ITT games that aged like milk

ASDASD

>>386452598
I agree
now Diablo 2 is basically just a lump of delicious, delicious cheese

Aging good or bad is a valuation of how an item compares to the releases and paradigm changes that have happened since.

In certain aspects Diablo II did age like milk. I'd argue in certain aspects it was bad even upon release.

That being said, other aspects are solid, as they haven't been improved upon since, or might have been gone worse.

For the sake of it, I'll bump your thread with some ideas on what a good Diablo 3 should improve upon:
- Easy modding. Not gonna happen because >blizzard, but think something like Warcraft 3, where new characters, abilities, maps could be created from scratch.
- Revamped attribute system (str, dex, etc). Not sure what the best solution for this would be. I liked Ragnarok Online's 6-attribute system, but it is probably outdated too.
- Have Diablo 1's negative attributes and shines make a combat. Items could have positive and negative attributes, same as shrines, and you'd have to make harder judgement calls whether you wanted it or not.
- Have Diablo 1's permanent debuffs. At least in hardcore mode. Some enemies and shrines would permanently hinder your character. Does it suck? Sure. Want to avoid it? Get good.
- Revamp the potion system. Literally have no idea how to make it better both balanced and not frustrating and engaging.

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>soured milk the game

>>386453257
a good diablo 4 should stop making vanilla monsters worthless fodder

individually sure, but a large pack of white monsters should still require skill to beat and come out unscathed

>>386453257
- Keep skills limited to their class. If everyone can teleport, the wiz becomes less relevant, etc. Or make it so that, for example, wiz has normal teleport and others have a cooldown on it or something. Just an example.
- Keep the weight of the Diablo 1/2 combat. What sucks about many of the new clones is that hitting an enemy doesn't interrupt their animations, they don't emit a particular sound when hit, you don't get your animations interrupted when hit, you don't groan when hit, etc. PoE does it right IIRC.
- Gold sucks, it's worthless. Find a solution.
- Make crafting a bit more entertaining, rather than just a gamble. I remember there being a blacksmith flash game, you could copy some of the mechanics.

Any of the Infinity Engine games, really. I wish I had played them when I was young so it'd be easier to get into them again. I've tried playing BG1 like 5 times now and I keep getting bored after 30 minutes.

>>386453482
Good idea. Didn't the Defense Rating decrease the more enemies were attacking you at the same time? If not, it should. Not sure what else could be done but I agree with you.

- This will probably not sit well with everybody, but how about adding bonuses to drop rates based on played skill? Not sure how it could be implemented, but think of there being some sort of rating system like there is in Devil May Cry games, and the drop rates getting better the better you get at the game.

>>386453172
No. It's completely rotten. Not only did D2 age like milk, the whole genre aged. Even D3 and PoE feel like antiquated pieces of shit with a new coat of paint.
>Shit movement.
>Shit combat.
>Shit bosses and enemies that exist only to explode.
>Game degrades into spamming 1 skill. Bonus: later games in the genre up-the-ante by making sure your build maintains leech equilibrium when spamming 1 skill.
>Endgame consists solely of high-speed runs to get loot in an endless carrot chase.

>>386454419
Kys d2 is still good i got a gear hpally and bliz sorc a few weekss into ladder this year. Gave my account to my brother and he is still playing it. It's a classic

>>386453482
But anon, nothing in ANY Diablo game requires skill to beat.
Standing in the correct areas and moving away from projectile trajectories is not really "skill"

I used to do uber runs when I was 8 years old, so there's no way you can tell me anything in Diablo 2 was skill based.

>>386453986
>Not sure what else could be done but I agree with you.
i think the series should be third person, so you can implement a proper melee system, so combat isn't just clicking on everything and occasional repositioning, so vanilla mobs can challenge you via skill instead of either being just weak shit that you facetank or overly powerful shit that takes too much time to go through

plus third person can probably make the environments look better

>>386452598
It's not the game, it's the genre. People just liked controlling 1 hero, and now we have mobas for that.
Diablo 3, poe, torchlight, titan quest, grim dawn, etc etc, all these games are still worse than diablo 2, but they're all shit because the genre aged like shit, once the meta is broken down it's all farming for broken as shit items to make unimaginative generic builds

get the fuck off my board you underaged faggot

>>386454550
>Standing in the correct areas and moving away from projectile trajectories is not really "skill"
it is skill, but it's not that challenging I agree
>I used to do uber runs when I was 8 years old
8 year olds can be surprisingly skilled at games

>>386454526
Everything I said is true and I put like a thousand hours in.
Shit was legit good 20 years ago, but now it's radiator milk.

>>386454550
>I didn't top the ladder in hardcore pvp and don't know what the fuck I'm talking about.
Cool story shitter, tell us more about your 48 death run against uber diablo on easymode.

>>386454419

opinion
opinion
opinion/ignorance
wrong
this is every arpg/gear game in a nushell. are you fucking retarded? how is this a knock?

>>386454683
>look at me im pretending to be retard
You took the tread last night of this game aging like wine and you made a bait thread from it.

>>386454550
Vanilla D3 pre-patch in act 2 inferno felt like skill. It was a constant dance of avoiding 2-3 shot mechanics, selecting when to attack, mitigation, etc.
Everyone hated it.

>>386454769
It's all true. Sorry about your dead shallow genre.

>>386454906

Nice rebuttal you fucking retard.

>>386454795
I wasn't here last night, but people can easily share this opinion because it's relatable

>>386454703
I exclusively played Hardcore after my dad showed me some optimized builds.
Also PVP was not a focus of development for Diablo 2 and was literally just teleport spam until someone got hit and died.

>>386454980
I don't have to argue with someone who dismisses everything as opinions because they aren't willing to make a strict counter-argument to my claims in the first place.

>>386452598
>>386454419

sshhhh sshhhh

>>386454993
>was literally just teleport spam until someone got hit and died.
I had a build specifically designed for killing scrubs like you, and I didn't even need to abuse teleport like a faggot to do so.

>>386454559
You could keep the perspective and change the combat mechanics to be more direct and skill-related.

Examples:
Simple game - Bastion
Deeper game - Ys: OoF
Both have isometric or similar camera, but the control over the character's actions is direct rather than a command. You don't have a % to block, you either actively block or don't, etc.

>>386455079
Saying something is shit isn't an argument, it's an opinion. Explaining why it's shit is an argument.

Not him but you're the one who looks like an idiot, just spewing random baseless slanders and pretending you're the higher man.

The real problem with ARPGs like diablo is there is very little co-operation required when playing with friends. You are basically just playing solo beside eachother.

The best ARPGs are games that actually do well when it comes to party composition and teamwork. Something akin to 2nd edition dungeons and dragons mentality.

Get a fighter to make sure no one gets past him to hit the wizard. Get the wizard to target high priority targets. Get a Cleric to heal and do the right buffs at the right time. Ranged characters can stun lock and tie up specific targets.

I can't think of a single game that has done this perfectly but some have tried. The newest gauntlet is pretty good, shame its very shallow with no real loot or progression.

Also movement needs to be fluid and smooth with an ability to sorta dodge depending on character.

As well, fucking get itemization right for once. Only diablo 1 did that right. The other games just throw so much shit at you it stops meaning anything. The loot treadmill can go fuck itself.

>>386455215
probably, but I think third person might be better
you can actually be flanked in that one too, god-like battlefield awareness isn't really a good thing

>>386455079

I dont have to make "strict counter arguments" because everything you've said is completely subjective. you are not objectively correct. you do not have a rational concrete argument. you have an argument that uses your fee-fees as a metric. the combat, mechanics, boss fights, progression, etc. is all up to the player to decide if they like it or not. you do not. therefore, opinion.

one thing you are wrong about is the one skill spamming. you are a fucking retaded if you are only using one skill.

>>386455248
The reasons why they're shit is long withstanding critiques of the game that can be inferred, but I'll spell it out while quoting the next guy.
>>386455426
>Point-and-click movement is imprecise and often results in random behaviors when the PC takes weird, unexpected pathfinding or gets hung up in a stupid way. It lacks precise control.
>The combat IS bad. But this is more of a effect of the other points I'm going to mention (shit enemies, bosses, movement, skills) -- rather this is the result of my other points being objectively true.
>Enemies exist only to be steamrolled. There is a tiny window in character development where you get meaningful interaction with enemies and actually get to see what they're capable of and that capability having consequences to you. The other 99% of the time you're getting on top of them as fast as possible to DPS them down. Same criticism applies to bosses.
>These games typically streamline into one offensive skill. I mean sure, a WW barb might occasionally use Berzerk or Hop, but 99% of the time he's whirling. Same with poison necs, summon necs, smite, zeal, hammers, ww-sin. The only D2X exception that comes to mind is bone necros tend to make use of many offensive skills, and so do a couple ineffective paladin PvP builds (like FoH/Smite). Overall it's pretty much one skill. If you're in PvE, it's one skill like 99% of the time unless you're playing retarded.
>No, I'm afraid not every ARPG consists of high-speed loot runs, and you are retarded if you genuinely think that. The last three I played (BB, Nier, and Nioh) didn't limit you to just this.

>>386456684
All of your arguments could just as easily apply to any MOBA, the most popular genre on the market right now.
>clicking to move, clicking to attack, shit enemies/bosses, streamlined skills and offensives
In fact enemies in mobas are even dumber, and abilities are even more streamlined.
All of these negative qualities seem to be what makes moba's popular, how can they possibly be detriments?

Also
>No, I'm afraid not every ARPG consists of high-speed loot runs, and you are retarded if you genuinely think that. The last three I played (BB, Nier, and Nioh) didn't limit you to just this.
Those are not the same genre, even if they can be grouped under the generic umbrella term "action role playing game" eg. video game with character customization and fighting.

>>386457016
>In fact enemies in mobas are even dumber, and abilities are even more streamlined.
i'm pretty sure that fallen are dumber than actual human beings

assfaggots are multiplayer strategy titles, diablo clones are PvE clicking simulators

>>386452598
ARPGs as a genre haven't really aged they just haven't really been great gameplay wise. They're playable but never satisfying. What made me love Diablo 2 was the sprites , music , atmosphere and community when it was alive.

Gameplay isn't painful but its not good. I wouldn't say its aged like milk or wine its not really a game that has "aged" in a conventional means. If you thought point and click rpgs had good combat then you're just as wrong as doing it now. There were plenty of genres with far better gameplay then and there are now.

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>the anti-arpg crowd of sapes are still mad at diablo 2 after 15 years

>>386454419
>Shit bosses that exist just to explode.
Wrong to a degree. Mephisto/Diablo/Baal have pretty full movesets. Yeah once you get good gear they're easy to kill over and over but that is the same in any gear based game.

Duriel is literally just frost aura on something with only 1 melee attack though.

>>386454559
So what youre saying is have them spend more time and MONEY to make the game instead of cut and paste? Yea not gonna happen

>>386452598
ITT games that were always shit but nostalgia blinded millennial faggots pretend otherwise

>>386457407
>cut and paste
What?

>>386457120
>i'm pretty sure that fallen are dumber than actual human beings
And I'm pretty sure dota creeps are dumber than both, considering they only know how to attack-move to one place, can't revive, have no abilities, and can't even coordinate with other units to any capacity.
>diablo clones are PvE clicking simulators
I exclusively played diablo 2 for the hardcore pvp, the fact it has both immediately negates your premise.
MOBA are also top-down single-unit-control.

>>386454419
That's why Median exists.

>>386457468
>A bunch of buzzwords
Nice argument. Diablo 2 is far from a shit game its a really solid game as a overall package it just cannot stand on one leg alone. So people focus in on one or two things and act like its shit for being mediocre in a few ways.

You only think its shit because you're judging it on one or two aspects when it does plenty of great shit. From its environments to its music to its sprites those things have no aged a day its sprite work is charming as ever.

Probably a stupid idea, but what do you think about this to keep the game from being so stale?
>along the normal campaign, there is a hall/tower of big bosses
>there is some kind of editor to make custom bosses, testing arenas and voting system.
>every month, the most voted boss gets added to the hall/tower for all players to enjoy
>they give no exp/items, it's just for the fun of having constant/new challenges

>>386457534
>And I'm pretty sure dota creeps are dumber than both, considering they only know how to attack-move to one place, can't revive, have no abilities, and can't even coordinate with other units to any capacity.
nobody plays dota for the fucking creeps, it's like complaining that the gold mines in AoE 2 have shit AI
>I exclusively played diablo 2 for the hardcore pvp, the fact it has both immediately negates your premise.

>dota has 100 player characters, 100 player items, and like 3 AI creeps
>diablo has 100's of AI creeps while the pvp mode is tacked on as a bonus
gee I wonder which game is about fucking what

>>386457818
Here's how you prevent the game from being stale:
>make a good, challenging campaign that can be replayed in a bunch of different ways instead of making the game about infinitely running endgame bosses so you get the loot to let you infinitely run endgame bosses, then when you're done with the game you go play something else instead of making grinding your fucking life

>>386457863
>nobody plays dota for the fucking creeps
Ok, but you spent 95% of the game farming them anyway, same as grinding loot in diablo 2, for the sole purpose of being better at pvp when it comes up.

>gee I wonder which game is about fucking what
The only thing you proved with your strawman is that diablo 2 has more content, while dota 2 is more lazy and simplified, which any child could tell you.

>>386458160
>Ok, but you spent 95% of the game farming them anyway, same as grinding loot in diablo 2, for the sole purpose of being better at pvp when it comes up.
way overestimated, but dota creeps are farmed while you are in danger at every second
diablo creeps can be farmed in private games over the course of days so you can go fight a dude who was logged off during that time

I wonder how you can function in life if you can't understand a game as basic as dota, christ

and you don't understand what a strawman is

diablo and dota are not the same games at all, literally the only similarities come from wc3 superfluously borrowing some mechanics from diablo

>>386458068
Yeah, that's why modern Doom players keep playing custom wads rather than the campaign.

Content gets stale, there's nothing you can do about it, continuous fresh new content prevents it.

>>386452598
>tfw d2 is finally dead now that poe exists to takes its place

How do modern arpgs like dark souls manage potions?

>>386459435
dark souls gives you like 5+ potion charges that you need to stop and chug, and they refill at every check point (or sometimes when you kill an enemy in DS3). It's nothing like diablo 2 or PoE or d3 where you just plow through enemies with what's basically a potion IV bag attached to your character.

>>386457016
1. You're strawmanning and goalpost moving similtaneously here.
Nobody is talking about MOBAs, my critiques are meant to stand as arguments against iso-loot shit, notably D2X. Literally nobody is talking about MOBAs.
2. My critique was of that genre of game, it's epidemic in D2X and it's clones. In fact, I prefaced my initial of critique of it relating to this genre, only when someone said "EVERY ARPG IS LIKE THIS" did I start reaching from outside the subgenre of iso-loot for examples to the contrary.

Are we done here?

>>386454769
>>Endgame consists solely of high-speed runs to get loot in an endless carrot chase.
>this is every arpg/gear game in a nutshell
It wouldn't be so bad if meph/baal weren't the only runs.

>>386459205
thers that mix between poe and d2 mod that came out
never played, sounded fun, good improvements

grim dawn was a aiit singleplayer experience

>>386457383
Mephisto and Baal were basic spank and tanks.
Duriel and Diablo had mechanics... But even then Duriel was actually bullshit.

diablo games if any could actually be improved by being open world, it's not like they've got any handcrafted content to begin with

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Bitch all you want, but it's the truth.

>>386452598
D1 was more fun solo. D2 was more fun co-op. I preferred D1 though, though I wish it was a little faster and you didn't have to repeatedly click so much. But, the enemy AI gets kind of boring after a while in both games.

Tried PvP in D2 and it was awful.
>grind to level up your character
>grind/bot until you get good gear
>everyone has enigma and basically one shots each other so you're trying to desync by teleporting all over and hopefully one shot the other person first