Metal Gear Solid 2

Sons of Liberty.

is worse than MGS1 and 3

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>>387038168

>>387038168
"haha I was only pretending to make a shitty sequel" -kojima

>>387038405
Nope

MGS1 is dog poop.
>totally stealth, but you need to kill people anyways
>genetically modified super soldiers on patrol, near-sighted and absolutely retarded
>"a surveillance camera?" at a nuclear disposal site
>boss fights are primitive and terrible
>Evil twin brother cliche
>graphics are shite and do not hold up at all
>controls are also shite
MGS2+3 however are quite different, quality-wise and gameplay-wise both superb

raiden was the balliest move on vg history

and it worked

>>387038935
What's wrong with surveillance cameras on nuclear disposal sites?

>>387038168
was worth watching but not worth playing

MGS 1, 2 and 3 are all masterpieces imo.

BUT MGS3 IS BY FAR THE BEST. BEST SETTING, BIG BOSS > Solid Snake, BEST BOSSES, EVA IS THE BEST GIRL IN THE ENTIRE SERIES, "WHAT A THRILL", THE LADDER PART, DA JUNGLE, DA STEALTH, DA EVERYTHANG

>>387039375
Think he's implying that snake asking about surveillance cameras at a nuclear disposal site is a dumb question for a super soldier, but it's just a line to help the player.

>>387038935
Fuck off kid. MGS1 is still one of the best games ever created, one of the best MGS games ever created, and BTFO of the clunky , wannabe "so deep!" shit the 2 was.

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god bless you OP, I started out being annoyed at MGS2 but now I think it's the best game ever.

imo MGS2 is the true patrician choice over MGS3, even in terms of gameplay. the difference is, in 3 the game explains better that "you can do x to solve y" so the non-linearity is more obvious, whereas 2's complexity can only be revealed and appreciated when you're replaying and have mastered the controls and camera. the camera isn't "bad", it's an integral part of how you even play the fucking game, MGS2 is HEAVILY based on visual perspectives, whether it's in cutscenes, or how the way you move the camera (first person, behind cover, etc) has a very unique, "human eye" quickness to it.

you will complain about the controls your first time playing, but by the time you beat the game a couple of times and try your hand at getting the high-score in VR missions you'll understand the depth of the controls and feel like you've mastered them and the game's systems

that's not even going into the narrative and themes of the game- they're way more deep than a simple 'meta' kojima ruse, the ruse is like the entry level to understanding the fucking game and what lies beyond

>>387040000
QUADS OF TRUTH

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>The game becomes good after you beat it several times
>I love pretentious bullshit stories.

>>387040918
what was pretentious about it?

>>387040000
I've played all MGS games multiple times, on PS2 and 3, and 2's controls and camera still drive me up the wall. The narrow corridors and those borderline survival-horror-tier camera angles do not mesh well with the gameplay, even more so since even Radar's not available until you locate a Nerd in each area. Or don't get it at all in Snake's Tales.

No amount of "it was MEANT to be shit all along!" will make the game actually good.

>>387041107
It acts like it's smarter and more important than it's really is.
It's literally the epitome of "2deep4u" bullshit story.

>>387041446
well buddy it's your own problem that you can't git gud and and actually USE the game's controls properly. fuck I can even seamlessly go from 2 to 3 to 4 even with their wildly different button mapping

>No amount of "it was MEANT to be shit all along!" will make the game actually good.
it wasn't meant to be shit, it was meant to be good and it is good

>>387041689
This.
Kojima saw a TV document about internet getting filled of junk and half-truths in very late 90s, thought that'd make a sweet story element, and here we are now.

the actual plot and events of 2 itself are practically just a pure rehash of 1.

>>387040000
MGS2 surpasses video games. Even if there were valid arguments for it being a bad game (which there are not) they would be irrelevant. Kojima crafted something that needs to be experienced, not just "played"

>>387041689
ok then, can you briefly explain what the themes of the game are? because I bet you don't fully grasp kojima's message

>>387041742
I have no problems going from early 90s KB-only PC titles to 2017's console blockbusters in a flash either, and I can control MGS games and all the major survival-horror titles from late 90s without any issues. But even then the overall DESIGN of the MGS2 continues to fight against the player.

There's already a huge, stark contrast between the Tanker section, which is pretty much gameplay finetuned to perfection within the game's context and style, and the Big Shell, which is simply the polar opposite.

>>387041870
>because I bet you don't fully grasp kojima's message
>y-you just don't understand it
And this is exactly what I was talking about, you just confirmed the whole "2deep4u" bullshit.

>>387041782
>the actual plot and events of 2 itself are practically just a pure rehash of 1.

Well no shit, did you play the game?

>>387042035
He's right though. There is nothing in the game that should go over your head, but obviously it did if you think that "It acts like it's smarter and more important than it's really is."

>>387042081
When did GenZ kids start parroting this "Did ya even play teh gaem??" meme? It seems to be the go-to copypasted non-argument these days whenever negative yet often well argued feedback is given for their favorite game.

Yes sonny Jim, I played it already long before you'd stopped sucking your mother's nipples. I ran through the old pre-release demo on a PS2 demodisc dozens of times before the game shipped, and have done the main game plenty of times, in OG form, Substance, and via HD Collection.

The point still stands: No matter how much you try to masquerade the fact into a plot device, the whole last 2/3 of MGS2 is literally a rehash of MGS1.

>>387042473
> the whole last 2/3 of MGS2 is literally a rehash of MGS1.

No, literally the entire thing is a rehash. That's the point. Why even bring this up? It's like saying "metal gear is a stealth game"

>>387042035
you didn't answer his question

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>MGS2
PFFFTT HAHAHAH

>>387042579
>No, literally the entire thing is a rehash
The first Tanker section is not.

>>387038168
>Metal Gear Solid 2

okay game until the last part and overall a disappointing sequel

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>>387041927
>There's already a huge, stark contrast between the Tanker section, which is pretty much gameplay finetuned to perfection within the game's context and style, and the Big Shell, which is simply the polar opposite.
see, you say that about tanker because you were shown and told about what can be done, about you being able to shoot each individual object, about the ice melting, about the cool moments of hiding behind a wall in a tight corridor and waiting for the guard to turn around and not see your shadow. the game even plays with this by toying with the idea that the tanker was VR, in both implications and flashbacks that show a tanker where things happen differently to the way you played it. the plant section has just as much gameplay packed into each and every area, but you aren't explicitly told you can fuck around with it and if you can't even control the fucking game properly yet, you certainly can't efficiently maneuver the game's obstacles with prowess by exploiting the TIGHT AS FUCK design. you probably just stumble your way through the game, cheesing tranq headshots and not being able to use the cover system correctly

>within the game's context
this is another big point. if you get upset at the game for not giving you the context that you would expect in an MGS sequel, that's your own problem. it makes a ton of allusions to MGS1's narrative-to-gameplay structure, but it also completely flips it on its head as well, and if you don't 'get' the game, you're bound to be upset at both of these decisions

it's like if you had a plain jane gf and one day she said she was going to start working out and wanted you to go to the gym with her, but in your own arrogance and naïveté, you decide to stay at home all the time. the tanker part is where you notice that your gf looks objectively sexier and better in every way, but she's still recognizable in some form. the plant part is where she leaves you and you get upset because "she's changed"

>>387042035
so explain the game then if it's that shallow and pretentious

>>387042473
kek. same thing going on with the revival of Twin Peaks. I think it's great (after episode 8. before that, only episode 4 is good), but if you go into it with some amount of hype and preconceived notions, you're gonna get LYNCHed for being a fucking faggot. same way you got RUSED in MGS2. Twin Peaks isn't bad on purpose, it's different. If you think "oh, this isn't twin peaks anymore!", that's your problem. Same thing with the masterpiece that is MGS2

someone said in a past thread that 4, PW, and V were bad because 3 ruined the series by going back in time and complicating the story

anyone agree with that? I may be misrepresenting their argument

>>387043857
No, 3 ruined the series by being too good.

Not to say the others aren't, but 3 set the bar pretty high.

>>387041806
>ojima crafted something that needs to be experienced, not just "played"

and it was a bad experience

>>387043146
>because you were shown and told about what can be done
No, I wasn't. Don't push your GenZ Youtube documentary shit on me, none of that existed in 2001.

I was free to EXPERIMENT and explore on my own. And the camera-angles never got in the way of the gameplay. It embraced the MGS1-style high angle, "North is always up" ideology, which made the maps easy to navigate and follow at all times.

>cheesing Tranq headshots
thanks for reminding me how MGS2 practically ruined the series by turning it into a first-person-tranquilizer.

"Cover system"? You mean hiding behind a wall outside of AI's field of view? That shit has been a core part of the series since THE Metal Gear.

>this is another big point. if you get upset at the game for not giving you the context...
now you're just getting confused and sidetracked.
I was talking about the style and context of the GAMEPLAY. Seriously, go play the Tanker again, and try to convince me that Big Shell plays anything like it, or "better". Same controls and mechanisms, but VASTLY different gamefeel.

What comes to the story and shit... again, there is nothing to "not get". I have no idea what makes you nu-MGS2 fangirls even consider the game to be hard to understand, as it literally spells everything out loud FOR you. It's nothing like the Silent Hill games that have multiple story layers and loves to tell their stories via hints and symbolism.

>>387043857
4 was bad because it had to explain what in the actual fuck happened with 2

>>387043857
you can definitely think that the series ended with 3. 4 and pw (didn't play v) can therefore be seen as "bonuses" to the three main games' plot line but they are enjoyable enough to still play them

>>387043857
4 was bad because it was full of embarrassingly stupid stuff

PW+5 were bad because they made the plot deadly serious while still being stupid and nonsensical

>>387044206
>didn't play v

Good. V's plot is a whole lot of nothing and only serves to explain how Big Boss survived Metal Gear 1

>>387044362
>4 was bad because it was full of embarrassingly stupid stuff
at least we got playabe Rex and improved Raiden in 4

>>387043974
lmao you absolutely got KOJIMA'D for being the target audience, and it's hilarious how you're still salty after 16 years.

>Don't push your GenZ Youtube documentary shit on me, none of that existed in 2001.
it absolutely did. That was the entire point of the trailers, the tech demo aspect, the tanker demo, the magazine articles, the HYPE. it was the most hyped game ever, and you're a naive bitch for getting mad at all of it. You can like low-brow fun games and low-brow "intellectual" games like Silent Hill because you can know what you're getting, your ego feels satisfied to know that when it wants to play an arcadey game it can, and when it wants a """deeper""" experience (if you're a pleb that's not used to high-brow media anyway), you can go for the story focused games that gamers find to be "good". MGS2, like many post-modern works, delivers high-brow content through a low-brow medium, but it still maintains all of the game design standards it's supposed to, ie good gameplay, and you can see that in the VR missions.

>it literally spells everything out loud FOR you. It's nothing like the Silent Hill games that have multiple story layers and loves to tell their stories via hints and symbolism.
kek. MGS2 has layers upon layers of symbolism and hidden story elements. how about you give me a quick breakdown of what the themes of the game are if you really do understand it that well?

>>387038168
>roses are red
>violets are blue
>metal gear
>solid two

>>387044398
4 was definitely better than PW+5 and at least it felt like a MGS game

>>387043974
the tanker and the rest of the game have different "gameplay" and "gamefeel" because its an entirely different character with more range of motion and more ways to interact and is BETTER than the classic mgs gameplay
once you get comfortable with the game you can do some straight up hawk shit takedowns and fuck with the decent ai in every conceivable way and its extremely fun
raidens movements are more fluid than snakes and it lends itself very well to the gameplay but maybe you are just bad at games so not having the game built around going grandpa speed like the tanker section isnt within the range of your skills

>>387043857
I'm playing V now, I like the stories of the prequels. It's fun to see how Big Boss becomes the "villain" and how he became the best soldier in the world.
The only thing that irks me is the technology. I thought Metal Gear was supposed to be a new invention in the 90's but turns out its been around since the 60s.

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>>387044798
eh, i definitely appreciated 4 for the spectacle it was but i've had no intention to go through it a second time since i finished it
peace walker, albeit being a grinding festival at the end, was super fun to play

>>387045242
some Metal Gear games are so lame that they are just a "beat it once and done" type of deal with me.

Like MGS2 and MGS5 for me

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Obligatory

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>>387045375
>listening to someone who says: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul8j9I90ueM

>>387045375
Google is now The Patriots. Hiding "unpleasant" videos that speak the truth from normie's eyes.

>>387045728
Like what ?

>>387045987
It hasn't happened yet. But Youtube announced it weeks ago. They're going to start banning videos from being recommended, not allowing comments, not able to be monetized, etc. Basically putting videos in purgatory, never to be seen by the average person.

>>387046325
Uh... >>387045728 said Google. Not Youyube you fucker.

also you better have a source

>>387045987
http://archive.is/ihUlq

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>>387046325
you mean a private company is going to do shit to their own stuff? NOOOOOOOOO Say it isn't so.

>>387046395
...what?

>>387046403
>controversial religious content

Ha shit. I will miss flat earth videos.

>>387046479

post >>387045728 says that google is hiding videos

but in the response >>387046325 mentions Youtube. Not google

>>387045728
Youtube fucked up by letting the anti-sjw/skeptic community explode into popularity thanks to the last election cycle. Those people helped to elect our president and now Google is spectacularly assmad about it.

Hopefully one of the jewtube alternatives gets popular enough.

>>387046635
Google owns YouTube.

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And then raiden redeemed himself where he fought nanomachine senators and memefags with his robot doggo and his fuck you cut everything blade.

Does rising seem a lot like megaman? What if doktor was the final boss and he made some insane metal gear he'd fight you in?

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>>387046586
>faggotron alt-right dicksucker doesn't know how capitalism works

>>387046758
>And then raiden redeemed himself where he fought nanomachine senators and memefags with his robot doggo and his fuck you cut everything blade.

and yet the elitist pricks of the MGS2 fanbase think this RUINED Raiden.

>>387040000
>the camera isn't "bad", it's an integral part of how you even play the fucking game, MGS2 is HEAVILY based on visual perspectives, whether it's in cutscenes, or how the way you move the camera (first person, behind cover, etc) has a very unique, "human eye" quickness to it.
I totally agree with this, same reason I prefer Snake Eater's original camera. The whole point is that there are specific mechanics you need to use in order to get a clear eye on enemies.

>>387046814
Probably gonna play MG2 now after playing the shit out of peacewalker. Should be a weird experience after playing rising.

>>387046814
If anything, MGS4 ruined Raiden, not MGR

The role of Raiden in MGS4 is basically exorcising the rage of the assblasted fans who wanted to play Snake in MGS2 by mutilating Raiden as much as possible

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>>387046586
It's their platform and they can do whatever they want with it. Go back to /pol/ and you can spout your garbage all you like.

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>>387046997
>If anything, MGS4 ruined Raiden, not MGR

MGS4 stated Raiden on the path of of improvement and no amount of hissyfitting from the MGS2 fans is going to change it.

Face it, the whiny Snake wanabee from MGS2 is dead and replaced with something better.

>>387047264
vote with your wallet. Use something else. See >>387046958 and quit being such a fucking retard.

>>387047228
Nah, I am not complaining about what Raiden is now, but about how MGS4 was about "look how he suffers! Look how he gets dismembered!" to the point it gets ridiculous.

The pinnacle of this is that pseudo-sacrifice at the end of Act 4 which heavily implies Raiden is fucked, only to hear at start of Act 5 "nah, is gonna be fine" just for him to be mutilated a bit more. It's like a running gag trying to get serious.

>>387047531
>It's like a running gag trying to get serious.

true. At least MGR keeps the gag goinn and treats it like a gag

>Sam slices off Raiden's arm
>Raiden just goes "NOT AGAIN" like it's a common thing that happens

>>387040000
Reminder that the second game in a series is always the best.
>MGS2
>Nier 2
>Suikoden 2

>>387038576
>NERD?
>PROCEEDING ON TO MAIN MISSION OBJECTIVES

>>387047839
MGS2
Xenosaga 2
DMC2

all prove you wrong

>>387038935
>graphics are shite and do not hold up at all
It unironically has the best graphics out of all MGS. Also I miss the Shinkawa codec art.

>>387044550
>Y-You just don't get it!
>y-y-you g-got tricked, mate!!!
brilliant arguments.
So the game is shit by default, and that's somehow negating the fact that it's shit?

Wew, talk about being a true hipster's wet dream.

>>387044960
The character has literally nothing to do with anything. You could put player control Otacon in same environments and shit, and Tanker would still shine over the BS thanks to superior game design.

>>387049863
>So the game is shit by default, and that's somehow negating the fact that it's shit?

welcome to tge MGS2 fanbase.

Bitch about the story and they go "story doesn't matter, it's the themes!" or "You don't get it" or "It's bad on purpose"

bitch about Raiden being bad and they go "He's literally you" or "WAHHHHH WANNA PLAY AS SNEAK!"

and never even try to counter the arguments.

>>387049863
what else is there to tell you when you don't get it? the game is excellent and if you don't get that the game is excellent and think it's bad because of your ego and expectations being completely RUSED, it's your problem. you can stay salty all your life, but know that millions of people love it and hail it as the masterpiece that it is. In fact, I went pretty much blind into the series, I knew that Raiden was a thing and that you play as him for a long portion of the game, but I didn't know what the game was gonna be at all, and I was somewhat annoyed, but it was my own fault for not getting it at the time.

>>387050683
>what else is there to tell you when you don't get it?

come up with a real counter argument.

>>387046458
a private company with no competition

>>387050906
who's fault is that?

>>387050458
>NOT GETTING IT THIS BAD
i'm not even memeing. you people just don't get it. raiden is not even a self-insert, he's got tons of backstory and his own personality and everything, but he is supposed to be a guy new to REAL field work. the only 'self-insert' would come from him being new to the series and to field work and being a player character, but he is a very unwilling player character, which is one of the game's points.

you EXPECT things from snake, from raiden, from MGS, from your friends, from artists, from anything, based on your own arrogance. if you expected one thing and got another radically different, you get mad. spoiler alert- you can never know what your friends or anyone else is really like, but if they do something outside of what your brain deems "typical behavior" for them, you somehow think it's their fault for fooling you or being dishonest.

MGS2 is a masterpiece, but it doesn't owe you anything

>>387050683
>what else is there to tell you when you don't get it?
What am I not getting here exactly?
That Kojima did one of the earliest bait&switch tricks in gaming history by hiding any and all info about Raiden and B.S. from public?
That Raiden is somehow supposed to represent the players who wish to be like Sneikku?
That Kojima was so sick and tired of Metal Gear already in 1999 that he purposedly made the game vague as fuck with no proper ending, just so he could let go and give the saga to new generation of game devs (which never happened though)?

Terrible game-design by design does not negate the fact that the game has terrible game-design.

>>387051169
>i'm not even memeing.

and yet you are spouting a meme

>>387051361
>What am I not getting here exactly?
once again, you are simply not getting it
>That Kojima did one of the earliest bait&switch tricks in gaming history by hiding any and all info about Raiden and B.S. from public?
this isn't meant to be the point of MGS2, but rather the intro, the appetizer to the whole course
>That Raiden is somehow supposed to represent the players who wish to be like Sneikku?
if that's what you wished, that's your problem. Again, I went through the series blind, and I never wished that. One of Kojima's goals was to give Snake real character depth, and he decided that he could only do that if Snake wasn't player controlled, which is the same reason Raiden also has hidden depth and personality that you only find out about near the end, and his personality and interactions with Rose and other sexual scenarios (regarding Vamp's backstory, for example, or the President groping Raiden) are also big themes in the game that tie into all of the other themes like genes and memes (genes=sex)
>vague as fuck with no proper ending
to me it was very clear. Like the Sopranos ending, it ends because the story ends. If you have extraneous questions about "what does Raiden do", that's irrelevant to the story of the game because the story of the game already happened and you saw what happened in it, and to ask for more would be pointless, not to mention that he's a fictional character to begin with and being this voyeuristicly arrogant is your fault

>>387052137
>you are simply not getting it

once again, you are meming

>>387051361
just give up, it's impossible to argue logic with a MGS2fag

>>387052210
>memeing
I'm explaining portions of the MGS2 experience as I go along. My posts are more content rich than simply "lol u don't get it :^)", just as MGS2 is more content rich than whatever ruse lives in your head

>>387052368
>I'm explaining portions of the MGS2 experience as I go along.

and yet you open your posts with the "you don't get it" meme

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ITT

>>387052137
>you just don't get it!
broken record, mate.
Give me something solid.

>if that's what you wished, that's your problem. Again, I went through the series blind, and I never wished that
I didn't wish anything. I'm just repeating what YOU fags have been spewing out all the time the past couple years.
I played all MGS games in release order as they originally came out, 1-3 long before I had any access to internet or anything, so you can bet your arse I was playing them "blind".

It's also funny how you're once again dodging the gameplay criticism completely.

>>387052210
>just give up, it's impossible to argue logic with a MGS2fag
I know that, but this is just so hilarious. I can smell the butthurt from miles away.

>>387042473
Thats the joke retard. Mgs2 is a rehash of a rehash of a rehash. The plot of mgs2 is based on how everygame is a rehash of mg1

>>387052826
>The plot of mgs2 is based on how everygame is a rehash of mg1

no shit, it was the Solid Snake Simulation afterall

>>387052486
maybe stop being an entitled little cunt

>>387052582
>I'm just repeating what YOU fags have been spewing out all the time the past couple years.
oh apparently I speak for the whole of /v/, the MGS2 fanbase and the entire internet, despite having only started the series about a year ago

>It's also funny how you're once again dodging the gameplay criticism completely.
the gameplay is excellent, there was a different anon that pointed out how great it is, including the controls and camera. what criticism do you even have exactly, beyond intangible concepts such as "gamefeel"? is gamefeel something created only by the game, or does it also require player cooperation, which would imply there are ways to play the game wrong (which most likely you are doing)?

>>387053158
>more memes
>gameplay is excellent because I say so
>wut is gamefeel??
sasuga MGS2 fags

>>387053756
>more greentext
>gameplay is bad because I say so
>wut is the meaning of MGS2??
>this is what entitled fags actually believe
さすが!

>>387054294
>spewing a decade old memes as an argument
凄い

>>387054294
>entitled fags

how are we entitled for wanting a non shit sequel?

>>387054640
>still thinking one person speaks for an entire group and spews memes of the 'collective'
バカ

>>387054656
>how am I entitled for wanting something?
it could have been good or bad. It was good. You were disappointed, which factors into your rating

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>>387055098
>You were disappointed
because it was bad

>which factors into your rating
yes, I rate bad games poorly

>>387055326
>having expectations about anything in life ever
there's the problem, buddy. glad to have helped you out :)

>Jack do you remember what today is?

>>387055750
fuck off Rose!
*fast forwards codec*