Adding accessibility without removing depth

>>386216471
Combo tutorials and more single player content. In most fighting games there's only an arcade mode and a """"training mode"""" and that's as far as it goes in the single player dept and then off you go to get your ass kicked in online.

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>>386216471
After watching that video I'm mostly interested in how that blind guy can play Street Fighter. Good for him.

>>386216471
Can't be done, casuals will never play fighting games because fighting games aren't fun

>>386216471
his voice is aggravating

>>386216673
That's the whole point, though. You literally can't learn anything about fighting games beyond that because it's familiarity, mind games, and strategy. Like anything competitive you're going to get your ass kicked constantly before you get good. You throw a CoD noob into a match with a veteran, he's going to get his ass kicked.

What they need is better multiplayer matchmaking in general.

>>386216841
Most people just don't want that though. Getting your shit kicked in constantly is not fun. Competitive gamers are a minority hence why I suggest more single player content so that devs can still have depth in their games but also give reasons for casual players to pick the game up even after tge online community dies.

>>386216841
Nah, before you can enter strategy and mind games one should be familiar with the controls of the game, master technical stuff like movement and get accustomed to being able to dash, back dash, get comfortable with inputs, understand unique game mechanis and land the stuff they want without whiffing first.

A proper single player mode designed around teaching those would breach the gap between shitters and "actually knows what's up"

>>386216471
It's not accessibility problem.
It's just that they are mediocre games full of DLC and shit.

>>386217371
Dashing is an interesting example. Yes, it's important to know how to dash, and it's not hard. Just double tap, and there are games with extensive tutorials on it. People generally know how to dash, and to dash well.

The issue is WHEN to dash. Dashing is nice but leaves you vulnerable. In SFV, you can even risk CC. Airdashes are a whole new layer on top of that. It's a maneuver that you just have to get used to, you can't really have a tutorial that covers in depth Okizeme and says "Dash in on wakeup to apply meaty pressure" or "Dash back versus grapplers to avoid command grabs." These are things you pick up from experience or extensive study, and has more to do with mindset rather than basic skill.

>>386216471
No, either you can pull off a move or you can't, diluting the game to suit everyone's needs only worsens it. people should want to try and get better instead of getting handouts for everything, getting handouts will only make them lazy.

It's like a job anon, either you can do the job and keep it or you don't and you get fired.

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>>386217308
Not an argument

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>>386217757
Not an argument

>>386216841
>What they need is better multiplayer matchmaking in general.
nope. casuals, even the ones interested in competition, put restrictions on how to play. other people play outside of their narrow view of the game, and theyll get turned off.

no zoning, no mashing, no spamming, no touch of deaths, no poking, no running away, no grabbing. bad players have a way they like to play games, and cant blame themsleves if theyre losing.

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Pokken does it right, IMO.

In terms of core mechanics and fundamentals, it's the same as any other fighting game, in most regards, and the ways it does differ actually add depth, such as it's attack height system being offensive and defensive, IE a attack has a defensive height that allows it to go over or under other moves; and the phase shift system adding phase points as a considerition to bnb and combo choice.

Move inputs are all just single button plus a direction at most, and most combos are relatively short, but there's a ton of tech, optimal combos are a fair bit longer without being marvel/anime tier, and the exceutional gap in terms of spacing and timing is still strict on said optimal combos.

The problem is that people want to be able to jump right in without fucking around in training mode. Devs should implement features that help players learn while they play. Like a visual that shows you what the correct input for the last move you did was, or timing guides for linking moves or performing wake-up reversals, or hint boxes before and after matches that explain what tools your character has or what sort of mistake you made during your match.

>>386217975
Not an argument

>>386218062
problems is people want to be DAIGO in a month.
this shit takes years

>>386216706
This no one will tough it out unless they really want to get good.

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Why do so many fighting game purists think that if a fighting game doesn't have complex, hand obliterating inputs it's shit? If Tekken, SF, GG, or anything else had all the same moves but they were easy as piss to do the game would not be any less deep at all. All the mechanics would be exactly the same, but more people would be able to use them. And to anyone who says it would make the skill gap smaller yeah it would, but not as much as you all like to say. Take a look at Smash (Not saying smash is a fighting game just using it as an example) all the moves in the game are one button and a direction. That's it. A retard can play the game and feel like a god but an actually good player can use the same moves to make minced meat of the casual. Why can't fighting games be that way too?

>>386216471
>Nigger holding white woman
Didn't even bother watching the video, lmao.

>>386219836
Most attacks in Tekken are one button and a direction. Most of its hand breaking inputs are from maximizing your movement potential.

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Why do they need to be made more accessible in the first place?

Can we not even in our wildest dreams imagine for a single second that the problem lies with people wanting everything to just bend the knee before them?
Put some more effort into it.

>But it's just a videogame.
No, it's not that easy to simplify it. People spend months on perfecting their skills in fighting games. Why? Why would they do such a crazy thing? Could it be that there's truly something special about high level fighting games?
So basically, you want what they have without having to put the work into it. Fine. You can have that in another game. But it's never going to feel like THAT.

>>386216471
absolutely atrocious idea

>>386219836
The issue is that there are only so many buttons and combinations of buttons on a gamepad, so inputs necessarily have to get somewhat complex.

Stuff like the old Raging Storm in Fatal Fury/KoF, though, those WERE deliberately bullshit inputs, and they've changed them since. Still "complex" in terms of number of inputs, but not finger-tying pretzel bullshit, either.

Ultimately, it's something you've got to devote time to in order to get. While it's entirely possible to dabble in fighting games, to actually play well against others, even in the simplest fighting game imaginable (for instance, DiveKick), it takes time and practice.

>>386219836
>doesn't have complex, hand obliterating inputs
let me give you a stupid comparison for this

>child goes to parent and asks
>dad, why is driving a car so difficult? Why do I have to handle 3 pedals and 6 gears simultaneously? It's way too hard
>Well then let's make fully automated self-driving cars
>Hey great I can drive a car! But it's so boring!
see what I'm getting at?

>>386220650
this, there's already plenty of information out there both in game and online relating to how to play a fighting game, most people who complain about stuff like this just want to win without working for it. fighting games are supposed to be hard. like, really hard.

>>386216471
That video seems to go against the other one on dumbing down SFV

A feel like a lot of the FGC is way too scared to actually rip into these purposefully easy games, when really none are getting anyone into fighting games anyway. FS has a lot of flaws, some like only 3 normals are a result of the control scheme and how easy it is to accidentally yomi counter when throws also have super far range.

If an easier game does get people into fighting games this or RT aren't going to be the ones to do it.

>>386220852
>fighting games are supposed to be hard. like, really hard.
yeah but you see, people just don't get this one little thing at all:
they're hard, but it's WORTH it

Fighting games were never meant to be accessible.

Trying to make them more accessible just kills them in the end because you won't gain many new players and you start to alienate the original fanbase.

>>386216673
>Combo tutorials and more single player content.
Then why are KI and GG dead while SFV and Tekken the biggest games right now?

Casuals hate tutorials and having to learn strategy.

>>386221053
GG is "dead" because it's anime and that will never ever appeal to a wide audience.

KI is probably dead just due to how much more popular the NRS games ended up being.

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>>386219917
Not an argument

>>386220849
Awful metaphor

>How do I shift into reverse?
>Do a double quarter circle back strong punch with the gear stick

The controls are still there, they're just easier to use

>>386216471
>let's make things easy for people who don't want to put in the actual work!!!
>let's just give out these diplomas for these technical courses to people who just attended the class!!!
Nowhere in the real world can you become good at something with depth without putting in the time to learn and practice it. These attempts to dumb-down *cough* I mean, make games "accessible" is so anti-thetical to the human condition that in the end, it only hurts a game more than it improves it.

The problem is people have this idea that if there weren't combos they would be good.

I think a lot of casuals assume they are so high IQ that if it weren't for those pesky motion their superior intellect would destroy everyone. They have this idea that it is all incredibly complex decisions done in seconds, when really it is just pattern recognition knowing the way to bait and punish it.

When really complex combos actually help them. In Fantasy strike that not-millia will fuck up anyone who doesn't know her well cause her shit is super easy but powerful. But when learning SF4 no one at low level would do hard E.Ryu shit on you cause they can't.

Op you are describing Tekken

>>386221310
See, you're approaching it from the wrong perspective
you already know how to drive, so it's a no-brainer for you to shift into reverse

try explaining that to your 8 year old though
the players trying to get into fighting games, they are 8 years old, metaphorically speaking

>>386221397
I think I could explain to an 8 year old that pointing the stick towards R means reverse

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>>386221418
Not an argument

>>386216471
Honestly the best way to get casuals on board is to throw out the rules of how the game is played. Guilty Gear has depth because it puts a ton of time and effort into twisting the rules of the already established Street Fighter formula. Fighting game concepts and mechanics are two different things. Things like spacing, mix ups, reads, and conditioning are universal and can be found in every fighting game. Smash and Street Fighter are mechanically different, but are conceptually similar. I think fantasy strike has some good ideas and succeeds in its efforts to make execution easier, but it won't solve the problem of things people already hate in 2D fighters. It already looks like the meta will revolve around mix up vortex characters that can keep themselves in an advantageous state off of one hit. Big money on someone like Sonicfox dominating any sort of scene it develops. I think ARMS did a great job of reproducing the concepts in a completely fresh way, but if we somehow live in a world where it gets sequels I guarantee that people will be complaining that it's too difficult to get into by the third game.

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>Genre defined by the amount of hard work and practice it takes to get good
>Dumb down every modern fighting game so that anyone could be a top player
>Wonder why the genre is on the decline

There was a mortal Kombat game back on the Xbox that had an open world story mode which taught you how to combo properly and shit as quests, more games should do that

The FGC is founded on elitism. Anything which tries to reduces complexity and bring new players into the genre is seen as bad because people believe that deliberate complexity is needed to keep out people who won't play seriously.

What ends up happening is that people pick up a fighting game, find out that it takes weeks/months of study and practice to get to a level where they can even control their chosen character properly, let alone compete with others, and drop the game. They rightfully assess the investment as a waste of time when there are games which are just as fun and competitive but with rules that aren't so retarded.

Even if the added complexity does translate to more depth, it effectively blocks new players from the genre which is something that companies now realize they want to avoid since they depend on new players to sell games. Even if you have a player who is interested in the genre, there's no good place for them to start that doesn't immediately toss them in the deep end of bullshit fighting game jargon and so they're more likely to just give up rather than try to master simple games and then progress onto more complicated ones.

>>386221542
If you make a game in a completely different way then nobody will consider it a fighter at all, look at smash

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>there are people that actually find fighting game inputs difficult
Like it literally shows you the motion. How can you not understand how to execute it? If you're having difficulty it means you're doing something wrong and need to spend time practicing. What's there to streamline? There aren't even enough buttons to streamline things further.

>>386221339
this, knowing combos doesn't help you have good block strings or avoid resets or mixups or even have any decent neutral at all
if anything, you'd just be more eager to jump in

>>386221503
that's telling him "do a fireball, it's the P button"
but the input is actually
>kick the clutch
>move gear right down/right up depending on car
>slowly release clutch
>slowly kick the gas in the correct timeframe
it's really not that bad of a metaphor

but that's what you're trying to explain to new fighting game players
there's just nothing you can do, they need to suck it up and keep practicing until they can do it, just like anyone would driving a car for the first time

>>386218062
They do have that. Its called going to locals and putting in time with the game. People expect to learn the game via online play which is the worse thing in the world.

Easy. We go back to the days of Karate.

You get a roster of different looking characters but they all start in a white Gi with white belts.

Every character has the same move set. No specials.

The game play revolves on which player can out fight the other with the same move sets. Accurate hit boxes, accurate blocks and dodges.

As you get better you start unlocking cosmetics and as you rank up you get different belt colors to distinguish the level of the fighter.

But even a white belt should be able to defeat a black belt with the proper knowledge of counters.

Fighting games as they are today make it so some characters have easier special executions or how some characters out perform every other toon on the roster.

>>386219836
>had all the same moves but they were easy as piss to do the game would not be any less deep at all
A flash kick or sonic boom requires charge, to do this it mean you can no longer move forward but are rewarded with a powerful move. This means it is allowed to be powerful

>but in the video the gear guy
Yes, the problem with that is you are given less choice. Charge partitioning allows you to store a charge quicker, this can result in combos that don't seem possible but are. Even in games that lack it players knowing when they can start charging and when it ends allows a divide in players and something to improve at so knowledge of the game is rewarded.

Certain moves need to be hampered in some way but it is best to do it while still giving the player more control and not just timers.

https://shoryuken.com/2012/07/16/lost-strategy-series-the-role-of-execution-by-james-chen/

>>386221752
Online play is good enough if you do it right. See Fightcade. It will never be quite as good as offline play but it's not so poor that it would form bad habits.

Focus on local play just isn't as viable as it used to be. Arcades have died out and you're fucked if you try to play something competitively but don't live near a major city.

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RISING THUNDER HAD IT PERFECT

P E R F E C T

EASY 1 BUTTON SPECIALS FOR THE BABBIES
DEEP ENOUGH COMBO SYSTEM AND NEUTRAL FOR THE PEOPLE THAT KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING

FUCK RIOT

>>386221802
you know that's actually not a bad idea I think
>have them only fight with heavy normals first
>add medium normals
>add light normals
>add one special
>add the other special
>add supers

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>>386221646
Not an argument

>>386221939
lmao, no man
the kinda guys who played RT quickly realized that making inputs easier doesn't make better opponents go easier on you

Do they actually think anyone will pick up these baby game? Just look at the fig campaign
https://www.fig.co/campaigns/fantasy-strike

If someone is mad about combos it is because they fuck up and feel like shit, telling them to go to weenie hut jr won't help that. They want to play the game all the pros do and be able to do the complex shit they can but lack the dedication.

>>386221661
Enough people recognize its similarities to be at EVO. You can't suddenly make Street Fighter exciting and new again. We aren't in the nineties anymore. Fighting games are no longer a fad, you can only stimulate growth by making solid games that also appeal to the average consumer.

>>386222028
>They want to play the game all the pros do and be able to do the complex shit they can but lack the dedication.
Then maybe that's just something they won't get.

I want to be rich as fuck and have expensive cars like the rich people do man. But I don't wanna work for it.

>>386221053
Mortal Kombat is more popular than both Tekken and SFV in the casual crowd, thanks in due to its story mode.

GG is a niche anime game and KI is a literally who MK-wannabe.

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Thank God for David Sirlin!

"Skeptics at these shows (and there were only like 2 or 3 at each) would say “isn’t there just nothing to this?” Then we offer to crush them really hard, either with me playing them or one of my staff. In all cases, we crush them easily, as in more than 10-0. You might think people get salty from that, but the skeptics were all very excited. It’s exactly what they wanted to see, that there is a level of play far above what they were aware of.

Our highest praise, in my opinion, came from such a person who, after getting crushed really badly, trained at our booth for hours and hours. Then he challenged me again, and I crushed him yet again (slightly less badly, he at least won a few rounds, but not games). Then he said the first time he faced me, he lost a lot of times because he was unaware of this move or that, of this property of a move, or something. But the second time, he said he had full knowledge of all that stuff, and “he was simply outplayed.” That’s exactly what he hoped for: that a higher level of play was possible, so there’s a skill to it."

https://www.kotaku.com.au/2017/05/fantasy-strike-is-bringing-simplicity-to-fighting-esports/

I hope Dragonball Fighters Z is going to get some more people involved just for Dragonball, and then they stick for the fighting.

Really looking forward to it.

>>386222289
I'm optimistic but not getting my hopes up. ASW haven't become gods just because Capcom have shit the bed. Their games have had issues in the past too.

>>386221939
The special inputs isn't why bad players lose

RT never got to get its foot in the door because once you remove inputs people still got fucked by everything else

Fantasy Strike had to simplify their shit even further to at least try to fix this shit but it's not going to, because execution isn't why people lose

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>>386222017
Not an argument

>>386221679
I'm not a fan of the Z for shoryuken. It should either be in the down-right position pointing in that direction or pointing back up toward the right. A stick doesn't make that square shape naturally its more in the corner.

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These games are all copying the wrong thing, SC2 does it right. The game doesn't feel like it lacks options but it is easier to play. Combos are short and mostly easy to learn but emphasis is put on other aspects. If anything you could have slight;y more combo complexity and still be very casual. Plus it has robust single player to get people in the door.

Fantasy Strike feels like it dumbs down the genre, Soul Calibur was a side step

>>386219836
there would be an unbelievable amount of broken option selects if Street Fighter or any other franchise didnt have command inputs.

>>386221615
>Reaching this far to justify your shittiness
If people fucking suck thats their business. SFV is accesible as fuck and people still shit on it for being braindead yet casuals still complain that motions are asinine and hard. Truth is both sides should shut the fuck up and let people that actually play/want to get better do it in peace.

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>>386222521
Not an argument

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>>386222735
Not an argument

>>386222289
>>386222414
Pokemon is an even bigger IP then dragon ball yet once general nintendo fans and smash people realized Pokken was an actual fighting game most of them bailed.

I expect the same to happen with DBFZ, but DBFZ has the advantage in that the FGC is already sold on it and will support it, wheras Pokken didn't have the FGC support either on top of a lack of casual support, hence it's small scene. (though it's not as small as people think)

>>386222289
I think the same issues will happen again where it will have a lot of activity at first, but people that put much more time into it will pull ahead. Even with accessible inputs, there are still other aspects that lesser skilled players will have a tough time overcoming such as mind games and such. Also with the franchise being DBZ, there's a chance that people may complain that it isn't like the Tenkaichi games where you can mash in a fast moving battle or clash of beam attacks.
I don't mean to sound pessimistic though. I do look forward to seeing what comes from it.

>>386223301
Pokkenfag, how many times do you have to be told that no one liked your game and that is why it died?

>Pokken didn't have the FGC support
No it had many top players give it a try, they didn't like it and left.

Here is why DBFZ will do well, people like it

>>386222686
If you take something that's been complicated for decades and then simplify it of course the existing (or remaining) players are going to complain about it being dumbed down. It doesn't actually matter if the changes actually make it any easier to start playing, ANY simplification is seen as heresy. 1 frame links become 2 frame links? Fucking casuals!

>Lousy casuals just want a game where they can instantly compete at a top level!
No, they want a game that doesn't take weeks or months of practice to get to the fun part, where you can actually make informed gameplay decisions and do anything except get your ass handed to you. It only takes hours at best to understand the rules of basketball or chess and start playing properly, but you still need years of practice before you have any hope of beating an NBA player or chess grandmaster.
>Casuals just lack dedication, it's SUPPOSED to be miserable for ages while you git gud!
People play games to have fun and if it's not fun then they stop playing. If that triggers you then fine, but it shouldn't be that hard to understand why companies are losing faith in games with high barriers to entry.

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>>386223135
kill yourself

>>386223523
nigger what are you even talking about, go take your tripfag drama somewhere else

The game already has a massive 3 frame buffer

Also lmao at hitting a combo as late as possible, wtf, are you retarded

Sfv was already made for a mongoloid like you

>>386223665
You make the same argument every thread, isn't hard to tell

>>386223310
Never stopped SF4 from being very popular

>there's a chance that people may complain that it isn't like the Tenkaichi games
It is a minority who think those games are any good, even of that I've seen channels dedicated to those games who are super into fighters already

Special moves are easy compared to the other stuff in the game like memorising and pulling off combo's, hitconfirming, knowing the different matchup and other stuff you learn with experience.
It's like complaining that learning Japanese is hard because you can't memorise the Kana.
What fighting games need to do is to make the player feel like getting stronger is worth their time instead of dumbing the games down. And they also need to make this process fun and entertaining.

>>386216471
Imput leniency but personalizable combos.
Stock Gauge System instead of rounds and heavy damaging moves but lenient and fast-recovering white health.
Cartoony art-style ala Overwatch/LoL instead of anime waifus and stereotypes.
Character customization, both aesthetic and in choice of ISMs, supers, etc ala Alpha/SFIII
Bots that learn the fighting style of the character's #1 ranked player so that people playing single player modes don't develop AI-exploiting bad habits.

Both casuals and "pros" will stay longer if they feel they can play the game the way they want to play it. The only people who adapt to a game with more don'ts than dos are autists like the Melee crowd.

>>386221053
KI isn't dead, it's as played as it's XBONE EXCLUSIVE status allows it to be.
GG is dead because westerners don't like weird anime fetishes in their games. The kind of people who play GG are the kind of people the rest of the FGC pro and casual alike used to bully in highschool.

>>386222149
>motions are a block to tactics and decision making
>letting go of the controls to tech grab
Also quit spamming this fucking copypasta you do this every thread faggot

>>386216471
Make combo timing less strict
Get rid of shoryuken and 360 inputs
Focus less on super long combos

>>386226035
We had that game, it was called MK: Argmageddon.

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im a casual player and i play some fgs here and there honestly learning motions is honestly the most easiest thing in fighting games it takes a bit of practice but its not that hard and its really just combos that are kinda hard and take a but of time. a big problem for casuals getting into fighting games is shit single player,tutorials and all these fucking shitty business practices, also the fact that the modern consumer has the attention-span of a walnut and dont take the time to practice for even a day

tldr: if you cant do basic motions go back to smash or fucking some other casual game like overwatch also casuals are never going to want to play a casual fighting game on a marketing level this shits not getting off the ground

>>386222149
BASED
CRAPCOM ON SUICIDE WATCH

>>386216673
>Combo tutorials and more single player content.
It's like you haven't played a fighting game in 20 years

>>386219836
>GG
>complex inputs
Nigga the hardest part about GG are not the inputs but the execution. Your biggest enemy are animation locks.

>>386221820
>A flash kick or sonic boom requires charge
Except you can Sonic Boom out of a dash since you can charge inbetween attacks or dashes.

>>386223621
STOP
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP
I'LL KILL HIM FOR YOU JUST STOP FUCKING REPLYING ALREADY

>>386227959
That depends on the game, character and charge time. Guile in SFV for example can't keep dashing and booming.

You also support my second point here, charge allows a good player to exploit it in interesting ways which requires knowledge and practice.

>>386223576
>No, they want a game that doesn't take weeks or months of practice to get to the fun part, where you can actually make informed gameplay decisions and do anything except get your ass handed to you. It only takes hours at best to understand the rules of basketball or chess and start playing properly, but you still need years of practice before you have any hope of beating an NBA player or chess grandmaster.

The funny thing is the most profitable games and most casualized ESPORTS games take awhile to actually get used to. Casuals made stuff like WoW and Dota become as profitable as they are, and they take awhile due to how the game is set up or have a bunch of shit to memorize, despite both games not being all that hard to play, while having elitism that makes fighting games in shady ass arcades look pleasant and friendly.


People don't play much fighting games because they want to blame their failures on someone else. Can't do that in fighting.

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>people unironically wanting a game that consists only of BB's Style Option
>Press A to Inferno Divider
>Press B to Carnage Scissors

>>386223576
>to get to the fun part, where you can actually make informed gameplay decisions
You can literally do this from the very beginning

Does that Ken keep DPing, well you see he is open after so can hit him. Oh he keeps jumping, well one of my normals hits in the air so I can punish him. He keeps using a big slow sweep, well I can hit that on whiff.

>B-B-BUT I CAN'T DO THE BIG COMBO TO PUNISH
You don't have to, your opponent isn't either. What this comes down to is people want to do the big flashy cool thing with no effort.

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To anyone who thinks FG need simpler inputs

Did any of you play this?

>>386229143
yes
and it was hilarious

>>386221607
It's not on the decline though. Today we have quite a few games to choose from and it's far easier than ever before to obtain information, learn, and play with people.

>>386222143
>MK wannabe
How could a person be this wrong?

>>386229143
I loved it, too bad I lost it with my first 3DS while traveling.

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>modern fighting games

>>386229353
i know, can't believe they put in a huge slut

Stylish mode in Guilty Gear and Blazblue.

>>386222447
I had fun with Rising Thunder and the two day Fantasy Strike. Got my ass annihilated after ranking up in Rising Thunder but I felt like I could play the actual game instead of just feeling like I'm controlling some weird robot that requires inputting weird commands before he'll do stuff I want.

>>386223576
Chess is fun when you're shit and playing someone who is shit. SFIV is fucking suffering.

Meanwhile you can play Smash, Mortal Combat, Injustice, and Pokken and have a blast.

Casualizing fighting games will be the death of fighting games. Contrary to popular belief the reason fighting games aren't so popular isn't because of their hard inputs or complex combos, they are unpopular because fighting games show you how shit you actually are.

It's only you vs. the other guy, there's no team no nothing. Just you, if you lose it's your fault, if you win it's because you outplayed the other, you can't blame it on other people if you lose since you have only yourself to blame. If you get completely destroyed it's also your fault and that's the part that makes or breaks someone that is trying to get into them, the majority let hard losses get to them instead of looking past them which ends in a lot of people quitting fighting games. What you need is basically an iron will willing to improve himself,

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Inputs are not what makes Fighting Games Hard.
Blazblue has harder inputs than GG, Virtua Fighter inputs are pretty simple yet both of those games are by far the hardest Games to master of their kind.

The difficulty comes from how many situations the game expects you to know different responses to.
If you land a hit in BB you can generally combo into your bread and butter and since combos are incredibly long hit confirming is pretty easy.
In GG if you land a hit you have to be aware where on the screen the enemy is, you have to know withing the first hit if it was a counter hit, you have to be aware of the tension gauge, you have to be aware of how far on the screen you are and if your Pilebunker will carry the opponent to the corner for example.

Shit like Burst Throwing is an easy input: You Roman Cancel > Jump > Grab but actually getting one is much more impressive than landing a Zato Combo you practiced for a couple days.

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>its another lets make a shit easy fighting game and try to market to some company to pick it up

not falling for this one shoah

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>>386229893
>Tension Gauge

I mean RISC Level and by Position of the enemy I meant whether he's in range for a jump cancel followup.

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>>386223135
Not an argument

>>386216471
>add Just Frames to SF
No thanks. Just adjust the input leniency on certain buttons to be tighter than others and be done with it:

Do people still find inputs hard? I've been doing them ever since I was little when my cousin showed me how. Maybe people who can't do the inputs should have their cousin or older sibling teach them?

>>386230492
It is people who never even attempted to get over the first hurdle, which is why their opinion on how to make a fighting game is so irrelevant.

Same as when you don't want to do something so make up a bullshit excuse

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>>386216471
>How would you make fighting games more accessible without removing depth, /v/?

Remove the need to all the time consuming shit (spending countless hours on grinding combos and committing them to muscle memory is not fun and if you stop playing for even a short while you're fucked, also online play fucks up combos).

Focus on making non-trash tutorials.

Focus more on making non shit SP content. The idea that SP is unimportant is moronic if your goal is to make people give a shit.

Make newcomers feel like they get something even when they lose (getting "fight money" for things like loot chests that they can open for cosmetic drops and crafting or something).

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>>386230492
It's always the DP that 90% of people complain about when people talk about hard inputs. and it mainly stems from the fact that people don't know shortcuts like 6236.

>>386219836
>If Tekken, SF, GG, or anything else had all the same moves but they were easy as piss to do the game would not be any less deep at all. All the mechanics would be exactly the same, but more people would be able to use them
What is SFxT and CvS2:EO?

Naw it would definitely change the meta. You forget inputting the the move acts as a variable startup so you can't just hit SRK on reaction during neutral, but can do it super fast on wake up or when you buffer during blockstun. Making it one button would make things either too fast on neutral or too slow on buffer and would kill a huge dynamic of traditional fighters. You want simple moves make a subset of distinct characters that have to suffer the flaws of having simple inputs in a balanced fighting game. Ed is fine, if every fighting game had 10-20% of their cast like Ed I wouldn't care as long as they weren't jank like CvS2 EO.

>>386230681
Your basically describing Guilty Gear

Guilty Gear has the best tutorial (and missions) for fighting games that exists. Has currency that you can buy shit like System Voice/Avatars/BGM/Ingame Figurines with. Has a story mode and you get money for losing and winning.

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>Wanting to make FG even more accessible than they are now
This is how you spot underaged casual babies who never played FG.
They are extremely accessible nowadays, on everything, the execution has been severely dumbed down so that the game doesn't punish you on your shitty inprecise inputs and parkinson timing like, say, SF@ series, which required nearly flawless execution.
The commands themselves have been extremely simplified and uniformed around the board, try go playing something like early Art of Fighting or really most SNKs fighters from the 90's, now those are games that demolish your wrists and then try to go back to capcom fighters, nowadays you have babby shit that monkeys can do, coupled with the super relaxed timing conditions mentioned above.
Then you have extensive tutorials that teach you everything you'll ever need down to even jargon for technical terms whereas back in the days you'll have to go to the arcades and learn things the hard way, and if you bought a game on consoles the manuals would be a glorified movelist you could sometimes find in the game(and often you wouldn't even find a ingame movelist).
Then you have the new Stylish mode set philosophy that more and more games are adopting for people who are too dumb for even this.

The problem isn't accessibility you know, the problem is that people like you OP, who complain about fucking anything, are shitters who can't be bothered to put an ounce of effort into anything and blame everything but your lack of skill and dedication on your loss, you and your kind are DSP spawns, you do not understand that inputs are there for a huge reason that is not only balancing the cast but BASIC fucking gameplay, even if they somehow made the game play themselves on two buttons you'd still blame the games because you're a whiny bitch who wants to win with no effort, fighting games and competitive games with at least a bit of depth aren't for you, stop trying to ruin the genre for everyone who likes it.

>>386230681
Speak for yourself, nigga. Some of the most fun I've had in a long time was figuring out Miguel's shit in T7.

>>386229353
I remember following during her release and a bunch of people were bitching that she had a bunch of 360s. Did they change her inputs during loketests or did I hear them wrong?

>>386231035
>Speak for yourself, nigga. Some of the most fun I've had in a long time was figuring out Miguel's shit in T7.

Good thing this is not about you, but making fighting games more accessible.

>>386230862
>This is how you spot underaged casual babies who never played FG.

This is how you spot the kind of players that make fighting games inaccessible to newcomers.

Before you saying anything stupid. I played fighting games more seriously for 10 years before I started with MMA instead.

>>386216471
>non-disabled
>black guy in the picture
Um...............................................................

>>386231118
Taking out complex combos does nothing for accessibility. You would know this if you played RT or SFV at all. Do not assume that everyone hates hitting the lab.

Please don't ruin the core of fighting games. I don't want the genre to turn into LoL or Overwatch. SFV already has major flaws thanks to it trying to be accessible, but it's still not at the level of brain numbing stupidity that other genres have suffered.

>>386219836
if you find a hadouken motion to be a "complex input" you just need to stop playing games.

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If I may be just honest, playing fighting games online, especially with playing random players each time, simply aren't as fun as playing next to your competitor, especially with friend, not the mention the imput lag when the each frame matters.
Learning them and getting better along with your friends are the core part of the genre.
The reason they are dying is because the arcades are long gone in most of the countries aside from japan.
You could say that "the same thing could be said other couch co-op heavy games like racing games or sports games like FIFA" but these games have very low skill barrier compared to fighting games and both of these have hidden factors behind the scenes to help/against the players like rubber banding AI or engine cheating to help losing team so you can give the controllers to a skilled player and a player that played it for a few dozens of hours and realistically expect the newbie to win every now and then, unlike fighers where everything is set and you are alone against skilled player with zero help of AI. Not to mention that they shifted their emphasis on online play and don't require that much precise timing.

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>>386231283
He's literally the mascot for Divekick, a two button fighting game.

>>386231293
>Do not assume that everyone hates hitting the lab.

Retard, the problem is how most people think this is boring and too time consuming. What you personally think is irrelevant.

>>386216471
>I dare you to find anything wrong with this

It's complex AS FUCK, which is kind of what we're trying to move away from here.

Furthermore it's entirely invisible mechanics, as in something you need to have background knowledge of that's not visually in the game

>>386231448
Have you considered that FG don't need to be more accessible? The reason why SF5 was because it was a casual piece of shit.

>>386231448
The real problem here is how you assume most people hate exploring and learning the game they bought. Stop deflecting by pretending this only applies to me, sperg.

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>>386230862
this,im tired of casuals trying to bogdown competitive games
>>386231196
fuck off were full

>>386231078
I don't know why you would ever give a non grapper MORE than one 360

>>386221053
Ki is hardly seen simply because it's an Xbox one windows 10 exclusive not because it's bad.

>>386231448
>how most people think this is boring and too time consuming
So what we have to do is change how people see it, make the training (or just show how it can be) fun and entertaining. There is enjoyment and satisfaction to get out of training.

I always think a trails mode where you can upload you own combos would be fun, especially if you could then challenge friends. A more involved tutorial also helps, especially if both earn you cosmetics or in game currency.

>>386216471
>Adding accessibility

Here's where you went wrong.

>>386231196
>I started with MMA

I bet you get your ass beat as much as you do in SF.

Fighting games are sort of like if Dark Souls had no single player content, and was just about fighting another player in an empty arena.

In that it starts off very inaccessible for new players, with an angry elitist community that doesn't want to help, so there's basically nothing to do for a new player but get shit on for dozens of hours without any idea why, and hoping you eventually start to understand. Then once you understand why you're getting shit on, spend even more time than that actually improving to the point you might win yourself.

Don't get me wrong, I can appreciate a game maintaining certain standards instead of aiming for mass mainstream appeal, but if you refuse to ever do anything at all about it don't be surprised when your genre is dying.

>>386231738
Bullet has a 1080 move
but it's really hard to pull off since the requirements are too high and nobody fucking plays Bullet

>>386231196
>I played fighting games more seriously for 10 years
That's nothing son, you were already born in the time of simplified FGs so you have nothing to say on the matter, and in fact you don't even try to bring any argument to the table, because you have none.
See how many people nowadays and even in this thread advocate for removing combos or one button specials, shitters want to turn FG in glorified rhythm games because they are that lazy and think you can become FAB or Dogura in a month by playing casually.
This is the same thing that happened with arena shooters, one thing is making games more accessible, another is dumbing them down and removing key design features of a genre to appease whiners who are not bothered to hit the lab and accept a few losses.
Fighting games, especially nowadays, aren't hard to get into, they're moderately complex games that requires effort and dedication to learn, same thing as learning how to draw, play an instrument or learn a language, only lazy and ignorant people complain about FG being inaccessible nowadays.

"Why not make all FPS have aimbots that even shoot for you so you just need to move around and jump", that's the argument these people are pushing, and they'd still complain that the games are too "obscure" and inaccessible.

Let me tell you something, even if you check and memorize all the frame data, damage calculation and character stats you won't get better because you know the numbers in the game and all the rulesets, people think top EVO players are some kind of quantum machines who work on numbers, they're not, they're people with really good fundamentals and tons of actual experience and dedication, and had it for decades even when all this info wasn't accessible, shitters think that more info+dumbed down gameplay=the better I play the game, fact is they're a bunch of lazy underachievers who want to win without putting out some effort, just because they want some quick satisfaction and ego-stroking.

>>386231983
While it is a 1080 and that will make all the retards go "OOOOOH WOW SO MANY" it's not hard to execute at all.

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>>386231973
>with an angry elitist community that doesn't want to help
It has literally never been easier to find guides and help on everything, even dead old games.

>nothing to do for a new player but get shit on for dozens of hours
They won't, cause you go against other shit players. Even for a dead anime game join a discord and there will be other new players. Plus they have single player

>surprised when your genre is dying.
Fuck loads of new games, scenes are growing and even SFV somehow managed to get 5 million views at Evo this year
https://capcomprotour.com/street-fighter-v-evo-2017-finals-viewership-ever-fgc-event/

>>386230256
Kill yourself

>>386231973
If a person decides to button mash because they are too lazy to understand the mechanics, then they deserve to be bodied

You know what'd make FGs even more difficult?

Mandating that all controllers have sharp metal spikes that stab your fingers attached to all the buttons and the stick.

If you don't think that's a good idea you're a huge casual baby scrub.

>>386216706
This desu.

>>386232163
>>386232276
Don't argue with the retards.

>>386232163
there are people learning and playing melty blood to this day

I've always hated combos and enjoyed playing Rising Thunder until getting to where I need to input a piano routine to do equal damage.

What game fighter should I try to get into.

>>386221053
>4 hours ago
im still replying.

KI is dead because its locked on xbox one and windows 10 through their god awful store. KI is coming to steam soon and the community assumes this means we'll get it on windows 7 as well. our community will still be small but we'll pick up a lot of fans from the steam release.

>>386232350
Exactly, there are already games for complete idiots so no one has an excuse.

>>386219836
The problem isn't simple moves, Rising Thunder had three special buttons on cooldowns and casuals still bitched. If people don't want to learn, they won't learn. Period.

>>386232371
smash 4

>>386232071
>"Why not make all FPS have aimbots that even shoot for you so you just need to move around and jump", that's the argument these people are pushing
Lets take a look at overwatch. You won't spazz out at me for using that as an example just because it's a very well known casual modern arena shooter will you?

It doesn't aimbot or autoshoot. It's a normal FPS you still have to aim and shoot, and you have special skills with cooldowns assigned to buttons. You still have to aim your special abilities, still have to pay attention to everything happening in the game and use them at the right time and in the right place. Just because it only takes 1 button press does not mean it's aimbotting.

But according to you, that's not good enough. Pressing E to shoot your super rocket or whatever is the game playing itself apparently. It should instead require you to spin your camera around in a 720 circle and press E F jumping P crouching-E G E to shoot your rocket, or else the game is "shooting for you".

>>386232952
But shooters always have other aspects to replace that difficulty lost. Bigger maps, lots of paths, free movement, multiple players etc. Games like Fantasy Strike don't

If dumbing down inputs happens difficulty has to come in else where to replace it so the game still works. So if the aim is make a game easier for casuals then that doesn't work.

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>>386232952
>Seriously and unironically using FG design in a FPS context
You have the mental capacity of a peanut, no wonder you think Overwatch is a good arena shooter.
>But according to you, that's not good enough.
An arena shooter with infinite ammo has already failed at a basic design level, let alone the garbage balancing and character design.

>>386231575
>Have you considered that FG don't need to be more accessible?

That was neither the question nor are you trying to actually solve a problem.
Fighting games directly benefit from having more players and one of the problems with the genre is how difficult it is for newcomers to get into a fighting game. You plugging your ears while singing that it isn't a problem is incredibly immature.

>>386231614
>The real problem here is how you assume most people hate exploring and learning the game they bought.

So you think most people like spending tens if not hundreds of hours grinding combos? If so you're massively ignorant.

>>386231834
>So what we have to do is change how people see it, make the training (or just show how it can be) fun and entertaining.

How in the fuck can you make grinding frame strict and input heavy combos fun for tens if not hundreds of hours for non-spergs?

During my time of playing fighting games and trying to get new people into the genre 99% of them just wanted to play the game, not sit and practice for ages, especially the ones with jobs.

>>386232071
>That's nothing son

And now you already missed the point I made while typing out a wall of text, well done.

>>386233278
And fighting games have much faster gameplay, larger movesets for characters and stuff.

If you're fighting someone and see them start one of their special moves, and you know that if you use one of your special moves at certain range and at a very specific time in their animation to counter them, is it really all that important whether you can execute your own move with 1 button vs 3 buttons and a motion?

>>386232163
>It has literally never been easier to find guides and help on everything, even dead old games.

Even if that was true that still doesn't make fighting games accessible, especially the communities. In fact I'd say that fighting game mentality is generally too aggressive nowadays and it's reflected in all levels of play.
The only genre with more rage and upset players is the MOBA genre.

>>386233516
>How
Well you could have read the rest of my post, plus if they remove inputs you will just go reeee what sperg wants to learn the piano to play a game

You sound like this guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzkCmidjeHc

>>386233516

>So you think most people like spending tens if not hundreds of hours grinding combos? If so you're massively ignorant.


Yes they do, i know because i actually play fighting games and i like to train combos aswell, half the fun is understanding what the fuck you are doing or discovering new things.

>>386233516
>Fighting games directly benefit from having more players and one of the problems with the genre is how difficult it is for newcomers to get into a fighting game.
More players is fine, sacrificing complexity in favor of more players is not.

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>its another casuals complain about X thread
no one wants to play your failing casual kikestarter game

>>386233593
>faster gameplay, larger movesets for characters and stuff.
And none of that hampers doing a quarter circle

>is it really all that important
Yes. lets say you are Guile in your new game Shit Fighter 1 button edition, I can now flash kick at a buttons press and beat out loads of shit. This move is invincible, I can also boom when I want. This resulted in this pile of shit >>386229143 . To counter act that you either take away utility or control which is bad.

This is the same for everything, an SPD would be way too good as a button press thus it would have to lose range or speed. You just limit the game more cause you refuse to get good.

>>386233668
>The only genre with more rage and upset players is the MOBA genre.
Is that why every online game is consonantly going on about attempting to reduce toxic player behavior? Or if you type in any game plus rage to youtube thousands of videos appear?

>>386233679
>Well you could have read the rest of my post

I did but I disregarded it because it won't even remotely make it fun. You think trials (which generally focus on difficulty over practicality) and tutorials make legit grinding fun?

>You sound like this guy

Then you're retarded and missing my point entirely. The barrier of entry is far too high and the time required to even start playing the game normally is too high. I'm talking the average player here.

You on the other hand sound like MOBA players that think 1h matches is fine and spending 3h of their spare time every day on a MOBA isn't that much. For people with jobs that is a huge amount of time. At my last job I had around 3h of spare time at max (minus time it takes for travel, food, etc) every weekday and that is if I don't spend any of that time with family, friends, my gf, watching a show, playing other games, etc.

Unlike many other games fighting games require players to consistently be playing and practicing, this means that huge amounts of time is dedicated to them. If people have to spend even just 1 hour every (other) weekday on just sitting in training mode for months while when they play online they get shat on they will eventually drop the game.

That's the reality of the situation many of you fail to grasp.

>>386216471
>retarded input shortcuts like df, df + P = dp
Am I the only one who thinks that doing that is worse than just doing the actual motion? Maybe I've just been playing fighting games for too long but I'm sure I'd botch that kind of input more than the normal one.

>>386221053
Those games are "dead" because they are not Street Fighter or Tekken.
SF and Tekken are not big because they are good, they are big because they have been big before.

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>>386216673
>Combo tutorials and more single player content.
UNIST has the best tutorials (general and character specific) to date and I guarantee you no one is going to give half a fuck about the game when it comes out in English.

>>386234098
Have you considered to not play fighting games? Fighting Games are pandering to a niché of players like Simulation Games do or Grand Strategy Games, why do fighting games need to be casualized because you are not capable of investing the time because of work?

Controls should be as simple as possible.

Fighting should be focused on how you fight.

>>386233975
I don't think anyone is calling for inputs to be overhauled with no other accommodating balance changes to the game.

Hell I'm pretty sure most people don't even want pre-existing games changed. But you could built a new fighter that maintains the mindgames, predictions and strategy of fighting games without requiring dozens of hours of practice just to be able to do your characters moves in the first place. But I don't think you're in the mood to be reasonable right now, you just want to yell at people that they're stupid and suck, so take what I say as you will.

>>386234334
Fighting game inputs are as simple as they should ever get. You rarely get stupid complex inputs nowadays so the worst you ever get is charge inputs or shit like qcf hcb which if you can't do those I'm sorry, you're retarded.

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>>386234334
>pressing 236 or 214 or 63214 is hard

>>386233516
>And now you already missed the point I made
You made no point, all you've said is "hurr i played fightan since 10 years", which means absolutely nothing.
Get the fuck out, no one cares about people who don't want to put some time in a hobby, if you really like something you'll find the time and energy to get better at it like any normal person, but noooooooooo it's the game's fault if I get bodied by people who actually put more effort than me in a game.
Stop advocating for casualing and ruining a genre just to make it accessible to shitters who don't give a damn about it to begin with.

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The people who can't be bothered to learn how to input a dragon punch will never be satisfied no matter how much you dumb down a game. If they can't learn how to perform a dragon punch, then they can't learn how to do combos, use system mechanics, learn to play the neutral game or learn matchups. Arc system works games all have alternative easy mode inputs with autocombos and stuff but for the casuals it's not enough, and to them it will never be enough.

>>386234264
>Have you considered to not play fighting games?

I played them for 10 years before I stopped. Not worth the time investment.

But that is entirely beside the point. This thread is literally about making fighting games more accessible without sacrificing depth, yet most people here are just going on about how fighting games are perfect the way they are.

For example, if you were in charge of your favorite fighting game series and the higher ups told you that your job was to do precisely this, make the series more accessible without sacrificing depth. Fail to do this and the series will be killed off and no more entries will ever be made. If you ignore trying to make it more accessible with this game it will be canceled.
That is the point of this thread, not you wanting to live in a bubble.

>>386234506
>You made no point, all you've said is "hurr i played fightan since 10 years", which means absolutely nothing.

I brought it up because the person I replied to said "casual babies who never played FG" you humongous fucking retard.
You cemented the fact that you're fucking retarded and not worth wasting time on, so I won't reply to you anymore.

>>386234516
This. Arcsys games even have god tier tutorials, especially if you expand it to games they just publish like Under Night, which the latest version of that goes as far as to teach you fucking option selects, but no, people aren't going to give a shit no matter how much effort the game puts in to make things easy on you or teach you how to play.

>>386234538
>Fail to do this and the series will be killed off and no more entries will ever be made
We had a good run, better to let a series die.

>>386234394
>accommodating balance changes to the game.
What you don't get is that by accommodating what you mean is reducing control and utility. A set time is always going to give people less chance to experiment than a motion.

>mindgames, predictions and strategy
It is really just pattern recognition, people put them on a pedestal though cause they can't do other stuff. Fighting games are just abstract rock, paper, scissors

>without requiring dozens of hours of practice
No it won't, are no input going to make it so you can easily recognize what to do in every situation? No, it really isn't so prepare to get in training and figure out the best way to punish everything.

>>386234516
>The people who can't be bothered to learn how to input a dragon punch will never be satisfied no matter how much you dumb down a game.

This is about the combos.

Fuck casuals.
They've got UFC games to dick around with.

>>386234790
>This is about the combos.
Wow you have to learn how the game's system works, how sad for you.

>>386234838
>Wow you have to learn how the game's system works, how sad for you.

This mentality is why fighting games are niche and why so many people don't bother. This often usually leads to fighting games and their communities dying off.
You're obviously fine with this.

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>>386232271
Not an argument

>>386234653
>I brought it up because the person I replied to said "casual babies who never played FG"
And you're an even bigger retard if you not only think that 10 years mean anything, especially since fighters were already greatly simplified since the mid 00, but you also think that the amount of time spent automatically equates how good you are. People already told you how much of a brainlet you are, get the fuck out, you have no idea what you're talking about.

>>386216471
All combos are can now be done with any timing. So if I hit 1 then 2 really fast it will come out as 1 and then 2 instead of just 1 because you had to wait and time 2 perfectly.

>>386234912
I want people to learn the game so they can actually have fun with it. Now more than ever there are resources both in and outside of the game itself so people can learn how to play, and online modes (dubious as the quality of the netcode can be) so people can practice against people of all skill levels.

>>386235157
>I want people to learn the game so they can actually have fun with it.

Which they will never do so long as fighting games remain the way they are now.

>>386234759
>No it won't, are no input going to make it so you can easily recognize what to do in every situation? No, it really isn't so prepare to get in training and figure out the best way to punish everything.
Why do you think mobas and moba style games blew up in popularity so hard? Cause they let people play that abstract rock paper scissors in a situation where just learning to throw rock didn't take dozens of ours of practice. And wouldn't you know it, when people didn't have to spend so much time practicing just to play the game at all, they were quite happy to spend all that time learning matchups, timing, numbers and all the other stuff in the game.

And now because I mentioned mobas, you (or maybe that other guy I ignored earlier) will reply just to call me stupid and casual and claim I'm trying to turn all fighting games into mainstream mobas when all I did was mention them as an example.

>>386218224
Seriously just seriously? Now I know not everyone should reach Daigo levels but when games take years of play to be competitive there is something wrong with that. I like the idea of dedicating time to get better at something instead of simplifying it, but come the fuck on, YEARS!?!?! I could understand months of practice to be pretty good, but years?

>>386235197
There is nothing wrong with fighting games the way they are now. The problem is with the people that refuse to put in a modicum of effort to learn a game despite them being constantly dumbed down and certain games having extensive tutorials. So it's not the games that are the problem, it's YOU, who would probably not even play the game if it was just a one button mashfest like you seem to want, that's the problem.

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>rts games are too hard we should make rts games easier to get into by making mircomanging one button and building bases automatic, now casual players can easily jump into the game and get to its core depth of strategy

this is how all you faggot casuals sound like if it was other games, go fucking get gud

>>386235294
The competitive scene is full of those people that have been putting in YEARS of play to get to where they are. No matter how much they dumb the genre down for your pea brain, you will NEVER catch up to their level with that mentality. You can get pretty good if you put months in and actually give a fuck about improving yourself, but it should never let you go win Evo like you seem to want.

>>386235252
>Why do you think mobas and moba style games blew up
A lot of reasons that don't help your point such as playing with a team, a small range of options, a lot of time not in direct confrontation etc. It is almost like a very different genre with a different appeal

>Cause they let people play that abstract rock paper scissors
No not really, I have never seen people really happy about the low level mind games in mobas. It isn't like they are punishing sweeps or anything like that, this is probably the worst comparison you have made.

>And now because
because you made a really poorly thought out point and couldn't respond to most of my post I'll call you stupid? Yes

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>>386235294
>Seriously just seriously? Now I know not everyone should reach Michelangelo levels but when painting take years of practice to be competitive there is something wrong with that. I like the idea of dedicating time to get better at something instead of simplifying it, but come the fuck on, YEARS!?!?! I could understand months of practice to be pretty good, but years?
>Seriously just seriously? Now I know not everyone should reach Paganini levels but when instruments take years of play to be competitive there is something wrong with that. I like the idea of dedicating time to get better at something instead of simplifying it, but come the fuck on, YEARS!?!?! I could understand months of practice to be pretty good, but years?
>Seriously just seriously? Now I know not everyone should reach Einstein levels but when science take years of study to be competitive there is something wrong with that. I like the idea of dedicating time to get better at something instead of simplifying it, but come the fuck on, YEARS!?!?! I could understand months of practice to be pretty good, but years?
Filthy fucking casual.

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>>386235252
Go jump into a game of dota and see how hard it is with no knowledge or practice, I bet you couldn't even figure out what stacking and pulling is or creep aggro with out hours of practice.

>>386235367
Lol its no surprise people don't want to play. Many games eventually run into low community meaning you are only playing the same autists over and over who kick your ass. It's like joining the football team in middle school and the only opponents you can find to play against is NFL teams. No shit eventually people will quit. There needs to be a group of people of similar skill growing together not just a noob thrown in with people who have played for years.

>>386235380
Which is why we have MOBA's now that are infinitely more popular and fun than RTS shit.

>>386235380
>shooters are too casual you should have to input the entire konami code on your controller within .25 seconds every time you want to shoot a bullet

this is how you faggot elitists sound

>>386232271
>>386234932
oh give it a rest you fucking babies you're shitting up the thread

>>386235197
What on earth would make you think dumbing down a game would make more people learn how to play the game? You can make it as easy as you want, it won't make random people be any more interested in investing serious time in to their competitive side. You're only hurting the dedicated fanbase by such a heavy change. People don't hate learning how to do a DP or QCF, people hate losing and "it's too hard" is an easy way out instead of admitting they're shit and have no desire to improve.
>>386235294
MOBA's are also a team game. The casual crowd loves anything with a social aspect. Fighting games are very social but it's a 1v1 fight so people will ignore them. When somebody can play with 3-5 of their friends consistently, they're more inclined to play. You have to go out of your way to find a community within FGC, and that's too much for people like that.

>>386235294
>but come the fuck on, YEARS!?!?!

Yes, years. If you ACTUALLY want to be good, and not just 'okay'.

Just being 'okay' will guarantee a loss when you go against more advanced players. Wouldn't you rather make them work for the win, instead of just letting them steamroll right the fuck over you?

>>386235626
Saying "well the only people online are unbeatable robots" is just sour grapes. Just admit you don't want to play the game, it's okay. There's no shame in being noncompetitive.

>>386235626
>Which is why we have MOBA's now that are infinitely more popular and fun than RTS shit.

But both of these genres are shit, and only proving >>386235380's point.

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>>386235294
>Seriously? Why can't I just become one of the greatest fighting game players ever in just a couple of months?!

Neck yourself, casual.

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I fucking hate really long, drawn out combos and block strings and I'm not a huge lab dude. I like going into training to understand moves and see what they can do but I'm not the type to drill out combos trying to commit them to muscle memory, so I just try to find characters that have low execution barriers or just, you know, find another game to play. There are too many goddamn games out there for you to just get hung up over one and complain about the genre as a whole. ALL of them take practice, there's no getting around that shit, but if you're playing a character or a game and if learning them feels like work rather than fun then you need to play someone or something else.

>>386235473
I don't care about EVO but I should be able to at least join lobbies and compete and not get immediately BTFO after months of practicing. I don't know why you guys sit around dick sucking the guys at EVO so much either its fucking pathetic.

>>386235583
Nice none of those even compare. Those are literally professions, not video games meant for fucking entertainment. No video game should take YEARS just to be decent at. It's absurd. Especially when these games have an online lifespan of like 3 months max.

>>386235676
>what is quake
shooters can be very skillbased and take time to get good at even shit like cod takes time to practice aiming, why the fuck should fighting games be basic?
>>386235608
see, mobas have a difficult learning curve

>>386235682
? I'm still in the thread discussing shit though PLUS it bumps the thread so no problemo my duderino.

>>386235749
Years is a little ridiculous unless we're talking actual professionals. It took old hats years to get good due to the limited resources. Lack of internet, no netplay, smaller player base, etc. People are actually getting good faster than ever now. Not to say you'll go from nothing to winning within 6 months, but within a year you could become a fundamentally sound player. There's no excuse for people to be bad these days if they have the desire to improve.

Lets say you are a new player

Game A is what all the big boys play

Game B is the game known as the easy game meant for new players


Which do you think most people would go for? Will they admit to being a shitter or try their luck at Game A. This is why these games fail, you can't make a game purposefully for shitrers cause they won't want it. You need something the better player will go for and then the new players will go for it.

>>386235608
I'm on your side here idiot. These people think a game is autoplaying itself unless every basic movement or ability you do requires a precise button combo and motion, but I used mobas as an example to show games can still have depth even if the method of controlling your character is simple.

>>386235891
Well anon, considering the thread is titled " Adding accessibility without removing depth", I'm kind of wondering why you're even if the thread if all you want to do is plant your feet and scream "no!" to every idea anyone has.

>>386235886
>Nice none of those even compare.
They do, anything takes years to get actually good, all of those are also harder than videogames.
>Those are literally professions
Two of those are literally recreative hobbies, playing videogames is also a profession by the way, especially since MOBA have been mentioned in this thread.
>No video game should take YEARS just to be decent at. It's absurd.
Spoken like a true casual babby
>waaaah why do I have to actually invest time in something to become really good at it.
This is why you'll never be anything more than a wageslave underachiever in your life.

>>386235886
>Getting BTFO after months of practice
You're probably just shit at learning then. It doesn't take a genius to understand why you're losing and then apply it to your gameplan. Read a few threads, watch some sets, then try it again with more knowledge

>>386236051
>unless every basic movement or ability you do requires a precise button combo and motion,
You've been told the opposite with your bad shooter analogy.

If complexity is lost somewhere it has to be replaced elsewhere, which ultimately means the game is not more accessible. More people can simply like certain genres

How about animated inputs for movelists?
So when you look at how to do a fireball, it gives a visual that you need to roll your thumb?
How about a tutorial that actually teaches fundamentals?

There's two things that can be done to add accessibility without neutering an entire genre.

>>386236051
>Moba
>"depth"

Thanks anon. I needed the laugh.

>Get Injustice 2
>Play through story
>Make an effort to learn the rythm of the game
>Suck at first, but figure put how to do easy but effective combos

The first time I've ever felt like I've accomplished something in this genre and had fun beyond wild mashing and doing 1HK Supermoves. Currently looking into GG and SFV and contemplating if I want to put more time in.

Just have fun playing the game, if you don't enjoy it, why play?

You don't even HAVE to get good, just enjoy whatever level you're at. If you want to be good but practicing is not fun, then the game isn't really fun for you, play something else. What kind of madman would try to get good at a game they don't enjoy playing?

>>386236096
It's because I have a successful life that I can't dedicate years to fucking playing a video game. And no they don't compare at all. You don't sit down to have 1on1 painting contests or instrument wars. Your fun with those hobbies isn't tied into how good you are either. Meanwhile in fighting games you have to be good or you will have 0 fun. It's a joke. Also no sorry kid video games are not a profession and never will be.

>>386216471
IMO I find that games having fewer buttons can add a lot of accessability. Having all characters have the same button inputs also helps a ton.

Smash Bros is the obvious example of this, with all characters being very different (except for clones) using the same inputs for normals and with specials having only some minor variances in execution at most.

I've been playing some Pocket Rumble lately and it uses only two buttons and the control stick. Specials are executed by holding diagnally downwards and pressing A or B, which gives four special moves, as well as strong and weak attacks for standing, crouching, and jumping. All eight characters are incredibly diverse and even though the movesets aren't too complex the game still has all it's spacing, mind games, etc.

I played Soul Calibur 2 for the first time in years and even though I've gotten really rusty, I'm surprised that I don't feel completely overwhelmed by the controls. Horizontal attack, vertical attack, and kick are the only attacking inputs (3 instead of the typical 6) with a block button, and while there are large command lists, moves are largely executed by directional input and not 30 kinds of control stick swivels. Everything feels natural based on the way you move the control stick.

Soul Calibur is the least accessible of the games I've just listed, but whenever I pick up Street Fighter 2 which I've played occasionally since I was a kid, I find that everything feels really strange and clunky, and I'm always getting my buttons mixed up. Now, I love fighting games mechanically but I'm actually quite shit at them, and maybe using a fightstick would be better for traditional fighters, but I think my point stands that reducing the number of buttons in a fighting game immediately reduces complexity without losing depth.

Look, first off, you need to somehow show or convince the player that they are improving or at least shown that they did something right every match so it doesn't feel like wasted effort. Give something to entice them to keep going. Anything to get past the medium level cause once a player reaches that they are more inclined to keep going and improve as opposed to a beginner who can't get past that level. And if some devs nees to change some classic aspects to figure this out then sure go for it.

Secondly, you just need an interesting and appealing cast of characters. Despite what Capcom believes now characters are the most important aspect of the genre. They are what you are going to see the most so you better make them appealing so even people who don't play the game but will comment and spread the word. I respect the efforts of Fantasy Strike, but those characters look rather forgettable.

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>>386229353
She has a smile move set but in return she has to play a RTS mini game in the middle of the fight.

Its like driving automatic instead of manual but now you have 2 sterling weals for each pair of car weals.

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>>386236409
>It's because I have a successful life that I can't dedicate years to fucking playing a video game.

Babby's upset now

>>386236258
>How about animated inputs for movelists?

Marvel Vs. Capcom 3 already did this, and the game suffered tragically because of it.

>figure put how to do easy but effective combos

This will not happen if the option to auto-combo is available. No casual will defer away from this.

>>386236409
>Meanwhile in fighting games you have to be good or you will have 0 fun
this mentality is self imposed and isn't true. The fact that you think that is why you can't have fun with them.
>Also no sorry kid video games are not a profession and never will be.
If they make money then their profession is Competitor. You sound like a very bitter person who wants the glory of being gud but won't git.

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>>386236409
>It's because I have a successful life that I can't dedicate years to fucking playing a video game
Oh yeah? I'm sure if you really had something like that you'd find a few hours in the weekend to play FG and get slowly better, kid.
>And no they don't compare at all. You don't sit down to have 1on1 painting contests or instrument wars
Except that if you want to get better or your shit to sell you're directly competing with other people, and if you want to play in a band you must learn how to play with other people.
>your fun with those hobbies isn't tied into how good you are either.
That tells an awful lot about yourself, where's the fun if you don't get better? You keep on sounding like an underachiever.
>no sorry kid video games are not a profession and never will be.
Right, tell that to all those professional SCII koreans who earn more than you'll ever do, kid.

You're a joke, you keep on proving you're a whiner with zero motivation whatsoever, not only in videogames but in life as well.

Gundam ExVs feels like a really accessible fighting game with a decent amount of depth. Inputs are easy, but neutral game and resource management are a lot more aggressive than most fighting games.

>>386236409
>It's because I have a successful life that I can't dedicate years to fucking playing a video game.

Then why are you so worried if this specific one isn't catered to you? Find one that is and enjoy what little game time you have. Stop ruining the experience for those not involved in your personal hangups.

auto combos is the lowest a fighting game can go before it becomes a Divekick

>>386236194
>which ultimately means the game is not more accessible
Except the fact that mobas are huge while fighting games are a niche constantly in and out of the hospital emergency room on the verge of dying proves that people have different tolerances to where and what kind of complexity they have to deal with.

If the basics of moving and doing your moves is simple, but the depth comes later with other factors, then lots of people will be willing to get into that game and devote lots of time to it. That's mobas.
If simple being able to do your moves is a brick wall in itself that requires hours upon hours of practice just to start playing the game at all then a lot less people are willing to go through that. That's fighters.

Hell lets use the most common hobby in all of human history, fucking sports. Anyone can pick up, thrown, kick or catch a ball. Anyone can do it, and countless people through history have played and enjoyed sports because of it. But just because anyone can pick it up and do the basics doesn't mean there isn't tons of depth and the possibility to spend years training and practicing to get into them at a higher level. If the balls in all sports were covered in spikes and could only be handled in a very specific way lest you stab yourself in the hand and you had to train for years before you were even able to hold one, sports woldn't have gotten as big as they are now would they.

>>386236518
>Marvel Vs. Capcom 3 already did this
No it didn't?
>the game suffered tragically because of it.
MvC3 had a lot of problems. I highly doubt adding something as simple as animated inputs in a movelist would affect a game negatively.

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>>386231983
Bullet IS a grappler, or rather she is explicitly designed to be a rushdown/grappler hybrid. Also Serpentine Assault is fucking easy to do and the 1080 portion is at the end of it, it's a 3 part super. Setting the move up is another issue altogether but god damn it feels orgasmic to melt a nigga with that move.

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>be fightcuck
>spend years practicing complex inputs by yourself
>chad is already on the fast track to a highly successful career
>anon has watched over 500 animes and beaten his backlog of games in the time it took you you to memorize matchups
>at least your ready for evo
>drown in pools
>everybody abandons your game 2 weeks after launch
>forced to play the latest SF
>nerdy gooks and nigger faggots are the idols you inspire to become

the absolute state of the fgc

>>386236798
>Except the fact that mobas are huge
That just means more people like the genre. You've just made the assumption something must be dumbed down to have mass appeal. When in fact mobas are incredibly hard to get into

>people have different tolerances
And not everyone has to like everything which the continued failure of accessible fighters proves. FS is failing on fig, divekick came to nothing, pocket fighter has no scene and rising thunder has been awol for years and likely just another project devoured by riot.

>constantly in and out of the hospital emergency room on the verge of dying
Already been proved wrong this thread.

>If the basics of moving and doing your moves is simple, but the depth comes later with other factors
And you haven't demonstrated a system for fighting games that works with this and it is clear you know fuck all about them in general. You can't even respond to those points.

>Hell lets use the most common hobby in all of human history, fucking sports.
A sport can be complex at the base, just because many are simple kick a ball does not mean everything has to be.

>>386236567
>git gud
Wow never heard that before.
>>386236639
Not worried at all. It's just ridiculous a fucking video game meant for ENTERTAINMENT takes years of playtime to actually be good.

>>386236624
>armchair psychology
Have to laugh when idiots on 4chan do this.

I support the extensive single player idea

People want to have fun from the get go
One of the funnest experiences is playing fightans with your shitter friends with you being a shitter yourself and then both of you starts getting gradually better equally

When you get thrown in to get ass ravaged by veterans in online people will measure whether its worth rheir time or not to git gud
And 9/10 times they will look at the barebones singleplayer, training mode that dont properly simulates player play and see the absolutely toxic multiplayer and they just will judge that its not worth their time investment

>>386236806
>No it didn't

Yes it didn't. Removing button function from MvC1 to MvC2 was a pain in the ass but still very manageable. Furthering the dumbing down of the attack system AND adding the auto-move button made it effectively unplayable to all who were not JUST getting into a fighting game.

And then it sold like ass, and disappeared for a long while.

I should be excited that a new one is coming out BUT

>Marvel Cinematic Universe focus
>No X-men characters
>Button scheme will probably be devolved into two-button attack scheme with buttons dedicated to auto-supers and auto-combos

I'm not comfortable with the direction it's going, when you compare history to current progress.

>>386237194
NRS games do that and their competitive scene does quick, too much single player means everyone will stick to that. Meanwhile Overwatch had none and is a huge hit

>When you get thrown in to get ass ravaged by veterans
Point me to anything but some dead anime game where this happens

>>386236798
>If simple being able to do your moves is a brick wall
That's where your entire point falls miserably.
It's not hard, you casual shitters still try to pass off inputs as the hardest part in the game, it's not, inputs are the least of your problems.
Just because (You) have the manual skills and coordination of an epileptic iguana with labyrinthitis doesn't mean the inputs are hard.
>>386237175
>Oh man, how can a videogame be actually hard to learn
>How can something meant for entertainment like music, sport or other arts be hard to learn omg!!!1!!!1
I might be an armchair psychologist but you keep proving me right with each of your posts.

>>386237175
>Not worried at all. It's just ridiculous a fucking video game meant for ENTERTAINMENT takes years of playtime to actually be good.

Stop worrying so much about losing, and the act of PLAYING the game will be more rewarding.

That's where you keep going wrong in this entire scenario.

>Want to play game
>Want to win
>Don't want to practice
>Always lose
>Get mad at game instead of changing own strategies

No matter how you look at it, ur doin it rong.

>>386232371
Samurai Showdown 5

>>386216471
Why the fuck would you want to buy a gimped fighting game?

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>>386237253
Bruh, go back and read what I actually wrote. This whole rant was unnecessary because it has nothing to do with what I said.
What I actually fucking said was to take this
<
and animate it. Christ, chill the fuck out king autismo.

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>>386237142
I don't think it's as simple as "people just like different things". Fighting games could be much bigger than they are.

Mobas have a difficulty curve. Fighting games have a cliff. If someone could make a good fighter with a curve like that it could be a huge hit. No I'm not calling for every fighter in the world to be forcibly made easier, i'm just trying to discuss the fucking topic of the thread. But much like fighting games themselves, arguing with fighting players is a sheer cliff.
>"No. Shut up you suck" - every response to every suggestion in this thread

>>386237317
Street fighter

>>386216471
Fighting games are accessible enough as it is.
Newbies need to stop being fucking babies and expecting to do infinite combo counters just by mashing on the buttons.

How the fuck would a black belt karate master feel if I get matched up against him because I complained that doing high kicks are too hard for me

>>386237732
>I don't think
well that much is clear

>Fighting games could be much bigger than they are.
That is mostly down to SFV being a bad game, but even with that >>386232163 . Lots of new games and interest

>Mobas have a difficulty curve. Fighting games have a cliff.
I can just say the same back. Trying showing a random person a moba and see if they know exactly what to do, I think hit the other guy is way more intuitive. As many have said inputs are not as hard to learn as you make out and new players are no required to play optimally from the get go.

But you can't even argue your point and spend more time crying fighting game players are mean

>>386237732
>Fighting games could be much bigger than they are.
No, they would not, this is the same problem genres like SHMUPs or RPGs have, some genres are simply not for everyone.
This is why SHMUPs are dead and the only successful "RPGs" aren't RPGs but either glorified action games wih mediocre combat or linear movies with bad turn based combat.

>>386237732
Gundam Versus has such a simple system that casuals can get into the game. Every move you have is presented and easily used. The core of the game is based on your movement and not inputting combo's that require quite a bit of time practicing depending on the game. Smash is another example. All moves are easily used and it focuses on movement. Fighting games to be popular need to remove the combo input barrier and play up the judgment. movement, and mind games aspect.

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>>386236409
>video games are not a profession and never will be.
And the first year on this is when he first began playing. This is FGC, too, where payouts are pretty much the lowest of the big eSports. Not to mention other revenue sources like streaming, sponsorships, or eventually getting a job with the developers like Combofiend and 16-Bit. Hell, on a local level it's viable too. I know a guy who goes to all of our weekly tournaments and gets 1st. He makes enough per month to pay off all utilities + car payment. Just by being good enough.

>>386216471
Holy fuck that chick from fantasy strike is the hottest piece of ass I've ever seen, I have no clue what it is about her but holy shit.

I'm glad it's a 3d model, hopefully the game gets popular enough to warrant some sfm stuff.

>>386238045
Probably not as bad as a beginner would feel if he tries to learn karate, and any time he wants to spar the only available matches are against black belt masters.

I have a feeling its not because of difficulty that fighting games are dead
for example arena shooters are not as complex as fightan but they are deader than them and rts games are really really complex but they are played more than fighting games not talking about competitive. Age of empire 2 hd has like more players than all fighting games on steam combined and not even considering voobly. also obscure communities like iccup faforever (supreme commander) and cnc.net has more players than obscure fighting game communities fightcade, tekken kaillera and discords I think like melty.
Why is that

>>386216697
he's not completely blind, only legally, which just means his vision is bad enough he can't operate a motor vehicle

he can easily see blobs on the screen, which if you know your character is plenty enough to compete at the level he plays at

>>386238186
Chris G used to pay his rent by sweeping weeklies when MvC3 was huge.
Goddamn I wish I could live a life like that. So good, you literally play fighting games to pay the bills.

>people still complaining execution being too difficult
>while SFV exists
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTgMaUYi3T8
You shitters didn't even try to learn

>>386216471
Your ideas are retarded.
Guilty Gear does this fine with easy character and hard characters.
Allow people to map their own special input if you want.

>>386238241
>you joined esports because you idolized some player
>every time you want to practice, you can only fight against that player
Hmm pretty sure that beginner would love having to spar against black belt master if wanting to be like them was his reason for joining in the first place

>hey gais
>i wanna play basketball with the big boys
>but can we remove the penalty for not dribbling the ball?
>its so hard to do that when the other guy is all up in my face and im trying to run too
>and practicing is for nerds, i wanna shoot all the time like lebron and curry. who cares about basics yasss
>hahaha so when do i join the nba

>>386238336
These threads are always just full of excuses. It doesn't matter what you do. It doesn't matter how hard you rape an established series. It doesn't matter what mental gymnastics you try to navigate, casuals will always have some excuse as to why they'll never ever play fighting games.

because excuses are easier than gitting gud.

Fighting games are pretty fun.

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>>386238693
YOU TAKE THAT BACK YOU FUCKER

>>386238530
This whole greentext just sounds like a woman.
Through and through. Can we just start calling casuals ladies instead?

>>386238530
Not if "sparring" consists of them beating your ass mercilessly over and over without actually talking to your or trying to help you learn anything. Which is what it's like for any new fighting game player trying to learn by playing online.

Or you know, you can just characterize everyone who hasn't been playing them for decades since the arcade days as a dumb child who must be obssessed with esports and never get any new players in your genre ever.

>>386216471
Lessen the importance of combos. If you can get a good solid hit in, that should be the majority of the damage. You shouldn't need to bust out a memorised ten hit combo every time. IMO that's the biggest execution barrier for most people.

>>386238241
Unless you're trying to get into some obscure anime fighter, there should be tons of beginners around in popular fighting games.
There's a legion of Ken scrubs trying to DP their way through lower ranks in SFV. And stuff like Tekken typically has tons of newbies all the way through the games lifecycle.
The only way you're going to get your ass kicked online from the start is if you have no grasp of the basic fundamentals of the game.
This has nothing to do with fighting games being too difficult, and everything with your own refusal to learn.

>b-but it takes years to learn that
The only thing you need to know when starting out in lower ranks is how to block and punish effectively. Everything else comes natural as you progress as a player.

>>386238939
any new fighting game player trying to learn by playing online.

This is why matchmaking exists? Almost any fighting game allows you to filter out opponents that are above your skill level.

>>386238253
It's because fighting games get a lot of streamer presence and they're much more fun to watch than to play.

>>386237679
Ahh I see. Apologies. I read your initial "animated" as "automated".

That said: I personally don't see what good animating the motion will do. It's pretty self explanatory what the image you posted explains. If people can't figure that out, I don't think they would do very well in a game that requires twitch reactions.

But I could be wrong. Maybe some brand-spankin' new player who has never played a FG before will have no clue what it means and need to be taught the absolute basics from within the game.

You know, instead of just watching some YouTube videos about basic FG mechanics.

Oop wait, I'm sorry, studying is wrong. Got it. Animations in-game it is.

>>386239081
Lol this doesn't work. There are people who never rank up and the community is so small often that matchmaking simply will not find you a proper match forcing you to go into a lobby.

>>386239458
>Lol this doesn't work.
Works just fine for plenty of people. Must not work for you because it doesn't fit your excuse.
>There are people who never rank up and the community
Like the people here who refuse to put any effort into learning the game? Sounds like a perfect match to be honest.
>the community is so small often that matchmaking simply will not find you a proper match forcing you to go into a lobby.
Which community are we talking about? SFV, Tekken 7, and even GG still have communities with plenty of players.
Or you could even go to an online community and socialize with people who actually play and find a better rival than you eve would with randoms online.
But that'd require actual work and not excuses.

>>386238939
>Not if "sparring" consists of them beating your ass mercilessly over and over without actually talking to your or trying to help you learn anything

If you jumped online to 'spar' with someone, without first reaching out to them that "hey I'd like some pointers, can you help me out?", then the 'spar' is a real-deal 'fight' and the opponent has no reason to interact with you verbally unless it's to mentally tear you down.

In other words: if you didn't specifically ask, they have zero obligation to help you.

>>386238180
Everyone says that the reason Smash had widespread casual appeal was the ease of attack inputs but that's only a fraction of it. It's also just more comfortable to play.

Like, moving around is much more fluid and responsive. There's a lot more play space. It's got actual "level design" where that movement comes into play. They used Smash's movement mechanics to turn the story mode of the third one into literally a metroidvania; even if you wanted to, you couldn't ever hope to do that shit with Guilty Gear without completely reconstructing it.

Smash also has a lot of party elements; 4-play free for alls, goofy weapons, stage hazards, that smash orb thing (if that's still around in 4). The white-knuckle, bated-breath experience of using all your air jumps to try and grab the edge. That's something 4-5 people sitting around a tv can laugh together about. That experience doesn't exist for fighting games. Fighting games are all shit-pushing-in business. If you aren't GOOD, you aren't having FUN, because nothing about the game is actually enjoyable outside the rush of achieving a difficult feat to conquer an opponent. There's no initial tactile joy of the moment-to-moment play; there's no reason to just dick around because it doesn't really feel good to do.

A lot of people ITT are talking about how FG need good single player content to teach you how to play; why not just good single player content? Why not focus on making the game fun to play on its own, before worrying about how to make it fun to play at a competitive level? Because ANYTHING can be fun if it's highly competitive. You could enjoy cup stacking just as much as SFV if you were a top-tier player, but that doesn't mean it's an experience worth annual payments of $49.99 + DLC.

>>386239832
Didn't read the majority of your post cause TL;DR, but competitive play is at the front of developer's minds when making FGs because the people who play the genre competitively are the ones who actually keep the genre alive past the first year the game is out. Plain and simple.

I agree that FGs need more single-player content, but balance and competitive play is and should be the most important aspect of a fighting game's development, right next to its netcode.

Soul Calibur 3 has AMAZING single player content. But it got no balance testing, the game was a broken mess with balance issues all over the place. Now nobody talks about. The casuals who bought it for the content and the pros who bought it for the competition

>>386216471
>How would you make fighting games more accessible without removing depth, /v/?
You don't
Fighting game are already accessible, most of the kid in the arcade down my street are playing it without any problem
People who want fighting game to be easier are the ones who never fought to keep your right to play, fighting games should have stayed in the arcades

>>386240091
But that's self-fulfilling. The only reason fighting games are "kept alive by competitive" is because they suck to play, and the only fun thing about them IS competitive play. If instead they started from a fun, satisfying game with mechanics that could be enjoyed for their own sake, and THEN took a look at competitve play, you wouldn't have the issue of the active community being the only thing keeping the game breathing.

>>386239832
>you couldn't ever hope to do that shit with Guilty Gear without completely reconstructing it.
>What is Judgment/Isuka
Stopped reading there

Why is it the people who know the least are the ones with the most ideas on how to "fix" a fighting game? Is this the freddy-krueger effect in action?

Nothing's wrong with being shit at a game, nobody is good at every type of game and sport out there. But fighting games uniquely have that special type of scrub rage, maybe because it looks easy when two good players play? Like many people said in this thread, combos and special moves are the "easy" part, there's so much more to the game and even thinking that combos and shoryukens are too hard means you're not even close to knowing that.

>>386240409

This is begging for someone to play the game once, finish it, set it down, and never look at it again.

>If instead they started from a fun, satisfying game with mechanics that could be enjoyed for their own sake

Why is it such a sin to enjoy being competitive for it's own sake? Just curious.

>>386240637
Isuka tried, and it was a clusterfuck (really? A turn-around button?) that was unfun. Judgment, like Overture, "completely reconstructed" the game by chopping out half the buttons and moves. Which was sort of my point: either you completely redo GG's mechanics, or it would play fucking terribly in any kind of scenario external to a narrow, flat box where two characters fight.

>>386222707
What's the source of the hentai at the beginning of the gif?

>>386241008
>completely reconstructed" the game by chopping out half the buttons and moves
It didn't, all of the moves are there but the inputs are different and the characters play more like their EX version, it's been some time but I think a few characters actually even got new moves, like Bridget or Zappa.

>>386240725
>Why is it such a sin to enjoy being competitive for it's own sake? Just curious
It's not, but there are plenty of things you can get into for the sake of being competitive that are cheaper and also more fun than fighting games. (Fair) competition can make literally anything in the world exciting.

Fighting games could stand to be good video games too, instead of just vessels for the competitive urge in people who get winded playing basketball.

>>386216471
>combo combo combo combo combo

You know how I know most of you don't even play fighting games?

>>386241171
It goes from 5 attack inputs to 3 and adds a jump button. That is a fundamental reconstruction of the game. Not even a BAD one, mind you, and Xrd would probably be a more fun fighting game if it handled more like judgment, but then it'd also be a more fun fighting game if it handled more like Overture.

Fighting games need better community options. Let players make custom combo trials or missions, online training should be standard, let players make their own tutorial videos and have the game display them on the main menu, have beginner only leagues and tournaments like Japan does, hell even have archives for majors easily accessible to everyone.

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>>386216471
It's pretty easy to do. Combine what Killer Instinct did with what Guilty Gear did.

Guilty Gear did an AMAZING tutorial. One that explains literally every single mechanic and nuance, matchup knowledge, an extensive tutorial about all the buttons, even an in-game FAQ.

Killer Instinct has a great tutorial too, but they also have an option called "auto-combo" where the game basically does the combos for you while you're pressing buttons. The downside is that they're not always the optimal combos and become predictable and easily countered, BUT for novices and casual play, it's perfectly fine.

These are really all that's needed for more accessibility. I think SFV went overboard with buffering on commands, but I do like how they simplified the command motions themselves. I think Guilty Gear does it best though.

>>386241304
>(Fair)

By definition, anything that is competitive will eventually reach a point where all of the 'fairness' resides in the high number of people who are very skilled at the game, leaving all of the people who are not so skilled with an 'unfair' disadvantage.

Why would you cut down the people who have put the time and effort into being good at the thing they enjoy, making it 'fair', solely to satisfy the whines of those who haven't worked as hard?

That seems counter-intuitive if you are trying to build a thriving community, especially when, even when you forcefully level everything out, the skilled people who stick around will now dish out more punishment to those are not so skilled.

They will get bored because "I keep winning, there is no challenge" and leave, AND those who got stomped cry "this shit's broken, I'm still losing", break their controller in a rage, drop the game, and THEY leave as well.

How does that keep the genre going at all?

Just make better tutorials that highlights important keyframes so casuals can see them clearly and learn their timing.

Add a good single player mode like Soul Calibur 2 and 3 had. I loved those games and I despise fighting games.

>>386235886
then git gud, no ammount of babying features wont give you good fundamentals

>waaah I just bought these golf clubs why does it take years to get as good as tiger woods??

Kill yourself

>>386241825
Not my point at all. I'm just saying as long as the competition is balanced, it will be fun. Stacking cups is fun if you get competitive about it. Jogging. Cooking spaghetti. Paper football. Stamp collecting. Knitting. Literally ANY hobby in the world, if you make a fair/even competition from it, can be fun for a competitive person.

So what the fuck makes SFV so special? Why does it get a pass on its unengaging gameplay just because "competition" when there are PLENTY of games in other genres that are highly competitive and also actually fun to play? Nobody gives FPS games a pass if they have shitty mechanics just because "being competitive is fun". I don't see anyone singing the praises of Lawbreakers/Evolve/Battleborn/whatever just because it's fun to be competitive; they got rightly shredded to shit for being unfun in their own right, and unworthy of standing long enough for a competitive scene to develop.

But somehow fighters are exempt from this kind of criticism.

>>386216471
Deeper, better tutorials. Skullgirls was a step in the right direction, we need more of those

>>386242165
>git gud
>kill yourself

Is this all you fighting game losers can ever say when someone challenges your game? It's sad you wrap your whole life up into a fucking video game and get assmad when others suggest improvements.

>>386242429
>So what the fuck makes SFV so special?
What about SFV is unfair and not balanced? Most match ups are in the 5-5 range, a variety of characters make top 8 and win and it is the same players doing well because the game is fair and rewards a set of skills.

The game has issues but balance isn't really it.

Plus I disagree with this
>as the competition is balanced, it will be fun
Some of the most fun competitive fighting games are horribly busted

>>386225678
>FGC pro's
>Bullying anyone.

>>386242429
>So what the fuck makes SFV so special?
Nothing, SFV is universally considered a joke, people keep on playing it because it SF, not because it's a good game, it's also perfect for scrubs since it's a completely broken game.
>>386242797
People get mad because your "improvements" fundamentally ruin the games you still wouldn't play to begin with, we get mad because we care about the things we like, unlike you who think games should be designed around your mental deficiencies, if we don't like a game we don't play it, you instead want to change a game to cater to you when it would alienate the actual core audience of said game.
It's also funny how you call other people losers when you don't even have the balls to actually get good enough to not get bodied 24/7 online.

>>386243062
>FGC in general
>Bullying anyone

Every time I see a picture of an event it's all balding 250lb+ dudes.

>>386242934
The issues with SFV are on the game system, so the characters are just a symptom of the bigger issue of a simplified engine.

Sure you can make a game balanced by remove all moves and giving everyone one attack, but that would be a pretty crappy game. SFV leans towards that.

>>386243275
>Sure you can make a game balanced by remove all moves and giving everyone one attack, but that would be a pretty crappy game.

Divekick was pretty fun, though.

>>386242429

You're comparing mass online competition games to a game that focuses on 1v1 gameplay.

In a game like CoD for example, you can have 1000's of hours under your belt, be ranked one in team multiplayer or whatever, only to still get that unexpected loss from something that was completely out of your control (teammate lagged out, rifle didn't spawn, enemy used tactic different to what you were initially expecting, etc)

In a FG, there is generally none of that. Its you versus someone else.Your skill as a player versus their skill as a player. There is no one else to blame if you lose. That's why FG have both a positive AND negative air to it. It's exhilarating and fucking frustrating at the exact same time.

I don't know why SFV 'gets a pass' as you put it (I don't have a system to play it on, and comp is a potato). I'm speaking on some broader terms here. But I also see it IS getting criticism from both sides. New players like it, but gripe about the learning curve, and vets of the genre gripe it's sluggish and boring as fuck.

All I see is: this is a shining example of "when you try to please everyone, you effectively please no one."

>>386242934
I feel like you aren't reading a single fucking word I'm writing. At all.

I'm not saying SFV is imbalanced. I'm saying being balanced and competitive can make ANYTHING fun, so why do we give games that have shitty, boring mechanics that aren't engaging or enjoyable on a fundamental level some sort of free pass JUST for being balanced and competitive?

Why is it that all anyone ever talks about with regards to fighting games is competitive play and balance issues? How to make competitive play "more accessible" or how this character is "broken" or whatever? Nobody ever seems to step back and go "you know, if my internet connection went down, this game would be the most fucking boring piece of shit in my library" because the game itself is a big tedious pile of nothing that exists only as a conduit for the competitive meta that springs up around it.

I am proposing, and I'm gonna new-line this shit to make sure you see it:

Fighting games should first focus on being fun games to play. Then, once they ARE fun games to play, the competitive scene can follow from that.

Developers of fighters should ask themselves "if only one person was playing this game, could he have fun with it?" Because that's how a GAME works. The competitive meta is absolutely fun, but it can coalesce around ANY old fucking game. PUBG, Overwatch, DOTA, Smash, Pokemon, Starcraft, Quake, whatever. If you're only into the game for the thrill of the competitive community, you're not actually into the game.

>>386227794
You mean like Tekken 7, the new fighting game with no tutorial what's so ever? The game with numerous mechanics that are not explained anywhere in the game, not even in the manual?

>>386243462
>Fighting games should first focus on being fun games to play
They already are, maybe they're not the thing for you.
>If you're only into the game for the thrill of the competitive community, you're not actually into the game.
>If you're not into a competitive game for the competitive aspect you're not into the game
Go take a hike, your brain needs oxygen.

>>386216471
actually interesting and well thought out ideas OP. Actually impressed, i was expecting something much worse from this board. That being said i believe that would be very hard to balance around. Lets use SF4 as a base for these hypotheticals. Characters like T Hawk and Hakan rely almost entirely on their mix up for big damage. What links and combos they do have are usually very small (In T hawks case the input is usually just DP followed by condor dive) on the other hand we have characters like Akuma and E. Ryu. If you were on point with E. Ryus links you were already doing more damage than the better part of the cast, without meter even. A system like this would just give E. Ryu 80% damage meterless combos and T. Hawk like an extra 10% at best.

>>386243462
>I'm saying being balanced and competitive can make ANYTHING fun, so why do we give games that have shitty, boring mechanics that aren't engaging or enjoyable on a fundamental level some sort of free pass JUST for being balanced and competitive?

Because being boring and non-engaging is what is making them balanced.

If they were exciting and fun, they'd be subject to abuse, and the balance would be right out of the window.

See >>386242934
>Some of the most fun competitive fighting games are horribly busted

^ This anon got it right.

>>386243462
>I feel like you aren't reading a single fucking word I'm writing. At all.
I am, you just aren't making any sense

>l some sort of free pass
In what way has it got a free past? SFV has constantly been shat on. Are people not allowed to play a game in a franchise they like if they don't 100% love it and think it is the best? Cause even being shat on many like it to some degree. Plus they do play other games.

>Why is it that all anyone ever talks about with regards to fighting games is competitive play and balance issues
it isn't, and because that is the part that interests them.

>, this game would be the most fucking boring piece of shit
because it isn't true, even if you didn't have someone to play locally.

>Fighting games should first focus on being fun games to play.
They are, sounds like you don't like fighting games. This is like going to a chess competition and going YOU KNOW IF YOU LOST A PIECE IT WOULD BE REALLY BORING HUH MAYBE EVERYONE SHOULD QUIT

>Because that's how a GAME works.
Are you aware that some games are multiplayer focused and that is the point? are all MMOs bad and not real games?

>>386219836
what's it like being dumber than a nigger?

>>386243684
>actually interesting and well thought out ideas
Not a single one of those suggestions are either interesting or well thought out.
>>you get an x% damage bonus if you get a "perfect hit" (that is, by connecting an input as late as possible during a combo)
Defeats the point of delaying hits and relaxing inputs to begin with, removing a layer of strategy and character design.
>>also get the bonus for doing the "correct" special move input (i.e: f, d, df + P = dp)
Simply git gud at inputs, it's not a hard thing to do and you shouldn't be rewarded for doing BASIC stuff like hitting a fucking button.
>bonus hitstun after y number of perfect hits in a combo
Again, defeats the purpose of delaying and isn't any different from doing untechable combos, if anything it makes it even worse for people who complain about long untechable combo string because you give people even more of an incentive to make and grind long untechable combo strings
>a perfect hit would be represented by a hit spark of a different color (like pic related) and a different sound effect
Games like Soul Calibur already do it so it's a pointless argument to begin with, it also doesn't add anything.

All of these suggestions, as usual, come from people who don't like nor actually play FGs.
>>386244114
Sapes don't like FG, not a surprise.

You need to actually build the accessible option around your mechanics and systems. For example KI has the combo assist system. If you use it sure you get easier combos but it also locks off certain options for you and because of the combo breaker system you are put at a disadvantage against any player who really knows what they're doing.

>>386243462
Fighting games were originally designed to be played against another human being. AI will always have better reaction time to the point of being unbeatable depending on how they program it. Fucking Gill on hardest is a literal unfair nigger and that's not even lookin at his busted move set. Single player in a fighting game is a novelty. The real meat is against another human being and as someone that loves fightan, nothing brings me more joy than teaching scrubs at my local G2K how to play Tekken 7 and SFV.

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Already being done op, and it sucks dicks:

https://www.kotaku.com.au/2017/05/fantasy-strike-is-bringing-simplicity-to-fighting-esports/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxYPRB6W-0o

>>386244257
>you are put at a disadvantage against any player who really knows what they're doing.
So the same as if the system didn't exist at all

>>386243354
"was" you don't play it anymore huh. It was a short lived appeal.

>>386241043
Moonlight Lady (kao no nai tsuki dai) Episode 2

I found it using the saucenao app, which you can download here.

http://saucenao.com/tools/

>>386244369
Yeah I'm sure ST for retards is going to be a hit.

>>386244369
What a joke of a game.

>>386217972
Reminds me of all of the faggots in TF2 that would get mad as fuck if the enemy team had a pyro because they hated the idea of having to walk backwards. After hearing people talk like that I played literally nothing but Pyro until the days when the game turned to shit and I stopped playing.

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>>386216471
Let almost every character stand roundhouse into v-trigger for frame advantage on block and hitconfirms on hit. Better pause the game on activation so nobody has to react too. Actually you're better off not letting anyone react to stuff in general, because that rewards veterans for playing patiently. Just whatever makes it harder for old players to play a clean game will make it easier for newcomers to go ham. Make normals and projectiles worse too since newplayers often struggle with zoning first.

>>386246517
>make projectiles worse too since newplayers often struggle with zoning first.

Nope. Cause projectiles still move and you've gotta get out of the way of them to not get hit. Best to just remove projectiles all together.

Let's be honest, MOBAs also have a steep initial learning curve and that doesn't stop literally millions of people from playing them every day. Accessibility has nothing to do with it, fighting games are just shit.

If you want an actual reason it's probably because having to play and lose for years before you git gud is not fun at all, at least in MOBAs your personal skill isn't everything and you can always blame the loss on your team and move on.