How do we fix the MMO trinity?

Make everyone cute girls.

There is literally nothing wrong with the formula. It works for what it's needed for.

If you want to get rid of it, make a game that won't require such a setup.

>>387353348
Taking the RO route: hyper-specialized classes

>>387353407
with cat paws, tail and ears!!!

What's there to fix? It's called the holy Trinity for a reason. It just works. If one role is missing then the entire Trinity fails and if another role is added then the game design and loot system suffers.

More specialized roles but keep the trinity in tact. DPS that specialize more in support buffs or off-healing. Healers that heal via damage dealt. Tanks with unique mechanics like summoning minions to tank for them or evasion.

The trinity is literally perfect but the roles could be more exciting.

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There really isnt a way to.
if you add a support role then it HAS to be good enough to justify not bringing another dps
Make it not good enough, then it wont be worth bringing
Make it too good, then its the only thing anyone bothers with

>>387353348
get rid of it completely

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You make it interesting and don't give into standard MMO conventions.

add in tech

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>>387353348
You don't.

Any game with number crunch combat will come down to this unless you slap diminishing returns on multiple abilities of the same type.

>>387353348
An alternative is to make it so that every class than do all 3 at once, if they select the right skills.

>>387353348
>Implying you need a dedicated healer in FFXIV when red mage is enough

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my work here is done

It's too simple.

We need to go back to bomber/buffer/mana battery/puller/tank/healers or at the very least steal from dnd 4e and move to leader/controller/defender/striker.

>>387354107
inb4 "SORCERERS MAKE SHITTY TANKS STOP TAKING THEM" and "WARRIOR WORST HEALER 2018"

>>387354178
I've never played a game where this wasn't underwhelming.

>>387354107
Make it like Monster Hunter or PSO where everyone can tank/heal/dps on their character through itemization and getting gud.

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Is Chinese Todd Howard right about modern MMOs?

>>387354178

I mean, this is basically monster hunter.

And that works great.

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Final Fantasy XI, despite all it's flaws, did it fine. They had parties of 6 and several jobs that could do multiple roles along with support classes. You obviously needed tanks and heals for a successful party but you had members that didn't have any role in the traditional trinity but were more than useful.

And of course FFXIV had to (eventually) become a WoW clone.

>>387354360
No, MMOs shouldn't exist at all. They offer literally nothing.

>>387353525
No paws, shit's way too furry.

>>387354321
Those aren't MMOs. They're multiplayer action games with a lobby.

>>387354321
>Tank
>PSO

what

>>387354426
Does MH have iframe dodges?

I'm up to killing my third Ziggistardust and I can't tell.

>>387354360
what the fuck is he talking about? Asians are videogame junkies that rather kill their children to play some WoW.

>>387354360
He's right that modern MMOs have to be less about poopsocking. The people with money (normies) dont have the time to wait months just to level up slow or grind NMs like in FFXI.

>>387354629
I don't imagine those types of players are long term subscribers.

>>387354549
>They're multiplayer action games with a lobby
What's the difference between wow or FFXIV where people afk in a lobby town and go into instances with 4-5 people

>>387354589
They do but the frame is incredibly small and can't really be used outside of frame-perfect shit.
You can have skills that increase your i-frames and makes dodging through shit more viable.

>>387354589
yes
thing is default is like 2 frames so unless you use evasion skills you arent going to roll through most shit without being incredibly good or lucky

>>387354760
>afk in a lobby town
Because they can (technically) have hundreds of players in one area as opposed to MH which only has 4 in a lobby??

>>387354461
FFXIV had to become what it is because the FFXI formula completely falls apart when the server population dwindles. That's why you can solo the most of XI now with AI party members.

>>387354760
FFXIV's lobbies are bigger and more elaborate. Also, more diverse instanced content and social features.

>>387354762
>>387354589
Yes. Also i-frame is plenty big like 0.2 second without anything. You can it on short hitboxes easily, just don't ram yourself into a fucking hipcheck that lasts 2 seconds and a bit.

>>387354879
PSO can have hundreds of people in a lobby too and MH copied PSO.

>>387354589

Yeah all the rolls have pretty tight i-frame windows but you can extend them with certain armor skills making them more viable.

In Generations you also use "adept" style which exchanges your i-frames for activation frames which trigger a special dodge animation where you're briefly invulnerable and can usually follow up with special attacks

>>387354640
Yeah I would love to raid seriously again but the sheer amount of time required every week for wow just makes it impossible in wow at least.

>>387354939
doesnt MHF have like evasion +450 by now

>>387354360
WoW has done that shit since BC, nothing new about that design. Though alot of mmos fail because they don't realize this as truth adn think the ship is sinking when for a year of no new updates players leave in mass and the game officially dies and the devs fuck off to a new project instead of injecting new life into it.

>>387353525
and a dick

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>>387354762
>>387354817
>>387354939
Sweet. Should I hunt down evasion skills for GS? I haven't had this much fun since I first ran into Demon's Souls.

>>387355137
You can use them but GS doesn't benefit much from it since it's super mobile normally.
If you're a Lancer however you can pretty much just i-frame through shit for like 5 straight seconds and it's hilarious.

>>387353348
One problem is that PVE content (not counting dungeons and raids of course) is all DPS. There are no quests that truly play to the strengths of tanks or healers, it's just "kill x mob for y."

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>>387355225
Greatsword's are considered super mobile?

I've got a ways to go.

>>387355137
Evade uppers on GS isn't typical or terribly ideal. Most the time you're rolling right after you attack anyways. Problem with GS is that you're kinda forced to prioritize the classics and generally left with not a lot of room for QoL skills
>crit draw
>focus
>sharpness +1 if applicable
>quick sheathe/readiness
>attack uppers

>>387355396
What's stopping you from mass pulling enemies as a tank or using crowd control and offensive mitigation as a healer?

>>387353348
Keep the trinity as is, but put a bigger emphasis on the utility and support skills DPS provide.

>>387354360
I feel it would be more valid if they weren't charging a monthly fee during the downtime.

>>387355426
With the right skillset (critdraw, focus, quicksheathe) GS gets most of its damage from unsheathe attacks, meaning that you're going to be running around with your weapon sheathed most of the time waiting for opportunities to strike.

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>>387355225

>Evasion +3 on Lance in MH4

>>387355426
It's more that there is no real GS plays that are considered useful besides sprinting around and unsheathing/charge unsheathing when you see opening then going into another charge or slap and charge when the opening is longer.

You are mostly sprinting around and not sticking to the monsters.

>>387355426
Very much, yes.
>but this huge fucking thing makes me walk slow
GS play is
>be sheathed
>get into position
>charge draw attack
>hit
>roll
>sheathe
>get into position...
"Combo GS" is fucking terrible, don't do that. Play LS or SA if you like walking around swinging big sharp objects

>>387355645
>Pay $13 once
>Play all the content there is in 30 days
>Sub runs out and you play other shit until more content is added

Never understood the mentality of people that pays every single month. Why would you keep paying if you already done everything relevant to you?

>>387353927
this

>>387355645
I think he's telling you to quit during the downtime.

>>387355761
would chaining triple charges be fine on downed/trapped stuff or shoudl you sheathe and do another draw charge

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Would you guys like an MMO like this?
>Classic Trinity
>Skills are items
>Each character can learn a number of skills
>Classes are there but they provide passive buffs/traits that promotes the use of a category of skills (like: Warrior, when it deals physical damage does X, so you'll use physical damage abilitiues mostly, or Sage, healing over time are much more effective than instant heals etc.)
>Classes and skills can be changed any time in lobby/city like XIV mostly
>gear can also be highly customizable, think an improved version of WoW's old reforge
To limit customization a little and reduce chaos you can also add Element type to each skill, so some classes cannot use some Elements (Pyromancer cannot use Water and Ice skills), or some of them are improved (Fire skills on Pyromancer would do additional effects).
Would be chaotic to balance for the devs tho

>>387354629
I think that's the point of what he's talking about.

>>387356049
There is literally no point in having "builds" in any game over just having static classes.

>>387356049
>skills are items
I'm not sure I follow. If you mean skills can be bought and traded like items, I can see that working.

>>387356006
You should only keep sheathing when you have crit draw skill and if you dont just keep chaining them

>>387356345
>I'm not sure I follow. If you mean skills can be bought and traded like items, I can see that working.
Yes. It means they can be obtained with quests, dungeons or whatever, can also be traded or sold to other players.
>There is literally no point in having "builds" in any game over just having static classes.
If you mean that "players will just stick to the best builds", then yes that's a problem. You could avoid that by making challenging PvE content that requires some kind of switch in skills, either because of the encounter or raid/team composition.
For PvP this is not a problem, meta builds would show up, just like anti-meta ones to counter them, and players would start trying to counter these ones too etc..

>>387356229
You are the reason why gaming is dead.

>>387356006
Chaining is better on stationary targets. Bonus points if you draw -> slap -> overhead -> finisher just before the monster gets up/away. I do recall seeing an old Jhen speedrun where a single GS user would unsheathe, roll, sheathe, and repeat but that was Tri

>>387354107
Classless systems are impossible to balance. The community will always find the best way to deal damage, the best way to mitigate damage and the base way to recuperate.

We're thinking about this the wrong way. As long as content depends on reducing an enemy's HP to 0, minmaxing for damage is the only real consideration for players. The question should be: how do we create content that doesn't necessarily need the trinity?

remove healers and tanks
remove the "Aggro" system and make all content based around skillful action combat with tons of dodging/blocking

the only categories now are DPS, DPS with minor healing ability, and Tanky DPS

>>387354178
too bad pso2 sucks

>>387356808
You described GW2 and it's one of the worst MMOs ever created

>>387356654
Nice non-argument.

>>387356919
>GW2
>tons of dodging/blocking

>>387353493
That's what he's asking nob. How do we make a mmo that doesnt require it

>>387356972
Yes.

>no one posted the doujin version

Remove tanks

Make a game with just dps and healers

>>387353348
Remove tank and dps. Meld them together. Force parties to divide monsters between themselves and actually communicate

>>387356919
>"You described BDO and it's one of the worst MMOs ever created"

Ftfy

>>387356969
I don't see any argument on your side either.

Is it because everyone just picks the best build anyway? Because then the system is obviously flawed if everyone can agree on one build that is the best for every situation.

>>387354461
It did fine for the time. 14 was that and nearly destroyed square a second time

Make combat that doesn't revolve around numbers.

weak spots, dynamic attacks

Make everything one class, but instead of just clicking "Warrior, Mage, Priest" when you create your character, give everyone the same abilities and let them use them the way the want to.

>>387357261
BDO would be pretty good with mobs that aren't just punching bags.
So it's not really a matter of trinity/no-trinity.

>>387353950
then apparently you make a sequel that sucks ass and ruins everything good about the first one

removing healers and building sustain into class kits, allowing you to fuck up only so many times without dying. Skyforge did this and it was a good feature. their supoort roles were buff bitches, and if they could heal, they couldnt heal enough to matter.

The healer role is a crutch for bads, those who play it and get saved by it.

>>387357343
>Because then the system is obviously flawed if everyone can agree on one build that is the best for every situation.
It's unavoidable.

>>387356919
GW2 has millions of players and is getting another successful expansion in a month, it must be doing something right

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Destiny did it the best and they're doing it even better in Destiny 2

Copy d&d 4e. I mean people call it a tabletop mmo for a reason*

Expand trinity to be
Tank
Dps
Leader (in charge of buffs and heals)
Controller (debuffs and cc)

And have every class able to choose a secondary role. So you have fighters which are tank primary and dps secondary, and clerics which can be healer/tank or healer/controller, for example

*the reason is memes

>>387357474
>weak spots, dynamic attacks
Have fun keeping your servers up with all that information coming out of every attack.

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>>387354178
this guy knows whats up

>>387353348

the trinity is tank healer mez, faggit

>>387353348
make tanks and healers optional
more reliance on mechanical skill than pattern execution

>>387357689
nice try, shill

>>387357679
>another successful expansion

>>387357679
>it has millions of players! no really!

its pretty balanced in ffxiv

the more I get into end game raiding the more I realize how much healers and tanks go out of their way for dps.

>>387357689
You fix the trinity by having all the classes play the same and not have any synergy? Interesting.

>>387356725
Tri didn't have the follow up swing after the super charge move. IIRC the follow up swing does a crazy amount of damage, more than I expected when I looked it up.

>>387357671
Nah it's not, WoW is just terrible at it.
Character building is literally the central aspect of RPGs.

>>387357343

If you have a game where the only goal is to reduce boss health to zero while keeping most of the group alive, then you will tend to have a few "meta" builds that do the best at single target, multitarget, burst, etc, and a whole bunch of builds that aren't used because they aren't the best. On the other hand, you can have things like the Instructor Razuvious fight in Naxx that required a specific class to complete, but then every group has to bring that class.

I still want another game like the original Star Wars Galaxies where there were tons of things to do that weren't just combat and you could mix and match a character together, but I'd guess it would end up the same way since nobody wants to raid with someone who decided to take a build with less DPS so they could have some sick dance moves.

>>387353348
>How do we fix the MMO trinity?

We don't, it works perfectly fine when it's enforced.

It's shit when you have a situation like you do in WoW where tanks can also deal dmg and heal, dps can heal, healers can deal dmg etc.

>>387357159
I actually like it. I thought the system to remove trinity would just be splitting classes based on attack type by going Melee/Ranged/Magic/Utility, where melee has the most abilities that help surviving on top of biggest damage (of course depends on the precise melee class) and try to shield everyone else, then ranged is there to deliver secondary constant DPS but is mostly focused on dodging if the enemy gets aggro on them, while magic is there for AoE and crowd control and gets fucked over with aggro on them, same with utility except you heal and debuff.

>>387357071
Why bother making it an MMO then if everyone can do everything?

>>387353348
this kind of thing is why american players are so ass at things. That is not a trinity. That's misinformation.

DPS stalls healer. Healer does not beat tank. Tank loses to health build and nothing else. Tank and DPS shouldn't even be meeting out there.

Y'all dumb.

Pro-Tip: This guy is serious!

#EchoFox

>>387354760
There isn't much a difference. Really the only difference is that most of those games have irrelevant open world bosses that can override those instance limits like in BDO. In fact BDO is more "MMO" than those games. BDO is really fucking boring though and has nothing to do besides that and fishing.

>>387353520
>cards gave you skills from other classes
>magnum break priest

good times.

>>387357876
>>387358028
Confirmed for never playing it. True, the classes are all mainly dps/support but they support in different ways enough to make each useful. And these different support roles really shine the brightest in the raids.

>>387354461
>>387354895
>>387357418
Are FFXI babies still butthurt XIV is the most popular MMO in this past decade?
See >>387354071

Would FFXI have gotten this successful with its archaic gameplay and mechanics? Yeah right. Sub counts don't lie and Square is rolling in money. Just sub to XIV already.

>>387359406
WoW is more popular than XIV is still though moron

>>387353348
How about a game that doesn't use HP/damage reduction as a primary resource? Why not make player choices more important that stats and whoever runs out of numeric salsa first?

Shooting games with RPG mechanics tend to do this a little.

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>>387359469
It's only a matter of time before XIV surpasses it. WoW is quickly losing popularity.

>>387353862
crowd control roles can be very important.

But crowd control is usually outsourced to the tank or sometimes DPS.

>>387359614
gw2 is right behind it wtf

>>387359672
gw2 is free to play and buy 2 play. not really comparable to a subscription only mmo.

>>387359614
>It's only a matter of time before XIV surpasses it
XIVfags have been saying that for years. Nobody wants to play your catboy ERP simulator.

>>387359469
lol you think wow has more than half a million subs right now? they dont even have 350k
xiv continues to beat sub records every month
>>387359672
>reddit
what does sub numbers on reddit have to do with actual players
>>387359823
its already beating it you fucking tard
wow only has around ~300k players across all regions when xiv has twice that amount

>>387359918
>wow only has around ~300k players across all regions when xiv has twice that amount
where is the proofs?????

>>387353348

remove auto attack
each projectile is a slow moving orb (depends on buffs etc) visualy big enough
every attack is clearly telegraphed via animations and aoe circles (or whatever shapes) on the ground
make combat slow and technical
some kind of dodge is a requirement as is a selfheal option, being it on cooldown or a caped maximum amount of uses
basicly dark souls but optimized for teh technical aspects of an mmo

>>387355013
I spend 1 day gathering mats for pots and food and another day for legendary runs. Then my guild raids are 2 days. How do you not have 4 days out of 7 to play?

>>387360212
so shit
the only good "action mmo" i ever played was warframe because you could go fast and the whole game was built around going fast

change it to melee, ranged, and support.

Melee don't use threat. Instead they use hit-stun, pulls, and charges chase-down targets to prevent enemies from harming allies, and stands next to contested objectives.
Ranged have slightly better dps than melee, but are more focused on taking down high-priority targets, targets that would be out of easy reach for melee, and being able to stay by an objective/powerup while attacking somewhat distant enemies.
Support would be focused on buffs, debuffs, healing, making obstacles/powerups, and have a costly/difficult revive.

>>387360365

its not even an mmo, its just a coop shooter but i aggree, current action mmos are shit because of some shitty synergies nobodys asking for autoattacks that deal insane amount of damage shitting all over everyone adding basicly nothing to the game and stupid af ai that only beats you in reaction time.

>>387353525
>>387353407

FFXIV is literally this with lizardgirls and a few edgelords here and there

>>387353348
No need, it's pretty balanced right now. Sometimes there are additional hybrid classes like buffer/debuffer, heal+buffer, heal+debuffer, heal+dd(sup DCP from wow), dd+buffer, tank+debuffer etc. They might spice up things, but it still would be within this triangle. Because you need whole new battle system to include something, that wouldn't be just some gimmick. Or completely remove aggro on tanks, when survivability characters would be oriented on just doing damage, while squishy rouges and mages would need to do some maneuvers/cast shields, but still would be able to do more damage, but only if they got skill.

>>387357602
the sequel got rid of it and that is it's main problem

>>387353348
Tree of savior kills that trinity.

>>387353348
make every classic the same

>>387360679
This sounds so gay. Never design a game, my dude.

>>387353348
You don't
You just rescale MMOs from 5 person groups to 3 person groups and change raids to 9 person groups that require 3 of each role.

>>387353348
get rid of in-combat healing

give everyone regenerating health like in fps

>>387354589
Yes. They're very small and the chances of you using those iframes on a normal roll on purpose are very slim especially if you're new. I've managed to roll through a few attacks and a roar once or twice, but never really on purpose
Super Man dive has an assload of iframes, though

>>387360010
log in to the highest population retail WoW server then log in to the highest population retail FFXIV server

WoW server is almost ghost town like

>>387353407
Tera did this and now they're sitting on loads of money.

>>387353348
Real support classes. Reduce cooldowns, debuff enemies, buff friendly dps, etc. There are lots of potential uses, decisions made on when to buff whom (stop giving the DPS reduced cooldowns when the tank is fucking dying because he can't be healed fast enough)

>>387353348
nothing wrong with it, that's why WoW and FFXIV are the most successful MMOs ever.

I thought up of a cool class called a buffing class

They're support like healers but they cast buffs on people that last like 30 seconds before running out and need to be added again

Each buff was a little minigame, like a maze or crane game that popped up in a small window and you had to do these minigames to buff people while also avoiding fire and doing boss mechanics

y/n?

>>387357071
You don't. GW2 tried and failed hard. While it's still popular enough and it's free, the system is zerg at it's core.

The trinity continues to exist because it works the best. If you remove healing and/or tanks you remove bosses and mechanics being threatening.

It then becomes nothing is a threat ever or where you just die, hit the close respawn, run back and continue to zerg into the boss till death.

Don't have to like the trinity, but nothing has yet to prove better.

Make a fourth role, utility, which specialises in all forms of crowd control and buffing. Make the game require it, and make the classes of this role have gear which scales (INT or CHA makes CC last longer etc.)
The holy trinity is now the holy quad

>>387362271
dumb and unnecessary

>>387362271
well yeah if it required something only a support could provide like purging dots or debuffs, or interrupting spells on bosses. You're kind of just taking elements that the trinity could have just spread out on the regular roles though.

>>387362219
>>387357071
>>387353493
>>387353348
Are you people really this dense

Yes, you can get rid of it, by making everything collision based. Like Monster Hunter, Phantasy Star, etc. Supports can still exist (i.e. Hunting Horn) but they wouldn't be mandatory, and the damage offset would actually matter. Trinity is the only system that works for braindead tab target combat.

>>387357757
It's honestly a crime that we never got a trpg using the 4e ruleset

Vanguard still had the holy trinity, but you had some really interesting classes that didn't exactly fit perfectly into that trinity, but were still viable. You had blood mages that healed through damage to mobs or themselves, disciples that were a physical monk like healer, psionicist that was a heavy CC and buffing mage. I really want another game where I can be a psionicist, hoping Pantheon can capture a bit of that feeling.

Dedicated buff/debuff class

>>387363619
>boss is immune to all debuffs except normal dots

The whole combat and ecounters need to be designed around being fully soloable without any armor with only time being a factor.

No auto attack
clearly telegraphed attacks/aoe circles for every attack
ability to avoid damage as long as the fight last through clever resource management akin to endurance or stamina bar and dodges
being locked in animation which in turns removes floatiness plaguing most action mmos
content scaling for 5 players or more
remove cooldowns
clearly telegraphed, slow traveling projectiles
gamepad support/centric

I guess throw it in the trash and make an action game.

Then to make group content interesting add mechanics that need coordination rather than having everyone just independently dodge. Wildstar's stun armor is a potential example of such a mechanic.

>>387357071
By making an mmo that isn't focused on raiding and combat.

>>387361462
too late