robos instead of dodge them until you shifted back.

>Lose a life in Sonic
>Lose 30 seconds-2:00 minutes of progress
>Somehow lose all lives in Sonic
>Lose maybe 5 minutes of progress
I understand the desire to not have them in modern 50+ hour experiences where the wrong death can reset hours of progress. But hour long platformers need to enforce punishment somehow.

>>387730207
Meat Boy doesn't force you to get good at it though, because the respawns are so quick and the stages are so short, you never feel compelled to actually improve because you know you'll never really be punished. You die a ton but the game isn't actually very difficult.

>>387731130
>You die a ton but the game isn't actually very difficult.
>being this retarded

>>387728190
>>387728364
>>387728730
>>387729003
>>387729168
Lives are a retarded outdated concept tailored to keep arcade machines sucking your quarters anyway. It has ZERO reason to be in a modern game.

>>387724218
Thats the fucking point autismo

>>387731214
You are never stopped for more than a minute or two. It's incredibly easy to progress by just throwing yourself at shit until it somehow works out and clearing it without actually overcoming the challenge. It doesn't require to to exhibit any sort of consistency in play. It isn't difficult to eventually get it right out of 50 attempts over the span of two minutes. You usually don't die because something was difficult, you die trying to see if something will work, then you find out it didn't and just try something else.

>>387731285
How would you enforce punishment for when the player makes a mistake? Or would you rather all games be skinnerboxes?

>>387731631
by sending them back to the last checkpoint?

>>387731430
would rayman legends be a better game if it had lives?

>>387731690
>Do this in an open ended game like Sonic
>People can now abuse checkpoint respawns to get back to a path they missed indefinitely
Bravo

>>387732126
what's wrong with that?

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>>387723443
Worse offender

>>387732373
Not all games are meant to be sandboxes where you can do whatever you want with no worry of avoiding punishment.

faggots complaining like that in sonic mania and crash threads only makes my dick harder. improve your skills or go play heavy rain

If you take lives out from Sonic, it also makes saving 100 rings pointless. There would be less incentive to avoid taking hits.

>>387732756
Make rings increase your time limit in Special Stages

>>387732756
then get rid of rings too. have unlimited tries but have the player die in one hit without a shield.

>>387733051
Get Edmund Mcmillen's cock out of your mouth. Things that work for Super Meat Boy don't work for all platformers

>>387733224
lol Super Meat Boy. More like Super Buttery Movement Boy

>>387733224
why not?
rayman legends also handles not having lives just fine.

>>387733021
Then it makes special stages less hectic, and more grindy. You're meant to feel the pressure from the time limit, and weigh getting rings to increase the time but putting more distance between yourself and the UFO with getting more spheres to increase your speed but potentially running out of time.

>>387733429
>please be patient. i have autism.

>>387733443
Because mechanics are only as good as the context of all other mechanics that interact with them. The Sonic Formula is built and balanced around the existence of lives. You can't just remove them without fundamentally rebuilding the game to be something else.

>>387733917
this
If you get rid of lives, then rings serve no real purpose. What do you do then? Get rid of rings and replace them with more shields? Then you've basically turned Sonic into a Mario clone where the mushrooms are replaced with shields.

>>387733917
you've just proved to me that sonic is flawed by design. congratulations.

>>387734143
wow it's almost like rings are a stupid mechanic and mario is a better designed game.

>>387723824
Roguelikes are a genre not just indie devs thinking lives in games are stupid, retard

>>387734217
Only according to your subjective shit tastes. People bought and praised Mania for the Sonic Formula, not for indie platformer circle jerking.

>>387726023
>Roguelikes are built entirely around having one life and starting over when you die
>Therefore why don't platformers, which aren't built around that, also give you only one life?

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>>387723443
Lives are good for arcade-style games. Short platformers benefit from lives in my opinion. Playing this type of game without lives is like playing through an arcade game with infinite credits, you'll finish quickly via brute force and not really experience the whole game as it was intended, since you could easily just fling yourself at a difficult section over and over without learning anything instead of figuring out the strategy behind that difficult section.

>>387734574
wouldn't beating the game be proof that you learned how the game works the way the designers intended it?

>>387734321
Or that Sonic is simply not a Mario clone but a different concept altogether. If it's not for you, then it's not for you, but that doesn't mean that all other games need to cater to your needs or are shit because they don't.

Guys I don't think I can go back to a time before the drop dash

>>387734814
there's no challenge in sonic games. as long as you have at least one ring, you can fuck up infinitely.

>>387735010
I barely used it first time through, but starting to use it more now and it feels great.

>>387734729
There's a difference between beating a game because you brute-forced your way through a challenging part and didn't learn anything in the process, and beating it because you actually took the time to process what you're doing wrong, learn from your mistakes, and apply those learnings to later parts of the game where they apply.
For instance, I can go back to any Sonic game and be able to recognize patters I learned in previous playthroughs and actually beat a stage in a reasonable amount of time. I can't say the same for a game like Super Meat Boy where I primarily just brute forced my way through the game. Sure I got a bit better as I progressed, but there was really no need to stop and think because ultimately there was very little punishment for failure.

Ever noticed that Sonic games fail at level design and game mechanics? Controlled environments? What's that?

>>387735532
(You)

>implying the game is difficult enough that you ever get a game over.
With Mania and N.Sane trilogy I'm 100% sure the underage faggots on this board cannot play a difficult game.

>>387735663
I wasn't implying that at all. The point is you don't need lives to make a challenging game.

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>>387735532
wow man, great argument

>>387735845
So if the game is easy enough that any decent player would never get a game over what is the problem?

>>387735845
You don't need lives, but they have their place. They work well in Sonic and other platformers.

>>387735845
There's no such thing as a mechanic a game needs

>>387736151
which other platformers?

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>>387734729
Not necessarily. Like let's use Touhou as an example since I like posting Touhou images. If you took the average Touhou game and gave it infinite lives without changing anything else about the game, you would beat the game after twenty minutes and only see the patterns once. You'd probably die to most of them at least once (unless you were a veteran to the genre) but you'd still win by virtue of having infinite lives. You wouldn't master any of the hard ones and the harder stages wouldn't really stand out compared to the early ones other than you getting hit a lot more often, which wouldn't matter to you.
Now there are spinoff Touhou games where the entire design philosophy is different, games like Shoot the Bullet and Impossible Spell Card where you're meant to tackle a gallery of more-difficult-than-usual attacks using a gameplay gimmick. You take the cards one at a time and clear them individually selecting them from a list, and those games are fun, but they aren't designed with arcade design philosophy at all, which is why not having lives works for them. You couldn't just shove that kind of system into a mainline Touhou game or you end up with an unbalanced shitheap like Legacy of the Lunatic Kingdom (which had a game mode that essentially gave you one life but infinite continues and many checkpoints; you could brute force the game on this game mode and clear it more easily than any other Touhou game but the regular gameplay suffered greatly because the bullet patterns were balanced around the other game mode and it ends up throwing a ton of cheap shit at you that basically requires memorization to clear in the regular game).
Whether a game benefits from lives or not depends on what type of game it is, and Sonic is a linear, arcade-style platformer so I feel it uses them well.

>>387736341
Why not just create a self-imposed challenge or have achievements? What's stopping me from playing the game again in an attempt to do better?

>>387736307
Contra and other arcade-style platformers that reward good strategy over just retrying a challenge over and over again.

>>387736307
Joe & Mac
Donkey Kong Country
Super Mario Bros. 1

>>387736640
explain

>>387735532
Call Yasuhara, he's crying

>This entire thread
When can we start acknowledging Anti-livesfags as one of the most cancerous vidya fanbases?

>>387737107
when you actually make an argument

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There is exactly one (1) game which justifies lives

>>387736519
Self-imposed challenges are fine, and Touhou players are quite fond of that, with things like "no bombs," "no deaths," and "no vertical" being common. And other than ones involving "no deaths" the lives system is an integral part of the ones people do. Beating the game without bombs require you capture almost every spell card in the game, since you have a limited amount of lives and can't just push through a hard attack by bombing through it. If you didn't have lives, it wouldn't mean much to never bomb, and you'd have to come up with an entirely different set of challenges to get any satisfaction from them. (Impossible Spell Card does have some, since it's possible to clear any and all patterns in the game without using the "cheat" items and that entices a ton of players. It also has in-game achievements but I don't think they add much).
Your method of increasing replayability with self-imposed challenges and achievements CAN work, but it relies on a certain type of game.
Also, I do want to concede that there are definitely games that don't really benefit from lives at all. New Super Mario Bros. is a big example in my opinion. You either get HUNDREDS of lives by the end, or (if you're a little kid) you get a game over but receive ZERO punishment or setback from it, since you start at the same level you left off as if you died regularly. NSMB clearly only has lives for the sake of tradition and doesn't have it impact gameplay in the slightest.

>>387737186
This entire thread anti-lives fags have failed to make a single argument towards the notion that lives are objectively bad.

>>387723443
Game reviewers cite lives as antiquated. Because years ago the observation was made that 3D game design had moved away from systems that were complimented by lives and continues and so they were phased out.

Now the concept that lives have become outmoded has become an idea without history for younger people and so it is blindly parroted. "It's outdated in this system" has been memed into "Lives are outdated".

Fact is 2D Sonic and Mario are fine examples of gameplay designed around fail state ecosystems with mushrooms, rings, lives, and continues softening the punishments of fail states on a curve ultimately resulting in some kind of forced reset for your failure. This is fine.

Uneducated parrots can't grasp this.

>>387736578
I've played Contras Hard Corps in Japanese first. The only changes in that version are unlimited continues and more hits. After getting good at the game I was able to beat the American version with limited continues and one-hit deaths no problem because the game fundamentally the same otherwise.

>>387736763
I like lives in most platformers, but those are a few where they feel important. For example, Super Mario Bros. 1 doesn't give you endless lives like the later Mario games, so you have incentive to perform well and preserve lives throughout the game. It also adds other elements to the game, like trying to find 1-up mushrooms and gather 100 coins to get more lives. Since there are things to find, and a strong incentive to gather them (your survival depends on it), it makes discovering secrets more interesting. Lives improve the overall experience in multiple ways that can't be replicated exactly by infinite respawns at checkpoints.

>>387723443
I played through this 3 times without game overing a single time. Get good, faggot

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>>387737367
Getting sent back to a previous level, or worse, the beginning of the game, wastes my FUCKING TIME, and being FORCED to replay levels as opposed to going back to them on your own volition makes me want to not play the same levels again

>>387737523
>People who suck at games aren't allowed to have fun so that they want to git gud

Let's settle this once and for all. Are lives a pointless game mechanic?
http://www.strawpoll.me/13751387/r

>>387737589
You wasted your time by failing to get better at the game. Lives economize the fail state. Stop meeting fail states and your precious time will stop getting wasted.

>>387737720
>People who suck at games should drag down the enjoyment of everyone else so they can have, unearned, the same experience as others

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Console Peasants hows the beta testing going?

Assblasted sonic fanboys ITT.

>>387737986
>>387737874
When I get a game over in Sonic 2 and get booted back to the main menu and have to start the game over, I stop playing Sonic 2. But if Sonic 2 booted me back to the last checkpoint upon every death, I'd want to get good enough at the game to beat it.

More forgiving checkpoints also allows games to be SIGNIFICANTLY harder on a moment- to- moment basis, and, therefore, more fun

>People who suck at games should drag down the enjoyment of everyone else so they can have, unearned, the same experience as others
I don't see how being booted back a few levels is fun for anyone

I'm still not sure wtf this game even is. Every video I see if it just shows rehashed levels from the original trilogy (mostly 2) and a couple other random mini games and 2 player functionality (which the originals also had). Is this a mostly new game or not, what am I missing?

>>387738082
>minor glitches that rarely happen ruin the game
have fun waiting pcfag

>>387737720
>People who suck at games aren't allowed to have fun
...yes? I don't deserve having fun in Europa Universalis as I never took the time to learn how to play the game and I suck in strategy games in general. Wouldn't be selfish from my part to ask their devs to cather me instead their already settled fanbase?

>>387738303
very little

>>387738303
The reused levels are mostly new designs besides the graphics, though they'll mix in some elements of the original levels. Some levels more than others.

There's also some new original levels.

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>>387723705
>tfw been enjoying so much PUBG that i get crates to sell for gayben cash

game paid for itself and paid for my sonic mania on steam.

I am hype to play it.

>>387723443
Finding extra lives is fun, though.

>>387738176
>When I get a game over in Sonic 2 and get booted back to the main menu and have to start the game over, I stop playing Sonic 2.
Get better at the early levels. Sonic 2 throws lives and continues at you.
>But if Sonic 2 booted me back to the last checkpoint upon every death, I'd want to get good enough at the game to beat it.
It already does this. The default fail state is as you describe. The penalty for unreasonable amounts of failure is a continue which puts you back to the start of the current stage. The ultimate penalty for a complete lack of the player's ability to adapt occurs only after failing so much you run out of all lives and continues. By which point it really is best you turn the game off and take a break.

>>387738534
If I struggle at late- game levels, then I should practice late- game levels, tho. Beating content I've already proved that I can beat is redundant.

Needing to take a break after dying five times over the course of 40 minutes is ridiculous.

>>387738176
>I don't see how being booted back a few levels is fun for anyone
Of course you don't. You want the ending handed to you. The people who "get it" are people who enter a game to be challenged. The lives economy is in place to mark your progress in skill. The better at the game you get, the rarer it is to see lives lost let along the continue screen. Completion of a difficult game with this system is a hallmark of your progress as a player. Not a treat at the end of a beige tunnel - the challenge equivalent of unseasoned porridge.

>>387738757
You have accumulated plenty of lives to practice -late- game levels if you're good enough at the early game. That's how the system works. If you have not earned the right to practice the late game levels then literally get gud you fucking panzy ass faggot.

>>387738898
If the game didn't think I was good enough at the early levels to be allowed to practice the later levels, then I shouldn't have been able to beat the early levels in the first place.

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>Game design is clearly made with Genesis era-purism in mind because that's what Taxman and Co. are and that's the fanbase they are trying to appeal to are
>Modern nu-gamers go on a Chinkonese lard-making facotry and complain about how a game that isn't targeting their demographic upsets them

Sonic games aren't renowned for their difficulty, but having problems with a game that literally lets you stay alive through any enemy encounter assuming you always have ONE(1) ring on you is quite possibly the most honest admission of being a fucking scrub who refuses to actually put in a modicum of effort in order to improve I've heard on /v/ in a long time. Maybe good Sonic games aren't for you, bud.

IS MANIA THE DARK SOULS OF SONIC??

>>387737589
swearing does not increase the validity of an argument.

>>387739105
Incorrect assertion on every level. Being just good enough to clear one level guarantees you nothing more than just that. The lives system is a penalty for failure. Stop failing if you want to stop being subject to the penalty.

>>387739136
Fuck no, have yet get a single game over. As far as pure diffiuclty goes, Knuckles is probably more punishing, but counting games that don't allow you to save, Sonic 1 and 2 are still harder.

>>387739340
Too bad you had to resort to "git gud" to say that

The game needs to make me want to git gud. I'm not gonna give my time to just any old game

>playing Press Garden as Knux
>messing around after beating the boss
>this happens

https://youtu.be/QTnX_np7kWs

>>387737589
This argument doesn't work because
>Lives based system don't inherently punish you with a greater time penalty than non lives based systems
>Lives based systems don't inherently punish you with a greater distance penalty than non lives based systems
It's also asinine to apply to Sonic Mania which has very lax punishments for failure. Sounds to me like you're arguing against the abolition of punishment, not lives.

>>387739491

Then stop playing games you don't like.

>>387739491
>Too bad you had to resort to "git gud" to say that
When the shoe fits.

>>387739491
>The game needs to make me want to git gud. I'm not gonna give my time to just any old game
The game owes you nothing. If you are dying so much at Sonic the Fucking Hedgehog that you lack the motivation to play then it is fine to throw in the towel. That's what the lives system is for. It's a system in place to filter you. Congratulations. You weren't the right fit for a game. There is nothing wrong with a game not being right for someone. Pandering to the lowest common denominator robs gaming of challenge and identity.

You can stop trying to fix what isn't broken now. It's not the game. It's you.

>>387739491
You don't even have to be a good any idiot could beat a 2d sonic game

>>387738082
>http://www.strawpoll.me/13751387/r
Game locked up like 5 times for me now... not funny

>>387737813
>Are lives a pointless game mechanic?

No, only a braindead neanderthal thinks as much.

Continues however are utterly worthless in a world with save files, especially autosave. Good thing Mania saves them exclusively for no-save mode then

>>387740365
In Sonic 3, continues started you off at the beginning of the act. So using a continue on act 2 would start you off at act 2 rather than having to go back to act 1 from the save screen.
In Sonic & Knuckles they fucked it up by making a continue start you off at you last checkpoint, essentially making continues 3 free lives. It's an awful stupid decision that makes no sense.

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>>387723443
So is this the new Sonic Mania thread. I built upon another anon's work and made this due to autism. Fused the Mania Sprite with the 3&K sprite for the best of both worlds. What do you think?

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>>387742204
The guy who made that also did a Mania fusion. Wish I had saved it.

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>>387723824
x9

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>>387742405
Oh shit, he did? Fuuuuck. It's probably better than mine. Wish I could see it. Hopefully they rip the Sonic Mania sprites soon. The romhacks could be incredible.

>>387740365
>braindead neaderthal
Watch it, sape.

>>387723443
>Lives should've gone the way of the dodo.
Why?