Behold, the trinity of upcoming western RPGs

>>386429683
As is fitting of the idiotic westacuck, that is not a trinity.

>>386429683
>shit game shit game shit game ???? ??????? know nothing about it likely shit shit game ?????

>>386429720
It is, 4 of them are not Western, they are made in Eastern European and Muslim shitholes and DOS2 is not a RPG.

>>386429850
New York City is an eastern city and not western in any way.

>>386429720
Only 3 games are potentially good.

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>>386429825
>mount and blade is bad
>divinity is bad
>obsidian makes bad games
>ugghh realistic medival RPG so unappealing
>pff who wants a D&D experience anyways
>witcher 3 sucked i swear
>crpgs are for grandpaaas
>ugghh cyberpunk more like kidpunk

as expected from a sad weeb with so much grease in his hair that it drips on his keyboard.

>>386429952
Good was not specified, only upcoming and western, you stupid westacuck.

>>386429683
>eight games
>trinity

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>>386429850
How is Divinity not an RPG?

You aren't that deluded faggot that keeps saying "ITS A HAKNSLUSHHH !!"1"
Stop applying P&P terminology to videogames virgin

>>386429989
RPG was also specified and only 3 of those are RPG you dumb loo

>>386430092
No video games are RPGs you dumb westacuck. Only imitations of the real thing.

>>386429952
Can anyone name these?

>>386429683
>people on /v/ are no so underage they don't even know what a trinity is

Fuck this gay earth.

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>>386429683
*blocks your path*

>>386429683
>Cyberpunk 2077
never ever

>>386430221
It's dead Jim.

>>386429850
> DOS2 is not a RPG.
Why not?

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>>386429683
>MnB
meme game
>D:OS 2
Shit writing
>PoE
Shit everything
>Deliverance
First time hearing about this, looks like poorly written dialogue game
>Pathfinder
PoE-tier dumpster fire
>Cyperpunk
Devs are hacks, will probably be even worse than Witcher 3
>Wasteland 3
Complete tossup, no one knows if it'll be good
>Copper Dreams
Doubtful

>not a single one of them is as good as grimoire

>Bannerlord
Not coming out any time soon, but man, does it look great

>Original Sin 2
Didn't finish the first one. Terrible cringe "humorous" writing

>Deadfire
Looks good

>Deliverance
Open World Trash

>Pathfinder: Kingmaker
Looks like shit

>Cyberpunk 2077
Open World Trash

>Wasteland 3
Didn't even finish the second one. Terrible combat system.

>Copper Dreams
Sounds cool, let's hope it's good

The only 3 games that show promise there are D:OS2, M&B and C2077

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>>386429956
Warband is good the new one will be bad
Yes
PoE was SHIT. FUCK YOU.
looks janky as fuck
single player mmo
WE KNOW NOTHING ON THIS. BEEN BAITED BY THIS GAME FOR YEARS NOW. BIG RED FLAG.
Wasteland sucked fuck you
Looks like it might be interesting, but no update in a YEAR. Looks dead in fact.

Fuck this thread

>>386430248
Please do not bring up the Grimoire meme in threads about potentially actual good games.

Bannerlord and deadfire are the rare kind of games you know are going to be good before release
The rest will probably be garbage

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>>386430032
>How is Divinity not an RPG?
How is it a RPG? The only skill that has any influence on how you can solve quests and encounters is Charisma, yet Charisma can be easily maxed out with random items bought from vendors in Cyseal and crafting in EE. So, technically, charisma has no influence on anything, as it is counter productive to invest skillpoints into it, since any character can max it out with zero investment anyway.

The only exceptions to this rule are Madora's and Beardaughter's personal quests, where having Forgiving and Independent character traits respectively will yield you alternative solutions. So, congratulations, you have a "RPG" with exactly 2 (two) instances of roleplaying. That's even more pathetic than BG2, where there are 3-4 instances total.

Call it whatever the fuck you want, but DOS is nowhere near actual RPGs like Fallouts 1,2,NV, Arcanum, Torment or Torment Bloodlines. I would rather call it a fucking strategy game with stats than a RPG, though, technically, it IS LITERALLY a h&s game per PnP definition and no, PnP definitions are perfectly applicable to computer RPGs, as all computer RPGs are attempts at simulating the PnP experience.

>>386429683
>8 games
>"trinity"

You need to fuck off.

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>>386430397
>potentially actual good games.
Most of those games are just sell-outs going down a corporate check-list of what sells. Literal pleb-tier garbage. Shame on anyone that actually thinks that shit is in any way representative of quality. Grimwah is a masterpiece regardless of what your SA goon den mother told you.

>>386430561
Imagine being this autistic. If it has stats then it's an rpg.

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>>386430862
>If it has stats then it's an rpg.
>Cowadoody is a RPG

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>>386430862
is pic related a rpg

>>386430561
Except RPG's are not defined by application of stats to quests or encounters, but to problemsolving IN GENERAL. Including combat. In fact I'm pretty sure that statistical majority of videogame RPG's actually always focused their RPG mechanics exclusively or near-exclusively to combat. That does not make them not-RPG's.

Also, your entire argument seems to be "it's not an RPG because this particular one stat seems to be poorly utilized by the ruleset". Which is just laughably stupid.

So really, your definition of "actual (translate: one I personally prefer for purely subjective reasons, but I really need to make my personal taste sound much objective and superior here) RPG" is fucking stupid.

And I say this as someone who does not like Divinity games, but love Fo1/2, Arcanum, Torment etc... You are just completely wrong and don't really have a fucking clue what you are talking about.

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Posting best RPG of all time because you roleplay as the doom marine.

Prove me wrong.

>>386431396
I'm leaving this thread now and you can't stop me, maybe if you posted something more interesting, but as it stands I'll be taking my (you)'s elsewhere. Good day sir.

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>>386431452
>getting this triggered by an obvious joke

There's nothing quite like cRPG autists.

Are the Wasteland games any good if I like Fallout and Arcanum?

>>386431532
I will admit that I did not give the new Wasteland much time, but from those roughly 5/6 hours I gave them, the answer would be a resolute NO. It has absolutely zero atmosphere or feeling of charm, all choices are illogical there-for-sake-of-having-choice-and-consequence, writing is mostly completely lacking tone, everything feels clumsy, machine-like, it plays like a feature checklist and not like an organic game.

I got past the first big quest area and just gave up.

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>>386429683
>trinity
>post 8
sasuga summer.

>>386430254
>open world trash

You either are a Bioware fan or cutting yourself on that edge. Or both.

>>386431291
>problemsolving IN GENERAL
Yep. Problemsolving in general. Any actual RPG provides the player with alternative ways to solve problems and the efficiency and availability of these solution methods is always stat dependent. This is how it works in PnP, this is how it works in actual RPGs like Wasteland 1, Darklands, Fallouts, Arcanum, Torment, Bloodlines, Gothics (to a more subtle, but still very noticeable extent) and some other newer games like Wasteland 2, PoE and NV. This is non-negotiable, this is what lies at the very core of every RPG. Now, as I've said, a good RPG allows you to solve problems in different ways, but those various solution methods must at the very least encompass the 3 archetypal solution methods from PnP: Slay, Speak, Sneak. Killing an enemy with 10 different weapons does not constitute 10 different solution methods, it just means you have 10 tools to work with within the frames of the Slay archetypal solution.

>That does not make them not-RPG's.
That's wrong. If a game features only one archetypal solution method (like combat) to most problems, it's not a RPG, it's a h&s game at best or a game of a different genre than RPG.

>statistical majority of videogame "RPG's"
Aren't actually RPGs, so your "argument" is moot.

>"it's not an RPG because this particular one stat seems to be poorly utilized by the ruleset".
DOS is not a RPG because the solution methods you have do not depend on how you've built your character except those 2 cases I've mentioned. Charisma does not affect anything, it can be increased by stacking bonuses from randomly generated items that can be bought from vendors in the very first town.

>your definition
If you've seen my argument before on this board, you know it's not my definition, I'm just applying the definitions from PnP to computer RPGs, which is exactly how things should besince all computer RPGs have their roots in PnP RPGs and have always been attempts at simulating the PnP roleplaying experience.

>>386431876
Neither. I just don't like open world trash.

>>386431761
That sucks, are there any other isometric RPGs that come close to Arcanum in terms of roleplaying potential?

>>386429683
why poe shit in this list?

>>386429683
>godlike
>godlike (DM mode)
>who cares
>bad combat
>nope
>never happening
>series is bad
>dont even know this lol

2/8 aint bad

>>386429683
just add elex all ready

calling eight games a trinity is really a genius way to get a thread rolling1

>>386431965
>Any actual RPG provides the player with alternative ways to solve problems and the efficiency and availability of these solution methods is always stat dependent.
You did not notice the suprisingly intricate and entirely stat-dependent combat system?

>but those various solution methods must at the very least encompass the 3 archetypal solution methods from PnP: Slay, Speak, Sneak.
And this is where you start pulling arbitrary BULLSHIT completely out of your ass, kid. No, there is no such condition. PROBLEMSOLVING. What specifically does the game master or designer consider a problem, and what is the type of possible solutions is completely up to them, and has little or no baring on the RPG nature of the game. Killing an enemy with ten possible types of weapons or tools does constitute 10 different solution methods: you just don't like this particular approach so, like the delusional cretin you are, you "just don't count it".

Well though luck: what you prefer is of no baring on this discussion. Stop abusing the term RPG to validate your taste's superiority. Combat-only RPG's have been around since the very dawn of tabletops, just get used to it and fuck off.

Seriously, it's NOT that hard to say "I did not like Divinity as much as Fallout 2". But no, in the IMMENSE fucking insecurity you shithead suffer with, you must start literally making up bullshit about how how it's totally not your taste, it's the TRANSCENDENT NATURE OF RPG'S!
You are pathetic. RPG label does not exist to validate your preference for more socially-focused RPG's. Neither are they a merrit of quality. They are simple mechanical and rule design, involving multi-solution problems, with options being restricted by statistic-described quality models, and some form of character progression. THAT. IS. ALL.

Rest of your post is lies, actually. Seriously, fix yourself or get help.

8 is not trinity
Bl and deliverance are not western
I don't even bother to put meme arrows in my post

>>386430561
DivOs gives you more ways around things than any other RPG.

>>386429683
shit shit shit shit shit good shit shit

okay /v/ is cyber punk gonna be good?

>>386432186
Well, if you are REALLY FUCKING PATIENT, you could give Inquisitor a chance?
It's a huge cRPG with more text than Planescape and surprisingly clever and deep dialogue, choice-and-consequences and roleplaying options that basically allow you to be a judge in witch-hunting trials. It's quite amazing and in depth.

It has just one, tiny little problem.
Everything that is not dialogues and solving various problems within the cities and people - everything that involves exploration and combat... IS FUCKING BORING!

Alternatively, Underrail is... old-school hard core. And if you haven't, you could give Fallout Ressurection and Project Nevada a try. Slavs do love themselves some Fallouts...

>>386431526
I can still see the ifunny watermark you massive faggot

>>386432639
see the what?

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>>386429683
Male your choice for cyberpunk lads.

Also what the fuck is copper dreams or pathfinders? Haven't heard of them?

>>386432358
>stat-dependent combat system?
I did, that's why I called it a h&s game. Do you even know what a h&s game is?

>arbitrary BULLSHIT
Confirmed for never having actually DMed for anyone in PnP and exactly zero knowledge of the genre.

> what is the type of possible solutions is completely up to them
Yep, the type of solution the player wants to attempt is always up to him, but those possible alternative solutions are always restricted based on how he has built his character. Even in the very first iteration of D&D an alignment system was present and was used to define the type of character a player created. A DM would restrict the player's available solution methods or rewards based on his alignment. This means that the character generation and advancement (i.e. alignment shifts ruled by the DM) choices the player makes influence his available alternative solution methods. Actual RPGs have this, non-RPGs don't. Now, if you carefully think about any and all possible solutions to pretty much any problem, ALL of them fall within either one or a combination of the three archetypal solutions: Slay, Speak, Sneak. You would have known this, ahd you actually known anything on PnP and the genre in general, but you don't.

>Killing an enemy with ten possible types of weapons or tools does constitute 10 different solution methods
Again, you are retarded, after such nonsense there's no point in discussing anything with you. There are solution methods and there are tools to perform those solutions. Both Intimidation and Diplomacy, for example, are a type of diplomatic solution, they're just governed by different skills and therefore are different tools within the same archetypal solution - Speak.

>Combat-only RPG's
have never existed. The term for "combat only "RPGs"" has always been h&s. This was defined before the time you were born.

The rest of your post is just verbal diarrhea, you obviously know nothing of the genre.

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>>386431396

>>386432436
>DivOs gives you more ways around things than any other RPG.
It doesn't, you are retarded. That's one point. The other point is that none of those ways except in 2 instances depend on how you've built your character, so they have nothing to do with roleplaying. Visual Novels usually give the player way more alternative ways to solve problems, yet they are not RPGs. You know why? Because character generation and advancement decisions do not influence the availability and efficiency of solution methods.

>>386429683
half these games are probably going to be full of strong wyman, black knights and other sjw crap therefor not worth playing

>>386433038
>I did, that's why I called it a h&s game.
No, actually. Hack and slash is specific category of games (often containing RPG systems) defined by real-time combat where player controls individual strikes of the single character he controls (hence the hack-and-slash name). Once again you prove that you know fuck-all about the genre labeling and terminology.

>Confirmed for never having actually DMed for anyone in PnP and exactly zero knowledge of the genre.
Is this a joke? You are the one declaring that there is only ONE kind of pen-and-paper campaign and ignoring that whenever your one will involve possible social or sneak options is up to the master, and not the system. Seriously, you are saying "all pen-and-paper RPG campaigns HAVE TO LOOK THE SAME, HURRRR!" and then you have the audacity to fucking claim that I don't know what I'm talking about?
Really?
How fucking far will this delusion go?

>Yep, the type of solution the player wants to attempt is always up to him (...)
That entire paragraph just completely proves my point, actually. The fuck is wrong with you, kid?

>non-RPGs don't.
The fact that you have to use the "true" and "non" qualifiers PROVE THAT EVEN YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE ACTUALLY FULL OF SHIT. That you have to invent and esoteric "true" and "false" clarification shows that even you can't actually argue it's not an RPG. It's just a pathetic way to say "my preferred style of RPG is better than yours".

>ALL of them fall within either one or a combination of the three archetypal solutions: Slay, Speak, Sneak.
Are you serious with this shit? No. There are THOUSANDS official rulesets and hundreds of thousands of homebrew ones. Not all of them have these options. Fuck me: Gothic, Dungeon Master, Might-and-Magic, just to name some examples from the classic videogame library.

>are different tools within the same archetypal solution - Speak.
Where the FUCK did you get these fucking archetypes? Your fucking ass, that is where.

>>386433014
Solo, Cop, Road Warrior, for my first play throughs if I like it enough then I'll try getting fancy.

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>>386433038
>>386433157
>>386431965
>>386430561

P&P nerds are literally the fucking worst

Divinity Original Sin is incredible, even RPG Codex agrees.

>>386433157
>Visual Novels usually give the player way more alternative ways to solve problems
Not him, but this isn't really true. The vast majority of Visual Novels are fairly linear and when they do give you a choice it's usually about branching the plot rather than providing an alternative solution to a given problem.

>>386433778
>Dark Souls
>RPG

>>386433014
Fixer for life baby.

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>>386430561
I don't get it, are you trying to say Charisma is the only stat that matter because it's the only one that has a stat check in quest dialogues?
What about everything else in those quests? What about the actual questing part of the quest? You know, killing, sneaking, talking. Dialogues and outcome aren't the be all and end all of RPG quests.

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>>386433828
Shut up P&P nerd nobody except you would use the term h&s in videogames to describe divinity, you are fucking retarded.

>>386433828
Can't stack Charisma in Dark Souls.

>>386434013
It's an action game, not an RPG.

>>386434060
It's an action game with light RPG elements desu.

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>>386433778
>rance
you shitting me?

As much as I love reading about them, I'm not a fan of playing RPGs with more exposition and lore dumps than actual gameplay.
What are some other light-hearted and not too story heavy RPGs like DivOS?

>>386433689
>defined by real-time combat
Again, you know nothing of the genre, stop talking out of your ass, you don't get to define anything. The term was defined before you were obviously born, it specifically means campaigns within the framework of the RP system that focus exclusively on combat, foregoing any other solution methods. Since the PnP campaigns are "turn based" by definition, any mention of real time combat is pure retardation and an indicator of utter ignorance.

>As false to the game form as the pre-scripted "story," is play that has little more in it than seek and destroy missions, vacuous effort where the participants fight and kill some monster so as to gain more power and thus be able to look for yet more potent opponents in a spiral that leads nowhere save eventual boredom. So pure hack and slash play is anathema to me too.
>seek and destroy missions, vacuous effort where the participants fight and kill some monster so as to gain more power and thus be able to look for yet more potent opponents

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131343/the_dungeon_master_an_interview_.php

This is what h&s is as defined by people who actually made some of the first PnP RPG systems. The fact that you do not know this and insist on your own retarded definitions pulled out of your means you have exactly zero credibility, your posts are worth less than dogshit.

>You are the one declaring that there is only ONE kind of pen-and-paper campaign
Strawman. Roleplaying and h&s campaigns have been separated in PnP for a very long time, before you were even born.

>all pen-and-paper RPG campaigns HAVE TO LOOK THE SAME, HURRRR!"
All proper PnP RPG campaigns have to offer the proper scope of alternative solutions to create actual roleplaying depth, toherwise they degenerate into h&s campaigns, yes.

>>386433689
>That entire paragraph just completely proves my point
It doesn't. The solution the player wants to attempt is always up to him, but the possible solutions and their efficiency are always restricted by the decisions the player has made during character generation and advancement. So far, you have made no point, your only "point" was spouting retardation about how general existence of alternative solutions somehow makes a game a RPG. Protip: it doesn't, otherwise all VNs would be the best RPGs ever made. Again, you know jack shit about the genre.

>esoteric "true" and "false" clarification
I do, because dumbfucks like you like to spout nonsense about how everything and their dog is a "RPG", so one has to separate actual RPGs as defined by people who actually made the genre from "RPGs" as defined by dumbfucks who know nothing of the genre.

>There are THOUSANDS official rulesets and hundreds of thousands of homebrew ones.
You don't even understand the point of the argument, you are literally a double digit IQ shitstain. Rules have nothing to do with archetypal solutions. Different skills are just tools within the framework of archetypal solutions.

>Not all of them have these options
Yes, they do. You have never played these games, shitstain. All of these games have skills that are tools within the framework of the 3 archetypal solutions.

>Where the FUCK did you get these fucking archetypes?
By actually playing PnP, you would have known that, but you don't, so don't bother replying to me anymore, because I will not consider your posts more than verbal diarrhea from now on.

>>386434517
just neck yourself nerd, stop putting P&P terminology into video games

>>386433778
>even RPG Codex agrees
RPG Codex has shit taste, as can be seen from that picture. The Witcher 3 alone completely discredits everything in there.

>>386434590
They have better taste than /v/ combined

objectively

>>386434517
>The term was defined before you were obviously born, it specifically means campaigns within the framework of the RP system
Not him, but do you realize that you just clearly proved yourself wrong?

"It's not an RPG, it's a hack-and-slash!"
"What is a hack-and-slash?"
"It's a type of RPG that focuses only on combat..."

Seriously, I have no idea how you expect anyone to take you seriously...

>>386433925
>Charisma is the only stat that matter
No, what I'm saying is that cahrisma doesn't matter at all, since there is no reason to ever invest in Charisma during character generation and advancement. In-game random and unique items give you a stacking charisma bonus and this charisma bonus is enough to pass every single charisma persuasion test in the game. Effectively, the only thing that matters in the game is your combat efficiency and combat is the only solution archetype where character generation and advancement decisions (i.e. ability and skill point distribution) come into play. Alternative quest solutions do exist, but their availability is not tied to anything other than your combat efficiency (as every character can max charisma with zero skillpoint investment) and thus they have nothing to do with roleplaying. In the end, the only thing your character build influences is combat efficiency, there are no other consequences apart from 2 instances mentioned earlier, this is a pure h&s game.

>>386433785
>The vast majority of Visual Novels are fairly linear
Try harder next time.

>>386434649
>"It's a type of RPG that focuses only on combat..."
It's a campaign that uses SOME of the rules present in the framework of a PnP RPG system. It does not use the full scope of rules and possibilities that a proper RPG campaign has to offer and there fore it was specifically separated into its own thing a VERY long time ago.

>>386434517
>Hack and slash, or hack and slay (H&S or HnS), refers to a type of gameplay that emphasizes combat. The term "hack and slash" was originally used to describe a play style in tabletop role-playing games, carrying over from there to MUDs, MMORPGs, and role-playing video games. In arcade/console-style action video games, the term has a different usage, specifically implying a focus on real-time combat with hand-to-hand weapons as opposed to guns or fists. The term is often written in hyphenated form and with the conjunction contracted, e.g. hack-and-slash, hack 'n' slay.

As for that interview:
>So pure hack and slash play is anathema to me too.
He CLEARLY STATES there that it's a matter of his personal preference. In purely pnp games. This is desperate.

>Roleplaying and h&s campaigns have been separated in PnP
See above. Hack and slashes are a type of RPG campaigns, even according to your definition, which actually ONLY applies to pen and paper, while videogames have their own separate terminology.

>All proper PnP RPG campaigns have to offer the proper scope of alternative
You are not actually in any way qualified. The term "proper" LITERALLY MEANS "WHAT I LIKE" in this context. It has nothing to do with the actual nature of the systems. The systems, in fact, can be completely stripped of ANY semiotic level and purely described as patterns and mathetmatical rules. There is no difference between "solving problem by rolling dice using statistical value X or Y to an actual RPG from a system-point of view.
It does not matter if X is "speechcraft" and Y is "archery", or if X is "long blade" while Y is "spear". Mechanically this actually changes NOTHING about the system itself, it's literally flavor text
And RPGs are designed to offer MAXIMUM semiotic flexibility. That is kinda the point.

Again and again, we come to the same problem.
"Proper" RPG's.
"True" RPG's.
"Real" RPG's.
These categories mean nothing but your self-validation.

>>386434875
>implying I'm not right
Visual novels branch but in-between those branches they're usually linear. Your average RPG provides you with countless minor choices on the way, e.g. in form of multiple choice dialogue that comes up all the time. Also, when it comes to alternate solutions Visual Novels rarely have something to offer, most importantly because they usually don't involve stats/skills that would require them. Doing things this or that way becomes a pure flavour choice if it does not depend on the character build and thus VNs usually don't have them.

>>386429683

*Implies Cyberpunk 2077 will ever be released*

>>386435036
>Visual novels branch but in-between those branches they're usually linear.
>VNs are not linear, but they are linear.
LMAO.

>Your average RPG provides you with countless minor choices on the way
Yeah, minor choices of very little consequence. VNs have usually multiple alternative gameplay paths and very few RPGs actually do this.

>most importantly because they usually don't involve stats/skills
That's what I've said. The alternative solutions are there, but there is no dependence on character generation or advancement decisions and, therefore, no roleplaying. What VNs have are general C&C, but general C&C is not roleplaying.

>Doing things this or that way becomes a pure flavour choice
This is wrong. Doing things one way or another in a VN might offer alternative progression paths (i.e. you get a different waifu). Again: the C&C is there, but the roleplaying is not. That's why C&C and roleplaying must be clearly separated.

>>386434794
I see, but the fact that you can max Charisma with items doesn't mean that you will. Yes, it's the optimal solution but not everyone will figure it out and at that point you already created your character with whatever charisma amount you wanted. The game is just giving you options, you have to see things from the perspective of someone who doesn't always aim for the absolute optimal playthrough, else it's like watching a speedrun and claiming it's the only way to play the game and there's only one route.

I get it but I disagree.

>>386434559
>It doesn't. The solution the player wants to attempt is always up to him, but the possible solutions and their efficiency are always restricted by the decisions the player has made during character generation and advancement.
You are literally repeating (for the second time) what I said couple of posts above. Specifically here:
>>386432358
>So far, you have made no point, your only "point" was spouting retardation about how general existence of alternative solutions somehow makes a game a RPG.
Look, if you can't even read, I'm cutting the conversation right here. I'm not going to deal with fucktard that considers himself right on the basis OF BEING LITERALLY ILLITERATE.

Your argument so far is that systems don't matter, that RPG's stop being RPG's if they don't fit arbitrarily decided three categories because YOU says so and that is right because Gygas has similar personal preferences to you.

>Rules have nothing to do with archetypal solutions.
Actually: THAT IS MY POINT YOU RETARD. RPG is defined as system - that is, through RULES.
And those, indeed, have FUCK ALL to do with any arbitrary semiotic archetypes you invented and introduced.

RPG's are not defined by adherence to some archetypes. They are defined by how they work as rulesets. That is why you are wrong and your definition of RPG is wrong. You define them through how they use symbolic archetypes, not how they work as rule systems.

And that is really all there is to it. That is where the discussion ends.

>Yes, they do. You have never played these games, shitstain.
Are you saying that literally every pen and paper RPG, including all kinds of homebrews and unofficial systems, have these? What about the systems used for hack-and-slash campaigns?
You know what: don't bother answering. We already solved this problem with the "rules vs. archetype" argument. Just fucking kill yourself.

>>386429683

(((upcoming)))

>>386434974
>It's a campaign that uses SOME of the rules present in the framework of a PnP RPG system.
How does using an RPG rulesets make it not an RPG?
Because YOU like RPG's to be about something else, too. That is literally the entire argument. And no. It has not. Hack and slashes are considered a subcategory of RPG's both in games and in tabletops. Because they use actual RPG rulesets. You basically claim that RPG's are defined by THEMES they use, not by how they work as mechanical frameworks.

>>386435336
/thread

>>386429683
BEHOLD THE INCLINE

>>386430561
This is what Dungeons and Dragons does to people's brains. Sad.

>>386435007
>He CLEARLY STATES there that it's a matter of his personal preference
It's not a matter of preference, it's a matter of defining h&s. He has clearly stated what h&s is. His opinion > any shit falling from your mouth.

> ONLY applies to pen and paper
Anything that applies to PnP applies to videogame RPGs as well, because all videogame RPGs are attempts at simulating the PnP experience. The difference between PnP and videogame RPGs lies in the scope of roleplaying (i.e. you get almost infinite alternative solutions in PnP, because, even though they are resstricted by the ruleset and the DM, your own creativity and actions are not; but a very limited set of pre-generated solutions in vidya), the actual definition and everything related to it are the same.

>Hack and slashes are a type of RPG campaigns
They are campaigns using some of the rules of the PnP RPG systems, they are not RPGs, that's the reason why they were separated from RPGs in the very first place, dumbfuck. If there was no need to separate them, people would just call them RPGs, but they don't and for good reason.

>Mechanically this actually changes NOTHING about the system itself
Completely wrong, you have no clue what you're talking about. All different archetypal solutions feature different kinds of gameplay in vidya RPGs: combat uses the combat system, stealth uses the stealth system and speech uses the dialogue system where rolls are made. If you roll for stealth in dialogue, that's not a solution method related to Sneak, that's a solution method related to Speak.

This also holds for PnP: any good DM will ask you to at least try to come up with a few lines of dialogue when making diplomacy checks and will even modify your roll, if you're particularly good or bad. Combat, obviously, uses it's own system and only Sneak solutions rely on pure rolls with no additional systems involved.

In short: everything you say is wrong, stop replying to me, you are retarded.

>>386429683
>trinity
Westacucks still retarded I see.
Also the first 5 games might as well be the same game.

>>386435713
>It's not a matter of preference, it's a matter of defining h&s.
The term "hack and slash" has its roots in "pen and paper" RPGs such as Dungeons & Dragons, denoting campaigns of violence with no other plot elements or significant goal. The term itself dates at least as far back as 1980, as shown in a Dragon magazine article by Jean Wells and Kim Mohan which includes the following statement: "There is great potential for more than hacking and slashing in D&D or AD&D; there is the possibility of intrigue, mystery and romance involving both sexes, to the benefit of all characters in a campaign."
Source:
Wells, Jean; Mohan, Kim (July 1980). "Women want equality - and why not?". Dragon #39. TSR Hobbies, Inc. V (1): 16.

>Anything that applies to PnP applies to videogame RPGs as well,
No. That is just false. The terminology separated. If you say "hack and slash" to a video game developer, journalist, critic, publisher etc... it will mean something different to them than to a pure pen-and-paper enthusiast.

>because all videogame RPGs are attempts at simulating the PnP experience.
No, they don't. The actually take inspiration in mechanical tools that PnP used to use, but their intention is not to simulate the same experience. You can't do that either. They merely borrow the systems, sometimes to achieve similar type of experience (like a hero power fantasy tale). Which is not the same as actually trying to simulate PnP experience specifically.

>the actual definition and everything related to it are the same.
Factually wrong. The terms are used differently. On a scope that is universal to the whole medium, so you can't complain it's minority of people using it wrong. In fact, the term hack-and-slash is used in the DIFFERENT, VIDEOGAME meaning by more people than it is used among the pnp community.

>combat uses the combat system, stealth uses the stealth system
There is no condition that every RPG has to use all three of those systems. End of discussion.

>>386435295
>You are literally repeating (for the second time) what I said couple of posts above
I'm not, you've said no such thing. You have not mentioned the connection between character generation and advancement decisions and alternative solutions, which is of prime importance. You've been only spouting nonsense this whole time about how general presence of alternative solutions makes a game a RPG, which is false.

>that RPG's stop being RPG's if they don't fit arbitrarily decided three categories
Not "three" categories, dumbfuck, but the whole scope of solutions. Those three 3 archetypal "categories" encompass any and all possible solutions, that's why they're called archetypal in the first place, you shit-munching imbecile. You cannot come up with a solution that is not a combination of these 3. If a game does not have the full scope or roleplaying, it's not a RPG, it's a h&s game or a game of some other genre. How funny that you would call me illiterate when you lack even the most basic reading comprehension. "Arguing" with you is a waste of time, you are clinically fucking retarded, go neck yourself.

>>386429956
>>386430369

obvious bait

>>386436041
Why did you post a definition of h&s that fits entirely with what Gygax said, mongoloid?

Regarding everything else, you are wrong on all counts: the first RPGs ever made were exactly that: attempts at simulating the PnP experience to the extent the technical limitations would allow. This is a non-negotiable fact. Some were successful, some were just h&s games, it matters not as they all followed the same goal. Because of this, the terminology and definitions used in PnP apply to vidya as well, because RPGs are still following the same goal, which is proven by literally every single "classic" RPG such as Arcanum, Fallouts, Torment and so on.

>There is no condition that every RPG has to use all three of those systems.
>there is no condition that a RPG should have the full scope of roleplaying possibilities provided to the player
You are retarded.

>>386436090
>I'm not, you've said no such thing. You have not mentioned the connection between character generation and advancement decision
Except for the part that says that solutions are restricted by qualities of the character.

>involving multi-solution problems, with options being restricted by statistic-described quality models, and some form of character progression.
>WITH OPTIONS BEING RESTRICTED BY STATISTIC-DESCRIBED QUALITY MODELS
In other words: your problem-solving options are limited by the qualities of your character.

Learn to read.

>Not "three" categories, dumbfuck, but the whole scope of solutions.
You are the one who argued, this whole time, that if the THREE ARCHETYPES are not ALL PRESENT AT THE SAME TIME, it's not an RPG. Should I quote to you back the posts where you claimed this.

My point is that there is no actual restriction on the type of solutions that the particular game presents. There is no condition that there MUST BE these three archetypes. In fact:
Are you seriously arguing that there is no such thing as a non-combat RPG?
That there is no such thing as an RPG that does not determine outcome of social interactions through dice-rolls?
That EVERY RPG SYSTEM includes a stealth mechanic?

Because if that is what you are claiming, I think we could prove all three of those objectively false.
Like Golden Sky Stories or Burning Wheel, Ryuutama, Threadbare: all of those offer minimum or no combat solutions of problems.

>You cannot come up with a solution that is not a combination of these 3.
What the fuck? Are you sane? I just argued that RPG's can completely avoid these three, or use of all three at the same time.
You are the one who insists that those are the ONLY ONES THAT COUNT.

>If a game does not have the full scope or roleplaying, it's not a RPG,
I'd ask you to define "full scope" here but god-dammit... that would be pointless.

>>386433778
>pic
More like 'games with classes and/or skills' than RPGs

>>386435246
>VNs are not linear, but they are linear.
>LMAO.
You're only proving that you didn't understand what I said.

If I hand you a game that goes for 50 hours and presents you a single choice that branches the plot at one point, you're still dealing with a mostly linear game. In most RPGs you make minor choices ALL the time. Literally every time you talk to an NPC you're confronted with multiple dialogue options. In most VNs you merely read a static flow of text. Choices are few - in particular if we're talking about choices that actually affect the game's logic, e.g. those that actually branch the plot.

>That's what I've said. The alternative solutions are there
I've yet to play a VN where there are actual "alternative solutions" to a given problem in the same sense as I would see them in an RPG. In most cases there aren't even problems in need of "solving".

>there is no dependence on character generation or advancement decisions and, therefore, no roleplaying.
>What VNs have are general C&C, but general C&C is not roleplaying.
I essentially agree with this but I would argue that roleplaying does not depend so much on the character generation and advancement. Role playing means most of all that the player gets the opportunity to define his character's personality through interaction with the virtual world. That is a component most VNs are missing because in most VNs the protagonist is pre-defined. He has a mind of his own, comments on the world around him, and choices are always made within the context of his personality. Some VNs may give the player the opportunity to affect the protagonist's personality, but even those are not as granular in scope as the choices in an RPG, but merely result in a differently pre-defined protagonist with his own head.

Choice in a VN is a device to put the plot on different rails. Choice in an RPG serves the purpose of giving the player the opportunity to define his own character.

I haven't been following this sperg's fine discussion about semantics, as /v/ usually gets wrapped up in. But since DOS2 lets you pick various tags during character creation that make up your origin story and affects NPC dialogue and quest opportunities, doesn't that count?

>>386435246
>Yeah, minor choices of very little consequence. VNs have usually multiple alternative gameplay paths and very few RPGs actually do this.
And yet VNs have little to no role playing because even though you end up on a different story-branch, your character still thinks, says and does what he wants most of the time. He's not fully in your control. This is why VNs are not RPGs.

>>386436420
>Why did you post a definition of h&s that fits entirely with what Gygax said, mongoloid?
Because it very clearly states that hack-and-slash is a type of RPG. In fact it makes a whole point that "most RPG's are hack-and-slash, but there is a lot more potential for them than just that".

LITERALLY EXPLICTLY TALKING ABOUT HOW RPG'S ARE PRIMARILY HACK-AND-SLASHES.
And could be something more.
Thus proving that hack-and-slashes have always been considered RPG's, in fact they used to be the major image or RPG's.

You realize that you were the one claiming that they aren't RPG's, right? Not even Gygas, as I pointed out, actually agreed on that with you, so this definition being in line with that meaningless and absolutely wortheless Gygasa interview is OK.

You are the only one who actually argues against all three of us. Also against wiki and just every other source I can find.

You are the only one who argues that hack-and-slash are not RPG's. You are simply wrong on that subject, and what I posted is one of the many proofs that you are wrong on use of those terms.

>the first RPGs ever made were exactly that:
First RPG's, maybe. Things change. Actually, all first RPG's were purely hack-and-slashes. Introduction of more complex social interactions was a pretty late part of development of computer RPG's. Many, like a lot of JRPG's never even got there, as they styled themselves on the oldest, combat-only oriented games.

>Because of this, the terminology and definitions used in PnP apply to vidya as well,
No. Validity of terminology is defined by how it's used by majority of relevant people. People in game industry use the term hack-and-slash differently. Therefor the PnP terminology no longer applies. It's really that simple:

THE USE DEFINES THE MEANING, AND THE USE IS DIFFERENT BETWEEN THE TWO MEDIA.
That is all.

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>>386433014
Corporates

>>386436090
Not the guy that you're arguing with, but I would say sneak could easily be rolled up into slay since the purpose of it assumes combat is imminent and so it uses stats to determine it's outcome then it's a buff that all classes have access to but only certain classes have a specific skill with which to dump points into, furthermore the skills that can be tested in a video game aren't just stats and numbers, but the players' actual "skillset".

>>386436581
I for one am enjoying the argument between the two.

>>386437000
>Not the guy that you're arguing with, but I would say sneak could easily be rolled up into slay since the purpose of it assumes combat is imminent
Not really, you can sneak to avoid combat.

The real point is that the fight/sneak/talk trinity is not actually obligatory at all. It's actually completely arbitrary: yeah. Most RPG's rely on these three at the core of the system because they just happen to be the tree most intuitive general possibilities to solve problems. But the fact that they are common does not mean that they are CONDITIONS of an RPG.

If a game tests players skill set, and not the skill-set of his avatar, though: THEN IT'S NOT USING AN RPG MECHANIC. RPG mechanic is one that checks the characters qualities (his attributes, his skills etc...) to determine the outcome of an action. Of course you can mix it with non-RPG elements (like say, Mount and Blade which combines reflex and input skills of the player, with statistical qualities of the character at the same time). But if you rely on testing player skills more than on the statistics of his avatar, you are arguably becoming less and less of an RPG.
That is why despite it's progression and stat-element, CoD isn't really an RPG: 90% of the problems and their solutions are still determined by player skill, not by the statistics of his characters. The RPG elements play only a minor role, and for that reason it makes more sense to call it an FPS and not an RPG.

>>386436581
>doesn't that count?
See:
>>386437298
Dark Souls has a very limited scope of actual problem-solving options, 90% of them are related to combat. Which is why we call it an Action RPG, a generic (and somewhat confusing) label that means either that the problem-solving is restricted to combat-related scenarios, or that the game requires high degree of player input and his own skill to solve problems, rather than relying more heavily on the statistics and avatar-qualities.

But yeah, denying that Dark Souls is an RPG is stupid. It is one. It's a combat oriented, action-heavy RPG, but the emphasis on character statistics is large enough to warrant calling it an RPG. Simply because character-statistic-related decisions play a non-trivial role. In layman terms: Builds matter in DS. That alone makes it enough to consider it broadly an RPG.

>>386429683
8 Games aren't a trinity. Also, those games all look generic as fuck. The RPG world is going through a bit of a dry spell.

>>386433014
netrunner/fixer for my first playthrough, i'm not sure on which i'll pick yet

>>386437610
>8 Games aren't a trinity
Are you completely new here?
I mean yeah, the "lets use the term "trinity" incorrectly" meme is stupid, but it has been around for at least four or five years, symptomatic of just about every major chart thread.

>Also, those games all look generic as fuck.
Uh... you don't know anything about any of those games, do you? Outside of Cyberpunk which we don't know what is going to be like at all, they are about as varied as RPG genre can ever be.

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>>386437610
Yes they are mostly fantasy/medieval settings, but they are varied alot in terms of gameplay

Also most jRPGs look like generic anime to me

anime is a shitty artstyle and has no place in vdeogames

I am excited for all of these ! Especially divOS 2 and Copper Dreams.

I also like the very subtle trolling.
"Trinity" with 6 games the other day, and 8 today! Haha, OP is a proper rude chap.

>>386429683
Those are all on my list of Gets.

>>386429683
A Trinity is comprised of three you fucking idiot.

>>386429683
>MUH same garbage of 30 years ago with nice graphics
>Complains about jrpg always the same
Why Mount and Blade? It's developed in Turkey you shitty shitposter.

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>>386438826
thanks friendo, hope u has a good day :D

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>>386438225
>anime is a shitty artstyle and has no place in vdeogames
Nice objective opinion. What's next? Triggered by anime picture while staying on 4chan?

>>386430713
>all these games are shit because they're not this one particular game that might have actually been good, in 1996
Imagine being such a massive faggot

>I really
hate when

>people post
and space

>like this
as if

>you should break
every part

>of a sentence
and answer

>them
separately

>>386441239

Shut up, angry weeb faggot

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>>386430108

>>386430248

Please do not post a cool picture from a good band when expressing your shitty opinions in memespeak.

Only PoE 2 will be godlike from this list, the rest is pure trash
fuck rpg codex!

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Guys?

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>>386430713
Not one of these has wide market appeal except for 2077

>>386444092
fuck off

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>>386444137
maybe they won't fuck up this time. i'm just trying to stay positive

>>386434517
lmao you fucking pnp nerds are the same faggots who defend Morrowind combat, this is a video game board not your moms basement where you and your whale friends get together and protect your virginity, fuck off lmao

>>386444032
>fuck rpg codex

what is this meme?

>>386444208
you already saw the gameplay, it's shit

>>386429683
Damn I came here ready to diss the fuck out of op's shit taste, but every single one of these games looks damn good. I thought it was going to be another one of those threads overrating some Biowhore or Borethesda shit.

I'm currently playing Warband & Wasteland 2.

>>386444385
But Piranha Bytes's gameplay have always been shit, Gothic 1&2 aren't any better.

>>386430369
Wasteland and PoE didnt suck lmao

>>386444125
Why do you keep posting this same stupid slut over and over in every threat you're in? Why are you so obsessed with her?

>>386429683
>Copper Dreams
Oh wow, did someone finally make a video game of Necromunda?

>>386444125
Please, don't tell me he has mutilated his dick. Thank you.

>>386444534
garanteedreplies

and u fell for it :^D

>>386434794
what if I forego all those unique items and decide to dump points into charisma, to roleplay as a bard.

WHAT THEN NERD, I JUST BROKE ALL GENRE NOMENCLATURE

>>386430248
This man and I share these feelings. WL3 is the only that fills me to the rim with brim.

>>386444782
ty kurwo jebana

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>>386429683
The only good game in that chart is Cyperpunk because CDPR actually makes fun games. The rest are boring muh medieval tolkien fantasy copypaste. And brown and bloom shootems.

>>386445689
t. superficial and dumb opinion

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>>386443264
>this ass-blasted
Summer it's almost over, you underage edgelord.

>>386447941
shut up weeb go wash your greasy hair fatty

>>386444308
That's an autistic PoE fanboy who couldn't handle that one forum on the the internet dared to dislike his shit game. Even though the codex consensus slightly shifted to a more positive opinion after the game went through years of patching, anon's mind was permanently damaged and could never get over it.