This is proof that video games can be art without sacrificing gameplay

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>>386962653
No, this is
It's also a significantly superior game

>>386962903

I like Nier but yeah Bloodborne tops it.

>>386962903
theyre kinda different but i get your point

personally i think theyre both on similar levels in terms of being "art"

>platinum games
>good gameplay
14 detected, kys yourself cuck

>>386964342
>t. Hasn't played the game
You've had all summer, anon, you'll have no time to play once you go back to school

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>>386962903
>>386962653
>mfw both are Japanese games
Stay cucked westfags

>>386962653
there have been plenty of other games like that, anon.

>>386965189
fuck off platshitter

>>386964342
>>386965189
platinium gameplay is good but in this game the gameplayt is too much basic

>>386962903
LOL

>>386962903
>reminder that if BB wasn't a Sony exclusive it wouldn't even be half as shilled by Sonytards
It's just reskinned Dark Souls. Atmosphere is better but the controls are still fucking dogshit.

games aren't art, even the japanese ones

>>386965404
doesn't make it bad.

>>386965651
Not those anons but while it isn't bad, it ends up being boring since there's a lack of variety and enemies end up rather spongy. Less health and more emphasis on the unique abilities would have helped (hacking is the only one that actually is useful). Going berserk or countering is often not worth the time/hassle

>>386962653
>without sacrificing gameplay
i just rather buy something that plays good, unfortunately nier tomato was a total waste of 8 hours and $40
sad

>>386962653
Proof that shit threads can get replies by sacrificing quality.

>>386965651
doesn't make it a masterpiece too

>tfw finished Automata last night at 3 AM
The first half was disappointing and made me think that Taro sold out but the second had my jaw in the floor basically the entire time
The original was one of my favorite games ever and this definitely topped it

I wish I hadn't deleted my save data so that I could go rewatch Ending E over and over but it seemed appropriate

>>386965776
This
Also the game is stupid broken, the plugins are so ridiculous at higher levels and the window for a perfect dodge is so generous that by the end I got Overclock and Deadly Heal and basically just mashed dodge/light attack and was untouchable
As far as the actual combat goes it's definitely in the lower tier of Platinum games but as a Taro game/sequel to Nier I'm just happy that it's not a fucking chore to play

>>386965875
GOTTEMMMMM

>>386966125
Well shilled, Tarocuck.

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>>386962653
reminder this game is shit and I fell for the meme

>>386966267
>Being so deluded that you think Square Enix is going to viral a game nearly half a year old that was on the Steam best-selling chart for weeks
This is your brain on 4chan

>>386966321
Should've pirated it. Was a solid 7/10, but /v/ sucked the developer's dick way too much and it had some of the worst gameplay Platinum has done in a while with a godawful open world on top of it.

>>386966321
You know it basically becomes a different game after you beat it right
You might as well have played the first two rooms of the MGS2 tanker and then decided it was shit and screenshotted your progress to show everyone how smart you are

>>386962903
>the easiest soulsgame

no

>>386966612
>some of the worst gameplay Platinum has done in a while
Metal Gear Rising called

>>386966663
Not a good comparison. MGS2 was garbage until the last few moments with Solidus, Ocelot/Liquid and Snake and the reveals happened.

>>386966741
Well memed.

>>386966741
I mean to be honest, what's the difference? They're both complete trash. It's the same rehashed shit time and time again.

>Automata is either a artful masterpiece or a piece of shit according to /v/
For fuck sake. Automata was good, maybe even my particular goty, but also very flawed in many different aspects.

>>386966741
MGR's gameplay is great. Nier has the most unbalanced difficulty in any game I've ever played. It really feels like platinum phoned it in and included a spam-able dodge just to be safe.

>>386962653
In terms of combat, it's the worst crazy game ever made, including western dogshit like Lords of Shadow, DmC, Dante's Inferno, etc. I don't know why they made r1 mash go into full lauch with follow-ups without even requiring a rekka or back input.

>>386966798
This is on the shortlist for worst opinion I've ever seen on this website and that's saying a lot

Either way though how is it not a good comparison?
Both games try and pull a fake-out by starting out fairly vanilla and then taking a dramatic left turn halfway through

>>386966798
That's bullshit. The tanker chapter was the best part of MGS2. The game goes downhill after it.

>>386966663
MGS2's gameplay remains constant throughout. If someone dropped it in the Tanker citing shit gameplay, I wouldn't tell them to play longer.

>>386962653
>you can make art if you don't sacrifice the artistic element

thx cpt obvious

>>386965546
those who don't have the talent for making a film go down to games and insist it's art

>>386967018
>>>>Dante's Inferno
Are you joking? Have you ever even played Dante's Inferno? That game is straight up irredeemable
It's impossible to talk about anything objectively on this board because everyone just jumps to hyperbole and refuses to acknowledge that just because they didn't like a game doesn't mean it's devoid of merit
See >>386966998

>>386967010
MGR is also six hours long and has shit for depth
I'm don't disagree that Automata's gameplay is weak compared to Platinum's other material but it's not like their catalog is spotless

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>Nier, 2013
>Arguably the most awkward and least-balanced combat system of the generation
>"No it's okay because the story and atmosphere are supposed to be the focus"

>Nier: Automata, 2017
>Perfectly functional and clearly thought-out combat that has a couple of glaring issues with balance and repetition
>"Shit game 0/10 not even worth paying for"

>>386967665
>Perfectly functional and clearly thought-out combat
You lost me right there.

>>386967278
MGS2's gameplay isn't its selling point
It's fun but the story is what sets it apart from being just a generic arcade-y stealth game
Same with Automata. The gameplay isn't stellar but that's not the point, if you want to play a game purely for the action without any consideration for story or worldbuilding save yourself some money and play Bayonetta instead

>>386967438
>MGR is also six hours long and has shit for depth

But it's also very fast paced and crams some great bosses into it's short run time. Nier on the other hand is bloated with sword-sponge bosses.

>I'm don't disagree that Automata's gameplay is weak compared to Platinum's other material but it's not like their catalog is spotless

Certainly not. They've made some shit games but Nier is the weakest of their non-shovelware games.

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>>386962653
No, this is. But dumb /v/edditors with only vidya-related cinematic/story experiences are too dumb for it.

>>386967806
The point stands
Play through the original Nier or any of the Drakengard games and then come back to Automata and tell me the combat is garbage

>>386967931
>Nier is the weakest of their non-shovelware games
What is uhhh Anarchy Reigns

>>386967879
>It's fun but the story is what sets it apart from being just a generic arcade-y stealth game
>MGS2
>good story
It's poorly written anime garbage up until the twist at the end. That's the thing that sets it apart, not the story.

>>386962653
Couldn't stand of the constant running around the map without fast travel until the later part of the game and the tedious world design. Game would be better if it was linear and divided into multiple levels like Drakengard imo. Although that wouldn't work if side quests are present.

That being said my only gripe with this game is just that, the repetitiveness. I don't have any complaints about the story and lore. On that department I'm 100% satisfied just because they made the Legion canon

>>386968335
That's the point
Nobody cared about MGS1's ideas about genetics so MGS2's story was deliberately made to be campy nonsense so that nobody would take it seriously and everyone would focus on the ideas behind it instead
That's what I meant when I mentioned the story

>>386968002
Dammit, Sheldon.

>>386968748
Where did they mention the Legion? I must have missed it

>>386969091
Well technically none of the characters do, it's in one of those old world documents.

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>tfw you realized that the title Nier:Automata actually made sense
>the machine's network and AI (and thus also YoRHa)were basically based on data that was found on the Forest of Myth which hosted Nier's data so that's why they get existential and make errors like humans
>mfw they're literally are Nier automatons

>>386969279
Gotcha. I think I missed a couple before Ending E so obviously it's gonna be hard to go back but that's pretty cool.
I wonder if we're going to see a continuation of this world anytime soon. Seems like there's not much else they can do with it but that's exactly what I thought after the first game, so.

>>386969867
Didn't something happen in 13000ish AD where the machine had a war with another machines over something? Haven't read much into the side materials yet. But I doubt Taro want to tackle the same elements in each game

>>386962653
It's not that artistic, and doesn't have good gameplay. It's okay.

>>386966125
I mostly agree with you, but I thought this narrative was overall much weaker than Nier 1 due to emotional impact. We just didn't get to see enough progression between 2B/9S-- it feels much faster than it is supposed to. The only twist I did not see coming (and I should have, fucking hell) is the last one 2A reveals.

>>386969774
Beepy also played a huge role in why they gained free will. He literally hacked into alien machines and gave them a mind of their own. Same with androids who were present on battlefield.

>>386969774
Androids already existed with Devola + Popola and such, though. It was only in the events of Nier that they became "people." Doesn't that all predate the Forest of Myth? I mean the overseer to the forest loses his purpose and it's the other remnants of humanity that try to continue on. The whole thing with Nier: Automata is both sides were doing shit to avoid their programmed "ending" in order to sustain meaning in their existence.

>>386971014
What's the source for this? Also what benefit does the network have with killing so many neutral machines? I understand why they were doing the other stuff they did, but not really that.

>>386968858
>The story is SUPPOSED to be shit
mmm... really made me think...

>>386971506
The source is the novella "The Fire of Prometheus"

>>386971506
>What's the source for this?
Fire of Prometheus.
Who the fuck do you think god from volcano is?
>Also what benefit does the network have with killing so many neutral machines?
Evolution through creating hardships for itself. It doesn't view death as something horrible because it lacks understanding of the concept.

>>386971779
I meant more like they specifically seem to target machines outside of the network despite them actually aiding the resistance which is sort of what they wanted in order for themselves to evolve, right? It isn't just "oh this is a hardship," it's "well, time to genocide Pascal before we leave this shithole"

>>386970948
I agree that the 2B/9S relationship didn't really have the same weight but I don't think that was the point
Nier is sad because he throws away the future of the world just to save his daughter while Automata is sad because the androids don't have a future at all and they just want their existences to mean something. The 2B/9S relationship is just emphasizing the point. I love them both but I honestly got more out of Automata.

I love that it presents itself as generic Ghost In The Shell type fare and then immediately expands into something way more poignant and interesting

>>386971957
>specifically seem to target machines outside of the network
All little societies with disconnected machines are parts of social experiments.
It doesn't specifically seeks to destroy them, only if it's needed for further understanding of human concepts. Entire forest kingdom decided to go into resource unit after the death of their king and N2 welcomed them.
In Pascal's case the experiment was testing limits of his pacifism as well as what child machines are going to do when educated about the concept of fear so it was necessary to annihilate their society.

>>386970948
>We just didn't get to see enough progression between 2B/9S--
Because the whole point is that she loved him for years before game events, retard.
It's not a "development", game simply gradually unveils what's really going on between them.

>>386972159
Automata is straight uplifting because main characters show that androids are capable of finding their reason to live, even if at the verge of death.
Reminder that in novel all remaining Pods switch sides and help 042 and 153 to break free from YoRHa programming. It's a beginning of their own future.

>>386972335
Yes but that isn't emphasized properly within the game. As such their relationship comes off as shallow until you are given a brief explanation in a single line at the end of the last endings. The problem is that the narrative structure never does anything to actually show us their relationship at anything other than 0% or 100%. I mean, Nier had a relationship that almost entirely exists predating the game's events but they still take the time to give you relatable moments by showing us instead of telling us. Automata fails to invoke as much emotional response from that aspect of the story due to this. The pods do a better job showing emotional turmoil than the Androids do because we actually get to see the process.

>>386968002
;-;

>>386972335
Not him but goddamn I'm stupid
I didn't get that 2B and 9S knew each other before the first mission at the factory and he just didn't realize because she had to kill him
That's grim

>>386972545
I thought it was pretty heavy/depressing that the androids wanted to survive and make their existence mean something even knowing that they were the last of their kind and were destined for excinction.
Never thought of it as being uplifting but that's actually interesting

Also - I didn't know that there was a novel. Is it kind of an accompaniment like Grimoire Nier or is it an actual novel?

>>386972985
They are short stories to supplement the game, just like Grimoire Nier. And yeah, Automata is incredibly more hopeful and happy compared to any of Taro's other works.
https://medium.com/@khodazat/nier-novella-the-flame-of-prometheus-bdb8738933cf#.cyoqkjfkk

>>386971713
Nice meme. But you're right. It is.
You can either be a cynical bitch about it in order to look smug on the internet or you can go in with an open mind and appreciate that Kojima tried something audacious and totally different even if it doesn't work 100% of the time. Your call

>>386972793
>Yes but that isn't emphasized properly within the game.
There's a shitload of clues about it throughout the entire game and even in weapon stories, and it's done quite well.
The very beginning with 2B suddenly getting emotional over a guy she met 10 minutes ago despite the fact she was an ice queen when her entire squad died should've warned you that there's clearly something weird in their relationships. As well as when she says to him that his voice is calming out of nowhere during the maintenance.
And from there the game only picks up, showing clear moments of her extreme concern over his well-being with weak attempts to distance herself from him which are especially obvious on japanese dub.
When route C came, it was perfectly understandable that those two share a deep connection.
>Automata fails to invoke as much emotional response
No, anon, it's merely you who managed to miss a shitload of clues along the way.

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>>386972985
>Also - I didn't know that there was a novel. Is it kind of an accompaniment like Grimoire Nier or is it an actual novel?
There's side materials Grimoire Noir-style and straight novelization, but first Nier had one too, it was just never translated.

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People throwing the word art around like it's a measure of quality, like it's a status to achieve.

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>>386972985
>I didn't get that 2B and 9S knew each other before the first mission at the factory and he just didn't realize because she had to kill him
There's a lot of dots for you to connect, anon.

>>386966730
So you think the only merit to Souls is how difficult it is?

>>386973667
Yeah I didn't learn my lesson from the first game, I should've gone through the sidequests and weapon stories and all that a little more carefully before I rushed to the end. Still enjoyed it though so oh well

>>386967665
2013?

>>386973287
I think you are struggling with something here-- if I came out on stage and said, "Here are two people in love and here is why they love each other" and then another actor comes out and "kills" one of the two, you may say that is "sad," but it lacks emotional punch. It is much better if you show the two falling in love and one sacrificing for the other before the end. Automata does way too much telling and not enough showing. In response to this criticism, all you are doing is plugging your ears and telling me to read weapon stories. That doesn't actually show their relationship in any impactful or meaningful way.

Do you guys know any nice place/website where I can buy figures of Automata characters? High quality, well made, possible to import.

>>386962653
The co-director admitted to dumbing down the gameplay for RPGfags.

>>386974305
>Automata does way too much telling and not enough showing.
You're quite literally blind and most likely skipped majority of side quests.

>>386967018
>it's the worst crazy game ever made, including western dogshit like Lords of Shadow
>worse than LoS2's familiarity system
Oh God no.

But the original Nier has better gameplay.
Automata has too many boss fights against Adam and Eve and not enough against unique mecha bosses.

>>386978031
>But the original Nier has better gameplay.
You're so full of shit.

>>386978591
>with the exception of the suits of armor, every boss is unique
>almost every magic ability you get is useful
>gameplay changes in style frequently so it never gets old
>combat is just a slightly weaker Zelda
>enemies are actually slightly challenging
Meanwhile Automata has Adam and Eve over and over again and the enemies are all easy except for bosses on any difficulty under Hard. And if you pick Hard, not only do enemies become more agressive, but you die in one to two hits. Sure, the original Nier wasn't balanced properly for its difficulty levels either, but at least fights still presented a challenge on Normal.

>>386979283
>gameplay changes in style frequently so it never gets old
>dumb gimmicks that have nothing to do with the core gameplay aren't cancer

>combat is just a slightly weaker Zelda
Zelda's combat is laughable.

>>386976603
Even the sidequests didn't show that much to make you believe those two were madly in love - comrades at best.

Other guy is right, Automata just handled its good ideas very poorly.

>>386966730
Go run around Sinister Pthumeru Ihyll if you're so tough.

>>386973550
The problem is gamers are fucking illiterate concerning their own medium and others as well.

Automata has strong themes even if the delivery is shoddy, and sadly that alone puts it head and shoulders over most videogame plots which are just excuses for gameplay.

In the case of Taro's "games" everything is an excuse for the story.

>>386979428
Zelda's combat is fantastic. The games give you a huge amount of control over how you attack and most enemies don't let you just walk up to them and attack them. Nier's is weaker because it loses that sense of control you get from Zelda (moving the analog stick forward while attacking to lunge, standing still to horizontally swing your sword, running forward while attacking to vertically strike, etc). There's a lot less moving around and waiting for an opening in Nier, but the core gameplay is still very much Zelda-like.
Perhaps the comparison isn't best to say the combat is just Zelda, but rather the overall gameplay is similar. (you get different special attacks as you progress through different themed areas in a semi open-world where completing tasks opens up new parts of the world with melee sword combat)

But "The Void" (2008) by Ice-Pick Lodge already proved this.

>>386979615
>Automata has strong themes
No.

>games are about gameplay
Imagine that.

>>386979615
While Automata has a pretty strong philosophical backbone, it pales in comparison to good stuff from other mediums.

Bloodborne, for example, BTFOs Automata, both thematically and gameplay-wise. And Miyazaki handled the Taro approach of using gameplay and game world to reinforce the themes better.

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>vidya
>art

>>386979791
"strong" as in prominent, I'm not going to argue whether it was effective or not. IMO only ending E really got to me, the rest was whatever.

& Yea we're not disagreeing on anything lol, Automata in particular sold me on the fact that art games are bullshit. Design & mechanics > narrative.

Besides that the best games will get their themes across THROUGH the mechanics rather than strict narrative, Dark Souls is a good example.

>>386979954
>movies are art
>television shows are art
>music is art
>books are art
>drawings/paintings are art
>sculptures are art
>but a medium that utilizes all of these prior elements (in most cases) and comes with the advantage of interactivity isn't art
????

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>>386979954
*blocks your path*

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No, this is

>>386979781
nier is for massive casuals, they don't know shit about any non-meme game.

>>386979872
I agree on pretty much everything bro, although I feel like The Old Hunters was a little more strong in its story than the main Bloodborne.

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Video games are a superior form of storytelling to film because film typically only has 2 hours to form a plot, introduce the characters, and build the world while video games typically have 30-60.

>>386979746
>Zelda's combat is fantastic.
>what is DMC
>what is Ninja Gaiden
>what is God Hand
>what is Wonderful 101
Are you retarded.

>The games give you a huge amount of control over how you attack and most enemies don't let you just walk up to them and attack them.
That's like 99% of Zelda combat prior to Wind Waker (which added parrying) and BotW (which is just a poor man's hack and slash).

>getting more attacks as you go through a game is a huge milestone
What stone have you been under for the past 16 years.

>>386962653
This is proof that you don't have taste

>>386980251
Books have them both beat, and the endgame is poetry.

>>386980292
>what is DMC
>what is Ninja Gaiden
Also games with fantastic gameplay.

Video games are not art.

>>386980168
It's so odd because The Void in particular is a game where the gameplay is in absolutely no way deemphasized and even is the primary mode of conveying its content, it's a wonder it's so obscure... Wonder if it could be because so many people give up on it.

>>386980115
>but a medium that utilizes all of these prior elements (in most cases) and comes with the advantage of interactivity isn't art
Interactivity has nothing to do story quality. Games are closer to puzzles to be solved than books/film/etc. They're fun toys.

>>386978031
The original Nier literally makes you play through the same game three times in a row to get the true ending so I wouldn't hold it up as a shining pillar of game design

Also
>>386979283
>combat is just a slightly weaker Zelda
haah waaw

>>386962653
Video games aren't art, they're made of art. Get over it, you faggot game journalist. Also Nier was good

nier automata literally lost my game file and reverted it back to an older one and lost me about 20 hours of gameplay before the first ending

feels really bad

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>>386962653
>normal is way too easy
>hard is just getting one shot everytime

>>386979428
>didn't like the genre mixups in the original Nier
You are the cancer.

>>386980545
You can thank the ridiculous abundance of healing for that.

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>>386979467
>2B screams in panic when 9S gets hurt and behaves like a panicking mess when he goes missing to a point even Pod notices it, constantly tries to make him avoid being too inquisitive, goes full yandere mode when Adam hurts him, gets jealous in Amnesia, has quite a few cute and sad dialogues with him agreeing to go on a date with him after game events, has a mental breakdown when he gets infected and selflessly sacrifices herself for him the moment Bunker goes down in flames
>according to anon, game doesn't show much

>>386980439
That's because Ice Pick Lodge is as close to Yoko Taro as the West has except Ice Pick Lodge isn't a meme at this point

>>386980570
>I'd rather experience many shitty types of gameplay than a well developed combat system
>in a game whose primary gameplay is combat

>>386980630
I haven't played any Taro games since Nier but damn can this guy only write in anime tropes? The number of sacrifices in that game was brain numbing.

>>386980645
But IPL's games are actually good and well-designed as games in and of themselves, especially The Void which is entirely built around one very simple mechanic, yet still is one of the most challenging games on the market.

>>386980630
It doesn't. And honestly it can easily be confused with 2B not wanting to lose another comrade, since its been shown how much Androids can feel for their fellow fighters.

The bare bone particulars of 9S/2B's relationships arent shown in any substantial capacity.

>>386980645
>Ice Pick Lodge is as close to Yoko Taro as the West has
you know nothing, it's fine, just don't pretend you do.

Videogames have been art even before the internet was a thing.

>>386979781
Pathologic is better.

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>>386980826
>go as far as actually showing dumb anon some examples of how much he missed
>he only can shit out "It doesn't" as a pale semblance of counter argument
Okay anon.

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>>386980453
>interactivity has nothing to do with story quality
On the contrary, interactivity can help someone become more engrossed in a fictional world and also means that the plot of something moves at the pace of the person consuming the plot. The plot only moves when you do, and that level of control can make someone feel more like they're a part of the plot themselves, which in turn can affect how one views a particular character. Interactivity can also mean that one can discover different parts of a world and come to an understanding of it in a less linear, more natural fashion, as if you're interacting and learning about things in the real world.

Only SOME games are more similar to puzzles than books/film/etc. Depending upon the game's purpose, what its hoping to achieve, and what content is within the game, that statement may or may not be true. A game like Tetris is more of a puzzle to be solved for example, as its primary purpose is to figure out how to place colored blocks without stacking them out of place. But a title like, say, the aforementioned Nier Automata, doesn't focus so much on giving the player something to solve (perhaps during sections of combat), but more of a world to understand and characters to grow attached to. Toys generally do not have worlds to explore and learn about nor do they have characters to get attached to (beyond a surface value character name, such as Barbie or GI Joe). Toys do not change and have any sort of beginning, middle, and end structure.

>>386981043
>person praising nier automata posts a newfag identifier image
always happens

>>386980837
Suck the farts one-by-one out of my asshole

>>386980761
Other than the combat Nier + Automata aren't horribly designed as games like everyone seems to be implying
Automata did away with a lot of the genre-switching which is one of my big gripes with it but the way every dungeon had its own unique mechanics was my favorite part of Nier

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>>386980630
There are a lot of small neat things in the game with regards to the characters psyche's.

I fell for the meme and it was great.

>>386980456
>The original Nier literally makes you play through the same game three times in a row to get the true ending so I wouldn't hold it up as a shining pillar of game design

nier does the same thing? only 2 times granted but replaying the game is shit regardless

>>386980917
Wrong, The Void is a far more coherent and tightly focused piece from a design standpoint that is, even though they're more or less equal in writing, narrative structure and design.

>>386980456
No, the original Nier makes you play the game once and then half the game two more times. Automata makes you play the WHOLE game twice and then gives you different content.

>>386980826
the only basis for this stuff that's actually in the game is the cruel oath weapon stories and the line at the end from A2 and yet the dickriders come out in force acting as though taro can write a story

>suddenly BIG RED GIRLS
>two hours before the game ends

>>386962653
I adore this game but it's easy and shallow as fuck, the chips make it even easier to break.

Good character controls, nothing worth fighitng, so some gameplay was sacrificed.

>>386965534
Stay mack PCbro

>>386979781
I'm convinced that IPL is some kind of weird cult rather than a real videogame company.

>>386981130
>>386981145
Nier makes you play through the whole game plus half the game two more times with almost no variation other than some additional cutscenes.
Automata makes you play half the game twice but with substantially different mechanics and a significant change towards the end when 9S gets held hostage.

Also Nier's second half just rehashes the exact same locations except the thing you're hunting for is different this time. That annoyed the shit out of me and I have no idea how everyone seemed/seems to give it a pass for that

>>386981508
In both games the different routes are just glorified chapter breaks and could easily just be one story. Well, maybe not with Nier's Ending B.

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>>386962653
good games

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>>386981112
>my argument is falling apart because i'm quite literally retarded
>QUICK! SAY SOMETHING ABOUT HIS REACTION IMAGE!
Here's another one just for you, anon.

>>386981365
Well they're kind of both Tbh, one of the few truly genius developers out there.

I'm playing it right now on Hard and honestly the combat is pretty disappointing by Platinum standards.

I understand an ARPG isnt going to have combat as deep as a pure action game but holy shit the dodge in this game is so powerful it turns the fights into a joke, to remedy this they make hits taken eat almost all your HP which just feels really lazy.

They could've easily made the windows a bit tighter in this game and combat would feel more engaging.

>>386965534
>controls are still fucking dogshit.
lolllLLLL git gud faggaboy control's are litralley perfect just have too not be a fag

>>386981145
>Automata makes you play the WHOLE game
it makes you play the first half twice, retard
and with a significant differences

>>386967018
>A Nier game
>Crazy

>>386980115
Videogames main creative force are sales. Some vidya can approach art like Pathologic >>386980120
or the Team Ico games, but the main purpose is to be mainstream entertainment. Also, now vidya doesn't even have balls anymore, like the new Call of Duty.

>>386981692
How does that dog noclip the fucking stick through the right handrail?

>>386981730
Or actually given the enemies more than a basic attack.

>>386981730
Automata is in a really weird place because by Platinum standards it's mediocre but by Yoko Taro standards it's practically DMC3
So you've got two equally passionate fanbases who are going to come out of this game with very different and very strong opinions

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>>386962903
FPBP

>>386981145
Going through the repeat content literally takes two hours. It only seems longer (ironically) because of all the new sidequests that get added in the middle of it.

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>>386980645
>West
>Ice Pick Lodge

>>386982045
>by Platinum standards it's mediocre
Not really, the only truly exemplary action games Platinum has made have been the first Bayonetta and Wonderful 101 both of which were directed by Kamiya and it shows when you compare those two to mediocre trash like MGR or Bayonetta 2.

I'd say Automata is about par for the course for platinum: style over substance but controls nicely.

>>386982145
>Russia
>Not part of the West

>>386965853
>8 hours
Did this retard stop at Route A?

>>386981058
>On the contrary, interactivity can help someone become more engrossed in a fictional world
No it doesn't. Writing quality (and acting/directing in the case of visual mediums) are the only things that influence story quality. Playing as the murderer in a murderer simulator, spending most of your time doing nothing that has any connection with the plot, is a detriment.

>that level of control can make someone feel more like they're a part of the plot themselves
What a stupid fucking idea. Who gives a shit if you're 'part' of the plot or not, that doesn't influence quality.

>Depending upon the game's purpose
The purpose of games is gameplay. Games with bad gameplay are shit games.

>But a title like, say, the aforementioned Nier Automata, doesn't focus so much on giving the player something to solve (perhaps during sections of combat)
That is the primary focus of the game.

>Toys generally do not have worlds to explore
They're not worlds, they're virtual playgrounds.

>nor do they have characters to get attached to
You're retarded. Game 'characters' are shit compared to every other medium.

>>386982236
Is Bayonetta 2 really not good? I heard amazing things and straight up almost bought a Wii U just for that game
Kamiya being at the helm for those two really does say a lot about the studio though. I think a lot of people (myself included) tend to kind of associate Platinum as a whole with the games they make at their peak while forgetting that they also have a tendency to churn out some really really average shit.

>>386982294
Don't know how anyone could beat Route A in 8 hours on their first playthrough

>>386982263
They are certainly not quite western nor they are completely eastern, their entire history is being influenced by both West and East so calling them a part of the West is really not remotely true, especially when West tries to alienate them as much as it can.

>>386982456
If you're not fucking around fighting robots all day it's rather easy since most of them don't even attack you in part A.

>>386962653
but the gameplay sucks
no one plays nier automata for the gameplay

>>386982407
>Is Bayonetta 2 really not good?
It's not bad but in terms of being an action game it's pretty mediocre and doesn't even begin to hold a candle to the first one or games like DMC3/4, God Hand and NGB.

Bayonetta 2 has what are some of the most bizarre design choices I've ever seen, in the first game the combat was not balanced around Witch Time it was a crutch to help ease players into the game and even then only certain moves from enemies would trigger it, while in Bayonetta 2 you cannot do anything without Witch Time and I mean that quite literally. The game is entirely balanced around Witch Time and this new feature Umbran Climax (which is also a garbage addition but I won't really get into it). This severely limits your options in combat since it means if you want to launch an enemy you need to be in Witch Time leading to combat going Bait out attack -> Dodge -> Witch Time -> Combo and it's incredibly dull. Then the humanoid bosses are some of the worst I've ever fought because they will infinitely dodge everything you throw at them unless you're in Witch Time.

Watch these three videos, they concisely sum up everything wrong with the game in a few minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7jipey9Evw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wnswf_UMsY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMz6SpKQO4I

Platinum are incredibly overrated, they're only true masterpiece games in terms of gameplay came from Mikami and Kamiya at the helm who both came from Clover. I don't think MGR, Bayo 2 and Nier: Automata are bad games from a gameplay stand point but they leave a lot to be desired when I could just go play God Hand or DMC3.

>>386982592
You'd have to be running from story marker to story marker with no regard for anything else in the game

>>386982384
But the gameplay of most games is directly related to the plot. In the case of the original Nier, the discovery that you've been murdering humans is directly related to the plot in that its pushing that you've been actively working towards ruining mankind's chance at survival by continuing to progress, killing Grimoire Noir, and stopping the humans that are so desperate for peace and gaining back their original bodies. You in particular, for acting out upon the gameplay itself, are the one who causes the fall of the world. The plot of the game would not function without its gameplay, or at least rather, the impact intended upon the realization that you ruined everything would be lost in any other form. The effort spent on the game adds to the effect upon the player caused by this realization.

And playgrounds do not have a beginning, middle, and end plot structure with an explanation on the culture of the world (explanations on currency, races, customs, etc) and as such, the in-game "worlds" that games have cannot be compared to playgrounds.
>the characters are shit compared to every other medium
Oh? You mean to say that a film with no background given to its characters has superior characters to a game that tries to give its characters reasons and history behind who they are and what they do?

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>>386966798
>>386967212
Sure is /v/eddit in here.

>>386980115
I think games are art, but this argument is terrible.

If games are only considered art because they contain other mediums that are art, rather than being art based on their own merits, then they aren't really art, they're just a vessel for art.

Like, we say a painting is art, but that doesn't mean the canvas is art. The canvas doesn't become art just because it has a painting on it.

>>386982623
I did and I enjoyed it.

>>386982236
Putting Bayo 2 and MGR on the same level as Nier Automata in terms of combat is selling the former games extremely short. Bayonetta 2's overuse of Witch Time is easily its biggest issue, but it's still a very fun game, despite fuckers like Sloth. MGR's combat is basic, but the fundamentals are strong and it has some seriously great bosses.

Automata's combat however is not just really basic, the fundamentals are also nowhere near as strong, the most interesting thing about it is its bullet hell aspects. The actual melee fights are very barebones and the game really just has the flash with none of the substance.

>>386967665
Nier came out in 2010 faggot

>>386962903
Pretty much this.
Nier Automata is filled with text boxes, cutscenes, cinematic gameplay moments (2B breaking down) and tedious backtracking.
I don't know why this wasn't posted in the OP, in Nier Automata, all 'artistic' moments take gameplay away from the player in some form, Bloodborne does not (apart from cutscenes but that's a given).

>>386983037
>But the gameplay of most games is directly related to the plot.
Because the plot is written afterwards to try to add some shred of context to the gameplay. No cares about saving the princess for the three billionth time.

>The plot of the game would not function without its gameplay
>no story could possibly have the protagonists killing things and the act of killing things later coming back to biting them
>like in the epic of Gilgamesh, ie the first piece of recorded literature ever
Again, you're retarded.

>or at least rather, the impact intended
Playing as the murderer does not affect the 'impact' of their actions in the least. Chigurh's murders are brutal and shocking on their own merits and portrayal, not because we control him.

>The effort spent on the game adds
Nothing. You're praising, at best, a cheap psychological trick (investment through time spent rather than quality of the work).

>And playgrounds do not have a beginning, middle, and end plot structure
>he still thinks of campaigns as a story to be played out
>not a series of encounters and mechanics to be learned and enjoyed that could be placed in about any order
Stahp.

>the culture of the world
A dumpster fire.

>the in-game "worlds" that games have cannot be compared to playgrounds.
>playgrounds
>area with fun things to play with
>game worlds
>areas with fun things to play with
You lost me.

>You mean to say that a film with no background given to its characters
Nice strawman.

>has superior characters to a game that tries
Yes. Keyword in that sentence being 'tries'. Movies characters kick the shit out of vidya characters, even simple ones. Automata is a bunch of nonsensical anime tropes with some more edge tossed on. Its 'story' has all the depth of a puddle.

>>386983579
>Putting Bayo 2 and MGR on the same level as Nier Automata in terms of combat is selling the former games extremely short.
Fair point but I think all three games could use a bit more in terms of options, my biggest complaint with all three is that it's very repetitive which might sound weird for an action game but even something like God Hand where you'll always want a Breaker, launcher and some sort of jab gives you a bunch of unique moves that all fulfill those roles which make combat still feel fresh even if you're going through a lot of the same motions for most of the game.
>but it's still a very fun game
It depends on what you're going for, if you're looking to Pure Plat all the levels then it really isn't because of how restrictive the game is and on Infinite Climax it's not fun at all, there's nothing fun about enemies that will infinitely dodge everything you throw at them. Even enemies that would occasionally do this in the first one like Grace and Glory could still be approached without Witch Time evident by the fact that Infinite Climax in that game removes the feature entirely. Bayonetta 2 also has an over reliance on aerial bosses which even further exacerbate the game's flaws because it entirely removes an axis of movement to where all you have to do is activate Witch Time/Umbran Climax and mash.

I don't know I just really didn't care for the game much, even worse was that I kept reading everywhere how it improved upon everything from the first game which is true in a lot of ways but the combat was severely gutted which is the only thing that matters in a game like that to me. I'll reemphasize, I don't think it's bad but it offers nothing that other games don't do better. Wonderful 101 felt closer to Bayonetta 2 to me than Bayonetta 2 itself did.

>>386962653
Where do I grind levels past 70 level? I need some to defeat Emil.

>>386962653

With such a large part of the story relying on a contrivance (2B'a affection for 9S), you can't really call Automata "art"

>>386983879
Bloodborne only has 23 minutes of actual in game cutscenes, which firmly puts it in the sheer ludonium tier.

>>386980221
TOH was essential for all the Lacanian stuff Bloodborne explores desu

And it also has that qt edgelord maria

>>386984402
Kill the statue in the amusement park.

>>386984402

Golden rabbit in the amusement park. With experience gain chips, you can easily get three levels at a time killing him

>>386984848
>>386984789
Thanks. I'll do that then.

>>386984150
It is a nice strawman though. You made a very general statement. That general statement includes the extremes.

And no, I won't stop. Explain to me how a playground can be compared to, say, Final Fantasy XII's Ivalice. To explain what I mean, in Final Fantasy XII, the game explains to you (through gameplay no less), that Chops equate to your ranking in the city of Archades. The more Chops you have, the higher economic rank you have in the city and as such the more places you can go. Those with more chops are the bourgeoisie. In addition, Archades has a separate smaller outskirts known as Old Archades, which are the slums of the city full of those with no chops. This is the economic structure of Archades. In addition, other cities, such as Rabanastre, have similar treatment. In that city, the higher you literally are, the richer you are. The underground Lowtown is for the poor. The middle class live on the ground, and the rich live in the sky. This is explained to the player by exploring the city and paying attention to the environments and the people in the environments. Beyond this, there are explanations of the culture of various peoples; Vierra resemble that of traditional elves in that they (generally) live in the forest, are proficient in the use of bows, and can interact with the forest on a personal level as well as live significantly longer than the normal human. There are also urban legends spread by NPCs, such as of a Chubacabra-like creature in the city of Bhujerba and explanations of how food is aquired, as the creatures of the world are different from that of Earth's. There's an explanation on other peoples as well. In what playground can you find and learn all this? How is this fair to compare this to a playground?

>>386966730
>he hasn't played the chalice dungeons

>>386962653
Except the gameplay is even more dumbed down that MGR

>>386984150
>>386984891
Also, the respective titles brutal and shocking for different reasons. Being a part of a murder is different from reading in a well-written context.
>Movie characters kick the shit out of vidya characters, even simple ones.
Explain to me how, say, Megatron (Transformers) is a better more well written villain than the Shadowlord (Nier)

>>386962903
8/10 at best

>>386966741
MGRs combat is way more precise that Nier:As

>>386984891
Wrong. When Archades invaded, the forced all the citizens to go live below and then purchase back their houses.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAKcVRv-nrc

>>386984891
>It is a nice strawman though.
>logical fallacies
>nice
No.

>That general statement includes the extremes.
And most of those extremes still have movies winning by a landslide with ease.

>Explain to me how a playground can be compared to, say, Final Fantasy XII's Ivalice.
Both contain playthings and are made for children.

>Chops
How fucking desperate are you. They're a MacGuffin for a meh gameplay segment. They have no depth nor add anything thematically.

>In addition, Archades has a separate smaller outskirts known as Old Archades
For gameplay purposes.

>The middle class live on the ground, and the rich live in the sky.
Except for the fact the tops of the food chain (royalty and Vayne) also live on the ground. You're reaching (again). The game doesn't even bother to be consistent.

>Beyond this, there are explanations of the culture of various peoples
Yeah, visual variety. It helps for toys to be pretty.

>There's an explanation on other peoples as well.
Which is all super generic and emotionally unmoving.

>>386985082
>Being a part of a murder is different from reading in a well-written context.
>pressing the button to initiate the murder is different from the act itself being well written
And you're defending game stories...because?

>Explain to me how, say, Megatron (Transformers) is a better more well written villain than the Shadowlord (Nier)
Far superior voice acting (performance), for starters. Not pretending to be something he's not (something with actual depth) and embracing what he is (a dumb popcorn movie villain).

>>386986206
>a combo video made in debug mode doing things you'd never do in normal gameplay against lone enemies means it's good
Fun fact, guy who made this plays the same as everyone else on Very Hard (spamming pod attacks, light attacks with small swords and dodging constantly).

>>386965853
>8 hours
Ok.

>>386986952
>They have no depth nor add anything thematically
They make the world seem more real and easier to understand by the consumer as they explain an economic system thus allowing the consumer to make real world comparisons and gain a deeper understanding of the particular area's cutlure. Chops aren't useful for the game from a gameplay perspective since you just run around the city doing nothing of value instead of moving or finding a way to sneak in straight to the area where Cid resided. Theoretically speaking, the developers could've found a way to get straight to the player sneaking in instead of using chops. Does it not then imply that the chops weren't a mistake of poor game design, but rather, a method and tool of adding some depth to the setting?
>Vayne
I was speaking of Rabanastre. Vayne spends most of his time in Archades. In Rabanastre, Vayne is on the ground during parades, but the big castle and royal architecture reach high.
>Not pretending to be something he's not
I'm not sure I understand this argument. The Shadowlord is nothing more than a father who wants to see his daughter again with similar ambitions to the protagonist, however also with the purpose of being a tool to assist in returning mankind to its former state, while Megatron is evil for the sake of gaining power and being evil. The Shadowlord can't be described as a popcorn villain. Its arguable that he didn't do a good job of being more than just another villain, but isn't it better to try and to fail at being something more than to just play it safe with something simple, tried and true?

>>386965404
sta zitto dio cane

>>386987150
all I did was post a picture and a link
I didn't even reply to anyone
I just thought it was cool that there is the possibility to do these things, but I know you can just run around shooting the pod forever, mashing l2 when in trouble for perfect dodges and using instant heals that don't interrupt you or have recovery
I even found myself feeling that there was too little of a challenge later on in the game so I changed up my chips to something more fun
you probably could play like this without debug if you deliberately used a shit weapon and no damage or shockwave chips

>>386968858
>That's the point
because it's bad on purpose doesn't excuse it

>MGS2's story was deliberately made to be campy nonsense so that nobody would take it seriously and everyone would focus on the ideas behind it instead
the ideas behind MGS2 were poorly explained