What is the Most Overrated Fighting Game

>Trick yourself into thinking a poorly designed game should be competitive
>When it's from a series whose main aspect is the crossover part of video game characters fighting each other

>>386555516
It did create its own subgenre so it's hardly overrated. It's just that melee fans are really autistic.

>>386555669
Your green text only supports my points. Thanks goy.

>>386555773
Agreed. Melee is iconic (and honestly pretty fun to play), but the fanbase is so irrational that they are effectively the ones who make the game overrated. Sm4sh is a worthy successor, and I wish more people played it.

Melee has seemingly exhausted its metagame evolution, but fans of the game will point out that the smash 4 metagame isn't deep despite it's only being out for three years. If no one plays it, then ofc it will take longer to evolve.

>>386555516
On the plus side, the level of content, mainly in modes, is pretty good.
What makes a character viable anyway?

>>386555516
its not a fighting game

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>>386555516
>that is, it is much more gimmicky than smash 4

bait


>exploitable glitches

irrelevant

>less diversity than Brawl

lol. everyone played metaknight. bait

- Even if it has 5-7 viable character (wich it dont), a game with 5 good characters is better than one with 300 uninteresting ones.

- Muscle memory will take you nowhere. Youll see this as referenced as the "autopilot mode", wich is the doom of many skilled players. The moment you mind splits out of concentration for a second, you might lose a stock. I say this from experience.

- On the competitive side, seeing familiar faces is actually nice. You get to develop a relation with the people, and the whole thing sometimes seems more like a TV show than a real thing, thats why there is the joke about Melee being scripted, because their characters and the events sometimes are so good to be random.

>>386556359
No one will take your words seriously if you don't provide at least some reasoning for them. Take this as life advice, kiddo.

>>386556510
https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2013/jun/21/sakurai-says-smash-bros-isnt-fighting-game-completely-different-label-talks-game-development-fighting-genre-and-value-unpredictability/

>>386556321
>What makes a character viable anyway?

A character's maximum output in relation to other characters in the game. Bowser player in the world will lose 75% of the time to Marth if both players are of relatively equal skill ceteris paribus

>>386556427
Project M, not Brawl. My b. Brawl is my least favorite in the series.

Exploitable glitches are not irrelevant btw.

>>386556465
I can assent to the game being good/influential/entertaining while also viewing it as overrated. It requires no cognitive dissonance.

Simply being critical of the things one likes.

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>>386556820
>Exploitable glitches are not irrelevant btw

those glitches add to the game. wave dashing is good for the game. who cares if it was intentional or not? it's in the game now.

Anyone want to netplay on west coast? Tell me version and code if you want

>>386556708
the gap between, say, Cloud and Ganondorf in Sm4sh is much smaller than Marth and Bowser in Melee.

>>386556820
Brawl was actually extremely fun competitively and balanced without ICs and MK. We had a few tournaments with them banned and there was a huge diversity of viable characters.

>>386556963
My point is that while it might entertaining to play/watch, no competent fighting game developer would intentionally include something like that in the game.

I accept Melee for what it is. Why are melee fans so resistant to criticism?

>>386555516
>Muscle memory and tech skill is much MUCH more important than strategy or mind games-- that is, it is much more gimmicky than smash 4
That's just false. Smash games require the least muscle memory possible.

Other than that I can only agree Melee shouldn't have been taken to competitive levels, but the game is still good and fun - also outdated since Brawl and Sm4ash exist tho.

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>>386557262
>no competent fighting game developer would intentionally include something like that in the game.

like I said, irrelevant. it's in the game now. which is good for the game.

>>386557120
I suppose that could be said about any fighting game with a wildly unbalanced tier list. "If you ban xyz, then it opens up the playability of other characters."

I thought PM did a pretty decent job of balancing out Brawl.

>>386557262
Probably because most criticism they receive is just mindless hate from people who don't understand the appeal, and call people tourneyfags.

There are top players who wish aspects of the game were different, so they aren't blind to the games flaws.

>>386556597
He basically just said "don't call it a fighting game because otherwise people think it's SF"

>>386557331
Let me clarify. It requires MUCH more tech skill than the subsequent games in the series.

I didn't mean to say that it requires a whole lot of muscle memory. I picked up melee last night after six months of not playing it, and faired quite alright, for example.

>>386557398
Let's agree to disagree, then.

I have the same sort of holdups about people who speedrun games while using glitches vs wholesome runs where the person just knows the game inside-out.

>>386557573
It's true it requires way more tech skill, but that skill allows you to do a lot more cool shit in the game than you can pull off in the other games, so it feels rewarding

>>386557573
You mean because of the glitches that aren't present in other games? I'm glad they fixed them actually, especially chaingrabbing

>>386555516
>Only 5-7 viable characters (out of 26!)
In autist culture maybe
>So. Many. Clones.
Does that take away from the game?
>Muscle memory and tech skill is much MUCH more important than strategy or mind games-- that is, it is much more gimmicky than smash 4
>more gimmicky than smash 4
wew
>Exploitable glitches
You don't have to use them, and you can't patch a game that came out 16 years ago like you can tr4sh every time there's the slightest problem
>Comparatively, there is much less diversity than Brawl
It did have less diversity than brawl counting subspace and all the extra characters because they could reuse old designs.
>or Sm4sh
This is b8, isn't it.

>>386557482
But what makes a game overrated is the perceived quality of the game that the community as a whole puts on it. Pointing out some counterexamples ("there are top players...") doesn't refute my point.

>>386557731
How could chaingrabbing even be remotely thought of as a glitch? You might not like it, but it's not a glitch. Besides, didn't characters in brawl have chaingrabs anyway

>>386557889
Yeah, wasn't fixed in Brawl yet, it was finally removed in Sm4sh by simply giving a 60 frame timer before grabbing again.

Not a glitch technically speaking, but still an oversight probably - hence fixed.

>>386557742
>complains that developers are in a position to correct their mistakes

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>>386557717
>wholesome runs

wew lad

>>386558080
>implying they should release a game early instead of smoothing it out first
and having at least 1 good offline mode

>>386558172
Jalen Rose looks very disappointed with me. Doesn't bother me though, he couldn't even bring a championship to Ann Arbor in two tries.

>>386557838
People still play melee because it offers things that no other game offers. Sure smash 4 is the same kind of game, but the speed, combo potential, ability to express yourself are not alike. It's cool if you think it's overrated, but compared to what? Maybe if later games in the series offered those feelings I mentioned then they would be more popular among melee players.

People are free to enjoy other games more, I don't personally go around saying melee is the greatest game ever, but people who dump a decade of their lives into something are going to passionate about it possibly to an annoying degree, that's true of any hobby

>>386556259
The reason I like melee over sm4sh isn't the metagame, its the movement options.

I can live without wave dashing but dash dancing is my favorite part of melee and you can't do it in smash 4.

>>386558256
Nah I think that they should strive to put out the best possible product that they are capable of at the time of release. But many errors only present themselves after a sufficient amount of time. Thus it is a good thing to have updates.

Nintendo's sin is not nearly as bad as say, EA and Mass Effect 3, where it was obvious that they didn't put their best foot forward. ME3 isn't a game that should require fine-tuning and balancing.

>>386558329
I'm with you on all of your points. I got Melee the day it came out, and have been playing it for a long time, but I just really enjoy Sm4sh.

I don't think it is a terrible game. I suppose that my determination of Melee being overrated is in relation to the sentiment that 4 is *obviously* subpar.

>>386558341
That's fair. I can wavedash, but I just get bored with it. Sm4sh has a much more expansive air game-- which I love.

The so called glitches dont affect the game in any negative way. They add layers of depth trough movement options. Is basically like Rocket-Jumping. Something not considered, but that the engine allows.

Now movement has nothing to do with muscle memory. It just makes things faster. Making you think fast, and react fast.

A melee match is a thing of beauty in wich important desicion are taken every fraction of a second.

>>386555516
>Super Smash Bros
>Fighting Game

>>386555516
Marvel vs Capcom 2. Like five viable characters in a cast with over fifty. Justin Wong has seven EVOs. Most capcom fans don't even play capcom games.

>>386559470
>A melee match is a thing of beauty in wich important desicion are taken every fraction of a second.

I really do enjoy this aspect of Melee. I was using the word "glitch" too loosely. What I mean by it is something like "the limits of the engine support a playing style that would not be incorporated by design, and in fact hasn't been incorporated in fighting games since then."

Why is this bad? It isn't, inherently. I'm just saying that Melee-first fans shouldn't blame people for disliking that aspect.

>>386557262
>no competent fighting game developer would intentionally include something like that in the game.
Nigger it's only called wavedashing because that's what the mechanic in Tekken (and later Marvel 3) is called. Why do melee haters never know shit about fighting games?

>>386560129
Both l canceling and wave dashing were intentional design decisions.

>>386559470
I've read, numerous times, Melee fans dogging Hungry Box when he first starting using Jigglypuff on account of her being a gimmicky character. They use the same reasoning within the context of the game itself. Don't see why it cannot be applied externally.

>>386560240
Excuse me, faggot, I should have said "competent game designer." Newer fighting games-- as in ones released c. 2014 don't include that shit.

When the newer engines are easier to fine-tune and control, the mechanic vanishes. That is, when fighting games become more realistic, that mechanic is no where to be seen.

Faggot.

>>386558513
I guess, tr4sh just really pisses me off because they butchered classic mode and didn't have any sort of adventure mode. I wouldn't have even cared if it was like melee instead of subspace so long as it was there.
and the combat feels weird, almost like your movement is stunted and there's a lag after every every strike that doesn't let you move

>>386555516
Most of your points are more or less true, but

>On the competitive side, the same five people win tournaments every time.

Thats actually a good thing, that means the skillcap is so high that you need years to reach it and no random willy nilly newcomer can learn the game in half a year.

I mean i know twitch kids need their epic "upsets" and random stuff to happen else its boring i guess.

But if you want that better play game like OW or hots where you reached the maximum skill cap in half a year of casual playing.

>>386560825
I don't really play single player smash (except for training mode, and to unlock characters) so I can't comment on that aspect of the games.

And, I mean, the lag is pretty realistic considering that if someone hits you in the face, you aren't going to be able to throw a punch immediately after getting hit.

>>386560960
It's like college basketball. That's why people like March Madness-- for the parity. It gets stale to watch when UNC, Duke, Kansas, etc. win every year.

Same with Smash Bros.

>>386560426
No sane competitor who actually tries to compete in a game would denie himself practice against a non-banned legit strategy

It would hurt yourself more than him if you meet a jig in a tournament and dont know wtf to do.

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>>386560628
Tekken 7 still has wavedashing, dumbass.
>when fighting games become more realistic
What? Fighting games will never, and should never, be anything close to realistic.

>>386561093
But for the actual player its better this way.

There are more than enough competitive games that have ruined their gameplay in favor of the spectator base.
I mean just watch one of those i guess.

>>386561272
I forgot to mention that I think Tekken is a garbage fighting game. So at least I'm consistent.

>>386561093
Play the fucking game instead of watching it, how about?

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>>386561390
So you're a casual with terrible taste? As expected of a sm4shfag.

>>386561015
No, I feel like I can't move out of the way until I do get hit.

>>386561272
Because, I forgot that we starting considering Namco a good game developer lolololol

>>386555516
It's fine though, because Melee isn't a fighting game.

>>386561604
Just practice more? I don't have problems with this.

>>386561396
I do both. Suck my asshole.

>tried replaying Melee with my brother for a few days, loved it when we were younger
>keep tilting when meaning to do smash attacks, can't spot-dodge or roll correctly, can never pull off what I want to do

what the fuck is going on here
we've put at least 300 hours into Melee and Wii U, and the latter felt so much more precise, I never had problems like that with it

>>386561559
I like Smash Bros, Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Injustice, Bloody Roar.

Tekken is subpar compared to all of those.

>>386561838
Melee has no input buffer which means you have to be more precise with your inputs

Later smashs have huge input buffers.
Large input buffers are generally bad if you want to go for precise stuff.

>>386560426
Well, he was playing pretty gimmicky at the start. Same with Mango's Puff. It was all about getting the rest and pretty much the entire playstyle revolved around setting that up. They evolved beyond that though and Hbox has proven time and time again that he deeply understand the character he's using and knows when to go for a combo extension or end it with a rest. It's not about setting up for the rest anymore, but rather genuine cautious play and off-stage gimps more than just landing simple rest set-ups.

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>>386561959
>NRShit
>Bloody Meme
>SFV and Sm4sh
>>better than Tekken
Are you fucking with me? No way someone can have taste this bad

>tech skill and muscle memory is more important than strategy or mind games
Nigga what?

>>386561838
you were shit when you were younger like everyone else

>>386561272
How does wavedashing work in Tekken? Does it allow you to move while in a neutral state, or is it just a movement/spacing technique?
I know wavedashing exists in different fighting games, like Mahvel 3, but I don't know think they're even close to as useful as in Melee. But, that has to due with Melee incorporating platforms.

>>386555516
Git gud.

>>386555516
>more gimmicky than smash 4
>you can up-b someone at 0% with rage and win the game

>>386562372
It's somewhat dependent on character but most of the time it's a forwards/backwards dash that you can attack out of, similar to melee but not exactly the same.

>>386562170
Tekken is a bad anime made into a fighting game.

>>386561737
It's not a matter of practice, I just didn't explain it very well so I'll use an example
melee:If someone hits me, I have several different options for dodging and countering.
tr4sh:my opponent spams one way of striking and I have to dodge and counter the same way every time or I lose.

>>386562212
No idea why anyone would think that when HungryBox is the second best player in the world despite having very little tech skill.
Also, there's Borp. He doesn't wavedash, l-cancel or even shorthop, yet he can still beat people who are far more technical.
He's also brother with Pannenkoek which is hilarious as they both dedicate their game time to pressing as few buttons as possible.

>>386562580
Don't get caught out of screen at the top of the stage. You act like that shit happens all the time lol.

>>386562793
why are you defending it? i've seen it happen a shorthop off the stage as well.

>>386562772
Watching Borp has always been fascinating, mostly seeing the mind games at work with spot dodges.

>>386555516
The fact you can lose off 1 read vs one trick Jiggs and Icies is the biggest reason Melee is a piece of shit.

>>386562691
Still one of the deepest and most fun series in the genre, buddy. Anyone who thinks Injustice is a good game doesn't deserve to talk about fighting games.

>>386562696
That doesn't make sense to me. The defensive options in Smash 4 are stronger than in Melee. There is no shieldstun(as far as I can tell) so shield pressure is gone, making OoS counters way, way stronger.
Rolling is also much stronger in Smash 4, since the attacking player rarely has time to cover it, unlike in Melee where you'd be able to L-cancel an approach on hit and read or even react to a roll for a punish. If anything, it's harder to get out of an opponent's pressure in Melee due to the fact that there is actual shieldstun and your shield is way weaker in general.

>>386563021
What's so bad about Injustice? Have you even invested enough time in it to be able to make that judgement?

>Only 5-7 viable characters (out of 26!)
At least 12 characters have all the tools to win tournaments
>So. Many. Clones.
That all play quite differently
>Muscle memory and tech skill is much MUCH more important than strategy or mind games-- that is, it is much more gimmicky than smash 4
At low level sure. And that's only because that's how most melee players choose to play. You can play mind games and stand completely still and only attack when an opening presents itself, but a melee players mind has been warped by top players not wanting to play "lame".
>On the competitive side, the same five people win tournaments every time.
That's because it's an honest game and the better play always wins
>Exploitable glitches
Exploitable glitches that are miraculously balanced. And things that are game breaking are banned. Like freezing opponents with iceclimbers. And that's really it
>Comparatively, there is much less diversity than Brawl or Sm4sh
Sure. Don't see why that's a big deal
>The fanbase is unbearably annoying
Yes. Doesn't make the game any worse though.

>>386562983
>vs one trick Jiggs and Icies
It's always funny hearing scrubs complain about these two characters. Can you name me one single top Puff player that isn't Hbox and a single top ICs player?
Also, can you even recall a major tournament where an ICs player won? They're not good characters. It's just that the people who play them know exactly what they're doing and if you keep losing to them, you're the bad one, it's not the characters being broken. Everyone knows this.

>>386562983
That's why there are so many Jiggs in the top 100. Don't forget all those IC's making top 8's. Honestly why can't everyone play a spacie or falcon, right?

>>386562945
because it's not an integral part of the game, and it's easy to avoid.

>>386563196
>gimmicky characters
>terrible balance
>deep as a puddle
>movement and physics make me want to kill myself

>>386555516
>Comparatively, there is much less diversity than Brawl or Sm4sh
>>>>Brawl
>>>>>>Diversity
u wot m8

>>386563394
basically every single character, viable or not, has some kind of "cheap bullshit" and i've just come to accept that if someone is complaining about a character they're shit at the game

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>>386557404
I fucking love PM and I wish people had the balls to play updated version and shit.

>>386562983
It's not that simple. Wobbling and desyncs may be the foundation of Ice Climbers, but even then it's not like they're the top character in the game.
If it was really game-breaking, then it would have been banned, just like how other fighting games ban hidden boss characters. There's enough ways to counter wobbling which prevent it from ever ruining competitive Melee.

>>386563463
ah yes, the very slow and telegraphed moves like peach/samus/mario up-b which aren't essentially frame 1.

Melee is FUN!

>>386563093
There is shieldstun in smash 4, making many aerials and downtilts great for shield pressure and followups.

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>he doesn't main Luigi

>>386563093
I wouldn't call myself a pro at smash, as I only know the basics of the complex mechanics in melee, but I do understand things at least on a surface level.
I'd say it's the difference between fighting a computer and another person, but whenever I do fight someone in another smash game, I've never had this problem.

>>386563546
I personally love it every single time someone gets upset about wobbling or jiggs. Something about it just warms my heart. For the record I play Luigi.

>>386563886
I mean, that sounds like a you problem then, anon. I don't really like Smash 4 that much. I only play it occasionally and not for too long, but I don't recognise what you're describing at all.

>>386563364
You seem to forget that Wobbles got 2nd place at EVO 2013. IC's while poorly represented are capable of winning tournaments.

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>>386563863
Pic related.
>Hitting 3 down-smashes on spacies in a row

>>386563863
>almost uncomboable due to slipperiness
>has instant nair combo breaker
>chaingrab on spacies that can end in up-b
>dair is fucking huge, fair is fast as fuck, both kill easily

i wouldn't play any other character if my hands were fast enough to use the fuckin' down-b.

>>386556259
>sm4sh is a worthy successor
nah, if it doesnt have l cancel its worthless

>>386563546
I think it depends on how they're complaining about the character. If they're saying that they are cheap or bullshit obviously they're just shitters.

>>386563364
Prince Abu
Tekk
s0ft
4%
None of them are hbox level, but they are good.

As for IC's. Chudat just won Battle of BC 2 over m2k like 2 months ago.

>>386564104
>IC's while poorly represented are capable of winning tournaments.
Capable, yes. It's a viable character. But, other than Wobbles getting 2nd 4 years ago, what do we have? Chu? Nintendude?

>>386564104
Problem is ICs essentially rely on luck to win a tournament. It is virtually impossible for an ICs to take a set from a competent peach player, so you're essentially relying on luck in bracket so that somebody else takes top peach mains out of your way

>>386564319
Chu has had some very strong placings this year.

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>>386563863
>tfw playing a good/decent Luigi as Marth
What the fuck is even happening? It's like I'm being raped by a retard.

>>386564319
Chu is up 3-0 to mang0 this year. And beat m2k at BoBC2 to win the whole tournament.

>>386564319
Chu getting 2nd a few months ago at a tournament with Mew2King, Hungrybox, Leffen, and Mango present.

>>386564291
BoBC2 shouldn't really mean shit. almost nobody from the top 15 was there. Aside from abu doing pretty fuckin well at evo this year, none of these people have ever made a name for themselves at all or really have any big recent wins to speak of.

>>386564394
Marth can out range Mario, doc and Luigi so easily.

>>386564394
learn to space luigi doesnt mean shit if he can't even touch the ground. luggy nair means nothing to marth up-air/fair

>>386564517
All those players have some really good wins. The problem is people only value wins off the top 6. Most of those puffs have beaten top 10 players. The problem is the god complex in melee is out of hand and if you don't beat those 6 people you're not good.

>>386564394
Just abuse your huge disjoints, especially fair and d-tilt. Switch up your timings and get a feel for when he's wavedashing in. Marth is far and away luigi's worst top-tier matchup in my opinion.

>>386564349
There's no such thing as luck. IC Peach, while a bad MU is not as bad as you think. People forget that Chudat has taken games off Armada. I also know a high-level player that has gotten wobbles on him. Everyone can get wobbled, even Peach players. There's no exception.

>>386564652
He took a single game off Armada. No ICs player has ever taken a set off Armada i.e. winning a tournament with ICs either relies on a) Armada not being there (which rules out supermajors) or b) somehow managing to avoid Armada all the way up through grand finals. In other words, a pretty good deal of luck.

>>386564394
Wavedashing makes Luigi non-actionable for a short duration. Abuse this.

>>386564638
who has 4% beaten in 2017? s0ft? has tekk even left europe this year?

>>386564020
It's probably my fault for spamming for glory so much and using my anger as fuel to keep going instead of ragequitting.

>>386564989
or yknow just don't let him be on the ground

>It's sf fag became assblasted again episode