Give me arguments.

I wouldn't call it a successor but rather just a different take on a series that just one big OK.

I think the worst part is its portrayal of hell.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that glory kill system - that really annoyed the fuck out of me, it's just the same, slow animations again and again (and they were completely unnecessary).

It's about as good as Doom II Tbh, which means it's way above average for a game released after HL2.

>>386345836
While it deserves some of that criticism, I'm still surprised it turns out as good as it did. I was expecting Doom: Call of Duty Edition.

>>386345836
It's only considered ""good"" by literal GenZ Xbots who have never played any other shooters than Halo/CoD/BF... etc. To them, just the idea of not having to reload your guns is now exciting and new.

In reality though, nuDoom is horribly dumbed down, and quite typical, generic console shooter of the era. Out of place upgrade systems and menu-surfing, tons of handholding, story pushed down your throat all the time, "Press a key to see cool animation!" -style ""gameplay""... endless lock-down rooms and tiny, spawning waves of enemies, because consoles can't keep up with big enemy packs and pre-placed enemies apparently... fucking awful MP, and no modding tools because the super restricted map-editor's supposed to be "good enough".

All in all, nuDuum only adapts the modern internet Doom-memes, and turned them into a goddamn Hard Reset clone. It totally misses the big appeal and meta-game of original Doom-games.

>>386347504
Hell no.

>>386347739
even modern CoD games tend to be faster paced than neo-Doom.

Is nobody going to try and defend this game? >>386347739
I agree, my expectations were similar, and while it wasn't that bad, I'm still not impressed.
Just compare what you can do in DOOM 2 for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OU1fH7f4Kg
>>386347504

>>386348047
>le doom ii is good maymay
Go to bed Romero

>>386345836
because Zenimax's guerrilla shills made sure to gut out all negative criticism on the net before the game came out, and kids born in the year 2000 have never played the originals.

Same shit happened with RE7; both of these games are marketed as "return to the roots", but it's clear that the devs and "fans" of these turds have never even tried the originals.

>>386348149
Doom 2 is great.
Just try to prove me wrong.

I'm actually enjoying it, and I played the original Doom when it was released. It is a nice change from the current fps games and a fun bit of a mix of nostalgia, tech and modern fps mechanics. People always take doom too seriously, it was always just dumb fun and the new game is the same dumb fun, it isn't trying to reinvent the wheel.

>>386345836
has it flaws but it's not bad, gives a good 10hrs of entertainment without getting boring, gunplay feels nice.
stop memeing on nudoom being bad while you're fellating games with much worse gameplay like automata and witcher 3

>>386348149
>>386348238
Just try to compare the video of Doom 2 I posted above with this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4clvjusF_HI
And tell me with a straight face, if you can, that the second one looks good or exciting, or anything except flashy.

I had more fun with Doom 3

>>386347002
>glory kill animations slow
The slowest one takes 0.5 seconds. What kind of autismo sanic world do you live?

>>386348521
Doom 2 vid you posted above is dull as fuck.

>>386348521
>comparing realdeal gameplay vid to a motherfucking AAA studio's E3 video
>thinks latter looks somehow "good" or even realistic

The nu-Duum video looks generic, scripted and repetitious as fuck, with nothing interesting going on with the map-design or combat - because there is no carefully designed maps and enemy encounters whatsoever.

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>>386345836
>character moves slowly
Only compared to old Doom and Quake, you still move quite quickly compared to most fps games
>weapons shoot slowly
Only the combat shotgun which you replace anyway, and gauss cannon for balance reasons
>weapons feel like they don't have power
Bullshit, the super shotgun shreds through enemies with the upgrade, and the siege guass cannon is the definition of powerful since it rips through all but two of the enemies in one shot.
>level design with back-tracking
There is nothing wrong with backtracking
>walk - area locked - kill waves of enemies - area unlocked - walk - repeat
There is also nothing wrong with this kind of enemy spawning, as it allows for a more focused combat experience.
If there is anything I guess you can say that the game feels a bit more like Serious Sam than Doom I suppose, and enemies could have been handled somewhat better interms of how they attack the player because there are no big threat you need to deal with quickly.

>>386348704
Ok, you're right on that, but it pauses the gameplay for that half a second or so, and it happens often.

>>386348989
I think you misread.

>>386349159
Glory Kills are very similar in concept to the Zandatsu in MGR:R, yet you never see people complain about those even though they last far longer than any glory kill in Doom. (Hell there is even more variation in Doom since you can target different body parts for different animations)
Ultimately they give a tiny break so you can think about what to do next, are entirely optional and you can even equip the rune that makes the animations even faster than they already are.

>>386349027
I could understand you being right on the points about weapons - maybe I just didn't get far enough in the game. The rest I don't really see as refutations of my points, especially
>There is also nothing wrong with this kind of enemy spawning, as it allows for a more focused combat experience
This I think is complete bullshit, SS it was fun because the areas were frequently different, and the arenas were fucking GIGANTIC

>>386349159
Then don't fucking use them.
You use it to get health and maybe ammo, so don't get fucking hit and don't fucking miss. Most maps have health items and ammo strewn about, and game does the Resident Evil 4/Evil Within shit where if you kill shit on low health/ammo, they tend to drop more than usual or I just had weird RNG on Nightmare

>>386349027
>you still move quite quickly compared to most fps games
...and that's supposed to make it "OK"? If everyone else is a fucking huge moron, being a bit less of moron does not make you a non-moron.

>weapon speed
hit or miss, not my issue

>bullshit
no. Shotguns totally lack reach and PENETRATION, and it takes 3-4 shots from point black to even stagger those infected guys for Glory Killing.

>upgrades
that is not the answer. It's part of the PROBLEM.
Seriously, enough with bullshit upgrade systems in shooters!

>backtracking
this I quite agree with, except the nuDuum has fucking linear, almost forwards funneling map design most of the time. A random branch leading to a ""sercret"" does not negate this fact.

>There is also nothing wrong with this kind of enemy spawning, as it allows for a more focused combat experience.
On the contrary. It destroys the open and dynamic exploration and fights Doom used to be all about, and diminishes enemy encounters into tiny, bite-sized packs that just jump and run around the tiny "arenas" for no reason.

On top of that, there's no supply hunting or management whatsoever any more, as every enemy is now a fucking loot-Pinata that can insta-refill your HP and ammo. You don't even need to do Glory kills, as the lower your health, the MORE HP the enemies drop, just by killing them! The chainsaw was also totally butchered and turned into OP 1-hit KO + mega elixir device.

It's a total blasphemy to even call it a Sam-like, when SS games were all about fighting HUNDREDS of enemies at once. SS3 from 2011 already could show 2500 enemies on the map AND on the screen at once, together with tons of projectiles, explosions, gore and environmental destruction, and it looks and plays literally better than D4 ever will. And it does not suffer of consolitis cancer.

>>386345836
It's not a successor it's a sequel you dumbass

>>386349610
It isn't a question of just not using it because the enemies start glowing and stop fighting so you can have the qte, even if you not use you still get this in most of the deaths

>>386349682
>...and that's supposed to make it "OK"? If everyone else is a fucking huge moron, being a bit less of moron does not make you a non-moron.

Or maybe the older games were just too fast. Or maybe both are acceptable.

You are the one making the fallacy that the way it was before is automatically the right way to do it.

>>386345836
>> walk - area locked - kill waves of enemies - area unlocked - walk - repeat

unforgivable. what were they thinking?

>>386349682
You have to remember that this game isn't a pc exclusive so you would never have a really fast character, and the wave method is the only way to really have lots of enemies with today overbloated graphics

>>386349682
>OP 1-hit KO + mega elixir device.
>Fuel for it is fairly rare.
>enemies take an entire bar, meaning even at its max ammo count, you will kill 7 mooks with it at best.
>Bigger ones like the knights will take almost all the fuel away.
>Very fucking situational and you only use it when you're low on ammo to refill it, or to save ammo.
>OP in the slightest
It being some press button for awesome affair is shit, but calling it OP is retarded.

Doom was a fantastic game.

>>386350246
B U L L S H I T
So, the reason why it can't be fast-paced and all over the place is because muh console gamers.
You either make a game fun or you "broaden the demographics."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss8SyOhqk1I
>DewM fags will defend this

Given the fact that old doom isn't even full 3d, I find complaining about the raw speed between each game is a bit disingenuous

>>386349682
>and that's supposed to make it "OK"?
You don't even move that fast in a lot of the fast paced fps games to begin with, not every game needs to have you move at the same exact high speed to be good.
>not my issue
Then why complain about it
>it takes 3-4 shots from point black
The combat shotgun is literally shit, it's supposed to be replaced by the super shotgun which does in fact kill those enemies in one single hit, and penetrates through enemies as well.
>bullshit upgrades
I do agree that upgrade systems are quite stupid but it's not really that big of a deal honestly with them showering you in the upgrade points.
>nuDuum has fucking linear design
This is true
>tiny arenas
If done well these kind of encounters can still be fun in their own way, even if doom 4 could have made the arenas and enemies more interesting it still does it competently enough.
It does still show that consoles are holding back gaming but it manages to still be a good game regardless of that.

>>386350542
Again, raw number is hardly a fair comparison given how much more mechanically complex nuDoom is

>>386350682
>>386350706
> Muh "superior complexity"
Yeah, let's just make it look pretty and make it in a sophisticated engine, who needs fun am I right? Who the fuck gives a shit.

>>386350542
kek

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>>386350958
What the fuck are you complaining about, it is objectively more complex than the older games

>>386350958
Did you even read my post? I still prefer games like Serious Sam to Doom 4 but i'm not saying it's unredeemable garbage as it's still fun, maybe in a different way to the original two Doom games but that doesn't make it worse.
The console limitations it has to deal with are definitely one of it's biggest weakness however.

>>386351189
Sorry, it was a misquote meant for >>386350634

>>386351189
Also, I'm wondering - if you had to pick a game to play for the rest of your life with an infinite amount of custom maps to choose from, would you pick Doom 2 (or Ultimate) or DOOM?

>>386349609
Doom arenas are obviously not as big but they are more than open fields with a different landscape like SS. They are designed more like if they were small multiplayer maps, and that alone gaves them the advantage for me. In the end, most complains I see here is that "Is not like Doom 1" which is true, but that doesn't make it a bad game, D44M is a really, really good game on it's own.

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>multiplayer only achievements
>you need to reach at least level 400 to be able to do the challenges to get a piece of cyberdemonic armor, or level 500 without challenges.
Fuck this shit

>>386351657
Alright, I think I see what you're saying. It's a good game on its own, then why call it Doom? If it's called Doom I want my fucking Doom! I don't want to "settle."

>>386351606
D44M, I like being able to move in a real 3D space and prefer to have the advantages that come with it rather than the raw speed of the pseudo-3D that the first two Doom had.

>>386345836
>> weapons shoot slowly
>> weapons feel like they don't have power (muh super-shotgun :()
>> level design with back-tracking
>> walk - area locked - kill waves of enemies - area unlocked - walk - repeat
Why would you lie on the internet
Also why is the original doom that good? Because you run fast as fuck? The level design was OK but all enemys in the original are basically the same.
Doom 2 is where its at.

>>386351606
Doom 2 would be the obvious choice because of how much more freedom there is in mapping and the fact that it's been out for so long meaning way more shit has been made for it too.
Snapmaps can be fun but are just way too limited.

>>386351886
Alright, if the graphics is really what you prefer. I prefer the difficulty, the control and power of movement you have in the old ones. Also, the possibilities of the editor.

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>>386345836
>mfw according to /v/, I'm not supposed to like the best, most fun FPS I played since Duke Nukem 3D (on top of having legitimately great graphics and optimization) because le epic Rip and Tear button and metal soundtrack that nobody is allowed to unironically enjoy

You guys lead some sad lives.

>>386351828
Because Doom has been rather dynamic ever since the third game which was less Doom than this one. I do agree that D44M should have been it's own IP, in fact I would have loved the game even more if it was that since not only it would be the best FPS in like a decade (IMO) but it would have been a completely new franchise. That said, I also think that it works as a Doom sequel, it is a nice different take on the franchise which I understand why you don't like it, but you also have to understand that people who grew up with Doom can also love Doom 4.

>>386352190
I'm not sure what you're saying here, I love the soundtrack. And if you enjoy it, fine, you do you. I just can't and I'm wondering why people like you are.

>>386352190
>But I had fun!
Is that supposed to make the game any less shit?

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>>386352190
>you guys

>>386352350
I understand that. I'm also just trying to understand why.

>>386352059
I never said graphics, I said that 3D gives you a better moveset than the pseudo 3D that old Doom had like for example, jumping and aiming on the Z axis, more complext enemy patterns, and all the crazy shit you can do in Quake. Doom 1 only has raw speed going on for it when it comes to movement. I would have said the same if you had replaced D44M with Quake, Unreal, etc.

>>386352190
Only jaded old people hate D44M.
They hate D44M because its its own game instead of being a clone of a legend that it can never live up to.

>>386352416
In my opinion, it's a great game. Now you can tell me why your opinion is more valid and objectively correct than mine.

>tfw you enjoy the multiplayer

>>386352945
It's fun but balance is shit and the game is way too lenient with what counts as a hit at far distances.

>>386349159
>and it happens often

it happens as often as you use them

fyi the game is easier when you don't

>when old doom has more advanced technology than nuDoom
https://youtu.be/qi1iMAP4xuI?t=31

>>386352861
Because it aims to just create a power fantasy for everyone who plays it by letting you play aggressively, but all they did was drag down the skill ceiling by installing safety nets such as ammo and health pinatas which only compensate for reckless play rather than encourage smart play. The very core of the level design direction in nuDoom is always the same shit: a skatepark with enemies spawning in in waves. Never is this concept expanded upon or turned upside down, so aside from the enemy types used there isn't much which forces you to change your strategies, and the game ends up feeling stale.

There's barely any enemies which you have to prioritize, because you're given such freedom of movement you can just climb or circlestrafe away from just about anything. Since the crux of the combat is the moment-to-moment process of fighting multiple demons rather than navigating the level, they should have expanded on that and built the AI around having enemies use the level to their own unique advantages. But all the enemies do is either randomly move around at long-range and spam projectiles, or aggressively chase your ass while spamming projectiles. Even though the enemies have an expanded moveset, it's rarely ever used intelligently. Enemies don't cooperate, enemies don't aim to restrict your movement, and so on. It's a massive heap of wasted potential.

Glory Killing itself is a crutch nobody uses on Nightmare because it does take you out of the fight and get you killed, whereas health drops are guaranteed if you are low on health and kill an enemy normally. It's a redundant mechanic which you don't really master, it's just there to encourage people to play more aggressively even though there are smarter ways of going about it.

There's just so much wasted potential and contradictive design decisions everywhere. The only thing it has going for it is the presentation and polish.

Game is great on harder diffs. Autists just can't handle games of the same name but released much later, even if good, see: Prey.

>>386352794
If there's anything good about D44M, its that it managed to do a fine job of rebooting the series for a new console generation without going for the horror route Doom 3 did. Also because the devs had enough foresight to cancel Call of Doom during Carmack-era id.

>>386354473
I can argue against your points about the enemy design and not needing to priotitize them. Killing certsin types of enemies first rather than others IS a thing that still exists in D44M and in a great deal too. If you go and kill imps rather than cacodemons or the cutting laser demons you will be in a world of trouble later on. The enemies use the map in a dynamic way, it's just different than in Doom 1 because in this one, the move around the map as if it was a multiplayer match, which is enticing and complicated on it's own.

I feel like level design will make us go on a more subjective tangen so won't mention that.

>>386353681
Looks good

>>386345836
We can't let it get the nuclear codes!

>> character moves slowly
>> weapons shoot slowly
>> weapons feel like they don't have power (muh super-shotgun :()
>> level design with back-tracking


So like the original DOOM

>that ending
but why

>>386345836
>> character moves slowly

Stopped reading.

>>386349532
The enemy encounters in Doom 4 in general takes much more inspiration from character action games than Serious Sam. (a lot of levels in character action games have a design where there are sporadic enemies in the level that you kill and then some huge setpieces that let you go CURHAYZEE).
The Serious Sam comparisons are retarded when you know that:
>id people have stated in numerous interviews that Doom 4 took a lot of inspiration for the combat from DMC/GoW
>absolutely nobody at id software would pick Serious Sam over Doom 2 if given a choice to play either

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>>386345836
>its not exactly like the original DOOM

Nu-Doom could be a nearly 1:1 carbon copy of oldschool Doom and the same people would still complain it ruined Doom and fucked up the flow and mechanics. Everytime I look at people complain about CS:GO and how it's not as good as 1.6 and isn't good at all, I dont even know what to think. Then you have the shitters that say shit like 1.5 is better than 1.6. And how 1.6 ruined the game.

TL;DR Elitist are never happy and don't like change in the slightest.

>>386355134
>Killing certsin types of enemies first rather than others IS a thing that still exists in D44M and in a great deal too. If you go and kill imps rather than cacodemons or the cutting laser demons you will be in a world of trouble later on
Cacodemons are just flying Imps with a bigger healthpool and hitbox, and a projectile which obscures your vision if you get hit by it, but can still be easily avoided. Hell Razers are too inaccurate to ever be a threat, if you're far away then you are in a different world the moment they stop telegraphing and fire, while the sweeping angle for their laser isn't as large as it should be. If you are close, you can easily stagger them with about everything. The only immediate threats are Lost Souls and Hell Knights/Barons, but they don't appear as much as they should.

>The enemies use the map in a dynamic way, it's just different than in Doom 1 because in this one, the move around the map as if it was a multiplayer match, which is enticing and complicated on it's own.
There's only several problems with that.

1) They can only play catch-up with me if I do decide to climb around like a monkey. For them to be in my path on higher vertical levels they either had to be there beforehand while moving about randomly as most of them do when you aren't close. They can't utilize vertical space to the same extent you do and try to predict where you're going to cut off your escape, aside from Imps climbing on walls to get a better sight at you. And the cornerstone of good AI is that they can behave like a player can.

>>386357212
2) The enemies don't synergize. This is because the active demons at once is on average fairly low, there's way too much space to maneuver in so enemy formations become irrelevant if you just circlestrafe or climbg away, and there's nothing in the way of combination attacks like you'd see in Streets of Rage 3. In beat 'em ups the level layout itself is moot and encounter design largely depends on the enemies used and their amount (occasionally placement as well), but in those games positioning and crowd control actually fucking mattered because you couldn't always circlestrafe or climb away. Then consider there's the instakill methods of the chainsaw and BFG which trivialize larger threats like it's nothing. You don't see something like the BFG in Bayonetta. Had the levels been more restrictive and the enemies more numerous, then you'd actually have to pay attention to their ranks and be careful not to get swarmed. Or if the AI was actually more intelligent and played on restricting your movement (through coordinated projectile spam, enemies laying mines on platforms you're likely to climb on, enemies performing flanking and distraction tactics, just to name some). But as it stands the element of crowd control is moot because you rarely ever risk getting swarmed. Heck, when has the acid area denial attack of a Cyber-Mancubus ever put you in a tight spot? Besides, player-like AI doesn't only work in arena combat, but it also worked in older games like Descent which was a full 3D Doom clone, and games like F.E.A.R. or Unreal.

>>386345836
The mechanics and everything matter when you play on nightmare. The game only becomes good once you get to the argent tower and have access to jump pads and double jump.

Some people enjoy the kind of quake/arena shooter battles.

>>386345836
I made this thread >>386356937 because I didn't notice we already have one. Here's my input.

>most demons look like generic ass DOTA monsters now
>hell is xen from half life
>tons of jumping puzzles in this game because everybody loves jumping puzzles
>doomguy is too slow; instead of a sprint option, the devs inexplicably added a walk option which you will never need to use
>the game consists of 13 levels worth of mindlessly killing 5 enemies at a time in a closed off arena
>WEAPON UPGRADES, PERKS, RUNES; kids these days love those RPGs and MOBAs, right? what kind of a game doesn't let you LEVEL UP in CURRENT YEAR?
>story is totally fucked. doomguy is some kind of holy messiah recovered from a tomb or something. just LOL

>>386357287
>I feel like level design will make us go on a more subjective tangen so won't mention that.
The nuDoom levels objectively lose when it comes to variety, which then makes the game feel rather stale, especially towards the end of the game when it's just three non-descript large kill rooms. They COULD be more varied, but the designers were apparently at a loss with how to mix things up other than deciding what enemies to use. Whereas the original had many different levels such as E4M1 and E1M5, on top of more gimmicky levels such as Tricks and Traps, Barrels 'O Fun, and Downtown, what does nuDoom do to keep things fresh?

>>386357303
Now it would have been really more fun if platforming was more woven in the combat itself rather than treated as its own thing. The movement and how it's tested as it stands in the game is dead simple, especially thanks to ledge grabbing providing a whole lot of leeway for missing jumps. For some reason someone thought mid-air turning with the second jump like the TF2 Scout double jump should be locked to a rune instead of being a basic feature, so until then double jumping is used as an extension of your jump to jump over some enemies (if you already have some kind of elevation over that enemy to begin with), instead of being able to be used for dodging and tricking enemies.

>>386354640
I liked the original prey remake where you played as that Indian dude where you can walk on walls. That was an actually good game. The new one is uninspired goat shit.

>>386349682
serious sam is bland and boring
fight me

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how to make nudoom better
>rework the audio mixing so you can tell what direction enemies and enemy attacks are coming from
>Hell Razers no longer fire straight lasers, but sweeping lasers instead (with varying elevations), they'll seek out the corners and high points of the arena first and start firing from there, but hitting them with anything will cancel the laser attack
>Mancubi projectile size is increased, their attack frequency is increased, but their projectile speed is decreased, so they'll fill the arena with tons of vision-obstructing fireballs if left alone for too long
>Imps work in squads, two or three will try to draw your attention from the front while the other two or three try to flank you
>possessed guards will run around and place explosive mines around platforms you're likely to climb on top of
>if you're high up, Cyber-Mancubi will carpetbomb the floor with acid and prevent you from coming down while other enemies will try to come at you from your elevation level
>hell knights and hell barons always come in pairs, one of which will try to aggressively leap towards you and groundpound you while the other leaps to positions to cut off your escape from your flanks and throw big fireballs at you
>Hell Knight and Hell Baron leaping attacks are reworked so that the shockwave isn't invisible anymore around the point of impact, but is instead a visible expanding shockwave you have to jump over or dash through, while Hell Barons can make earth rise out of the ground towards you direction like the Cyberdemon's second phase attack (if there is enough space)
>Pain Elementals are back and spawn Lost Souls like mad
>the possessed can now only be killed with explosives and headshots like the Ghouls in Quake, but if you dash them and knock them back, you can send them flying into other minor demons who get knocked over themselves as a result
>armor reduces health damage like usual instead of being a separate health bar

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>>386358395
>health and ammo aren't dropped while killing enemies when you are low on health
>glory killing is replaced by a dashing maneuver which when executed close-up on a staggered enemy lets you dash THROUGH enemies, which awards you with bonus ARMOR and a stackable speed boost
>everytime you get a speed boost your score multiplier will increase as well, however the enemy attack frequency will increase with each speedboost level, and upcoming enemy waves will spawn in faster
>if you get hit your speedboost and score multiplier will reset to zero, but the enemy aggression level will only be lowered by one for each enemy hit you take
>the only means to recover health is via pick-ups, or to score one million points which refills 50% of your health bar, which can stack up to 150% and 200% if you are already overcharged or at full health
>if demons aren't at low health when dashed through they'll just be knocked back, while larger demons will be staggered
>demons at low health will go berserk if left unkilled, which makes them move faster and have them attack even more aggressively, but other demons (like the shieldguys) will try to jump in to protect the almost-dead demon or draw your attention with a curtain of fireballs
>projectiles come in wide high, wide low, and middle variants, depending on their elevation
>wide high projectiles need to be slid under with a sliding maneuver as they are too wide and too fast to be circlestrafed around, wide low projectiles must be jumped over, while middle projectiles never come in wide forms, but they are leading and really fucking fast, so their trajectory takes in account the direction you're moving in

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>>386358540
>alternatively, dashing gives you enough i-frames to dash through projectiles, but it's tied to a limited energy meter which regenerates slowly but is partially refilled by damaging demons, the idea here is that you can jump, strafe or slide without expending energy, while dashing gets you out of this rock-paper-scissors situation scotfree at the expense of energy
>if you dash forward just as an enemy melee attack is about to hit you, the counter will kill them instantly
>increased jumping height and changing direction mid-air with the second jump is now a basic feature
>arena design in general will be more restrictive with the space you can move around in
>arenas feature more environmental hazards such as (destructible) floating platforms over lava pits, giant moving lethal machinery, shifting pools of radioactive waste, conveyor belts, and platforming in general is more integrated within combat
>get rid of all the gay upgrade shit, all the weapons have their two mods by default, the first which is accessed by tapping RMB once and the second by doubletapping RMB or holding LMB down (depends on the mod)
>less meandering between arenas
>ammo pickups are very scarce, ammo types now regenerate ammunition over time, with ammo types you aren't currently using regenerating more quickly like in Alien Soldier
>enemy AI will try to avoid coming into your line of sight and aggressively chase you from behind while trying to anticipate incoming dashes, but if you have your back turned to them they won't expect you dashing backwards into them
>BFG doesn't require ammo, but the souls of fallen demons instead, and fires a giant unstoppable projectile that cancels other projectiles (without homing energy rays) if you charge it by holding down LMB, but it can also be used as a quick smartbomb to detonate around you and cancel bullets/stagger opponents, with the duration and range depending on the amount of souls you had stored

>>386358624
>possessed guards and shieldguys are fused into one enemy and can either shift between harassing you from longer ranges with expanding shots and planting mines, or switching to shield mode if you get close
>summoners don't teleport around, but dash short distances instead and dodge a whole lot
>minor demons like imps and guards can piggyback on Hell Knights while they are leaping
>Cacodemons can be used as mounts by other minor demons (and you) to fly around and harass you from high-up, Cacodemons are also faster and more numerous, and they have a weakspot on top of their body which once shot will have them drop to the floor crushing anything beneath and explode like a bomb
>Revenants now fire slow-moving homing missiles like they did in the original, which can also be shot down, and Revenants will either try to piss you off with homing missiles from long-range, or use their jetpack to aggressively move in and try to punch you if you are out of visual range

>>386345836
>walk - area locked - kill waves of enemies - area unlocked - walk - repeat
I really dislike this too, but according to the noclip interview, it was done out of technical limitations. They couldn't have a hundred or so demons roaming around a level like in the original Doom's since that would tank performance.

>>386351730

>tfw got season pass for 5 bucks in a sale before the new unlock system
>unlocked the armor, demons and shit instantly
>get cheevos

>>386358968
>They couldn't have a hundred or so demons roaming around a level like in the original Doom's since that would tank performance
The console versions of Serious Sam 3 could handle more than 100 on screen at a time and that was on PREVIOUS-GEN HARDWARE. Did id focus more on pretty graphics instead of gameplay?

>>386352945

Outside of shitty balance here and there and crappy maps, I was suprisingly addicted to it.

The only downside is that even with a stable internet I occasionally lag like a bitch. Still a ton fun when you git gud.

>>386358187
cuck

>>386359253

You're forgetting that the enviorments of Serious Sam are barebones. They are fun as fuck games but the entire arenas are flat as they can get.

>>386345836
v likes it because its doom with a story and thats fucking gay
they also like it because it is "retro" as fuck and they totally remember playing (learning about doom in late high school or college because they were born later) doom when they were a kid!!
It also has easy to master mash and win qte insta kills for fucking every enemy. i beat the game by walking into enemies and face tanking them while spamming the melee insta gib button. after a couple hits they explode into health items and the game always gives you more if you are low on health so you cant lose unless you are a complete retard.
they replaced good classic metal with shitty dubstep metal and replaced the artstyle with the skyrim edition of doom where everything is just generic and covered in spikes with glowing eyes. only passable design is pinky demon. praeter armor looks like a retarded master chief rip off.
thats why veee likes this game.
they also hate the vastly superior wolfenstein the new order because you kill nazis in that game and that goes against pol and v cant ever go against pol. this post will probably get deleted just because i said this last thing and i think that is a shame since this is just a discussion of videogames.

tldr:
if you like nudoom you are the thing killing videogames

>>386359253
Serious Sam games have much simpler AI since all they have to do is charge at you or shoot you without any other thought.

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>character moves slowly

>>386345836
it's fun. that's the only argument you need, you negative fuck

>>386359438
Isn't the MC in the new prey a stronk wymyn?

Ive never really played doom before but i had fun and i dont like typical fps games.

>>386345836
subjectivity, you stupid fuck. tired of seeing these contrarian threads that just stir shit around people's opinions of something

>>386359837
No?

NUUM was pretty fun t b h

yeah i sure do love entering one room and waiting for the enemies to spawn as i mash them to death for constant full health and then go to the next room to do it again, nu doom wasn't a complete fucking slog at all nope no way.

There's no point trying to defend it anymore because no matter how clear and concise your arguments are, the response is always going to be the same.

>LE ID/BETHESDA SHILL
>MUH KILL ROOMS
>MUH 12 ENEMIES
>MUH GLORY KILLS

Fucking hell, I've seen people say Doom 3 was a better game which makes me believe this place has truly become so ironically contrarian it's attracted fucking retards who genuinely believe the spiel being spouted. What next, Mario 64 is the worst Mario game and wasn't that revolutionary? Metal Gear Solid 4 was the best game in the series?

>>386359751
Descent saw more complicated AI than nuDoom in fucking 1995 on an i486. The computing load for AI should be fucking minimal, especially nowadays.

>>386360012
>>386359929
>>386359826
We're trying to discuss the objective merits of the game here. Whether you liked it or not is irrelevant. Seriously, do you think discussions should be infinite streams of 'I had fun' and 'I hated it'? At least contribute or something or don't post at all.

>>386360091
>There's no point trying to defend it anymore because no matter how clear and concise your arguments are
Then try arguing why muh kill rooms, muh 12 enemies and muh glory kills are actually a good thing.

>>386348047
Have you played the game?

>>386360091
Doom 3 was decent when it came out (when most gen z were still in diapers). Doom 3 ROE was considered very good, though it did pander to Half Life fans by adding a gravity gun.

Look, don't get me wrong, Doom 4 is alright as something to get you through one day but that's not really saying much about how good the game itself actually is. For me, most contemporary games are absolutely unplayable. My favorite genre used to be FPS when I was growing up and now there's not a single decent FPS. Even Doom has the stupid weapon upgrades because gen z can't imagine enjoying a game without seeing tangible "progress" in the form of leveling up.

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It's a rock solid first person shooter.
Also there's nothing wrong with CoD's singleplayer campaigns i don't see reason why people hate hem.

Call of Duty, Doom, Wolfenstein, Bioshock Infinite, halo - all these games are much much better than trash multiplayer only crap like battlefield, csgo, overwatch and destiny.

>>386360227
>Then try arguing why muh kill rooms, muh 12 enemies and muh glory kills are actually a good thing.
No, because I've wasted too many hours of my life writing up paragraphs on why at the worst they don't matter and at their best they're inconsequential flavor changes to imitate the Doom comic everybody knows about.

Oh right, by the way, /v/ now "always hated that comic" because Doom 4 took that material to heart as a reference, just wanting to have some goofy fun with a series about killing demons from hell.

>>386360227
>We're trying to discuss the objective merits of the game here. Whether you liked it or not is irrelevant. Seriously, do you think discussions should be infinite streams of 'I had fun' and 'I hated it'? At least contribute or something or don't post at all.
What's the point to that kind of an "dicussion" games are supposed to be fun not some remarkable piece of art

>>386360589
>just wanting to have some goofy fun
That's not how things work anymore. You think devs are allowed to have "goofy fun" with a multi-million dollar franchise? Doom 4 was as safe and bland as they come.

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does anyone else really just not like the new designs?

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>>386360543
>Bioshock Infinite
Try again.

>>386360731
Is that the new LoL hero?

>>386358395
>>386358540
>>386358624
No to the sliding and incrementally increased speed, this always leads to leaderboard and speedrun faggotry.
Why can't we get a game where you have a good sense of your character model so dodging things can be interesting?

>>386352190
no, it's perfectly fine to have shit taste
just don't be surprised when people call you on it

>>386360726
That would have made it like cod and battlefield, taking different approaches is "unsafe"

>>386360738
still better than multiplayer only trash with cancerous community

I didn't particularly enjoy the game, but holy fuck I never bought a soundtrack so fast in my life.

>>386360726
>Doom 4 was as safe and bland as they come.
Yet /v/ consistently bitches about the platforming and hidden secrets that were added to the game, something rarely if ever seen in modern FPS. It gutted regenerating health which is starting to become a norm again, and even did away with reloading. /v/ can't shut up about what must be a minute of cutscenes total tops when to even the most ADHD riddled player that's fucking zero story. What does it set up? Sam Hayden is a sleazy corporate man who did a bad thing and Doom Guy is gonna kill him. Wow what a fucking novel that was, God save me /v/ from the cinematic boogeyman.

>>386361016
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNkQMtZAMAw

>>386360731
The Cyberdemon and the Imps are pretty bad but the other redesigns are way better.

>>386360227
>objective merits
When it comes to enjoyment of something, objectivity is not possible.

A lot of points the OP makes are not even valid in my mindset. The player isn't slow in DOOM. Compared to the original Doom and Quake games, maybe. But compared to more modern shooters, it's very fast and one of the reasons I personally enjoyed it. On top of the monster design and AI, soundtrack that had me pumped, great sound design, etc etc. But that's just like my opinion. But arguing who is right or wrong on a topic like this is asinine.

>>386360227
>It's not possible to enjoy a game without it having objective-able merits.

>>386361034
>Yet /v/ consistently bitches about the platforming and hidden secrets that were added to the game, something rarely if ever seen in modern FPS.
I haven't heard anyone complain about the secrets. The only complaint regarding secrets is that half the time, they are not "secret" at all, they are just shortcuts to take you back to a locked door after you find the key.

>It gutted regenerating health which is starting to become a norm again
The way this game is set up makes it EASIER than regenerating health games. COD2 is harder this this game. Every demon is a pinata that shits health when you kill them.

>/v/ can't shut up about what must be a minute of cutscenes total tops when to even the most ADHD riddled player that's fucking zero story.
I actually like story in my games. I just think the story in this one is stupid.

The main things critics of the new Doom complain about is the weapons upgrades and other stupid generic features implemented to appease the DOTA crowd, the movement, the low number of enemies, and the repetitive gameplay consisting of getting locked in a room and killing 6 enemies at a time.

>>386361569
>I actually like story in my games. I just think the story in this one is stupid.
>I just think the story in this one is stupid.
>I just think
Well there's your problem. You're clearly retarded.

>>386360731
The designs were really hit-or-miss. Cacodemon looks fine, Hell Knights look good, Revenant looks fantastic, Cyberdemon looks generic as shit. They just took a big, bulky demon and threw a few electronic bits on him.

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Where the fuck is Serious Sam 4?
I want to mow down thousands of kleers with the minigun but at a shiny 10fps on my outdated graphics card.

>>386361569
>he way this game is set up makes it EASIER than regenerating health games.
It doesn't matter how easy or hard it is. The whole combat loop of Doom is that you shoot an enemy, they shoot you, you take damage, you kill them and in return, you get health for the kill. It's a process that encourages the player to run and gun, get in the faces of the demons instead of being a passive bitch hiding behind cover.

>Le daily DOOM is shit meme thread

Fuck off with this bait. If it was shit you twats would have forgot it like a year ago

>>386360589
>No, because I've wasted too many hours of my life writing up paragraphs on why at the worst they don't matter and at their best they're inconsequential flavor changes to imitate the Doom comic everybody knows about.
Then why are you posting this to begin with, you weakling? I've wandered the internet for more than a year to see if my assumptions about the game are wrong, yet I've rarely been convinced as I end up either being ignored or the other guy tries to stifle the discussion with "it's fun". I've even rewritten my jumbo copypasta about the game THRICE, let alone how much I've replayed the game to come to an informed conclusion.

I sure as hell wouldn't call the shit you listed inconsequential given their massive impact on the design of the game and the impact thereof.

>>386360886
>this always leads to leaderboard and speedrun faggotry
Why shouldn't the shitters be discerned from the gods?

>>386360604
>>386361138
>But arguing who is right or wrong on a topic like this is asinine
We're talking about how the design decisions of the game strive to accomplish the feeling of ripping and tearing as the developers intended, and what could have been done to improve it, or why the current mechanics in place fail to achieve the intended purpose. For example, Glory Kills could have taken two seconds instead of as they are now. Would that have made them better or worse? For example, your movement speed could have been a lot slower. Would that have made the game better or worse. For example, the enemies could work together more often to perform combination attacks. Would that have made the game better or worse?

>>386361462
Again, stop trying to make this a case of I LIKED IT and I DIDN'T LIKE IT. There simply isn't much to talk about in that case. You should be smart enough to know you can like things even if they're badly done or realized. Just because I'm mercilessly shitting on the game doesn't mean I think it's irredeemable trash either.

>>386361569
Unless you intentionally avoid enemies with the intention of corralling them around and moving goalposts, in Doom 1 there's like maybe two areas where you fight more than twelve enemies in a room.

People horribly misremember how many enemies were actually in Doom 1, and I'm pretty certain it's because they could move between rooms if you didn't kill them.

This thread is stupid. People who don't like Doom 2016 are stupid.

>>386348047
nu-duum shitters B T F O

>>386362020
The difference is that in Doom 1 it's easily possible to have more than 12 enemies on screen at a time, whereas in D44M the game is hardlocked to never ever spawn more than 12 enemies at once even if you make a snapmap with 64 enemies in a room.

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>>386362102
>Expansions
I'd rather pound sand than give my hypothetical time to game developers who think their game is such hot shit that they should have expansions. Warcraft III in particular, seeing as the base game aside from the map editor is a flaming turd.

>>386350542

Doom as a single-player game is good. Everything else that came with the game sucked. The multiplayer sucks. The mod thing or whatever sucks. We all know this.

>>386354473
>enemies don't aim to restrict your movement
They do though. Instead of aiming directly at the player, they aim in a cone in the movement direction of the player. As a result, they'll either fire directly on you, fire where you'd be if you kept running, or end up somewhere in between. As a result it's not as simple as just plain strafing sideways or doing the rapid ADADAD movement.

>>386357212
>Cacodemons not worth paying attention to despite having crazy bite damage and enough projectile damage to one-bang a player without armour.
>Hell Knights worth paying attention to when their melee swipes have pitiful range and their jump slam doesn't aim ahead unlike projectiles.
Barons absolutely worth paying attention to, but regular hell knights won't hurt you unless you stop moving or corner yourself.

>>386360543

Also this is one of the dumbest posts on here.

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You're at the Mars Base when this guy slaps your rabbit. He's 10' tall 450 lbs, what do you do?

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>best demon isn't even in the campaign

It's the only shooter in at least a decade where using cover is never favorable. It's good.

>>386362565
WHERE ARE THE FUCKING ARCHVILES AND PAIN ELEMENTALS
Pain Elementals are going to be an absolute prick of an enemy with how annoying Lost Souls are now.

>>386362535
Get teleported back into Hell.
Find another portal back to Earth.
[Scene/s Missing]
Punch him in the robo-nads.

>>386362335
RoC's campaign and story are objectively better than Frozen Throne.
And the only reason the game feels better now is because of years and years and years of patches, just like Diablo 2 and Brood War.

>>386357287
>Cacodemons are just slower, floating imps
What just like the originals? They can hit you from more angles than imps and their blast hits harder than the imps. Hellrazers become a threat when they are far from you, which can happen often thanks to Pinky Demons, Hell Knights and whatever the fuck are those teleporting things named requiring you to back and/or chase them depending on the situation.

>Complaining about having space to maneuver and that causing enemies to not overwhelm you
That is a fantastic thing and the reason why Quake is superior to Doom. You absolutely need that bigger space because the AI in D44M is way more aggressive and has more attacks than the original game. The hell knights never stop appearing once you encounter them for the first time, I dunno what you are talking about. Synergy happens but is again different from the simple yet effective synergy from Doom 1.

You seem to care more about enemy numbers and raw speed while at the same time disregarding the fact that D44M makes up for the lack of speed with better controls and movement tools. Games with a large number of enemies on screen like Doom and SS will be played differently than games that have a much lower number like Quake and D44M. Design will also require different solutions and philosophies. It seems like you like DOOM because of the high number of enemies on screen, while also forgetting that it is a very simple game that got surpassed in terms of movement tools by games like Quake, Unreal and yes D44M.

>>386361807
>It's a process that encourages the player to run and gun, get in the faces of the demons instead of being a passive bitch hiding behind cover.
It encourages them, sure. But the thing is that if you would have gotten better and more skilled at the game, then getting in their faces would be the standard way you should have played it as that would be the fastest and coolest looking method of playing. An aggressive playstyle would be a natural extension of your skill level, just look at high-level Vanquish plays for example.

But this could have been also done by enemies aggressively punishing passive behavior and forcing players to bring the fight to the enemy, it could have been done with a scoring system such as Ketsui which gives you bonus points for point-blanking enemies, or with a time limit. What id has done here is instead encourage aggressive behavior by being more lenient with the damage you take through frequent health drops. You are allowed to be aggressive because the game pretty much takes care of your health for you as long as you stay close. It's an incredibly cheap way of encouraging aggression. Now anyone can feel like they're a badass and a high-level player because they aren't as likely to die with the constant health drops. It's also rather redundant because high-level players would be playing aggressively with or without health drops. You'd be forced to git gud if you died all the time, but if the game just okays any damage you take that incentive to get better disappears and the skill ceiling drops as a result.

>>386362248
Bullshit, I have seen like 25 on the late game levels. The 12 enemies number is for snapmap

>>386363290
Can you provide proof? Even on Argent D'Nur I never seen more than 12 enemies at once during it's 3 arenas.

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>didn't figure out how to change equipment until VEGA processing, and only did it because a challenge required it.
>equipment was just grenade + holoduke + grenade.
Didn't miss out on much apparently.

>Get the Mobile Turret upgrade for the Chaingun.
>Ignore the "Mobile" part and assume it's an actual turret.
>Fully upgrade it only to discover it's just a chew-excessive-ammo firing mode that guts your movespeed.
>End up never using it because assault rifle micro-rockets were so much better.

>>386362996
>Pain Elementals
Hopefully lost forever

>>386363194
You seem like an idiot. No offense.

>>386363194
Dude, ever since Doom got mouse lock, playing agresive has been the standard way to play. The AI wasn't designed for the player moving this fast and so, it is easy, much easier than Doom, to get in the face of the demons. My little sister did it when she was 9, and a couple of my ultra casual friends can do it, and they were playing on ultra violence.

Take those rose tinted glasses out and face the reality that playing like a crazed motherfucker in doom 1 isn't a big feat nor a test of skill, it's how you're encouraged to play and is a very, very easy thing to do.

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I liked it because it was different then most of the stuff that had been coming out at the time. Also the level creator gave me a reason to play after I finished up the campaign. I thought all the mechanics were fine, but I guess I could see that some people the movement was too slow or that glory kills interrupted gameplay. Different strokes for different folks i guess. Fucking hated the ending of the game though.

>>386363080
>What just like the originals?
That is not an excuse.
>They can hit you from more angles than imps and their blast hits harder than the imps
Yet the means of dodging them remains the same.
>Hellrazers become a threat when they are far from you, which can happen often thanks to Pinky Demons, Hell Knights and whatever the fuck are those teleporting things named requiring you to back and/or chase them depending on the situation.
The levels are rarely that open (as in, final hell level proportions), and usually have enough shit to block the line of sight between you and the Razer. Even so their laser is still more inaccurate than it should be, and the prospect of distance is moot with the Gauss Rifle and Rocket Launcher which can take out a Razer from any range easily.

>You seem to care more about enemy numbers and raw speed while at the same time disregarding the fact that D44M makes up for the lack of speed with better controls and movement tools. Games with a large number of enemies on screen like Doom and SS will be played differently than games that have a much lower number like Quake and D44M. Design will also require different solutions and philosophies. It seems like you like DOOM because of the high number of enemies on screen, while also forgetting that it is a very simple game that got surpassed in terms of movement tools by games like Quake, Unreal and yes D44M.
But Quake's level design is often incredibly tight and requires you to make the most out of what little space you have while enemies like Knights charge at you with a sword while spamming projectiles, while Ogres have you dodging erratic bouncing projectiles, and Fiends being an incredible pain in tight quarters. If the space you could move around in was increased, then effect the level design itself has on the combat encounter would decrease at well and make it more dependent on the AI, which isn't necessarily something Quake banked on.

>>386365318

Then there's first-person shooters like Descent which have you dodge projectiles in VERY tight quarters as a result of the level design and clever enemy AI which is capable of dodging and leading its shots, as with tons of free space you'd be circlestrafing endlessly in empty space.

This ties back to nuDoom because the levels itself do little to restrict you, which in turn makes some attacks like the Cyber-Mancubi acid pointless since you always have enough room to maneuver around it. You are never backed into corner by the levels or the enemies themselves because you have tons of space to move around in. Getting swarmed in nuDoom is quite frankly impossible, especially with things like the BFG, doublejumping, chainsaws, Siege Mode, and the Stun Bomb. At some point the game is just too lenient with the escape tools it gives you.

It's a good thing that Imps lead their shots on Nightmare, but this then ties back to the limited amount of enemies and your firepower. One Imp dies like a fly once you get some decent weapons, Imps are easily staggered by anything, and most of them aren't attacking as aggressively as they could be, instead opting to run around and taunt for some reason as part of a weird AI quirk. To put it simply, there's not enough enemies firing leading shots at you during combat to really make you reconsider how you move around. Enemies don't try to think in the long-term and cut off your movement options, they can only think about leading their shots. That's why this lack of potential difficulty can be compensated by either making the level layouts more restrictive so you have less escape options like in Quake and Descent, or to increase the enemy count and the amount of projectiles you have to deal with like in Marathon.

I should also note that a part of the challenge derived in games like Unreal and Descent was derived from not having hitscan weapons equipped all the time, you had to predict the enemy's movement too.

>>386345836
It's fun. You ever tried not being so autistic?

>>386363290
The Possessed don't seem to count towards the enemy limit, given that they're incredibly useless and all.

>>386363869
How so?

>>386363942
What part of my post made it seem like I was talking about the original?

the game feels fast as fuck once you get into the groove. Especially if you switch between weapons a lot and are getting constant glory kills to keep yourself alive/get more ammo. The music pumps me up so hard too. I loved every time I had to fight a hoard. Especially when you'd get that berserker power up or chainsaw. Sorry you didn't play the game right OP.

>The Possessed don't seem to count towards the enemy limit, given that they're incredibly useless and all.
Not even talking about them, I've seen more than 12 imps on screen


>What part of my post made it seem like I was talking about the original?
You keeping up aping the original and disregarding the fact that playing in a agresive way being easy for everyone has been a thing that Doom has had for decades.

>>386352190
Dook Nukem 3D wasn't even that good to begin with.

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>>386365401
You act as if these other games did any of these things. Enemies didn't move to specific areas the player wasn't in in Unreal. There were no 'advanced tactics'. The difficulty in Unreal came solely from the monsters shooting whilst simultaneously sprinting, someone which would get you killed instantly in D44M.

Imagine a Baron firing off plasma shots while jumping across the map, or a mancubus firing his rocket-dualies non-stop no cooldown. That's what D44M would be like if it swallowed the Unreal pill.

>>386365889
Every time I got the berzerker powerup I spent most of the time trying to find enemies to kill because there were so few enemies around at one time.

>>386349682
>3-4 shots from point black to even stagger those infected guys for Glory Killing
You have to hit them

>>386345836
ur mom LUL

>>386366356
Don't you forget the fact that Unreal's AI seems so "impressive" solely because it reads your inputs

>>386366356
>Imagine a Baron firing off plasma shots while jumping across the map, or a mancubus firing his rocket-dualies non-stop no cooldown.
The game would actually have enemies that would pose some challenge then, because right now the enemies are all consoletier pushovers.

>>386345836
>Soundtrack is epic
The soundtrack is possibly the worst aspect. Generic djent mixed with industrial. Not as single solo to be found. The guy who wrote it almost literally plays the soundtrack on a single string.

>>386366950
Are you literally retarded?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua-f0ypVbPA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g-7-dFXOUU

>>386358741
>>386358624
>>386358540
>>386358395
Some of these sound good, but some like
>possessed guards will run around and place explosive mines around platforms you're likely to climb on top of
sound like a bad idea. Annoying shit around the arena will discourage players from being mobile and slow the game down

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>>386366779
100%

Using Flak and Eightball against the Skaarj is basically potluck; they spam roll like a low hp chosen undead. You have to solely use hitscans like the ASMD or splash to get any damage in.

>>386366950
I actually agree. There were times where the music seemed fine, but i'm not sure if it was because the music WAS good, or if I was distracted by the superb gameplay. Some of it was irredeemable trash; the track where they literally used a synthesized chainsaw comes to mind, especially because it has these obnoxious 2 second long breaks.

Whether the music is good or bad isn't something I care to fight about, though.

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>>386352506
>foobar
What skin is that btw? Looks pretty sexy.

>>386365994
>You keeping up aping the original and disregarding the fact that playing in a agresive way being easy for everyone has been a thing that Doom has had for decades.
I've never made a point about aggression in the original Doom, only games in general. Just because it's easy to pull off in Doom is no excuse for nuDoom, what makes you think I'm trying to compare the two in ways other than the variety of the levels themselves? I'm criticizing the game on its own merits, for all the strawmanning about critics hampering on nuDoom for not being like the original I sure have to be doing the very opposite.

>>386366356
>You act as if these other games did any of these things
They didn't because they didn't have to. The level layout played a larger role in those games than it did in nuDoom, where it is more dependent on the AI behaviour. Basically the levels themselves there make a up a lesser part of the challenge in favor of the AI. So wouldn't it be a good idea to expand on the AI, or just fake it like F.E.A.R. did? Remember that in Unreal you weren't as nimble as you were in nuDoom, most of your weapon arsenal wasn't hitscan so the act of hitting enemies themselves wasn't that easy with the input-reading dodging bullshit, and enemies on the whole were rather bulletspongy to imitate multiplayer bots even further. In Unreal you weren't skating around a skatepark with enemies spawning around you, and the enemies themselves weren't as fast to even pull off complicated team maneuvers, so the level compensated for that lack of maneuverability instead (and even then I'd say a lot of levels were a bit too open).

>>386367563
http://extremehunter1972.deviantart.com/art/CaTRoX-1-April-2014-368146015

>>386345836
>> character moves slowly
what the hell you move even faster than in the original doom

its a pretty basic shooter in its structure, even with meme kills and weapon upgrades, but thats also kinda the point. it's supposed to be just Doom But It's 2016 IRL

og doom wasnt good anyway, marathon is vastly superior

File: MnciLLi.gif (1MB, 360x192px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 360x192px

>>386367734

>>386367809
>what the hell you move even faster than in the original doom
There's a secret in one of the secret original Doom levels which requires you to quickly run from one point to another before a hidden door closes, but in nuDoom you're just too slow to run that distance in time.

>>386367985
the ported levels are sized wrong, theyre much larger than they used to be (and secrets like that probably just arent even in so that the levels could fit hidden in other geometry)

>>386367653
Gonna be honest, I don't completely understand what points you're making anymore and whether or not it's something I actually disagree with or not.
But I can understand what you're saying about Unreal and;

>the enemies themselves weren't as fast to even pull off complicated team maneuvers
Skaarj are the exact same speed as the player. They are fuckin' fast as hell dude.
>so the level compensated for that lack of maneuverability instead
In the most bullshit ways possible too. The first part of ISV-Kran was the most cancer fight i've ever experienced in an FPS. You have to fight off 6-8? Skaarj Warriors in just two narrow hallways with absolutely fuck-nothing for ammo, and to make matters worse, the area immediately preceding this has three fuck huge bullet sponges that will eat all your ammo if you choose to fight them instead of running past. Did you choose to fight them? No ammo for you; better hit every shot nigga. Playing that moment on fuckin' Godlike difficulty was absolute teeth-clenching frustration.

I notice you bag on DOOM for offering the player mantling as a movement option and it making the game too easy, but Unreal offers dodges to the player and then does absolutely nothing with it. Dodging it basically worthless because it briefly interrupts your sprinting.

>>386369157
Well, I never did say Unreal did a particularly good job at it, even though I liked the relation between level design and AI. I never dodged in Unreal because double-tap inputs for dodging are cancer and I don't think it even did anything. I don't know why people bitch about single-tap dodging in UT4, at least it's useful there whereas the slow-FAST-slow movement of UT wasn't as apparent in the Unreal Gold singleplayer. I've never played Unreal on anything beyond Normal, though even with the joke that is ammo management in nuDoom, it beats having next to no ammo placed in the levels at all. Lots of bullet sponges in tight quarters is indeed bullshit if you can't hit or at least crowd control them.

No , Doom is best what Hale for is of first Generation