So what WAS their endgame?

>>386067553
Imagine being in such a boring world with a bunch of retards roaming around. They just wanted a laugh or two.

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>>386067553
Break the cycle and let humanity forge a new age.

>>386067835
>heh Kaathe watch this
>I'm going to call the next person that walks up "the chose undead" and have him run to his death again
>it'll be funny this time I swear

>>386067553
They just wanted the flame to die out.

Kill the flame so that they can rule the world again.

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>>386068170
>>it'll be funny this time I swear

>>386067553
Is it just me or are the primordial serpents blatant Jewish caricatures in both appearance and purpose?

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>>386068490
>They just wanted the flame to die out.

But why were they pretending to be against one another? For what purpose did that serve them?

>>386069041
Hahahhaha holy shit

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>>386069041
>Is it just me or are the primordial serpents blatant Jewish caricatures in both appearance and purpose?

What makes you think that?

>>386067553
which one is Kaathe again?

We never see their tails. It's pretty obvious they're part of some Hydra creature.

We don't know their exact game. On the surface, both are lying to you in some manner. Frampt is telling you a half-true story so you can burn yourself and renew the flame for a bit. Kaathe is telling you half-truths, but fills in on the backstory a lot. He wants you to extinguish the flame but he seems to be lying that it will be some kind of humanity utopia.

>>386069954
The one after 4 Kings in the abyss. As someone burned out on Dark Souls, the serpents were my favorite part of the game. Something about their nature and lack of development in the story makes them really unnerving.

Greed fueled by jealousy for dragons.

>>386070030
>We never see their tails. It's pretty obvious they're part of some Hydra creature.
Kind of doubt it. Frampt above the lordvessal shows him coming down from the bonfire. If it was from a gigantic hydra down below somewhere in the abyss then that wouldn't make any sense.

They're the same snake.

bamp

Doesn't really matter what they wanted, they're dead by the time of Dark Souls 3.

>>386067553
They didn't have one. Mitsubishi is overrated.

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>>386070030
>We never see their tails. It's pretty obvious they're part of some Hydra creature.

I've long suspected the hydra's you actually face in the game, along with the even more interesting two-headed lizards found in darkroot basin, (along with the fact that in the dark lord ending, it's shown that both Kaate and Frampt were on the same side, and there were several other serpents just like them) was Miyazaki trying to subtly imply that they are, in fact, two heads of the same creature. Like those creatures were meant to be symbolic of what was actually going on with the serpents.

Actually, just noticed this now, but Dark Souls 2 appears to have gone even further with this multi-headed snake symbology. In that game, one of the bosses, the Flexile Sentry, is a creature with two distinctly reptilian heads (Pic related).

Really lights your bonfire.

One wanted to rule the age of fire, the other the age of dark.

>>386070030
>It's pretty obvious they're part of some Hydra creature.
There are statues of their bodies in DaS3. Also, Frampt's death animation reveals his shoulders.

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>Frampt is depicted with an angelic lower half in Lothric
>The Ringed City depicts what is presumably Kaathe with the lower half of a beast or dragon
>despite all the shit that happened in-universe in Dark Souls, fucking nobody knew what the actual bottom parts of the serpents looked like and went off of interpretation

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>>386073893

And then there's THIS.

they were jews

>>386073893
>>386074347
>>386070030
they actually look like dogs

We know what they wanted, though. We see the results of what they champion throughout each game.

All it came down to was that Frampt wanted to maintain the status quo of the world while Kaathe wanted to see it evolve and for humanity to take their place as rulers over the Gods.

We have two endings that show what Kaathe wanted between DaS1 and DaS3, and we see exactly what Frampt wanted in DaS1 as well. Did they have ulterior motives? Maybe. Frampt is pretty vague about what linking the fire entails, which is self-sacrifice, for obvious reasons, but there's no reason to believe past that he wanted anything more.

Kaathe we can confirm is not trying to ruse you with his desires, as he wishes for them to be continued on after he dies all the same.

Just cases of people thinking too far into this shit when what you see is what you get.

What if they are actually serpents?
Slithering down in a massive network of tunnels. Imagine how many there are down there.

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>>386074347
If shield art is anything to go by, the Watchdragon Parma from DaS2 clearly depicts two primordial serpents with separate tails.

Anyway it seems unlikely they're part of the same being when they have conflicting motives. All of the serpents want to find the dark lord and bring about the age of man, except for Frampt, who is betraying his kind by perpetuating the age of fire.

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>>386067553
They just wanted souls. Many many souls. Gahahahahah!

>>386070030
>It's pretty obvious they're part of some Hydra creature.

They are worms. kinda like worms. My theory is that they are a natural part of the world, kinda like it's natural for a rotting apple to have worms. and their end game is simply to bring about the end of the age of fire so they can transform.

>>386069041
No. Have you gone to the doctor recently to seen if you been infect with autism?

They're just trying to pass the time, have a laugh and a half at your expense.

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>>386069486
To polarize unrelated parties into picking a side, when both sides are made to lose. And then they win, by fucking off somewhere else after sowing chaos and watching the Bombs drop on the undead. And once the undead are gone, and they've taken everything with them on the way, the serpents can return as the "true kings" and shit.

>>386075000
>people who paint shields have any idea what the ass of a primordial serpent looks like

>>386075837
but what about the dark lord ending when you don't die and humanity thrives

>>386070030
I don't think they're necessarily the same creature, or at least, if they are, they have different heads with different brains and therefore different aims and goals.

Kaathe mentions that Frampt is a serpent who has "forgotten his purpose" or something like that. I'm pretty sure, being that they're called "primordial" serpents (primordial as in humans), that aiming to return the world to darkness is an inherent part of their nature or at least is inherently beneficial to them.

I think what happens at the ending is just Frampt returning to his senses and remembering his nature, then joining his kin.

>literally everyone assumes they are evil
What if they both legitimately want what's best for humanity and are both in the right but just don't know that a balance is needed?

>>386074267
post proof

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This is what they look like. Their purpose may have been to put events in motion. Not something in particular just make shit happen no matter what shit that is. There was one that baited Oolacile's people to dig up Manus and get rekt. And at the end they all pop up like the useless stooges they are probably to give council to the dark lord, because he is lord now and can make their shit happen. So in the end their motif probably was boredom.

>>386075837
Why would they want to be kings of Lordran? Fucking place was a shithole.

>>386067553
They want to start the age of dark considering the age of light fucked up the entire world. If the age of dark existed forever the world would be fine, but power greedy cucks like Gwyn ruined everything.

>>386076192
Buy the ringed city to see the statues :^)
They're right before Midir.
I would post a yt link for the serpent's death animation but I'm on mobile right now.

>>386076298
But what about the Lothric statues depicting them with wings?

>>386075298
t. Jew

>>386076485
Probably lied to the people that they were angels or some shit.

>>386070030
>>386073893
>>386074347
Aren't Kaathe and Frampt basically the world serpent from Norse mythology?

>>386076485
something about illegal angel worship

which was an incredibly interesting new lore aspect that was completely fucking ignored for the sake or fellating dark souls 1

>>386076298
Considering that the Ringed City has fallen to the abyss, would it be a safe assumption to believe that Kaathe was the one who taught the pygmies how to forge their weapons and armor by driving their humanity wild?

>>386067553
Get goyim to choose chaim or mordechai

>>386076485
Fair point. Probably the lothric statues depict what they think Frampt was, since he was Kingseeker. But the ones in ringed city are depicted by the pygmies and probably are from the beginning of the first age of fire when Gwyn was lord.

>>386076298
Their necks stretch longer than that, seems like just speculation as to what they really were rather than their true forms

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>>386074551
this

>>386076592
Basically.

People get so caught up in the "fire vs. dark" thing that they forget that Dark Souls pulls a metric fuckton of it's inspiration from Norse mythology, taking it wholecloth in some places. You can actually gain a lot of insight into dark souls by learning about the origin of many of it's aspects.

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>>386075980
That's you giving them both the finger by doing what neither wanted.
>>386076335
That's why they send you to janitor all the shitters

>>386076579
>>386076634
What are the angels anyways?
Because I thought that the Pilgrim butterflies were the angels, but apparently they are something else according to TRC.

>>386076940
Their necks could have been 30 kilometers long and their body 1 why would anyone depict the same body-neck ratio on 10.000 statues throughout the city? It is clearly something very close to the real thing. That's why Miyazaki put it at the last DLC of the last game and in the most ancient city we have been in the world of Dark Souls.

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Yall can complain about dark souls 2 all you want but you can't deny that this game had the best kitter

>>386067972
Dont get hit.

>>386076992
You mean everyone should read Berserk?

>>386076992
The whole fire thing is literally yule log tradition

>>386067553
>So what WAS their endgame?
It doesn't matter. Whether its Frampts firelinking or Kaathe's dark lord, both plans were doomed to failure from the start.
Breaking the cycle broke the world. Only by surrendering to the natural progression of things can the world be returned to some measure of normalcy.

>>386076876
There is no direct evidence that suggests that Lothric had contact with Frampt. There is the very indirect inference we could make that since Lothric is a kingdom dedicated to linking the fire, Frampt influenced them to do so, and that does kind of make sense in a dichotomous way with my next point. The statues you are referring to are actually most likely Kaathe. They're only found in and after the Grand Achieves which was the domain of the Prince of lothric, who very obviously does not want to link the fire, and I believe its stated somewhere that Kaathe guided him down this path.
I think it was actually Sullyvahn who guided him but Kaathe gave the idea to him or something like that, Kaathe is actually somewhere in there, I just don't remember exactly where.

>>386070030
I was under the impression that Kaathe was Frampt's tail, and vice versa

>>386077332
The angels are a literal miracle, unrelated to the pilgrim butterflies (until the DLC2 angels came along which is another story). Someone mysteriously came along and gave some princess the wonderful stories of the angels, and how prayer to them grants power, wisdom, and general fortune. It's never explained who gave her the stories of the angles or if they were true, but she and every other follower of the angels were severely punished, yet their faith remained somehow rewarded, despite the fact that they took away the princess' sight so she coudln't even read them.

This may actually be inherently related to the pilgrim's, as they become the "anchors" of the angels that fire those homing light spears at you in the DLC2. It's entirely possible that the nature of the pilgrim's were forseen or given by the serpents, which then gave that princess the miracles, which would make sense considering the statues in Lothric castle depict the serpents as angels. Due to teh fact that the miracles altered the nature of humans, they might have even altered the nature of the pilgrims over time. Maybe the powerful, reality warping qualities of the angelic miracles were why the worship of them was met with such serious punishment.

>>386069486
Divide and conquer

>>386077997
>until the DLC2 angels came along which is another story
This is why I didn't really enjoy TRC.
They just throw a bunch of new stuff at you and give you little explanation for it all. In contrast, most other souls dlcs are rather self-contained storywise or they do clear up some main game loose ends.

>>386077906
I didn't mean anyone in Lothric had contact with Frampt. Just that they new from history books or something that Frampt was the Kingseeker and that's why he has the body of something angelic. Furthermore, I don't recall anything to do with the serpents in the game besides the statues. And about the twin brats. I think lothric is simply a wimp, always letting his bro do the work, killing the demon prince and fighting us. He may be just afraid of the end.

>>386078372
At least they finally gave the fanbase closure on Gwyn's relationship to the pygmy, a question no one cared enough to ask.

Their motives don't matter because they were NEVER expanded on after the first game. They're slightly alluded to in 3 then that's it

Miyazaki doesn't give a shit about the lore or story, and neither should you

>>386077997
The winged knights of Lothric were the miracles. Through faith and devotion to their maiden (Who was the descendant of a goddess, mind you) they became actual goddamn angels.

My question is, what are the pilgrim butterflies if not the pilgrims? Its in the name. Not to mention that the Pilgrims are all very clearly headed to Lothric castle anyway, probably because they know shit is about to go down.

But then the dlc goes and says "No. THIS is what the pilgrims become, forget about those butterfly things."

So what the fuck do I believe? Are the pilgrim butterflies the bodies of undead pilgrims that continued on to their goal through sheer force of will? (which is actually Dark Souls as fuck, when you think about it) or are they the angels in the dlc because..... actually, why the fuck DID the pilgrims turn into those insectoid angel things in the dlc anyway?

>>386077686
That too.

>>386078529
>At least they finally gave the fanbase closure on Gwyn's relationship to the pygmy, a question no one cared enough to ask.
I preferred when gwyn's actions were morally ambiguous and subjected to personal interpretation rather than him turning out to be the bad guy all along.

>>386078798
Aren't the angels in the 2nd dlc illusionary projections that disappear when you kill that cocoon thing?
I'm pretty sure the butterflies are the real deal, not whatever was that thing in the dlc.

>>386078798
If you kill the pilgrim lady at the start of the dlc she asks to see an angel and one appears. So maybe the pilgrim's don't turn into angels but their faith makes angels manifest?

>play Dark Souls 3 expecting a closure to the Snakes
>all i get are statues easter eggs
What a slap in the face.

>>386079115
Actually this.
It kind of goes like this
>Londor Pilgrims, Ilusionary angels and butterfly cocoons, Pilgrim butterflies

>>386079609
Honestly, being a massive lorefag since the very first game, I reserved all judgement until after the final dlc.

Now having seen the final dlc, I feel fairly confident in saying that they don't really care about the lore that much, and more importantly, they never had a plan for it.

Which is fine, I suppose, its disappointing, but I can still appreciate what is there. Its just such a shame when you compare it to a game like Nier. The original Nier had a bunch of lore planned that never made it into the game, but was still very much canon and easily fit into the rest of the world. That lore was then put into a massive book of supplemental lore that explained a bunch of shit and tied everything together really nicely for the people interested without forcing it down the throats of the people who just wanted to play the game.
That is an example of devs who care about lore, but the From team hasn't put together anything even close to that.

I dunno why I'm rambling. I guess I just wish that the devs put as much thought and care into their work as people like me do.

>>386080418
From's not really great at doing sequels really.

>>386080418
Don't worry, i get you.
My thing with the Snakes is just that they're extremely fundamental to these games. They are on par with Gwyn in terms of importance. And yet, we have absolutely nothing on them.
The headcanon i had since the first game barely had opportunity to evolve. It makes me sad but, like you, i still enjoy the games. It just baffles me we couldn't meet them again. Just a few seconds, a corpse, anything....

>>386080418
it's not really disappointing
Dark Souls 1 was a "complete game", it never needed any sequels. Just like Bloodborne is a complete game.
The retards who keep asking for Bloodborne 2 would just get disappointed because the sequel would just introduce more ambiguous shit.

Miyazaki said multiple times in interviews that he never plans the story out, but for some reason people convinced themselves that he surely had a grand finale planned to this epic trilogy that would blow everyone away. When all they got was a couple references to the first game and a bit more info (by the way this was Miyazaki's first attempt at a sequel), they were disappointed for whatever reason.

>>386081303
I just wanted to see Gwynevere's big tits in 2017 graphics desu.
Fuck Miyazaki,

>>386080712
Because all of the sequels were forced by Bamco. Nobody at From wanted to make a sequel, and even the first dlc was never planned at the start

>>386081476
>even the first dlc was never planned at the start

Isn't the first dlc made almost exclusively of content that was intended to be in the main game but they ran out of time for?

>>386081390
>wanting them ruined with shit colors and making her a gross kind of greasy
I'm glad

>>386081576
yes
that guy is retarded

>>386081719
How am I retarded? Just because they were existing assets and concept designs doesn't mean they were going to be used until Bamco forced them to make a dlc

Miyazaki literally fucking said they never planned a dlc or a PC port until well into Dark Souls' lifespan because Bamco wanted them done. If you weren't a newfag p.cuck you'd know that

>>386082002
what the fuck does that have to do with anything, you retarded faggot?

The question was
>Isn't the first dlc made almost exclusively of content that was intended to be in the main game but they ran out of time for?
The answer is:
>Yes

Miyazaki never planned any DLC (newsflash: no dev ever plans for DLC in development - that's the publisher's job) - but when shit didn't make it into the main game, that's where it ended up.

>>386082191
kill yourself dumb shit

>>386075000
>separate tails
intertwined tho

>>386080418
a ton of thought was put into the lore that's actually in Dark Souls 1. but that thought includes conscious, intentional ambiguity about which, if any, of the posited scenarios is true. virtually everyone you talk to is a liar and there's not supposed to be a "canonical story," by design. this is even more obvious in Bloodborne

the absolute worst thing that can happen to a story like that is to pick it up where it ended and say "okay, now explain more." it retroactively makes the plot in the first game seem stupid, when in reality it was stupid to try to write an "expanded universe" for a concept that was never intended to have one

>>386082326
stay mad pleb

>>386075000
Isn't that one of the fan submitted designs from their contest? Doesn't mean anything

>>386074330
How do you know which is Kaathe and which is Frampt? Also

>depicts what is presumably Kaathe with the lower half of a beast or dragon
never seen this before, mind sharing a pic?

>>386083190
>>386076298

>>386076634
Dark souls 2 was bad for the lore. Best that it was forgotten

>>386084005
>the only interesting game in the series for lore
>durr dark souls 2 does everything wrong!!!!! mathewcucktosis said so!!!

>>386084265
>>386084005
Dark Souls 2 is irrelevant lore wise. It doesn't actually matter if you consider it or not.

>>386067553
Kaathe was trying to Jew you into inflicting the darkness std that got olacile onto lordran and probably beyond, frampt wanted you to preserve his and Gwyndolin's status quo of preserving the age of flame and the lie that the gods are totally still around but didn't tell you that meant you dying in the end.

>>386084626
Except it's not because it's quite literally canon and Dark Souls 3 continues on the path it laid
If the lore in 3 matters then so does the lore in 2

>>386085268
I'm not saying about being canon or not.
Doesn't matter if it's canon because the lore they present in 2 is completely ignored in 3. You can skip 2 entirely and all you lose is not understanding two irrelevant references in items description.