What is the best class-based shooter ever made, and why is it TF2?

Because it's the most fun.

>>387131560
>10 years of refinement
>had good original design
>built from good concepts from the good era of shooters

Were there any other class-based shooters to really compete with, not including recent MOBA based stuff like OW? Only one off the top of my head is the Xbox Conker multiplayer, but to say they competed is absurd.

Bf2

>>387131789
Fair enough, but what about the argument that TF2 is the best shooter ever made?

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>>387131560
Stop right there

>>387131560
Back when the scout was supposed to have the SMG as a secondary. Shit would be OP.

>>387132101
the pistol is basically a smg

>>387132209
Only with the accuracy of a sprinkler.

>>387132101
I'm glad he got a pistol, gave him some rhythm.

>>387131560
>>387131651
Imagine how great TF2 could be right now if the devs and Valve actually cared and didn't shoot the game in it's own face, several fucking times.

>>387132261
But what if my sprinkler is super accurate.

>>387132209
Was about to say this

>>387132287
I think you are talking about a water hose in that case.

>>387132276
It's a shame the cosmetics went absolute bananas and ruined the original art style. But I think the gameplay only improved since launch. They STILL haven't nerfed demoman though.

>yesterday launch the game for the first time in around 2 years
>all of the servers I used to play on are dead
>in fact pretty much all non-valve servers are dead
>go in a matchmaking server and fuck around as demoknight and huntman sniper
>end up causing 2 people on the other team to ragequit somehow because I kept killing them

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>Being this wrong

TONIGHT'S THE NIGHT

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>>387132276
It's so fucking infuriating. TF2 is one of the best shooter games of all time, it's like a drug to me. OW and other shooters just don't cut it. And it's not just TF2, but CS:GO as well. Valve would rather jack off at VR and their new card games rather than refine one of the best games of all time.

>>387132528
Never ever ;_;
on the 18th of august or on tf2's 10th birthday

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It's not fair.

>>387132276
I mean think about it this way

With the way Valve works, as a developer, would you choose to work on an almost 10-year-old game whose playerbase is constantly complaining about the insane balance issues that arise when there are nine classes and basically limitless combinations of weapon customization, spotty code work by dozens of different devs over ten years, and a dwindling playerbase

OR

Work on the futuristic new technology that is VR and probably change gaming history (as Valve tends to do), develop new updates for literally tens of millions of players for CS:GO or Dota 2, or whatever the fuck other cool stuff Valve has in the works (Artifact, I guess?).

I think we're lucky to even still have a dev team after this long

>>387132407

Yeah, it is a shame, but you know I gotta have those hats nigga

Also fucking pyro needs to be completely reworked

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>>387131560
>>387132276
>>387132570
>Valve pissing on one of the best online shooters of all time in the name of experimentation

>>387132705
Pyro's main problem there's just way too many ways to extinguish your teammates now.
To make it a formidable close-quarter class like it was initially planned to be, they need to either drastically boost the direct damage of the flamethrower, but such direct buff would need a really fine tuning. Or to make the afterburn effect a real threat. Maybe give pyro napalm grenades that coat enemies in inextinguishable flames or something.

>>387132712
see
>>387132705

>>387132705
Spy as well. He's pretty much useless at high-level play.

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>>387131560

>>387132659
>want to hate it
>frankly just curious what the fuck a valve-made game would look like in 2018

>>387132996
It's not a matter of the amount of devs, you dunce.
The point is that for a long time, TF2 was basically Valve's shitpool for when they wanted to try something, make a halfassed implementation and then (maybe) do it properly in Dota or CS:GO.

>>387132986
Yeah, Pyro players seem to be one of the two extremes, one being they are shit and just hold M1 on the capture point and are useless, the other being the fuckers that launch you into the sky and fucking annihilate everything in their path

Valve's gotta find the middleground somehow

>>387133129
I have nothing against valve producing games again but tf2 is being overrun by renabots and nobody seems to give a shit.

>>387132705
It's not about active development and caring, at one point the game was just fine the way it was, it could have just stayed the same with no major updates for years and the players would have carried it.

Some would argue cosmetics and f2p ruined the game, but that's bullshit, the game was truly ruined by everything after end of the line, especially Valve's attempt to turn it into CS:GO with weapon skins and all the bullshit they shoved down everyone's throat since gun mettle

>>387132986
Pyro was so nerfed he's practically useless, the only thing he can still do better than the other classes is spycheck, and even then, Icicle and dead ringer means he's still just as useless.

Remember when you could huff and buff?, when you could take almost any class in the game?

>>387132036
Best FPS to date

>>387133154
You have a point, but isn't this true of all Valve games?

They all take concepts that work from one game and implement it into another. Cases in point: crate-and-key system, casual and competitive matchmaking, Source 2, the free-to-play model, cooperative "operations" or whatever you want to call them - the list goes on.

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*dies to Lolpods 5 seconds later*

>>387133367
Eh, I still think the ability to reflect incoming projectiles and push back ubers is really, really strong. The problem is - it's as far removed from what the class was SUPPOSED to do as possible.

>>387133124
was tfc the last game to die with dignity? as opposed to awful corporate decisions or awful patches

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>>387133394
>we will never have a worthy successor

>>387133859
i mean i guess css isn't totally dead quite yet, but the last memories i have of that game are good ones even though i stopped playing years ago

>>387132276
There already is a game like that and it's called Team Fortress 2 Classic.

>>387133173
But you just described amazing design faggot
>no skill, no kills
>lots of skill, everyone dies
this is what every class should be. perfect balance. the only problem is that pyro is useless even with high skill if your opponents are also high skill

>>387134621
And it has no player base. The problem I have with tf2 isn't the balance, it's that the players are brain dead.
The unlocks are a fun distraction.

I hate it but I think is the genre
When you do well is because the rest of your team is good
When you get steam rolled is because the rest of your team is bad

Never feels like how good you are really matters
And its an unbalanced mess

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>>387132276
>in it is own face
Opinion discarded

>>387134023
Why even live

Tribes 2 and QWTF. Fuck TF2

>>387135337
>QWTF
I refuse to believe this. I refuse you've even TRIED to play QWTF and you're just posing for /v/ cred.
The game is as dead as a dodo.

>>387135494
There's games every week for MegaTF. Either way TF2 was always shit.

>>387132407
>They STILL haven't nerfed demoman though.
Yes they have you fucking retard. Do you not remember the community pissing and whining about it? Demo's been nerfed umpteen times since release.

It's not that Demo needs to be nerfed. It's that Pyro, Spy, and (offensively) Heavy and Engie need to be buffed.
Demo is a balanced class.

>>387135575
>There's games every week for MegaTF
Once weekly? So: dead.
>Either way TF2 was always shit
Except it fucking isn't, you dumb fuck. It's the best game on the market.
What exactly do you think being a contrarian is going to achieve?

>>387135769
Dead but still better than shitty TF2. If you weren't underage you'd remember other people feeling the same way when it came out and attempts to remake TFC like Fortress Forever.

>>387135607
The ONLY significant demo nerf was when they cut his primary ammo down to 4 from 6. The stickies are still overpowered on-demand kills. Stickies should only be used for traps, not as some guided missiles you just shoot to attack the enemy players directly. That's what the grenade launcher should be used for.
Basically the stock sticky launcher should be replaced with scottish resistance.

>>387135769
Nah it's crap.

>>387135958
They nerfed stickies blast radius down to a rockets and even further while they're in the air, how is that not significant?

>>387135337
>CTF games about suiciding for the flag over and over are more fun than games about actually fighting
Whatever you nostalgiafags gotta tell yourselves.

>>387136132
Didn't they revert that after demobabies threw a tantrum? I think they only "nerfed" the full damage in the entire blast aoe. So now it gradually decreases with the distance from the center.
But then again, it's been years since I last played.

>>387135958
>Garbage damage fall-off
>Blast radius equal to a rocket's, smaller in the air
>2 second arm time
>Massive damage ramp-up time after placement
>Laborious reload with limited extra stock
>Long charge up time for ranged shots
Sticky Launcher is pretty fucking limiting when you understand how to weave around them and not act predictable as fuck.

>>387136270
No you are thinking of the time they reduced the base damage and made the damage ramp up over time, that was reverted.

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>>387131560
I really liked it when I was younger. I thought the customized weapons were really cool and I had amazing reaction timing.

If I were to play it now I think I would just be horrible and couldn't hit the broadside of a heavy.

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>>387135891
>If you weren't underage
24 is "underage" now? Is that really the best attempt you have at an argument? Are you going to act superior that you're still a 30 year old posting on a video game because DUDE QUAKE CRED?
>you'd remember other people feeling the same way when it came out
"These underage bicyclefags nowadays! They'll never understand how good the penny-farthing was and how everyone felt the same way when it came out!"
Faster horses, etc.
TF2 improved over QWTF/TFC in almost every possible way.
>and attempts to remake TFC like Fortress Forever
Also dead.

QWTF had abysmal balance compared to TF2 (more than half the classes were totally worthless), zero content compared to TF2 (only community-created maps, less game modes, no weapon alternatives), poor visual design compared to TF2 (all classes were reskins of the same frame), utterly shit graphics compared to TF2, and misses many quality of life improvements that TF2 added. All of these things are facts.

QWTF has only one single advantage over TF2: Movement bugs. Ones that are replicated in skill and speed with TF2's improvements and viability changes to rocket/sticky/double jumping and faster standard running anyway. Apart from that, it is a worse game than TF2 in every conceivable way.

It was a good game in its own day but it is an all-around worse game than TF2 is. Take off the nostalgia goggles.

Man why in the fuck does every other class pales in comparison to demoman and soldier?

Not saying the need a nerf but meeting them in a one on one is pretty much a death sentence.

idk how to feel about medics,. he is so important in a team that not having one while the other team has a medic is pretty much a instant gg.

>>387136390
the game had some balance changes but it is still pretty much the same

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>>387136494
>Man why in the fuck does every other class pales in comparison to demoman and soldier?
They don't.
Sniper can BTFO Demos from the other side of the map, Scout can BTFO Demos at close range, Heavy when on defense can BTFO Demo if he's revved up, Pyro can BTFO Demos at close range, and Medic is a literally vital class.

(Stock) Soldier, Sniper, Scout and Demoman are the balanced core classes of TF2. Pyro and Spy need to be buffed up to their level.
>he is so important in a team that not having one while the other team has a medic is pretty much a instant gg
Agree.

>Spy needs to be buffed
Impossible. Spy is by design a class that is only as effective as his opponents are stupid.
The only way to buff him would be to increase his direct damage, but then he'd stop being a Spy, and become some fucking McCree.

>>387135958
>The ONLY significant demo nerf was when they cut his primary ammo down to 4 from 6
That change was during the beta, which I doubt you were actually around for. They have made many nerfs since then.
https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Grenade_Launcher#Update_history
https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Stickybomb_Launcher#Update_history
> The stickies are still overpowered on-demand kills
If you genuinely think this I don't know what to tell you but to get good.
Close distance with a Demo and his stickies are useless.
Move literally less than 100HU away from a stickybomb in flight and you will take 0 damage.
>Stickies should only be used for traps
Why?
I can tell you why not: because if we make stickies only usable on defense for traps, then a huge host of TF2 maps will immediately become unplayable defensive clusterfucks. Say goodbye to all CTF maps, Dustbowl, and pretty much all 5CP maps too.

TF2 already has an advantage for defending teams, and you want to increase that advantage. That means that teams who try and capture objectives are always at a disadvantage, and that will make games take forever to end, if they end at all.

Stop posting your retarded opinions, anon. You don't understand anything about TF2 or what makes it tick, you just shit out ideas based on what you think "should be".

>>387132036
>>387132485
I've spent countless nights playing this game. It kept me a virgin till 20.

>>387136757
>(Stock) Soldier, Sniper, Scout and Demoman are the balanced core classes
i agree, i but medics needs to change. as a player that usually plays engie, medic and soldier, whenever my team is losing i just change to medic and usually turn the game around or the team survives much longer.

Pocketing is also strong as fuck and one pocketed soldier or demo can pretty much wipe out a team, not even taking into consideration all the ubers the medics has.

It is so cheap it is not even funny unless the other team also has a medic.

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>>387137009
>The only way to buff him would be to increase his direct damage
But that's not the ONLY way. There's plenty of other ways that you can buff him that would fit with the Spy theme.

Spy is thematically a saboteur, that's why he has the Sapper. However, the Sapper is totally useless when no Sentries are present.
We could buff the Sapper in a way that lets it do something in addition to sapping Sentries. For example:
>making enemies more vulnerable in an AoE while held out
>locking health/ammo packs to your team only
>reducing enemy damage
>draining enemy ammo
>allowing your team to see a particular enemy's position, HP, Uber and ammo through walls
Etc.

Spy would still be a stealth class, and now he would have a sabotage support function when the enemy was aware of his existence.

>>387137384
No disagreement here. What changes would you suggest to make Medic less mandatory/powerful?

>>387137253
>That change was during the beta
>Exact date unknown
Bullshit.
I wasn't in the beta, but I started day one. I can swear 6-chamber grenade launcher was still in the release version.
>If you genuinely think this I don't know what to tell you but to get good.
So you never faced a good demo.
>if we make stickies only usable on defense for traps, then a huge host of TF2 maps will immediately become unplayable defensive clusterfucks. Say goodbye to all CTF maps, Dustbowl, and pretty much all 5CP maps too.
Maybe it's you who should stop posting your retarded opinions.

>>387137734
>I can swear 6-chamber grenade launcher was still in the release version
6-chamber grenade launcher is in the game to the present day. It's obvious you're getting confused between the GL having 6 chambers with 6 shots.
>So you never faced a good demo
I have faced many good demos.
Do you seriously think that because people can be good at a class that it is overpowered and must be nerfed?
Good Scouts, Soldiers and Snipers have no problem dealing with good Demos.
>Maybe it's you who should stop posting your retarded opinions
That's not a valid rebuttal mate. Try again.
Changing the stickybomb launcher so that it is only usable for traps will make TF2's game pace slow down by magnitudes.

TF2 would be so good if valve actually gave a shit about it. It's been over a year since the last major update and MyM was shit

TODAY IS THE DAY

>>387137595
Well,in my opinion medics heals, uber and pocketing are way too powerful tools that make the team rely on him too much,unless you are a spy that survives on health pack.

I would suggest the following changes.

>Medi-gun, Kritzkreig and vacinator: Heals normally but healing is reduced if you healing target has taken any damage. Uber on MEdigun would also last one or 2 seconds less.
>Quick fix would ignore the heal penalty while target is taking damage but wouldn't be able to overheal at all.
>Vacinator: Change the total amount of possible ubercharges to 3 or 2 instead of 4 and make it lest just a little bit longer so medics can't use it at all times.

Also,make engineer dispenser build faster than normal and give him a mini dispenser so he can set up heals in unexpected places

>>387138151
Ehh I don't think Uber being shortened is the answer, though I like the general concept. I'd prefer to nerf healing (which slows down the game) rather than Uber (which speeds up the game).
Good start though

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>tfw my favorite tf2 server just received a revival
>tfw spend a shit ton of time music spamming there and having plain'ol fun

I didn't touch the game ever since you couldn't kike as much but now i got a reason to come back

>>387138096
the TF Team give a shit, but there's only like 15 of them.
Valve needs to hire more people, it's ridiculous. Their company only has 300 employees all up for 3 major games, it is literally 10 times smaller than is normal for a multiplayer game development company.

>>387138334
>I'd prefer to nerf healing (which slows down the game) rather than Uber (which speeds up the game).
I agree. vaccinator needs a nerf on it's uber though, that shit is pretty much a mini uber that you can use at any giving time.
>>387138336
what server?

>>387138410
>the TF Team give a shit, but there's only like 15 of them.
the team said,according to one of uncle dane's videos, that of people get unhappy with the current update model(big updates that come after long waiting times, they will change the model.

which i hope they do because the game's current state is fucking sad.

>>387138115
Valve got their international shit out of the way, I swear if we don't hear something today I'm gonna be mildly upset.

>>387139740
International may be over, but Artifact is just around the corner so they'll focus on that first

>>387138151
I don't see the problem with the medic being a necessity to the team. It creates a really good gameplay dynamic - that of a high-value target who is reliant on his team for protection but can also turn a game around if given the chance - and while it is annoying to be on a team with no medic versus one with a medic, I think his overall contribution to the game is a positive one.

I'd be wary of nerfing him, anyhow. If you get to the point where a team with a medic isn't significantly stronger than a team without a medic then you'll just get more people picking the stronger damage-dealing classes, and I think that would make the game less interesting. Another thing is that, in 6v6 play, the main roles of the sniper and spy are to get picks on high-value classes (i.e. the medic), so if you nerfed him to the point that people weren't always picking him you may end up seeing even less class variety in comp play.

>>387140032
>just around the corner
I'm assuming it's not coming till 2018 at the earliest with a teaser trailer like that.

>>387140136
>I don't see the problem with the medic being a necessity to the team
forces player to choose between playing a class they don't enjoy or losing
Healing also slows the game pace by removing attrition
Having multiple Meds breaks the game
>where a team with a medic isn't significantly stronger than a team without a medic then you'll just get more people picking the stronger damage-dealing classes
If they enjoy them, that's fine
>Another thing is that, in 6v6 play, the main roles of the sniper and spy are to get picks on high-value classes (i.e. the medic)
spy needs a buff anyway

>>387131651
First replier always cuts right to the heart of the matter doesn't he?

>>387140683
but not necessarily everyone dislikes medic, you may as well say to bring spy and sniper on-par with soldier and scout if you want everyone to be happy with what they prefer to play as

>>387140885
>but not necessarily everyone dislikes medic,
He's an unpopular class, put it that way.
Sure, there will usually be at least two people in a 24 man server who like playing Medic. But if those people are both dropped on the same team, then someone on the other team
Not good game design to force the player to choose between winning and having fun.
>if you want everyone to be happy with what they prefer to play as
Yeah man, that's the goal. Putting every stock class on the same tier of balance so that the player's choice is dependent on what they enjoy, not what the team "needs".
In this way, we can make Valve's competitive TF2 accessible to everyone, without needing to split TF2 into three different comp leagues (HL, 7s, 6s) to accommodate everyone playing the classes they want to play.
It will also have the benefit of improving pubs. If Spy becomes more useful, then your team having 3 Spies on it won't be quite as detrimental anymore.
>bring sniper and spy on par with soldier and scout
Yep.
In Spy's case it would be buffing him to have more useful support functions, so that he can be useful to the team even when the enemy is aware of his presence. >>387137524
In Sniper's case it would be reworking Heavy to be a bit less defensive and a bit more offensive, so Heavy is viable on offense more often and Sniper has easier targets as a result.

The goal is fun, skill, balance, and speed, meshing competitive and casual TF2 and keeping the best parts of both, while maintaining unique classes.

>>387141397
You can't just have every class be equally viable in every situation. You do that, and team composition ceases to matter, which leads to a shallow fucking game because nobody needs to think tactically about their picks or how they can work with their teammates' classes. Having said that, I think that there is a balance to be struck - there shouldn't be a single class that you HAVE to pick in a situation or you're fucked, because that limits a player's tactical options in the same way that any class being viable would, but I think TF2 does a good job at giving players options for the most part.

Really though, picking and counter-picking classes is a big part of any class-based game. If you hate having to pick a class that isn't your favourite because it's the best choice in the situation then maybe you should be playing a different game rather than trying to change the fundamentals of the entire genre

>>387142819
>You can't just have every class be equally viable in every situation
That's not what I'm trying to do.
I'm trying to make each class the best pick in 11% of situations, a good pick in 39% of situations, a bad pick in 39% of situations, and the worst pick in 11% of situations.
In no way am I trying to make every class viable in every situation; but I do want to try and reshape TF2 so that, instead of a few core classes being useful 99% of the time and other classes being useful 1% of the time, instead everyone is useful roughly 50% of the time.
>Having said that, I think that there is a balance to be struck - there shouldn't be a single class that you HAVE to pick in a situation or you're fucked, because that limits a player's tactical options
Absolutely, and that's the problem with Medic in his current state. Choose him or lose is what it really boils down to. And Spy is "choose him and you'll lose".
>Really though, picking and counter-picking classes is a big part of any class-based game
Honestly I really don't think so. The earliest class-based games like Hexen: Beyond Heretic deathmatch (the game that inspired Team Fortress), or good later ones like Star Wars Battlefront, got along fine without the concept of counterpicking. Earlier Team Fortress games weren't built around counterpicking either.

I think a class based game being heavily based around counters is a terrible idea. It makes the player's success less about how skilled they are at their particular class, and more about what they chose when they walked out of spawn. That's what makes Overwatch, in part, a lot less interesting than TF2.

But with all that said: I am NOT saying that we should remove the soft counter system from TF2. It will remain.

>>387133129
Just click around Dota 2 menu, here is the look of new game.

>>387144479
Can you actually elaborate how classes would be useful beyond the basic and vague idea of offense and defense? Like what 11% situations and 39% situations is Pyro or Spy going to be useful?

>>387132986
His best range is every other combat class' best range. He has no mobility or health.

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>angry that tf2 has had no good support for the last decade
>nothing else comes close to how good it is though

>>387145639
well,it is true. the only thing fucking up TF2 right now is the dogshit matchmaking and not much reason to play ranked.

I honestly just wished there was a sort of team scramble after every match and even auto balance on casual since steamrolling is quite common.

>>387145639
Loadout was promising but having a gazillion weapons combinations doesn't matter if only a few of them are viable.

>>387145972
It's also fucking dead
I liked it too, fuck the idiots who pulled the plug on it

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>>387145112
Okay, for a start, here's the groundwork for the buffs.
I believe that TF2's stock classes are currently split into rough categories of "pick" (eliminate important targets who are difficult to reach), "power" (be the frontline in the push/take on many enemies at once), and "support" (helps allies in non-combat ways and acts as a force multiplier).
Pyro currently fills the role of a support-power class hybrid. I'd make it fill that role better by increasing its combat capabilities.
>buff the Flamethrower's range (rewards good aim)
>reduce the Flamethrower's width (takes more aiming skill)
>Allow Pyro to "airblast jump" by jumping and pressing M2, knocking itself back similarly to FaN (giving it the mobility to get in range to attack, or to roll out to mid)
It would be useful when you needed a mix between Scout's ground mobility and Soldier's aerial mobility, when you needed crowd control, when you have Soldiers spamming you en masse, when you need someone to spycheck efficiently, when the enemy Pyro is spamming fire, etc. It would be slightly less efficient in combat than Scout, Soldier, or Demo, but make up for it with the above mentioned support stuff.

Spy currently fills the role of the support-pick hybrid. (It sees enemy HP/uber, spies on enemies invisibly, and saps buildings). I'd increase the support side of that role by doing one of the ideas outlined in >>387137524.

Spy would be able to periodically eliminate important targets for his team, and inbetween picks he could contribute to communications, healing, or damage. He would be useful if you needed someone to counter Sniper, to spy on the enemy, to make grouped-up enemies weaker, to kill people Sniper and Scout couldn't reach, etc.

I know that a lot of what I'm saying as the "11%" is stuff the classes already does. But what I'm aiming to do is to increase that "39%" of situations where they're an acceptable pick.

>>387131560
Because I play it to play it. Not a care in the world if i win or lose. I'm rarely mad when I play. If anything the stupid shit that can happen makes me laugh. Whether it be things like ragdolls, perfectly timed voice lines to certain situations, taunt kills, even netting a multi from a random crit I'm enjoying myself and always coming back to this game. Whenever I play OW it's just to grind for skins or a stupid number. I feel obligated to since deep down I don't want to admit for the hype and marketing. Blizzard could've stood a chance if they didn't try to push esports for a casual game, due to that OW doesn't feel as lighthearted by design. It's contradictory to the rest of the game. Don't get me wrong I still fucking hate Valve for what they've done (and haven't done.) It's more at Valve as a whole since they all fucked off to dota. I appreciate the tf team for trying but they really need to stop being so silent, it's frustrating.

>>387146214
>people bragging about cheating on the community forums

Game deserved better but I shouldn't be surprised after how the devs handled mnc.

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>>387145639
TF2 had perfectly good updates until early 2013, when new items/maps began coming solely from the community and major updates began trickling down to just the usual Halloween/Christmas updates. All of the major updates up to the original Australian Christmas were GOAT.

Reminder that there hasn't been a new non-reskin weapon since 2014

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>>387135337
>Tribes 2
you just had to ruin my day didnt you