Sonic never really worked as a game, prove me wrong. hard mode:

>prove my opinion wrong

Not how it works

>>386960206
I get it, you are a desperate Nintendo shill who seeks for (You)s. Have one.

>>386960427

>opinion

An opinion is "I like Sonic" or "I dislike Sonic", not "these mechanics objectively don't work"

>>386960206
>The 2D games were charming because they had colourful levels and characters, good music and the gameplay was pretty novel at the time, but nowadays the shitty level design is incredibly apparent.
Sonic 1 on the game gear has some pretty good level design for the most part.
>The 3D games don't even need as in depth an analysis, they're either clunky broken games like the Adventure series that had no business being that janky when shit like N64 3D platformers had been around for years, and the ones that do work just basically play themselves.
>wah wah, I clipped on this one part in the level, screw this shit.

>>386960681
>objectively

ur dumb

>>386960206
What a fucking baby. Git gud.

>>386960757
>>wah wah, I clipped on this one part in the level, screw this shit.

I've finished Adventure DX twice and beat Adventure 2 a couple days ago, both on the gamecube. The gameplay is just horrible, it's not about graphical glitches. Sonic suddenly stops any time you hit anything which breaks the flow of the level, if you're not doing exactly what the designers intended you just awkwardly move around trying to hopefully go the right way, Knuckles goes WAY too fast when he should move way slower since his stages are all about exploration, the chaos radar is a fucking joke, and tails/eggman stages are just a fucking bore and that constant beeping of the missile lock is annoying as fuck. The gameplay is amateur as fuck, it looks like the dev team had never played a 3D platformer before. Playing something like Rayman 2 that came out some 2 full years before SA2 on the same console just makes it obvious how little of an idea sonic team had when they were making the game.

I loved the game when I was younger, but I'm 100% aware now that my fond memories are just nostalgia.

>>386960206
>The game has tons of death traps, which forces you to slow down and time your jumps, except sonic moves really fucking slow when he's starting to gain speed, so 80% of the time you're just moving extremely slow and jumping around
Spindash

>>386961441
>playing DX

With sonic in adventure, it's smooth for the most part once you get a handle on the physics, stop complaining and take the time to learn it.
>Knuckles goes WAY too fast
Just glide or don't go full speed, simple fix.

SA2 is worse than SA 1 because of most of your complaints, but complaining about something like flow when it's not that hard to learn is just a scapegoat.

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>mfw Sonic is literally the 90s Dark Souls

>>386960681
>Objective
I don't think you know what that word means

>>386961906

You're describing ways of overcoming the shitty gameplay, which I know how to do otherwise I wouldn't have beaten those games.

You shouldn't have to circumvent shitty game design by "learning to adapt", that's lazy.

>>386962027

Except you're able to play Dark Souls as it was intended from start to finish on your first playthrough.

>>386962061

Enjoying the games is subjective; bad game design is objective.

Fun is subjective, broken mechanics are objective. You may or may not find those games fun, but they're still badly made from a game design point of view.

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>>386960206
The problem with your argument of "Sonic never really worked" is that all of these complaints are pretty much exclusive to Sonic 1 and were (mostly) fixed in 2 and entirely fixed in 3. I won't even try to defend Sonic 1, but go play 2 and 3 then come back.

>>386962259
>You shouldn't have to circumvent shitty game design by "learning to adapt"
That's literally everything in life, you learn what you're doing wrong and fix your mistakes. You're the lazy one.

>>386962449

One thing is having to learn how to play a game, and another is having to learn how to overcome shit game design.

I could just try to learn how to deal with Sonic '06 bullshit, for example, but why would I? The game is a buggy mess. A good game doesn't force you to adapt to its broken controls, it just feels and plays well.

>>386962334

That might be true, I made the thread after beating the original Sonic, but I remember level design in 2 and 3 not being that much different. I'll play through 2 now, maybe you're right.

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I sincerely do not understand the "sonic is too hard" critique. I beat them all when I was around 6-10 years old and now I can go through the entire game without dying once. I can understand that it might be challenging to someone playing for the first time but if you compare it to Dark Souls which is praised for it's easy to learn but hard to master game design Sonic is actually very forgiving. As long as you hold on to one single ring and keep retrieving it when you get hit you literally can't die unless you fall in a pit.

There are traps like in mystic cave zone where you fall down on the spikes and can't get out, but they are very few and far between throughout all the classic games. Limited lives and continues was the norm at that point, Mario had this too. I agree that there haven't been a truly great Sonic game since they moved to 3D (although I'd argue Sonic Colours and Generations are great, but most people seem to disagree) but this "Sonic was never good" meme needs to fucking stop.

>>386962718
I'm not saying it's good at all, but you can't say something is shit because of a single problem.
Plus, unlike sonic 06, there are simple ways around controlling sonic.

>>386963072

I'm not saying the games are too hard, I'm saying the whole idea behind "going fast" goes against

>>386963541

>you can't say something is shit because of a single problem

I didn't, I listed a bunch of problems.

>>386963695

Derp, ate half the sentence.

>I'm saying the whole idea behind "going fast" goes against

the level design of the games.

>>386963695
Sonic on the Genesis is a platformer, it was fast in comparison to other platformers at the time. You're not supposed to just run.

>>386963695
>I didn't, I listed a bunch of problems.
>The 3D games don't even need as in depth an analysis, they're either clunky broken games like the Adventure series that had no business being that janky when shit like N64 3D platformers had been around for years, and the ones that do work just basically play themselves.
Yea, sure

>>386964075

I listed a bunch of reasons here

>>386961441

>>386964046

I know, but the gameplay doesn't reflect that. Sonic's movement speed when he's starting to build momentum is pretty slow, and makes the slower paced segments feel sluggish, while the really fast parts either play themselves, or give you no way of reacting to danger unless you know exactly what's coming from having fallen for the trap before.

Now, this is on Sonic The Hedgehog 1, which I just finished. Maybe this was adressed in 2 and 3 like someone commented, I'll know for a fact in a couple hours when I beat them.

Backseat game designers from reddit who started with the PS1 or PS2 with 20/20 hindsight are the worst.

>>386964465

Except people were criticizing Sonic for the same reasons back when it came out. The thing is no one gave a fuck about game critics back then because the internet wasn't around. Sonic was a mascot and a marketing strategy from the beginning, it didn't NEED good game design: the character sold the game.

The brand was a huge success with kids, and it sold a lot, but people had been comparing Super Mario World tight gameplay to Sonic's cheap design since way back.

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>>386960206
>Wah wah Sonic 1 AKA the Sonic 3 and Knuckles Alpha proof-of-concept is too hard wah wah wah
>P-prove me wrong faggots. Objective reasoning only :3
>H-hard mode: don't tell me to stop being shit at platformers
wew lad

>>386964379
That's 2 more, both of which are knitpicks for sa 2.

>>386965146

How is something that makes the game annoying as fuck to play nitpicking? They're fair reasons as to why someone would consider the game bad, and I'm not alone in this, most people who play the game later in life with no nostalgia goggles cite exactly the same problems as reasons to why the game isn't really good.

>>386965083

I'm not really complaining about the difficulty, I beat the game just fine, but okay.

>>386960206
>It's shitty, arcade-like design mentality
>shitty
>arcade-like
Go back to your comfy kirby games

I'm just gonna post this every time I see these threads
https://youtu.be/af806FYJF-k

>>386965302
>Beat the game
>Complain about all Sonic games using "OBJECTIVE GAME-MAKER LOGIC AND REASONING GUYS I'M SERIOUS" without even PLAYING the other 2D games
>"The games are just shit and you guys can't see through your rose-tinted glasses"
Fucking kek. I bet next you're gonna tell me you were just baiting the whole time.

>>386964379
>Sonic's movement speed when he's starting to build momentum is pretty slow
No. And if you find this slow you can just jump
https://youtu.be/MrlQZHJ-E8k

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>>386965784
>The devs intentionally created a speedrunning route
What happened to this Sonic Team

>Le regurgitated e-celeb opinions
sonic isn't just about GOING FAST xDDD, it's about momentum and complex physics (at least for it's time)

>>386965302
1. Not a single thing about adventure
2. >woa chuckles is too fast fuck this game
>uggh, I hate these shooting stages, they're sooooooooooo sloooooooooooow

People don't like these games so much anymore because of the lack of substance and sonic stages. Fuck off with
>WOW I'M SO MUCH MORE SMARTER NOW THAT I'M AN ADULT
Any of these would've been legitimate complaints.
>tails gameplay is just sonic using flying to cheese stages
>amy, big and gamma were unnecessary
>perfect chaos was disappointing
>why'd they put tails in a mech
>the treasure hunt stages are too hard to navigate and the hints don't help much at all

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Decided to replay through a bunch of 2d Sonic this weekend for fun. I beat Sonic 1 with all six emeralds yesterday, god damn that Scrap Brain zone is tough.

Today I'm going through Sonic 1 for Master System, which is the same as Sonic 1 for Game Gear but with more visible screen area. I remember beating this game on the actual Game Gear as a kid, but I have no idea how I accomplished it. You can't see half the shit coming at you on the Game Gear screen and that system ate AA batteries like candy.

You don't get the emeralds through special stages, they're just hidden in secret areas on various levels throughout the game. Most of them involve tricky jumps with the game gear/master system's less-than-tight controls. If you miss one there is no way to go back and get it. Without a guide, it's almost impossible to find them all.

On this playthrough I probably won't bother with the emeralds, just want to get through all the levels and bosses for comparison. After this should I move on to Sonic 2 Genesis, or S2+K, or the next in the Game Gear series?

>>386960206
Ring collecting after being hit was a mistake, It made the game way to easy.

How come when any other platformer requires you to use finesse it's "challenging" but when Sonic does it it's a "death trap"?

>>386965569
This whole thread
Thanks based anon.

the gamegear sonic games were much better designed, but not as many people played them

>>386966245
If you don't care about scores, which is most normies, that is

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>>386960206
>I see a lot of people going "well, speed is a reward, you get to go fast if you're familiar with the level layout", well, hurr fucking durr, that is literally every single game ever made, speedrunning was a thing before Sonic came out. HAVING to fall into every single trap the game puts before you retrying multiple times just to be able to play the game as it was intended/advertised is a ridiculous notion.
but you don't? It's basic reflexes. What else I can say more than git gud to a person that cannot react to incoming danger? Do you complain also that attacks in DmC are too fast to avoid? Just stick to RPGs for god sake
also watch this >>386965569

u hev opinum

>>386966053
>What happened to this Sonic Team
I still want to know.
Even if you dislike the Adventure games you still had the great PSO.

>>386966245
Well I'm just glad you're not a game designer

>>386966284

Because the only thing fun about Sonic is going fast, other platformers dont have this problem. in Sonic the obstacles just prevent the fun. Sounds casual but you know I'm right. The most enjoyable levels are levels like Casino Night and Green Hill Zone that's basically just zooming around the level with all the pretty colors and music

Also, this might be more of a psychological thing, but whenever I play Sonic I feel like the levels almost push me forward and urge me to go fast. I know it sounds weird, but the angular, mechanical presentation of the worlds and the angles of the slopes seem to be saying "I dare you to take your time". It's like there is this weird force that is always pushing me to go as fast as possible

>>386967068

3d Sonic sounds just like what you want

racing game + platformer where you always see ahead

>>386966821

It's not basic reflexes when you literally can't react fast enough to what is coming. The platforming segments aren't hard, the enemies aren't hard, the only difficulty comes from trying to go fast without knowing what's ahead, and from falling for trap paths.

>>386965569

His point falls flat when it's really more about memorizing traps when trying to go fast than actually getting good.

If you get good at any other game, you'd be able to play a new level well.

In Sonic, you can't get good at the game, only at the specific levels.

If you were to hand me a "Castlevania 1 random level generator", I'd play it just fine, because I'm good at Castlevania.

If you were to hand anyone a "Sonic 2D level generator", everyone would play it slowly and take their time not to fall into traps, because they literally wouldn't be able to go fast without knowing what's coming.

Now, I'm not saying that is definitely a BAD thing, I understand Sonic fans enjoy mastering the levels and speeding through them as fast as possible, but for the player who's playing it for the first time, that sucks. The game shouldn't give you limited lives and make you lose ALL rings when hit if the core gameplay philosophy is based around trial and error.

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>>386966847
I fucking loved (and still love) Sonic Adventure DX because it was the perfect mix of 3D space and 2D speed. The issues it had were mostly technical and likely due to the limitations of the tech. You could generate so much fucking speed and use that speed to your advantage; accessing out of reach spots, speeding through levels, etc. It was literally 2D Sonic but in 3D, plus the overworlds were fun to run through, though they were void of enemies
Nowadays:
>Hold one button to make the on-rails action happen faster and with EPIC SPEED BLUR
I want to go back

It is a momentum based platformer. The games work and intended. Donkey Kong, Mario, Ristar, and so on have their own mechanics you have to adapt to.

If Sonic 1 was a shitty arcade like design game then the game wouldn't allow you to live so easily by just maintaining a single ring. In any video game you are expected to fail the further you get due to the player not knowing what sort of challenges are up ahead, and due to the ring mechanics the games are much more forgiving, unless you love to fling yourself into pits which is of your own doing. Maybe if you actually got better at the games you could keep your rings by the end of the level and activate the bonus stage at the end of each zones act 1 and 2 to gain continues and possibly lives since a continue is an additional three lives while the only draw back is that you start the zone from act 1 again.
>well, hurr fucking durr, that is literally every single game ever made, speedrunning was a thing before Sonic came out.
No one is talking about speed running. It is just that unlike a lot of other games that more knowledge you have about the level design the faster you really can beat them due to maintaining your speed and also using such slopes to gain speed or actually knowing when to press down. I play Sonic games here and there, mostly casually. I don't have the level layouts or enemy placements down at all. With that said, after playing the game a few times you get a feel of when you need to spin dash or when to do a jump rather than hoping you'll get anywhere by holding right.

>>386966219
You should play Castle of Illusion https://youtu.be/hVhZA1VFW54
Both versions.

>>386967068
lol, my favorite level is Metropolis (I know I'm minority) because going fast is trully a reward. And I really like the enemy placement.

>>386962259
the only problems that is objective in gaming are glitches and bugs

>>386967551
>Get hit by spikes on first playthrough
>Never get hit by those spikes again
Wow, what a fucking horrible way to design a game. You have to learn from your experiences? Fuck you, SEGA.

>>386967705

My point is you wouldn't be able to tell the spikes without getting hit by them first, which forces you to slow down and check for traps before moving on.

You literally proved my point.

>>386967618
I've beaten Genesis Castle of Illusion many times. Is the game gear one any good?

>>386967551
>It's not basic reflexes when you literally can't react fast enough to what is coming
well, that's just you. Again, in DmC there are attacks where the tell is a single frame and you have a couple of other frames to react, but yet only sonic get flak for requiring fast reflexes. Is iot because it is a platformer and not an action game? I am pretty sure that outside 1 all the games never even put complex obstacles on extremely fast paced setpieces, and usually slows you down before an obstacle. Hell, it's even in GHZ

>>386960206
if it's not challenging it's not a game, you fucking retard.
games by definition are self-imposed artificial challenges
go watch a movie then

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>>386967618
>And I really like the enemy placement

>>386967618
Same guy playing the Game Gear games as above. Metropolis Zone is very memorable to me, and I really enjoyed how I could see its origins when playing through Scrap Brain Zone this weekend. It's almost like Metropolis Zone is a rebuilt/enhanced version of the Scrap Brain, with its exploding/popping enemies, machine corridors and teleport tubes.

>>386967841
The issue there was with the aspect ratio and Sonic's position on the screen. I'm not denying that these issues existed, but they hardly made the game shit

>>386960206

The Sonic/Shadow levels in SA2 are more fun than anything in classic sonic

>>386967551
not just pure reflexes and reaction or memorisation but intuition of what the level can throw at you and when it's coming
sonic 1 was a bit iffy on some levels being pretty standard platform stuff but it really came into it's own with sonic 2

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>>386967939
>games by definition are self-imposed artificial challenges

>>386968274
yeah?

Can we take the Mario Olympic games, slap Sonic on the cover and repurpose it for extreme sports like skateboarding, snowboarding, bikijg, etc etc. That first level of Sonic adventures where you board down hill was the best part of any Sonic game ever and it's insanity that they didn't just make a game of that.

>>386965569

>you gotta rely on instincts

Wow, great point.

>>386967934

Except in DmC once you get the timing of the enemy attack down, you get better at fighting him throughout the rest of the game. In Sonic you gotta get the timing of every single jump in every single level down if you want to maintain speed. It's not about learning patterns, it's about learning the specifics of each single level.

You simply can't judge a platformer by the same standards that you judge a fighting/hack n' slash game.

>>386960206

Casino Night is literally the only level I find fun in classic sonic

>>386968274
Sounds about right.

>>386967939
Wow. Equal parts pretentiousness and autism

>>386968413
Maybe because it has almost no enemies and very little risk outside of a few parts where you could get crushed.

>>386968472
not an argument
will you counter my post or just call me an autist?

Git gud

>>386960206
I remember beating the original Sonic when I was 8.
It can't be that hard, can it?

>>386968718
some kids were born with dysfunctional brains
and can't react properly to sonic's "fast" gameplay

>>386967939

Not everyone plays video games for the same reasons

Not all challenges are engaging

Some games are unfairly challenging, and that is a flaw

>>386968356
>In Sonic you gotta get the timing of every single jump in every single level down if you want to maintain speed. It's not about learning patterns,
but it is? The levels have specific patterns in how they distribute enemies and jumps and ramps. If you were paying attention you would notice.
There are some things that probably last only two acts, but if you had played the games you would have noticed the patterns that span the whole games. Or just check a map on the internet
>You simply can't judge a platformer by the same standards that you judge a fighting/hack n' slash game.
you're right, hack'n'slash should be worse because sonic is built to have a play time of max 2h if you are handicapped, and 5 minutes for zone, so you can practice easily, but something like Bayonetta requires much more time to go through it and learn it, especially considering that the inputs are much more rich. Sonic was built around mastery, and if you have shitskin genes you won't be able to master it as easily.

>>386968875
>Not everyone plays video games for the same reasons
this doesn't change the base definition of what a game is: self-imposed challenge
it doesn't work like that
a game is something designed to deliver something else: challenge
you can only bend it's use so far
>Not all challenges are engaging
that's subjective
>Some games are unfairly challenging, and that is a flaw
subjective again
for many kids the games weren't unfairly challenging and as such the game became a huge success
just because a game isn't tailored specifically for you doesn't mean the game is flawed

>>386969214
Sonic games became a huge success off marketing you dumbass

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>mfw I remember when everyone called Sonic the easiest platformers ever in the 90s
>mfw retarded modern gamers think the easiest 90s games are too hard

>>386960206
Sonic, especially the very first one was never about going fast, it was just US marketing being retards.

Many old games are hard, bullshit half the time and has limited lives and continues because otherwise many, if not majority of the games could be beaten in few hours.

>>386967910
They nalied the challenge. Many people prefer the 8bit one because of that.
Both are similar games so if you like one you'll probably like the other too.

>>386968172
I agree. Except by the SB act 3, which seemed out of place even though I found very funny.

>>386969343
not only that
it's quality matters too
if marketing was the only factor, sonic 06 would be a success but it wasn't

>>386969401
>modern gamers don't crave challenge of any sort, in fact they are also repulsed by it
>modern gamers play games
strange isn't it?

>>386962334
It's always like this because you get these underageb& who decide to see what the fuss is all about, play the the first zone of Sonic 1, ragequit at Marble Zone and then make retarded threads like this failing to realise that Sonic 1 isn't very like the other games and is generally accepted as the weakest entry

>>386960206
How do you git gud on Sonic CD bonus stages? The fucking new version doesn't even have a save feature so you can't restart the level and practice. You have to beat the entire game all over again and get to specific stage to do it again.

>>386969616
git gud the old way and stop being a faggot
the nervousness of having only a single chance only adds to the fun

There should be a map.

Not knowing where all the paths are is awful.

The DS/3DS was perfect for sonic. Just display a map of all the level with all the paths to explore

>>386969806
lets go even further and make the game play itself
oh, you can do that on youtube right now

>>386969806
You don't have one chance ever in your life to play the game. If you want to explore just take your time to explore new paths. Dick around, that can be fun as well.

>>386969430
The whole final few levels of Sonic 1 was pretty ingenious for the time; chasing Robotnik up the tunnel and out of the Labyrinth zone, into the Scrap Brain, having him knock you back into the labyrinth and then climbing back up for the final encounter. Really gave some momentum to the last part of the game. It's odd that the Star Light zone is in the middle of it all.

It's too bad the end of Sonic 1 is literally nothing, it all felt like there should have been something more after the last boss.

>hard mode: without resorting to git gud

>literally everyone defending the game is resorting to git gud

>>386969616
once you beat the game you can practice them in the time attack mode
protip once the timer reaches 20 seconds a ufo spawns in the middle of the map and doesn't move much at all, grabbing it will give you more time

>>386970172
because his rule of not resorting to gid gud doesn't make any sense
op doesn't even know what a game is

Shut up, you dumb cunt.

>>386960206
>tell me what's the answer to 1+1
>hard mode: don't say 2
you run it once to learn the lay of the land, where the traps are, etc, then on successive runs you go fast

>>386969616
You don't. Just go to the past in every level and destroy the machine thing to save yourself the trouble.

>>386970172
We get it, you don't want to try in a video game and learn it.

>>386960206
Arin "Cucked-to-high-heaven" Hanson pls go

>>386970172
>Prove me wrong
>Hard mode: don't prove me wrong
wooow

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>>386970387
>doesn't read past the second line
simbly ebin b8 m8

>You have limited lives, 1ups are few and far between
If you're not drowning in extra lives and continues by the end of Sonic 2, you don't need to git gud, you need to git professional help.

I'm sorry if you don't want to hear people telling you that you're just exaggerating the negativity of your experience with the game because you simply suck at it, but that just appears to be the case.

1. run fast
2. press down
3. roll through most "death traps"

sorry but git gud isn't a "resort", it's the truth. if you can't play sonic without getting hit by death traps constantly, you're bad

>>386962027
It was easy as hell if you went slow. 90s are full of harder games than Dark Souls, Sonic isn't one of them

>>386970762
>he thinks badniks are death traps
(you)

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>>386970987
what are you running into then? the giant, unmissable spikes? the huge death pits at the very bottom of the stage?

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>these fucks are gonna """"""""""review"""""""""" Mania
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYDsz1NFBJw

>>386971118
>unmissable spikes
if you see them coming you're not really going fast
>huge death pits
all it takes is missing a platform or running off of one which is pretty easy to do when you're going fast

>Man, Sonic is just "press right to win"
>presses right
>doesn't win
>Man, Sonic is objectively badly designed.

>>386971259
>The most "literally who" literally whos to ever be literally fucking who
Remind me why you care, faggot.

>>386971514
>if you see them coming you're not really going fast
I see them. Get better eyes, fag

>>386971259
Nintendo fanboys eh!?

>>386967551
>If you were to hand me a "Castlevania 1 random level generator", I'd play it just fine, because I'm good at Castlevania.
Were you good the first time you played it? Were you able to react to everything without memorizing any type of pattern? Did you avoid bullshit enemy placement on your first playthrough because you can "react" to it?

If you had a Castlevania random generator you would still suck shit because every point you're trying to make applies to most hard platforming games in general. You're almost implying that if someone is good, for example, at Mega Man, he could play a random hard level from Mega Man Maker and beat it because his fundamentals carry over. It is true to some extent, but they most likely wouldn't beat it on their first try solely on reactions, and without some type of enemy memorization/level design memorization. This type of design also applies to hardcore shoot 'em ups, which require buttloads of memorization.

The mobile sonic games, and Sonic Mania, have widescreen which you give you more time to see what's in front of you and react to stuff. I'm sure that someone that's good at Sonic could do well on a random Sonic level generator because there's also reactions at play like any other normal platforming games.

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well I did it everyone, I beat Sonic 1 for Master System
Let's see my reward

>pic related

w-worth it?

Anyway, that wasn't a bad game considering its time. Would have been a real challenge except for save states.

Next game chronologically is Sonic 2 SMS/Game Gear. Oh god this is the one with the hang gliders and shit. Wish me luck.

Every platformer in that time was about getting good, memorize shit, die a lot, memorize patterns, die a lot, get a gameover, restart the game if no continues.
Mario Bros was like that too, you could run fast with Mario and die into a bottomless pit because you were dumb. Even if you were careful you could timing badly a mere jump or die because HAMMERS!!!
That's one of the things that made games challenging. They forced you to make mistakes and fail. Sonic was like that too, but you can get lives easier as continues(just do the special stages ffs)

>>386966219
The MS/GG, those ones sure can be hard or annoying. Sonic 2 was the worse though. Finding some of the emerowds could be also a pain, like Sky Base in Sonic 1 GG version you had to jump into nothing because you couldnt see the damn platform below you, or Gimmick Mt in Sonic 2...

You should play Sonic CD between 1 and 2. GG ones.. Chaos is easy and short as hell. Triple Trouble can be played after 3Complete.

>>386973257

>Were you able to react to everything without memorizing any type of pattern? Did you avoid bullshit enemy placement on your first playthrough because you can "react" to it?

Once you get the timing of the moves down, yes, the challenge comes from avoiding the danger you can see coming, and not from guessing what's coming next.

>You're almost implying that if someone is good, for example, at Mega Man, he could play a random hard level from Mega Man Maker and beat it because his fundamentals carry over

Uh, yeah? That is what I'm saying.

>This type of design also applies to hardcore shoot 'em ups, which require buttloads of memorization.

Not really. A good shmup player can beat any shmup, since he's reacting to what is on screen, and not relying on stage memorization.

>The mobile sonic games, and Sonic Mania, have widescreen

Yes, and Generation also has a wider screen and gives you stage cues that danger is coming through camera positioning, which I thought was a pretty nice touch. I'm talking exclusively about the old genesis games.

>>386973313
I'm not sure if my 2008 macbook can emulate Sonic CD without bursting into flames but I'll give it a shot at some point.

>>386973281

That Sonic 1 was already. Bridge, Jungle, Sky Base and that ending themes are pretty memorable.
Sonic 1 Master System was my first Sonic game ever, back in 91 or so, so i have fond memories of getting all emeralds and beating the game.

Sonic 2 was the one that fucked me over with that Gimmick Mt emerald the first few times. Or that water level with the bubbles, that can be a pain in the ass.

>hang glider
Just tap left, let pass a second, tap again, repeat. It is a pace thing, but sure that can fuck anyone the first time

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>>386973624
>Not really. A good shmup player can beat any shmup, since he's reacting to what is on screen, and not relying on stage memorization.
Do you actually play video games or not?

>>386973810
I mean "Sonic 1 was alright", damn.

>>386973624
>Not really. A good shmup player can beat any shmup, since he's reacting to what is on screen, and not relying on stage memorization.
This is literally the opposite of what you're told if you browse any of the shmup generals on /jp/, OR watch commentated gameplay tho

What shmup games do you play or know about? I'm actually getting pissed of with your lying and trolling

>>386960206

It's bullshit trial and error. The parts where you have to slow down are garbage, because Sonic's movement is garbage when he isn't running.

>>386964686
>Sonic was a mascot and a marketing strategy from the beginning, it didn't NEED good game design: the character sold the game.
Which is why Bubsy is so successful, right?

>>386973897
>>386973951

I'm pretty good at shmups actually. Once you get the hitboxes and the movement speed down, you can avoid most patterns without resorting to trial and error.

>What shmup games do you play or know about?

I have a MAME folder exclusively dedicated to arcade shmups, and I just beat Ikaruga for the second time last weekend.

>>386973624
Tell me, do you think rhythm games are also only reaction?

>>386974341
>I just beat ikaruga for the second time.

Most shumps aren't about split reflexes though. Those that are typically have some sort of RNG element that you can't really compensate for.

Before you say anything, get to loop 6 on Gradius 3. I did that shit. Do you know how fucking frustrating that was?

>>386973624
>Uh, yeah? That is what I'm saying.
And you ignored the second part to that. No "pro" mega man player can pick a random super hard level from Mega Man Maker and beat it on his first try without memorization.

>>386974258

Yeah, because Bubsy had the same level of marketing as Sonic, that not only came bundled with the console it was made for but had a TV cartoon and a shit ton of toys and merchandising.

>>386974353

If you judge 2D platformers by the same standards you judge a rythim game then there's really no way I can convince you that these games are badly design, you're just dead set on defending it.

>>386960206
I'll admit, the games never worked as well as mario did, mostly because of how fast you are going compared to how much the game allowed you to see ahead, but I still enjoyed the originals. Chao garden was the best thing about the Adventure series, and Heroes was the last one I got before I dropped Sonic.

>>386974341
Shoot 'em Ups are more than just shot patterns. Where are the enemies coming from? There are actually some games that infrequently spawn enemies at the rear of the screen to prevent screen hugging which a lot of people tend to do on their first play through. What are enemy behaviors the first time around? More than just shot patterns but how they also fly around the stage, possibly fire once and go off screen? Fire and dive bomb to the player? There are various factors. Then there is level design which can make previous enemies a bit more dangerous due to clever level design to shield them from just being a standard pop corn enemy that just bursts on screen. Then you have various games with rank, like powering your ship up in Gradius which will alter how aggressive the game is.

sonic poopia

>>386974341
>I'm pretty good at shmups actually.
>"A good shmup player can beat any shmup, since he's reacting to what is on screen, and not relying on stage memorization."

Considering shmups are the biggest example of memorization in video games, no you don't know shit about shoot 'em ups, you dumb nigger. It's clear you're trolling

Ristar is better than any Sonic game ever. RIP my nigga Ristar.

>>386973281
Fuck I remember hating Sonic 2 for the Game Gear. One of the worst 2D Sonic games.

>>386975067
This honestly, the level design in ristar was really good and he deserved a trilogy at least it showed sonic team could do much more if they weren't just tied down to making sonic games

>>386974740
>If you judge 2D platformers by the same standards you judge a rythim game then there's really no way I can convince you
I don't, but rhythm games are the closest video game genre you can beat solely with reaction. But even then, it still requires memorization. Top DDR players can't AAA a 18 footer on random without memorizing the hardest parts.

It just seems to me that you actually believe that some games don't require memorization at all, which is far from the truth.

>>386975447

Swinging around was pretty fun. There's nothing like it. Just thinking about the things they could've improved makes my dick hard. It's a shame there isn't much of a demand for a sequel.

>>386975447
>Ristar
>Nights
>Burning Rangers
>Chu Chu Rocket
>Samba de Amigo
>Puyo Puyo Fever
It's ironic that Sonic Team's at their best when they aren't making Sonic games.

>>386964379
>I know, but the gameplay doesn't reflect that
Yes it does. You are just trying to go against the grain the gameplay is trying to push. You are encouraged to go fast at your own risk or take things easier and play like a standard platformer. Hazards are in place to thwart the careless and the ring system is in place to keep the difficulty curve smooth instead of outright killing you for carelessness. Sonic is a casualized platformer and it works tremendously well.

You just suck.

>>386975793
Dynamite Headdy had a sort of swing with Headdy's head.
But Ristar had a memorization place. Was it in a magma stage? I remember you lose a life if you messed up

And Ristar for GG is different, so you can play that too.

>>386976094
>Sonic is a casualized platformer and it works tremendously well.
>works tremendously well
Sonic was never good.

you faggots still arguing a faglord that plays games but doesn't like challenge

>>386967551
>>386968356
>His point falls flat when it's really more about memorizing traps when trying to go fast than actually getting good.
In Sonic you gotta get the timing of every single jump in every single level down if you want to maintain speed.

No. Hazard memorization is the meta game for people who want to go beyond just getting good. You are perfectly capable of maintaining good time and beating the game without zone memorization.

Getting good at Sonic is getting a feel for the level design basics. Knowing that when you run for a long stretch unimpeded the likelihood of a hazard greatly increases. To know in that situation that rolling down a hill or preparing for a jump or slowing down might be in order. These skills, this "getting good" at Sonic is how you get better at the game overall. You attain decent times and beat the game by "getting good" at Sonic.

Sonic affords mastery beyond this thanks to its physics system and level design allowing for people who, yes, learn the levels extensively to attain insanely quick run times and impressive clips of them seemingly cheesing the level by hopping off a bump in the ground and chain popping badniks to the end. If you do not like this system but insist on blindly running, you are being a shit. Plain and simple.

>>386976696
Ah damn it. Missed the quote on that second line.

>>386960206
>without resorting to git gud
Nope. Git gud faggot.
You have to get good at the game, master the physics and understand how the games work.

Sonic is not a game that you'll immediately like. The gameplay has a steep learning curve.

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>>386961906
>Adventure
>Physics
Next you're going to tell me Sonic 4 has physics too.

tons of games did shit like this when they weren't designed to flow like movies

>>386962334
There was no problems with Sonic 1 you just suck at it you spindashbabby.

itt modern "gamer" brainlet played sonic for the first time and is pissed because the game doesn't offer a smooth first run for any skill lacking retard
op, go watch sonic x because that's clearly the sonic experience you were expecting
make sure to hop on your momma's lap and suck on her fat tits for maximum nutrition

>>386964379
>Sonic's movement speed when he's starting to build momentum is pretty slow, and makes the slower paced segments feel sluggish
No you just suck. The whole point of Sonic(Classic Sonc that is) is the player constantly adjusting Sonic's speed up and down while running in accordance to the level design.

Only pleb noobies stop in a dime when platforming sections come up. To play Sonic without slowing down/stopping in a dime much you need to get good at the game and master the fuck out of the D-Pad(you need to fully comprehend how the D-Pad works in Sonic which is very different from a traditional platformer like Mario or Mega Man)

>>386976483
>Sonic was never good.
Kill yourself nigger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh-m4U2w0z8

>>386964686
>Except people were criticizing Sonic for the same reasons back when it came out
No they fucking weren't. Everybody sucked Sonic 1 and 2's dick back in the day.

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>>386976405
You lose a star if you mistake the order.
Honestly, Planet Sonata was more annoying

>>386967551
>It's not basic reflexes when you literally can't react fast enough to what is coming.
LOL sorry for your shit genes.

>>386968237
>sonic 1 was a bit iffy on some levels being pretty standard platform stuff but it really came into it's own with sonic 2
How about no you fucking pleb?
Sonic 1 utterly shits on 2 and is far better designed and far more polished.

>>386966245
The game was meant to be easy. It was meant to be easy to beat but hard to master. Funny enough so many people still have trouble with the classic sonic games because they never bother trying to learn how the controls work.

>>386960206
I'm just gonna take easy mode and tell you to git gud and waste my time reading the rest

>>386966493
>the gamegear sonic games were much better designed
t. Contrarian McDoucheFace

>>386961812
>spindash
>in Sonic 1

>>386967606
>It was literally 2D Sonic but in 3D
No, no it fucking wasn't.
And I don't see how the spindash in Adventure isn't just as overpowered as the boost.

>>386967068
>Because the only thing fun about Sonic is going fast
Get a load of this faggot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZV5UNS2y60

I seriously pity Nint0ddlers like you.

Resident evil's controls don't work objectively either. Its clunky and unresponsive.
Neither is DOOM's, you move so fast its impossible to aim, hitscan enemies basically always hit anyways, secrets need you to hump the walls, and you can get screwed if you save when too low on HP with none in the level.
Super meat boy's controls are a mess too, he's too slippery and floaty.
Jrpgs in general kinda suck, you never really do anything other than navigate menus and hope RNG doesn't let the boss do a super move that fucks you.

Acquired tastes are interesting. Though sonic is shit, most the things you complain about aren't that big a deal.
Chao garden was the shit though I still want a game just of that.

>>386977752
there are more versions with the spindash than without it. I think even the megadrive got a rerelease with the spindash added on

>>386967939
In Sonic you set your own challenge. Like for example trying to beat a level as fast as possible or getting as many rings as possible...shit like that.

>>386977889
Sure, but the argument was about Sonic 1 right? If not then sure.

>>386977927
exactly
there are the basic developer made challenges but the game has also room for player imposed challenges

>>386960206
You shouldn't be blindly running everywhere. There's a rolling ability for a reason. Also the games give you tons of lives that are difficult to actually lose because of the very lenient ring system. As for Sonic's movement, he starts slow BECAUSE of the platforming. If he went to top speed immediately it'd be a nightmare to make the trickier jumps. Even at his slowest his movement is still tight and responsive, and the platforming is balanced with his movement in mind. In short, the games work very well and are far from being mechanically broken. You really do just suck at them.

As for the 3D games, the Adventures aren't nearly as buggy on the Dreamcast. The Gamecube and HD versions are shitty ports that added tons of issues. The camera is the only real issue with those games from a mechanical standpoint.

>>386977889
Only the mobile port did no?

>>386971259
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh-m4U2w0z8

>>386975067
I love Ristar but no.

>>386978017
>Sure, but the argument was about Sonic 1 right?
OH, my mistake. I thought the Japanese
MegaDrive version had the spindash. It just got added on officially on other ports like (Saturn, GBA, 3DS, iOS/Android).

So my bad, the original didn't have it, only on ports.

>>386975824
But this ain't true at all since none of these games come close to Sonic 3 and Knuckles.

I do support Sonic Team(talking about old Sonic Team here not this shitty new one) branching out and making new IP's though

>>386960681
>An opinion is "I like Sonic" or "I dislike Sonic"

No... those would be facts, anon. "Sonic is good" or "Sonic is bad" would be examples of opinions.

>>386978090
other ports as well, see:>>386978239

For some reason I thought the Japanese MegaDrive version had it.

>>386963072
>"sonic is too hard" critique.

No one is saying Sonic is hard or too hard. Stop putting words in people's mouths.

>>386977752
>Run
>Press down
>Spin in a ball

>>386977752
Sonic 1 has rolling. If you don't realize withing five minutes of playing Sonic 1 that rolling into unfamiliar territory is better than running you have a learning disability. All obstacles are either clearly telegraphed or can be bypassed by rolling.

Sonic autists will never understand this. They think that just because they have memorized the entire level by autistically playing it over and over again that the design isn't bad.

>>386967068
Since when could you choose when things are fun and not? I thought fun was subjective. And if you're not having fun, then it's not for you.

Sweet jeebus this bait got one hell of a backlash

And then a backlash to a backlash.

>>386978823

This entire thread in a nutshell.

Memorizing an entire level layout is not the same as memorizing basic game patterns. Sonic requires you to do the former, while good games require you to do the latter.

>b-but muh mega man

Yeah, newsflash: mega man had some shitty parts too. These games were made in the fucking 80s and 90s, they obviously had design flaws that got streamlined down the way.

The thing is that mega man learned from its mistakes, and then we got shit like the X and Zero series that had actually superbly designed levels and bosses that required you to get actually good at playing the game instead of simply memorizing shit, while Sonic insisted in maintaining its archaic style.

Sure, you had fun with sonic games when you were young and they were fine back then, but you have to realize the irony in saying "hurr I beat this when I was 10 how hard can it be to an adult"; that's literally why you think the game is easy: you've been playing it since you were a kid and couldn't judge a game's level design as well as an adult with no nostalgia bias can.

>>386960681
You're an absolute buffoon.

>>386979474
I've only recently got into Sonic with no bias.

It's really not that bad. I can only think of a handful of levels that gave me trouble from each era of Sonic games.

>>386979474
>This entire thread in a nutshell.
Easy to say when posts like this
>>386976696
Conveniently get ignored.
>My argument is great when I cherry pick what I acknowledge from the opposition!
Yeah you sure are winning all the internets today champ.

>>386979474
wow, OP, I thought you left after people called you out on not knowing shit about shmups.

>>386978404
>>386978405
We were talking about spinDASHING in Sonic 1. The start of the argument was explicitly about recovering SPEED. Why can't you fucking read?

>>386979749
Nah, OP's a pussy. Probably some other guy who's just as dumb.

>>386979474
I've played a few games that I played back when I was a kid well over a decade later and admit some weren't good games, like Fighting Masters. I don't play the Genesis Sonic games every week, not even every month, and not even every year. I not only had other games to play as a kid but other activities to do as well so I wasn't playing the Sonic games back to back. I don't have these levels memorized at all, I don't attempt to speed run them, I just get the jist of levels and take various cues from the levels to either press down to not get hit by an enemy or to jump.

It just seems like you are a person that cannot adapt to different ways games are played.

>>386979749

Nah, I went out for cigarettes.

>>386979675

I didn't cherry pick any arguments, he's making a point that a bunch of people have already made: the game isn't really all that hard, which I never disagreed with.

The game isn't that hard, I beat it without much effort with plenty of extra lives and most emeralds. My point was that the entire premise of the game is "gotta go fast", and unless you have the entire stage memorized you can't do that, because you're punished for going fast without knowing for certain what's coming ahead, so you take it slow, but the game feels really bad when playing it slowly since the mechanics weren't made for that.

I'm currently playing through Sonic 2, and it's a lot better with the spindash and the level layout is somewhat less trap-filled, but it still suffers from the same "gotta slow down and do these platforming segments with these sluggish controls" problem. Am I raging at the difficulty? Not really. Does it feel as good as other platformers from the same time? Not at all.

>>386979474
And then there are the 3D games, which, unless you're moving at a speed that you're clearly not meant to be moving at that time, now has the dimension of depth that allows you to see obstacles ahead must better than in the classic games, nullifying your argument.

>>386980141
Oh, so you're one of those people who expects Sonic to be about speed, speed, and even more speed with nothing else in it. Guess what? That would be an extremely boring game and you'd bitch about it anyway. Sonic is a PLATFORMING game for a reason.

Also yes, please smoke more so you can die quicker.

>>386980141
>I beat it without much effort with plenty of extra lives and most emeralds
>>386960206
>You have limited lives, 1ups are few and far between, and the game throws tons of ways of killing you as cheaply as it can all the time.
Which is it?

>>386980516
He's most likely just parroting the arguments of youtube reviewers.

>>386960206
I beat sonic 1 2 3, and knuckles as an Autistic 7 year old on the Sega Channel, provided through my stupid ass cable provider.

You must really be bad.

>>386980275

I know, I enjoy the 3D games that do that, but most of them are plagued by various other problems like clunky camera and shitty controls.

>>386980361

I expect a game in which the main character is known exactly for running really fast and always advertised as being all about speed to allow me to go fast, and not to punish me for doing so.

>>386980516

How does one statement contradict the other? You have limited lives and the opportunities to obtain more are far between, so you gotta move slowly and carefully to avoid losing them, which is what I did so I ended up with extra lives.

>>386980737

Why is everyone talking about difficulty? This entire thread is one huge "git gud" scarecrow, no one is addressing the main complaints.

I've really been avoiding just calling you guys out instead of just debating your arguments, but sonic fans are the most defensive blind fanboys in the internet, jesus christ.

>>386978043
>There's a rolling ability for a reason.

To apply a bandaid to inherently bad design?

>>386980908
Design is fine. You refuse to use the tools the game design affords.

>>386980875
If lives are few and far between then you would obviously not have "plenty" of extra lives. You'd have a few, but not something like 20.

>>386980141
>My point was that the entire premise of the game is "gotta go fast"
it isn't
the premise is platforming, managing momentum and varying speed
you got it wrong
sonic is ABLE to go very fast but that's ONLY for players who mastered the levels
sonic requires you to predict where to go fast and where to go slow

>>386980875
>Why is everyone talking about difficulty?
Because when critiquing game design the chiefest means to address it is to discuss what the mechanics goals are, do they achieve those goals, and is the game playable.

Sonic does not have flawed game design. It has autistic memers decrying it for putting hazards in their way as a platforming game.

>>386960206
Your post is smack bang 100% accurate, at least for the single Sonic game I own and have played since I was a toddler (Sonic 2 on Master System II). Playing it without having the level layouts memorised is a total pain in the fucking ass, some of the jumps require pixel perfect jumps while also having enough speed/momentum to carry you over the jump, no save file as it was back then but not really a valid argument as nothing back then had a save file.

More difficult and less fun than the Mickey Mouse games on the same system, less difficult and more fun than Alex Kidd.

>>386963072
idk I had sonic and knuckles when I was 3 and didn't beat it until I was like 13.

id always end up wiping on the floating city stage

>>386980875
>allow me to go fast, and not to punish me for doing so
it does
but the game requires you some pattern recognition skills before doing so
sonic is not about going fast
but about the POSSIBILITY of going fast if you master the basics

>>386980875
>no one is addressing the main complaints
because there's nothing objective about your complaints, they are only opinions

>>386980875
The controls aren't that different than in the classic games either, and the camera not only can be manually controlled, but will 90% of the time actually focus on where you want to go.

Sonic is not just about speed, otherwise that would be a shallow game which again, you would still bitch about. Still, there's plenty of sections allowing you to go fast if you want to.

Or are you going to complain about dash panels and the boost mechanic like everyone else because you're just going fast and doing nothing else? Case in point.

And for the other two points you brought up, this really does seem like just a case of you not being able to play the game effectively, and calling the people out around you for complaining about your incompetence. The things that "punish you for going fast" need only the simplest of skills to avoid.

>>386960206
>Sonic never really worked as a game, prove me wrong.
>26 years later, Sonic games are still being made.

Welp...

>>386980141
What you like about Sonic the most is being able to go fast, but not the process or effort it takes to go fast. It takes time to build up speed, that's the point. That's why so many people like the classics over boost:
In the classic games, speed is not given out tot he player, instead it has a process the player must go through in order to obtain and maintain the speed. And it feels rewarding when it happens. The buildup to receiving the speed is as important as the speed itself. If you don't enjoy that process, then the payoff wouldn't seem as great.

I've never minded having to go slow during the platforming sections. I have the patience to realize that I will be rewarded, and that patience has a huge role in how much I enjoy said platforming bits.

>>386967618
>>386967910
Also play Land of Illusion while you're at it, it's basically a copy of Castle of Illusion with more levels/bosses/gameplay power ups and challenges. And a hint of replayability with there being a star hidden in every level which gives you a bonus if you collect all of them.

>>386976912
Dumb frog poster.
>When Sonic goes down a slope, he goes faster
>When Sonic goes up a slope, he slows down
>He can roll down slopes to gain even more speed than just running
>He can spindash abd jump off a slope and gain massive height, just like in the classics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw516uy3qYM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw516uy3qYM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw516uy3qYM
HE'S FUCKING RIGHT

>>386981509
Even in boost games, speed is still present, just given to you in larger amounts, and you still need to do things to keep the speed going or else risk running into an obstacle or off a cliff.

>>386981607
>listening to a closet tranny's opinion
Sorry, sweetie.

>>386981607
>Taking Arin seriously

>>386981161

No, that is what you realized after playing through the game multiple times. The entire level and gameplay mechanics SCREAM "go fast", and then fuck you up the ass for doing so.

>>386981187

What the fuck are you on about? I'm literally talking about how the mechanic's goals are diametrically opposed to the playstyle you need to resort to if you want to progress without being penalized, not that the game is hard to beat.

>>386981321

>if you master the entire layout of the game and get good at memorizing it, it isn't a problem

>>386981468

Yeah, he's a marketing giant and their target demo is kids and autists.

There's a reason a game for the actual adult fans of the series is being made by rom hackers with a really small budget, almost no marketing investment and going to cost less than a fourth of a main sonic game, while the main games are marketed towards kids with huge budgets behind them without giving a fuck to what the "real fans" think of it.

>>386981509
To me it is more than just the build up for speed. It is that Sonic is a momentum based platformer. You get something like the big half pipes in Spring Yard Zone and you are just stuck in the middle. You cannot hold right to get out, you cannot simply jump out. You have to use Sonic's weight, use the ramp to run downwards, having you build up a lot of speed, then going up the other ramp allowing you to go much higher than you were previously. There are various things that reward and can potentially punish you for it, coupled with how fun Sonic is to control.

>>386981835
Even the very first time I played Sonic games, I could tell when danger was coming and avoid it properly while maintaining my speed.

Also, I'm assuming you didn't finish any of the games. I'm assuming you got stuck on one level you didn't like and went on here to bitch about it.

By the way, nice job cherrypicking the counterarguments than you can more easily refute.

>>386981835
>What the fuck are you on about?
We see what you keep steering the conversation to. But its apparent you're either too retarded to understand that others can direct a conversation or you're intentionally (gasp) poisoning the well and keeping the conversation stagnant.

>>386981835
>The entire level and gameplay mechanics SCREAM "go fast", and then fuck you up the ass for doing so.
no
they fuck you up for not avoiding obstacles
>if you master the entire layout of the game and get good at memorizing it, it isn't a problem
i said master the basics
in sonic you can reach good speeds by learning when to switch from fast to slow back and forth and you don't need to memorize anything to do so
all you need is playing it once or twice, take the risk and use your intuition to learn the flow

I bet OP will just go silent after a while.

>>386981218
>less difficult and more fun than Alex Kidd
You're just bad at rock-paper-scissors

>>386982216
And OP, don't you dare try to say this is wrong because in order to be successful with ANYTHING, you need to master the basics. If you can't, say goodbye to any job opportunities.

Come to think of it, I bet you're unemployed.

>>386982352
this
there's a certain flow to sonic that's very intuitive and if you have half a brain you can go fast like it's nothing

>>386982302
That part gets me every time,

Also fuck the bike levels, takes Sonic's speed/map viewing problems and dials it up to 11.

>>386981835
>No, that is what you realized after playing through the game multiple times. The entire level and gameplay mechanics SCREAM "go fast", and then fuck you up the ass for doing so.
The mechanics challenge you to learn levels and progress in skill enough to go fast. The zones have obstacles to keep you from holding right to win.

Learning levels to do them better than those who do not is not bad game design.

The game has tiers of play afforded to all degrees of player dedication. You are fully capable of going as fast as your reaction speed, knowledge of the level, and patience permits.

First time players are taught by stage design to roll down slopes, jump up hills, to avoid holding right to win during lulls between hazards because the game screams "try to go fast!". Its up to player skill to do so. And you can. Even on your first fucking time.

>>386982229

>>386982229

Well, there's no real point in continuing to argue with fanboys who'll just ignore the blatant flaws in the design of the game because they "remember being good at it when they were kids".

>>386982216
>>386982078

That's bullshit. Just watch any blind playthrough of the first game, and you'll see people falling for dozens of cheap traps simply for playing the game as it was intended.

You'll obviously defend the game no matter what because it is clearly very important to you and your childhood memories, so whatever. The game is too hard for me, my brain is slower than yours, the game is perfect and I should get good, and you have the perfect genes that allowed you to master the basics of the game in the first stage and then blaze through all the stages subsequently.

>>386981835
So it DOES work as a game for those markets of kids and autists. Going off by your thread I'd say you fit right in, according to you excellent findings.

So what's the problem then? You just don't like Sonic, that's it.

>>386982767
Yeah, most of those are overexaggerated. I did a blind playthrough of Sonic 1 not too long ago and I didn't have much trouble at all. It seems to me that you're only believing what you want to believe.

Also yes, you're supposed to get a hold of the basics in the first level, that's what they're for.

And sure, because we can refute your arguments and think differently from you means we're blind fanboys.

>>386982710

I know that. I know all of that. My point is that the gameplay mechanics don't feel good when playing it safely because the entire mechanics of the game are built around going fast. The game was great when it came out because it looked really cool and we had not much else to play, so we replayed it over and over until it finally became second nature to just go really fast memorizing the level hazards, but nowadays the clunky design is really apparent. That's my entire point, but you guys think that just because the game is playable and you were able to beat it when you were a kid that means the game isn't bad at all.

>>386982767
>simply for playing the game as it was intended
what's the problem with that? a game is supposed to be challenging
>The game is too hard for me, my brain is slower than yours, the game is perfect and I should get good, and you have the perfect genes that allowed you to master the basics of the game in the first stage and then blaze through all the stages subsequently
this
sonic is not perfect but your opinions doesn't equate to design flaws
as the poster above said the game doesn't exactly screams "go fast" but it dares you to "try going fast"
sonic offers you mechanics and a possibility of going fast given you learn those basic mechanics and take the risk of trying them a few times
all in all you're just a millenial faggot

>>386983064
>My point is that the gameplay mechanics don't feel good when playing it safely because the entire mechanics of the game are built around going fast.
no, man. they're built around the POSSIBILITY of going fast IF you master the basics. it's about teasing to try harder next time and go faster and faster.
>memorizing the level hazards
you don't need to memorize anything
all you need to do is switch speeds and have a fast enough reaction time to avoid most obstacles

>>386983121
>sonic offers you mechanics and a possibility of going fast given you learn those basic mechanics and take the risk of trying them a few times

Just like most platformers. You can go really fucking fast in Mario 64 too if you know what you're doing, that isn't exclusive to sonic, the difference is that Mario 64 feels good when played the way it was intended to be played the first time, while sonic doesn't.

>>386983395
>while sonic doesn't.
that's only your opinion

Reminder that Modern Sonic's gameplay in Forces will still be the same old:

> Scripted straight line stage with a few alternate drift, stomp, or light speed dash paths
> Random enemy placements to homing attack
> Majority of the level ends up being 2D even though we have Classic Sonic and our OC character for that
> Not enough 3D immersion
> Boost literally throws you through the level

Why do people even try to defend Modern Sonic stages anyway? People give Lost Worlds shit but at least you could interact with the environment and enjoy actual 3D gameplay.

>>386960206

Sonic works fine as a game, for the most part. The biggest issue is that it's billed as a game where you go fast, where that is not actually the case most of the time. Sure, you can go fast and blaze past everything in a lot of the levels, but there are secrets tucked everywhere. Many of those are accessible after figuring out how to manipulate the in game physics to your advantage. Sonic's levels are huge and nonsensical compared to it's direct competitor, Mario, which are usually simple but refined. Level design takes advantage of Sonic's speed and movement at it's best parts.

This brings up the case of the worst parts of Sonic classic, which would be how a lot of levels have really cheap deaths or segments where you have to stop and wait. This really fucking breaks the pacing. A forward panning camera when running would have also helped make some of the deaths feel less cheap. I think Sonic 1 is the poster child for cheap deaths and broken gameplay, with each successive title improving somewhat.

Ultimately, if you compare it to other platformers from that era, Sonic is one of the better offerings.

>g-going too fast punishes you!
>implying half the fun isn't seeing how far you can go super fast without seeing shit
Sonic games are about Flow, not just simple platforming. The entire design is based around modulating speed to maintain a constant forward motion; there is almost never a directly stopping hazard, only stuff that if hit just right carries you more forward. This is why the 3D games failed somewhat, the 3D space leads to more accidental stoppage, because there is more shit to hit.
Basically, if you're playing 'slowly' you are literally doing it wrong, this is what each starter level teaches you - you're safer if you keep moving. In a way, it's designed in a similar way to Doom, just on a 2D plane.

>>386983064
>the gameplay mechanics don't feel good
Not objective.
>the game are built around going fast.
No. It is built around affording speed. You just said you knew this. Try to keep up Anon.
>The game was great when it came out because it looked really cool and we had not much else to play
There were hundreds of games to play with the same ratio of shit to quality as we have today. Sonic was and is good. Stop injecting your opinion when fact fails you.
>so we replayed it over and over until it finally became second nature to just go really fast memorizing the level hazards
Games being designed with replay in mind are fine. It is not bad game design. Yes, Sonic is designed to allow for achieving greater run efficiency with zone mastery. The crux of your point is that the game fails to make the rest work. This is wrong. The rest works just fucking fine. You can beat the game for the first time and go reasonably quickly with mastery of the skill set afforded to you. No you will not commit a perfect speed run on your first fucking play through. The game does not demand this. Stop acting as though it does.
>but nowadays the clunky design is really apparent.
Sonic is the farthest thing from clunky. The controls are fluid, precise, and respond to a very well made physics system miles ahead of design not only of its time but even today. Not hyperbole either. Few games outside novelty based indies pull off physics as well.
>but you guys think that just because the game is playable and you were able to beat it when you were a kid that means the game isn't bad at all.
Not at all. We had fun enough to try through it more than once and learned it got even more fun. Shame you didn't get the same degree of subjective enjoyment out of it. But that's all that happened. Nothing you have said has come close to critique. Nothing you have said is an objective fault of Sonic's game design.

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>>386983523
>In a way, it's designed in a similar way to Doom, just on a 2D plane.

>>386983064
There isn't a single game out there that doesn't get easier the second time around unless you're playing on a harder difficulty. Of course it's going to be easier the second time around, but the controls, gimmicks, and design compliment each other quite nicely if you know how to use them (Which you clearly don't) and make even your first playthrough relatively short.

>>386983395
Then why are you whining about Sonic not going fast enough when that's what he's advertised to do and then saying that speed is null because you can do the same thing in Mario 64 if you do something you're clearly NOT meant to do. You're contradicting yourself so much that I'm starting to believe you're not even serious.

>>386983395
Woah, didn't know your opinion became an objective fault of the game.
What about the people who think Sonic feels good when they play it the way it's intended? You can't just spout something like preference as if it were the end all be all truth.

>>386982570
Well, we will alwayss have Shinobi World at least.

>>386981523
True, Land of Illusion is a more complete game.

>>386983523
this
sonic is somewhat like skateboarding to me

ITT: OP played through Sonic 1 which is not a good game and decided the entire Sonic series was bad without playing the masterpieces that were Sonic 2 and 3&K.

>>386983849
More like "OP got stuck on a level in Sonic 1 and decided the entire Sonic series was bad just because of one bad experience."

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>>386960206
Git gud.
If you're going so slowly, you're bad at the game. The fact that you're so wary of offscreen enemies when going fast shows that you don't even understand that pressing down mows through enemies. Spikes are rarely placed in a way that has you run head first into them without any warning and most of the times where you do are because of Sonic 1's spike glitch which shouldn't be happening in the first place.
Sonic's gameplay works. Otherwise it would not have been the smash hit it was, especially when its competition were games like DKC, Mario, and Yoshi's Island. You also talk about how punishing the game is when the ring system is the most lenient extra hit system in any platformer, to the point where a lot of people claim it makes the games too easy. Even in terms of lives, it's relatively easy to get a handful of lives very quickly via ring collecting and bonus rounds.
>speedrunning was a thing before Sonic came out
As a concept, yes. As a community or an aspect of a game, no. Most actual speedrunning started mid-90s to late-90s.
>HAVING
You don't have to do anything. If you were going too fast to react to something that would put you in an upper path, which is usually quicker and allows lower paths to serve as safety nets, you should slow down a little of your own choice in order to be quicker overall.
So not only are painfully ignorant of a game mechanic that would make playing a lot better but you don't like to think that much either.
>The 3D games don't even need as in depth an analysis
If anything the 3D games need more in depth analysis, even if it's just to look at what went wrong in trying to replicate the Genesis games in 3D.
If you really just wanted to mindlessly parrot the same opinions that Arin and RLM dumped out on the internet you could have just posted the RLM video and said "They were right, you know." and gotten the same results but this seems to be a case of a redditor trying too hard to fit in.

>>386960206
Imagine OP playing a game like Ninja Gaiden. He would have a mental breakdown.

>>386984219
>this game requires memorization of enemy placement, therefore it's artificial difficulty
did it for him.

>>386978142
>uh
>I mean
>uh
>I mean
>uh
>I mean
>uh
>I mean
>better insult the guy for good measure
>uh
>I mean
>uh
>I mean
>uh
>I mean
>uh
>I mean
Good fucking lord this was painful to watch.

>>386984219
I was going to ask 2D or 3D but it doesn't really matter. OP would be way over his head with the 3D games, let alone the NES ones.

>>386960206
Agreed. Sonic games are shit, except Sonic Battle and Shadow the Hedgehog.

>>386984884
This is a new type of bait.

>>386984996
That's my genuine opinion. I always hated the main protagonists and found them uninteresting. Sonic Battle is only good because it's multiplayer and Shadow because it isn't a simplistic "hold right/forward and jump" garbage like all other sonic games. To be fair shadow is still a shit game overall, just better than an average sonic game.
Another unpopular opinion; Sonic 06 could've had the best story line and would be the best 3D sonic game had it not been rushed.

>>386985439
Okay then, I'll respect that.

And that second one isn't an unpopular opinion believe it or not.

>>386984219
>>386984745
>>386984761
>>386983987
>>386983849


>literally hehehehehe 2 hard 4 u

wow I wish I was a Real Gamer(tm) like you guys

>>386983849
Sonic 1 is the best one.
Labyrinth is better than the autopilot level called Hydrocity, also.

>>386985719
Not an argument.

>Sonic
>being a difficult game
What the fuck

>>386986021
>people fall for the "sonic is nothing but hold right" meme
>run into a hazard
>"woow why can't i just hold right"

>>386985762

Yeah, because "I bet u didn't even finish the game lmao u think its bad because its 2 hard 4 u" is a great argument.

>>386986021
>>386986226

>not a single point was about the game being too hard

Why do you guys keep saying that

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>pc niggers got so btfo by sega that they now are trying to believe that every single sonic in existence is bad

HOLY SHIT HAHAHAHAAHAHA

>>386986336
Because it is apparently too hard for you to avoid obstacles.

>>386986336
>I didn't actually read your post so I'm going to pretend that it was a simplification of the first two words
Ignoring my argument doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means you have a small brain that can't piece together a reply that even acknowledges it and my points.

>>386986498

It's not hard to avoid obstacles, it's easy if you're going slowly. It's not worth going fast, since the way the camera pans doesn't give you enough time to react, and the way sonic moves, even if you react the momentum will lead you into the trap anyways. A lot of times you'll jump an obstacle, only to land in another trap in one of those "haha just according to keikau" 90s level design moments.

My point is that unless you have the level design memorized, going fast is worse than going slower, and going slow feels kinda shit. Not once did I claim the game was too hard, stop fucking talking about difficulty.

>>386986758
Were you buying more cigarettes, OP?

Also yes, there is some truth here. You didn't complain that the game was hard, but you did complain of your gross incompetence and about how you can't manage basic controls and physics.

>>386985731
Sonic 1 is great and extremely underrated around here. I can even see it being your favorite if you prefer the platforming focus. However, Labyrinth is the single worst level in the classic games, even worse than Wacky Workbench, and Hydrocity is fantastic. The automated bits are repeated a bit too often but the overwhelming majority of the level is not automated. It's a great level.

>>386986758
>the way the camera pans doesn't give you enough time to react
>having reflexes this bad

>>386986758
Going slow only feels shit in the underwater sections. Otherwise it feels like any other platformer except momentum actually means something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYDsz1NFBJw

>>386986758

And again, nice job cherrypicking the arguments you can easily refute

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>>386986758
>nicotinne addict cannot accept rational arguments and need frequent addiction breaks
pathetic desu

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>>386986758
>It's not worth going fast, since the way the camera pans doesn't give you enough time to react
Oh this again. Cute. I love it when OP only sucks the meatiest meme dicks.
>Sonic's is too large compared to other platformers
>And he moves too fast to react because the camera is centered!
Never we mind Mario is the same size, has the same camera, and moves faster. Right? Golly, I guess this must mean platformers were never good. Oh no!

>>386987953
inb4 "But Super Mario World is actually good" or something to that effect

>you can reset the game in Sonic 2 after getting a chaos emerald and it keeps the emeralds you have
>So you can get a few, reset and start again and get all 6 in the first level.

What the fuck. I didn't know this as a kid.

>>386988298
it reminds me that you can hold select (might be another button) in the original SMB and continue on the last world you were

>>386987953
It's easier to see what you're doing in Mario

>>386988795
No.

>>386988164
>>386988795
Called it.

>>386988864
>>386988908
Mario has outlines and a more simple art direction

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>>386987953
Not the guy you're replying to, but you forget that Super Mario World is more slower placed by default (A.K.A When you can't use the cape and fly over everything) AND you can have the screen move a bit more ahead of Mario than usual by using the shoulder buttons so you can see a bit farther forward and let you see stuff in advance that you couldn't see with the normal view.

>>386988942
>Mario has outlines
See, /v/? This is the key to a GOOD platformer.

>>386960206
>critiquing a game from the 90's
this shouldn't be how you spend your time arin, you are apparently married (to some poor downy girl but still) so its time to grow up and stop play nintendo in your mickey mouse pyjamas at half 3 in the afternoon

>>386960681
>Objectively
Subjectively is the term you are thinking of, anon.

>>386961441
I'll give you the point on Eggman / Tails, but as for the rest of what you said I just do not see eye with you on.

Also, Rayman 2 is cool, and I like it, but comparing it to SA/SA2 just seems a bit silly, anon.

>>386987953
>mario moves faster
Is that actually a thing in the games? How would you compare them? Amount of time it takes to reach a certain distance measured in pixels?

>>386990050
Since Mario and Sonic's sprites are similar in size and both of their asset tiles happen to be as well it's a simple matter of moving right on a straight stretch and doing the basic "amount of tiles moved per unit of time" math.

>>386990703
Why doesn't it feel like you're going faster in Mario then? Is it just good branding on Sonic's part?

>>386967551
I don't even remember 5 times you can just fall and die in 16 bit sanic games.

>>386990751
Because Mario also changes direction faster. Sonic takes a lot of effort to build to his speed but his levels also have stretches that let you appreciate it for longer. Mario is "objectively" faster, as in he has a higher top speed. But he also turns on a dime quicker and his levels are designed with lots of road blocks to force use of that key distinction.

On a runway Sonic at top speed is slower than Mario. Simplest way to really think of it in action is to take Mario for a spin in an early level in World that lets you skip it with the cape. You're done in seconds. Right up there with Sonic's shortest zones when you speed run (which with the right zone and technique effectively makes Sonic move horizontally as if the whole stage is a straight away)

>>386987953
jesus christ that filter

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>>386962027
This.

>>386977752
But this thread isn't about just Sonic 1

>>386960206
>resorting to
bitch pls youre hating on the franchise cause you suck and we all know it

>>386960206
The good Sonic games drew their level design inspirations from pinball games, being that Sega was a pinball company company and all.
Once you understand that, you can finally understand the good 2D Sonic games from the bad.

Is super sonic cool or stupid

>>386974239
He has near perfect air control and good acceleration. Where do you get your hyperbole from?

>>386960206
>except the game isn't an arcade game
I've played Sonic at the arcade.
I've played Chiki Chiki boys too.
And Super Mario World.
Arcades are great man.

guys im gonna post my honest opinion and you are free to ridicule it
i dont think sonic 1 is very good
its fun dont get me wrong but the level design kind of sucks for half the game
i like starlight green hill and scrap brain but god damn marble zone is a chore to play and spring yard is boring
sonic 2 and 3 are fucking godlike though i think

>>386992506
sonic is dum, utube and ING told me so.

>>386993668
It's an understandable opinion. I'm surprised you didn't comment on Labyrinth though.

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>>386987953
Lets have a more non biased comparison of sprite sizes just for fun. Here's Sonic.

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>>386994376
Here comes Mario.

>>386991675
I was playing Sonic 3 Compete today and this was what made me take a break. I really do hate that fucking lazer.

I had more than 10 lives and a few continues but I just wanted to stop right there.

The boss isn't that hard, either. It's just that fucking lazer.

>>386994246
i have mixed feelings on labyrinth. it's not a great level by any means, but i like its aesthetics and think people hate it more than it deserves. it's a figurative speedbump of a level but because of the water aspect it's sort of more organic so i can't really ding it in that regard, versus marble where it just feels like you get roadblocked in the dumbest ways while you have to wait for stuff to move on

>>386994487
What's Super Mario World like then?

>>386994376
Now let's consider this on its own. The speed Sonic is moving at compared to how much you can see is pretty reasonable. Notice how he isn't running at top speed the entire time with no regard for what comes next. And segments like the speed tunnels don't end with a big open pit or anything unfair. The games use speed quite well.

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>>386994904
Shit I just realized I didn't capture any SMW footage. Here's a better comparison though with Allstars in the meantime.

>>386994376
>Lets have a more non biased comparison of sprite sizes just for fun
Sounds fair...

>>386994487
>posts a remake of an 8 bit game that had tiny ass sprites because the system of that generation couldn't afford huge sprites.

Yeah, that doesn't seem bias at all.

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>>386960206
>when you actually get the chance to go fast you don't, because you know it's not worth it since there's probably tons of traps waiting for you.

>>386995208
>enemy has spikes over it so you still get hit anyway

>>386994487
>game expects you to jump and bing bing wahoo
>puts you in a tunnel with no bing bings and you can't even jump
>It punishes you with enemies in the tunnel too
And this is a thread about poor Sonic game design?

>>386995185
What the fuck are you going on about?
Big Mario is 16x32 pixels both on NES and SNES.

>>386995425
>Big Mario is 16x32 pixels both on NES and SNES.
because the original was like that, yeah we agree on that.

I should've elaborated, I meant to say that it's unfair to compare it to a remake in which the original sprite was already small. Instead of comparing it to an original 16-bit game, like Super Mario World. 16 bit games were flaunting their huge sprites, so why compare Sonic, a 16 bit game, to a remake from a 8bit game?

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>>386995785
Here I updated it.

For those of you who think that Sonic has bad level design, I fucking dare you to play Sonic 2 Long Version and see how the game feels when the level design is ACTUALLY bad.
It's fucking abysmal and will give you a much greater appreciation of the actual levels.

>>386960206
They work great when I'm do my play through on meth and can actually keep up with the blue fuck

>>386995267
What enemies have spikes on them that aren't in the slower spots?

>>386995785
>>386995872
SMW Mario seems to be about as wide, but slightly shorter than original Mario.

>>386995907
Save your breath. They're having fun raging over concepts without holding it up to the reality of the games.

>There COULD be a wall of spikes next to a speed boost pad. Never mind that that doesn't actually happen in any game, it COULD happen and that makes me mad.

>>386996231
Launch Base Zone has plenty of those moments.

>>386996393
>endgame zones are harder
wow

A part of me wonders whether Sonic could work as an open-world game. Not like the Soleanna shit in 06, but as actually being designed around being open world.

The thing is, open world games need a fun way to transverse around the large map. With Sonic, the gimmick of running really fast and doing tricks wherever you can fulfils that requirement.

>>386996432
>halfway through the game
>"endgame"

>>386996492
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5paaz16Nw20

>>386996574
>the last zone in Sonic 3
>halfway through
inb4 b-but 3&K is one game

>>386995907
The Long Version is really really bad. The game already feels bit too long considering it has no save feature.

>>386996750
S3&K really is just one game split into two.

>>386996301
The funny thing is that Sonic 2 Long has exactly the kind of shit that they're claiming is in the real games.
I don't know if you've played it anon, but I'd recommend it to anyone just as an example of how much good level design makes or breaks a game.

>>386996641
Concept seems solid but it has very obvious stretches of nothing. I get that its sort of a proof of concept though. With some actual level design this could really be something.

>>386996840
Doesn't change the fact that they were released as two games and Launch Base was the endgame zone for 3. Mushroom Hill is noticeably easier than Launch Base.

>>386996875
I admit I'm curious, but I think I'm going to dust off a few of the classics in the time before Mania here. Maybe eventually I will for that frame of reference.

>>386996840
Yeah just like Mania and Forces.

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Am i missing something here?
i see people constantly say sonic 1 is too hard or that it doesn't work.
but i haven't noticed much aside from marble zone, really what causes that much hate towards 1?

>>386997101
Mushroom Hill is a breather level though, just like Star Light and Sky Chase.

>>386997216
No clue. It's a good platformer. The physics engine really sets it apart from the rest of its genre mates back then. 1 may be a bit simple and best viewed as a strong demo for its engine but I love the game. It's solid.

>>386997242
No its a beginning level. Just like Green Hill and Angel Island.

>>386997151
Heh, that's exactly what my original intention was when I went to play it. I just saw it on the workshop and thought "oh neat Sonic 2 but with a few extra levels, you can't possibly screw up good ol' Sonic 2"
Turns out yes, you can very much screw up Sonic 2.

>>386997242
Mushroom Hill is nothing like Sky Chase. It resets the difficulty curve. Star Light is still relatively difficult.

>>386997216
It's an easy stance to take because it's backed up by vocal shitheads like egoraptor, or because the Nintendo/Sega console wars still rage on to this day and Sonic takes the brunt of half of that since he's a platform mascot. But it's difficult to say if it's trolling or if they're just echoing what they've heard.

>>386997101
Makes me wonder how much they changed Launch Base to make it more final level-y