How do we make MMORPG's great again?

Bring back Shadowbane.

>>387557537
FFxiv is pretty good

Wait another 15 years until servers can handle a lot of people doing really cool shit all at once

>>387557537
You can't. The unfortunate truth about online gaming is people aren't social anymore. Everyone wants to solo and do the bare minimum of social interaction.

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>>387557872
server won't change if the general infrastructure of internet cable doesn't change in the whole country.
I wonder if there will be a way to eliminate lag altogether in the future...

Its better than it was a couple years ago

>>387557537
Remove features like cross-realm grouping and CRZ

>>387557537
You don't. Their time has come and gone.

>>387557537

Somehow destroy wikipedia websites that categorize and datamine every detail about MMO's, destroying the sense of adventure they once captured.

You cannot. Lack of social interaction and wikis that tell you where to go and what to do have destroyed the MMORPG genre.

>>387558493
The problem with your idea is that dead servers will stay dead and most people will only go to the most popular one.
That's not healthy at all.

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>>387557537
you make the players want to talk to randoms instead of just queuing for everything. And actually make questing a challenge.

>>387558493
Remove the concept of servers in general. Instead, provide proper load-balancing and spread out important content so that the majority of players don't congregate in one hot spot.

>>387557537
Make raids a casual filter again and amp up the exploration element

Delete the Big Bang Theory crowd and MMORPGs will be great again. Until then, they make too much money for devs and will be catered to every time. Enjoy your meme quest names, no social interaction, and simplified character building.

>>387558562
When it comes to WoW, allowing datamining is deliberate since Blizzard has to push the encryption keys. Hell, if they wanted to they could just stream everything to your client when you unlocked it.

>>387558685
The problem with dead servers is that companies would rather leave them in their pathetic state so they can keep getting $$$ from server transfers, instead of actually fixing the problem.

>>387558939
>Implying there's anything wrong with quest names being puns

i feel like with Destiny, MOBAs, online consoles, survival sandbox RPGs like Conan etc with couple of hundred-people servers, and just the way people play now, games are often looking more at the GW / Diablo kind of lobby-MMO and not a full persistent world. we just don't seem very good at it anymore, technically. FF14 alpha was packed with FATEs but they lagged the severs and besides, the open world becomes sort of irrelevant, you teleport around everywhere and queue for instances, so they culled them down. GW2 beta had live events and shit, again it was just too laggy, and the servers later all got split into "megaserver" instances. people are fickle and all want to jump on the "best/popular" server for raiding or PvP or whatever. my old WoW alliance character are all on a server that used to be full pop. Ally, now its medium/low Horde because it got packed with shitters and then fizzled out. server community is kind of dead and now devs dont design around it.

thats a good thing for exploring different types of gameplay / genre with MMO stuff going on, but bad if you want a proper persistent MMORPG.

design of games as products is very trend-based, like right now "hero shooter" is a buzz. in the MMORPG space everyone wants to do "oldschool hardcore sandbox" - to me that seems often just an excuse to do as little game design as possible, to sell an empty box with network connectivity. if if wasn't for shit like Firefall already failing, we could see "hero shooter MMO" in first or third person, as the next big thing. maybe something like Fallout Online will be like that. i'd be interested in seeing that done well, personally.

>>387557537
What are some good free MMORPGs?

>>387558018
>>387558620
This. And MMO players want everything immediately instead of working towards it.

>>387558763
This.

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What's up with Albion Online?

>>387558620
Man, playing Ragnarök Online 15 years ago was a blast. You could just go to some random dungeon, sit in a corner where everyone was sitting to regenerate their HP and idle and just chat with random strangers. Nice people just having fun conversations about all kinds of topics.
Now it seems online communities are mostly kids flinging shit at each other, competing on who can produce the most insults per minute.

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>>387559185
I can't believe I read that whole post.

bring dragon's dogma online to the west

no servers, channels only if absolutely necessary. Remove the minimap entirely
Make fishing great again

>>387558685
So you offer free transfers and be willing to close down dead servers while being pretty rigid about not letting people onto 'full' servers.

>>387557537
1: Crafting needs to be useful.

2: Classes need to feel distinct. Removing rigid trinity style class roles is fine but you can't just remove it and do nothing in exchange.

3: Graphical fidelity isn't nearly as important as people seem to think it is. People would play the shit out of a game that visually looked like Diablo 2 in HD if it looked good, and keeping system requirements low isn't a bad thing.

4: PVP and PVE can feed into each other but the respective game modes need to offer the best gear for their own game modes.

5: No systems that encourage poop socking. No PVP rating that gives rewards on a curve where the best 2 players on the server any week represent the final curve. No dungeons you can run endlessly for gear that scales to your level. You do something significant, you're done with it for the week.

6: See gear score? Good, now throw it the fuck out the window. Gear shouldn't feel like it's all tooled out based on a rigid formula with an allowance of points to spend.

7: Don't let players take anything for granted. Not mounts, not bags, nothing.

8: See those Brazilians? Russians? Keep them on their own servers.

9: Offer something like a Mentor Mode that allows experienced players to scale themselves down to the stats of a lower level player. No one should ever be in a position where they convince a friend to play but then have to say, 'OK, have fun leveling on your own till level 110! Don't forget, the community is complete ass when you're leveling!'

10: Encourage player contributions. Weapon and armor skins / models, dungeons, etc.

11: Vary zone design variety. While a zone that feels like someone mistook a Pollock painting for a design doc gets tedious after a while, so too does an endless procession of over-streamlined zones.

>>387558620
>>387558018
>>387559367

I disagree. I think mmos now make it baseline for content to be solo'd. Nothing REALLY presents a challenge, or if it does, it can be queued for or just skipped altogether. All they have to do is make shit impossible to solo if you don't spend a shit ton of time farming/preparing by yourself, or just grouping with a couple other anons who all need the same thing.

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>>387559810
Oh man you hit me right in my nostalgia. I made so many friends that way. That's how I got into my guild who got me into WOE. Even my first gf. Those were the days. Just walking by someone and doing an emote could get you talking. I miss it.

remake Guild Wars with modern graphics and Dark Souls combat

>>387558763
this didnt work for Wildstar. The challenges were such bullshit that you WANTED to pull people in with you despite not wanting to talk to people

But instead, people just didnt do anything but the big bosses at the end

>>387557537

I'm hoping Pantheon fills in the gap for that Everquest 2/Vanguard MMO I've been looking for.

>>387557784

I played the hell out of Shadowbane. I was in Lords of Death and it was eventually us against the entire server. We conquered ice island and called it something, I don't remember what. The ice dungeon in UO, we called it by that name.

The most fun I've ever had in an mmo. We had to come up with different tactics. Melee was rendered useless by our doom stacks.

>>387559175
>imploding removing all the gravitas and seriousness from the setting isn't a bad thing

>>387559247

Guild Wars 2
Elder Scrolls Online (not free but its like $5 you cheap fuck)

>>387560205
The sad thing is that it doesn't look like this kind of community will ever come back.

>>387560263
Because the community was shit. The types of people that played MMOs in 2004 are completely different then the ones that play now.

>>387557537
MMORPGs were never good.

>>387560090
12: No fucking queue systems. None. Get rid of it. You don't play a multiplayer game to go be an antisocial fuck.

13: Gear choices need to matter. If Warrior McTush has a choice between a mace, a sword and an axe there needs to be an actual difference between them. If they're all functionally identical you may as well have just given them three swords.

14: Assume that if push comes to shove, players will figure things out. Do not hold their hands for anything. Don't make things completely arcane, but don't go off to the other extreme.

15: Data mining is banned per TOS. Allow websites to spoil, but only if they make aggressive actions to hide this content and make no effort to advertise it.

>>387560530
>the community

well there's nothing to do about that but groom the next generation. Good luck with that though

Player communication is mandatory, no auto-group.

No gear treadmill, horizontal progression only.

The best stuff actually takes lots of dedication to get.

More classical RPG strategizing in battle, less action elements.

>>387557537
it'll come back as vr gains ground. vr is the thing /v/ is most wrong about, and it's perfect for social.

Stop imitating World of Warcraft.
Begin imitating Runescape.

>>387560090
>3: Graphical fidelity isn't nearly as important as people seem to think it is. People would play the shit out of a game that visually looked like Diablo 2 in HD if it looked good, and keeping system requirements low isn't a bad thing.
That bugs me the most about MMOs. Usually when you have a really good-looking MMO and try to get it to look good you tend to get microstutters depending on what areas or cities you're at. The only good looking MMO I can remember that didn't suffer from that was XIV, even when you have a shitload of players spamming their skills the worse you're going to get is a smooth dip rather than inconvenient freezing.

>>387560979
Albion Online did that, and that game is complete shit

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>>387560979
Begin imitating DAoC

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>>387557537
WoW has destroyed the concept. It and games like it need to be called MMORPG-lite, they're glorified lobby systems with static worlds, there is no difference between a realm with ten thousand players and a realm with one hundred players except for queue times.

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>>387561079
>Themepark Runescape
But why

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>>387560853
/vr/ mmo The World will revive the MMO genre

>>387560090
Who gives a fuck about crafting, and why does it need to be useful? So that one antisocial guy can pretend like he's contributing?

Graphics aren't important, they could look like Diablo 2, but HD, and look good? So they are important?

Pve and Pvp have unique gear, where they are the best for where you got them. But pvp gear isn't on a curve; so just anyone can get it? Is it just a certain amount of time you need to commit then?

As for gear score (if you're referencing wow), the only time it REALLY matters if you get into something is queue's and of course someone is going to pick the person with the higher gear score. But if you're doing actual content, GEAR matters, but gear score specifically doesn't matter.

What sort of bonuses would you get in mentor mode? Why should you get bonuses for repeating old/low level content?

>>387560853
>>387561340
>falling for the /vr/ meme
Yeah ok bud. It'll never be good enough in your lifetime.

>>387560090
>8: See those Brazilians? Russians? Keep them on their own servers.
This is vital. Communication is not possible with non-communicators.

>>387561454
what even the the limitation?

>>387560090
>poop socking
Havent seen anyone say that in years, actually forgot about it

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>dont want to play old mmos
>want something new
>literally nothing interesting coming out or planned for atleast the next few years

its literally just homo shit likes ashes of creation(lol kickstarter) or elyria. ill pass.

hopefully Bless gets a western release at least its got nice korean graphics

>>387558763
The problem is the loot treadmill. Once a majority of people have the loot they want from a particular fight, nobody wants to run that fight anymore, so you get forced to que hoping for the 3-4 stragglers to get together. Maybe the best way to solve this would be Diablo style randomized loot while making dungeons and fights much more interesting, so that people go into them just for the fun of doing them rather than for a specific piece of gear.

>Build a time machine
>Go back in time and assassinate pic related as well as a few other members of Arenanet who fucked up GW2
>Leave behind only people who wanted to literally just make Guild Wars 1 but with better graphics
>Guild Wars 2 releases and is just that
>WoW and every other MMO fades into obscurity and GW takes the throne
>WoW and all other MMOs are forced to raise the bar and improve to compete

MMOs saved.

>>387561449
>Who gives a fuck about crafting, and why does it need to be useful? So that one antisocial guy can pretend like he's contributing?

You need it if you want a player driven economy. And you do

>>387557537
I personally think they are forever dead, but I'd love to be proven wrong. Make datamining and min / maxing somehow impossible? That's not enough, confirmed a dead genre.

>>387561918
>so that people go into them just for the fun of doing them rather than for a specific piece of gear
Less than 1/10th of the WoW playerbase can even function on this concept. They're addict-personalities just looking for the next fix.

>>387560205
> Even my first girlfriend.
> In vidya

Damn, sorry man. You know that wasn't a real girl, right?

>>387562015
I can tell you're the person I replied to because you don't explain for shit. WHY? is what I was trying to get at with that whole reply....

So not even playing dumb here: But why does it even matter if the economy is "player driven" and what does that even mean, really.

>>387562104
As for min maxing, I'd like to see talent choices and things like that, be permanent again. It'll make choices feel WAY more important, and people will have more pride in whatever they chose, because they can't change it with the click of a button.

>>387557872
Beat me to it.

The "MMO" part is the only fun part about MMORPG's, everything else is just watered-down hotkey-heavy shit that only motivates me to play an actually-fun multiplayer game instead.

>>387562321
It means that your game stays alive. Tons of people play MMOs only for crafting/gathering, and it adds depth to the game. Same goes for pretty much everything that isn't "kill mobs get loot", like housing and social content in general.

Honestly, I'd like an MMO where everything was crafted like in Monster Hunter. Makes more sense than a monster carrying some pristine battleaxe.

>>387561449
>Who gives a fuck about crafting, and why does it need to be useful?
Agreed. All crafting does most of the time is let devs replace content and item drops with a shitty town minigame.

>>387562235
yes no women on the internet I get the meme. But we met and visited each other several times.

>>387561454
To be honest Anon, could you have imagined all the progress we had in the last 25 years in term of technology?
Maybe in 20 years I'll somehow still be alive and be able to play some VR mmo after work.

you travel back in time before social media existed and mmos were a leading vehicle for online social interaction behind web forums and chartrooms

>>387562225
Thats why some really clever people with PHds need to think out how to make a combat experience fun and desirable to repeat, while also feeding the carrot/stick paradigm.

>>387562914
You make a good point. Though current technology apperas to be plateauing. The jumps aren't quite as significant. Unless something happens that I know of we'll be seeing diminishing returns

>>387559185
>firefall
I will never not be angry.
First and last time I fucking bought a founder's pack for anything.
FUCK.

>>387557537
You don't.
>>387560090
>3: Graphical fidelity isn't nearly as important as people seem to think it is. People would play the shit out of a game that visually looked like Diablo 2 in HD if it looked good, and keeping system requirements low isn't a bad thing.
This is actually important, Wildstar was a good game, everyone I knew that never played it didn't want to get into it, because they didn't like how the graphics looked, but then went off and played WoW instead.
Also number 5 is entirely wrong. People will poopsock and complain about it Black Desert proved that.

We have to finally accept that WoW was garbage and isn't fun.

>>387557537
Take away the grinding aspect. Just make it fun to play without so much time investment.

>>387561715
Bless was so bad, RU server shut down before even out of open beta.

>>387557872
You literally can't have more than maybe even five people doing "cool shit" at once. The more people you have the less visual or tactical impact each individual is going to have.

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>>387557537
Star Citizen is coming out soon. Up to 10 players can be on-server simultaneously for a smooth 15-20 fps experience.

>>387557537
Any successful MMO should follow these guidelines:

I) Their business model shouldn't be leeching off whales;

II) The ingame progression should be slow, but without giving any upper hand to people with lots of free time. Offline slow progression is the way to go. You should progress faster online, but there should be a limit on how time you can stay online;

III) Dynamic world. And by that I mean a player-run economy and player-run politics. Players should be able to shape the server, cities and etc should change overtime, etc. And although the direction of change should be decided by the players, it shouldn't rely on players literally doing everything. Let NPCs build the cities, sell the stuff, etc. Players should be the ones giving directions to the NPCs;

IV) Combat should be easy to understand, but hard to master. Also it must take into account there'll be battles with potentially lots of people: these too should be easy to understand what's going on and allow for groups to come up with strategies and coordination instead of clusterfuck + button smash (an organized UI is a key point here).

>>387563330
>Star Citizen coming out soon
No, it's been postponed indefinitely they were suppose to have 3.0 out before Gamescon this year, but haven't. Also servers can hold 24 people only still.

>>387561715
we aren't getting Bless bruh

the game needs to be recoded just to RUN properly. It's been pigeonholed indefinitely

>>387563207
>what is COD, FIFA, MADDEN, the usual console shit

>>387563330
>When you're so autistic you not only constantly post threads about a game you've decided to hate you also shitpost about that game in other threads

>>387563568
It's a shit game filled with empty promises, go buy another ship, cocksmoke.

>>387561593
The only limitation is that the potential playerbase is far too small to even consider developing a VR mmo. You will only see small ones from hobbyists in the foreseeable future.

>>387557537
PVP or PVE exclusively. Fucks up balance too much otherwise.

Make the game about the ride, not about the end game.

Huge world. No fast travel. No map. No mini map.

No 3rd party mods.

No instances.

>>387563207
This won't work. Even if people enjoy the game, they will only log on to do very specific tasks and the game will remain a desert.
I've played on some private server a couple of months ago. It was lively and full of people, but the moment the bulk got to max level and got their gear, the online population took a MASSIVE drop, despite most people still playing (the server displayed daily and weekly unique logins), which caused people to quit the server and caused a chain reaction, which eventually killed the server.
MMOs depend on people being online and doing things, keeping them logged in, keeping the game world active. An MMO without lots of people walking around is dead on arrival.

>>387563682
>Implying I even paid for the game
Go see a shrink to cure you of that autism, poster no (50).

>>387563526
>0 dollars spent
>>387563568
>fully invested
>dedicates a portion of his income to Star Citizen
>already has a guild ready to go dedicated to unrealistic gameplay expectations like 'mercenary' or 'smuggling'

>>387563478
Firstly, you're a fucking idiot. For point one, are you just saying there shouldn't be monthly payments, or microtransactions, or what? Point two, people should progress even by doing nothing? Point 3, city development should be player run, but over time, but they really just tell the NPCs what to do, so it's really just Dev run? And how is point 4 not already in existence even with just wow?

Classes need to be able to do more than be DPS / healing / tanking machines. They need to serve a specific function, so that it is desirable to have that function in your party. If youre going to have a rogue class, he needs to be able to steal shit and pick locks. If youre going to have a paladin, he needs to have vastly superior antievil powers. A class who has the ability to fix things, or pilot things, or cast spells more than just for damage (i.e. levitate, read languages, speak with the dead). As WoW is right now, you could literally eject all the current classes and just a single dps / tank / heal class each and it wouldnt make a difference.

>>387563707
A pvp exclusive, open world mmo sounds like a pretty cool idea.

>>387563478
>Offline slow progression is the way to go. … there should be a limit on how time you can stay online

>mmONLINErpg
>don't allow people to play online

>>387563795
Shrinks can cure autism now?

>>387563940
>LF 2 dps for undead dungeon. PALADINS ONLY
>Can I come, I'm a hunter and there's some really good gear in there for me
>PALADINS ONLY IT'S UNDEAD DUNGEON

We can start by making games that are actually massively multiplayer online role-playing games for one. Focus on development for the virtual community instead of a set of instanced shit. Let players make unique builds. Let mobs be unique so that the unique player builds aren't wasted. Let player grouping be organic instead of 5 man trinity shit. But most importantly stop pretending your game is WoW.

>>387563940
Or a time least blend functions or give kind with the same function different specialties. MMOs used to do this until the invention of party finder required each role functionally identical

>>387564219
Dungeons where you know ahead of time exactly everything you're going to face are a big part of what's wrong with """"""MMORPGs"""""" these days.

>>387563940
That would be pretty interesting. I wonder if it might even be better in a more modern genre of mmo for instance like with base builders, trench diggers, pilots etc etc. Or just really specify the role of some of the classic roles like a wizard can only do one thing like read tomes and his whole combat system revolves around that.

>>387563707
>Huge world. No fast travel. No map. No mini map.

Yes
I started the trial run of FF14 and I can't believe that the devs thought their game and the way the main quest would run by admitting you would fast travel all the time
It lead abomination like talking to a NPC telling you he have NO information for you but maybe this another NPC at the other end of the world have something to tell you, the worst is the other NPC will tell you the same, rince and repeat
Game designing a game around the fast travel mechanic is bullshit

F2P ruined EVE
All other MMOs suck

Just kill me

A modern Ultima Online.
Problem solved.

>>387564319
>Let player grouping be organic instead of 5 man trinity shit
You're just replace the trinity with something else.

>>387564416
You're retarded. Once you run a dungeon once you know exactly what it entails. Or even more likely

>go to run dungeon, get in a group.
>dungeon has been out for 3 weeks now, the other 4 people already know the layout
>complete it in 20 minutes

You would have to have a dungeon be completely randomly generated for it be anything new after the first week it's released.

>>387563940
WoW
>rogues had to level up lockpicking on their own
>people specifically sought out rogues to open their lockboxes
>pickpocketing mobs gave you a bit of extra loot with fun stuff

>most rogues didn't even know they had the skill nor bothered leveling it
>lockpicking became auto-leveled

>most people didn't bother with the lockboxes because it required them to actually speak to another person for less than a minute
>removed them as loot

>pickpocketing gave rogues an unfair loot advantage
>turned it into dedicated gimmick loot

WoW really is just becoming a designer's guide on how not to make MMORPGs.

Go back in time and prevent MOBAs

>>387557537
hack and slash combat
full fledged player driven economy
can quick scope
player housing
good endgame
fly space ships
good crafting system
sizeable amount of content on launch
no waiting in real time for shit
no cash shop
zombies

>>387562635
>watered-down

Name one non MMO game with complex raids. If anything modern RPGs and even FPS games are just watered down MMOs now.

>>387564449
>>387563940
>No one wants to play the support class because less dps, means less farming/completely unable to do anything on their own
>have to group up for even the most miniscule of things because I'm a mechanic
>80% of non-tanks/healers are warrior or whatever big dick dps is

>>387563936
>>387564136
Leeching off whales isn't the only way to make money. Also the whole point is not relying on whales to make money. Most people don't want to spend hours grinding, but simply giving them everything they want right off the bat also kills any sense of community (which is essential to have players running anything in the game), that's why the progression should be slow and there should be restrictions on how many hours the players can progress online. Offline progression and NPCs are just to deal with the point of playing not being expected to stay online several hours a day.

>>387564219
Then the dev should think a way to avoid autism like this
For example, the dungeon isn't 100% undead or you can't progress in the dungeon without some skills provide by other classes
Basically being fucking creative in the conception of the game instead of doing steamlined piece of crap

>>387564676
That's the idea you moron. The trinity is absolute trash and you only improve a game by replacing it with something else.

>>387564686
You even came up with the answer yourself but still couldn't help but think of things in WoW terms.

>>387564885
>There should be restrictions on how many hours the players can progress online
>Abloo bloo bloo Neets have an advantage

Never make an MMO please.

>>387557537
What shitty Korean grindfest is that OP?

>>387565041
>That's the idea you moron. The trinity is absolute trash and you only improve a game by replacing it with something else.
Which would be the trinity 2.0 and people like you would complain and demand trinity 3.0. Rinse repeat.

>>387565041
I've never even played wow ya sperg. Also, randomly generated dungeons are a copout for lack of creativity. Dungeons/instances should have stories attached to them, a reason for going into them. If you make them so random that they don't make sense, no point. If the random is just well now corridor one leads to a dead end instead of corridor two this run that's even worst.

Being able to farm dungeons has never been the problem. Hell, once you explore the world should it change completely?

>>387557537
make SAO real

>>387565240
Ok, how about another Korean grindfest but without level restrictions?

>>387563085
Wildstar had serious problems with it's aesthetic. The first time it started screaming because I leveled up and had that 90's style ATTITUDE oozing out of every pore I legit turned off the game and forgot about it for a week.

>>387561449
>Who gives a fuck about crafting, and why does it need to be useful? So that one antisocial guy can pretend like he's contributing?

It gives players something to do that isn't purely combat driven. MMORPG's need to vary their game play. MMMORPG's want a player driven economy. What you need to justify is NOT having crafting in the game.

>Graphics aren't important, they could look like Diablo 2, but HD, and look good? So they are important?

It's a measure of system resources. A game can look good but demand modest system req's. A game can have high fidelity, but it can't not be a system hog if it does that.

>But pvp gear isn't on a curve; so just anyone can get it?

Burning Crusade era PVP would be the template. Anyone can get the gear, but if it's locked behind restrictions, its locked behind something that is at least plausibly skill driven like a rating restriction. What we're trying to avoid is Classic WoW era PVP where any given week only 2-4 players are rank 14, and to do so involves a 16-hour-a-day grind.

>What sort of bonuses would you get in mentor mode? Why should you get bonuses for repeating old/low level content?

You'd get something to justify the time invested. But the overt point is so that your max level character can actually do stuff with your newbie friends without either diluting content (think GW2, where your character is hard-scaled to whatever zone they are in) or forcing you to roll new characters.

>But if you're doing actual content, GEAR matters, but gear score specifically doesn't matter.

The problem is that Blizzard came around and started basing the gear in their game on a gear score system. Suddenly every piece of gear adhered strictly to a point system.

>>387564885

>There should be restrictions on how many hours the players can progress online

XIV 1.0 did something like that, it didn't turn out too well. Artificially hindering player progress will just piss people off, it's a bad idea. I agree you shouldn't be able to get to max level in a day, but there's always those extreme people who will grind for 24 hours straight, but it's not a huge majority.

>>387557537
Make Gear unique by design, we dont need a thousamd people runnimg around in the same endgame gear.

Make dungeons runnable both solo and as parties, with the added benefit if faster grinding for resources and RNG as party. Same shit for raids with a generated Pawn system like DDO. A big problem in Raids is the fact yoy need to learn all their bullshit mechanic dances befire you can actually run them which just drags everyone else down when a newbie fucks ups.

Add more varied questing and storylines that dont consist of just killing boarasses and can include social stuff like " Jamie the farm boy wants to have a date! Find a nice girl to show him a good time" in which you need to convince a player to play along so you both get rewarded.

Encourage player discussion and interaction by making dedicated social spots like Taverns and Pubs, give an incentive to do it by improving skills for interacting with other players (emotes give small points, discussion between two players adds more, group discussion gives even more).

Have cleverlh generated quest qnd dungeoning where the mechanics of the instance are only known to a party leader, and he has to sit down and explain the game plan to approach the dungeon.

Give actual fun activities to do with interedting mini games, not yet another "go press and mine rocks and fishes". Something like jousts, theatrical performances to NPCs and players, playing music, colosseum. Attending these events rewards both performers and attendees.

Make some real travel limitations like Maple Story had, a train going at a certain time of day and sticking yohr character in a half hour ride. Get to know other people.

Have good but not cutting edge graphics with a well directed and comfy artstyle that immerses you in its world. Make it the world you want to be in.

Make combat engaging and real, instance based is tge best solution to lag, ala DDO/ Vindictus.

Thats a good MMO to me.

>>387564885
>progression should be slow and there should be restrictions on how many hours the players can progress online

So artificially time-gating rewards, for what reason exactly? Again, you're a fucking idiot.

>>387557537
Stop copying fucking WoW. Bring back interesting powers. Look at City of Heroes awesome skills.

Also, a minor thing that's always REALLY FUCKING BUGGED ME about MMOs, especially WoW, and I don't know why it is the way it is, why the fuck don't your spells change graphically as your level up? Why the fuck does a Level 1 Mage in WoW have a firebolt that looks LITERALLY IDENTICAL to a Lv100 fireball? There's no fucking excuse for this. PSO, a game made in like 2001, did this. Your spells gain graphical effects and look more powerful as you level up. It actually makes it feel like you're growing stronger. WHY IS THIS NOT THE INDUSTRY FUCKING STANDARD

Kinda got an itch to play an MMO.

What's funner? Rift, GW2, or ESO?

>>387564885
>people should only be allowed to excel up to a level that i can compete with
You sound like a socialist.

>>387565403
>>387564885

Yeah, every game that has had some kind of energy system for actions in-game has died horribly. Look at Archeage too.

>>387565450
>Funner

Gtfo and play GW2, you deserve that shitfest

>>387557537
Get rid of hotbar and Trinity gameplay

>>387565373
Sure, why not? Some people enjoy that. Just because the game allows you to reach a retardedly high level by no-lifing doesn't mean your obligated or required to get there, you just personally have an issue with it because you think you're entitled to be the best and would be if it weren't for those pesky NEETs.

>>387565450
Rift has some of the worst combat I've ever seen. The concept that made it interesting, the rifts, have been made obsolete. It was a hell of a game when it first came out.

GW2 is pretty fun, and the world always seems full. Then you hit max level and realize there's absolutely nothing to do.

ESO is okay if you don't stare too hard into the shit writing since it's supposed to be a story driven mmo.

>>387565286
Not OP, but Silkroad online. (I think?)
Grinding skillpoints in bandit fortress was tedious.

>>387565375
>The problem is that Blizzard came around and started basing the gear in their game on a gear score system. Suddenly every piece of gear adhered strictly to a point system.

Only complete retards believe a higher ilvl is always better. Classes are based around their secondary stats. High ilvl is just there for normies to feel good.

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>How do we make MMORPG's great again?
Get rid of the eternal fifth wheel of video games: healers.

No one likes to play them except for sissy ERPers and attention whores that want constant praise and (you)s for doing their boring jobs. All they do is slow down gameplay and encourage power creep.

LOSE THE CURATIVE JEW

>>387557537
Stop catering to kids and casuals.

WoW is a great example of what not to do. Literally ZERO effort to get to lvl 100+ now thanks to LFD, LFR, and ramped-up exp gain on lower level zones. Because of this, there's no feeling of accomplishment when you've hit peak level. No "I fuckin' made it" sensation. It's just "lol fuck you now grind for ilvls".

Bring back all the inane bullshit like carrying arrows, collecting shitloads of items in order to amass spellcrafting utilities, etc.

Is it inconvenient? Yes. But it makes challenges feel much more rewarding when you realize how much time you've put into it. ON TOP OF THAT, you're extending the gameplay of the average player, and there's no need to shit out a halfassed expansion every year.

One of my major problems with most MMOs is that they focus all their effort on the endgame and make the journey nothing more than a boring, pointless solo grind. Back when I played Everquest 2 and Vanguard it took awhile to get to max level, but the content between 1-max level was genuinely enjoyable, with a mixture of quests and content for both solo and party, with group content offering better exp and more rewards. There were public dungeons that were more entertaining than your standard fare, there was plenty of chances for socialization and meeting people, it wasn't just a boring slog to cap unless you played it that way, hell Vanguard had so much shit to see and do leveling up you could level up several different characters and end up doing different things. The journey was enjoyable, it wasn't just a bland grind to endgame, there was genuinely good content to do, that's what's lacking with most MMOs these days.

>wotlk
>spriest
>every single time I do vault another priest wins my PVP gear even though they dont need it
>get so butthurt that I made 25man vault runs with no other priests in the entire raid

>>387562321
That wasn't actually me. You want a player driven economy for the simple fact that whenever possible, whenever it makes sense, you should allow player interaction to become part of the game's content. It breeds competition and interaction, which is fundamental to any MMORPG. If you only ever get stuff from interaction with NPC's- be it buying gear from a vendor or getting a drop off a mob- you take it for granted.

It only becomes an issue when Classic Era WoW sets in and a raid guild spends twice as much time outside the raids farming for mats for said raid and then suddenly everyone's breathing a sigh of relief because a BOE epic dropped and the sale of it will cover mat costs for a month.

>>387565041
The trinity only fails when it becomes so rigid that within the three roles there's virtually no variation. The problem with World of Warcraft when classes felt distinct wasn't that you could min max, but that raid design encouraged it.

>>387565417
>Make Gear unique by design
So basically borderlands. There's no other feasible way to do this.

>Encourage player discussion and interaction by making dedicated social spots like Taverns and Pubs
This won't work. These places would remain empty. The number of people that role-play like this is tiny. Social interaction can't be planned like this. People aren't machines that follow an strict algorithm.
>give an incentive to do it by improving skills for interacting with other players
This won't make people more social. I predict that it'll have the opposite effect, people will become more hostile towards each other. Social interaction becomes a grind for benefits that people feel forced into instead of genuine social interaction.

>Have cleverlh generated quest qnd dungeoning where the mechanics of the instance are only known to a party leader
This means a lot of work to develop, and a week later everyone reads the whole thing up in a wiki. Same as with the social interaction. You want to plan how people will behave. It doesn't work.

>Have good but not cutting edge graphics with a well directed and comfy artstyle that immerses you in its world. Make it the world you want to be in.
Does any developer purposely make worlds that people don't want to be in? Why is this even a suggestion?


These are the most ridiculous points of your post. You clearly have no idea how people work and interact with each other.

>>387565902
>Remove healers
>Combat now becomes one of two things
>>Everyone can heal through either personal skills or potions (boring, but effective)
>>No healing at all, focus on never getting hit (Works for single player, shit for anything outside of mostly client side multiplayer)
Ultimately all you accomplish is removing gameplay options, since MMO's cannot properly support high paced, precision combat.

>>387565959
>Hey, this mmo just came out with a new expansion, I'll give it a shot.
>Been playing for 4 months now and I'm not even level cap. When does it get fun? When can I play with everyone else?

Absolutely nothing wrong with increased exp rates at lower levels to create a catch-up mechanic.

>>387565450
Rift still exists?
What.

>>387565435
I'm surprised and sad that more gamesdidn't look to PSO for inspiration. It did some cool shit. There are no dedicated healers in it, healing is something most classes can do, and even the ones who are best at it can still do other shit. There's not really a holy trinity, just varying degrees of "Damage" and "Support".

That, and crazy loot. MMO loot is so fucking boring. It's just small incremental shit. PSO and D2 had awesome loot that just got crazy. Here's a knife that spontaneously shoots lightning bolts when you hit things with it. Here's a rifle that functions like a shotgun and paralyzes things. 4 stam 4 strength leather belt UUUUHG.

>>387557537
Make combat fun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kIQJil7mCA

>>387566239
>I'm surprised and sad that more gamesdidn't look to PSO for inspiration. It did some cool shit. There are no dedicated healers in it, healing is something most classes can do, and even the ones who are best at it can still do other shit. There's not really a holy trinity, just varying degrees of "Damage" and "Support".

they did that in gw2 and it was fucking terrible, there was no flavor to the classes at all

>>387566003
This. Eventually new players get dissuaded by how un-maintained early-to-mid content is, and subscriber levels start to drop.

Look at shit like WoW's Silithus. Such a cool-looking zone and concept, but it's easily one of the most aged areas in the entire fucking game. Also, only like 2 quests.

>>387558348
>Entire country laid with fiber optic
>Pizza box servers everywhere
>5ms ping to anyone at any time no matter your actual speed
This exists in South Korea and Japan
If only America got off it's ass

"We need jobs, bla bla bla."

Well, maybe if the internet companies weren't fucking around and hired some fuck heads to lay fiber optic through the country, but that will never happen with the ISP monopoly still in play.

I'm just ranting.

>>387565849
>Only complete retards believe a higher ilvl is always better. Classes are based around their secondary stats. High ilvl is just there for normies to feel good.

Blizzard DID state that the higher gear score item was supposed to always be better, but WoW's gearing is a complete clusterfuck right now. One of the reasons I quit Legion after about a month.

But I was referring more to the fact that there isn't very many unusual items anymore. Other than broke ass trinkets added to make class specs that got fucked for an entire expansion viable for the last content patch you don't really see items that make people do a double take...

...unless we're talking about the legendary gear system in WoW which is yet again it's own brand of dog shit.

>>387557537
Need a big company behind the MMO to bring in the players but that means it will have a massive budget that it has to make back meaning it will be filled with jewish tactics to drain money out of you

Basically it's impossible

>>387565902
fuck off icefrog

>>387566208
What I'm saying is that you're literally wasting content in doing so.

There's pretty much zero reason for 90% of WoW's zones to exist now because people level past them so insanely fast.

>>387566320
There literally has never been a single good trinity-less MMO, I'm not sure where people get such an infatuation with the idea
>Class 1 gets to damage, CC, and self-sustain with red particles
>Class 2 gets to damage, CC, and self-sustain with blue particles
>Class 3 gets to damage, CC, and self-sustain with green particles
whoa shit gotta get me some of that

>>387566493
This.

I'll say it once and million times more. We won't see a good mmo until some neckbeard wins the lottery and funds the thing entirely himself with no jews controlling it.

>>387566320
How does it work in GW2? It works really well in PSO, but that might be because there are different types of support. Rangers support by laying down status effects and suppressing fire, while Forces support by healing and buffing allies, and simultaneously debuffing enemies... All while still fighting and contributing to damage. Add this on to class/race/gender specific special weapons, WILDLY different stats, and even major differences among subclasses within a class, and everyone felt very unique. Where does GW2 fuck this up?

>>387566542
I understand what you're saying but it's old content. Content that is literally 10+ years old that people have played through dozens of times and they don't want to keep doing it. That's the problem with mmos that go on for as long as wow has. The "old world" loses its charm and becomes obsolete. I don't see a way of keeping it relevant without forcing every new character to play through it for the 50th time.

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>>387557537
No idea if this would make things great per-say but:
>A little more effort to introduce variables in quests
Even if the objective ultimately remains the same, a different setting, different baddies, and different macguffin can do wonders

>quest diversity
Secret World does this pretty well with normal missions, Sabotage, and Investigations. Not to mention the occasional habit of needing to pay attention to certain orders in which things happen

>Well-designed zones
This is kind of a nebulous thing, but something I've learned across over a half dozen MMOs is that you need to keep zones looking unique, with a decent amount of interesting locations to explore, but not overload it. Secret world actually hits it pretty well with Solomon Island areas, and Guild Wars 2 zones were interesting, but in a way "too" interesting because they were too densely packed and on the flipside, TESO, City, and DCUO have a bit of an issue where the interesting bits are spaced too far apart. Nevermind actual playable content in zones

>player created content
Mission Architect was the fucking bomb, also customizable bases and nothing following some damn cookie-cutter like in TOR or DCUO

>No Dance Emotes
Instead of entire dances being in emotes, individual dance moves should be 'temporary' skills you can buy in-game or from the cash shop to fill you skillbar with a customized set up of groovin'!

>>387566564
Even if the MMO that neckbeard makes is good, it will be really hard to get players for a game made by a dev nobody has heard of before, which is why you need a big name company behind it, at which point it will be ruined

>>387564885
Take your energy system back to the mobage trash can where it belongs

>>387557784
FPBP for real

>>387557537
The best MMOs make you feel like an insignificant part of a much larger world, and let you make your own adventure.

Nowadays every MMO has to turn the PC into the greatest hero to ever live.

>>387565403
>>387565424
>>387565470
>>387565480
Tibia has a stamina system in which your experience gain rate drops over time and you can only recover by staying offline. The game is shit nowadays, but not because of stamina. Actually, most players there probably agree that it was a good thing, since it prevented account sharers from getting a too big of advantage over everyone else.

>>387565642
This kind of thread pops up everyday precisely because there's a lot of people that want something else other than korean grindfests. Also if you want a MMO to have more player interaction (like player-driven politics or whatever), you have to think about how to keep things balanced and what kind of behaviour are you going to reward.

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Waifus ALWAYS solve everything. You can't deny this. Even if the gameplay is shit, the waifus always manage for the game to not be a complete ruin.

The most obvious answer is stop making it about racing to level cap. Log Horizon was an anime about getting trapped in their favorite mmo. They reference a lot of cool quests and rewards that were still useful for people who had hit level cap.

Make a world that keeps you excited to do a quest or stay in a zone at level 46 instead of just grinding out as quick as you can so you can start doing useful shit. Archeage during beta did a really good job at this but then it quickly turned to shit.

>>387557537
Tera. But less Korean Cashshop armor upgrade dust.

>>387566152
>So basically borderlands. There's no other feasible way to do this.
Yes there is. Quite simple too. You get parts to make armors look as u want. Players can design their own sets and sell them.
>This won't work. These places would remain empty. The number of people that role-play like this is tiny. Social interaction can't be planned like this. People aren't machines that follow an strict algorithm.
Yes, it does work. Visiting social spots in various MMOs shows this, and that wasnt even with incentives. Just because you are geared more towards killing shit doesnt mesn people cant sit down and chat about shit, people do it all the time. Now they dont have to only go kill shit and give up on talking.

>This won't make people more social. I predict that it'll have the opposite effect, people will become more hostile towards each other. Social interaction becomes a grind for benefits that people feel forced into instead of genuine social interaction.
You dont have to do it. Its an option to improve by not doing the usual shit and actually talking.
>This means a lot of work to develop, and a week later everyone reads the whole thing up in a wiki. Same as with the social interaction. You want to plan how people will behave. It doesn't work.
What part of generated is hard to get? What yoy're saying is akin to saying the rile of a GM doesnt work. Thats retarded.


>Does any developer purposely make worlds that people don't want to be in?
Yes. Many Korean MMOs actually.
Just addiction-prone garbage with numbers flying all over the place. The gsmeworld needs to be captivating too.

>These are the most ridiculous points of your post. You clearly have no idea how people work and interact with each other.
And to me you sound like someone who refuses to do any real interaction excepts when it directly benefits you or you are in necessity. Why the fuck are u even playing an MMO if you dislike the idea of a hubspot so much? Grind imaginary gear? Lmao.

>>387567106
>Make a world that keeps you excited to do a quest or stay in a zone at level 46 instead of just grinding out as quick as you can so you can start doing useful shit
This will never work.

>>387566751
What I think they should do is set an account lock for exp boosts imo, like how certain classes are locked unless you've had a character reach their level before.

Hear me out. If you've got a character that's reached a certain level threshold(say, max for that xpac, or just lvl 100), then any new characters you make will have an exp boost option that helps you speed through.

That way, new subscribers get to explore the world, and old subscribers get to skip if they want.

That's the only thing I can personally think of to even things out for new subscribers. It seems unfair to push EVERYONE into endgame content when there's so much more they could see around the game and have a challenge while doing so.

Take levels out of the MMO and instead you have to do quest chains to gain new skills or find skills by exploring the world

>>387566239
And then PSO2 fucked it up by making the game so dodging focused that any healing or defending skills are worthless because they just take away from your damage output

>>387565345
What if the dungeon being different every time was part of the story?

>>387565450
Rift is all around mediocre. Avoid.

GW2 is one of those games were the levelling experience is better than the endgame. Let it sink in.

ESO is just an ok MMO with some token TES mechanics.

Go for either FFXIV or WoW.

>>387567518
The only problem with that is unless you have a steady steam of new players coming into your game they're going to be playing through a world no one else is and that's not fun and it drives away your new player base.

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Are there any MMO's where I can just roam around a game world and play it more as a single player experience? I like going through quests and on adventures. Preferably something like Everquest or LOTR Online

Please don't recommend my FFXIV though, it's way too theme-parky.

>>387567749
Have you tried Everquest, or LOTR Online?

>>387567553
Oh shit you got me there. Would be silly to explain why all 20 or however many dungeons are all randomized every time. But one makes sense. Still doesn't solve the "I've done this once, now it's boring" problem.

WoW is good again if you play this rad shit.

http://project-ascension.com/

Vanilla Content in the WotlK version of the game but with a huge change, it's classless, you can learn any talents and spells you want and items have a chance to have Random Enchants that give you talent points, so you might for instance gather a set of gear that gives you a bunch of -energy cost for Sinister Strike talents and build your dude to just be able to sinister strike every GCD while wielding a Windfury 2h

>>387567749
Runescape

>>387567749
Runescape?

You can Solo almost all of DDO by hiring NPC pawns but its currently in Japanese with a halfway English patch.

>>387567749
Guild Wars 1
Only time you see other people is in cities since the other areas are instanced

>>387567808
Don't you have to pay for all the classes in Everquest now?

>>387567716
Yeah, true.

Fuck. I miss the early days.

>>387567749

If it was still up I'd recommend Vanguard, one of the best MMOs to explore in. It got shutdown a few years ago though, there's a private server where I believe most of the world is available, but combat is still being implemented I believe.

>>387567482
Why not? If 60% of the playerbase is within 5 levels of you instead of current mmos where 95% of the playerbase is capped why would it not work?

>>387567372
>Yes there is. Quite simple too. You get parts to make armors look as u want. Players can design their own sets and sell them.
It was not clear that you were talking about visuals.
>Yes, it does work. Visiting social spots in various MMOs shows this, and that wasnt even with incentives.
>and that wasnt even with incentives.
That's exactly what I was trying to tell you. You can't plan those things, people pick those places. Your carefully designed bar will remain empty wasted space, while some random flavor of the month spot will attract people because god fucking knows why.

>You dont have to do it.
Yeah, it won't go like that. If there is a benefit, people will try to get it. You can't create social interaction with a skinner box. It'll just make people more frustrated if they don't want to interact with people in the first place. If they do want that though, they don't need a reward.

>What part of generated is hard to get?
Generated means either rng shit or from carefully designed puzzle pieces that will be on some wiki a week later.

>Yes. Many Korean MMOs actually.
>Just addiction-prone garbage
The reason doesn't matter. People go to those places because they are designed to attract them. Again, nobody designs games that people don't want to play. It's nonsense.

>And to me you sound like someone who refuses to do any real interaction excepts when it directly benefits you or you are in necessity.
No. You expect people to behave the way you want them to, which doesn't work. I simply pointed that out. You want to design human interaction. It simply doesn't work. Has never worked, and will never work.

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>>387557537
You know, thinking about it, another factor of this feels like it would also come down to Genre a bit.

>>387567519
This would be kickass in a fantasy MMO...

But how would it work in a Cape-Hero themed MMO like Champions or DCUO?

>>387567106
>>387567482
Secret World does it. Though mostly because all missions are repeatable and now with levels, you can take petty revenge on everything that gave you problems at lower levels.

>>387566979
I'll agree with this. TSW actually comments on it more than a few times and it works. Ironic since, as a nigh dead MMO. you often find yourself the only one doing shit and it works to make you feel lonely and isolated.

But I swear, TESO's main story could have been improved SO much if they suggested you were not the only vestige and not even the only one The Prophet was helping. Maybe even if they had a part of breaking out of Coldharbor where you help Lyris bust out a bunch of other people.

>>387567540
Fuck don't even get me started on that piece of shit. Pure damage classes (and melee classes) have always been my least favourite, especially in PSO, so when they turned the focus to ENTIRELY THAT it basically killed the game for me.

>>387557537
ITT: everyone complains on how everything looks like WoW, but never played anything other than WoW and WoW clones and everything everyone here wants is a WoW that somehow brings back the nostalgia of playing it for the first time.

Make grouping up give a higher chance of good loot.

>>387567519
People will just open a wiki and mindlessly work through point after point. That's even less desirable than mindless grind.

>>387565345
> stories attached to them, a reason for going into them
You don't have to sacrifice that to bring in enough randomness that the experience stays fresh. You can keep the theme and backstory of the dungeon. You can keep the lore tidbits that are contained inside it. It's only the gameplay elements that need to be shuffled around to keep things fresh. You don't randomly generate the entire dungeon; just shuffle the layout, have mob packs spawn with randomised group compositions and random variants in their abilities and attributes. Randomise where the traps and treasures appear. Things like that don't change what the dungeon is or what it's about.

>>387567957
Me too, m8. MMOs were only good because you were exploring the new world with everyone else and it was magical. Really if anyone just made a new world and game it would be top shit until the jews turned it into a pw grindfest like every other mmo. They're just so expensive to make with how many man hours you need to make one.

>>387568056
Because people want to win, want to be better than the others. The only way to achieve what you want is by artificially locking content away, which will only make people not want to play your game.

>>387568191
I complain about WoW because I have played games older than it and can see how it eroded what it means for a game to be an MMORPG.

>>387568069
Im not trying to design human behaviour, i'm just creating spots to do it in and incentives to drive a player, since most of what we do in a game is driven by an imcentive. Just imagine the gathering hall of MonHun. You're there for questing but you can also sit down and talk with people and spending time doing it can reward you in some manner, unrelated to EXP levelling.

Chances are you're gonna talk with people anyways to make a party, its just gonna give a positive push for seeking people out and talking to them over queuing.

If you're so adamant about it not working, what are good examples of games that tried and failed.

>>387568250
So? If that's what they want to do they can do it. I would rather explore a world with other people wh owant to explore it and let the people that wanna min max do their own thing.

>>387568250
There is nothing you can do about someone looking up how to do something online. The best you can do is make the content interesting enough that people will rather keep playing instead of tabbing out to read

>>387567834
>its a stupid retards try to make WoW good "again" because they don't understand it was never good episode

>>387568191
I've actually never played WoW.

I've played...
>Ragnarok Online
>City of Heroes
>Guild wars 1
>Champions Online
>Guild Wars 2
>TERA
>Star Wars: The Old Republic (which, as I've been told is EXTREMELY WoW clone-y)
>DCUO
>The Secret World
>FFXIV A Realm Reborn

I think that's all of it.

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>>387557537
Old Tibia + good graphics + crafting + battleye to prevent botters - exiva.

>>387557537
Impactful combat, both FFXIV and GW fail to do so

>>387568828
Congrats, short of DDO, Runescape and FFXI you played all the good ones. You can skip on MMOs entirely for the time being.

>>387568863
Combat in FFXIV is plenty impactful, but only in endgame.

If you are looking for "Action Combat", only Black Desert and Dragon's Digma do it well nowadays.

>>387569059
>Black Desert

God I'm still so pissed about this game. Honestly if they had more armor sets I would play it, it's my biggest fucking issue. I don't want to have to pay real money for outfits. I just want armor that looks different every few levels...

>>387568858
God damn, that shit brings me back to being camped by Russians and BRs.

>>387569201
Its curse is that its Korean.
Korean Grinding, Korean gender locked bullshit, Korean timesink activities, Korean P2W.

And to think its actually SOLD in NA and EU. A game that is buy to play and STILL shoves ridiculous limitations on you.

Think about it.

>>387557537

Say what you want about gw2 but everywhere you go you will always see people, either alone, in small groups, or in zergs doing something.

Occasionally you will find yourself alone but it doesn't last for long, people will always come no matter where you are.

It's one of the things I love about the game and something I haven't seen in the other mmos I've played.

>>387557537
all i can say is make the economy and shit player run. sandbox it somehow. Runescape was really fun before the grand exchange.

>>387565902
>lol take healers out bro, they don't do shit

I always wonder how people can be this stupid

>>387569786
WoW has that these days since it merges people from other servers into the zone you are in if there are not enough people from your server

Doesn't make it a good MMO though

>>387567749
ESO

>>387570110
What needs to be done is everything needs to be player run.

MMOs are tedium. You could streamline it by adding a button that gives you maximum xp in everything, but that defeats the purpose.

It's just like life. The entire goal of life is to die. You can commit suicide, or you can struggle and fight. Humans love struggle.

>>387557537
There is nothing an MMO can offer than other genres cant do better.

The concept of having thousands and thousands in a single instance, whereby people communicate and work together failed utterly.

There is no reason for MMOs to exist

>>387564828
Jesus you sound retarded.

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Anyone ever play this? How is it?

>>387564828
>raids
Raids have nothing to do with MMOs.

They are effectively minigames, attached to an MMO, that has zero baring or purpose other than being a side activity that people do because the MMO part of the game is shit.

>>387557537
What made Silkroad so great? It was my first online game after Diablo 2 but I spent so much time on it and had so much fun.

Listen to the soundtrack, its very nostalgic for me. That Jangan theme or Yangan field theme, damn.

By putting the RPG back in MMORPGs.

But we live in a world where most modern RPGs with decent budgets don't exist, only thinly veiled action adventure or shooter games with RPG elements, so first we need to revive the RPG genre, and the online RPG genre, before we can revive MMOs proper.

The problem right now is a select few developers have any credence in the MMO genre design space, and they're so entwined with MMO bullshit like f2p cash shop models and subscription models and RMT crap that they forget that the main goal should be to make an easily understandable, interactable, and fun RPG experience that happens to take place on a persistant server, but of course all new developers in this scene just copy WOW's shitty systems, like BOP gear, no in game economies, and heavy focus on 'kill the flavor of the month big bad guy" themeparks.

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Can anyone here redpill me on BnS? I'm ban from posting on vg for some reason

I'm interested in social content, getting rare glamour clothing preferably classy or modest, fun dungeons or other kinds of instances to do and meet people
Bns got any of this?

MMOs are ruined by the internet. Anything you don't know about the game can easily be searched and there will be optimal builds or questing routes within days from release

If someone can figure out how to make info like this useless they might be able to make a good MMO

>>387557537
Literally just make another FFXI. It was the perfect MMORPG in it's prime.

>>387557537
Get rid of the shitty fanbase.

horizontal progression instead of vertical progression

like there were items I got in my first year playing FFXI that I still swapped into constantly for several years after

I understand it's really hard to balance things like that instead of just making everything in a new update a few stats bigger than the last update like every single game seems to do now

>>387573119
>A genre defined by online access and players sharing information, strategies, and forming large organizations
>Spoiled by the internet

No, what made MMOs suck is when the genre was turned into an action adventure with optional multiplayer mess.

Look at the big MMOs of today, they're all just streamlined so you -cant- not min-max, I mean WOW forces you to play cookie cutter now-a-days.

>>387559567
boring game.

MMOS can't exist the way they used to be in a post wiki world. You used to interact with people to figure shit out. Now you all have the wiki open in another tab and asking for shit makes you a retard.

Having said that I don't really mind the theme park mmo thing and I think sandbox games are all shitty.

>>387561715
FFxiv ain't terrible, and I'm waiting for Peria Chronicles.

>MMO
>Massive
And what do we get? instanced dungeons, pvp restricted to certain areas, virtually no consequences to player's actions in the game world, etc and etc. In most of these popular games I see people talking about in these threads, a player can hardly affect another one's gameplay unless you allow it.
The massive part is treated more as annoyance than a key feature of the genre, and yet you guys still suck it up and keep on grinding. MMOfags are the biggest cucks.

>>387557537
Only one thing we can do
https://youtu.be/kIvx-fKFwVk

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>>387557537
Streamline everything.

Make playing MMORPGs feel satisfying instead of boring and clunky.

(Also hire some capable writers, please. I am tired of cringing when reading quest texts)

>>387574320
>Writing
>MMOs

MMOs is about living out your own story.

The best MMO stories come from player actions, good writing won't save a bad MMO that is restricted by excessive boring exposition and billions of phasing so players can 'experience' the story being told to them.

>>387574320
>streamline an already causalised genera

>>387574320
>>387574475
That's the problem, everyone have their own personal idea of a "perfect mmo", so no one will ever be happy.

I want a mmo where you're forced to group to exp quickly

>>387574475
I am not talking about walls of text and phasing and bullshit like that, just proper storytelling through gameplay.

>>387574494
I didn't say anything about making it easy.

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>>387557537
Is the nip right, /v/?

>>387574730
And you don't need writers for that, you need turbonerds who know how to gamemaster a RPG.

World building and storytelling are two very different things and most writers are simply storytellers and terrible world builders.

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>>387557537
The Best MMO is almost 20 years old yet it's still on top. Too bad the pay to win kronos system ruins the experience a bit.

>>387574772
No, he's wants to make a co-op game, what he wants to do is -terrible- in the MMO design space due to the sacrafices you need to make for server performance.

>>387574973
>World building and storytelling are two very different things

That's where you are wrong though.
They are inherently entangled disciplines.
Which is why it is imperative that writers and game designers work together very closely.

>>387574730
>Streamline classes
Removes options to make it easy because, who wants to put one point into everything with no real build plan and suck? That isn't fair.
>Streamline fights
Fights have just been too complicated and it just takes too long for the average player to win fights, so we gave them handy warning sounds, highlighted aoe areas, and if they do start to take damage, they get knocked into a safe zone, this way grouping wont take forever to finish the run!
>Streamline leveling
We felt it wasn't fair to new players to need to grind to hit max level, and who gives a shit about all the hard work and effort put into lower level content? Now everyone starts at max level!

>Implying streamlining an MMO has ever not meant making it easier

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>>387575121

>>387575121
You can build worlds without telling stories, in fact its better for MMO design space to -not- tell stories, or else you get clusterfucks of mismatched lore like how WOW has to retcon every single expansion to explain where the big bad guy came from out of nowhere.

>>387575160
That's not my understanding of streamlining.

Streamlining means cutting out things that are unnecessary (serve no purpose) and optimizing game-flow.

Dark Souls 3 was pretty streamlined for example and very enjoyable while still being reasonably challenging.

>>387575232
Nice rebuttal.

>>387575267
>You can build worlds without telling stories

You can, it's just not particularly interesting to many RPG players (myself included).

If I don't want any story at all I just play Quake or something.

>>387575072
No, turning mmo into second job you have to play 24h/7d to stay on top was the original huge mistake.

Make it possible to scam people again.

>>387567749
Final Fantasy XI. They added a system where you can summon NPCs to fill out the rest of your party slots.

>>387574772
this is a good philosophy, great in theory but in practice people are too shit to 'enjoy' new updates with

>>387576346
Fuck that, just play on a lv75 cap private server.

>>387575797
Except that his design philosophy isn't made for a subscription based MMORPG, he could easily have made FFXIV a co-op multiplayer RPG and it would have likely done much much better then the initial launch of the shitty game that was FFXIV, or are we trying to forget that they pretty much did a hardreset and turned the game into a WOW clone because his model simply doesn't work.

You're right, turning a game into a job is -never- fun, or good for the game, which is why people are leaving modern MMOs that follow the WOW formula, but FFXIV is in the same boat as WOW clones now, its not the original vision of the game.

>>387576650
75 cap private servers are only like single player experiences in that the servers are so dead that it'll feel like you're playing a single player game; the gameplay still requires group play.
The guy wanted an MMO he could actually play in a single player way, and the current FFXI with Trust Magic fits that perfectly.

>>387567482
It's so easy to pick out the 2004 WoW-Babbys

Why do people think that WoW is still good?

>>387577376
They only played WoW or WoW clones, thus they have no other reference point to assess MMOs.

>>387576792
>did a hardreset and turned the game into a WOW clone because his model simply doesn't work
He wasn't even on the dev team during the original XIV catastrophe; he was only brought in afterwards to clean up that mess. The guy running the original failure was the same guy that ran FFXI for years and was wholly subscribed to the "play the game like a job" school of design.

>>387559567

NO CONTENT THE GAME.

Though it's an extremely interesting social experiment. Basically some Chinese gold selling guilds are taking over the entire game world. Access to what is functionally unlimited currency in a game where gold buys you literally everything gets you unlimited power.

A few giant guilds have been attritioned into the dust. Gold Farmers just constantly zerg nodes with the best equipment, while the other guilds run out of money and materials to fight them (gear and shit breaks when people die or gets whisked away by the gold farmers). Every node they get allows them to generate resources faster which means more money for them, so there is a huge incentive for them to take over as much of the world as possible.

The rage and helplessness of the community combined with the retardation of the devs is a sight to behold.

>>387557537
Let the genre die.

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>>387561209
F

>>387563940
>>387564865
City of Heroes handled it pretty well.
DPS was nothing more than DPS, did a lot of damage with no real depth beyond knowing what needs to be hit first.
Support archetypes could choose between a bunch of possible combos
>CC + debuffs
>CC + buffs
>CC + dps
>debuffs + dps
>buffs + dps
>buffs + pseudotank
>debuffs + pseudotank
Debuffs were extremely strong and let the support archetypes put out the same and sometimes more DPS than the actual DPS, and debuffs also stacked when coming from multiple players. A full team of debuffing supports could breeze through content with both insane DPS and tanking capabilities by just debuffing the living shit out of the enemy's accuracy.

>>387574772
This works for me. I play mmos for 1 or 2 months a year till the itch is gone.

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>>387557537
You can't, the community is dead and people are more self centered and rude than they were back then.

Remember when those max leveled dudes would run you through a dungeon, helping you get that item you wanted or to finish a quest? And all they asked in return was for you to repay the favor one day by helping someone else in turn?

That type of community is what made MMOs great. No amount of gameplay or innovation can fill the experiences of bonding with your fellow players.

It's time to move on.

>>387578080

The biggest flaw with modern MMOs is the quest for BALANCE rather than just useful niches to be filled. Everyone needs to feel like a super special snowflake now a days.

And a side effect is the only thing any class can bring to the table is the amounts of DEEPS, HEEPS, and MEAT they bring to the table. It makes everything fucking boring, do you like shooting fireballs or hitting things with a club. The only difference is 3% more damage.

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>try MMORPG
>just want to grind mobs in a party
>see 1-2 players max every hour
>non of them want to party
I JUST WANT FRIENDS

>>387578272
No.

People didn't change. MMO design changed. Other people are no longer worth helping, because another player is literally worth NOTHING. Every other player is completely dispensable. You don't NEED to help other players when the game automatically throws you into groups with people from other servers you'll never speak to again in your life.

WoW killed MMOs.

>>387578473
WoW absolutely killed MMO's. The game was decent form the start, and than they simplified it with Burning Crusade.

WoW today is just an abortion yet millions still play trying to fill the void of social anxiety.

>>387578473

WoW didn't kill MMOs. Time did. Video games just became a more common thing, the average computer advanced to the point where a game like WoW was playable without any sort of extra hardware.

This led to normies flooding games, and normies are shitty people. MMOs decided to try to cater to these people and simply couldn't. Normies still don't want to sink hundreds of hours in a game and MMO fans find shit shallow and constantly gated by artificial time blocks. Reguardless it worked out for a while, until MOBAs became common place.

>>387578739
Yea WoW catered to the normies with burning crusades and it killed MMO's.

>>387578739
What the fuck are you talking about? EQ, UO, DaoC, FFXI, etc did not require some super computer to run.

World of Warcraft, with a huge built in audience from Warcraft 3. led casuals to the MMO genre, not computers magically being able to run MMOs suddenly.

>>387578943
WoW catered to the normies with vanilla.

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>>387561209

MMOs were never great.

>>387579101
>7 years in development
>still 7 years out from release

Everytime they show the game it looks like they've taken 1 step forward and 2 steps back in progress.

>>387566239
Crazy that PSO2 has NOTHING in common with the original.

For all intents and purposes, it's a perfect game.

>>387579067
Vanilla WoW did not cater to Normies, it was challenging and further expansions brought raids that expanded the difficulty, Burning Crusades reset the difficulty and made it normie friendly.

>>387575232
Are those eye lashes? Is that a girl skeleton?

>>387557537
I went back to WoW on a Burning Crusade private server and I realised the things I enjoyed about the game.
>Professions have distinct benefits and exclusive gear/resources they can acquire
>Since resource nodes are limited, they're actually valuable
>Player run auction house, economy is player driven
>Your labour is actually worth something because the price isn't automatically regulated
>No fucking in-game premium currency
>Each class had things it could do and couldn't do, meaning everyone had their niche to fill
>You had to go out of your way to meet other people and put in effort if you wanted to jump into a dungeon, not just queue up
>You can get gear that isn't just stat increases, but which have completely unique effects like Quagmirran's Eye
>Looting being tied to whoever hits something first encourages people to party up
>Stuff like silver elite mobs encourages exploration because you might find something really cool in an obscure part of a map
>Distinct feeling of becoming stronger when entering maps below your level

While everything takes ages to do, it actually feels rewarding and like what you're doing is worthwhile. However, the flip side of this is that everything takes an extremely long time to do. People just don't have the time or patience for an MMO which requires you to put in a lot of time to get anywhere. It's all about that instant gratification these days.

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>>387574772
Should drop the price if he's expecting us to not main the game. Don't see how the new mount campaign will keep people subbed if mounts contribute nothing to actual game play. People get more out of the glamour system and they canned that sub incentive.

>>387558850
Eve online tries to do this and its low population shows people want faster pace gameplay.
Except you can't do that and be delay friendly, which is necessary with one server and latency problems.

>>387579578
Uhhh not him but WoW was always the normie MMO. The only people who would doubt this must have not played any other MMOs.

Don't put such an emphasis on endgame content, and get rid of queues.

>>387580582
My nigga, I had a Quagmirran's Eye and Blade of Wizardy on my Fire Mage before SSC/TK was released, by far my favorite items. 1.56 second cast fireballs were great

>the current MMO genre is so shit that fucking Guild Wars 2 is the best one available

how did this happen?