Accessibiilty in fighting games

>>386827186
it's bad in my opinion
it just means more retarded normies to me

>>386827518
Eh, retards exist either way. You just have to not play with them.

>>386827186
Accessibility is one of those words whose definition has been systematically blurred by both marketing, for casuals, and ideologues, for SJWs, to the point where it can mean pretty much anything and is therefore worthless. So perhaps you could be more specific. I'm not going to watch the video.

>>386827186
BASED SIRLOIN WILL SAVE THE FGC
CAPKEKS ON SUICIDE WATCH
FRAUDULENT SCRUBS WITH SHIT FUBDEMENTALS SUICIDE WATCH

I have a strong feeling very very very not intelligent things are going to be said in this thread

>>386827186
I'm one of those people who like playing fighting games with my casual friends who also suck, but don't want to put the effort to actually learn how to play.
I just think that every game has its own barrier to entry and some are higher than others.
There shouldn't be a standard to allow ALL players to possibly win. That's why we have other games with lower barriers like ssb.

>>386827875
>oh my god how dare you not waste time on this suck ass clickbait video that ultimately doesn't resolve any of the questions the title of it presents!

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>asking /v/, home of daily threads about not being able to do a dragon punch, what they think about dumbing down a fighting game so they can finally play it

i wish /v/ would go back to not giving a fuck about fighting games again
maybe a few more years where the fgc has become 100% toxic instead of just 90% toxic as it is today

>>386828318
>I can't do a dragon punch
>SURE-YOU-CAN!

why is this idiot trying to turn fighting games into bad strategy games? if you want to remove all mechanical skill just go and play another genre

>>386827186
You are going to hit a wall in any competitive game that you try to learn. The learning process is part of the game, and if you don't find it enjoyable then the game probably isn't for you.

Some attempts at simplifying mechanics are more minor and generally preferred by the community (removing FRC, letting players break normal throws with 1 or 2), but the issue is that a lot of companies seem to think accessibility equals dumbing everything way the fuck down. The decent solution is to just add good fucking tutorials like Xrd and UNIST have. UNIST even teaches you the BnBs top level players use in the trials and separates the sections by starter. Meanwhile, T7 has shit in the game that isn't listed fucking anywhere, like wall jumps and even throw breaks.

I've been seeing this video making the rounds the past week or so; though I haven't bothered watching it (since I'm not really a fan of Core-A's stuff), I'm honestly not sure how serious I'm going to take something that considers "special move notations" a wall. It's a block when you're starting out, sure, but it shouldn't take you more than a couple of hours to be completely used to numpad, Capcom, Tekken, or any notation. Not to mention that you're going to have to learn shit like that in any multiplayer game, competitive or casual: nobody starts the game and immediately knows what the fuck "long A" or "SoJ" is.

>>386828410
What genre are you going to play? fighting games wont come back until something like third strike, mvc2, or melee comes back

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>>386827186
Good luck trying to lower the floor while having a high ceiling. It can't be done. Once you lower it, the same shit is going to happen that happened to the FPS genre.

Also, why is it that this topic keeps happening to fighting games while strategy games like Starcraft don't get in on this discussion at all?

>>386828318
Dragon Punch being called Z-motion is kinda misleading when it's actually 623

>>386827186

I'm an occupational therapist and I think 'accessibility' is a dumb term for what you're proposing, first off.

Anyway, I used to play GGXX/#R back when it was new and I used I-no pretty much exclusively. I think there's a good case for simplifying move inputs, especially if the game is well designed in the first place. GG is one of those series, you have a ton of defensive options that are universal to all characters and easy to implement (just before Xrd there wasn't any kind of training mode that explained this stuff to normies). Character-specific stuff should be tactics and movement IMO, and not performing ridiculously complex feats of manual dexterity.

>people think that dp, pretzel and 360 motions are there just to make moves difficult to pull off and not because it's a design decision since every motion has a reason to be the way they sre

>>386827186
Based solely on that image, without those 'walls' you can't have the tactics and decision making. I mean you cant have any game without some 'walls' at least as far as that image goes.

>>386828759
Nobody calls it z motion

>>386827875
The vid talks about accessibility in fighting games, and defines 3 kinds of "walls" one must overcome to "play the game".

One is physical accessibility, usually a problem for disabled people (like there's that guy who plays Street Fighter who is legally blind using sound cues, and that other guy who plays with his mouth on a special controller because he can't use his hands).

This one's cool, but not that interesting to solve, nor relevant to 99% of players.

The second wall is execution; having to do a SRK motion for SRK to come out, having to do a full circle for the throw, those kinds of things.

The third wall is game specific knowledge, like learning combos and mechanics.

The vid presents accessible fighting games on a scale, depending on how much they lessen the difficulty in climbing the second and third walls.

Divekick is so simple it's barely a fighting game and has no walls at all.

Rising Thunder removed the second wall by adding 1 button specials, but kept the third largely intact by essentially cloning SFIV's mechanics and gameplay, and arguably even increased it with the move and grove selection.

Fantasy Strike tries to lessen both by using 1 button specials and only the simplest combos/systems, inspired mostly by SFII instead of SFIV to get the players up to speed ASAP.

The vid considers this approach the best, as it can get people into the meat of the game. Paraphrased, if everyone would have to build their own telescope to see the night sky, it'd be a lot harder to convince them that the stars are worth exploring.

>>386828559
Theres tons of games out there if you enjoy strategy games, what I dont understand is why this david surloin guy thinks its a good idea to remove mechanical skill from fighting games as if they could stand out as pure strategy games

>>386828759
>>386828906
They do, because it is a Z motion on octo-gate sticks.

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>>386828906
The good old image used for the "hur dur how do i fightan" thread

>>386828685
>Good luck trying to lower the floor while having a high ceiling. It can't be done. Once you lower it, the same shit is going to happen that happened to the FPS genre.

So what OW did and ended up highly successfull with?
High skill floor, low skill ceiling is what the masses want.

>>386828940
First off, mechanical skill literally can not be removed.

Second, because he thinks that outsmarting your opponent is more fun than out comboing him.

Third, your complex fighting games remain, so you can still style on your friends who are willing to give the genre a chance after trying FS.

>>386828685
>Also, why is it that this topic keeps happening to fighting games while strategy games like Starcraft don't get in on this discussion at all?
They do actually
People cry pretty regularly about gookclicking and how you need 400 apm to even have fun at RTS

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>>386828986
>>386829000
Fucking nobody calls it z motion, it's either dp motion or srk motion. Is this some smashbros thing?

>>386828935
But learning the mechanical stuff is part of the fun

Have they ever considered that?

>>386827186
>Video starts with gimmick character
>Derails and goes to something else

What a turn off. I was hoping it would be a video about interesting gimmicky characters.

>>386828935
The second and third walls are necessary, without them I'd consider a fighting game pointless. The night sky can be seen by anyone and has enthralled humanity since long before we had lenses, so I don't get that analogy.

>>386829128
Yes. But not for everyone, and games where you learn a lot of the mechanical stuff already exist.

While fighting games where you don't, not really.

I don't see a problem with accessible fighters existing. It's dumbing down previously complex fighting game series that bothers me.

>>386829081
>First off, mechanical skill literally can not be removed.
not all of it, but he's trying to remove as much as possible and then talking about fighting games like they're chess or RTS or something. Isn't mechanical skill part of the fun? There's much better games out there if you want to outsmart your opponents

>>386829191
>The second and third walls are necessary, without them I'd consider a fighting game pointless.

Go, try Fantasy Strike, it has a free weekend coming up in like 8 hours.

>The night sky can be seen by anyone and has enthralled humanity since long before we had lenses, so I don't get that analogy.

That's the point. If there WAS a wall of "you have to build your own telescope" would it have enthralled people? Or would the majority just ignore it, since they can't even imagine what's there?

>>386829236
Not if you want to do it real time.

>>386827186
Tradition dictates that fighting games are to have a high skill ceiling, with special command inputs to do special moves, character specific strengths and weaknesses, and later on, welcome addition of character specific systems and tools.
Tradition exists for a reason
Ergo, fuck your argument.

>>386829081
This game is just going to massively flop

Casuals do not want competitive 1on1 games no matter how "easy" they are to get into.

Most of them play teambased games to begin with because of socializing reasons, so they can play with friends.

Also they dont want to be confronted with their own mistakes and 1v1 games do that.

Sitting down "alone" and practicing things is not what they want to do.

And actual fighting game players will trash it because its too simple for them.

What all these guys that try to make entry level fighters arent getting is, that the genre is just not adaptable for the masses.
At least not in this form.

If you really want a casual success make it a 5on5 smash bros clone with smash input style and no advanced tech.

>>386829328
>Tradition exists for a reason
...

Tradition is literally "we do these things because we have always done these things".

Which is the worst reason ever.

>>386827186
The problem with fighting games is not accessibility - prove me that doing combos in fighting games is fundamentally more difficult that being e-sport worthy at using sniper rifles in CS. The problem with fighting games are obsolete and uninteresting game modes, and lack of overarching sense of progress. They need to get rid of 1v1 formula somehow and add unlock system.

>>386829046
What high skill floor? You're fooling yourself if you think that's anywhere high enough. You made a succesfull game, for normies. This is what blizzard does.

>>386829323
>Not if you want to do it real time.
go try any RTS or even a MOBA
>Go, try Fantasy Strike, it has a free weekend coming up in like 8 hours.
Don't you have something better to do than defend your own game on 4chan?

>>386829375
>Which is the worst reason ever.
Keeping the retards out is a pretty good benefit to sticking to tradition in this case.

>>386829460
>go try any RTS
Good point, but RTS matches last way too long.

>or even a MOBA
MOBAs are not 1v1 and ALSO last way too long

Fighting games are the only genre where you get the thrill of high speed dueling, aside from a few FPSs maybe, but I massively prefer the fighting game gameplay to them.

>>386829375
some traditions exist because they've been proven to work and nothing has come along that says otherwise

>>386829545
Then they have another reason to exist even if you remove the "tradition" part; they work.

That said, you may be stopping yourself from doing something that works _better_

"I'll keep shitting in the woods, it works"

>>386829489
>Keeping the retards out is a pretty good benefit to sticking to tradition in this case.

You can do that with matchmaking.

>>386829208
And thank god for that.
Go play any other genre, stay away from my fitans. It's not about elitism, it's about normies invading my hobby and ruining/casualising it. It's been happening too often, I really hope it's not fighting games' turn to be dumbed down

>>386829543
so why would you want to remove mechanical skill from a game about high-speed dueling? you realize the more demanding inputs increases the mental pace/tension of the game?

>>386829407
>another dude that doesnt understand the word FLOOR

Protip high skill floor means that you can perform at a high level with low effort.

So exactly what you think about the game.

>>386829406
made me reply/10 good job

>>386829323
It seems more like, everyone can see stars but no-one knows what they're made of without specialist knowledge and equipment, or having such a specialist explain it to them and direct them how to find out for themselves if they're interested. Which seems fine to me, for both astronomy and vidya, and basically everything else. I don't think your analogy makes the point you want it to make. Nonetheless I do appreciate you taking the time to explain what you mean by accessibility, it's an interesting way to describe the issue in clear terms that avoids the more buzzwordy side of things.

>>386829658
>Protip high skill floor means that you can perform at a high level with low effort.
thats the opposite of what a high skill floor is

Idk
I can beat anyone online in rev 2
but when I try to play third strike I die against bots

I kind of want to take up Fencing or something. It looks like it would give the same rush as a fighting game but also doubles as exercise.

>>386829642
Fighting games are going to crumble and a new genre will be born. Just like what happened with RTS and MOBA.

>>386829642
I'm not sure why you think I don1t play fighting games.

I am. I just don't think the execution part is vital.

>>386829374
>Casuals do not want competitive 1on1 games no matter how "easy" they are to get into.
>Most of them play teambased games to begin with because of socializing reasons, so they can play with friends.
>Also they dont want to be confronted with their own mistakes and 1v1 games do that.
I definitely think this is a big reason for why fighting games will never be mainstream. Casuals will never be able to deal with the mano a mano aspect of fighting games.

>>386829210
Yeah I think they increase the variety in the genre, which is a good thing

>>386829721
You are thinking of a skill ceiling.

>>386829732
I also do martial arts, yes.

I kinda have a hard time finding friends who are down for a quick fisticuffs in games or irl because the barrier to entry is kinda high in both.

>>386829721
if the FLOOR is high everyone starts on a point where they are capable enough to compete with anyone else.

>>386829769
>Casuals will never be able to deal with the mano a mano aspect of fighting games
I think they enjoy it just fine, but only in person with an irl friend, not randoms online which is why all fighters have dead online.

>>386829658
I misread it, I though you meant high skill ceiling...

>>386829624
Match making works some of the time
High skill ceiling and the de'facto barrier of competence required to be any good with a game, works all the time.

>>386829798
a game having a high skill floor means you need alot of effort to preform at a high level
a game having a low skill floor means you need little effort to perform at a high level
do you even know what floor means

Fighting games are boring.

I play video games to experience new worlds and grow as a person by expanding my perspective and experiences. In fighting games you're just a robot going through the motions doing the same thing over and over until you get good at it. No thanks. My time is too valuable for that.

>>386829912
>My time is too valuable for that.
Says the guy shitposting on /v/.

>>386829908
Not it doesnt, you are literally thinking of a ceiling not a floor.

>>386829889
But it also dissuades people who may not be retards.

FS skill ceiling is high as fuck

>>386829912
See this? This is the perception people who don't know fighting games have. Not "playing against others and understanding them through your FISTS!" but a boring mechanical slog.

>>386829968
there are three points on a skill graph:
Absolute zero - you have no skill at the game
Skill floor - the minimum skill required to play the game competently
Skill ceiling - the maximum relevant skill you can have at the game

>>386829912
>grow as a person by expanding my perspective and experiences

But anon thats exactly what you do, its all about reading and understanding other people.

>>386829741
I wasn't exactly talking to you, just making ageneral statement. I can see from your posts that you play them.

>>386829968
I'm not>>386829908

You are retarded. "Low floor, high ceiling" is what is used to describe games like Go which have simple to understand mechanics but hard to master.

>>386829908
I think there is some confusion on the phrasing here. You are thinking "high level" as in a competent fighter, someone who knows all the basics and can compete. He is most likely think of pro level in which the floor has no basis and you are basically only left with a ceiling if you have room to grow.

a game having a high skill ceiling means you need alot of effort to preform at a professional level, since great players tend to outshine good players

a game having a high skill floor means you need alot of effort to preform at a basic level.

>>386829741
Gb2 rising thunder faggot

>>386830158
I would if I could.

But FS still improves upon it, imo.

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>>386829882
>when your friends always just get super salty when playing fighting games

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>>386829912
*tips*

>>386827186
>Buy game
>play game
how does it get anymore accessible than this?

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>>386829912
>grow as a person by expanding my perspective and experiences

>>386830240
They want to be good at a game without putting in the effort required. It has nothing to do with accessibility. Just them wanting to feel good about being a loser.

People like Sirlin want to make games in hopes that it will make people want to play the less accessible games.

But what usually happens is that nobody wants to leave that game for anything else and will continuously attack the Street Fighters and the Guilty Gears as inferior

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>>386827186
I'm one of those people that really really suck at fighting games despite liking many of them, like the MvC series, Bloody Roar or MK. Sometimes i wish things were easier for me, but at the same time i realize it's a (sort of) niche genre and that it's my fault for not putting work into learning how to play. I've literally never enacted a Fatality in my life because I'm that lazy. Because when the opposite happens, when the game is too easy, i can tell it is and it pisses me off. My 6yo brother was able to beat Injustice's main campaign just by spamming simple punches and location hazards, and that's fucking ridiculous

At the end of the day people still have fun. I think most casuald already play these games with the idea that they'll get their asses kicked in sooner or later, unless it's for cinematic garbage like Injustice. I think removing that kind of promise would be like making an horror that becomes user-friendly by erasing all the scary parts

But again, i'm speaking as an absolute casuals, the issue is probably more complex than this

>>386830001
Good.
No wannabes allowed, anyone who looks at a fighting game and goes "I will learn this game" and then learns it, are accepted, not people who can't cut the mustard.

>>386830331
>My 6yo brother was able to beat Injustice's main campaign just by spamming simple punches and location hazards, and that's fucking ridiculous

Fighting game developers genereally don't put too much effort into the a.i. so don't feel too bad about it. It's all about fighting real players.

>>386829912
Video games is just pressing buttons.

>>386830001
>playing against others and understanding them through your FISTS!
This, Ryu's quotes from SF are even pointing that out. You can sometimes feel some bits of personality of the other player, especially during some long sets, see how he adapts, changes, reacts to your style.

Keep fighting games that same level of accessibility so tourneyfags aren't having the game dumbed down but add plenty of single-player content for the casuals to enjoy.
That's the best way to do it.

>>386827186
Youre just a bunch of pissbabies, third strike was my first fighting game and I learned all special moves in a day or 2, and combos for my character in day 3. Im now a decent player after like 3/4 months and I understand all concepts like footsies and shit

>>386830441
I get that, but then, why doesn't it happen with other games? We found a cabinet with Marvel Superheroes the other day and they couldn't even beat the first stage against Spiderman

I mean, why it happens with injustice, as i already said it's objective is to be cinematic, but still, from what I've seen from clips of PvP even of the sequel it's not too hard to pull off the same "strategy" and stuck the adversary in a loop

>>386828410
>if you want to remove all mechanical skill

But we don't. We just openly want the tech stuff to work more like Smash Bros.

>>386830502
It's the best fucking feeling, literally why I play fighting games.

Especially playing long games with a player, adapting to each others strategies as the game goes on... I just wish I could share it with others more easily.

>>386830613
Ayyyy, Smash is a pretty complex game execution-wise, it's just well hidden from casuals.

>>386829858
That's not what people mean when they say that though.

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>>386827186
Yeah it's a good concept.

Take for example 3rd Strike. Let's say you want to play Urien. Urien with meter has hit-confirms into damage-scaling-resetting unblockables for literally a 100%-0% 1 hit touch of death combo if you have meter. Charge partitioning allows you to dash forward but still able to do the headbutt move to hop over his corpse (which is a down charge move), and the hit him from both sides. Watch this sequence of events: (start at 1:45)

https://youtu.be/92s7Ne6Yxsw?t=101

If you can't do this, you're shit.

If you play against someone who can do this and you can't do this, there is literally zero way you can lose.

When you are capable to technically inputting the correct inputs in order to do the Best Possible Thing (TM), a lot of games become REALLY shit.

Another example is SF2. After like 20 years a T-Hawk unblockable corner option select was found that allows him to infinitely chain throw you in the corner no matter what you do, if you put the right sequence of commands in. He was shit tier for eternity, and now he's top tier. All because you can hit the right combo of inputs. All the fun stuff of the game. the reads, zoning, etcetcetc, you can't get to that stuff if you can't get past that wall.

Game inputs should be as easy as possible while still retaining the things that actually make the game fun. Legacy fireball inputs and SRK inputs are just garbage.

>>386828832
>motions are there just to make moves difficult to pull off

This was literally the actual reason they were originally put into Street Fighter though, there was no initial pretense of balance.

>>386829120
Newer SF players say it

>>386830612
Video game development has changed over the years. Stopping your consumer from seeing all of the produced content is a big no-no these days in AAA games. One of the reasons you want to keep single player difficulty low is because it can stop your consumer from continuing to play or even refund the game entirely.

Injustice isn't one of the most difficulty games out there but it's a still a competitive fighting game. if someone gets stuck in a "loop" like you said, then they don't deserve to win because they failed to adapt. Adapting to your opponents strategy is key to winning. Unless you're playing SF4 Ibuki.

What's the hardest to learn fighting game?

>>386830612
>I mean, why it happens with injustice, as i already said it's objective is to be cinematic, but still, from what I've seen from clips of PvP even of the sequel it's not too hard to pull off the same "strategy" and stuck the adversary in a loop

That's mostly because of Injustice being ass. Zoners are really good in those games for some reason, and characters don't have many tools.

There's still mindgames and stuff, but you need to dig deep for them.

>>386830802
This. 90% of fighting game traditions started with SF.

6 buttons is the 3 strengths of punch kick that arcade cabinet had.
Special move inputs, as you have said.

Hell, fucking sticks and up-to-jump. We could have been playing on a hitbox since day 1.

>>386827186
To me those walls aren't even the real wall. Those things really only take a few days to pick up. The real wall is match up familiarity: knowing all the openings in every characters pressure, what is punishable, how you should fight them in neutral, etc.

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>>386830796
You did your homework but you still a normie bitch.

>>386830985
Okay, but why have those few days instead of starting on the hard part right away?

>>386830985
You underestimate how bad most people are at picking up new things in life.

>>386830838
Definitely Tekken. The amount of game knowledge you need to even be decent at the game is retarded otherwise you just get shit on by unfamiliar moves.

>>386827186
Depends.
Timing, spacing, positioning, and such are the heart of a fighting game. These are what make the game. Things that interfere with that are counter to the heart of a fighting game.

Move input complexity is just dumb and interferes with people actually learning the proper intricacies of the game. This is an area where a game like, say, Smash excels, in the face of being shit everywhere else. It doesn't take more than a few days of picking up a character to fundamentally learn how they work. Now, figuring out the finer details of how this character works in the broader web of character is going to take time, make no mistake, but spending weeks getting a single move input down, or even worse, loosing an important match because you accidentally performed a half roll backwards instead of a third roll is just dumb.
Autocombos should not be a thing, because they similarly interfere with a person's ability to learn the intricacies of the game from the other side. There's a difference between mashing buttons and actually learning your character.
Proper matchmaking would be a big help in fighting games. I frequently see games with little to no effective tracking of player skill, and frequently see people thrown into hilariously lopsided matches. This isn't fun for either the ass kickee or the ass kicker, both would much rather be fighting someone they could actually fight against.

>>386831067
T7 isn1t even the worst offender, but TTT2 definitely is.

Also: you need to input a command to fucking walk properly. One day this thought just entered my head and I can't even describe how dumb it makes Tekken sound, but it's true.

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>>386831040
Let's say you want to make music.
You don't want to learn how to actually produce the music, you don't want to sing, you don't want to pick up an instrument, or a DAW. But you still complain that you are incapable of making the kind of music that you want to make.

This is the discussion right now.

Or maybe people just need to stop being pussies.

>>386831067
Different anon here, tekken 7 is the first fighting game I've played in about ten years, because my friend loves the series and he refuses to try any series I have past familiarity with like VF or GG, and it seems fucking absurd. Plus he's a dick who prefers to curbstomp me rather than try to bring me up to his level. So I guess I can see why many people view the genre as quite impenetrable.

Accessibility and the fighting genre don't mix.
Fighting games are inherently a niche and not accessible to the casual gamer.

>>386831207
Korean backdash?

>>386827186
it's okay if I don't actually know how to do reversals, they come out fifty percent of the time I need them to anyway by button mashing

why doesn't anyone play street fighter in australia reeee

>>386831260
I actually don't have to do most of that shit if I don't want to, there's lot of synthesizer programs out there.

Jokes aside, LEARNING THE INSTRUMENT IS THE HARD PART!

The things that are removed would be shit like having to go down to the gym for half a year just so you can lift your guitar because it's filled with lead for some reason AND wanting all the guitars to be filled with lead because not filling with lead would make using a guitar more casual.

>>386831359
Yes. But also wavedashing.

>>386827186
The first wall should not exist at all, it's just bad game design.

The second wall isn't much of an issue when the first doesn't exist.

Fighting games really need to take from Smash how to do inputs, maybe you could add diagonal inputs and a few strings but that's about it. DoA for some characters comes close to how I wish inputs to be done - save for some characters it's easy enough to input everything even with a keyboard.

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Guys, I think being a CEO should be more accessible to casual workers. How do we do it? I'm open for suggestions.

>every worker gets a free 100,000$ to start their company with
>you get a free secretary who deals with all your paper work, you only have to sign it
>your company's product will be distributed free of charge to 20% of all shops in USA
>you as the CEO only need to work 4 hours a day, no more 8 hour workdays yay!

Is this actually what casuals are asking for?
You don't just move the mountain you want to climb, you work harder on climbing it.

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>>386827186
Excluding fighting games, since I don't play them, I think it's one of those things where games that started out with a difficulty curve shouldn't ease the curve with newer releases. If it's an offshoot game to get more players I don't really have a problem with it, but the only game that I really play to try and get good enough to be seriously competitive is rocket league, and if they ever released a rocket league 2 and tried to make it more accessible by easing the curve, I would be pissed. I can imagine the same for long time players of fighting games. For new series, the curve should reflect what the rest of the games will be like so people who bought the first know what they're getting into.

>>386831541
Fuck that, I play Eliza

>>386829120
>Guessies
Never heard that once in my entire life.

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But I want execution to be part of the depth. Why can't we have that?

>>386831590
Yes. Casuals are like feminists in that way.

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>>386831590
>>386831260

>>386831820
Play a piano or a rhythm game

>>386831820
I agree with this, I just think there's really no depth in pointless execution tricks like 1f links.

>>386831493
>The things that are removed would be shit like having to go down to the gym for half a year just so you can lift your guitar
This is retarded argument. Everyone can press buttons on a pad/stick.

>>386831905
Yes, but not everyone can do a shoryuken.

Trust me. I spent hours trying to explain to a normie friend how to do a SRK/HCF motion and cancel a move int a special.

Instead, we could have just played Rising Thunder or FS.

>>386831582
>The first wall should not exist at all, it's just bad game design.
Well then tell us what would be good game design in your opinion if you had to implement 18 normal attacks, about 3-4 special attacks and 1-2 supers?
How do you do that on a controller with 6 buttons and an analog stick? Tell Sony to put more buttons on their controller?

>inb4 just don't have that many attacks
and there goes your combo complexity, mixup and reset options and along with it a huge chunk of depth and you might aswell be playing smash bros

the point of fighting games IS their complexity
it's the one thing that seperates the wheat from the chaff

it makes it so that someone who put the work in to overcome the complexity will reliably beat someone who did not

and make no mistake, fighting games aren't only complex when you're just starting out, actual proper fighting game players will laugh at you and tell you that learning the inputs and learning your character was sort of the easiest thing that they had to do to get to their level

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>>386827186

>>386831820
especially because execution isn't even that difficult compared to pretty much everything else after that for God's sake

>>386831973
>but not everyone can do a shoryuken.
yeah they can, your friend's a pussy who gave up on it too quickly
or maybe you tried too hard to explain it and didn't let him just do it

if your friend can do a QCF your friend can do a F+QCF it's not that difficult

>>386831493
>The things that are removed would be shit like having to go down to the gym for half a year just so you can lift your guitar because it's filled with lead for some reason AND wanting all the guitars to be filled with lead because not filling with lead would make using a guitar more casual.
Surely you jest. That's a terrible and incorrect analogy. A more fitting one would be that casuals don't want to learn how to perform the chords and inputting them in the order required to create proper music. They want to be able to create music by just strumming the strings of a guitar. Like you said though, they can always go with a synthesizer. It's not as impressive and to most people not as fun and appealing, but the option is there.

>>386831973
Then they can play without using that move. I mean, I play fighters and I definitely can't do everything in the game. And I don't need to be able to play the game.

But at that moment that I decide I want to be better and learn a new thing, I will need to put in the effort to accomplish it.

>>386832080
but y tho

You could flip a bottle every time you move a pawn in chess... but why?

Or you could have to... idk, pull your hand back with the mouse and make a throwing motion to throw a grenade in an FPS. Does that sound fun to you?

>Limited inputs also limit design freedom
>Lowers the skill ceiling
>Removes a risk/reward decision during combos, no longer have high damage/high execution vs average damage/low execution etc.
>Very small % of the target demographic will play beyond a few months

>>386832154
> And I don't need to, to be able to play the game.
Correcting my mistakes

>>386832157
DP motions exist for a reason so your argument is stupid. Educate yourself.

>>386831978
>Well then tell us what would be good game design in your opinion if you had to implement 18 normal attacks, about 3-4 special attacks and 1-2 supers?

Let's see, 8 directions means you can do 16 normals with 2 buttons. that leaves 4 buttons for specials without any "command specials". press 2 specials for super.

Done.

>>386832157
your metaphor's aren't fitting

it's more like
>why do I have to drive stick if I could just drive automatic
because it's
NOT
THAT
HARD

>>386832157
Removing input motions has much higher reaching changes than you think, it's not even remotely the same thing.

>>386832242
>because it's
>NOT
>THAT
>HARD

Is "it's not hard" a reason to do it?

Why?

>>386832248
Removing, yes, designing with them not being there tho?

>>386831978
>Well then tell us what would be good game design in your opinion if you had to implement 18 normal attacks, about 3-4 special attacks and 1-2 supers?
I presented 2 example games who do execution decently and have enough combos/mixups, stop with the false dilemma.
There's also Dissidia FF who does it okay.

>inb4 talking about those games flaws
If it's not related to execution, not
relevant

>the point of fighting games IS their complexity
Said who?

>>386832237
Thanks for the assist

>>386832285
>designing with them not being there tho?
See >>386832161

>>386832368
Literally a baseless slippery slope

>>386832285
>Is "it's not hard" a reason to do it?
No, DP motions exist to make the move harder to do from moving backwards position and from crouching position. The move is balanced for different situations by their input method. Like fuck, it's an example in the OPs video.

>>386832161
>Limited inputs also limit design freedom
sure, not a problem for the user, though, if the designer is competent
>Lowers the skill ceiling
unsure. Citation?
>Removes a risk/reward decision during combos, no longer have high damage/high execution vs average damage/low execution etc.
Once your execution hits max, this decision stops existing. It is a false choice, you always go for the more damaging combo, unless the less damaging one has some other benefit.
>Very small % of the target demographic will play beyond a few months
irrelevant to execution.

>>386832418
Yes, and then he explains that it doesn't need to be that way and you can design around it.

>>386832470
>Once your execution hits max, this decision stops existing.
And this happens when? It hasn't happened to me during my years of playing fighters. And that's a good thing. Being consistent and having fine execution should a skill that benefits the player. I still need to decide between high execution/high damage and low execution/low damage combos. And that's fine.

>>386832237
>Let's see, 8 directions means you can do 16 normals with 2 buttons.

Actually, I forgot neutral, so you can literally do 18 normals with 2 buttons.

>>386832584
What the fuck kind of game are you playing?

Unless you are trying to pull off Desk combos in SFIV, I can not imagine this happening.

>>386832237
and suddenly all of your inputs are slow as fuck and you can barely do complex and fast inputs because you have to autistically move the stick ALL THE TIME

>>386832285
well no, there's no reason to actually play fighting games at all if you know what I mean, you can just play something else and be happy with that

if you're asking for why an input like that exists at all the answer is fairly simple
in all the years of fighting games it has established itself that a complex input provides just enough time delay for special attacks like invincible reversals to not be overpowered and just counter literally everything
it's mostly a balancing issue

sure you can put a cooldown on it like rising thunder and fantasy strike
but that's just one more thing on the player's mind while he's fighting, you can't be looking at your UI when you're playing high level matches
instead, you just give them something they learn ONCE and never have to think about it again
and there's your FQCF input

>>386832309
>I presented 2 example games who do execution decently
with about 1/3 of the amount of moves you can do to be precise

>Said who?
it's obvious by the FGC's community's (i.e. people who actually care for the games) reaction to casualized titles
aswell as, well I dunno, people putting THOUSANDS of hours in the game just to overcome the complexity maybe, and not just the initial input complexity

it's deeply meaningful to actually have the game open up to you after you put in the work needed
it feels like casuals want to eat a cake without actually having to bake a fucking cake

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David Sirloin can go to hell. The lack of accessibility in a fighting game builds communities and allows people share tech and friendships. Fuck him and fuck all this accessible gameplay bullshit. It's killing video games.

>>386832654
>and fantasy strike

FS doesn't use cooldowns.

Fucking play the game, it's going to be free on the weekend, then come back when you actually have some experience with the other half of the argument.

>>386832650
Airdashers mostly
>you just suck
I know and I actually prefer that. There SHOULD be a gap between skill floor and skill ceiling. I don't understand why people are so afraid of it.

>>386832728
well technically it's a "cool up" but that's not the issue here
he still has to wait for an arbitrary amount of time to actually use his move

>>386832762
They just want the gap to be in positioning, timing and mindgames instead of "who trainingboared this combo more".

>>386829120
>guessies
No one says that

>>386827186
it's dumb. the fun of a fighting game is that it's a fighting game. you wouldn't take aiming out of a 1st person shooter because people are too lazy to learn how to lead a target or whatever.

the issue is the attitude that if it's possible to do a thing in a game then every single person playing it has to be able to do that thing.

it's like if you took dark souls and you're like hmm a lot of players never get to experience ng+7, so now all the ng+ are going to be the same difficulty as ng

>>386832792
You mean Geiger. Whose mechanics mirror Guile's flash kick. Others don't really have to wait for moves (Grave has to wait for wind, and there's the supers, technically).

>>386832806
If they actually had skill in those 3 aspects, they wouldn't be beaten by longer combos in the first place.

>>386832806
contrary to belief, those advocating for positioning, timing, and mindgames will still make excuses for losing even with that barrier gone. Then they'll say

>positioning, timing, and mindgames are too hard. Just give me a I win button

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>>386832719
don't worry, casual fighting games will never garner the interest of actual players with an honest burning passion for fighting games

and why would they when you don't even need to get invested in them to be able to pull everything off?
where's the value in it when literally EVERYONE can do it?

>>386832414
Except it's not. How do you add complexity or risk/reward to a combo when the entire point of the game is simple execution? It's a simplified game that caters to extremely entry level players. It cuts off fat from both ends (easier entry, faster to hit skill cap) to achieve this.
>>386832470
>Once your execution hits max, this decision stops existing.
Cool, didn't know every human was suddenly a TASbot. Even top level players drop combo's, or will go for a short-and-sweet combo rather than risk a harder one. Grinding it 100 times in training mode and doing it on the fly + tournament nerves is an entirely different beast. "At the absolute highest level" is a cop out even if that was a valid point anyway since that takes years to achieve and is, at max, 5% of players. The entire point of FS is to make the game more accessible to entry level players, all these changes are made with a lower level in mind, not highest level.

>>386828110
HE CAN'T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH IT

>>386832937
Fucking pro players who were playing SF have started to retire cause the game has become too commercialized and casual.

>>386832950
>Except it's not. How do you add complexity or risk/reward to a combo when the entire point of the game is simple execution? It's a simplified game that caters to extremely entry level players. It cuts off fat from both ends (easier entry, faster to hit skill cap) to achieve this.

Where the fuck is the skill cap in FS?

Fuck, how the hell can a skill cap exists in a fighting game when you are playing against other people? The skill cap in a fighting game is literally "I can consistently beat everyone else".

>>386832654
>and suddenly all of your inputs are slow as fuck
Literally no, ever played smash before?
Execution is always very fast and precise without needing complex inputs.

>with about 1/3 of the amount of moves you can do to be precise
Confirmed for never playing them.

>it's obvious by the community
Opinions aren't facts.

>b-but artificial difficulty is what makes the game deep and not for casuals
Wew, nice comeback.
A game is fun and well designed when you have easy and versatile inputs but hard challenges to overcome.

>>386832950
Not what I am talking about and you add risk/reward by properly balancing cooldowns/start-ups - framedata in general.

>>386827186
Realize, of course, that all this "accessibility" bullshit is really a bunch of ugly people that want to feel good about themselves will putting in zero effort.

They want to turn games into the special olympics.

>>386833073
>They want to turn games into the special olympics.
Ive been looking for the right way to describe the casualization of gaming for a while, and thats probably the best way to say it

>>386833123
>>386833073
Isn't it actualy the reverse of special olympics?

Since you don1t have to be a fucking autist to play them?

>>386833070
>adding a stick movement to a button doesn't actually make the input slower
I see you're just looking to argue about issues you're wrong on, that's fine, enjoy your smash I guess
but you have no idea about fighting games, and the fact that more and more pro's keep dropping them because they're getting too casual is proof of that

>>386833198
sure you can call usain bolt an autist to try and get him down to your level
but that doesn't change the fact that he's better at it than you could ever be, that's how I see it

>>386833298
I mean, Usain Bolt doesn't have the entry cost of cutting his legs off, while the special olympic guys do.

I could, technically, compete with Usain Bolt on the field, day 1. He'd beat the shit out of me, but still.

>>386833361
>I could, technically, compete with Usain Bolt on the field, day 1. He'd beat the shit out of me, but still.
same with actual fighting games
great isn't it? you actually get the chance to go up against someone who will definitely beat the shit out of you

and if you put the effort in, you get to beat take a big steamy shit on them in return

but if everyone gets to shit on usain bolt without much effort, because the olympics guys decided that running any faster than 10km/h is too complex and should be banned it's suddenly not that special anymore to be better than usain bolt

>>386827186
When it comes to fighting games it doesn't really matter desu.
No one except severely autistic neets are interested in playing them anyway.

>>386833523
let's just make this clear, they're severely autistic neets who are better at fighting games than you mind you

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This same fucking thread again?
Hey Euroshit how many days a week to you make this thread about how you suck at fighting games and then spend hours arguing with people about it?
Do you just do it to bait for attention? Or like you were saying last thread are you actually so shit at fighting games that after months of weekend play you still can't pull off DPs consistently?

>>386833056
It's lower than any other competent fighting game because there's a complete removal of an entire aspect of execution

>>386833517
>same with actual fighting games

Yes!

That's my point!

Daigo isn't going to beat me at street fighter because he knows all the combos or can input FADCs flawlessly, he's going to beat me because he can read me like an open fucking book.

So why the fuck can't a game that doesn't have FADCs and combos be just as good at fighting?

>>386833571
Yes, of course they are.
Last time I played a fighting game was in some arcade over 20 years ago.

>>386833240
>holding the stick in a direction and pressing a button is mechanically slower and hard than piano inputs, that involve more complex motions
You aren't even trying to argue anymore or just not understanding what I am talking about.
A simple 6PKKP input with variations(like 6PKPP instead pulling a different string to mixup) are fine, those are how DoA inputs tend to work and I used it as a positive example(barring some characters).

Is there any chance of Rising Thunder ever coming back? I loved that game.

>>386833636
Okay.

What does that have to do with the skill ceiling?

The ceiling didn't get lower , because the ceiling is other people.

The floor got higher, because execution is the floor.

I got into Street Fighter like 2 days ago. I already know how to do most inputs and some combos.
If you complain about the accessibility of a fighting game because it's too "hard" or has a high skill ceiling, then you're retarded.

>>386833749
Anon, everybody can do them in training mode.
Now try in a real fight, possibly not against CPU

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>>386827186
What's this about people saying Fantasy Strike stole/copied animations? Just curious

>>386833702
Execution is not the floor. If it was the floor then why do top players not opt for max damage combos 100% of the time? Disregarding setup purposes like standing resets etc. If it's a floor, why do people who make money off the game doubt their ability to do it when it matters?

>>386833640
I think it's because tech like FADCs and resets and whatnot are the "low-hanging fruit" for someone trying to improve at fighting games after they get the inputs down

you just can't do the jump in effort needed from "okay I can now do a shoryuken" to "okay I can now reliably play footsies and punish my opponents whiffed normals"

at the lower levels of play, learning hard to do tech like that is actually easier to win your matches than rack up the experience needed to win at neutral/footsies/mindgames what have you

>>386833890
>Execution is not the floor. If it was the floor then why do top players not opt for max damage combos 100% of the time?

It's a high floor. If it's something you always want to do if able, it's a floor, not a ceiling.

>>386833890
>>386833702
To add to this, execution goes far beyond doing a DP or QCF in neutral. Stringing together multiple specials during a long combo is very different. Execution counts for the ceiling and the floor, it's a crucial mechanic in terms of skill gaps.

>>386833983
>If it's something you always want to do if able
But you aren't always able, even at top level. Consistency is a part of skill, and making a combo vastly easier automatically increases consistency across the board. It lowers the ceiling.

>>386834107
Do you think not accidentally knocking over the king lowers the skill ceiling in online chess vs live chess?

It's the same shit. When you are executing moves, you are fighting the game, the floor, not the opponent, who is the ceiling.

>>386827186
It won't work.
It might attract more casuals to play briefly, but then the regular fighting-game players will accelerate their neutral game, okizeme, 50/50s, frametraps, crossups, movement, etc, which means the rape will continue in games even if execution is out the window. Rising Thunder is an example of this.
Any player that then dumped the game because of "execution" will find a new reason to dump the game, whether it's because of "bullshit okizeme", "bullshit crossups", "bullshit command grabs", "bullshit resets and corner rape", etc.
You have to accept losses as learning experiences, check your emotions, be willing to work with little reward... And mostly you have to be able to take responsibility for your shortcomings in fighting games. People just aren't willing to do that, too many snowflakes.
Hell look at the most popular games:
>MOBAs.
>PUBG.
>Overwatch.
>BF/CoD.
All low-ceiling team-play garbage. When you lose, you blame your team or some external factor and move on.
If someone can make a team format for fighting games, then you'll see something happen with the genre. As much as I hate to say this, the only realistic chance fighting games have of being popular is in a "blame others" team format. It's possible something not far removed from For Honor will eventually eclipse fighting games.

I love fighting games more than any other genre, they're the only games with legit good gameplay in my opinion. But they're on lifesupport and they're not becoming popular again. Sure, DBZF might sell a million or two copies, but the genre will never be popular for competition ever again imo.

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>>386834249
>The opponent who is the ceiling.
Why are people replying to such an obvious shitposter?

>>386834297
>And mostly you have to be able to take responsibility for your shortcomings in fighting games
fucking this
casuals don't know shit about taking responsibility, they think they're perfect in every way and could never make a mistake
and then they get mad when they're not awarded a trophy for the minimum effort they put in

>>386834249
>When you are executing moves, you are fighting the game
This might be the most retarded thing I've heard. Are you saying a combo or special input takes no skill? Because that's what "fighting the game" implies. It takes practice, skill, and consistency in putting it all together to make it achievable. Making a combo and special easier makes everyone (which is the opponent) better. Even with your logic it still lowers the skill ceiling by putting people on more equal terms by default. The opponents you fight are more similar, the ceiling is lower. Stop being retarded.

http://www.fantasystrike.com/blog/2017/play-fantasy-strike-pre-alpha-free-weekend-august-11-14th-on-pc-and-mac

See you in 5 or so hours.

Can't wait to 10-0 you shitters.

>>386833983
you are confusing ability to execute inputs with consistent and application.

The problem with the idea is skill floors and ceilings it assumes you gain an ability at one stage and that is that. But that isn't how it works, it is a constant process of improvement and finding your own style. Removing this aspects means everyone will now just play optimally so no expression and very little tech to explore.

>>386834405
Yeah, this is why I think a version of something like For Honor done by a proper developer like Arcsys/French could be a legit revival.

>>386834503
>This might be the most retarded thing I've heard. Are you saying a combo or special input takes no skill?

No. What the fuck do you think "fighting" means?

I just think that you are contesting your skill against the GAME instead of against the PLAYER.

I don't think playing a minigame every time I want to interact with the opponent is enhancing the part that I care about, which is the other PLAYER.

>>386834608
the issue I see with making fighting games for honor like multiplayer is that the meta will shift from actual fighting to just ganging up on people and winning with numbers, not skill and experience

it would be real hard to take away that "man on man" aspect of fighting games and still have them be as meaningful as they are

>your average /v/ browser spends most of their time playing games like OW and PUBG and then comes to /v/ to white knight them and accuse everyone who criticizes them of being bad at their favorite casual games
>but when fighting games are brought up, they shit their pants and make up as many excuses as possible to avoid the fact that they're shit at anything that actually requires skill

>>386834297
Actual 10/10 post.

>>386834630
Then why even play a fighting game? Just go play fucking cards or chess instead of baiting in a thread

>>386827186
I don't really like fighting games as a whole. Learning the combos is fun but then it gets into the retarded 1-frame links for maximum damage bullshit followed by a stale metagame with 2 cowardly cunts poking each other until the timer runs out the moment one of them gets a lead. Parry needs to be brought back

>>386834725
Because fighting games are the purest fucking form of doing that shit real time, and are also because they are fun.

I just also want my normie friends to play them with me. They don't have to go online ranked or anything, but there haven1t been a good normie friendly fighting game since Soul Calibur II.

Fighting autist guide to argue:
>1. If somebody complains about inputs, show them the easiest special and say they are easy to do in practice mode
>2. If they still complain, tell them how it's like playing an instrument and other autists agree with you so you are right
>3. If they start making arguments, point out they are casuals and don't want to face their shortcomings, don't ever recognize artificial difficulty in your holy fighters
>4. If you reach this point, personal attacks or any distraction possible
>5. Reply to this post making a guide about "casual fighting players" to ridicule them

>>386830796
What was your point? We should make things easy to do so people don't get years of fun digging through what is possible because? You want it now, tough.

>If you play against someone who can do this and you can't do this, there is literally zero way you can lose.
So a better player with more experience can find unique things and beat worse players. Sounds good, something incredibly good can exist in a system where executing it is hard but not in one where it is hard to do.

Also a scrub like you isn't going to fight a top level player, that isn't how matchmaking works and on discord no good player wants to waste time on real matches with a shitter.

>>386834698
I played For Honor for about a month, and although I found it pretty shallow, and the team formats did favor ganging (to a point), the 1v1 and 2v2 duel modes were more fighting-game-like.

Compromise like this is needed to make the genre popular, aka you have to pack a bunch of games together:
>Fighting game, 1v1.
>MOBA modes.
>Lootcrate shit.
>Leveling and customization.
You will attract the "blame" crowd if you add a bunch of this bullshit.

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It's always this same fucking thread

They already made the perfect accessible fighter, it's called samurai shodown, go play it now instead of bitching about an entire medium.

>>386832161
>>Removes a risk/reward decision during combos, no longer have high damage/high execution vs average damage/low execution etc.
Instead the risk reward decision is focused on the neutral, where you either play it safe with the fast/long-reaching moves, or throw out your stronger/slower big moves that will leave you unsafe if it's blocked.

Beyond the basics, combos add nothing to a game. You can remove combos almost entirely, but everything else can stay, all other mechanics can more or less be exactly as they are, even shit like FADC or other cancels at the cost of meter to make risky moves safe in a limited capacity, but remove excessively long combos and fighting games become a million times better and more accessible without losing anything of actual worth when it comes to fighting your opponent.

Three or four hit combos are ideal, the kind of length that you can use for mixups, opening up an opponent, crossovers, corner carrying, canceling into a safer/stronger string, positioning and setting up, all the stuff we're used to in every fighting game today; combos that need a movelist sequence that runs down the whole screen are stupid and only contribute to playing against the game, not against the opponent.

Fuck combos.

>>386834630
>skill against the GAME instead of against the PLAYER.
But the whole point is you are testing your skill in the GAME against the PLAYER and their skill in the GAME. This is like saying instead of playing football we will think at each other about playing football, cause playing against the GAME proves nothing

>>386834893
>So a better player with more experience can find unique things and beat worse players.

You don't need inputs for this tho. That's the crux of his argument.

The better player will win, regardless of how hard the execution in the game is. So why have that extra step?

>>386834773
Huh?

Tekken is pretty normie friendly dude.

>>386834960
Look, as long combos don't let you do over 20% of the opponent HP bar they are cool.
It's retarded if they take half of your HP for fucking up once.

>>386835001
This is exactly why football is not an accessible sport while, say, chess, is.

>>386835057
See >>386831067

>>386834826
Anti-Fighting autists guide to argue:
>1. If someone says the inputs are easy, argue that they're not easy because you can't do them.
>2. If people agree with them, never admit your own mistake. You know better.
>3. Keep arguing about things you obviously don't know anything about, since you admit that you can't even do the inputs. You know everything there is to know about fighting games.
>4. When they beat you at your arguments, say that fighting games have bad game design. Your degree in game design will back you up on that.

>>386835021
>You don't need inputs for this tho.
But without in the better player has less options to deal with different situations. If they will beat them come what may why gimp the game and better player so you can lose still? All you have done is made the game less enjoyable for good players

This whole stupid idea seems to rely on the idea that worse players must always face better players when that isn't how it works.

>>386835093
>football is not an accessible sport
you mean one of if no the most popular sports? kinda shows how stupid accessibility is then

>>386835145
>actually follows the 5th point
Kek

I take this is ironic

>>386835093
I dont see how that changes tekken being normie friendly.

Yea the better player will still stomp you into the ground, but executing most things is ez. Tekken's difficulty comes from character matchups and general knowledge.

Most normie friends won't give a shit about that stuff outside of being mad at Eddie occasionally. All the care about is being able to pull off the cool move.

>>386835172
>But without in the better player has less options to deal with different situations.

But this isn't true.

Look >>386832237
And that's something I made up in 5 seconds.

> If they will beat them come what may why gimp the game and better player so you can lose still?

But the better player won't lose? That's what makes him a better player. Are you saying Daigo/whoever is top dog right now would lose more if he had to execute less?

>This whole stupid idea seems to rely on the idea that worse players must always face better players when that isn't how it works.

Where was this even implied?

The solution to the problem is really simple.

Make casual fighting games. Let casuals play them.
Make fighting games. Let fighting game players play them.

No reason to have pro boxers fight amateurs. They'll get there eventually, or they won't who cares. Pro boxers are more interesting anyway.

>>386834960
>Instead the risk reward decision is focused on the neutral, where you either play it safe with the fast/long-reaching moves, or throw out your stronger/slower big moves that will leave you unsafe if it's blocked.
That's already in every single fighting game ever. There's no added risk/reward system over a regular fighting game. It's a watered down game that appeals to its target demographic.
>>386835021
>The better player will always win
Not always true, and not really a valid argument. Inputs add depth by adding complexity. What defines a "better player" to you? Maybe one player has high execution and will kill in 3 combos, while the other player is strong on defense and neutral and can win more exchanges. This kind of scenario doesn't exist in things like FS. When you play someone of similar skill, there's rarely ever a clear cut across the board better player. If you're playing people that shitstomp you anyway then what does this achieve?

>>386835314
>But this isn't true.
You already have multiple replies to that post and the implications it has. But the simple answer is easy inputs means everyone can play optimally anyway so everyone will do the same stuff. So no you didn't solve that at all

>But the better player won't lose?
That isn't what I said, the worse player will still lose so you've not helped anything. Just made a worse game.

>Where was this even implied?
Cause examples always default to that cause against equally skilled players there is no issue. they both hav ethe same execution skills

>>386835357
The problem arises when the casual design ideas start to creep into real fighting games

>>386827186

why do all of these games look so hideous

>>386829208
>But not for everyone
So? Why does every genre and every game have to be for everyone? I don't play FPS and demand they cater to me and remove aiming because I don't have the skills to do it.

>and games where you learn a lot of the mechanical stuff already exist.
So why aren't you arguing those games become more "accessible"?

>>386835405
>What defines a "better player" to you?
...

The one who wins, and so is evidently better at the game? Is this some sort of trick question?

>>386827186
>astronomy
>legit

Fuck off with this zodiac bullshit

>>386829912
In otherwords you play video games for everything but the gameplay.

>My time is too valuable for that.
>shitposts on 4chan

>>386835475
Aiming is not a fucking "execution barrier", it's just "execution".

Having to do an SRK to throw a grenade instead of pushing a button would be an execution barrier.

>>386835357
This but make the "casual fighting games" actually just "low floor, high ceiling" with easy inputs but more tech needed like Smash.

Easy to play, hard to master is always the best formula because it attracts pros and casuals alike and it encourages improving because there is never a huge wall or a entry barrier.

>>386835516
That's astrology

>>386827186
This game is being heavily shilled over here, Jesus. Execution is part of the fun, not a barrier to it. Training and pulling off neat combos is fun.

>>386835480
Except there's multiple things to be good at and multiple styles to achieve a win. You can beat a player has A offense/ A execution/C defense/B neutral by poking at their weaknesses. People are not perfect all around and skill gaps are progressively widened. For example I consistently beat someone at our weekly tournaments who's considered top 5 in the state, yet I lose to everyone else. Does that make me better than him?

>>386835473
Because they are made in a cave from a box of scraps by dedicated enthusiasts, not by Blizzard's marketing department.

>>386835634
In practice mode and with CPUs, yes, I have fun too.
Even if it's specials more than combos.

Otherwise no, it's a barrier that doesn't allow you to focus on the metagame, position and generally the fun part.

>>386835545
Aiming is an execution barrier, if you don't know how to aim you can't play the game at a competative level

>Having to do an SRK to throw a grenade instead of pushing a button
This is a retarded comparison. A more relevant example would just be pushing a button to automatically aim at someone's head and shoot without having to worry about positioning or ammo.

>>386835639
Then he is not a top player and the skill of competition for that game is so low that upsets like that can still happen.

It could also be your familiarity with that particular player or some character specific matchup.

>>386835730
>it's a barrier that doesn't allow you to focus on the metagame
It's not a barrier though. And the obsession with meta isn't fun at all.

>>386835547
This isn't a popular formula though.
It didn't seem to work for Smash for example, to make it a "popular" fighting game.
It was two games rolled in one:
1. Super popular casual party game that people play for 10 minutes.
2. Sub 0.1% people playing it as a fighting game.

>>386833832
All I did was play with other people

>>386835314
>Are you saying Daigo/whoever is top dog right now would lose more if he had to execute less?
In a a game where execution is easier so more people can more readily hit max damage the match does become more uncertain. SFV is just that, lower execution requirements means people more easily hit the big combos causing many pros to complain about how hard consistency is.

Higher execution would mean this wasn't an issue, reducing execution further creates an even bigger issue.

>>386835736
>Aiming is an execution barrier, if you don't know how to aim you can't play the game at a competative level

You aim by pointing the mouse at the target. That is not a barrier, that's how aiming works.

Trying to remove that would be like trying to remove pressing buttons at all.

>This is a retarded comparison

It's spot on though.

> A more relevant example would just be pushing a button to automatically aim at someone's head and shoot without having to worry about positioning or ammo.

Now, there's what I'd call a retarded argument.

>>386835791
But that's where the actual competition lies.

>>386835806
>It didn't seem to work for Smash for example, to make it a "popular" fighting game.
But Smash is popular.

>1. Super popular casual party game that people play for 10 minutes.
That's what Sakurai wanted, ironically.

>2. Sub 0.1% people playing it as a fighting game.
Literally no. Smash has one of the largest player bases

>>386835857
Bullshit. Even in Smash you use training mode to learn characters for 10 minutes, but still...

>>386835860
SFVs problem is design in general, not low execution. SFII had less execution requirements than SFV and it was mroe consistent.

>>386835357
Hey anon do you want to go to Weenie Hut or Salty Spitoon. What person is willingly gonna admit they want to be a bitch?

never mind IP will always have more weight

>>386835913
Those would go to either one of the other two walls.

>>386835957
>not low execution
it is a huge aspect of it. Make higher damage more difficult and reduce for consistently someone can do it and now the game is way less volatile and comebacks require work again.

>SFII had less execution requirements than SFV
wrong

>>386835948
Smash isn't a popular fighting game.
It has less consistently than SF, or any weeb games at Arcrevo cup, and the games beating it aren't popular either.
Smash was popular as a casual party game though.

>>386836118
>wrong
Prove it.

I'll give you 1 point for 1 frame reversals but -100 points for everything else.

>>386836187
What? Isn't it literally the same 8 people at evo every year?

>>386836267
Less entrants consistently*

>>386836002
This is not true. consistent l canceling or wave dashing are pretty much the most difficult moves in any fighting game

>>386836341
So they are execution requirement (first wall) that also happens to be system specific (second wall).

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Friendly Reminder that the guy who started this thread has said in previous threads that he can't DP after playing for months.

>>386836341
Absolutely retarded.
Coming from Tekken, I had zero problems doing this within 15 minutes.
I still can't do Acid Rain consistently in Tekken.
I still can't do 6h to Mist-Cancel Treasure Hunt in Rev2.
Even pros in GGAC/+/R almost never even try to Slashback.

>>386836432
... there were previous threads?

>>386827186
unless there's more to achieve in the fighting game than beating the opponent i just can't stay interested. If i had real life friends it would be different.

>>386836573
>... there were previous threads?
Of course when threads get such easy (you)s for what is clearly shiposting they will keep getting made.

https://boards.fireden.net/v/thread/386733050/#386747543

>>386836187
>Smash isn't a popular fighting game
>Consistently less entrants
This is Melee specifically:
EVO 2013: 700 entrants, 3rd behind SF4 and MvC 3
2014: 900 entrants, 3rd again behind SF and Marvel
2015: 1.8k entrants, 3rd behind SF and Smash 4 (barely)
2016: 2.3k entrants, 3rd again by SF and Smash 4
2017: 1.4k entrants, 3rd behind the same. Note overall EVO attendance was massively down this year too for all games.
This isn't going in to the fact that most Smash tournaments are Smash only. Compare say Combo Breaker or CEO and Smash n' Splash. Big tournaments most players consider a top 3 or top 5 important tournaments for the year. Smash n Splash had 800 Melee entrants, CEO and CB had ~300-500 SFV entrants.
>>386836341
That's dumb and not remotely true. I play both Smash games + GG and UNIEL. Wavedash and L-canceling are basic as fuck and about equal as efficient roman cancels. The hard things in Smash come from advance tech like waveshine OoS or pivot fsmash for Marth etc.

The barrier to Super Smash Bros. Melee is even higher but it's the second most popular fighting game right now. Only second to Street Fighter.
The technical ceiling shouldn't be a barrier unless you're a casual kid. In which case, why even get into competitive games?

>>386837289
yep, this is true.
I have been keeping track of entrant numbers for all games as well and Melee has been consistently growing each year. 2017 was a bad year for all games.

>>386837307
Why do people get into melee if it's a 16 year old game that will do nothing but destroy your hands and wrist?

>>386832212
>DP motions exist for a reason
A stupid reason that is not real.
Shoryuken could be 214+P instead of 623+P and not a damn thing would change.

Just getting it out of the way, some previous arguments for the Z motions
>If you're starting with forward, then you aren't blocking when you do the DP, so there's risk
If you start with down, you aren't blocking. You wont be blocking the overhead with down-back, either.

>The crouch after pressing forward will lower your hitbox to defend you partially while you perform it
It is easier to perform the single smooth motion of a QC than the Z-Motion. Your hitbox starts off crouching if it were QCB and you'd press punch on the same/next frame you'd reach back, anyway. You input these motions so fucking fast that your stance doesn't actually matter. You won't be guarding the jump-in if you're too slow, and you're crouching in both cases.

>If it's quarter back, then what if you accidentally DP when trying a reversal?
What if you accidentally QCF? If you're trying to attack in the middle of a blockstring, isn't the DP one of the best reversals you have? It would be the ultimate answer to an overhead/jump mixup. The only reason you'd make the QCB motion and punch immediately afterwards is if you are standing up to block high.

Doesn't matter if it's easy or difficult to perform, Z motion is not intuitive, and few characters have so many special moves that they would fill up every Quarter Circle direction and need to go into motions like Z. Street Fighter is rather wasteful anyway, having six buttons but a single special often takes up three buttons. Redundant moves of differing power even though you're only going to use just one at all times or two for their difference in speed. SF characters sure as hell didn't lose any functionality in SNK crossovers with 4 buttons. Hell, you could put Hadouken & Shoryuken on different punch buttons with the same QCF motion and you won't lose a thing functionality wise.

>>386837425
That's only really a thing if you play Fox or had bad genes. Any kind of proper care prevents it. People like Hax just got unlucky, people like M2K are just stupid.

>>386837532
>A stupid reason that is not real.
A DP does a large chunk of damage and is invincible for the active duration. It's also usually fast as shit.
>Shoryuken could be 214+P instead of 623+P and not a damn thing would change.
Are you seriously saying that being able to input an invincible reversal move WHILE BLOCKING would not change a damn thing? You clearly know jack shit about fighting game design and need to think critically about why certain things are the way they are.

It's not just pure tradition for tradition's sake.

>>386835730
Being able to pull of the very best combos for each possible situation is part of the "meta" too. And "positioning" yourself to pull off said combos is also part of it. When you remove the complexity of combos, you end up with a very superficial experience.

>>386837754
SCII has like 0 combos and it's anything but superficial.

>>386837532
>Shoryuken could be 214+P
So you could block for the majority of it greatly reducing the risk?

>If you start with down, you aren't blocking.
Lets lay it out real simple for you

6-not blocking
2-not blocking
3-not blocking

2-not blocking
1-blocking
4-blocking

>It is easier to perform the single smooth motion
623 has two crouching parts

>What if you accidentally QCF?
That isn't the same motion though

>>386837532
>If you start with down, you aren't blocking. You wont be blocking the overhead with down-back, either.
Considering you'd only have to press each of the individual directions for a single frame, this is completely irrelevant.

Nobody is going to be able to hit you on the 1 frame you're pressing 2 or 1 unless you're slow as shit, at which point the DP wouldn't come out because you're inputting it so slowly.

>it's easier to perform the single smooth motion of a QC than the Z-Motion
It's basically the same motion with a single direction added. And what does being easier matter anyways? DP is more rewarding than fireball, so it should have a more complex input.

>WHat if you accidentally QCF
You SHOULD be punished for not having clean execution. Goddamn dude, what if you pressed kick when you wanted to punch instead? It's your mistake. Own up to it.

If a casual decides to button mash and not even bother to learn about blocking, then he has no right to complain about barriers

Fighters with simple commands already exist and yet these wannabes still ignore and fiddle around then boast if they get lucky or cry if they get bodied

So this talk about accessibility is pointless if the autist never decides to learning the game

>>386827186

Accessibility helps to a point.

For example, I'm one of the few people who actively despised Rising Thunder because it was essentially just SF4 with isms and one-touch specials with obtuse cooldown rules. Shilling the game as casual friendly was a big mistake. There's nothing you could teach someone in RT that you couldn't teach in another, more competent fighting game.

Fantasy Strike does better in that it's willing to strip away mechanics, but I think people are crazy if they really believe it will cause some kind of FGC Rennaissance. Even if it does get big, and people do get good at it, they won't move on to other games because in other games they have to deal with exponentially more tech and will get blown up. And where will they go? Back to Fantasy Strike.

Maybe I'm underestimating the average person, but I've been called a cheater/other nonsense for just knowing how to do links in SF4 and punishing jump ins. I have a very low opinion of newbies.

>>386837867
At least in the case of Fantasy Strike, that seems to be the case. It proposes to be similar to classic 2D fighting games while streamlining the process, which is cool, but that doesn't mean that reducing complexity is something that will result in a more fun experience necessarily.

The devs themselves seem to be aware of this, though. The video suggests that the game might be a good entry-point the rest of the genre, which might indeed happen even if it doesn't seem that likely.

One thing everyone needs to realize is there is no difference between "combos, reversals, and game specific techniques" and "tactics, decision making and fun". What kind of decisions do you want to make if you don't even know your buttons and moves? You want the entire game to be a rock paper scissor match between meaties, throws and reversals? People who argue like that don't want informed weighing of and deciding from a multitude of options, they want gambling

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>>386838326
No, that's entirely the case. Fantasy Strike fails at doing anything everlasting to the FGC. It's goal is to create a casual fighting game that you can show your literal children or normies who don't play. It's even in their KS pitch. It's a one-off product that will barely bring new blood in to other games, and probably only cause MORE anger in the form of "Why isn't every game like this? Capcom needs to change SF to be exactly this way"

>>386837867
But SCII introduces new complexities like different shaped stages but with ring outs. Some very good players know how and what to use to get these quickly require requires good move, combo, stage and character knowledge being applied.

The problem with FS is it rips out complexities and expects the game to be good, SCII chose a different path of complexities

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>>386838776

>>386837289
I should have been more clear. This isn't a goalpost swap either, but genuinely what I was implying:
>Fighting games aren't a popular genre, and Smash isn't popular as a fighting game -- it was popular as a party game however. Furthermore, it's less popular than SF and anime games in Japan, which aren't particularly popular in their own right either.

>>386827186
>and fun
Fuck off

>>386837390
>Melee has been consistently growing each year

Because of Smash 4.

>>386839296
>B-but japan.
Sales in japan only matter for pedo vita games and a few extremely grindy RPGs otherwise the west drives the majority of the game market. Most nips only play gatcha phone games these days. There is nothing more pathetic than people using nip sales as an argument as if the 400k copies of a game that move over there even matter in the overall market.

>>386839296
Smash 4 is fairly popular in Japan in comparison to the other big games. Smash 4 in Japan is probably to the level of popularity that MvC 3 was here a couple years ago. It's big enough to get a slot in EVO Japan when Melee didn't. Smash gained popularity as a party game initially, but now it's maintained popularity and continued to grow due to being known as a competitive game. What's the basis of "popular" anyway? SF and GG/BB are fairly popular there in the scope of FGC.

>>386837532
Try walking forward and doing a 623 input and then try walking backwards and doing a 623 input. And then tell me "nothing changed".

Every input has it's very specific quirk when inputting it that is very ingrained in not just the design of the specific moves, but every characters movelist in general. It makes a HUGE difference in playstyle whether or not your character has a strong antiair move by doing a dp or a quarter circle, as well as whether or not you can block during the input.

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>>386839213

low entry point, high skill potential is the absolute best thing that can ever happen to any game and you cant argue with that
given the game has proper matchmaking that is

>>386839906
what constitutes the point of entry is arguable, people want the """high skill experience""" right off the bat without putting in any work so skill ceiling and floor gets lowered simultaneously to please shitters

you can pick up and mash random buttons in any fighting game, there's your low point of entry

>>386839906
Indeed

>>386831260
>it wouldn't be good to have a computer read your mind and digitize the music directly from your head
get the fuck out of here

>>386839906
Don't think anyone argues that, but such a game doesn't exist. The closest example would be Smash 4. No crazy advance tech, basic game knowledge and good neutral are how you win at entry level but it has an apparent skill gap.

>>386840091
>people want the """high skill experience""" right off the bat
citation
cause as far as im aware mind reading is not a thing
>so skill ceiling and floor gets lowered simultaneously
designers fault, irrelevant to the argument
>you can pick up and mash random buttons in any fighting game, there's your low point of entry
and you can throw chess pieces at each other for fun. that doesnt mean youre playing chess

>>386840259
>but such a game doesn't exist.
people want it to exist and fg autists light up the torches and sharpen their rakes

>>386839213
>The Tetris player is at a slight disadvantage.

>>386840539
>fg autists don't want it
Except they do. Literally everyone does. The problem exists because it's a hard balance and often a sacrifice is made somewhere down the line that ruins that delicate balance, making one party dislike the game.

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>>386840539
>people want it to exist

>>386840667
>Except they do
>just read through the thread
>people complaining about muh dumbing down
>get out of my genre play tetris
>its not a genre for you stop trying to ruin it
>these damn casuals just want the easy win right away with zero effort
>i dont unredstand any counter arguments so im going to say that youre a casual idiot without an argument

>>386839360
??
Melee was growing each year even before Smash4 existed.

>>386840716
if youre making an argument "small numbers means they dont" youre shooting yourself in the foot cause fighting games are the most dead genre along with rts games comparatively

>>386840749
Because people are arguing facts on both sides. FS is not a perfect example of low entry high ceiling. People are claiming it is, other people are refuting. People don't want a game like this to exist because it's a proven way to fuck up your game up to this point. If it came out and had that perfect balance, nobody would care. If both a multi-year player and 2 week player could feel stimulated and rewarded, then there'd be no problem.
>>386840843
Fighting games are literally getting TV shows and ESPN airings in America.

>its another fantasy strike shill thread
The game is garbage and looks like shit on top of it. Fuck off

>>386840843
597 is less than even completely obscure anime games sell, meanwhile injustice 2 sold 5 million

Where are all these people who want it so badly?

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How to make the perfect fighting game:
>input commands limited to directional inputs, quarter/half circles, charge inputs and multi button presses
>reasonably sized moves list, no two page long moves list bullshit
>combos are short and sweet
>limited sub-systems like unique meters etc.
>no 1f links or extremely strict combo timings

>>386841069
This is almost UNIEL. Almost.

>>386841069
Whats wrong with full circles baby boy? Does your arm hurt from churning?

>>386840983
>People are claiming it is, other people are refuting
how can they its not even out yet is it?
and im sure as fuck people "refuting" never touched or even looked at a video of it properly

>If it came out and had that perfect balance
name a single game in history that does this

>If both a multi-year player and 2 week player could feel stimulated
why wouldn't they be?

>>386840983
>>386841017
>comparatively
as i said, still the deadest genre along with rts

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I play video games to have fun.
I understand that many video games require you to learn their mechanics and that it will take time to become proficient.
But with most games, I find learning how to play the game fun in itself. Even if there is a short period of the game that is just learning controls and mechanics, usually games throw you into the action quickly enough and you're allowed to learn the game by playing it yourself.

For me at least, fighting games are different.
I don't find practicing special move inputs and combos and the more intricate mechanics fun. If you do, more power to you. I envy you.
I don't want to spend hours or days spending my time doing something that I don't have to do and I don't find fun just because I might have fun with it down the line.

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Reminder that fags complaining about "muh inputs" are just mad because they spent hundreds of hours in training mode just to have fun and now there is a game that does not require it, and they feel like they need to value the time they wasted
>its casualized now!
>its dumb and has no depth!

>>386841228
>how can they its not even out yet is it?
It's had free weekends before and one opening later today
>name a single game in history that does this
There isn't one, that's the point. Pretty sure we're on the same side here anon.
>>386841275
FG's are growing, RTS is on a decline.

>>386841378
You are talking like this game will ever be relevant.

>>386841153
why almost? never played it

>>386841226
Why don't you learn how to fight in real life? Your body too fat from sitting around all day? You goddamned pussy.

>>386841275
How is 5 million for one game comparatively dead? maybe against the very best selling game that year. Even doing 1 million is not doing bad

Where are all these people who want a simplified game so badly?

As someone who mains Jack-O in GGXrd and has the option of a DP attack on 1D input, you people saying inputs are pointless disgust me. There is a world of difference between having certain attacks available on block or not.

>>386840539
See here's the thing, have you seen the Rising Thunder forums when that game was still around. It was CHOCK FULL of people going "waah this is broken" "that is broken" "fireballs too strong" "my opponent is a cheap spammer" "what the fuck he did a HUGE COMBO"... people are unwilling to work for anything. They want to feel like they're hot shit without actually being hot shit. You can make a game as accessible as you want, it's still a zero sum battle of wits with a living, breathing opponent, that's what makes it tough. Not the uppercut motion. It's the fact that someone who's experienced with the genre will figure out your bad habits and ride them all the way to victory. The self reflection necessary to go "okay, I fucked up, the other guy outplayed me, what do I need to change up" - THAT is what you need to be playing a fighting game. That is the base requirement where you can consider it 'actually playing' and not throwing chess pieces at each other. That is the entry point. It's too high for many people. Designers can not do a thing about it.

>>386841473
>implying i wouldnt beat the shit out of you
Tell me where you live. Im coming tomorrow.

>>386841491
S-shut up everyone is waiting for this game to come out. It will have millions of people playing it, they just dont know about it yet. Thats why we are doing these threads, so everyone can know about our game, Fantasy Strike

>>386841318
This anon, this.
Having fun with the game helps a lot with wanting to learn more about it, and get into it on a deeper more complex level.
Allowing people to instantly start playing the game itself without barriers, instead of making them have to first do all this additional work and training to then start playing the game.
Some people like the mechanical aspect, I like the tactical (?) and timing and decision making aspect of the fighting games, but its not like I want fighting games to become what I like and stop being what they like, I just want a fighting game or two for myself, and people like me.

>>386841494
You think you want inputs, but you really dont. No one wants them. Play our game, Fantasy Strike, and you will understand why this is the future of fighting games.

>>386841491
the game sold high comparatively to single player games
low comparatively to multiplayer games

>>386841565
Do you realize how much you sound like a faggot?
Not to say that you don't have a point but you delivered it in such a faggy way.
"people who play fighting games are better than everyone else, because we don't blame others on our failure. no, if you blame others for your failure, then you are not playing fighting games. those people that have spent thousands of hours playing fighting games and still blame others when they fail? they aren't real fighting game players. they have not been playing fighting games. the privilege of being able to say that you play fighting games is only available to a select few extraordinary human beings who have the intelligence, discipline, and wisdom to accept their defeat and constantly seek improvement."

>>386841565
>going to forums
>ever
>shocked they are filled with drooling retards
not talking about those people, those people are irrelevant to the conversation and would complain if god himself gave them a golden burger

>>386841318
>I don't like this
>Change it so I might like it
no

>>386841810
>, I like the tactical (?) and timing and decision making aspect
You are a scrub who can't do inputs so instead idolized other parts and said If I could do that part then everything would be fine. Once that barrier is gone you will complain about another

>>386841565
>everyone who wants simplified fighting games is a scrub that always complains and has no honestly to himself ever and can never admit hes wrong
really puts your position into perspective

>>386827186
I don't believe in putting in that much effort to master the game for the sake of considering it fun.

File: 1501927143087.gif (564KB, 800x430px) Image search: [Google]

564KB, 800x430px

>>386841565
>as if people didnt complain about spam and characters being op in normal fighting games
yeah keep being delusional. fighting game players can be faggots too

>>386827186
>reddit-like posting
fuck off with your yt advertising

>>386827186
I like how the narrator completely ignores smash because it's the perfect balance of accessibility and complexity in fighting games.

>>386841891
Why do people make single players games if they sell less than multiplayer ones? I mean, its not like they cost less to make.

>>386842005
>You are a scrub who can't etc etc
>everyone who wants simple controls is a scrub retard whiner
how can you live with yourself with a mind as shut as this to possible alternative motivations of people you disagree with?
do you just always put everyone who doesn't share your opinion into your "disregard as inferior" bucket and start flexing your superiority?

>>386841891
>low comparatively to multiplayer games
Nope, they have sold better than many other multiplayer games.

Tekken and injustice 2 have done amazingly well against both types. Injustice is the 6th best selling game of 2017 and has been out for less time than many games on that list
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/top-10-best-selling-games-in-the-us-during-june-20/1100-6451869/

>>386841452
UNIEL mostly uses QCF and QCB, a few DPs, barely Z-motions. Movelists are very small, it's usually about 3 specials (with their L/M/H variants.) Combo's CAN be difficult depending on character, but most can hit 2.5-3k range with a basic BnB. Combos are also just lightly too long but still tame by anime standards. No effective airdash makes it a ground based/footsie game.
Sub-system is iffy, the meter is fairly basic but has a lot of function. Hard to explain. Combo strictness is fairly low except some ridiculous ass characters, even then you can opt out and go for respectable low dmg ones instead.
Official tutorial:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT81K40ew3s
A quick and dirty of it that's good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTkoGP-0Z-s&t=596s

>>386842137
Not even a passing mention about it not being a "real fighting game"? Weird.